exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


Any source supporting the idea that the round is intact when it exits the barrel? I'm aware that IRL some flechette rounds have timed fuses which cause a delay before it explodes after firing, but unless the Boom Gun actually specifies something like that, the easiest explanation is the traveling down the barrel is what begins to separate the round into flechettes, probably quartering it and launching out a batch of 50 at a time. Otherwise why have them in rows?


Let's go to the book, and ensure we use consistent terms. (Underlining added.)

RUE p72: ..."unique rail gun that can accelerate its flechette style rounds to a speed of Mach 5 and actually creates a sonic boom when fired."
Also RUE p72: "One Boom Gun flechette round holds 200 slugs that inflict a massive 3D6x10 M.D. to the target."

The round DOES NOT separate into flechettes. Do not confuse the flechette with the slugs.

The flechette round has a speed of Mach 5.
The flechette holds 200 slugs.

The easiest explanation is that it does exactly what the book says it does. The flechette flies at Mach 5 carrying 200 slugs to the target.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/flechette
1. Military. a small, dartlike metal projectile used as shrapnel in antipersonnel bombs and shells.
2. a bullet with a thin, hard metal spine, designed to tumble on impact and thus cause an incapacitating wound.


It's a singular term, referring to a dartlike projectile.
The doesn't describe a cluster of 200 dartlike projectiles.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Killer Cyborg wrote:http://www.dictionary.com/browse/flechette
1. Military. a small, dartlike metal projectile used as shrapnel in antipersonnel bombs and shells.
2. a bullet with a thin, hard metal spine, designed to tumble on impact and thus cause an incapacitating wound.


It's a singular term, referring to a dartlike projectile.
The doesn't describe a cluster of 200 dartlike projectiles.

Technically you are both correct a flechette style "round" is referring to a round that contains flechette. The author was incorrect when he claimed the flechette style round contains 200 slugs , it would be more accurate to say, the flechette style round contains 200 submunitions rather than slugs.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Despite whatever terminology the non-technically inclined author used, its a sabot that contains flechettes. There are/were shotgun shells that were flechette carrying sabots....

they were outlawed by the Geneva Convention because they were simply too lethal.

That is essentially what the Boom Gun is firing - a sabot containing 200 flechettes. Just like a traditional flechette gun, the sabot falls away and the flechettes slam into the target, turning it into a grisly mess.

Ironically, it would actually make it LESS successful against armor, which is why i subscribe to the theory that if it were a "real" weapon (or in a revised Rifts game) there would be two different (selectable) rounds for the Boom Gun - Flechette for anti-infantry, and an APSD solid round (Sabot with a giant armor piercing dart in it) for anti-armor strikes.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Mack wrote:RUE p72: ..."unique rail gun that can accelerate its flechette style rounds to a speed of Mach 5 and actually creates a sonic boom when fired."
Also RUE p72: "One Boom Gun flechette round holds 200 slugs that inflict a massive 3D6x10 M.D. to the target."

The round DOES NOT separate into flechettes. Do not confuse the flechette with the slugs.

Yes, the rounds are accelerated to Mach 5.. in the barrel. The gun can't continue to accelerate them once they exit the barrel.

The round separates as it exits the barrel, into the slugs, because it is the slugs which do the damage.

If the round hit the target intact it would be "round .. that inflicts" but instead it is read "slugs that inflict". The lack of an S for inflict shows that the inflicting subject is plural not singular, so it is the slugs, not the round.

Mack wrote:The flechette round has a speed of Mach 5.
The flechette holds 200 slugs.

The easiest explanation is that it does exactly what the book says it does. The flechette flies at Mach 5 carrying 200 slugs to the target.

The flying to Mach 5 is within the barrel. This is why the penalties people take from deafness are from a radius centered around the glitter boy.

If it was penalties centered around the round itself, then the penalties would apply along the entire path from Boomgun to target.

The reason it doesn't is simple: the Mach 5 is just for the path within the barrel. Once the round separates and begins bursting the slugs out the end of the barrel, the velocity begins to depreciate as no longer benefits from electromagnetic acceleration, and the 4 sets of 50 slugs spread out and encounters more air resistance.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Ironically, it would actually make it LESS successful against armor, which is why i subscribe to the theory that if it were a "real" weapon (or in a revised Rifts game) there would be two different (selectable) rounds for the Boom Gun - Flechette for anti-infantry, and an APSD solid round (Sabot with a giant armor piercing dart in it) for anti-armor strikes.

I can't recall seeing penalties vs armor so much as certain attacks (like armor-piercing mini-missiles) which have narrow fields of attack but better chances for criticals.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Axelmania wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Ironically, it would actually make it LESS successful against armor, which is why i subscribe to the theory that if it were a "real" weapon (or in a revised Rifts game) there would be two different (selectable) rounds for the Boom Gun - Flechette for anti-infantry, and an APSD solid round (Sabot with a giant armor piercing dart in it) for anti-armor strikes.

I can't recall seeing penalties vs armor so much as certain attacks (like armor-piercing mini-missiles) which have narrow fields of attack but better chances for criticals.


We're just talking reality here, which Rifts is not, i grant you. In the case that the Boom Gun were real (we actually have rail guns now that are far more powerful than the Boom Gun), the Flechette round would be amazing against infantry and lightly armored targets (an APC without hardened armor would be a death-box as 200 flechettes hit it, penetrated, and turned everything inside into burger meat) particularly if the sabot fell away about 2/3-3/4 of the way to the target, allowing them to spread into a pretty lethal cone. However...

Little flechette slugs that weigh a few ounces each dont have the mass to penetrate hardened armor as well as an armor-piercing dart from an APSD round would. An APSD round would have the mass to kinetically shatter heavy armor and spall the inside of the crew compartment, potentially killing everyone inside (less likely in Rifts where the crew is likely buttoned up in MDC armor) or at least shredding control surfaces and causing internal damage.

Also, there's nothing that says that the sabot lets go as soon as the round exits the barrel. IIRC, the only mention is "before it hits the target". It could be range-fused or have a sensor in the sabot. We simply don't know.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Range-fused would mean it would have to somehow interact with the power armor so it tells when to open. Sensor-system would require sensors.

These all assume things not specified in any way in illustrations we have been shown of the round, which simply show a casing/slugs.

The best explanation is these are simple cheap things and that all the fancy casing-stripping is done by the gun itself.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:RUE p72: ..."unique rail gun that can accelerate its flechette style rounds to a speed of Mach 5 and actually creates a sonic boom when fired."
Also RUE p72: "One Boom Gun flechette round holds 200 slugs that inflict a massive 3D6x10 M.D. to the target."

The round DOES NOT separate into flechettes. Do not confuse the flechette with the slugs.

Yes, the rounds are accelerated to Mach 5.. in the barrel. The gun can't continue to accelerate them once they exit the barrel.

No one said they did.

Axelmania wrote:The round separates as it exits the barrel, into the slugs, because it is the slugs which do the damage.

