Physical Skills

[HarleeKnight]

If you are an MDC race and a Physical skill gives a bonus to SDC (ex. Physical Labor +2D8) do you add it to your MDC?

I've played with a GM who does and another who doesn't. The Demigod race allows it... but it could be a racial trait.

[ShadowLogan]

Yes the Phsycial SDC bonus converts to MDC, at least that is what is in the Forum FAQ section (under Rifts), but they don't cite where this might be in a book.

Personally I go with yes anyway.

[dragonfett]

As I said on FB, I would allow it for OCC's that start off as SDC and are transformed into MDC creatures (Undead Slayers, T-Men, Lord Magus, etc.).

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you are an MDC race and a Physical skill gives a bonus to SDC (ex. Physical Labor +2D8) do you add it to your MDC?

I've played with a GM who does and another who doesn't. The Demigod race allows it... but it could be a racial trait.

RAW….only if your race allows it.

Lazy player/GM: yep

[say652]

I am personally on the if the rcc specifically says list but! I haven't heard a reasonable argument against it. Though that means things like Dragons and Brodkil would get the bonus also.

[Axelmania]

Everyone gets the bonus but it remains SDC unless your race says it is changed to MDC.

SDC bonuses which remain SDC are still beneficial to MDC beings if they are hit by phase weapons.

[say652]

Everyone gets the bonus but it remains SDC unless your race says it is changed to MDC.

SDC bonuses which remain SDC are still beneficial to MDC beings if they are hit by phase weapons.

Ok I'm curious on this now.

Can you explain.

I was under the impression that an mdc object is an mdc is an mdc object.

So mdc objects have hitpoints and Sdc despite being mdc objects?

Definately explain this.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you are an MDC race and a Physical skill gives a bonus to SDC (ex. Physical Labor +2D8) do you add it to your MDC?

Nope.
The only way it works (unless specifically stated under a race/OCC/etc.) is if you're an SDC being that converts to MDC at a 1:1 ratio, and you take the skills before you convert to mega-damage.

I've played with a GM who does and another who doesn't. The Demigod race allows it... but it could be a racial trait.

I don't think that it would make substantial difference in most games, with most races/OCCs.

[eliakon]

If you are an MDC race and a Physical skill gives a bonus to SDC (ex. Physical Labor +2D8) do you add it to your MDC?

Nope.
The only way it works (unless specifically stated under a race/OCC/etc.) is if you're an SDC being that converts to MDC at a 1:1 ratio, and you take the skills before you convert to mega-damage.

I have heard different people make different claims on how this works.
Can anyone cite an actual rule from a book on this?
Or is this one of those "well based on X, Y, and Z it would seem that..."

Honestly curious here as it would be really helpful as the rule would make something canon and not just "Okay, we have chosen to use interpretation X at this table"

[Killer Cyborg]

If you are an MDC race and a Physical skill gives a bonus to SDC (ex. Physical Labor +2D8) do you add it to your MDC?

Nope.
The only way it works (unless specifically stated under a race/OCC/etc.) is if you're an SDC being that converts to MDC at a 1:1 ratio, and you take the skills before you convert to mega-damage.

I have heard different people make different claims on how this works.
Can anyone cite an actual rule from a book on this?
Or is this one of those "well based on X, Y, and Z it would seem that..."

Honestly curious here as it would be really helpful as the rule would make something canon and not just "Okay, we have chosen to use interpretation X at this table"

I'm away from my books, so I can't help much right now.

But it's an SDC bonus, not an MDC bonus. SDC is not MDC.

[eliakon]

If you are an MDC race and a Physical skill gives a bonus to SDC (ex. Physical Labor +2D8) do you add it to your MDC?

Nope.
The only way it works (unless specifically stated under a race/OCC/etc.) is if you're an SDC being that converts to MDC at a 1:1 ratio, and you take the skills before you convert to mega-damage.

I have heard different people make different claims on how this works.
Can anyone cite an actual rule from a book on this?
Or is this one of those "well based on X, Y, and Z it would seem that..."

Honestly curious here as it would be really helpful as the rule would make something canon and not just "Okay, we have chosen to use interpretation X at this table"

I'm away from my books, so I can't help much right now.

But it's an SDC bonus, not an MDC bonus. SDC is not MDC.

Which would almost hold up as vaguely plausible...
...if it were not for the fact that the skills are cut/paste.
Most of them even pre-date MDC

Its PARTICULARLY telling when you have things like the fact that Rifts allows physical skills to add to SNPS and HU2 doesn't. And of course then there is the conversion rules for MDC where you would get all sorts of idioticy...
...like a Mutant built in HU that rifts in would get the SDC bonus, but their identical clone who was trained identically in this world doesn't...

And of course you run into the problem that was pointed out that if you go strictly by that logic...
...then you are now granting SDC to MDC beings, unless you make up a house rule that parts of skills don't apply...
...either way you have to change something.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you are an MDC race and a Physical skill gives a bonus to SDC (ex. Physical Labor +2D8) do you add it to your MDC?

