exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

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exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Well, they can parry hand to hand attacks, but they can do a lot of damage in the time it takes to get THAT close, so I'm talking about ranged attacks.

The Rifts Conversion Book on page 10 had a section called "Dodging and Parrying Energy Weapons" and its 7th paragraph (after the old "O.C.C. Dodge and Parry Note") mentions:

The Crazies, Juicer, Borg, Simvan Warrior, Cyber-Knight, Dragon and those operating power armor or bots (excluding the Glitter Boy) can attempt to parry a bullet or a single energy blast if they have a suitable item/shield with which to parry


Interesting pluralization dichotomy between the first two... it doesn't go into much detail about what items besides shields are suitable for that task, but in the combat example on page 11, in Five: Antagonist Y shoots back with his Coalition laser pistol (his third attack or melee action) Antagonist X parries using a vibro-blade, which sets the example that it is acceptable to use vibro-blades to parry energy blasts. I'm guessing bullets too, since lasers are faster and possibly narrower than a bullet.

I think it would be interesting to zero in on the ramifications of a Glitter Boy's inability to parry and what that means for them. Namely, when they are battling any of these opponents... can you parry a boom gun blast?

It seems to operate like a single shot, but should we get particular with the word "bullet" and exclude rail gun rounds and not consider them to be bullets?

Page 10 gives a list of things which can't be parried:
Grenades, missiles, explosives and other area affect weapons/damage cannot be parried


Rail guns are conspicuously absent from that list for such a major weapon in the RMB. Rail guns do not appear to be treated as area affect weapons. This leads me to think they would be considered 'bullet' weapons.

Most rail guns fire bursts so they wouldn't be considered 'single bullet' but the way boom gun rounds get treated, they do seem that way, even if the round does flechette into 200 pieces at some point.

Does anyone recall if we're told at what point in time it splits? Is that when it is fired, or when it hits? If the former, it would seem to be too spread to be counted as one bullet (sort of like shot from a shotgun) but if it's the latter, then if it split after a parry redirected, it wouldn't matter too much.

"Disadvantages Playing a Glitter Boy" on page 15 of the Conversion Book did reference the boom gun bursting...
if the Glitter Boy has engaged the recoil suppression system, which engages in an instant, and is thus properly secured, he can fire one accurate and devastating burst after another (+1 to strike for an aimed burst and an additional +2 boom gun bonus)


The RMB 221 illustration is labelled "100 rounds of 20,00 slugs" then "50 slugs with 3 more sets of 50 behind them" and describes the AMMUNITION as having a 7" shell casing with a fall-away sheath "holding 200 slugs".

So I suppose each shot of 1 round could be considered a burst of 200 slugs... but if you want to play that way (counts as a burst, so it can't be parried) then using the +1 to strike for aimed bursts instead of the +3 to strike for aimed shots should be mandatory.

This would also mean, per the conversion book's updated rules on Shooting Wild (page 9), that anybody without the WP Heavy needed to use the Boom Gun, would fire Wild (-6 to strike) with the Boom Gun. This wouldn't harm the Glitter Boy OCC but would harm any random person who piloted it... which doesn't seem like a bad thing.

Conversion Book Revised page 19 "Parrying Energy Blasts" appears to have narrowed the possibilities. It made you -10 to parry at less than 400 feet and -12 to parry at more than 500 feet, so the only place you could parry without penalty is the sweet spot from 401 to 499 feet. Given that the section is about "Energy Blasts", I don't believe it applies to bullets and so revised would have to defer to the original conversion book's rules on the list of people who can bullet-parry.

Page 33 of the Game Master Guide does have this:
Are there any types of physical attacks you cannot parry? Like a dragon's bite?

Definitely. A parry is generally used to deflect or physically block an attack, so if an attack can not be deflected or blocked, it cannot be parried. This means that falling boulders, energy blasts, bullets, etc., cannot be parried.

Since it uses the plural "bullets" though, it actually does not contradict the Conversion Book, because it only ever allowed a SINGLE bullet to be parried. Multiple bullets (bursts) were never parryable.

Same with single energy blasts, this does absolutely nothing to contradict that since it does not say a single energy blast cannot be parried.

For the same reason, you should be able to parry a single falling boulder, assuming you're reasonably strong enough. GM judgement is always required on what's realistic. Like RAW a 3 ft gnome with a PS of 3 could parry a power punch from an NGR Devastator, but that's a case where GM should intervene and say "no, that doesn't seem plausible".

A Devastator could easily parry a falling boulder, but a normal human couldn't due to the weight, GM judgement would be needed.

A Devastator could not parry multiple falling boulders though, because that would work like a burst and be too many to keep track of.

Apparently the only multi-strike that you can parry is melee attacks, since a Quadruple-Strike from a Warrior/Super-Warrior from Xiticix Invasion can be blocked with a single parry.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.

I always looked at the glitterboy boom gun, and the shemarrian railguns (because they work the same) as kind of interesting hybrid weapons.

most railguns are essentially electromagnetically boosted machineguns (in palladium)
the boomgun, and shemarrian railguns are as Nekira mentioned more of a shotgun, however the clusters of flechette are boosted en mass so the gun treats them more as a single round.
The big question is: are they more of a shotgun shell, a "canister round" or a proximity fused airburst round.
its a rather relevant question because it affects some aspects of damage dealing, and dealing with the attack. for instance if its more of a "shotgun" blast then at close range it will be closer to a slug effect, wheras at ~maximum range they would be more of an area effect attack.
on the other hand if they are more like an airburst round they will essentially always have a more or less "fixed" burst radius as long as they deploy correctly.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.


A rail shotgun with no spread :( Then again buckshot in the game has no spread either does it?
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

i've generally chalked it uop to the "sabot" is not really a regular sabot, it is actually the outer casing to a timed airburst shell, which gets set to burst and release those rods near the target, the range setting happening automatically during aiming. (would explain the camera and laser looking bit above the barrel. range finder and video feed the computer uses to set the timer on the shell for distance and cover.)
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.


A rail shotgun with no spread :( Then again buckshot in the game has no spread either does it?


There's a few new shotguns introduced in the newer books like NG1 and Triax 2 that have spread.

There's also the Grapeshot Rifle in Warlords of Russia that is explictly a timed airburst scattershot, with an adjustbale airburst so you can have it burst anywhere along the line you want.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by tsh77769 »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.


I disagree with that for the following reasons...