If the round hit the target intact it would be "round .. that inflicts" but instead it is read "slugs that inflict". The lack of an S for inflict shows that the inflicting subject is plural not singular, so it is the slugs, not the round.

Yes, the slugs inflict damage. I didn't say otherwise.

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:The flechette round has a speed of Mach 5.
The flechette holds 200 slugs.

The easiest explanation is that it does exactly what the book says it does. The flechette flies at Mach 5 carrying 200 slugs to the target.

The flying to Mach 5 is within the barrel. This is why the penalties people take from deafness are from a radius centered around the glitter boy.

If it was penalties centered around the round itself, then the penalties would apply along the entire path from Boomgun to target.

The reason it doesn't is simple: the Mach 5 is just for the path within the barrel. Once the round separates and begins bursting the slugs out the end of the barrel, the velocity begins to depreciate as no longer benefits from electromagnetic acceleration, and the 4 sets of 50 slugs spread out and encounters more air resistance.

Irrelevant. Yes, the Boom Gun creates the deafening noise; no one claimed otherwise.

Let's go back to the facts:
-- The flechette round has a speed of Mach 5.
-- The flechette holds 200 slugs.

At some undefined point, after accelerating to Mach 5 the flechette releases the 200 slugs. Now think about this for a second without using any mental gymnastics, why is the overall round a flechette? For aerodynamics while in flight.

That's why the GB pilot can fire a single shot (which can be aimed, called, etc.) because it is a single flechette round when it leaves the barrel. (Which was the original point of this discussion. It's not a burst, but a single shot from the GB pilot's perspective.)
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

If you check the illustration, the suit has a casing ejector port, which shows that the casing for the slugs is stripped during the firing process. It's the 4 rows of 50 slugs which exit the gun, not a single shot. A single round is loaded, but during firing the casing is stripped and the slugs split.

I can't recall it being referred to as a single shot, but I do recall seeing it referred to as an aimed burst. Just can't apply burst multipliers to something already a burst, it's a remnant.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:If you check the illustration, the suit has a casing ejector port, which shows that the casing for the slugs is stripped during the firing process. It's the 4 rows of 50 slugs which exit the gun, not a single shot. A single round is loaded, but during firing the casing is stripped and the slugs split.

Check the illustration again. It shows a casing, not the flechette. That casing is above and beyond what we're discussing. And if you look closely, you'll see that the casing is 7" long, while the slugs are only 1" long. That leaves a lot of space for something else, doesn't it? Like a flechette.

To keeps our terms consistent:
-- There's a casing.
-- Then there's a flechette round.
-- Then there's 200 slugs.

Axelmania wrote:I can't recall it being referred to as a single shot, but I do recall seeing it referred to as an aimed burst. Just can't apply burst multipliers to something already a burst, it's a remnant.

Please cite any passage that calls it a burst.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Despite whatever terminology the non-technically inclined author used, its a sabot that contains flechettes. There are/were shotgun shells that were flechette carrying sabots....

they were outlawed by the Geneva Convention because they were simply too lethal.

That is essentially what the Boom Gun is firing - a sabot containing 200 flechettes. Just like a traditional flechette gun, the sabot falls away and the flechettes slam into the target, turning it into a grisly mess.

Ironically, it would actually make it LESS successful against armor, which is why i subscribe to the theory that if it were a "real" weapon (or in a revised Rifts game) there would be two different (selectable) rounds for the Boom Gun - Flechette for anti-infantry, and an APSD solid round (Sabot with a giant armor piercing dart in it) for anti-armor strikes.


Actually the Geneva Convention doesn't ban them because they are too lethal, and completely a misstatement of the law of war. What you are thinking of is the Geneva Protocol to the Hague Conventions, which updated the convention and what kinds of weapons can be restricted. The Geneva Convention has to do with how countries treat sick, wounded and POWs. It's why normally you can't target churches, mosques and hospitals, torture captured troops, and what you have to provide those POWs during ongoing conflicts. But that's me being really technical and lawyerly. There is also the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons which banned certain weapons in the 80's.

What the law of armed conflict all together does ban is the employment of arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering (such as chemical and biological weapons, or weapons designed only to maim and not kill). If a weapon is lethal it is good to go against enemy forces, but if it is designed to only cause injury or a long slow death (chemical, biological weapons and nerve agents) then they are bad bad bad.

Here is a good list of banned weapons, flechettes are not on that list: http://www.ranker.com/list/banned-weapons/richard-rowe
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Axelmania wrote:Range-fused would mean it would have to somehow interact with the power armor so it tells when to open. Sensor-system would require sensors.

You mean like the laser rangefinder directly above the barrel?
Would work just like the XM25. Point at enemy, laser automatically reads range and programs timing, so all you really have to do is pull the trigger.

The XM25 has the option to incrementally increase or decrease the timing, but that is because it uses a variety of munition types, which have different needs and uses.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Here's my take on the terms used in the book, which may or may not have been well researched and understood by the author at the time.
1) Flechette round: Means the entire round with the 200 slug submunitions. If flechettes are dart like projectiles why oh why is this called a single flechette round? Because it is a single munition (a round) that contains the submunitions, the 200 inch long slugs, which are effectively flechettes. Take it to mean that rather than meaning the round is a single flechette, it is called a flechette round for simple ease of reference within the game. I.E. it is a round that contains 200 flechettes, a flechette round.

2) 200 slugs: those are your actual flechettes contained inside the "Flechette Round" of the boomgun. They may or may not be contained inside a sabot when they are fired, they may or may not have spacers in between them. They may or may not act as a single hyper-sonic kinetic projectile or like a hyper-sonic shotgun, or some combination of both. Simple fact is, in the game, they're hella lethal.

Casing. The Flechette round has a casing. As Axel pointed out the casing is ejected from the boom gun in the original illustrations, much like a giant 7 inch shotgun shell. This means whatever is contained inside the casing is accelerated by the EM forces of the boomgun, and may potentially contain some kind of programmable fallway sabot around the flechettes, spacers between each group of 50 slugs or any number of things packaged around it. There's 3 extra inches beyond the 4 inches of slugs in the round that may allow for these sorts of things. It's not in the material, so we don't know. It would make sense that given the boomguns range finder and target identification capabilities that it could program information to the round that is transmitted to some kind of sabot that would time its release of the slugs to maximize damage depending on the target i.e. if soft bodies release all the slugs before impact, but if armored keep the sabot together in order to provide maximum kinetic impact on the hard target. Is that cannon, nope, but it's a possibility. The U.S. Army has the XM-25 programmable 25mm grenade launcher that basically does the same thing, i.e. can detonate at a specific range rather just on impact, and in fact be shot through soft walls or windows or detonate just beyond a wall to inflict maximum damage.