Nope.
The only way it works (unless specifically stated under a race/OCC/etc.) is if you're an SDC being that converts to MDC at a 1:1 ratio, and you take the skills before you convert to mega-damage.

I have heard different people make different claims on how this works.
Can anyone cite an actual rule from a book on this?
Or is this one of those "well based on X, Y, and Z it would seem that..."

Honestly curious here as it would be really helpful as the rule would make something canon and not just "Okay, we have chosen to use interpretation X at this table"

I'm away from my books, so I can't help much right now.

But it's an SDC bonus, not an MDC bonus. SDC is not MDC.

Which would almost hold up as vaguely plausible...
...if it were not for the fact that the skills are cut/paste.
Most of them even pre-date MDC

Same with spells, psionics, and other stuff... but if they didn't change it to MDC, then it's not MDC.
With psychic healing specifically, people have asked in the past if it could be used to heal MDC, and the answer from Palladium was No.
I think they did the same with bonus SDC from skills, too, but even if they didn't, SDC is still SDC and MDC is still MDC.

And of course you run into the problem that was pointed out that if you go strictly by that logic...
...then you are now granting SDC to MDC beings, unless you make up a house rule that parts of skills don't apply...
...either way you have to change something.

Nah.
MDC beings don't get SDC (unless there are one or more specifically stated exceptions somewhere), so nothing happens.
Same as if a brain in a jar (or similar character) learns a skill that increases PS. Since PS doesn't apply to them, they simply don't gain that bonus.

[eliakon]

Nope.
The only way it works (unless specifically stated under a race/OCC/etc.) is if you're an SDC being that converts to MDC at a 1:1 ratio, and you take the skills before you convert to mega-damage.

I have heard different people make different claims on how this works.
Can anyone cite an actual rule from a book on this?
Or is this one of those "well based on X, Y, and Z it would seem that..."

Honestly curious here as it would be really helpful as the rule would make something canon and not just "Okay, we have chosen to use interpretation X at this table"

I'm away from my books, so I can't help much right now.

But it's an SDC bonus, not an MDC bonus. SDC is not MDC.

Which would almost hold up as vaguely plausible...
...if it were not for the fact that the skills are cut/paste.
Most of them even pre-date MDC

Same with spells, psionics, and other stuff... but if they didn't change it to MDC, then it's not MDC.
With psychic healing specifically, people have asked in the past if it could be used to heal MDC, and the answer from Palladium was No.
I think they did the same with bonus SDC from skills, too, but even if they didn't, SDC is still SDC and MDC is still MDC.

That is not the same though.
That is converting things between systems

And of course you run into the problem that was pointed out that if you go strictly by that logic...
...then you are now granting SDC to MDC beings, unless you make up a house rule that parts of skills don't apply...
...either way you have to change something.

Nah.
MDC beings don't get SDC (unless there are one or more specifically stated exceptions somewhere), so nothing happens.
Same as if a brain in a jar (or similar character) learns a skill that increases PS. Since PS doesn't apply to them, they simply don't gain that bonus.

Again that is not technically what the books say
it is a nice house rule that make sense...
...but the brain in the jar would get PS unless they already have text saying they don't have that stat. And YES this is rather important to keep track of.
Some things DO say that they do not get X stat or Y bonus from Z... but with out that we can't make blanket assumptions.

The MDC being doesn't have that proviso.
It may be 'logical' but that is not the same as 'by the rules'
And 'well I think it makes sense based on my vision of the rules' is wildly different than 'its canon'

[Killer Cyborg]

Which would almost hold up as vaguely plausible...
...if it were not for the fact that the skills are cut/paste.
Most of them even pre-date MDC

Same with spells, psionics, and other stuff... but if they didn't change it to MDC, then it's not MDC.
With psychic healing specifically, people have asked in the past if it could be used to heal MDC, and the answer from Palladium was No.
I think they did the same with bonus SDC from skills, too, but even if they didn't, SDC is still SDC and MDC is still MDC.[/quote]
That is not the same though.
That is converting things between systems[/quote]

So... when you were talking about skills being cut-and-pasted that pre-date MDC, what were you talking about?

And of course you run into the problem that was pointed out that if you go strictly by that logic...
...then you are now granting SDC to MDC beings, unless you make up a house rule that parts of skills don't apply...
...either way you have to change something.

Nah.
MDC beings don't get SDC (unless there are one or more specifically stated exceptions somewhere), so nothing happens.
Same as if a brain in a jar (or similar character) learns a skill that increases PS. Since PS doesn't apply to them, they simply don't gain that bonus.

Again that is not technically what the books say
it is a nice house rule that make sense...
...but the brain in the jar would get PS unless they already have text saying they don't have that stat. And YES this is rather important to keep track of.
Some things DO say that they do not get X stat or Y bonus from Z... but with out that we can't make blanket assumptions.

lol
Dude, if that makes sense to you, have fun with it.