What constitutes a burst is not about what type of ammo you fire but rather the number of recoil impulses you have to deal with.

For example your shotgun fires a single round of buckshot. Yes, the round will put multiple holes from multiple projectiles into the target assuming you hit. However, the shooter experiences one recoil impulse not several smaller ones.

By contrast your sub machine gun on full auto will give you multiple recoil impulses which you will have to control.

I would therefore claim that you can get a +3 to strike aimed single round fired bonus with a shotgun but obviously an SMG on full auto would be a +1 to strike burst.

Useless trivia for the day: The largest user of combat or police shotguns after the US is ITALY!? Most of the rest of the world prefers SMG's over shotguns.

Personally, I far prefer SMG's.

tsh77769
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

tsh77769 wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.


I disagree with that for the following reasons...

What constitutes a burst is not about what type of ammo you fire but rather the number of recoil impulses you have to deal with.

For example your shotgun fires a single round of buckshot. Yes, the round will put multiple holes from multiple projectiles into the target assuming you hit. However, the shooter experiences one recoil impulse not several smaller ones.

By contrast your sub machine gun on full auto will give you multiple recoil impulses which you will have to control.

I would therefore claim that you can get a +3 to strike aimed single round fired bonus with a shotgun but obviously an SMG on full auto would be a +1 to strike burst.

Useless trivia for the day: The largest user of combat or police shotguns after the US is ITALY!? Most of the rest of the world prefers SMG's over shotguns.

Personally, I far prefer SMG's.

tsh77769


I agree that Boom Gun's should not count as bursts, but that is how the books discribe them.

Personally i'd give boom guns single shot as a houserule. If I ever found a player wanting to play one :lol:
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Perhaps the boomgun kicks like a burst because each row of 50 within the 200 is accelerated a bit after each other as the round breaks down as it travels down the barrel?
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
tsh77769 wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.


I disagree with that for the following reasons...

What constitutes a burst is not about what type of ammo you fire but rather the number of recoil impulses you have to deal with.

For example your shotgun fires a single round of buckshot. Yes, the round will put multiple holes from multiple projectiles into the target assuming you hit. However, the shooter experiences one recoil impulse not several smaller ones.

By contrast your sub machine gun on full auto will give you multiple recoil impulses which you will have to control.

I would therefore claim that you can get a +3 to strike aimed single round fired bonus with a shotgun but obviously an SMG on full auto would be a +1 to strike burst.

Useless trivia for the day: The largest user of combat or police shotguns after the US is ITALY!? Most of the rest of the world prefers SMG's over shotguns.

Personally, I far prefer SMG's.

tsh77769


I agree that Boom Gun's should not count as bursts, but that is how the books discribe them.

Personally i'd give boom guns single shot as a houserule. If I ever found a player wanting to play one :lol:

Nekira you are not correct, the books do not describe them as a burst but a blast. I've looked at the RMB (hardcover), RUE (hardcover), WB8, WB5, WB9, and WB22 plus Mercenaries, SB1o, MiO, MercOps looking at the flechette style weapons like the Boomgun. They all consider it a round or blast. I might have missed some (quick search, incomplete library, etc), but it does seem that the canister firing weapons are not considered bursts. Do you have specific page references?

I did find an entry in MiO (pg89) for a Railgun that fires canisters and considers it a burst in damage, but they also have other railgun systems (pg83 & pg86) that consider them on a per blast basis. Even the Flechette weapons in MiO (pg88-9) don't describe it as a burst. WB9 (SA2) does have flechette weapons that can burst from the Arkhons, but that is identified as a specific mode of operation (one of which is described as a burst).
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.


A rail shotgun with no spread :( Then again buckshot in the game has no spread either does it?


There's a few new shotguns introduced in the newer books like NG1 and Triax 2 that have spread.

There's also the Grapeshot Rifle in Warlords of Russia that is explictly a timed airburst scattershot, with an adjustbale airburst so you can have it burst anywhere along the line you want.


I don't remember those, I'm gonna have to go read again. Thanks Munchkin Fairy... still miss your website. :(
Suprised they didn't just make a retro rule that all prior shotguns could use slugs for their listed damage or spread area for a reduction in damage, and specifically list the GB as "except for the GB who's shot already was spread shot, just add the AOE." But then we'd have people saying that they're going to load up the boomgun with slugs.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

tsh77769 wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.


I disagree with that for the following reasons...

What constitutes a burst is not about what type of ammo you fire but rather the number of recoil impulses you have to deal with.

For example your shotgun fires a single round of buckshot. Yes, the round will put multiple holes from multiple projectiles into the target assuming you hit. However, the shooter experiences one recoil impulse not several smaller ones.

By contrast your sub machine gun on full auto will give you multiple recoil impulses which you will have to control.

I would therefore claim that you can get a +3 to strike aimed single round fired bonus with a shotgun but obviously an SMG on full auto would be a +1 to strike burst.

Useless trivia for the day: The largest user of combat or police shotguns after the US is ITALY!? Most of the rest of the world prefers SMG's over shotguns.

Personally, I far prefer SMG's.

tsh77769


I disagree IRL a HK G11 fires a three round burst and the recoil isn't felt until the third round is already leaving the barrel, yet it is still a burst.

Definition of burst fire: In automatic firearms, burst mode or burst fire is a firing mode enabling the shooter to fire a predetermined number of rounds, usually two or three rounds on hand held weapons and over 100 on anti-aircraft weapons, with a single pull of the trigger.

Definition of burst: (of a container) break suddenly and violently apart, spilling the contents, typically as a result of an impact or internal pressure.

So while the GB's BG shot can still be technically considered a burst it can not be technically considered a burst shot except that it is a shot that burst apart and therefore could be figuratively described as a burst shot.

But the BG is a semi-auto weapon and not capable of automatic fire so even with some sort of burst limiter on it wouldn't do anything as a single shot from a semi-auto weapon can never be a burst.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

This is why I house ruled the boomgun like so.

I gave it two different types of ammunition. The first is 3d6x10 damage round, but it isn't fletchette. It has the armor piercing quality (like missiles) and is a solid penetrator (FSDS) weighing about 4kg. The flechette round I give a 15' wide cone measured about 30' from the target (the cone is smaller if you are at closer ranges). Anything in that area gets hit for 2d4x10.

Most GB's in my games have a dual stack mag, with a hopper that can alternate ammunition depending on the pilot's needs.

