Ley Line Walkers & Psionics

[Deathknight69]

Hey guys,

How would Psionics (Minor) mesh with being a L.L.W. ??

Thx in advance,

D69

[say652]

Perfectly, major would wipe out most of the skill slots for a LLW.

[eliakon]

Perfectly, major would wipe out most of the skill slots for a LLW.

Not anymore.
As of RUE there is no penalty for psionics.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey guys,

How would Psionics (Minor) mesh with being a L.L.W. ??

Thx in advance,

D69

Nicely.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hey guys,

How would Psionics (Minor) mesh with being a L.L.W. ??

Thx in advance,

D69

Very nicely. They get a roll for random psychic abilities like anyone else.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Perfectly, major would wipe out most of the skill slots for a LLW.

As Elakon said, RUE removed penalties for being a major psychic. it's now merely a matter of random dice.

[Blue_Lion]

There is no issue with psi and magic as they use separate power pools. Several mages have both psi and magic and the only issue is tracking the two pools.
The psi roll to get minor is just something you can do on top of most classes.

[Willy Elektrix]

I have a question about random psionic powers. If a character is randomly a minor or major psionic, how many powers and how much ISP do they have?

The Arkon in SA2 have a high probability of random psychic powers, but no indicator of what those powers should be. I thought there was a chart for this in RUE, but I can’t seem find it.

[rem1093]

Don't most mages loose all their ISP? Or did that change?

[Daniel Stoker]

No, it's the other way around where the Pyschic classes typically had spent all their PPE to have their powers and ISP.


Daniel Stoker

[glitterboy2098]

personally i would prefer that mages not be able to get random psionics. their focus has been on developing their magical potential, which should supersede any psionic potential.

it also would make classes like the Mystic which do get both, more unique and significant.

but as currently written, there is nothing preventing it. and the loss of the penalties for having major psionics on the random chart makes it that much easier to abuse the combination.

[rem1093]

Thought that they both lost the others pool. Now I'll have to talk to one of our players, she just started playing as a Blade mage. See if GM will let her add them.

[Axelmania]

As of RUE there is no penalty for psionics.

Would you happen to know what the page is in Ultimate for starting with minor or major psionics so I can read up on this?

"Psychic Characters" on 138 and "Psionic Powers" on 164 don't appear to have them...

If we can't find these rules, then either you can't start with them at all, or else you'd have to rely on the reprinting of the RMB rules in Psyscape which does include the skill penalties.

As Elakon said, RUE removed penalties for being a major psychic. it's now merely a matter of random dice.

I would like to check what page you guys are talking about so I can consult whether the context appears to be intentional removal or omission due to space conservation.

[glitterboy2098]

page 289, Character Creation, under Step 4: Determine psionics.

for comparison, look at the old RMMB, pg 12, which is also step 4 of character creation.

in the RMB a major Psi has all his skill bonuses reduced by 1/2, and his "other skills" reduced by half as well.
the last bit of Step 5 over on Pg13 in the RMB defines "other skills" as meaning OCC related. (it says there are three types of skills. OCC skills, 'other' skills, and secondary skills. it then goes on to give specifics on OCC skills, OCC related skills, and secondary skills. seems pretty clear)

i suspect that they dropped it in RUE for a mix of space, people getting confused over how to implement it, and issues of balance with newer OCC's (which often had fewer OCC related skills and thus didn't really lose a lot)

[Axelmania]

page 289, Character Creation, under Step 4: Determine psionics.

for comparison, look at the old RMMB, pg 12, which is also step 4 of character creation.

Thanks for pointing this out. I believe it is plausible this was just removed for space considerations though. Page 289 mentions taking a peek at Psyscape, and Psyscape has the "OCC modification" notes on page 33. Those would still hold. Unless we're explicitly told that there is no longer a skill reduction for majors, I would not take the omitted re-mention of that as the erasure of the content's existence.

[eliakon]

page 289, Character Creation, under Step 4: Determine psionics.

for comparison, look at the old RMMB, pg 12, which is also step 4 of character creation.

Thanks for pointing this out. I believe it is plausible this was just removed for space considerations though. Page 289 mentions taking a peek at Psyscape, and Psyscape has the "OCC modification" notes on page 33. Those would still hold. Unless we're explicitly told that there is no longer a skill reduction for majors, I would not take the omitted re-mention of that as the erasure of the content's existence.

The character creation rules in RUE are the rules.
The rules tell us what the process for getting psi is.
If the rules don't include something, then that is not a rule.
That is how the rules WORK. They tell us what the rules are.

[Axelmania]

Rules in core books can be supplemented by additional rules in supplementary books. Psyscape is the go-to psionics book so it has additional rules on limiting skills to consider.

[eliakon]

Rules in core books can be supplemented by additional rules in supplementary books. Psyscape is the go-to psionics book so it has additional rules on limiting skills to consider.

Only if the book is a RUE version.
RMB/1st ed rules don't apply.

[Blue_Lion]

I have a question about random psionic powers. If a character is randomly a minor or major psionic, how many powers and how much ISP do they have?

The Arkon in SA2 have a high probability of random psychic powers, but no indicator of what those powers should be. I thought there was a chart for this in RUE, but I can’t seem find it.

Page 289 of RUE has the information you are asking about. It is the table you roll for random psi for most charters.

[Axelmania]

Has Psyscape had another print run since 2005?

Did they remove the major skill penalties?

[drewkitty ~..~]

In my opinion is that the removing of the skill penalties for being a major and minor psychic were a bad move, if you wanted a realistic rules set. This is because it removes the 'I spent TIME developing these powers' idea from the equation.

[ShadowLogan]

In my opinion is that the removing of the skill penalties for being a major and minor psychic were a bad move, if you wanted a realistic rules set. This is because it removes the 'I spent TIME developing these powers' idea from the equation.

Major Psychics DO get penalized in terms of skills as you described, but NOT Minor Psychics (Rifts Main Book, Palladium Fantasy 2E) as part of the standard character creation process (ignoring OCC/RCCs that handle it on their own).

I can agree on removing it from Majors in RUE was a bad move, but Minors haven't been penalized AFAIK (if ever as I don't have PF1E/R or other applicable settings). Granted I can also see why Palladium did it given that OCCs (and RCCs) that roll for Psychic level don't use those modifiers in the past (ex: Cyber-Knight), so for greater consistency seems a likely explanation.