4) Blast: does not = burst. A blast, is simply a descriptive adjective without a specific game mechanic attached to it.
Examples: Taking a shotgun blast to the face? one shot. Blasting your enemy with a plasma rifle? One shot. Mini missile detonates with blast to that skelebot over there, one shot. My NG 101 rail gun blasts a hail of 40 rounds at the xit warrior, that's a burst. I blast that thieving city rat with a 3 round burst from my handy M-16, totally a burst. My GB fires a booming blast at a UAR-1 from its boomgun, not a burst.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:If you check the illustration, the suit has a casing ejector port, which shows that the casing for the slugs is stripped during the firing process. It's the 4 rows of 50 slugs which exit the gun, not a single shot. A single round is loaded, but during firing the casing is stripped and the slugs split.

Check the illustration again. It shows a casing, not the flechette. That casing is above and beyond what we're discussing. And if you look closely, you'll see that the casing is 7" long, while the slugs are only 1" long. That leaves a lot of space for something else, doesn't it? Like a flechette.

To keeps our terms consistent:
-- There's a casing.
-- Then there's a flechette round.
-- Then there's 200 slugs.

I can't recall it being referred to as a single shot, but I do recall seeing it referred to as an aimed burst. Just can't apply burst multipliers to something already a burst, it's a remnant.

Please cite any passage that calls it a burst.[/quote]

to clarify:
the overall length of the cartridge that is loaded into the gun is 7inches.
after the gun is fired, ~4 inches of "round" goes down the barrel accelerating to mach 5 (or higher) while whatever is left of the "cartridge" is ejected.
if it works like any other SABOT round, (real ones) at some point AFTER it leaves the end of the barrel, air friction causes the SABOT the "shoe" portion of the shell to fall away from the submunition(s)

there is no "stripping" of the round by the gun, it happens naturally by air friction.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

J_cobbers wrote:4) Blast: does not = burst. A blast, is simply a descriptive adjective without a specific game mechanic attached to it.
Examples: Taking a shotgun blast to the face? one shot. Blasting your enemy with a plasma rifle? One shot. Mini missile detonates with blast to that skelebot over there, one shot. My NG 101 rail gun blasts a hail of 40 rounds at the xit warrior, that's a burst. I blast that thieving city rat with a 3 round burst from my handy M-16, totally a burst. My GB fires a booming blast at a UAR-1 from its boomgun, not a burst.

He fires both. Siembieda examined in his essay "Disadvantages Playing The Glitter Boy" (CB15) that
    The boom gun is so powerful that after the first blast
    (unless the recoil suppression system has been engaged)
    any subsequent boom gun blasts
    are considered wild shooting, with a low rate of accuracy.
    However, if the Glitter Boy has activated the recoil suppression system,
    which engages in an instant,
    and is thus properly secured,
    he can fire one recasting burst
    after another
    (+1 to strike for an aimed burst
    and an additional +2 boom gun bonus)

Kevin has never disavowed this since the Conversion Book. People engage in imaginative speculation over the reorganization of the revised edition as if prioritizing new content is the same as disavowing the essay. It isn't.

A melee round may be a single thing but it contains 15 seconds.
A round may be a single tu Gbit it contains 4 rows.
A row may be a single thing but it contains 50 slugs.

This is a plural attack and pylons change the boom gun from -6 to strike to +1 to strike.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Axelmania wrote:
J_cobbers wrote:4) Blast: does not = burst. A blast, is simply a descriptive adjective without a specific game mechanic attached to it.
Examples: Taking a shotgun blast to the face? one shot. Blasting your enemy with a plasma rifle? One shot. Mini missile detonates with blast to that skelebot over there, one shot. My NG 101 rail gun blasts a hail of 40 rounds at the xit warrior, that's a burst. I blast that thieving city rat with a 3 round burst from my handy M-16, totally a burst. My GB fires a booming blast at a UAR-1 from its boomgun, not a burst.

He fires both. Siembieda examined in his essay "Disadvantages Playing The Glitter Boy" (CB15) that
    The boom gun is so powerful that after the first blast
    (unless the recoil suppression system has been engaged)
    any subsequent boom gun blasts
    are considered wild shooting, with a low rate of accuracy.
    However, if the Glitter Boy has activated the recoil suppression system,
    which engages in an instant,
    and is thus properly secured,
    he can fire one recasting burst
    after another
    (+1 to strike for an aimed burst
    and an additional +2 boom gun bonus)

Kevin has never disavowed this since the Conversion Book. People engage in imaginative speculation over the reorganization of the revised edition as if prioritizing new content is the same as disavowing the essay. It isn't.

A melee round may be a single thing but it contains 15 seconds.
A round may be a single tu Gbit it contains 4 rows.
A row may be a single thing but it contains 50 slugs.

This is a plural attack and pylons change the boom gun from -6 to strike to +1 to strike.

you know what you are wrong but its not worth it,

the glitterboy boomgun fires single rounds exactly like a shotgun. boom, boom, boom 1 shot with each pull of the trigger (semi auto) however each "round" is a rail boosted flechette style round, that happens to contain 200 submunitions stacked in 4 groupings of 50 all contained in a sabot casing.

go read up on these REAL rounds then come back and realize that ~20 years ago when rifts first came out the descriptions were bad because information on how this stuff ACTUALLY WORKS was hard to find unless you either did a lot of research, or happened to have access to it because of interest, or work. I am sure if it was being written (new) today, the descriptions would be phrased differently due to ready access to the information.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

IRL gun physics don't dictate how futuristic weapons work in Rifts.

http://i52.tinypic.com/wkha87.jpg

Looking at the illustration the front of the round looks speckled as if the front row of 50 are half exposed.

The round is not sharp like a flechette. It is not as aerodynamic or sharp as the slugs. It is the slugs which function as flechettes, not the round.

The rear of the round is the wider casing which is expelled via the rear chute.

Then there is a fall-away sheath.

Since the front row is exposed and has nothing resisting it, it launches first. That row kicks.

The next three rows can then move up and launch themselves as the sheath falls away as everything exits the barrel.

The electromagnetism of the barrel is probably the only thing holding the sheath on once the gun removes the casing.

As the round exits and separates front-to-back, the inner flechette slugs are able to repel each other and push the sheath away.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:IRL gun physics don't dictate how futuristic weapons work in Rifts.

http://i52.tinypic.com/wkha87.jpg

Looking at the illustration the front of the round looks speckled as if the front row of 50 are half exposed.

The round is not sharp like a flechette. It is not as aerodynamic or sharp as the slugs. It is the slugs which function as flechettes, not the round.

The rear of the round is the wider casing which is expelled via the rear chute.

Then there is a fall-away sheath.

Since the front row is exposed and has nothing resisting it, it launches first. That row kicks.

The next three rows can then move up and launch themselves as the sheath falls away as everything exits the barrel.

The electromagnetism of the barrel is probably the only thing holding the sheath on once the gun removes the casing.

As the round exits and separates front-to-back, the inner flechette slugs are able to repel each other and push the sheath away.

All of which is rampant and unsupported speculation.

Book facts:
-- There's a casing.
-- There's a flechette.
-- The flechette holds 200 slugs.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Rule: Called Shots cannot be bursts.