But off the House Rules for now: the weapon is semi-automatic, so you can aim and get single shot bonuses. As to parrying, there's a little bit of case by case if you're playing a crazy or juicer, something with super reflexes, where they might parry if the GM rules the casing hasn't burst yet. Though honestly, they both have automatic dodge, parrying at those kinds of penalties by comparison seems like asking for trouble.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

ShadowLogan wrote:Nekira you are not correct, the books do not describe them as a burst but a blast. I've looked at the RMB (hardcover), RUE (hardcover), WB8, WB5, WB9, and WB22 plus Mercenaries, SB1o, MiO, MercOps looking at the flechette style weapons like the Boomgun. They all consider it a round or blast. I might have missed some (quick search, incomplete library, etc), but it does seem that the canister firing weapons are not considered bursts. Do you have specific page references?

Nekira was responding to my original post where I pointed out the quote from page 15 of the Conversion Book:

    if the Glitter Boy has engaged the recoil suppression system, which engages in an instant, and is thus properly secured, he can fire one accurate and devastating burst after another (+1 to strike for an aimed burst and an additional +2 boom gun bonus)

It's clear there is a singular boom gun round, but it is also clear that this round contains 50 slugs with 3 more sets of 50 behind them. It had 100 rounds of 200 slugs (20,000 slugs) originally, with RUE dectupling that to 1000 rounds of 200 slugs (200,000 slugs)

So the blast wound seem to be 1 round which bursts 200 slugs.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by tsh77769 »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
tsh77769 wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Each glitter boy shot is a burst of 200 slugs. it's really just a rail-shotgun on a ludicrious scale.

This does mean that they must use burst rules and not single-shot rules. which is fitting as the glitter boy shots are discribed as "bursts" here and there throughout the books and in the excerpts.


I disagree with that for the following reasons...

What constitutes a burst is not about what type of ammo you fire but rather the number of recoil impulses you have to deal with.

For example your shotgun fires a single round of buckshot. Yes, the round will put multiple holes from multiple projectiles into the target assuming you hit. However, the shooter experiences one recoil impulse not several smaller ones.

By contrast your sub machine gun on full auto will give you multiple recoil impulses which you will have to control.

I would therefore claim that you can get a +3 to strike aimed single round fired bonus with a shotgun but obviously an SMG on full auto would be a +1 to strike burst.

Useless trivia for the day: The largest user of combat or police shotguns after the US is ITALY!? Most of the rest of the world prefers SMG's over shotguns.

Personally, I far prefer SMG's.

tsh77769


I disagree IRL a HK G11 fires a three round burst and the recoil isn't felt until the third round is already leaving the barrel, yet it is still a burst.

Definition of burst fire: In automatic firearms, burst mode or burst fire is a firing mode enabling the shooter to fire a predetermined number of rounds, usually two or three rounds on hand held weapons and over 100 on anti-aircraft weapons, with a single pull of the trigger.

Definition of burst: (of a container) break suddenly and violently apart, spilling the contents, typically as a result of an impact or internal pressure.

So while the GB's BG shot can still be technically considered a burst it can not be technically considered a burst shot except that it is a shot that burst apart and therefore could be figuratively described as a burst shot.

But the BG is a semi-auto weapon and not capable of automatic fire so even with some sort of burst limiter on it wouldn't do anything as a single shot from a semi-auto weapon can never be a burst.


Your choice of the HKG11 for your argument is amusing precisely because it is the very exception that proves the rule. The only other weapon in recent times to use a similar concept (and arguably quite superior due to its use of standard issue off the shelf conventional ammo rather than a proprietary one) is AN94 Nikonov. So there are TWO weapons, amongst THOUSANDS that function as you described.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Exceptions don't prove rules. Not a good expression. You are simply commenting on popular weapon types not rules.

So, in reference to the title there seems two options:

1) treat boom gun round blast s a single shot, you can parry it, but better strike bonuses

2) treat boom gun round blast as a burst of flechettes, you can't parry it, but reduced strike bonuses
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Really? Why can't it be option 3? The Savoy doesn't discard until close to target making it a single shot with a single kick when fired and a small cone of death when it nears the target making the target unable to parry without an shield.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Mostly because the rules don't discuss an option 3, you're either a burst or you aren't.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Axelmania wrote:Mostly because the rules don't discuss an option 3, you're either a burst or you aren't.

Well the rules don't discuss the BG being a burst or blast. It isn't in the weapons stat section nor is the shotgun blast. By RAW and not flavor text (aka fluff) the gun is a single high powered shot
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

I'm getting the impression you haven't looked at the text I am referring to. The conversion book discussion of glitterboys explicitly mentions the numerical bonus being +1 due to it being a burst. I struggle to see how that part can be considered fluff.

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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Axelmania wrote:I'm getting the impression you haven't looked at the text I am referring to. The conversion book discussion of glitterboys explicitly mentions the numerical bonus being +1 due to it being a burst. I struggle to see how that part can be considered fluff.

All text is significant. Flavorful text does not mean not authoritative. Lacking crunch does not mean it doesn't define the game and the world Kevin built.


Nope didn't see that. I'll check again. The crunch out weighs and overrules the fluff though not the other way around.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

This is a false dichotomy. Numbers alone or words alone are useless. One doesn't hold authority over the other. All are canon and all are authority. All that matters is context. Like direct statements vs "optional" designated things, or differentiating between perceptions of NPCs vs perceptions of the author.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

RUE, p72, right column:
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as a one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible!


The italic emphasis is in the original text.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Mack wrote:RUE, p72, right column:
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as a one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible!


The italic emphasis is in the original text.

I don't disagree Mack, what that means is that as far as firing the boomgun is concerned each shot is the same as firing a single round, or shot/shell from a shotgun, or other firearm.

the question that gets people arguing (at least sometimes) is whether the attack when it hits you is treated as more of a single shot/slug, a burst, or a "blast" of flechette (essentially a whole bunch of needles)

Personally I tend to treat it like an explosion of needles thus its difficult to impossible to successfully parry, as its spread across space and time as its hitting you (not much time only a fraction of a second, but some flechettes will be a small distance ahead or behind each other.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

guardiandashi wrote:
Mack wrote:RUE, p72, right column:
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as a one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible!


The italic emphasis is in the original text.