[Axelmania]

I always figured cyberknights did get the skill penalties if their higher incidence of major psi were rolled.

Operators had a.higher.incidence of minor psi so no penalties. The downside being no major psi. Like TW they were higher tier minors with access to a super psi though. Even among majors, I Italy on the Mystic could get that, at a higher level.

[dreicunan]

The groups that I played with always scrapped the penalty anyways, specifically because the penalty was so uneven based on how many skills you got. We also found it kind of laughable that having a few extra psionic powers somehow magically made you worse at math or speaking or reading one's native language than someone of the same intelligence and class without psionic powers or with a few less. A strange attempt at "balance" in a game that can have a vagabond without super powers, a dragon hatchling, and an immortal demi-god mega-hero in the same party.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In my opinion is that the removing of the skill penalties for being a major and minor psychic were a bad move, if you wanted a realistic rules set. This is because it removes the 'I spent TIME developing these powers' idea from the equation.

Major Psychics DO get penalized in terms of skills as you described, but NOT Minor Psychics (Rifts Main Book, Palladium Fantasy 2E) as part of the standard character creation process (ignoring OCC/RCCs that handle it on their own).

I can agree on removing it from Majors in RUE was a bad move, but Minors haven't been penalized AFAIK (if ever as I don't have PF1E/R or other applicable settings). Granted I can also see why Palladium did it given that OCCs (and RCCs) that roll for Psychic level don't use those modifiers in the past (ex: Cyber-Knight), so for greater consistency seems a likely explanation.

I was talking about RUE, since you now about RUE WT did you start off your post with a disagreement??
It's like you didn't pick up on that that I have the RMB and was voicing my opinion that I didn't like the change that happened with RUE.

[13eowulf]

In Rifter 50 there is an official article for Chaos Earth that adds another option for psychic rolls, Latent Psionics. Personally I like the idea of Latent Psionics, and would add/allow it in Rifts, and it might be a good way to come down in the middle of "yes or no" to mages making the psi roll. Have them roll, but if the get major or minor limit them to the Latent Psi rules, then they still get something, but not actual psi powers, letting the Mystic classes shine there...
Not a rule, just a thought.

(Edit: By the book (RUE book specifically) a LLW can get major psi without skill penalty, but that has been adequately covered, with page references and everything, so now I am offering opinion and other options.)

[RockJock]

Chaos Earth lists psychics in character creation like RUE, with no skill penalty. These are meant to be "adult" characters just spontaneously gaining a handful of psychics when the world explodes. CE isn't Rifts, but I think it is supporting evidence that the newer view is minor/major psychics are a buff/add on to a character, or class.

[glitterboy2098]

it does represent a change from the old dynamic where greater powers meant more time spent practicing with those.. leading to weaker skills.

honestly i kinda hope that the Psychic Storm (or whatever it ends up being called) for Chaos Earth adds back some sort of penalties to reflect the "sudden and unknown nature" of psionics in CE. ideally something that could be adapted to Rifts to reflect the time devoted to practicing with the powers instead of practicing your skills.

[Shark_Force]

The groups that I played with always scrapped the penalty anyways, specifically because the penalty was so uneven based on how many skills you got. We also found it kind of laughable that having a few extra psionic powers somehow magically made you worse at math or speaking or reading one's native language than someone of the same intelligence and class without psionic powers or with a few less. A strange attempt at "balance" in a game that can have a vagabond without super powers, a dragon hatchling, and an immortal demi-god mega-hero in the same party.

it makes perfect sense if you presume that training psychic powers takes time, in much the same way that training skills takes time.

or, more specifically, if you presume that the main difference between major and minor psionic categories is that the major psionics character has worked to develop their talent in place of developing other things (specifically, skills), while a minor psionics character did not. certainly, we know that master psionic characters are noted as having worked to develop their psionic powers, and typically have fewer regular skills in their OCCs.

of course, the new version doesn't really support that interpretation, but it isn't like there was never a reasonable explanation for why you might have fewer skills. (the oddness of the number of lost skills being so wildly different is certainly something i'd consider odd, but just losing skills not so much).

[dreicunan]

The groups that I played with always scrapped the penalty anyways, specifically because the penalty was so uneven based on how many skills you got. We also found it kind of laughable that having a few extra psionic powers somehow magically made you worse at math or speaking or reading one's native language than someone of the same intelligence and class without psionic powers or with a few less. A strange attempt at "balance" in a game that can have a vagabond without super powers, a dragon hatchling, and an immortal demi-god mega-hero in the same party.

it makes perfect sense if you presume that training psychic powers takes time, in much the same way that training skills takes time.

or, more specifically, if you presume that the main difference between major and minor psionic categories is that the major psionics character has worked to develop their talent in place of developing other things (specifically, skills), while a minor psionics character did not. certainly, we know that master psionic characters are noted as having worked to develop their psionic powers, and typically have fewer regular skills in their OCCs.

of course, the new version doesn't really support that interpretation, but it isn't like there was never a reasonable explanation for why you might have fewer skills. (the oddness of the number of lost skills being so wildly different is certainly something i'd consider odd, but just losing skills not so much).

I should probably clarify: it wasn't the concept in itself, but the execution. That was why I cited those specific skills (native language, math), although I should have specified basic math to make it more clear. The idea that having 4-6 more powers than someone with minor meant ALL your OCC and OCC Related skill bonuses got halved, as though that extra effort to develop those powers took away from everything else equally, and that you ALSO lost half the OCC related skills, just seemed over the top, especially since this permanent sacrifice keeps affecting you but you have no more opportunity for growth on the psychic side of things (apart from a bit of ISP per level, IIRC).

We'd have objected much less to an idea like: for every two powers beyond the first two (what minor gets in RMB), sacrifice one OCC related skill.

[Axelmania]

Psyscape is not canon to the new dimension called Ultimate Rifts Earth, I guess, if we're ignoring that it reinforces the skill penalties just because, like many things, it was omitted from the Ultimate Edition for space.

Spells present in the Rifts Main Book / Federation of Magic / Book of Magic must also not exist in Ultimate Rifts Earth if they were not reprinted in Ultimate Edition. If a spell was not printed in Ultimate Edition, this means Siembieda was telling us that the spell is no longer canon.