[HarleeKnight]

The Rifts FAQ Forum starts off with NMI stating in a couple places that MDC beings get the SDC bonuses, then Tinker Dragoon takes over and later in the forum he states they don't, sooo... Lol.
I'll just be sure to ask whatever GM that's running the game what he wants. When I run one, I'll allow it.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Rifts FAQ Forum starts off with NMI stating in a couple places that MDC beings get the SDC bonuses, then Tinker Dragoon takes over and later in the forum he states they don't, sooo... Lol.
I'll just be sure to ask whatever GM that's running the game what he wants. When I run one, I'll allow it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

if physical skills do add SDC, then it's as good as adding an extra 1 MDC no matter how little.

Think about it. the way MDC works is any attack doing less than 100 SDC does no damage at all.

so lets say your some creature with 30 MDC. you take athletics and get 5 SDC. you now have 30 MDC and 5 SDC.

Someone shoots you with a laser pistol, rolls the worst result of a 1. well, the damage comes off SDC first, so that's 100 SDC vs 5. 5 SDC is taken.

95 SDC is then blown through to your MDC. this is less than 100, so it does nothing.

Same if you do 2 MDC. the 5 SDC reduces that 200 SDC by 5, so one MDC worth is negated.

Same even applies if you apply to MDC first. if they have 30 MDC, and they take a shot that does exactly 30 MDC, then they'd still have 5 SDC left and could still move and fight normally (hopefully casting armor of ithan or escaping)

any amount of SDC on an MDC being is as good as an extra MDC point in general. 1 SDC is the same as 100, and 101 SDC is as good as 200 if you also have MDC.

There is even a bit of precidence, as Vampire Intelligences have both MDC and HP.

[Killer Cyborg]

if physical skills do add SDC, then it's as good as adding an extra 1 MDC no matter how little.

Think about it. the way MDC works is any attack doing less than 100 SDC does no damage at all.

so lets say your some creature with 30 MDC. you take athletics and get 5 SDC. you now have 30 MDC and 5 SDC.

Well, there's a certain amount of rounding off with mega-damage when dealing with SDC.
If you've got 115 SDC, and you're shot for 1 MD, you're just dead. That extra SDC doesn't matter. (Or, at least, it didn't at one point in the rules. CB1, IIRC.)

So in theory, 5 SDC might well leave 100 SDC worth of damage still coming through, or 1 MD.

It'd be GM's call.

But there's nothing stating that creatures can have both MDC and SDC. In fact, I believe that the rules state that MDC replaces SDC, that creatures don't have both.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Do you have a page number for that rule?

[Killer Cyborg]

Do you have a page number for that rule?

The carryover for MDC?

Rifts, p. 11-12
Always round down SDC damage. For example: a missile that inflicts 450 SDC equals 4 MDC.
Likewise, when an SDC structure is blasted by mega-damage, always round the SDC down when assessing damage. For example: when an object that has 230 SDC is hit by 2 MD points of damage, the item is destroyed (all 230 SDC). What little may remain is a useless piece of junk.

And possibly some other places.

BUT it was changed in CB1r

CB1r, p. 25-26
...even an MD punch that only does 1 MD point of damage is likely to instantly kill an ordinary person...
...One of the only exceptions are living beings whose combined HP and SDC equal 100 or more.
In this case, 100 Hit Points and/or SDC equal roughly ONE MD point of damage. that means the character can withstand the equivalent of ONE MD, because one MD equals 100 HP and/or SDC. So a character with 118 points of HP/SDC can actually withstand one point of Mega-Damage. If the character has 150 to 200 combined points, he can withstand two points of MD (I like to round up to give the character a fighting chance).
In the case of some aliens, mutants, monsters, and super beings, the character may have way more than a hundred or so HP and SDC, when the numbers are combined....
Thus, a being with 900 SDC is equal to 9 MDC and can take up to 9 points of Mega-Damage before being killed....
... For example, a character in a suit of armor with 190 SDC and AR 18 will see the Mega-Damage attack blast through the AR as if it did not exist, but the physical armor will absorb 2 MD. The armor is blasted to smithereens or vaporized, but it takes damage first, leaving the rest of the MD of the attack to hit the character. So using this example, a blast that inflicts 10 MD will atomize the exterior armor, burning up two of the 10 MD, leaving 8 MD to hit the character himself.

Which I tend to forget, because things went the other way for so long, and because CB1r is pretty wonky rule-wise, and because it makes more sense to me the original way, where MD was deadlier than the SDC equivalent.

As of RUE, there's no mention of either rule. Technically, I believe the CB1r rule would stand as the most current canon, and therefore it looks like your original assessment would be accurate under that rule.
IF a being could have both SDC and MDC at once.

[Blue_Lion]

The rifts charter sheet does seam to indicate you either have sdc or mdc. In the stat box it has _DC that you make either S or M.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/images/Do ... -front.pdf

[Nekira Sudacne]

It has two of those boxes and a seperate line for HP. So you can put both on your sheet.