I don't disagree Mack, what that means is that as far as firing the boomgun is concerned each shot is the same as firing a single round, or shot/shell from a shotgun, or other firearm.

the question that gets people arguing (at least sometimes) is whether the attack when it hits you is treated as more of a single shot/slug, a burst, or a "blast" of flechette (essentially a whole bunch of needles)

Personally I tend to treat it like an explosion of needles thus its difficult to impossible to successfully parry, as its spread across space and time as its hitting you (not much time only a fraction of a second, but some flechettes will be a small distance ahead or behind each other.

The answer depends on one's perspective:
-- To the GB, it's a single shot.
-- To the target, it's a burst.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Worth noting that the GB in Ultimate is basically a new version with 10x the ammo capacity so it having different RoF doesn't resolve how to evaluate the original version or all the GB variants out there.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Axelmania wrote:I'm getting the impression you haven't looked at the text I am referring to. The conversion book discussion of glitterboys explicitly mentions the numerical bonus being +1 due to it being a burst. I struggle to see how that part can be considered fluff.

All text is significant. Flavorful text does not mean not authoritative. Lacking crunch does not mean it doesn't define the game and the world Kevin built.


This is in CB1, not CB1 Revised.

Like VK, or RMB...

CB1 is not canon and doesn't apply.

There is no such passage in CB1r, and as Mack pointed out, page 72 of RUE makes it abundantly clear that its a single shot.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

No, RUE still calls it a blast, CB established a blast can be a burst.

CB was split up into CBR/Dark with some errata cut to make space for new content. That doesn't in any way disqualify the legitimacy of earlier things. Sky King.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

ok rereading the OP's first bit.. it wasn't about whether you can parry a GB's boomgun shot... it was pointing the book says that a GB itself cannot parry attacks directed at it.

why not?
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Axelmania wrote:No, RUE still calls it a blast,


And outright says it is NOT a burst.

Mack wrote:RUE, p72, right column:
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as a one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible!


The italic emphasis is in the original text.


CB established a blast can be a burst.


And since CB1 has been revised, and the text you're referring to removed, this is irrelevant. The old CB1 can't be canon as it is no longer in print, and anyone coming to the game now cant use it because they cannot obtain it. And it is contradicted anyway. (Frequently, sometimes within itself).

CB was split up into CBR/Dark with some errata cut to make space for new content.


And a ton of that content was altered and updated (Like Wolfen getting nerfed). The removal of the text you're trying to cling to was not an accident. It was done on purpose.

That doesn't in any way disqualify the legitimacy of earlier things. Sky King.


Was in the GMG after RMB became non-canon, and is now in NG 1 or 2 (i dont recall which).

And, if during the interim of RMB not existing, a GM had told a player that he could not use this vehicle that didn't exist in any canon material, he'd have been 100% correct. Though i do believe RMB was still the core book when the GMG came out, so that's covered.

To use an analogy, what you're trying to claim is rather like someone who played AD&D back in the day claiming that just because there's no Assassin class in AD&D 2nd Edition, the 1st Edition class is still usable.

Which is absurd, as it was cut on purpose. The new replaces the old. The crunch overrides the fluff. (In general, not specifically referencing the GBK Missile thing here; not that we need to, i can rather easily, when i get home week after next from business, find about 100 fluff-related items that outright contradict how the rules work).
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Mack wrote:RUE, p72, right column:
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as a one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible!


The italic emphasis is in the original text.

Thanks. Simply means booming blast is a descriptor and likely meant to describe the Boom in conjunction with the shot rather than how the shot works.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

glitterboy2098 wrote:ok rereading the OP's first bit.. it wasn't about whether you can parry a GB's boomgun shot... it was pointing the book says that a GB itself cannot parry attacks directed at it.

why not?


The note in CB didn't really explain why, I figured because it was a bulky robot-like power armor, slower than a SAMAS or something. Of course, at the time CB came out, I don't know what other books were out... maybe the Sourcebook? I would be surprised if the Ultimax was more mobile than the GB and I think it was present in SB, the first taste of NGR things to come.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Axelmania wrote:No, RUE still calls it a blast,
And outright says it is NOT a burst.

I'm not seeing that. "Bursts... are not possible" is either saying you can't burst with a blast which is already designed as a burst (no further multiplying) or emphasis on the plural... burstS. There are short, long and full bursts normally, 3 kinds of burstS, but the boom gun only has 1 kind.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And since CB1 has been revised, and the text you're referring to removed, this is irrelevant. The old CB1 can't be canon as it is no longer in print, and anyone coming to the game now cant use it because they cannot obtain it. And it is contradicted anyway. (Frequently, sometimes within itself).

1) things being cut to clear space for new content in later editions does not negate their relevance (example: FoM spells)
2) not being in print does not decanonize official content
3) people being unable to obtain a book does not decanonize official content
4) no, it is not contradicted, CB makes it clear by referring to 'aimed burst' immediately after calling it a 'blast'. This is a clarification, not a contradiction: a blast can be a burst.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And a ton of that content was altered and updated (Like Wolfen getting nerfed). The removal of the text you're trying to cling to was not an accident. It was done on purpose.

The removal of the "Disadvantages to Playing a Glitter Boy" essay does not mean there are suddenly no disadvantages to playing a Glitter Boy.

The essay is still canon, it just had to be cut to keep the page count of the revised edition down.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Was in the GMG after RMB became non-canon, and is now in NG 1 or 2 (i dont recall which).

Convenient, but not required to have it remain canon. You can still play the classic Headhunter OCC from the Rifts RPG even though Ultimate cut that for space because they wanted to include a modified Techno-Warrior subclass from Canada instead.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And, if during the interim of RMB not existing, a GM had told a player that he could not use this vehicle that didn't exist in any canon material, he'd have been 100% correct.

Nope. There's a big difference between changing rules and simply cutting things for space. The latter is not an official condemnation or decanonization.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:To use an analogy, what you're trying to claim is rather like someone who played AD&D back in the day claiming that just because there's no Assassin class in AD&D 2nd Edition, the 1st Edition class is still usable.

I'm not aware of how much it changed between 1 and 2, my toe-dip into that system was getting the 3rd.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Which is absurd, as it was cut on purpose. The new replaces the old. The crunch overrides the fluff. (In general, not specifically referencing the GBK Missile thing here; not that we need to, i can rather easily, when i get home week after next from business, find about 100 fluff-related items that outright contradict how the rules work).

The new supplements the old. Unless your new book is literally saying 'you can't use anything from the old book', you're just making this up.