Reminder to everyone that since the "2 ISP for sleep or rest" rule and "all psychics can meditate" rule is from the original Rifts, that per Rifts Ultimate Edition a psychic must spend a lesser psionic power on Meditation to be able to regenerate ISP.

This would mean that the usual minor psychics would be limited to 1 power (meditation is listed under sensitive/physical/healing), Crazies to 2 powers (RUE 55) and major psychics to 5 (mixed) or 7 (single category) other powers, in addition to meditation, if they opted for it (as I imagine most players would do when designing the character, if the necessity occurred to them)

It would be possible for psychics to abstain from selecting meditation, but that would mean they would have no obvious means of restoring ISP, like if you brought over the 'Restore ISP' power from Nightbane: Between the Shadows so that other psychics could help you, which would be pretty interesting.

One in-book example would be the 'Group Trance' power on RUE 179. It doesn't regenerate your ISP but does allow you to power your abilities using the ISP of others in the group. Given it is a super psionic power, of the Ultimate classs, that's only going to be a concern of Mind Melters (pg 151) and 4th/8th level Mystics (pg 119).

Mystics and Mind Melters both have plenty of lesser power selections at 1st level to be able to select Meditation though.

If you want to bring Mind Melters back up to their 12 per hour glory they had in Rifts originally, that would require allowing the selection of Super Psionics from Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition page 309, the "Advanced Trance State" power which costs 10 to activate lets you regenerate 12/hour, so after 2 hours (24-10=14) you have already surpassed basic meditation (12 per 2 hours) speeds.

That also has the benefit of doubling the rate of healing. You also hover, which can be bad if you don't want people to know your psychic, but good if there are rats scurrying about on the floors. The power also gives you the option of doing a stasis for 1/10 metabolism negating the need to eat or drink and requiring 1/10 the air and stopping toxins/drugs/disease until your meditation ends (by 6th level you can meditate a full 2 days which cures them) and it lets you sense danger.

This power would fit conceptually with Mystics too, and is more independent than relying on Group Trances with other psychics to power your abilities. Another huge benefit is since this is a super psionic power, if you were from Psyscape then a Mind Melter could select this as their super psionic power to receive double effect, which should let you regenerate 24 ISP per hour using it. Mystics can't do that since they're only major psychics.

Even if I had Group Trance I would still want to get normal Meditation though, because it costs 0 to use, so if you were down to 9 or fewer, using GT would not be an option. Plus if you only had 1 hour breaks to meditate, would only net you 2 ISP.

Dog Boys (pg 146) usually only get a single psychic sensitive power, but since they regenerate 2 per hour of activity and 12 per hour of sleep (which a Mind Melter apparently no longer does, unless you are open to inheriting the original Rifts rules, which conflicts with "if it's not in Ultimate it was intentionally left out" assumptions) they don't need it.

I believe it may be necessary for them to select the power to access the superior 12/hour rate listed without sleeping, thus the "rate as indicated under each psychic O.C.C., otherwise six" notation on RUE 165. If you got the hourly meditation rate listed under psychic OCCs for free then there would be no point in selecting the power.

Bursters (pg 141) have to select their initial 3 minor psionic powers from a list, which does not include Meditation, so they would not be able to select it until 3rd level.

For psychics who do not buy the meditation power and do not have a "per hour of activity" or "per hour of sleep" rate to fall back on to restore their base, an additional option exists via the Protection Circle: Superior spell on RUE 224. If they can manage the 20 PPE it costs to activate it, that will give them 10 ISP. Obviously the Mystic is the best-off in this respect since they have a large enough base to do that in one go, and can supplement their hourly rates with PPE drawn from ley lines or other people.

Since a Mind Melter has at most 8 points, they're obviously going to need to get help from someone else to do this.

RUE 227 mentions the Talisman spell on page 150 of the Book of Magic, so a mage could possibly lend you that. The initial 50 PPE charge is 2 potential activations of a protection circle (though if a Melter had 8, they would only need to draw 12 from the battery each time, allowing 4 possible activations) and 30 after a recharge (costing creator mage, Demon Lord or god 60) is 1 potential activation (or 2 if, as above, you supplement it with at least 5 PPE each time).

Since a Talisman can store 3 spells instead of 50/30 PPE, the option also exists to have it store the 3rd level spell Life Source (FoM 132, BoM 97). It is intended to provide PPE for spellcasting, but I think it would remain within the spirit to allow PPE generated from it to power a protection circle.

The damage it does to you can't be healed with bio-regeneration or magic, but I can't see anything preventing other psychics from using healing touch / increased healing to help.

Of course, to compete with a 30 PPE battery, you'd need to be able to get more than 10 PPE per go. Since it inflicts penalties for an unknown duration (I would figure they should go away when you heal the damage, but it doesn't say that) if you reach 10 SDC or 5 HP, that means (for 8 SDC and 4 HP) you can only get 8 PPE from it before incurring penalties.

A third trick would be a techno-wizard device that can store PPE (RUE 131) where they could pump in 5 PPE, rest or sleep an hour, repeat 4 times.

Interesting, when RUE 186 mentions this, the wording is broad enough that you might be able to weedle this into an interpretation of how to regain ISP without meditation...

Like psionic I.S.P., the loss of P.P.E. points is temporary, and they will replenish themselves naturally at a rate of about five points for every hour of rest or sleep (or as indicated under the specific O.C.C.)

I'm pretty sure "they" and "themselves" is intended just to refer to PPE points and not both ISP and PPE, but given the glaring absence of ISP regeneration without the meditation power for the Minor/Major/Mystic/Melter someone who really wanted to give them a power boost could opt to interpret this as referring to both, to give a 5 per hour of rest/sleep rate.

That would still retain incentive to select the Meditation power, since that would increase it to 6 per hour if you meditated.

Arguably, since meditation can be viewed as a form of rest, you could add them together to get 11 per hour.

Lack of ISP regeneration wouldn't be utterly crippling if a minor psychic opted to not select meditation. There's a couple mitigators for sensitives:

Someone with Astral Projection can go to the Astral Plane, which is populated by creatures from the Nightbane RPG who would have access to the Restore ISP power to help you out, and plenty of time to do so.

Someone with Sense Evil (RUE 176) works without spending ISP, ISP is only spend to get a clearer picture.