Rule: Boom Guns can make called shots. (Triax 2, pg 119; when noting the limitations of the AI firing (the AI cannot make called shots), it notes that the pilot CAN).

Ergo, Boom Guns do not fire Bursts.

And we're done here.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

The essay is about the basic RG-14 wielded by the USA-G10, not the Dual Coaxial wielded by the Fat Boy. That is a modified gun and doesn't specify it fires flechettes of 200 slugs like the Hell Angel on 122, which doesn't say the pilot can do Called Shots. This is the T-550 from WB5p46.

Called shots also can be bursts.

I realize you are reading this:
    Note: A "Called Shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot, not a burst

But look at what immediately follows it:

    Bursts and Rapid-Fire Pulse
    ..
    bursts or pulses at the same target
    ..
    no penalty to strike except on an Aimed or Called Shot, in which case any strike bonus is reduced
    ..
Last edited by Axelmania on Sat May 27, 2017 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by eliakon »

A Boom-Gun is a Boom-Gun.
Unless they are explicitly defined as not being the same weapon, then yes, they are. Even if they are on different models.
Just like we do not assume that every different model of power armor, robot, and vehicle has a unique and different weapon when it says "medium missile"
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

Medium missile is the same model.

Different models are already explicitly different weapons.

The classic boom gun explicitly fires a flechette round of 200 slugs. The Fat Boy does not.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

eliakon wrote:A Boom-Gun is a Boom-Gun.
Unless they are explicitly defined as not being the same weapon, then yes, they are. Even if they are on different models.
Just like we do not assume that every different model of power armor, robot, and vehicle has a unique and different weapon when it says "medium missile"


I see Axel's Mental Gymnasium is open for business.

I wonder if i said the sky is blue he'd say the sky is green?

Anyway, to elaborate on what Eli is saying here...

Not only are they the same round, Axel even had to ignore the fact that it says the system is identical to the T-550 like two sentences prior, or that it clearly says the Dual Boom Gun is exactly that - two Boom Guns in one housing.

It's a single shot, son. No amount of word-twisting or mental gymnastic will change the fact that you're wrong.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

It is never called identical, please reread and comprehend better to avoid altering the meaning when you paraphrase in the future.

It says: Like the T-550 Glitter Boy, the Boom Gun of the X-700 can fire independent of the pilot.

It is pointing out one similarity between the guns, not calling them the same or saying they use the same ammunition.

I also just proved that some rapid bursts and pulses can function like single shots except for half bonuses when doing Aimed or Called shots.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Rule: Called Shots cannot be bursts.

Rule: Boom Guns can make called shots. (Triax 2, pg 119; when noting the limitations of the AI firing (the AI cannot make called shots), it notes that the pilot CAN).

Ergo, Boom Guns do not fire Bursts.

And we're done here.


a boomgun as described by the books is effectively the same as a shotgun. this is actually pointed out in some of the descriptions.

you can make called shots with shotguns. so you can make called shots with a boomgun.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

eliakon wrote:
Mack wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


I think you mean single sabot round. Flechette is French for dart, sabot is French for shoe. In this case the BG launches a shoe filled with 200 darts... But the drawing make them either rods or blades since we don't get a 3d of the "flechette" so they'd more accurately be barre or lame in french as they are not a slug as a slug is most likely derived from the word meaning a lead bit, less likely the animal as the slug left its shell. The "flechette" are neither bits of lead or rounds having left their shell if anything objects coming from a sabot, if they were to derive it in the same manner as the shelless snail, should be a pied as that is what comes out of a sabot

No, I said exactly what I meant. I used flechette because RUE uses flechette.

AHAH!
Zer0 Kay solved it!
The Boom Gun fires dart filled shoes.
And shoes come in pairs of course.
So it really fires two shoes.
Which firing two of something that is one item (two shoes that is a pair) is a burst AND a single shot at the same time.
There we have it folks. How it can single shot fire bursts
:lol: :bandit: :lol:


Lol. Now... are they flats, stilettos, clogs?
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The 200 slugs do NOT go down the barrel at the same time. They are arranged in 4 rows of 50, so A is ahead of B is ahead of C is ahead of D.


You've got the wrong framework in mind.

The 200 slugs are inside a single flechette round. The flechette round, as a whole, is launched from the Boom Gun.


Any source supporting the idea that the round is intact when it exits the barrel? I'm aware that IRL some flechette rounds have timed fuses which cause a delay before it explodes after firing, but unless the Boom Gun actually specifies something like that, the easiest explanation is the traveling down the barrel is what begins to separate the round into flechettes, probably quartering it and launching out a batch of 50 at a time. Otherwise why have them in rows?


Let's go to the book, and ensure we use consistent terms. (Underlining added.)

RUE p72: ..."unique rail gun that can accelerate its flechette style rounds to a speed of Mach 5 and actually creates a sonic boom when fired."
Also RUE p72: "One Boom Gun flechette round holds 200 slugs that inflict a massive 3D6x10 M.D. to the target."

The round DOES NOT separate into flechettes. Do not confuse the flechette with the slugs.

The flechette round has a speed of Mach 5.
The flechette holds 200 slugs.

The easiest explanation is that it does exactly what the book says it does. The flechette flies at Mach 5 carrying 200 slugs to the target.

The flechette are the slugs if they are launched in a separating shell and not mystically held together by some other means or fired shotgun style the shell would be a sabot. The reference to the round being flechette style is either an error, which should have been sabot style, or like saying an M1 fires a kinetic penitrator rather than an APFSDS round. Both are true even though the tank is propelling the APFSDS it is at the same time accelerating the kinetic penitrator as one is part of the other until it leaves the barrel.

That being said I think it is an error as it doesn't seem the author is military or weapon saavy. Not knowing the differences between a rail or coil gun and apparently a flechette and sabot. Or for what it matters a plasma and napalm. Back in the images alone they have a passive thermal sight labeled as (infra-red) and though TI is IR TO alters the received IR image into a narrow thermal band with highly contrasting color gradations while an IR scope has a wider band but seemingly less gradations.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

A flechette is a metal dart fired from a gun.
A large round of 200 darts is not "a flechette," just as a grenade is not "a shrapnel."
A large round of 200 darts is "a flechette round," just as a 12-gauge shotgun shell with flechettes is also "a flechette round."
Just like a 12-gauge shell that fires a bolo is "a bolo round," not "a bolo."

The 200 "slugs" are flechettes.
The round that contains them is "a flechette round."

If you look at the picture on RMB 221, you'll notice that the ammunition is depicted as having a shell casing, and a "fall-away sheath holding 200 slugs."
The fall-away sheath falls away, sabot-style, when the weapon is fired.

In this video, you can watch how a flechette round works with a shotgun.
Notice the fall-away sheath hitting the ballistic gel first, before the flechettes strike.
(This demonstration was fired close up. My understanding is that the stabilizing fins kick in at longer ranges.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtraM8IMvKw
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Killer Cyborg wrote:In this video, you can watch how a flechette round works with a shotgun.
Notice the fall-away sheath hitting the ballistic gel first, before the flechettes strike.
(This demonstration was fired close up. My understanding is that the stabilizing fins kick in at longer ranges.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtraM8IMvKw


Yep.