Of course it also has a spot for Chi and there is no chi in Rifts claddes. I don't think the sheet is a source of rules.

[Blue_Lion]

It has two of those boxes and a seperate line for HP. So you can put both on your sheet.

Of course it also has a spot for Chi and there is no chi in Rifts claddes. I don't think the sheet is a source of rules.

Chi exists in rifts, typically the only time you worry about it is when you convert a Ninjas and superspies charter(the idea is that rifts can and does rift in charters from other PB settings). The inclusion of chi was because the if a GM allows a chi user from NSS then every one has chi and for most it is equal to their PE. So if you make a vagabond with 12PE you also have 12 chi but most people do not track it because it is only used when you have chi users converstion.

The two blocks you mention are found in damaging tracking not the part where you track personal DC the intent of the sheet was to be able to be used with any charter.
*At the time the sheet was made it was possible to have bleed through damage, so while in MDC armor powerfull hits inflicted SDC to the wearer of the armor. Meaning a SDC creature in MDC armor would take MDC to the armor and SDC to the person so you would need track both SDC damage and MDC damage in combat however A MDC creature takes 0 damage from SDC attacks at the time the sheet was made so there was no reason for them to track both SDC and MDC.

However if you look at the charter stats they only have a option for 1 DC type.

An official charter sheet is a good way to see if the intent was to have multiple types of DC. It is not a source of rules but is a source of evidence in a debate about having multiple types of DC. I never claimed it was a rule but that it seamed to indicate you only had 1 type. If a sheet made specifically for a MDC creature included both MDC and SDC that would indicate it is possible.

Lacking a rule that says weather or not MDC creatures have sdc you have to look at other sources to get what is likely allowed. Charter stats, in this case would be a good source of evidence of possibility, this includes charter sheets, and NPCs. Does a NPC exist that is MDC and includes SDC?

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

[Blue_Lion]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

So it does seam the charter sheet reflects the rules. Almost like they designed the sheet using RAW.

(as a gm I would allow converting 100 sdc from skills to 1 extra mdc but that is strictly a house rule not anything offical.)

[eliakon]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

[Blue_Lion]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

Is there anything that says they get mdc in place of SDC from skills?
Is there precedence for changing the DC type provided by skills?

[eliakon]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

Is there anything that says they get mdc in place of SDC from skills?
Is there precedence for changing the DC type provided by skills?

That was what the question was about wasn't it.

But since no one has provided anything either way it is coming down to trying to interpret the rules

The question then is how do we interpret them

I am simply pointing out that if the rule says you have MDC instead of SDC, and something gives you SDC, then logically you got given MDC...
...because you can't be being given SDC, you have MDC.
OR
You can rule that you simply can't be improved

Either way will require making a change to the skills

It is, however not a simple open and shut case as some like to present it.
If it WERE a simple open and shut case, then someone could provide a simple open and shut rules reference on the subject. Since no one has it is still a grey area.

[Blue_Lion]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

Is there anything that says they get mdc in place of SDC from skills?
Is there precedence for changing the DC type provided by skills?

That was what the question was about wasn't it.

But since no one has provided anything either way it is coming down to trying to interpret the rules

The question then is how do we interpret them

I am simply pointing out that if the rule says you have MDC instead of SDC, and something gives you SDC, then logically you got given MDC...
...because you can't be being given SDC, you have MDC.
OR
You can rule that you simply can't be improved

Either way will require making a change to the skills

It is, however not a simple open and shut case as some like to present it.
If it WERE a simple open and shut case, then someone could provide a simple open and shut rules reference on the subject. Since no one has it is still a grey area.

Not realy a grey area the question is do you change the DC, no would be the negitive that requires no instructions not to do a negitive. Yes requires a change a positive there should be some precedence. So is there precidence of skills DC changing based on the represent.

Logically when you have MDC you do not have SDC(unless told other wise) there for if a skill would give you sdc it has no affect as you can not have SDC. Basically you are immune to all things that affect SDC unless there is more than 100 sdc involved.

Changing 1 SDC to 1 MDC for MDC creatures as a default is illogical as SDC = 1/100MDC

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

Not at all, because SDC is still SDC, and MDC is still MDC.
If you're an SDC being, for example, and you gain a bonus +4 MDC... do you drop that down to to +4 SDC instead?
Probably not.

When you get +x SDC, that's still just SDC.
The only way that the bonus becomes mega-damage is if your specific MDC is determined based on your hypothetical base SDC.

[eliakon]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

Is there anything that says they get mdc in place of SDC from skills?
Is there precedence for changing the DC type provided by skills?

That was what the question was about wasn't it.

But since no one has provided anything either way it is coming down to trying to interpret the rules

The question then is how do we interpret them

I am simply pointing out that if the rule says you have MDC instead of SDC, and something gives you SDC, then logically you got given MDC...
...because you can't be being given SDC, you have MDC.
OR
You can rule that you simply can't be improved

Either way will require making a change to the skills

It is, however not a simple open and shut case as some like to present it.
If it WERE a simple open and shut case, then someone could provide a simple open and shut rules reference on the subject. Since no one has it is still a grey area.