Someone with Telepathy (RUE 177) is open to access with longer-range 2-way communications. It doesn't clearly say that both telepaths need to spend ISP to do this, so it might well allow a Telepath at 0 ISP to have a telepathic conversation so long as the other Telepath spends the ISP to activate the channel.

Plus, if a Mystic or Mind Melter didn't have a means of regenerating ISP, might as well get Mind-Block Auto-Defense and sacrifice some of their base in exchange for not having any activation cost.

Minor/Major Psychics who don't start out with meditation and don't get new powers as they increase in experience levels would be unique candidates for Coalition States Psi-Implants. Since meditation is now a power under all 3 lesser categories (when Nightbane listed it, like Mind Block it was only a Sensitive or Physical choice, though I don't know why they bothered since the Psychic PCC started with it... maybe so Guardians RCC / Mystic OCC could get it, since they could get sensitive or healer... not sure point of listing it physical then) that would (WB 12 pg 152) allow the Booster, Actuator, Sensitive, Physical or Eruptor implants to all have a chance of instilling it.

The CS Psi-Weapon Gauntlet (Psyscape pg 154) doesn't have a listed cost for its Electrokinetic Punches/Blasts, so that could also be an option for a minor psychic at 0 ISP unable to regenerate it. This could be an important weapon in battling Astral Travelers invading the Coalition States. Sure, Power Armor is usually a better investment for 1.6 million, but that can't deal with ghosts!

Simply being able to used charged telekinetic Techno-Wizard items (even if others do the charging) would also be a major benefit of being a minor psychic stuck at 0 ISP. Especially since as above, they might be able to spend their PPE, which restores 5/rest for everyone. Unless I missed something about only mages being able to spend PPE to charge TW.

Unfortunately, while mages can retrieve PPE from TW devices as of RUE, I don't think that works for if you charge it with ISP.

[J_cobbers]

Psyscape is not canon to the new dimension called Ultimate Rifts Earth, I guess, if we're ignoring that it reinforces the skill penalties just because, like many things, it was omitted from the Ultimate Edition for space.

Spells present in the Rifts Main Book / Federation of Magic / Book of Magic must also not exist in Ultimate Rifts Earth if they were not reprinted in Ultimate Edition. If a spell was not printed in Ultimate Edition, this means Siembieda was telling us that the spell is no longer canon.

Reminder to everyone that since the "2 ISP for sleep or rest" rule and "all psychics can meditate" rule is from the original Rifts, that per Rifts Ultimate Edition a psychic must spend a lesser psionic power on Meditation to be able to regenerate ISP.

This would mean that the usual minor psychics would be limited to 1 power (meditation is listed under sensitive/physical/healing), Crazies to 2 powers (RUE 55) and major psychics to 5 (mixed) or 7 (single category) other powers, in addition to meditation, if they opted for it (as I imagine most players would do when designing the character, if the necessity occurred to them)

It would be possible for psychics to abstain from selecting meditation, but that would mean they would have no obvious means of restoring ISP, like if you brought over the 'Restore ISP' power from Nightbane: Between the Shadows so that other psychics could help you, which would be pretty interesting.

One in-book example would be the 'Group Trance' power on RUE 179. It doesn't regenerate your ISP but does allow you to power your abilities using the ISP of others in the group. Given it is a super psionic power, of the Ultimate classs, that's only going to be a concern of Mind Melters (pg 151) and 4th/8th level Mystics (pg 119).

Mystics and Mind Melters both have plenty of lesser power selections at 1st level to be able to select Meditation though.

If you want to bring Mind Melters back up to their 12 per hour glory they had in Rifts originally, that would require allowing the selection of Super Psionics from Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition page 309, the "Advanced Trance State" power which costs 10 to activate lets you regenerate 12/hour, so after 2 hours (24-10=14) you have already surpassed basic meditation (12 per 2 hours) speeds.

That also has the benefit of doubling the rate of healing. You also hover, which can be bad if you don't want people to know your psychic, but good if there are rats scurrying about on the floors. The power also gives you the option of doing a stasis for 1/10 metabolism negating the need to eat or drink and requiring 1/10 the air and stopping toxins/drugs/disease until your meditation ends (by 6th level you can meditate a full 2 days which cures them) and it lets you sense danger.

This power would fit conceptually with Mystics too, and is more independent than relying on Group Trances with other psychics to power your abilities. Another huge benefit is since this is a super psionic power, if you were from Psyscape then a Mind Melter could select this as their super psionic power to receive double effect, which should let you regenerate 24 ISP per hour using it. Mystics can't do that since they're only major psychics.

Even if I had Group Trance I would still want to get normal Meditation though, because it costs 0 to use, so if you were down to 9 or fewer, using GT would not be an option. Plus if you only had 1 hour breaks to meditate, would only net you 2 ISP.

Dog Boys (pg 146) usually only get a single psychic sensitive power, but since they regenerate 2 per hour of activity and 12 per hour of sleep (which a Mind Melter apparently no longer does, unless you are open to inheriting the original Rifts rules, which conflicts with "if it's not in Ultimate it was intentionally left out" assumptions) they don't need it.

I believe it may be necessary for them to select the power to access the superior 12/hour rate listed without sleeping, thus the "rate as indicated under each psychic O.C.C., otherwise six" notation on RUE 165. If you got the hourly meditation rate listed under psychic OCCs for free then there would be no point in selecting the power.

Bursters (pg 141) have to select their initial 3 minor psionic powers from a list, which does not include Meditation, so they would not be able to select it until 3rd level.

For psychics who do not buy the meditation power and do not have a "per hour of activity" or "per hour of sleep" rate to fall back on to restore their base, an additional option exists via the Protection Circle: Superior spell on RUE 224. If they can manage the 20 PPE it costs to activate it, that will give them 10 ISP. Obviously the Mystic is the best-off in this respect since they have a large enough base to do that in one go, and can supplement their hourly rates with PPE drawn from ley lines or other people.

Since a Mind Melter has at most 8 points, they're obviously going to need to get help from someone else to do this.

RUE 227 mentions the Talisman spell on page 150 of the Book of Magic, so a mage could possibly lend you that. The initial 50 PPE charge is 2 potential activations of a protection circle (though if a Melter had 8, they would only need to draw 12 from the battery each time, allowing 4 possible activations) and 30 after a recharge (costing creator mage, Demon Lord or god 60) is 1 potential activation (or 2 if, as above, you supplement it with at least 5 PPE each time).

