True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

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True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by dragonfett »

So all True Atlantean's get a +2 save vs. Magic, and all Undead Slayers get a +4 save vs. Magic. And all Undead Slayers are True Atlanteans. So my question is this: do the bonus to save vs. Magic stack, or does the Undead Slayer's bonus to save vs. Magic replace the standard True Atlantean save vs. Magic?
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

They stack. Just like if A TA were another OCC that gave +4 saves vs magic
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by dragonfett »

Thanks. I have a character making one to join my game and I was double checking his bonuses to save vs. magic and saw that he was actually too low.
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by Axelmania »

If this were any other OCC I would agree with Nekira, but since this is an OCC exclusive to True Atlanteans, it's worth exploring whether or not they may have built in the RCC bonuses.

Normal TAs (page 16) have +2 v magic +4 vs horror factor.
Undead Slayers (page 97) have +4 v magic +9 v horror factor.

It seems more likely to me that they intended this to be an additional +2 v magic +5 v horror factor, rather than to create a total of +6 v magic +13 v horror factor.

Note that the Slayers' "12. Other Bonuses" is at the end of a list called "Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers".

This appears to indicate to me that it is simply showing the enhanced Atlantean abilities, rather than supplementary ones.

If you were to stack this with the RCC abilities, then you'd have to take the same approach with numbers 1-11.

This would mean for example, that "11. Ley Line Phasing" would apply twice, and a Slayer could phase twice as often as either a True Atlantean or a Ley Line Walker.

It would also mean that "6. Continue to grow as adults" would apply twice, so Undead Slayers would grow 2 inches per century instead of 1.

It would also mean that "Increased P.P.E. from magic tattoos" (number 3 for RCC, number 2 for OCC) would apply twice, meaning that each tattoo would give 12 PPE (6 from the RCC, 6 from the OCC).

It would also mean that Increase PPE recovery (number 4 in the RCC, number 3 in the OCC) would apply twice, meaning that they would recover 30 PPE per hour of rest or sleep (10 points from race plus 20 from OCC)

I believe the title preceding the list is clearly enough saying that this is the modified list of Atlantean characteristics, not that this is something you just add to them. It's a replacement, not a supplement.
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

dragonfett wrote:So all True Atlantean's get a +2 save vs. Magic, and all Undead Slayers get a +4 save vs. Magic. And all Undead Slayers are True Atlanteans. So my question is this: do the bonus to save vs. Magic stack, or does the Undead Slayer's bonus to save vs. Magic replace the standard True Atlantean save vs. Magic?


Taking in account that the style of the times that the WB2 was written (where RCCs of a race already include their race's bonuses included.):
The Undead Slayer RCC bonuses appear to have the TA racial bonuses already included in them.


Looking at the Maxi-men (splugorth t-man 18 tatt equiv.) they have bonuses just under those of the Undead Slayer. Which means while undead slayers are 'better' then all the other t-men but still "balanced" with them. Which appears what they were meant to be.

I have a 4th printing book and there is no "Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers" text in it within #12.


Yes, I correctly call Undead Slayer are a RCC because the CC is Racially Restricted to TAs.
#1 is a restating of the TA racial stats #1.
#5-#11 is a restating of the TA racial stats #5-#11.
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by Axelmania »

The text isn't within 12, it precedes the list (beginning with 1.) which 12 is part of.
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by dragonfett »

Axelmania wrote:The text isn't within 12, it precedes the list (beginning with 1.) which 12 is part of.


Exactly what do you mean?
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

<Semi off topic> Out of curiosity... is there anything that actually DOES limit the Undead Slayer class to Atlantians? Besides culture?
I mean could you have a regular human take the class (or anyone else that can get Tattoos...like say a Chiang-Ku Dragon)? Or is there something someplace that actually specifically makes it only open to Atlantians?

I ask because besides the amusing character ideas it opens up... it would help settle the question.
If the class is racially locked then, they often do include the races bonuses in the class as a way to speed things up
If the class is NOT racially locked though... then the class bonuses are those that the class provides because anyone taking the class gets the bonuses
(Usually, unfortunately not always which just makes this a guide line rather than a hard and fast rule)
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The Undead Slayer class is written as other RCCs are written, with the racial bonuses and stats mixed into the class stats.

While there is no 'specific' text excluding non-TAs, the text presumes that the class is one only TAs would be giving.

The question would be, 'If you read the Class Text without any sort of labels in it (and w/o already know what sort of class it was), would you think that only True Atlantians would be trained in this class?'
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Having finnally taken time to check my book, this is what it actually says at the start

"Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers"

So I was wrong, the bonuses and such listed to Undead Slayers are in the place of the standard RCC bonuses and abilities, not in addition to.

That said, it's not defined as an RCC, and i'm not sure what would happen if a true atlantean clan tried to adopt a regular human and make him an undead slayer. it's not banned, it is listed as an OCC but not RCC, but nor do we have stats for such a thing. It's possible the best you get would be a non-slave Maxi-Man in terms of stats.
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Having finnally taken time to check my book, this is what it actually says at the start

"Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers"

So I was wrong, the bonuses and such listed to Undead Slayers are in the place of the standard RCC bonuses and abilities, not in addition to.

Good find!

Nekira Sudacne wrote:That said, it's not defined as an RCC, and i'm not sure what would happen if a true atlantean clan tried to adopt a regular human and make him an undead slayer. it's not banned, it is listed as an OCC but not RCC, but nor do we have stats for such a thing. It's possible the best you get would be a non-slave Maxi-Man in terms of stats.