Not realy a grey area the question is do you change the DC, no would be the negitive that requires no instructions not to do a negitive. Yes requires a change a positive there should be some precedence. So is there precidence of skills DC changing based on the represent.

Logically when you have MDC you do not have SDC(unless told other wise) there for if a skill would give you sdc it has no affect as you can not have SDC. Basically you are immune to all things that affect SDC unless there is more than 100 sdc involved.

Changing 1 SDC to 1 MDC for MDC creatures as a default is illogical as SDC = 1/100MDC

That works if we start from the premise that the skill was intended solely to add sdc.
If the skill is supposed to represent physical training of the body though then it becomes a lot more complex
In that case you have three options
1) house rule the skill so that it does nothing to creatures with MDC
2) house rule the game so that it does what is written and grants the SDC to the creature
3) house rule the skill so that it provides the same level of training regardless of what is taking the training.

Any option will require changing the written material in some way.

This is especially important because while there is a fandom term of DC that is widely used... that is not an official game term and thus can not be used in the RAW.
As written all RAW materials in all sources use the same write up for skills (SDC) some of the most recent materials do make clear that this applies to MDC beings (splicers) or that this does not apply in some cases (HU2 lets physical skills only affect the lesser 3 levels of PS and not Supernatural) but that is neither universal, nor has that been applied to Rifts yet.
Thus we are left to try and interpret how this is supposed to work.

One way I suppose would be to go through and 'reverse engineer' all the known NPCs to see if their MDC totals reflect their skills.

[eliakon]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

Not at all, because SDC is still SDC, and MDC is still MDC.
If you're an SDC being, for example, and you gain a bonus +4 MDC... do you drop that down to to +4 SDC instead?
Probably not.

When you get +x SDC, that's still just SDC.
The only way that the bonus becomes mega-damage is if your specific MDC is determined based on your hypothetical base SDC.

That is one view yes
The opposite view is that
1) I add the 2d6 SDC
2) I then look at my sheet and say Demons have MDC instead of SDC
3) cross out the SDC and write in the correct MDC

Or of course you can go with the "I know have 34 MDC and 9 SDC"

Or you can house rule that the skill does nothing

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

Not at all, because SDC is still SDC, and MDC is still MDC.
If you're an SDC being, for example, and you gain a bonus +4 MDC... do you drop that down to to +4 SDC instead?
Probably not.

When you get +x SDC, that's still just SDC.
The only way that the bonus becomes mega-damage is if your specific MDC is determined based on your hypothetical base SDC.

That is one view yes
The opposite view is that
1) I add the 2d6 SDC
2) I then look at my sheet and say Demons have MDC instead of SDC
3) cross out the SDC and write in the correct MDC

Sounds like that argument is based on an ignorance of the rules for demons' structural capacity.
What about people who don't have to look at their sheet in order to know that Demons have MDC instead of SDC?

Or of course you can go with the "I know have 34 MDC and 9 SDC"

Not according to the rules.
By the book, MDC replaces SDC.

Or you can house rule that the skill does nothing

Now it sounds like you're confusing "SDC bonus" with "Everything that a skill does."

[Blue_Lion]

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That would just as well support the idea that "hmmm, you get 2d6 SDC from this skill, but you have MDC instead of SDC so you get 2d6 MDC"
So now we are back to "you get the appropriate DC from your skill"

Not at all, because SDC is still SDC, and MDC is still MDC.
If you're an SDC being, for example, and you gain a bonus +4 MDC... do you drop that down to to +4 SDC instead?
Probably not.

When you get +x SDC, that's still just SDC.
The only way that the bonus becomes mega-damage is if your specific MDC is determined based on your hypothetical base SDC.

That is one view yes
The opposite view is that
1) I add the 2d6 SDC
2) I then look at my sheet and say Demons have MDC instead of SDC
3) cross out the SDC and write in the correct MDC

Or of course you can go with the "I know have 34 MDC and 9 SDC"

Or you can house rule that the skill does nothing

You have not provided any precedence.

The problem with that besides lack of precedence is order of creation. HP/SDC base is determined in step 2 MDC is step three OCCs and skills are step 5. So before you get skills you are already MDC so it is not a matter of converting existing SDC to MDC but adding SDC then upgrading it by 100 times its base with a lack of instrcutions to do so.

If a MDC creature can not have SDC it is impossible to add SDC, not that SDC becomes MDC as the two are not equal.
I have never seen anything that sets a precedence for changing SDC to MDC by default. In fact at one time during the rule line it was impossible to change SN str with physical skills.

So here is what happens in your statement.
1 skill adds 2d6 SDC.
2 You look for the spot to add SDC and see there is no where to write it down as your demon only has only MDC, and they have no SDC.
3 So you cross out the 2d6 SDC as it does not apply.