Since a Talisman can store 3 spells instead of 50/30 PPE, the option also exists to have it store the 3rd level spell Life Source (FoM 132, BoM 97). It is intended to provide PPE for spellcasting, but I think it would remain within the spirit to allow PPE generated from it to power a protection circle.

The damage it does to you can't be healed with bio-regeneration or magic, but I can't see anything preventing other psychics from using healing touch / increased healing to help.

Of course, to compete with a 30 PPE battery, you'd need to be able to get more than 10 PPE per go. Since it inflicts penalties for an unknown duration (I would figure they should go away when you heal the damage, but it doesn't say that) if you reach 10 SDC or 5 HP, that means (for 8 SDC and 4 HP) you can only get 8 PPE from it before incurring penalties.

A third trick would be a techno-wizard device that can store PPE (RUE 131) where they could pump in 5 PPE, rest or sleep an hour, repeat 4 times.

Interesting, when RUE 186 mentions this, the wording is broad enough that you might be able to weedle this into an interpretation of how to regain ISP without meditation...

Like psionic I.S.P., the loss of P.P.E. points is temporary, and they will replenish themselves naturally at a rate of about five points for every hour of rest or sleep (or as indicated under the specific O.C.C.)

I'm pretty sure "they" and "themselves" is intended just to refer to PPE points and not both ISP and PPE, but given the glaring absence of ISP regeneration without the meditation power for the Minor/Major/Mystic/Melter someone who really wanted to give them a power boost could opt to interpret this as referring to both, to give a 5 per hour of rest/sleep rate.

That would still retain incentive to select the Meditation power, since that would increase it to 6 per hour if you meditated.

Arguably, since meditation can be viewed as a form of rest, you could add them together to get 11 per hour.

Lack of ISP regeneration wouldn't be utterly crippling if a minor psychic opted to not select meditation. There's a couple mitigators for sensitives:

Someone with Astral Projection can go to the Astral Plane, which is populated by creatures from the Nightbane RPG who would have access to the Restore ISP power to help you out, and plenty of time to do so.

Someone with Sense Evil (RUE 176) works without spending ISP, ISP is only spend to get a clearer picture.

Someone with Telepathy (RUE 177) is open to access with longer-range 2-way communications. It doesn't clearly say that both telepaths need to spend ISP to do this, so it might well allow a Telepath at 0 ISP to have a telepathic conversation so long as the other Telepath spends the ISP to activate the channel.

Plus, if a Mystic or Mind Melter didn't have a means of regenerating ISP, might as well get Mind-Block Auto-Defense and sacrifice some of their base in exchange for not having any activation cost.

Minor/Major Psychics who don't start out with meditation and don't get new powers as they increase in experience levels would be unique candidates for Coalition States Psi-Implants. Since meditation is now a power under all 3 lesser categories (when Nightbane listed it, like Mind Block it was only a Sensitive or Physical choice, though I don't know why they bothered since the Psychic PCC started with it... maybe so Guardians RCC / Mystic OCC could get it, since they could get sensitive or healer... not sure point of listing it physical then) that would (WB 12 pg 152) allow the Booster, Actuator, Sensitive, Physical or Eruptor implants to all have a chance of instilling it.

The CS Psi-Weapon Gauntlet (Psyscape pg 154) doesn't have a listed cost for its Electrokinetic Punches/Blasts, so that could also be an option for a minor psychic at 0 ISP unable to regenerate it. This could be an important weapon in battling Astral Travelers invading the Coalition States. Sure, Power Armor is usually a better investment for 1.6 million, but that can't deal with ghosts!

Simply being able to used charged telekinetic Techno-Wizard items (even if others do the charging) would also be a major benefit of being a minor psychic stuck at 0 ISP. Especially since as above, they might be able to spend their PPE, which restores 5/rest for everyone. Unless I missed something about only mages being able to spend PPE to charge TW.

Unfortunately, while mages can retrieve PPE from TW devices as of RUE, I don't think that works for if you charge it with ISP.

Psi Scape is cannon, See RUE pg 164 which directly references it. RUE isn't an 'alternate' universe, it is a rewrite. Kinda like when DC or Marvel have a huge event that alters the entire reality for a while, like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Flashpoint/New 52, House of M and so on.

You have a tenancy to have this weird interpretation of what is and isn't cannon that is uniquely yours. One has to attempt to apply common sense and realize that where rules conflict, RUE trumps older books going forward. It's sometimes a mess and ugly, but still the same universe. Again the comparison to comic book universe reboot is apt because it leads to a lot of wonky stuff like multiple versions of the same hero most recently Superman (pre new 52 and post new 52 until he dies, but there's also a non kryptonian Clark Kent running around and nobody knows why) or previously Super Girl & Power Girl being alternate reality versions of Kal-El's cousin. In Rifts we simply have new rules laid over old books that sometime conflict. Where there is conflict knock out the older rule. Old stuff goes away when there is a new version of it, otherwise keep it.

Also you are wrongy-wrong-wrong on mediation being the only way for ISP recovery, it is still 2 per hour of sleep, 6 per hour of standard meditation (per the power if the Character has it and mind you even randomly minor psychic characters get 2 powers under RUE pg 289) and 12 or more for some psychic OCC's see pg 366 RUE. I'm guessing you just missed it cause RUE moved rules around haphazardly compared to the RMB.

So yes it is a rule from RMB, but is reprinted and still exists in RUE. Which means your whole analysis is interesting for alternate means of ISP, but unneeded for ISP recovery in general. Every psychic Character recovers at a rate of 2 ISP per hour of sleep as a base line, and some who elect to take the meditation power get it back faster, and others have a better natural recovery rate than others.

Your are right totally about Mind Melters, they got nerfed on ISP recovery either intentionally or by oversight, so they better pick up mediation for the 6 per hour recovery rate! Does it suck and seem like a glaring mistake, yep, but thems the RUE RAW, and part of the reason lots of us use house rules.

Importantly IMHO Meditation does not = sleep. Meditation is an conscious activity
Psi-stalkers have it best and get ISP back at a rate of 12 per hour of sleep or meditation (so if they can't sleep they can meditate too) RUE Pg 154.

I believe your comment on the PPE recovery is correct, it's a comparison of PPE recovery to ISP recovery in that they both happen when a character sleeps, and pg 186 of the RUE is talking specifically about PPE recovery.