Due to the missile thread being locked with mod asking us to avoid rehashing it unless new evidence is found, any new threads you make on your fluff v. crunch analysis (which does sound interesting, I'd like to participate) should probable exclude that.

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Mack wrote:RUE, p72, right column:
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as a one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible!


The italic emphasis is in the original text.

Thanks. Simply means booming blast is a descriptor and likely meant to describe the Boom in conjunction with the shot rather than how the shot works.


It's not as if 'blast' has any clear parameters, so I'm not sure it railroads how it works.

The BASANP text was present in RMB and yet CB clarified it is an aimed burst (+1 to strike instead of +3 for aimed single shots) so that clarification also applies to RUE's reprint of that text.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Axelmania wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Axelmania wrote:No, RUE still calls it a blast,
And outright says it is NOT a burst.

I'm not seeing that. "Bursts... are not possible" is either saying you can't burst with a blast which is already designed as a burst (no further multiplying) or emphasis on the plural... burstS. There are short, long and full bursts normally, 3 kinds of burstS, but the boom gun only has 1 kind.


No, there aren't. There are no short, long, and full bursts in RUE. Gone with RMB.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And since CB1 has been revised, and the text you're referring to removed, this is irrelevant. The old CB1 can't be canon as it is no longer in print, and anyone coming to the game now cant use it because they cannot obtain it. And it is contradicted anyway. (Frequently, sometimes within itself).

1) things being cut to clear space for new content in later editions does not negate their relevance (example: FoM spells)


Yeah, it really does. The FoM spells still exist because they are in the Book of Magic. They aren't "later editions" - they are REVISED REPLACEMENTS. The old, non-revised version of FoM is no longer in print. The game system has to be examined as if the entire group is new players who just found the game. They COULD NOT play by the "old" versions of the books because they cannot get them as they are no longer printed or sold outside of the used market or stores who for some reason still have old books on the shelf - not that there are really that many stores even carrying Palladium on the shelf anymore.

2) not being in print does not decanonize official content


Yes, it really does. If people playing your game cannot acquire the content, then it effectively DOES NOT EXIST. However, even IF your foolish assertion were true... all the books we're talking about have been actively REPLACED by revised editions. They are not merely out of print - they are out of print AND HAVE BEEN REPLACED with newer, more current books.

3) people being unable to obtain a book does not decanonize official content


Unable to obtain it because you simply cant find it, no. Unable to obtain it because it has been removed from the market, is no longer in print, and has been replaced by an updated version most certainly does. If new players

4) no, it is not contradicted, CB makes it clear by referring to 'aimed burst' immediately after calling it a 'blast'. This is a clarification, not a contradiction: a blast can be a burst.


CB1 is not canon. CB1r is. CB1 is out of print and has been replaced. Nothing in that book is canon. Or is it your assertion that i can still play a Wolfen that gets an extra attack per round, even though CB1r clearly has that removed? Because if that is your argument - we've got nothing to talk about. You're not even living on the same planet with the rest of us.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And a ton of that content was altered and updated (Like Wolfen getting nerfed). The removal of the text you're trying to cling to was not an accident. It was done on purpose.

The removal of the "Disadvantages to Playing a Glitter Boy" essay does not mean there are suddenly no disadvantages to playing a Glitter Boy.


If those disadvantages dont exist in any canon source, then yeah, they're gone. Suck it up, buttercup. (There are still plenty of disadvantages to playing a GB).

The essay is still canon, it just had to be cut to keep the page count of the revised edition down.


Well, for one, there's absolutely nothing to back up your claim in the last sentence, as nothing was added to the CB1r - just stuff being removed (Dragons, for instance, demons, etc). There wasn't an issue with the page count.

Secondly, it's not canon. No player new to the game could acquire that. They literally CANT play by it because it isn't available. It's gone. In fact, if it was going to be kept, it would have been added to the description in RUE. Guess what, it wasn't.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Was in the GMG after RMB became non-canon, and is now in NG 1 or 2 (i dont recall which).

Convenient, but not required to have it remain canon. You can still play the classic Headhunter OCC from the Rifts RPG even though Ultimate cut that for space because they wanted to include a modified Techno-Warrior subclass from Canada instead.


Actually, it absolutely IS required to have it remain canon before NG (1/2?). Again, if there is no book in print that is canon that has the statistics, players couldn't have them. How dense are you?

And uh.. no, you can't play the old OCC. Because it doesn't exist. There is no canon material on it. RMB is not canon. It has been replaced by RUE. The core rulebook cannot depend on an older edition of the core rulebook. That would be like saying you need the 1st Edition AD&D PHB to play 2nd Edition. Outright absurdity.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And, if during the interim of RMB not existing, a GM had told a player that he could not use this vehicle that didn't exist in any canon material, he'd have been 100% correct.

Nope. There's a big difference between changing rules and simply cutting things for space. The latter is not an official condemnation or decanonization.


If there is no canon source remaining that has the info - then yeah, it actually is. If i go onto Palladium's website right now, and order every book available, i cannot get the info; it is no longer canon or usable. A new player cant play by it if it doesn't exist.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:To use an analogy, what you're trying to claim is rather like someone who played AD&D back in the day claiming that just because there's no Assassin class in AD&D 2nd Edition, the 1st Edition class is still usable.

I'm not aware of how much it changed between 1 and 2, my toe-dip into that system was getting the 3rd.


Which is relevant... how? Do you not even understand the basic concept being discussed? It's starting to appear that you dont.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Which is absurd, as it was cut on purpose. The new replaces the old. The crunch overrides the fluff. (In general, not specifically referencing the GBK Missile thing here; not that we need to, i can rather easily, when i get home week after next from business, find about 100 fluff-related items that outright contradict how the rules work).

The new supplements the old. Unless your new book is literally saying 'you can't use anything from the old book', you're just making this up.


No, the new replaces the old. VKr outright replaces VK. SB1r outright replaces SB1. They are revised, replacement books. If stuff is removed, it's gone, unless it gets reprinted somewhere else (see: FoM and Book of Magic). RUE outright replaces RMB. nothing in RMB is canon anymore, unless it continues into RUE. Stuff that was removed was removed on purpose.

Due to the missile thread being locked with mod asking us to avoid rehashing it unless new evidence is found, any new threads you make on your fluff v. crunch analysis (which does sound interesting, I'd like to participate) should probable exclude that.