There's a good segment on Flechettes in this FBI video at around 15 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5RZTBhK4c

Edited later:

What i find odd about the flechetttes shown on Youtube is their size and how they are being packed (they seem to be all be hand-packed, which is super dangerous).

The ones in WW1 were quite a bit larger (roughly the length of the shotgun shell) and there were only about six-eight in one shell, and that was a 10-gauge trench gun. They were WAY more aerodynamic than the ones in the videos im seeing.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:It is never called identical, please reread and comprehend better to avoid altering the meaning when you paraphrase in the future.

It says: Like the T-550 Glitter Boy, the Boom Gun of the X-700 can fire independent of the pilot.

It is pointing out one similarity between the guns, not calling them the same or saying they use the same ammunition.


If it wasn't a Boom Gun, then it wouldn't be called a Boom Gun.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:I realize you are reading this:
    Note: A "Called Shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot, not a burst

But look at what immediately follows it:

    Bursts and Rapid-Fire Pulse
    ..
    bursts or pulses at the same target
    ..
    no penalty to strike except on an Aimed or Called Shot, in which case any strike bonus is reduced
    ..


I sincerely hope you have made a simple mistake here, or that your copy of RUE is different from mine.

P361 of RUE does NOT say what you just claimed. I would encourage you to list the printing date of your RUE, and quote the relevant paragraph in full in the hope that someone can confirm your claim.

Mine is the first printing, Aug 2005. And neither does the published errata support your claim.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually it goes on to say in the next paragraph after the called shots section that energy weapons with Pulse/burst can do called shots using Pulse fire, but at half bonuses. this is presented as an exception to the normal "single shots only" rule, due to how an energy weapon pulse/burst occurs so fast that they are effectively equivalent to single shots. (this is also why energy weapon pulse/bursts do full damage for all the shots in the pulse/burst instead of only around 60% of them as with non-energy weapons.

a railgun is not an energy weapon.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote: Siembieda examined in his essay "Disadvantages Playing The Glitter Boy" (CB15) that
    The boom gun is so powerful that after the first blast
    (unless the recoil suppression system has been engaged)
    any subsequent boom gun blasts
    are considered wild shooting, with a low rate of accuracy.
    However, if the Glitter Boy has activated the recoil suppression system,
    which engages in an instant,
    and is thus properly secured,
    he can fire one recasting burst
    after another
    (+1 to strike for an aimed burst
    and an additional +2 boom gun bonus)

Kevin has never disavowed this since the Conversion Book.


I guess that depends on what you mean by "disavowed."
RUE 72
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible.

RMB 223
Rate of Fire: Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks of the pilot and his power armor... [u]Bursts and sprays are not possible![u]

Before CB1, it's pretty clear that the Boom Gun can't fire bursts.
After CB1, it's pretty clear that the Boom Gun can't fire burst.
Logically, the CB1 usage of "burst" twice instead of "blast" is a typo, but even if it represented a rule-change from the RMB, that rule-change ended with RUE (if not before).
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually it goes on to say in the next paragraph after the called shots section that energy weapons with Pulse/burst can do called shots using Pulse fire, but at half bonuses.

Mine says just Pulse. Not Pulse/Burst.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Mack wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:actually it goes on to say in the next paragraph after the called shots section that energy weapons with Pulse/burst can do called shots using Pulse fire, but at half bonuses.

Mine says just Pulse. Not Pulse/Burst.


Maybe they changed it later, but my copy of RUE (Gold Edition) 361 states:
This happens so fast it is not even considered to be a burst, but a single, heavy blast. It counts as one melee attack and suffers no penalties to strike except on an Aimed or Called Shot, in which case any strike bonus is reduced by half (round down).

I'm not seeing anything about "pulse/burst" either.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Axelmania wrote: Siembieda examined in his essay "Disadvantages Playing The Glitter Boy" (CB15) that
    The boom gun is so powerful that after the first blast
    (unless the recoil suppression system has been engaged)
    any subsequent boom gun blasts
    are considered wild shooting, with a low rate of accuracy.
    However, if the Glitter Boy has activated the recoil suppression system,
    which engages in an instant,
    and is thus properly secured,
    he can fire one recasting burst
    after another
    (+1 to strike for an aimed burst
    and an additional +2 boom gun bonus)

Kevin has never disavowed this since the Conversion Book.



The entire book has been "disavowed". It's been removed and replaced with an updated book that does not contain the passage you're talking about. That's what Revised editions of books do - supplant and replace the old one. You cant claim that stuff in the "non-revised" edition is still canon - it doesn't work that way.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "disavowed."
RUE 72
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible.

RMB 223
Rate of Fire: Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks of the pilot and his power armor... Bursts and sprays are not possible![u]

Before CB1, it's pretty clear that the Boom Gun can't fire bursts.
After CB1, it's pretty clear that the Boom Gun can't fire burst.
Logically, the CB1 usage of "burst" twice instead of "blast" is a typo, but even if it represented a rule-change from the RMB, that rule-change ended with RUE (if not before).


Well before. CB1 was released in Nov 1991.

Im fairly certain Mutants in Orbit has GB stats reprinted, but i cant locate my copy. It's probably still in a box. Ill look later.

WB5 has the stats for the Triax T-550 GB. Same text as the regular GB, other than the mention at the begining that it fires at a slightly slower speed; mentions it is a reproduction and successful copy, though. No mention of Aimed Bursts or any such nonsense. Released a couple of years after CB1 (1995 if im not mistaken). Plenty of time for updated text.

WB8 has the stats for the Glitter Boy and Boom Gun. No mention of any special "aimed burst rules". Came out several years after CB1, plenty of time for updated text. (1996?)

WB9 does not have the stats for the GB reprinted, but does have the stats for the Boom Gun itself printed in the Mastadon entry. No mention of aimed bursts. And since this text ISNT just a copy-pasta of previous iterations, it would have been trivial to add it. (late '96 or early 97, IIRC).

WB22 (Free Quebec) reprints and updates the GB entry. No mention of any aimed-burst anything. (April 2000)

CB1r came out in 2002, completely invalidating CB1 and replacing it.

Oh, and the GMG, whenever that came out, though, with abbreviated stats... meh.

RUE came out in 2005.

I submit to you that if Kevin wanted to include this rule, he's had 26 years and 7 (8 if you include Triax 2) books that have had the stats for the thing in them to do so. He hasn't done so, so i think the evidence is pretty clear that the "rule" (or ruling, as it were) is long gone. Particularly since the entire modern combat system has received a (less workable, IMO) overhaul in the interim - twice. Once in the GMG and once in RUE.
----

So, i'm going to, once again, try to explain, for Axel, why new editions of books invalidate old ones.

Well start with the "new player" reason, and then progress to the more in-depth ones.