[RockJock]

If you interpret that RUE requires the original main book, or even Psycape to fill in holes regarding basic character creation then Palladium needs to scrap the entire book, or issue an online "fix" for RUE at the very least.

[J_cobbers]

If you interpret that RUE requires the original main book, or even Psycape to fill in holes regarding basic character creation then Palladium needs to scrap the entire book, or issue an online "fix" for RUE at the very least.

I have my PDF copy that I annotate with notes on things that don't make sense, are redundant, missing, unclear, or frivolous authorial comments that don't add anything; like what the original inspiration for such and such was, or who wrote a particular section (which should just be on the author credit page). Maybe someday one of us will embark on a massive rewrite/stream lining of the RUE; the Rifts Ultimate Ultimate Edition!

[Axelmania]

Also you are wrongy-wrong-wrong on mediation being the only way for ISP recovery, it is still 2 per hour of sleep, 6 per hour of standard meditation (per the power if the Character has it and mind you even randomly minor psychic characters get 2 powers under RUE pg 289) and 12 or more for some psychic OCC's see pg 366 RUE. I'm guessing you just missed it cause RUE moved rules around haphazardly compared to the RMB.

I stand corrected, thanks for locating it.

I was looking for it in an Ultimate cognate to Rifts 113 when I should have been looking for the Ultimate cognate to Rifts 38.

It is interesting to note that it was changed to only sleep though. Originally 38/113 had "total relaxation" as an alternative option. So it is a slight nerf, since you can be more alert while totally relaxing than when sleeping.

Also still a nerf for the Mind Melter, since they lost their delicious 'hour of activity' rate and enhanced meditation/sleep rate.

So yes it is a rule from RMB, but is reprinted and still exists in RUE. Which means your whole analysis is interesting for alternate means of ISP, but unneeded for ISP recovery in general. Every psychic Character recovers at a rate of 2 ISP per hour of sleep as a base line, and some who elect to take the meditation power get it back faster, and others have a better natural recovery rate than others.

My time wasn't totally wasted... after all, can you really be guaranteed to stay asleep an entire hour on Rifts Earth? RUE 325 Lore: Psionics mentions legends about the Dreamstream, Nightbane: Between the Shadows expands on that, you get woken up if your dream-self is killed.

Your are right totally about Mind Melters, they got nerfed on ISP recovery either intentionally or by oversight, so they better pick up mediation for the 6 per hour recovery rate! Does it suck and seem like a glaring mistake, yep, but thems the RUE RAW, and part of the reason lots of us use house rules.

I kinda like the idea that non-meditative Mind Melters can exist now. Adds variety. It might well be there are situations where you can sleep (ie take a sleeping pill) but not be able to concentrate enough to consciously meditate (like if someone is making annoying noises). Would be interesting if there was some kind of ME roll made to begin/maintain meditation in the case of distractions.

Importantly IMHO Meditation does not = sleep. Meditation is an conscious activity

Rifts 113 had "one hour of meditation restores six (6) I.S.P. and is the equivalent of two hours of sleep/rest for the physical body" but I don't know if that is carried over to Ultimate. Not seeing it on 366 or 165.

Psi-stalkers have it best and get ISP back at a rate of 12 per hour of sleep or meditation (so if they can't sleep they can meditate too) RUE Pg 154.

Psi-hounds tie them, 146, and they get an exclamation point.

The ones who have it best are probably still the Psi-Nullifier though. Psyscape 68 they have an 'unnatural rate' of 20/hour for sleep or meditation, 4/hour activity. As far as I can recall they were the only psychic RCC with a uniquely stated rate in that book, the others didn't say so they would just use the normal 2/6 default, putting them below the Mind Melter at the time...

Or in the main book anyway. Psyscape's reprint of the Mind Melter on page 56 doesn't appear to list a heightened ISP recovery rate... so perhaps Ultimate wasn't even t he first time they received a shadow-nerf?

[Shark_Force]

i would ignore the nerf, personally.

not like mind melters really need it.

[Axelmania]

Don't they? They're so versatile... having crud meditation compared to the specialists is kinda cool.

[Shark_Force]

Don't they? They're so versatile... having crud meditation compared to the specialists is kinda cool.

are they so versatile?

practically speaking, they have 4 powers that they'll use 90% of the time that others don't get easily...

super telekinesis, bio-manipulation, telemechanic (possession/paralysis/mental operation - pick one) for anti-machine, and hypnotic suggestion.

anything else is equally available to any OCC in the entire game through minor or major psionics, or is almost never used (because it rarely comes up, is overpriced, is ineffective, etc), or both.

even if you argue they're the most versatile of psionic characters (which is debatable at best, unless you restrict yourself to *only* the RUE), part of being versatile with psionics should include rapid recovery of ISP. they are *the* iconic psionic of the game. they shouldn't suck at being psionic.

[Axelmania]

This has me interested in how you'd classify the super psionics you didn't mention, RCO / IOP / IIE

Electrokinesis seems pretty useful even in RMB when it did SDC, as of RUE when it gives MD attacks even moreso.

Empathic Transmission has manipulative potential in cases where you don't want to talk to the people you're pushing.

Hydrokinesis would be pretty important if you lacked the gear to test for decent water while adventuring.

Assuming you left out Mentally Possess Others / Mind Wipe / Psi-Sword due to the 3rd level req?

Mind Bond is an amazing interrogative tool if you have a prisoner.

Pyrokinesis would be great for if you smell smoke but are not sure where a fire is in your house, or if you want to survive in a cold outdoor environment, I think it got an MD boost in RUE too like Electro.

Telekinetic Force Field is just plain amazing protection which could save a lot of repair fees and help in rescuing others.

Recovering ISP slowly doesn't mean they suck... perhaps specialists like the Burster/Stalker can regain faster because of their narrow focus. I think they have smaller ISP pools too, so they'd need to use it often for it to make a difference, but the lack of versatility means fewer opportunities to do that.

I wouldn't say most versatile psionic EVER but they're a top contender. What others do you refer to? Natural mind melters like The Dreamer or Neo-Humans or the Mind Mage / Mind Master from PF/NB?

[Shark_Force]

This has me interested in how you'd classify the super psionics you didn't mention, RCO / IOP / IIE

Electrokinesis seems pretty useful even in RMB when it did SDC, as of RUE when it gives MD attacks even moreso.