I dont intend to include it because you're wrong and literally no one agrees with you, not even Palladium staff and writers, but not because im afraid of what laughably is called "moderation" around here. If i cant post on Palladium's forums, it's not going to ruin my day. And it will probably lead to another FCC fine on their ISP and me paying off my Mini-van on their ISPs (or, at least, their insurance companies) dime, so "moderate" away.

However, yes, when i can get home, and get to my books, i'd be happy to go over where the fluff violates the game mechanics in absurd ways.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Mack wrote:RUE, p72, right column:
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as a one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible!


The italic emphasis is in the original text.

Thanks. Simply means booming blast is a descriptor and likely meant to describe the Boom in conjunction with the shot rather than how the shot works.


It's not as if 'blast' has any clear parameters, so I'm not sure it railroads how it works.

The BASANP text was present in RMB and yet CB clarified it is an aimed burst (+1 to strike instead of +3 for aimed single shots) so that clarification also applies to RUE's reprint of that text.


And CB is gone. Replaced. Removed. Any clarifications they wanted to keep, they had ample space, as well as space to simply put it in even newer books where it was relevant (Free Quebec, Triax 2, RUE) that have the stats and rules for the Glitter Boy presented. (Like they did in FQ when they nerfed the sword on the T-550 to 3D6MD instead of the 5D6MD that was printed in Triax 1).

It cant fire bursts, and it cant fire sprays, and there is no canon rule that says it is an "aimed burst" - which is absurd anyway, because otherwise shotguns fire "aimed bursts" when firing anything other than solid slug, and that is CLEARLY not the case.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

You have no proof supporting the theory you have that the boomgun blast is not a burst. The statement you are relying on was present in 1990. It simply means something already a burst can't burst. Kevin Siembieda clearly explained they do aimed bursts (as opposed to a wild burst) in his essay which compliments the RMB text unchanged 15 years later.

Clearly a flechette round of 200 (4 rows of 50) slugs is bursted. It is one object going in, but not going out. It is a burst of two hundred slugs.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Axelmania wrote:You have no proof supporting the theory you have that the boomgun blast is not a burst. The statement you are relying on was present in 1990. It simply means something already a burst can't burst. Kevin Siembieda clearly explained they do aimed bursts (as opposed to a wild burst) in his essay which compliments the RMB text unchanged 15 years later.

Clearly a flechette round of 200 (4 rows of 50) slugs is bursted. It is one object going in, but not going out. It is a burst of two hundred slugs.

no it is not

it is exactly like a shotgun blast. the difference is a blast is a number of essentially simultaneous attacks by submunitions, a burst is numerous sequential shots.

look at it this way, EVERY railgun except 2, (well 3 as of shemarrian nation) is effectively a magnetically boosted machine gun they fire a number of bullets 1 at a time so a samas railgun when you pull the trigger fires 40 rounds one after another, bang 1, bang 2, bang 3... bang 40

the glitterboy boom gun, and the shemarrian railguns (the 6000, and 4000) fire a rail "shotgun" load the round BOOM, and all 200 submuntitions go down the barrel AT the same time!
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Where exactly does it say these other railguns fire bullets 1 at a time? I recall many later railguns not even bothering to list individual bullet damage. It could conceivably be 2 or 4 at a time exiting the barrel in some cases, for all we know.

The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Axelmania wrote:This is a false dichotomy. Numbers alone or words alone are useless. One doesn't hold authority over the other. All are canon and all are authority. All that matters is context. Like direct statements vs "optional" designated things, or differentiating between perceptions of NPCs vs perceptions of the author.

Well NPCs have no perception other than the author... unless your talking your NPCs... they don't count toward Canon
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Axelmania wrote:Where exactly does it say these other railguns fire bullets 1 at a time? I recall many later railguns not even bothering to list individual bullet damage. It could conceivably be 2 or 4 at a time exiting the barrel in some cases, for all we know.

The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rifts+g ... 5418989903

if you notice the artwork, ALL the flechettes are in 1 "fall away carrier" commonly called a sabot but I consider the boomgun to be a rail boosted round (most likely a coilgun but shrug) because the length of the round doesn't addup, if you look at the image the flechettes are 1 inch long, which means the "round" ie the portion that goes down the barrel and hits targets is ~4 inches long. IMO most of the other 3 inches of the shells is some form of gunpowder that is detonated when the round is fired.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


I think you mean single sabot round. Flechette is French for dart, sabot is French for shoe. In this case the BG launches a shoe filled with 200 darts... But the drawing make them either rods or blades since we don't get a 3d of the "flechette" so they'd more accurately be barre or lame in french as they are not a slug as a slug is most likely derived from the word meaning a lead bit, less likely the animal as the slug left its shell. The "flechette" are neither bits of lead or rounds having left their shell if anything objects coming from a sabot, if they were to derive it in the same manner as the shelless snail, should be a pied as that is what comes out of a sabot
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Axelmania wrote:Where exactly does it say these other railguns fire bullets 1 at a time? I recall many later railguns not even bothering to list individual bullet damage. It could conceivably be 2 or 4 at a time exiting the barrel in some cases, for all we know.

The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


Either a railguns or coilgun must fire individual rounds unless the rounds are carried in a sabot. In the case of a coil/gauss gun if all of the rounds don't pass exactly through the center of the coil they will be attracted to the side of the barrel quickly damaging the barrel. In the case of a railguns if two rounds are pushed between the rails there may be welding turning them into one round or more likely each round acts as a separate conductor with neither receiving the oppositional Lorenz finishing with the rails being welded to the rounds which weld to each other.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

guardiandashi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Where exactly does it say these other railguns fire bullets 1 at a time? I recall many later railguns not even bothering to list individual bullet damage. It could conceivably be 2 or 4 at a time exiting the barrel in some cases, for all we know.

The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rifts+g ... 5418989903

if you notice the artwork, ALL the flechettes are in 1 "fall away carrier" commonly called a sabot but I consider the boomgun to be a rail boosted round (most likely a coilgun but shrug) because the length of the round doesn't addup, if you look at the image the flechettes are 1 inch long, which means the "round" ie the portion that goes down the barrel and hits targets is ~4 inches long. IMO most of the other 3 inches of the shells is some form of gunpowder that is detonated when the round is fired.