I would speculate...
...that you would basically "Un-Atlantianize" them.
Basically take the bonuses of a TA, and remove them from the OCC and see what you have left.
And then use that for your hypothetical "non-Atlantean Undead Slayer"
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by Axelmania »

dragonfett wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The text isn't within 12, it precedes the list (beginning with 1.) which 12 is part of.


Exactly what do you mean?


My message was following this exchange:
Axelmania wrote:Note that the Slayers' "12. Other Bonuses" is at the end of a list called "Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers".

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I have a 4th printing book and there is no "Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers" text in it within #12.


I wrote 12 was at the end of a list, drew responded that the text was not within 12, I figure because he misread my statement.

Page 97 of Atlantis has a list of 1. to 12. called "Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers". This big-fonded text follows a line break after the first paragraph which ends in the bolded sentence "Also see the section on Atlantis and True Atlanteans for more details.

All items 1. to 12. are "Atlantean Characteristics".

This indicates it is a modifier of the list on page 16 titled "Special Abilities & Characteristics Common to True Atlanteans".

Page 16 also helpfully indicates that Slayers and Stone Masters "these abilities are slightly different".

Meaning that it is a replacement list, not a supplementary list.

Which also means you need to do a bit of reverse-engineering to play a Stone Master.

An elf who becomes a Stone Master for example does not get +2 to save vs magic and +6 to save vs horror factor.

They would get no bonus vs magic, and reasonably a +2 to save vs horror factor, since that is the difference between the Atlantean RCC and the Master OCC. That's if you want to give them anything at all.

They would also not be able to sense ley lines, sense rifts, or ley line phase, since that is just relisting the racial powers.

Worst of all, since the ability to "operate dimensional pyramids" is racial, at best a non-Atlantean Stone Master could be assumed to have a 10% skill in that, since that's the difference between the 30% base all Atlanteans have and the 40% base the stone masters have.

Perhaps higher than 10 if you have a high IQ.

You could arguably exclude pyramid operation and HF save altogether (that's just my house ruling since it seems reasonable to give other races the difference of abilities) and so non-Atlantean Stone Masters might be incapable of operating pyramids, and would only be helpful in assisting in their building.

This could help explain the usefulness of the Sunaj to the Splugorth empire. Even though all Splugorth are natural stone masters, if they don't get the racial abilities of Atlanteans and can't operate the pyramids, they would need Atlantean servants to serve in that respect.

eliakon wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Having finnally taken time to check my book, this is what it actually says at the start

"Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers"

So I was wrong, the bonuses and such listed to Undead Slayers are in the place of the standard RCC bonuses and abilities, not in addition to.

Good find!

I'm assuming one or both of you must have me on block... already mentioned that January 16th and drew quoted it in the response...
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Re: True Atlantean Undead Slayer save vs. Magic

Unread post by dragonfett »

Axelmania wrote:
dragonfett wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The text isn't within 12, it precedes the list (beginning with 1.) which 12 is part of.


Exactly what do you mean?


My message was following this exchange:
Axelmania wrote:Note that the Slayers' "12. Other Bonuses" is at the end of a list called "Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers".

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I have a 4th printing book and there is no "Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers" text in it within #12.


I wrote 12 was at the end of a list, drew responded that the text was not within 12, I figure because he misread my statement.

Page 97 of Atlantis has a list of 1. to 12. called "Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers". This big-fonded text follows a line break after the first paragraph which ends in the bolded sentence "Also see the section on Atlantis and True Atlanteans for more details.

All items 1. to 12. are "Atlantean Characteristics".

This indicates it is a modifier of the list on page 16 titled "Special Abilities & Characteristics Common to True Atlanteans".

Page 16 also helpfully indicates that Slayers and Stone Masters "these abilities are slightly different".

Meaning that it is a replacement list, not a supplementary list.

Which also means you need to do a bit of reverse-engineering to play a Stone Master.

An elf who becomes a Stone Master for example does not get +2 to save vs magic and +6 to save vs horror factor.

They would get no bonus vs magic, and reasonably a +2 to save vs horror factor, since that is the difference between the Atlantean RCC and the Master OCC. That's if you want to give them anything at all.

They would also not be able to sense ley lines, sense rifts, or ley line phase, since that is just relisting the racial powers.

Worst of all, since the ability to "operate dimensional pyramids" is racial, at best a non-Atlantean Stone Master could be assumed to have a 10% skill in that, since that's the difference between the 30% base all Atlanteans have and the 40% base the stone masters have.

Perhaps higher than 10 if you have a high IQ.

You could arguably exclude pyramid operation and HF save altogether (that's just my house ruling since it seems reasonable to give other races the difference of abilities) and so non-Atlantean Stone Masters might be incapable of operating pyramids, and would only be helpful in assisting in their building.

This could help explain the usefulness of the Sunaj to the Splugorth empire. Even though all Splugorth are natural stone masters, if they don't get the racial abilities of Atlanteans and can't operate the pyramids, they would need Atlantean servants to serve in that respect.

eliakon wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Having finnally taken time to check my book, this is what it actually says at the start

"Atlantean Characteristics as they apply to Undead Slayers"

So I was wrong, the bonuses and such listed to Undead Slayers are in the place of the standard RCC bonuses and abilities, not in addition to.

Good find!

I'm assuming one or both of you must have me on block... already mentioned that January 16th and drew quoted it in the response...


Ok, now I understand what you meant. The way you had typed it initially had me a bit confused is all.
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