Empathic Transmission has manipulative potential in cases where you don't want to talk to the people you're pushing.

Hydrokinesis would be pretty important if you lacked the gear to test for decent water while adventuring.

Assuming you left out Mentally Possess Others / Mind Wipe / Psi-Sword due to the 3rd level req?

Mind Bond is an amazing interrogative tool if you have a prisoner.

Pyrokinesis would be great for if you smell smoke but are not sure where a fire is in your house, or if you want to survive in a cold outdoor environment, I think it got an MD boost in RUE too like Electro.

Telekinetic Force Field is just plain amazing protection which could save a lot of repair fees and help in rescuing others.

Recovering ISP slowly doesn't mean they suck... perhaps specialists like the Burster/Stalker can regain faster because of their narrow focus. I think they have smaller ISP pools too, so they'd need to use it often for it to make a difference, but the lack of versatility means fewer opportunities to do that.

I wouldn't say most versatile psionic EVER but they're a top contender. What others do you refer to? Natural mind melters like The Dreamer or Neo-Humans or the Mind Mage / Mind Master from PF/NB?

i didn't say they aren't the most versatile psychic (though palladium certainly has a tendency to create classes that pretty much boil down to "class X plus you do a bunch of extra stuff too", so yes, pretty much anything that gets everything mind melter has and then gets to do other stuff in addition is more versatile). i said they weren't really all that versatile.

electrokinesis as an attack suffers from the same thing as everything else that isn't super telekinesis. way less damage per ISP spent combine with way worse range. the rest of it isn't useless... but it is highly situational.

empathic transmission has very little impact against someone you're not going to talk to most of the time. also, kinda niche. the debuffs are of course much worse than bio-manipulation, so they're not terribly good for that. again, not useless. but pretty niche.

gear to detect water purity isn't terribly hard to find. if it's something you can replace with a minor purchase, i'm not convinced of any extreme value. particularly when the accuracy isn't all that great. so we're looking at something that is useful... but only very rarely. again, pretty niche.

i left out mentally possess others/mind wipe/psi-sword because they're not that great. mentally possess others is short duration, requires you to touch the target, costs a lot of ISP, and leaves you vulnerable to any random schmuck who wanders by your own body. mind wipe is probably one of the more useful options when you need it... which shouldn't come up that often. very niche. psi-sword takes a full melee round to activate, and the damage quite frankly isn't even that impressive until very high levels. you can do similar damage, at range, with a laser rifle. and you don't need to spend 15 seconds watching your friends get killed to use it. but again, i must stress: RANGE. it's kinda important. if you want to do damage with psionics, use super telekinesis. it lets you do respectable damage (with a bit of preparation and by investing some money, *very* respectable damage), and it lets you do it without running up right next to someone.

mind bond if you're interrogating a prisoner, first of all a decent skill (which you could probably have if you weren't a mind melter and severely starved for skills) can be used for interrogations. secondly, telepathy lets you do quite a bit in interrogation too. thirdly, mind bond turns the other person into a gigantic liability because now they also know everything you know, too.

TK force field is all right (it would be amazing if you could use it as an automatic parry, but nothing indicates that you can... it just says you can do a regular parry). i'm not sold on it being something worth using often, nor indeed does the ISP cost convince me that it *can* be used terribly often. if you want to save on armour repairs, get a TW set of armour. it will probably do far more in that direction.

and when the majority of those things you're trying to sell me on cost 20-30 ISP (or sometimes more), then quite frankly, having a terrible ISP regen rate *does* make you pretty bad at psionics. you're not very versatile if you blow your load in 5 seconds and then you need a full day of not doing anything to be able to do anything at all; imagine if there was a gun that recharges itself in the game. you might say it was pretty useful, no? but then, what if i told you that it only holds 3 shots, and it recharges 1 shot per 5 hours of you doing nothing (it won't recharge unless you're not doing anything), and you can only use one of them, it can't be transferred to anyone else, and you need to be an OCC that has so few skills it makes the vagabond look good to get such a gun at all. would you say "wow, that makes you one of the best at shooting in the game"?

some of these abilities do potentially get a bit more useful i suppose if you're diabolic alignment or something; do something horrible, erase people's memories of it, for example.

but most of the time, i find it is more useful (and more satisfying) to not be a horrible person. people who don't commit horrible atrocities don't need to make people forget those things happened.

mind melters can get a whole bunch of powers. most of them are things they'll use very rarely. it's obviously better to have the option than to not have the option, but it isn't really all that amazing.

[Axelmania]

electrokinesis as an attack suffers from the same thing as everything else that isn't super telekinesis. way less damage per ISP spent combine with way worse range. the rest of it isn't useless... but it is highly situational.

Being able to operate devices without touching or sense devices not in plain view is pretty nice. As for the damage, may not be something around to superTK.

empathic transmission has very little impact against someone you're not going to talk to most of the time. also, kinda niche.

What if you want 2 guards to start a fight with one another?

i left out mentally possess others/mind wipe/psi-sword because they're not that great. mentally possess others is short duration, requires you to touch the target, costs a lot of ISP, and leaves you vulnerable to any random schmuck who wanders by your own body.

Easy enough to use your new body to hide your old body.

One could possibly argue that ectoplasm, being an extension of the psychic with a sense of touch, could allow one to use MPO on a guy by sliding that under the door.

mind wipe is probably one of the more useful options when you need it... which shouldn't come up that often. very niche.

Why shouldn't it come up often? It allows you to act pretty inappropriately and then not suffer the consequences. Like say, holding someone at gunpoint, forcing them to tell you the code to the vault and where the cameras are, stealing the money, then wiping it so they don't report the crime.

psi-sword takes a full melee round to activate, and the damage quite frankly isn't even that impressive until very high levels. you can do similar damage, at range, with a laser rifle. and you don't need to spend 15 seconds watching your friends get killed to use it.

E-clips are costly though, and a controlled substance in many towns. A psi-sword also can't be used against you since you can make it vanish if someone takes it.

but again, i must stress: RANGE. it's kinda important. if you want to do damage with psionics, use super telekinesis. it lets you do respectable damage (with a bit of preparation and by investing some money, *very* respectable damage), and it lets you do it without running up right next to someone.