Let's say im a new player. My friends introduce to Rifts. I buy Ultimate Edition, try it out, and love it (..... god knows why, but hey, sake of argument).
I then head over to Palladiumbooks.com and buy every single book i can under the Rifts heading.

Want to guess what i can't buy (and, really, other than the implication from the title "revised", have no way of even knowing there ever was)?

Yeah, Conversion Book One non-revised. Can't get SB1 non-revised, either, or Vampire Kingdoms.

All the books and rules i can lay my hands on and that are currently supported by the company are there, and the old, out of print, non-revised editions are not among them.

The canon of rules is what is available and supported by the company. That simple.

Now, a LOT of more modern companies (Paizo, WotC, AEG, others) deal with this by having all the core rules in an SRD. (System Referrence Document) - usually online, and often in Wiki format so it is easy to search and link through.

Palladium doesn't do this - largely i'd say because they missed the boat due to Kev's (past?) technophobia when they had the resources and now because they simply dont have the resources (and lets face it, the core system doesn't even work as presented and would need to be updated and rewritten to be playable first) to do it at this late date.

With an SRD available, i can ALWAYS know what the current rule/ruling on a rule is. Without one, it's the printed canon of books that are available from and supported by the company.

Now we'll get into the "new editions of the rules replace and supplant old ones" talk. We'll even use one of Palladium's own game lines to do so - Heroes Unlimited!

According the Axel's theory that new versions dont invalidate old ones if they dont explicitly over-write and change old rules, you should be able to use the Heroes Unlimited 1st Ed/Revised Magic Hero instead of the one Presented in 2nd Edition. After all, it's exactly like his claim that the (old) version of Headhunter from RMB still exists even though RUE replaced it with a much updated version! The old one should still exist!

.... except it doesn't. None of the books published after 2nd Edition was released would work with it. The new one uses the now universal PPE system and the old one uses Spell Slots per day.

New editions (ESPECIALLY of the core rules) [/b][u]outright replace[/b] the old ones. If there is something that was left out in the transition - thats intentional. (It's not a bug, its a FEATURE). Same with revised books. When stuff is removed, it is removed on purpose. It's gone. Removed from canon.

Thats how editions and revisions work.

Until and unless there is a canon rule or statement, in print, from Kevin (or he cares to weigh in, either in person or through one of the mods posting on his behalf) that post-dates the removal of the of the text with the removal of non-revised CB1 (and the overruling of what CB1 would have said, anyway, with RUE superceding it as the Core Rulebook in 2005; not to mention all of the other post CB1 printings of books with the stats where they ignore/over-rule the CB1 text).... nadda.

Boom guns dont fire bursts.

Last time im going to bother going over that. Really, last time im going to bother responding to Axel at all. I already had him on ignore, but was responding because i could still see his posts when he was quoted by others. Im just going to stop bothering, at this point. With a tiny amount of snark: he can have his gold medal in Olympic Mental Gymnastics. He's earned it.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

glitterboy2098 wrote:a boomgun as described by the books is effectively the same as a shotgun. this is actually pointed out in some of the descriptions.

you can make called shots with shotguns. so you can make called shots with a boomgun.

Which book/page and quote, regarding this "effectively the same" statement? I would like to examine the context.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The flechette are the slugs if they are launched in a separating shell and not mystically held together by some other means or fired shotgun style the shell would be a sabot. The reference to the round being flechette style is either an error, which should have been sabot style, or like saying an M1 fires a kinetic penitrator rather than an APFSDS round. Both are true even though the tank is propelling the APFSDS it is at the same time accelerating the kinetic penitrator as one is part of the other until it leaves the barrel.

Do flechette and slug have to be mutually exclusive? When I look at https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... hettes.jpg the lowercost doesn't seem incredibly pointy, close the smooth-looking end of the slugs we see projecting out the end of the round in the illustration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug_(projectile) appears to just require it be made of 1 piece, you can make a flechette out of one piece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette seems to just require it is pointed and has a tail. Even some shotgun slugs look pointed to me, and the 200 slugs may indeed have tails we can't see due to the casing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Notice the fall-away sheath hitting the ballistic gel first, before the flechettes strike.

Which doesn't necessarily mean the fall-away sheath of a Boom Gun round operates this way, it could fall away while exiting the barrel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-pi ... ot_discard is a step towards this theme:
"the setback forces shear the forward petals, partly unlocking the sub-projectile from the sabot"
"pressure is used to delay the unlocking of the pins holding the rear part of the sub-projectile "
"forward petals are released or discarded by projectile spin, the aerodynamic drag removes the pot/base unit"

You could just set this up so it happens row-by-row as the round exits 1/4 1/2 3/4

If you look at the "CASING-EJECTOR" illustration above the "AMMUNITION" illustration it supports this interpretation. I understand the assumption that the 2 labels "shell casing" pointing to the left and "fall away sheath" pointing to the right lead some to think these are 2 discrete things, but I think the sheath is actually a sub-group of the casing.

The left part looks square-like when viewed from the side, the length is equal or less than the diameter of the round.

Looking at the ejector illustration, it is clearly a rectangular exit-port, and the casing (complete with movement lines) coming out of it clearly has a greater length than diameter.

Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:It is never called identical, please reread and comprehend better to avoid altering the meaning when you paraphrase in the future.

It says: Like the T-550 Glitter Boy, the Boom Gun of the X-700 can fire independent of the pilot.

It is pointing out one similarity between the guns, not calling them the same or saying they use the same ammunition.


If it wasn't a Boom Gun, then it wouldn't be called a Boom Gun.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are different kinds of Boom Gun. The clear unifying concept of them is they make a boom when you shoot them. Statements made specifically about a new variant of boom gun do not apply to other boom guns. Just like there are different kinds of missiles or different kinds of railguns.

Mack wrote:I sincerely hope you have made a simple mistake here, or that your copy of RUE is different from mine.

P361 of RUE does NOT say what you just claimed. I would encourage you to list the printing date of your RUE, and quote the relevant paragraph in full in the hope that someone can confirm your claim.

Mine is the first printing, Aug 2005. And neither does the published errata support your claim.

I actually had Robotech: Shadow Chronicles (which I had thought word-for-word reprinted RUE in most cases for the combat rules) and was reading from that, it was closer-on-hand at the time I replied. I can see that RUE is slightly different though, now that you've pointed it out.

You can see on page 5 of RSC there is a "Bursts & Rapid-Fire Pulse" mentioned in the table of contents, and my quote is from the upper-left of page 240.

Given that Shadow Chronicles was published after RUE, I would view the "Bursts and" addition out front as being the most current Megaversal rules set on the issue.

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually it goes on to say in the next paragraph after the called shots section that energy weapons with Pulse/burst can do called shots using Pulse fire, but at half bonuses. this is presented as an exception to the normal "single shots only" rule, due to how an energy weapon pulse/burst occurs so fast that they are effectively equivalent to single shots. (this is also why energy weapon pulse/bursts do full damage for all the shots in the pulse/burst instead of only around 60% of them as with non-energy weapons.

a railgun is not an energy weapon.