It isn't a rail boosted round. It is common in larger railguns to use a charge to start the round between the rails to avoid the round or armature from welding to the rails. The rapid fire guns are more likely coilguns as a railguns can't fire more than one round through its barrel at a time or it would reduce damage because each additional round would be making a parallel circuit. With fluorine it all depends on how fast the coils can plus the size of their fields. With the ability to shape magnetic fields (evident with use of plasma weapons) this is further altered making for even more rounds possible in the barrel at once. So high power single shot = railgun, faster fire lower individual damage = coilgun. Other issues... railgun exposed rails can't be used underwater. An EMP is more likely to damage a coilgun than a railgun.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by eliakon »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Axelmania wrote:This is a false dichotomy. Numbers alone or words alone are useless. One doesn't hold authority over the other. All are canon and all are authority. All that matters is context. Like direct statements vs "optional" designated things, or differentiating between perceptions of NPCs vs perceptions of the author.

Well NPCs have no perception other than the author... unless your talking your NPCs... they don't count toward Canon

NPCs have the limit of being in universe and thus their perceptions are bounded rather rigidly.
That means that their perceptions are confined to what they know as opposed to the author who is omniscient.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


I think you mean single sabot round. Flechette is French for dart, sabot is French for shoe. In this case the BG launches a shoe filled with 200 darts... But the drawing make them either rods or blades since we don't get a 3d of the "flechette" so they'd more accurately be barre or lame in french as they are not a slug as a slug is most likely derived from the word meaning a lead bit, less likely the animal as the slug left its shell. The "flechette" are neither bits of lead or rounds having left their shell if anything objects coming from a sabot, if they were to derive it in the same manner as the shelless snail, should be a pied as that is what comes out of a sabot

No, I said exactly what I meant. I used flechette because RUE uses flechette.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by eliakon »

Mack wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


I think you mean single sabot round. Flechette is French for dart, sabot is French for shoe. In this case the BG launches a shoe filled with 200 darts... But the drawing make them either rods or blades since we don't get a 3d of the "flechette" so they'd more accurately be barre or lame in french as they are not a slug as a slug is most likely derived from the word meaning a lead bit, less likely the animal as the slug left its shell. The "flechette" are neither bits of lead or rounds having left their shell if anything objects coming from a sabot, if they were to derive it in the same manner as the shelless snail, should be a pied as that is what comes out of a sabot

No, I said exactly what I meant. I used flechette because RUE uses flechette.

AHAH!
Zer0 Kay solved it!
The Boom Gun fires dart filled shoes.
And shoes come in pairs of course.
So it really fires two shoes.
Which firing two of something that is one item (two shoes that is a pair) is a burst AND a single shot at the same time.
There we have it folks. How it can single shot fire bursts
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


Any source supporting the idea that the round is intact when it exits the barrel? I'm aware that IRL some flechette rounds have timed fuses which cause a delay before it explodes after firing, but unless the Boom Gun actually specifies something like that, the easiest explanation is the traveling down the barrel is what begins to separate the round into flechettes, probably quartering it and launching out a batch of 50 at a time. Otherwise why have them in rows?

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Axelmania wrote:This is a false dichotomy. Numbers alone or words alone are useless. One doesn't hold authority over the other. All are canon and all are authority. All that matters is context. Like direct statements vs "optional" designated things, or differentiating between perceptions of NPCs vs perceptions of the author.

Well NPCs have no perception other than the author... unless your talking your NPCs... they don't count toward Canon


I'm not clear on what you are trying to say.

An author can write an NPC believing something about the world which is not what the author believes about the world. The author who creates the world has the most accurate viewpoint of it, but they can give characters inaccurate viewpoints about that world.

guardiandashi wrote:if you notice the artwork, ALL the flechettes are in 1 "fall away carrier" commonly called a sabot but I consider the boomgun to be a rail boosted round (most likely a coilgun but shrug) because the length of the round doesn't addup, if you look at the image the flechettes are 1 inch long, which means the "round" ie the portion that goes down the barrel and hits targets is ~4 inches long. IMO most of the other 3 inches of the shells is some form of gunpowder that is detonated when the round is fired.

I'm aware of the artwork. The 'round' is the entire thing, including the casing and any propellant. What hits the enemy is the bursted quartet of 50-slug circles.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Either a railguns or coilgun must fire individual rounds unless the rounds are carried in a sabot. In the case of a coil/gauss gun if all of the rounds don't pass exactly through the center of the coil they will be attracted to the side of the barrel quickly damaging the barrel. In the case of a railguns if two rounds are pushed between the rails there may be welding turning them into one round or more likely each round acts as a separate conductor with neither receiving the oppositional Lorenz finishing with the rails being welded to the rounds which weld to each other.

21st century science can't necessarily explain possible variations in 24th century weapons.

eliakon wrote:How it can single shot fire bursts

Where does a book refer to a boom gun making a 'single shot'? I thought it was a 'booming blast'.

Don't things like fragmentation missiles also make a 'blast' composed of many projectiles?
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


Any source supporting the idea that the round is intact when it exits the barrel? I'm aware that IRL some flechette rounds have timed fuses which cause a delay before it explodes after firing, but unless the Boom Gun actually specifies something like that, the easiest explanation is the traveling down the barrel is what begins to separate the round into flechettes, probably quartering it and launching out a batch of 50 at a time. Otherwise why have them in rows?

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Axelmania wrote:This is a false dichotomy. Numbers alone or words alone are useless. One doesn't hold authority over the other. All are canon and all are authority. All that matters is context. Like direct statements vs "optional" designated things, or differentiating between perceptions of NPCs vs perceptions of the author.

Well NPCs have no perception other than the author... unless your talking your NPCs... they don't count toward Canon


I'm not clear on what you are trying to say.

An author can write an NPC believing something about the world which is not what the author believes about the world. The author who creates the world has the most accurate viewpoint of it, but they can give characters inaccurate viewpoints about that world.

guardiandashi wrote:if you notice the artwork, ALL the flechettes are in 1 "fall away carrier" commonly called a sabot but I consider the boomgun to be a rail boosted round (most likely a coilgun but shrug) because the length of the round doesn't addup, if you look at the image the flechettes are 1 inch long, which means the "round" ie the portion that goes down the barrel and hits targets is ~4 inches long. IMO most of the other 3 inches of the shells is some form of gunpowder that is detonated when the round is fired.

I'm aware of the artwork. The 'round' is the entire thing, including the casing and any propellant. What hits the enemy is the bursted quartet of 50-slug circles.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Either a railguns or coilgun must fire individual rounds unless the rounds are carried in a sabot. In the case of a coil/gauss gun if all of the rounds don't pass exactly through the center of the coil they will be attracted to the side of the barrel quickly damaging the barrel. In the case of a railguns if two rounds are pushed between the rails there may be welding turning them into one round or more likely each round acts as a separate conductor with neither receiving the oppositional Lorenz finishing with the rails being welded to the rounds which weld to each other.