Not doing a conversion because nothing tells you to convert something is RAW it is not a house rule or GM rulling. (RAW is doing nothing that is not in writing.)
*Converting without instructions to do so is a house rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

If a MDC creature can not have SDC it is impossible to add SDC, not that SDC becomes MDC as the two are not equal.
I have never seen anything that sets a precedence for changing SDC to MDC by default. In fact at one time during the rule line it was impossible to change SN str with physical skills.

So here is what happens in your statement.
1 skill adds 2d6 SDC.
2 You look for the spot to add SDC and see there is no where to write it down as your demon only has only MDC, and they have no SDC.
3 So you cross out the 2d6 SDC as it does not apply.


Not doing a conversion because nothing tells you to convert something is RAW it is not a house rule or GM rulling. (RAW is doing nothing that is not in writing.)
*Converting without instructions to do so is a house rule.

Well said.

[Blue_Lion]

If a MDC creature can not have SDC it is impossible to add SDC, not that SDC becomes MDC as the two are not equal.
I have never seen anything that sets a precedence for changing SDC to MDC by default. In fact at one time during the rule line it was impossible to change SN str with physical skills.

So here is what happens in your statement.
1 skill adds 2d6 SDC.
2 You look for the spot to add SDC and see there is no where to write it down as your demon only has only MDC, and they have no SDC.
3 So you cross out the 2d6 SDC as it does not apply.


Not doing a conversion because nothing tells you to convert something is RAW it is not a house rule or GM rulling. (RAW is doing nothing that is not in writing.)
*Converting without instructions to do so is a house rule.

Well said.

Why thank you.

[eliakon]

Sooo
we are back to
"It is our personal opinion that the rules work this way. We can't actually point to anything, and we will ignore anything that conflicts with it"
Got it.
You make a convincing case for this to be a common house rule
BUT you can not supply support for your claim that it is a universal rule with out providing your own interpretations.

Got it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sooo
we are back to
"It is our personal opinion that the rules work this way. We can't actually point to anything, and we will ignore anything that conflicts with it"
Got it.

Which part do you think is personal opinion?
a) RAW is doing nothing that is not in writing
b) SDC is not MDC

[Nekira Sudacne]

It has two of those boxes and a seperate line for HP. So you can put both on your sheet.

Of course it also has a spot for Chi and there is no chi in Rifts claddes. I don't think the sheet is a source of rules.

Chi exists in rifts, typically the only time you worry about it is when you convert a Ninjas and superspies charter(the idea is that rifts can and does rift in charters from other PB settings). The inclusion of chi was because the if a GM allows a chi user from NSS then every one has chi and for most it is equal to their PE. So if you make a vagabond with 12PE you also have 12 chi but most people do not track it because it is only used when you have chi users converstion.

Actually the Revised conversion book makes them Psionic powers instead using ISP, rewriting them wholesale

The two blocks you mention are found in damaging tracking not the part where you track personal DC the intent of the sheet was to be able to be used with any charter.
*At the time the sheet was made it was possible to have bleed through damage, so while in MDC armor powerfull hits inflicted SDC to the wearer of the armor. Meaning a SDC creature in MDC armor would take MDC to the armor and SDC to the person so you would need track both SDC damage and MDC damage in combat however A MDC creature takes 0 damage from SDC attacks at the time the sheet was made so there was no reason for them to track both SDC and MDC.

However if you look at the charter stats they only have a option for 1 DC type.

An official charter sheet is a good way to see if the intent was to have multiple types of DC. It is not a source of rules but is a source of evidence in a debate about having multiple types of DC. I never claimed it was a rule but that it seamed to indicate you only had 1 type. If a sheet made specifically for a MDC creature included both MDC and SDC that would indicate it is possible.

Lacking a rule that says weather or not MDC creatures have sdc you have to look at other sources to get what is likely allowed. Charter stats, in this case would be a good source of evidence of possibility, this includes charter sheets, and NPCs. Does a NPC exist that is MDC and includes SDC?

Eh, I get what you're saying, but it's really too thin for me to give it much credence. Character sheet formatting is weak, Palladium dosn't get it's editing anywhere else right, why would where they put the MDC boxes matter here?

[Blue_Lion]

Sooo
we are back to
"It is our personal opinion that the rules work this way. We can't actually point to anything, and we will ignore anything that conflicts with it"
Got it.
You make a convincing case for this to be a common house rule
BUT you can not supply support for your claim that it is a universal rule with out providing your own interpretations.

Got it.

RAW is only what is writing if it is not in writing it is not part of raw.

So if RAW does not say to convert SDC to MDC not doing so is RAW.
If a MDC creature can not have SDC like the rules say then you can not add sdc at all.

Simple check-does the book say to convert skill SDC to MDC? No- then not doing so is RAW.
Do the rules allow MDC creatures to have SDC? If no then the rules do not allow adding SDC to MDC creatures.

[Blue_Lion]

It has two of those boxes and a seperate line for HP. So you can put both on your sheet.