Mentally possessing something non-dangerous (perhaps a dog) should also allow you that freedom to make attacks from safety.

mind bond if you're interrogating a prisoner, first of all a decent skill (which you could probably have if you weren't a mind melter and severely starved for skills) can be used for interrogations. secondly, telepathy lets you do quite a bit in interrogation too.

I imagine with telepathy you need to know the right questions to ask, bond would volunteer lines of thought neither party had on mind.

thirdly, mind bond turns the other person into a gigantic liability because now they also know everything you know, too.

Only for a month, that's why you jail them, unless you Mind Wipe for early release.

TK force field is all right (it would be amazing if you could use it as an automatic parry, but nothing indicates that you can... it just says you can do a regular parry). i'm not sold on it being something worth using often, nor indeed does the ISP cost convince me that it *can* be used terribly often. if you want to save on armour repairs, get a TW set of armour. it will probably do far more in that direction.

and when the majority of those things you're trying to sell me on cost 20-30 ISP (or sometimes more), then quite frankly, having a terrible ISP regen rate *does* make you pretty bad at psionics.

No worse than all the other Psyscape Psychic RCCs with the same right, the only exception being the Nullifier.

you're not very versatile if you blow your load in 5 seconds and then you need a full day of not doing anything to be able to do anything at all;

I imagine psychics with clairvoyance and sixth sense would be pretty good at avoiding being trapped in situations where they'd have to expend all their power to survive.

[Blue_Lion]

Has Psyscape had another print run since 2005?

Did they remove the major skill penalties?

The original printing date of the book not the last reprint is what matters for precedence of conflicting material. (More so with PB where they tend to have bad editing so a shadow update might leave in references to outdated rules.)
I would say that RUE had the most recent reprint as it sales more.

It is not that nothing in the book is cannon it is that references to a rule that has been later chanced should be ignored. IE RUE removed the penalty to skills for the random psi roll that existed in rifts since the first book came out. So the reference of skill penalties in psi scape where to the old rules for psi-however RUE removed them from the rule for rolling for random psi-powers.

I find your all or nothing is cannon idea absurd.
It is to me any world book is cannon but in conflicts of rules the rule with the latest first printing is currant cannon.

[Axelmania]

If the original printing date is what matters, then Rifts came out in 1990.

If you want to treat RUE as a separate game then you can go with 2005.

If you believe the omission of these rules in RUE was intentional even though it doesn't say not to apply penalties, then I can also believe the retention of these penalties in Psyscape was also intentional.

[Blue_Lion]

If the original printing date is what matters, then Rifts came out in 1990.

If you want to treat RUE as a separate game then you can go with 2005.

If you believe the omission of these rules in RUE was intentional even though it doesn't say not to apply penalties, then I can also believe the retention of these penalties in Psyscape was also intentional.

I do not treat RUE as a seperate game. I treat RUE a a change to the rules, that makes the rules it replaced irreverent. So any rule from a book before 2005 that conflicts with the changes in RUE is a reference to an outdated rule that was changed and not part of currant cannon, any rule after 2005 that conflicts is a change in the rules.


That seams to me to be a bit of a streatch they tell you how to roll a random psi in this case it is some what illogically to tell you not use the rule they just replaced. The penalty in Psyscape is a restatement of the penalty found in the core book on how to roll random psi. That makes it a reference to an outdated rule, when it was not stated as part of the steps to roll a random psi the penatly was removed. A reference to an outdated rule does not prove the outdated rule is cannon.

This was not a case of a rule added in psyscape, but psyscape supporting a rule that was in affect at the time it was printed. If psyscape was the orginal source you would be possible justified in saying it is still a valid rule. However given that it a support refence to a rule that was latter changed it is treated as an outdated rule.

[Axelmania]

Denials are changes. Omissions are different. RUE had limited space so some canon was cut but remains canon. Spells, dragons, vehicles, attacks, penalties.

[Blue_Lion]

Denials are changes. Omissions are different. RUE had limited space so some canon was cut but remains canon. Spells, dragons, vehicles, attacks, penalties.

I have been constant in what I said I just change how I say it so you will understand.
Not having something as part of a stated step of charter creation, is not the same as cutting spells or dragons.
The omition of something as part of step when it was always stated as part of it when you change the rules mean it is no longer part of the step. There is no reason to tell you not to do something that the new rules never tell you to do as part of charter creation and if they wasted space on such things they would never be able to write anything. This is a case of do you apply a risk of a penalty to a majority of charters at creation, to only say yes if you have book Y when it can potentially apply to all charters is illogical, more so giving the that the penalty was cut from the steps in the new rules, when it was always stated as part of the step. If the penalty is part of the step it would need to be stated or at least referenced any time you tell a player to do the step. If it is no longer refenced then it is no longer part of the step.

There is more to change than just denials-If I say you can have a +1 the later say you have +2 that is a change If i say you need to wash your hand and brush your teeth, then later say you need to wash your hand that is also a change as you do not need to this time brush your teeth. A change is anything that is different from how it was before regardless of weather it adds or subtracts.

[Axelmania]

The steps are abbreviated guidelines on how to play, they do not include every detail of play. Page 279 for example says to roll 3D6 for everything, we know that isn't the case when you play non-humans. The steps are centered around the average character, a non-psychic human, and do not include add-on details like skill penalties for psychics or bonus skills for other races.

289 verifies Psyscape is consultable within Ultimate, so everything there applies.

RUE consults things which may not appear in the book. It refers to the expanded spell list in Book of Magic, for example.

If someone finds out later that their skills are penalized, the GM can enact that by having them choose which they will forget, due to the strain of being psychic.

[dreicunan]

The only thing that the pro punish the psyker crowd has going for them in attempts to claim that RAW the RMB rules still apply is that RUE Psi-operators are now major psychics and it says that you reduce the available OCCr related skills by half. HOWEVER, it is not a slam dunk, as it DOESN'T say to reduce the bonuses the way that the original RMB rules did, so it is easy to argue that this should be interpreted as a class specific issue and not an indication of how things work.

[Axelmania]

Nice find. Of course, you could rule that psi-operators get to roll for random psionics too, and stack them. Seems to be how it goes for cyber-knights.

Guessing there was.probably some errata.at some point saying not to roll random if OCC provides but if so it falls victim to pre-Ultimate erasure policies some hold to.