21st century science can't necessarily explain possible variations in 24th century weapons.

eliakon wrote:How it can single shot fire bursts

Where does a book refer to a boom gun making a 'single shot'? I thought it was a 'booming blast'.

Don't things like fragmentation missiles also make a 'blast' composed of many projectiles?

its in the Flipping RMB/RUE where it says
RMB
Rate of Fire: Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks of
the pilot and his power armor (usually 4-6, see Power Armor Training).
Bursts and sprays are not possible!

RUE
"Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as one melee attack/action.
Bursts and sprays are not possible!"
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Eagle »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Where exactly does it say these other railguns fire bullets 1 at a time? I recall many later railguns not even bothering to list individual bullet damage. It could conceivably be 2 or 4 at a time exiting the barrel in some cases, for all we know.

The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


Either a railguns or coilgun must fire individual rounds unless the rounds are carried in a sabot. In the case of a coil/gauss gun if all of the rounds don't pass exactly through the center of the coil they will be attracted to the side of the barrel quickly damaging the barrel. In the case of a railguns if two rounds are pushed between the rails there may be welding turning them into one round or more likely each round acts as a separate conductor with neither receiving the oppositional Lorenz finishing with the rails being welded to the rounds which weld to each other.


I'm sorry, this is Rifts. Please take your Real Science and throw it in the trash. It has no place here. :)
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


Any source supporting the idea that the round is intact when it exits the barrel? I'm aware that IRL some flechette rounds have timed fuses which cause a delay before it explodes after firing, but unless the Boom Gun actually specifies something like that, the easiest explanation is the traveling down the barrel is what begins to separate the round into flechettes, probably quartering it and launching out a batch of 50 at a time. Otherwise why have them in rows?
[/quote][/quote]

Um having them in rows of 50 is so that you can fit all 200 slugs down the barrel of the gun at one time without making the bore any larger. Nothing in the texts suggests that all 200 slugs are not launched at the same time.
Likewise the 'timed fuses' for flechette rounds was for artillery shells, which I gather you don't thing is the case for the Boom gun round either. But the do sound like they were nasty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_anti-personnel_round

Now the fact that the round is 7 inches long and only 4 inches is needed for all the slugs if they were simply packed in between indicates that there is probably some kind of spacer in between each set (probably to prevent them from interfering with the flight path of the rounds in front of them, and perhaps some kind of conductive material at the rear of the round to allow for the acceleration. My guess is that the slugs, needing to be super strong and light weight, are probably a non ferrous material (otherwise the weight of the loaded GB would be much higher). So the shell, rather than the slugs in my theory has to have a magnetic component in order accelerate them, and likely falls away along with any spacers once everything leave the barrel.


Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:How it can single shot fire bursts

Where does a book refer to a boom gun making a 'single shot'? I thought it was a 'booming blast'.

Don't things like fragmentation missiles also make a 'blast' composed of many projectiles?
[/quote]

Yes but fragmentation missiles blast is not directed in a single direction like a boomgun but in a radius around the munition depending on it's design.
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part13.htm
Also the method of delivery is different, a warhead with a explosive charge wrapped in metal designed to fragment in to many pieces to cover a designated area around the detonating missile with shrapnel vs what is essentially a hyper-sonic shot gun that shoots in 1 direction and maintains a narrow spread of destruction. TLDR: my opinion is that "blast" is too generic a term, and ill defined in Rifts as a game mechanic.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


Any source supporting the idea that the round is intact when it exits the barrel? I'm aware that IRL some flechette rounds have timed fuses which cause a delay before it explodes after firing, but unless the Boom Gun actually specifies something like that, the easiest explanation is the traveling down the barrel is what begins to separate the round into flechettes, probably quartering it and launching out a batch of 50 at a time. Otherwise why have them in rows?

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Axelmania wrote:This is a false dichotomy. Numbers alone or words alone are useless. One doesn't hold authority over the other. All are canon and all are authority. All that matters is context. Like direct statements vs "optional" designated things, or differentiating between perceptions of NPCs vs perceptions of the author.

Well NPCs have no perception other than the author... unless your talking your NPCs... they don't count toward Canon


I'm not clear on what you are trying to say.

An author can write an NPC believing something about the world which is not what the author believes about the world. The author who creates the world has the most accurate viewpoint of it, but they can give characters inaccurate viewpoints about that world.

guardiandashi wrote:if you notice the artwork, ALL the flechettes are in 1 "fall away carrier" commonly called a sabot but I consider the boomgun to be a rail boosted round (most likely a coilgun but shrug) because the length of the round doesn't addup, if you look at the image the flechettes are 1 inch long, which means the "round" ie the portion that goes down the barrel and hits targets is ~4 inches long. IMO most of the other 3 inches of the shells is some form of gunpowder that is detonated when the round is fired.

I'm aware of the artwork. The 'round' is the entire thing, including the casing and any propellant. What hits the enemy is the bursted quartet of 50-slug circles.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Either a railguns or coilgun must fire individual rounds unless the rounds are carried in a sabot. In the case of a coil/gauss gun if all of the rounds don't pass exactly through the center of the coil they will be attracted to the side of the barrel quickly damaging the barrel. In the case of a railguns if two rounds are pushed between the rails there may be welding turning them into one round or more likely each round acts as a separate conductor with neither receiving the oppositional Lorenz finishing with the rails being welded to the rounds which weld to each other.

21st century science can't necessarily explain possible variations in 24th century weapons.

eliakon wrote:How it can single shot fire bursts

Where does a book refer to a boom gun making a 'single shot'? I thought it was a 'booming blast'.

Don't things like fragmentation missiles also make a 'blast' composed of many projectiles?


Well if 21st century science can't explain 24th century weapons that do less damage than their 21st century counterparts and are fired at a lower speeds... then your 21st century logic can't be used to explain that all the "slugs" go down the parcel at the same time.

Which they do. Because they are in a sabot they are accelerated at the same TIME so they go down the barrel at the same TIME. No one said they are in the same place or occupy the same space. As the front group is accelerated the rear group is accelerated there is no time lag it is a single shot not a burst. A single reaction not 200. Plus the Lorentz force is applied to the sabot not the slugs.
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