RUE p 70 gives pilots the Glitter Boy Pilot OCC the "W.P. Heavy Energy Weapons" skill. RUE p 73 also mentions under Hand to Hand Combat Elite: Glitter Boy "in addition to any W.P. Heavy Energy Weapons skill bonuses"

Energy weapon need not necessarily mean weapons which expel energy, it could also mean weapons which use non-explosive energy to expel their rounds, such as electromagnetic weapons.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I guess that depends on what you mean by "disavowed."
RUE 72
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible.

RMB 223
Rate of Fire: Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks of the pilot and his power armor... [u]Bursts and sprays are not possible![u]

Which proves my point: the BASANP disclaimer was present in both versions, so any clarifying statements made about it apply equally to the reprint.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Logically, the CB1 usage of "burst" twice instead of "blast" is a typo, but even if it represented a rule-change from the RMB, that rule-change ended with RUE (if not before).

There is no reasonable way that is a typo, especially since KS writes +1 for bursts instead of +3
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Notice the fall-away sheath hitting the ballistic gel first, before the flechettes strike.

Which doesn't necessarily mean the fall-away sheath of a Boom Gun round operates this way, it could fall away while exiting the barrel.


It's how flechette rounds operate as a rule.
That doesn't mean that a Boom Gun flechette round isn't an exception to the rule, but there's no reason to assume that it IS an exception unless that is stated somewhere.
And AFAIK, it isn't stated anywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-piercing_discarding_sabot#Sabot_discard is a step towards this theme:
"the setback forces shear the forward petals, partly unlocking the sub-projectile from the sabot"
"pressure is used to delay the unlocking of the pins holding the rear part of the sub-projectile "
"forward petals are released or discarded by projectile spin, the aerodynamic drag removes the pot/base unit"

You could just set this up so it happens row-by-row as the round exits 1/4 1/2 3/4


You could do a lot of things, but there is no indication that the GB round is anything other than a standard flechette round.
If it was a sabot round, then I expect that would have been mentioned at some point.
It isn't.

If you look at the "CASING-EJECTOR" illustration above the "AMMUNITION" illustration it supports this interpretation. I understand the assumption that the 2 labels "shell casing" pointing to the left and "fall away sheath" pointing to the right lead some to think these are 2 discrete things, but I think the sheath is actually a sub-group of the casing.


Unless the books state otherwise, then I would assume that the "shell casing" is a shell casing, and that the "fall away sheath" is a fall away sheath.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I guess that depends on what you mean by "disavowed."
RUE 72
Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as one melee attack/action. Bursts and sprays are not possible.

RMB 223
Rate of Fire: Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks of the pilot and his power armor... [u]Bursts and sprays are not possible![u]

Which proves my point: the BASANP disclaimer was present in both versions, so any clarifying statements made about it apply equally to the reprint.


If your point is that bursts and sprays are not possible with the Boom Gun, then I and the official books agree with you.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Logically, the CB1 usage of "burst" twice instead of "blast" is a typo, but even if it represented a rule-change from the RMB, that rule-change ended with RUE (if not before).

There is no reasonable way that is a typo, especially since KS writes +1 for bursts instead of +3


What's the full quote there?
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:
Axelmania wrote:It is never called identical, please reread and comprehend better to avoid altering the meaning when you paraphrase in the future.

It says: Like the T-550 Glitter Boy, the Boom Gun of the X-700 can fire independent of the pilot.

It is pointing out one similarity between the guns, not calling them the same or saying they use the same ammunition.


If it wasn't a Boom Gun, then it wouldn't be called a Boom Gun.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are different kinds of Boom Gun. The clear unifying concept of them is they make a boom when you shoot them. Statements made specifically about a new variant of boom gun do not apply to other boom guns. Just like there are different kinds of missiles or different kinds of railguns.


Wrong. Just plain wrong.

If it was different than every other Boom Gun published in the last thirty years, don't you thing the authors might have made a comment?

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:I sincerely hope you have made a simple mistake here, or that your copy of RUE is different from mine.

P361 of RUE does NOT say what you just claimed. I would encourage you to list the printing date of your RUE, and quote the relevant paragraph in full in the hope that someone can confirm your claim.

Mine is the first printing, Aug 2005. And neither does the published errata support your claim.

I actually had Robotech: Shadow Chronicles (which I had thought word-for-word reprinted RUE in most cases for the combat rules) and was reading from that, it was closer-on-hand at the time I replied. I can see that RUE is slightly different though, now that you've pointed it out.

Irrelevant. Not RUE.

Let's stick with the rules for this game. For that matter, if you can't be bothered to use the rules for this game, then there's not much to discuss.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

KC the full quote is at viewtopic.php?p=2964043#p2964043

There is no palladium rule on how flechettes operate, nor one in real life as to what needs to trigger the spread or when it happens or the degree of spread.

Being able to do a fixed singular kind of burst does not invalidate a bursts/sprays plural ban. It clarifies there is no control or deviation from the amount fired and it happens too quickly to spray it and there are no multipliers to deal with.

Kevin's original essay and also the GMG ten years later (p42 second-last bullet under shooting wild) are consistent about that.

Mack when triax 2 came out there was already no consistent boomgun. The basic triax model already deviates from the original.

The author did note a change by removing mention of 200 flechettes.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:KC the full quote is at http://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/vi ... 3#p2964043


Palladium's typos are different than most publishers. ;)

I agree that in that passage, it looks like the writer is actually calling the Boom Gun blast a burst.
But looks can be deceiving, and that's the only passage in any of the books that seems to describe it that way.
Other books make it clear that bursts are not possible with a Boom Gun.
"One of these things is not like the others; one of these things just doesn't belong."

There is no palladium rule on how flechettes operate, nor one in real life as to what needs to trigger the spread or when it happens or the degree of spread.


But there is a way that flechette rounds work in the real world--there is a norm.
And so any departure from the norm would need to be noted.

For example, one could design a car with square wheels... but that's not the norm.
Any car in Palladium that doesn't specify that the wheels are round might actually have square wheels!
BUT it's pretty safe to assume that they don't, because such an abnormality is not noted, and square wheels are not the real-world norm.

Being able to do a fixed singular kind of burst does not invalidate a bursts/sprays plural ban.


Yeah, it does.
A gun cannot both fire a burst and NOT fire a burst every time the trigger is pulled.

Kevin's original essay and also the GMG ten years later (p42 second-last bullet under shooting wild) are consistent about that.


Feel free to provide direct quotes if you want my view on them.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

But you can fire a burst and not fire bursts.

Flechettes are more comes than wheels and I already provided some quotes pertaining to sabots which strip pre target via the firing process.

Not the only passage, will also show you the GMG42
• The subsequent blasts after the first burst from a Glitter Boy's boom gun if the Glitter Boy is NOT secured to the ground (the recoil suppression systems must be engaged; thrusters and pylons). If the Glitter Boy is secured by a properly engaged recoil suppression system, the boom gun fires like a normal burst weapon.