Of course it also has a spot for Chi and there is no chi in Rifts claddes. I don't think the sheet is a source of rules.

Chi exists in rifts, typically the only time you worry about it is when you convert a Ninjas and superspies charter(the idea is that rifts can and does rift in charters from other PB settings). The inclusion of chi was because the if a GM allows a chi user from NSS then every one has chi and for most it is equal to their PE. So if you make a vagabond with 12PE you also have 12 chi but most people do not track it because it is only used when you have chi users converstion.

Actually the Revised conversion book says make Chi from N&SS ISP instead. so it's gotten the offical ax (much to my distaste)

The two blocks you mention are found in damaging tracking not the part where you track personal DC the intent of the sheet was to be able to be used with any charter.
*At the time the sheet was made it was possible to have bleed through damage, so while in MDC armor powerfull hits inflicted SDC to the wearer of the armor. Meaning a SDC creature in MDC armor would take MDC to the armor and SDC to the person so you would need track both SDC damage and MDC damage in combat however A MDC creature takes 0 damage from SDC attacks at the time the sheet was made so there was no reason for them to track both SDC and MDC.

However if you look at the charter stats they only have a option for 1 DC type.

An official charter sheet is a good way to see if the intent was to have multiple types of DC. It is not a source of rules but is a source of evidence in a debate about having multiple types of DC. I never claimed it was a rule but that it seamed to indicate you only had 1 type. If a sheet made specifically for a MDC creature included both MDC and SDC that would indicate it is possible.

Lacking a rule that says weather or not MDC creatures have sdc you have to look at other sources to get what is likely allowed. Charter stats, in this case would be a good source of evidence of possibility, this includes charter sheets, and NPCs. Does a NPC exist that is MDC and includes SDC?

Eh, I get what you're saying, but it's really too thin for me to give it much credence. Character sheet formatting is weak, Palladium dosn't get it's editing anywhere else right, why would where they put the MDC boxes matter here?

Nope- the Revised conversion book does not change chi to ISP. It provides optional rules to add Ninja and superspies powers to psi charters. This was not changing how you import charters and powers but a way to add similar powers without converting a Ninjas and super spies charter. They actually state this in the area where they talk about the powers as psi powers.

But as killer cyborg pointed out MDC creatures have MDC instead of sdc/hp.

[Shark_Force]

iirc, there's a random table for generating alien races or something like that in phase world that briefly discusses how physical skills work with various SDC and MDC beings. i don't recall for certain whether it discusses bonus SDC from physical skills, it may only mention PS and such.

it might be informative to check on that if it hasn't been done... i can't be sure since i'm mostly skimming and a couple of people in here i've decided to not be able to read what they write.

(i can't do it, because i don't personally own the book and the friend who owns it moved away years ago).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

iirc, there's a random table for generating alien races or something like that in phase world that briefly discusses how physical skills work with various SDC and MDC beings.

Eh, ill check on that.

What i will say, for now:

There are instances of SDC becoming MDC, but all of those that i can think of are when an SDC being becomes MDC. Tatooed Men, for instance, or converted martial artists or super powers (which will say "gives +8 MDC, and turn all SDC into MDC" or some approximation thereof).

[Daniel Stoker]

iirc, there's a random table for generating alien races or something like that in phase world that briefly discusses how physical skills work with various SDC and MDC beings. i don't recall for certain whether it discusses bonus SDC from physical skills, it may only mention PS and such.

Sorta? On page 104 of Phase World it says:

61-70 Minor M.D.C. Being: Base M.D.C. of P.E., plus 1D6 per level of experience. Any bonuses or modifiers for appearance and physiological modifications will be in mega-damage points, but all such bonuses are halved.

But appearance and physiological modification are 2 specific tables in that section for creating your alien race.


Daniel Stoker

[Shark_Force]

pretty sure it's a little blurb at the start or end of the table, not part of the table itself. but i could be wrong.

[Daniel Stoker]

Not that I can find? The only other real mention of M.D.C and S.D.C. is before that with this:

M.D.C./S.D.C: The races of the Three Galaxies are evenly split between super-powerful, mega-damage beings and "normal" S.D.C. creatures. As a result, most of the bonuses listed here will have na S.D.C./M.D.C. option, leaving the Game Master a choice between the two.

Daniel Stoker

[Shark_Force]

hmmm... well, either it's a different printing that i've seen (i don't even know if there *is* a different printing though) or more likely i'm remembering wrong. ah well, wish i could've been of more help.

[say652]

My house rule being Mdc creatures unless it says in the description specifically they do gain mdc from sdc skills the answer is No. Attribute and other bonuses apply just not the additional mdc

[Axelmania]

I was under the impression that an mdc object is an mdc is an mdc object.

So mdc objects have hitpoints and Sdc despite being mdc objects?

Definately explain this.

I am not aware of any overall prohibitions against MDC creatures being able to have SDC and Hit Points as well.