Calling that a typo is comedy.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:But you can fire a burst and not fire bursts.

Flechettes are more comes than wheels and I already provided some quotes pertaining to sabots which strip pre target via the firing process.

Not the only passage, will also show you the GMG42
• The subsequent blasts after the first burst from a Glitter Boy's boom gun if the Glitter Boy is NOT secured to the ground (the recoil suppression systems must be engaged; thrusters and pylons). If the Glitter Boy is secured by a properly engaged recoil suppression system, the boom gun fires like a normal burst weapon.

Calling that a typo is comedy.

That's typical of KS's imprecise writing style, as has been pointed out numerous times. Understanding context is an important skill in following his writing.

Until you come to terms with his inconsistent style, you'll continue to be frustrated.

(Seriously, look at the history of the C-12 rifle.)
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:Mack when triax 2 came out there was already no consistent boomgun. The basic triax model already deviates from the original.

Right... damage/range/payload are all completely different.

Oh, wait.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Axel
While the GMG quote may have put the boomgun into a "burst" status at it's publication, if we assume the text on pg 42 is correct, and not a editing typo, the RUE comes along and gives us the bursts and sprays not being possible in the text of the GB armor, which, as long as we follow the most recent published book is controlling rule, means that it is a blast and not a burst and follows single shot rules not burst rules. Is there a more current book than the RUE that recons it to be a burst? If not, then follow single shot rules.

Also flechette style round is the description in the text of the boomgun, see my post above. Like wise the ejection of the casing does not negate the possibility that there is an internal sabot holding the flechettes inside the casing, much like many custom shot gun rounds have their shells and inside are a plastic wadding or sabot which is fired with the projectiles, while the larger hollow shell is ejected when the shotgun is cycled. I imagine the boomgun could operate much the same way, the Larger boomgun flechette style rounds consists of a shell casing that then contains any wadding or sabot around the 200 slugs (the actual flechettes in the flechette style round) which may fall away after the gun is fired, leaving the empy shell of the flechette style round to be ejected as depicted in the original art. That solves all speculations and possible ideas about what the round may be.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:But you can fire a burst and not fire bursts.


Only once.

Flechettes are more comes than wheels and I already provided some quotes pertaining to sabots which strip pre target via the firing process.


That's not unusual for sabots.
Not sure where you're going with it.

Not the only passage, will also show you the GMG42
• The subsequent blasts after the first burst from a Glitter Boy's boom gun if the Glitter Boy is NOT secured to the ground (the recoil suppression systems must be engaged; thrusters and pylons). If the Glitter Boy is secured by a properly engaged recoil suppression system, the boom gun fires like a normal burst weapon.

Calling that a typo is comedy.


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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Not to mention... it's still 100% overridden by RUE anyway.

Unless of course Axel's going to try to claim that any weapon that says "Standard" under ROF can still fire 2-shot pulse-bursts (a term used nowhere else except GMG by Kevin), and all that other nonsense that is in the GMG Ranged Combat section still applies.

You know, because RUE doesn't explicitly say to ignore all that, and all.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Axelmania »

J_cobbers wrote:Axel
While the GMG quote may have put the boomgun into a "burst" status at it's publication, if we assume the text on pg 42 is correct, and not a editing typo, the RUE comes along and gives us the bursts and sprays not being possible in the text of the GB armor, which, as long as we follow the most recent published book is controlling rule

RUE did not "give" anything. It has the same text as RMB which was already clarified in CB/GMG as being a burst.

People are so quick to insist that Kev writing "burst" four times and assigning +1 to strike is a mistake.

How about this alternate possibility: "burst and sprays are not possible" could be what was intended. A simple letter S.

Then suddenly it makes sense: the boomgun bursts too rapidly to do a spraying burst (burst-and-spray)
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by Greepnak »

This is an interesting thread from a technical point of view, but getting too lost in the details is not a healthy approach to anything. It's better to listen to the spirit of the written word than the actual word itself, just as in law.

I personally see the BG as a cartridge-ejecting megashotgun of scaryness that is very cool and visual/visceral, making it compete favorably for a sci-fi "iconic power image" with the fantasy knight and his 2 handed sword. More than that is just phlebotanum really. Consistency is important, but most things are explained away by uneven tech/manufacturing capacities, MDC materials being strikingly lightweight making low-recoil weapons much more intuitively practical, and ultimately just 30 years of books with few revisions with no real "grammar guide" to keep terminology consistent.
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Re: exploiting the Glitter Boy's unique inability to parry

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Axelmania wrote:
J_cobbers wrote:Axel
While the GMG quote may have put the boomgun into a "burst" status at it's publication, if we assume the text on pg 42 is correct, and not a editing typo, the RUE comes along and gives us the bursts and sprays not being possible in the text of the GB armor, which, as long as we follow the most recent published book is controlling rule

RUE did not "give" anything. It has the same text as RMB which was already clarified in CB/GMG as being a burst.

People are so quick to insist that Kev writing "burst" four times and assigning +1 to strike is a mistake.

How about this alternate possibility: "burst and sprays are not possible" could be what was intended. A simple letter S.

Then suddenly it makes sense: the boomgun bursts too rapidly to do a spraying burst (burst-and-spray)


Ok RUE didn't 'give' us a new rule but reiterated the original from RMB (copy and paste). But a burst is a different, though related, game mechanic than spray.
Here's my walk through what that logically means to me if you must insist that the boomgun is a burst weapon and not a single shot weapon.
A spray is a subcategory of burst found in the original RMB, meant to hit multiple targets and is defined on pg 34 as:
Shooting a burst at several targets at once is possible, but the same as shooting wild. You must fire a long burst or an entire magazine in order to spray.

Since sprays and long bursts (as a percentage of the magazine of an automatic weapon) as outlined in RMB have been removed from RUE, there are no rules supporting that mechanic in the current edition, so of course sprays are not possible with the Boomgun even without the text. Since sprays are no longer part of the rules, your argument no longer makes sense, because it leaves only that bursts are not possible. If you are defining the single shot (aka blast) of the boomgun flechette round as a burst, the text describing the very modes of attack possible by the weapon system state that bursts are not possible. Sticking to the idea of a simple letter "S" now that means your saying it's a burst weapon that can't fire a burst. or if you want to keep the S and say bursts are not possible, that means you'd have to say it can fire once (a burst as you want to define it), but not more than that since bursts (more than one burst) are not possible. The boomgun text support it as a single shot weapon. There is not any text that describe it specifically as firing each group of 50 separately in a burst, only that the round contains 4 sets of 50 slugs, and that it fires them in a "booming blast." I get that KS put some material out there that says burst way back in CB1, and heck yes it is in the GMG, but the actual description of the weapon provides otherwise in the most recent published rules.

Maybe it will show up in a future book and that'll be the new rule, but it is counter intuitive, requires a lot of "buts" and "maybes" and violates the KISS principle to try and logic things your way rather than taking the plane meaning of the rules as presented in the RUE.
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