There exist several examples where these things are listed concurrently for a being which I remember from Vampire Kingdoms:
pg 10 the Vampire intelligence has Hit Points AND then MDC by Location
pg 112 Mii-Taar has HP/SDC and MDC from natural body armor (this is separate from the body armor he wears)
pg 171 the Chihuacoatls/Vernlians have Hit Points and then MDC from natural body armor, which is separate from their body armor / force fields
pg 175 the Dybbuk have both Hit Points and MDC, in contrast with the Incubus/Succubus on the same page who only had MDC and for whom Hit Points were not applicable

MDC beings don't get SDC (unless there are one or more specifically stated exceptions somewhere), so nothing happens.

Any page source for MDC beings not getting SDC?

the damage comes off SDC first, so that's 100 SDC vs 5.

That's the part where I'm not sure of. We know damage comes off SDC before HP but where MDC is entered into the order isn't entirely clear.

I would figure MDC first, at least for ones with it from natural body armor like Mii-Tarr or Vernulians. You get a 'hard outer shell' feel from them. SDC would reflect some toughness protecting them from variable weaponry once the MDC is gone, or which can be used to fuel things like Golem creation, which they could not otherwise do since there are not printed rules for making golems using MDC.

But there's nothing stating that creatures can have both MDC and SDC. In fact, I believe that the rules state that MDC replaces SDC, that creatures don't have both.

We wouldn't need a rule saying you can have both, we would need a rule saying you can't have both.

How current a rule is the statement which supports your second sentence?

The rifts charter sheet does seam to indicate you either have sdc or mdc. In the stat box it has _DC that you make either S or M.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/images/Do ... -front.pdf

There are 2 additional fields on the left side though, so you could put M in one and S in the other, you could actually have THREE kinds of _DC.

This is notably discrete from the "Armor" box on the right side further down the document, implying you can get 2 kinds of _DC from your character alone.

Loving the 'chi' field on a Rifts character sheet. Not a template used for most NPCs that's for sure.

RUE 288
Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

RUE 355
Demons and supernatural beings inflict Mega-Daamge and also have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That's clearly just talking about default racial characteristics, like how some races start off with SDC bases (giants, trolls, ogres) and these creatures start off with MDC bases instead.

It doesn't equate to the outlawing of having SDC, just that the creatures get MDC instead of SDC to start with, in Rifts anyway, since we know they have SDC to start with in Palladium Fantasy 2nd / Dragons and Gods.

Pretty sure that vampire intelligences are supernatural, so they disprove the assumption you can't have both.

The common vampire too, disproves "have MDC" as an actual rule for supernatural beings.

As do werewolves, since they also have HP instead of MDC.

There's probably some other examples of non-MDC creatures of magic / supernatural beings in Rifts too.

All we know from RUE288/RUE355 is that some CoM/SBs have starting MDC in place of starting SDC.

Logically when you have MDC you do not have SDC(unless told other wise)

No logical argument has been made to support this conclusion.

illogical as SDC = 1/100MDC

That's not heavily illogical, since that's the rough idea the ratios express, except for the part about rounding off.

The opposite view is that
1) I add the 2d6 SDC
2) I then look at my sheet and say Demons have MDC instead of SDC
3) cross out the SDC and write in the correct MDC

The problem I have with this view is that the statement in 2 does not actually lead to 3.

I may as well assume that demons wearing SDC armor change the armor into MDC, and their SDC swords now are MDC swords, because they "have" those too.

The general 288/355 statements are simply describing the reality that these creatures, as opposed to many tough races who begin with SDC and HP amounts in Rifts, begin with an MDC amount and usually with no HP or SDC amount listed. Usually "not applicable" if they list it at all.

This is in no way a prohibition against gaining quantities in those fields if they are added somehow.

I could "have no ISP" for example, and then have something which gives +10 ISP, which would give me a base of 10 ISP.

By the book, MDC replaces SDC.

You're misreading it, having MDC instead of HP or SDC is the reality of base racial statistics for many species, it is describing the baseline of the races, not the end result of characters.

Actually the Revised conversion book makes them Psionic powers instead using ISP, rewriting them wholesale

No it doesn't, that's just a new option, not a mandatory replacement.

If a MDC creature can not have SDC like the rules say then you can not add sdc at all.

Fortunately, no statement like that has been identified here. The rules mention some races have MDC instead of HP/SDC, not that they can't coexist.

SDC from a physical skill is not SDC from a race, so there's no problem here to resolve. The SDC doesn't come from the race so it doesn't contradict the statement.

We know this not to be blanket statement due to the vampire intelligences in Vampire Kingdoms.

A weaker variant breed of Vampire Intelligence was introduced on page 34 of Vampire Kingdoms revised who had Hit Points by Location. They regenerate 1D6x10 HP per melee round instead of 4D6 HP and 1D6x10 MDC. The classic MDC intelligence could only have the MDC damaged by magic, so you couldn't do stuff like blind or it cut off limbs using normal wooden weapons.

New guys are vulnerable to that kind of stuff, less impressive. GMs should use them as sub-bosses.