Create Force Field duration in Rifts?

[Axelmania]

The power of MDC gives CFF a lot more applications in Rifts that would not normally be sensible in HU. Like for example, massive use of 1-point DC fields to capture or protect a large amount of people. 1 SDC fields don't do much and can be easily taken down, but 1 MDC fields could be incredibly useful in impeding those who can't do MD attacks.

Given that even the below-average PE 9 example can make 900 such fields, the main limiter to how many you can make is probably how long they stick around for.

Page 47 of the Rifts Conversion Book never listed a duration so I thought at the time you could keep them around forever.

Page 148 of Dimension Book 4: Skraypers ended up giving it a 10 minutes + 2 per level like in page 271 of HU2.

Does that take precidence as the most current version? Page 30 of Conversion Book revised says "All other aspects of the power remain unchanged" after noting SDC > MDC so I figure that supports the Skraypers interpretation...

But revised page 48 lists no duration, and notably, it has force bolts which do MD, even though page 30 said that damage inflicted by the force field remains SDC.

So it seems like there exist 2 kinds of Create Force Field in Rifts. The kind which evolved in HU which remains SDC when they travel to Rifts, and the kind which evolves in Rifts and can inflict MD. The latter kind seems to lack any kind of duration.

If it did have a duration, I would think it would be based on HU revised, since HU2 wasn't out at the time. Page 181 it had a duration of 1 hour, which is a lot more useful in terms of being able to protect people with less maintenance having to keep coming back and putting up a new field.

Will we ever get notes for Powers Unlimited 1/3 new stuff in Rifts? The closest I can think of are the general guidelines on page 136 of Skraypers which said in ALL cases damage changes to MD (later noting 'usually' and 'unless stated otherwise') although that doesn't help much with CFF since we're told otherwise but then told it's MD...

It also says to combine HP+SDC to make MDC for certain chars. This didn't help with some protective abilities though (CFF required the special note to change SDC to MDC for example, since a force field is not a character) and I was left in the dark for what happened to Control Elemental Force : Earth's walls.

It never said they became MDC but I figured since they could make MDC earth shackles twice as strong as ice it would make sense, otherwise I'd just keep making shackles and stack them up to make a wall...

Eventually CBrevised did resolve that by saying the MDC is 1/4 the SDC, which works well enough.

[Glistam]

Use the Heroes Unlimited Second Edition text for the power and only supercede/change What the Conversion Book 1 Revised text calls out. That is the most current conversion of the Create Force Field power into Rifts.

[ShadowLogan]

You could use DB4 as a Rifts precedent for version, if it doesn't require HU (sorry I don't have the book) that CB1r (pg43) requires, which means that for CB1r purposes the main HU book details over ride CB1r unless CB1r specifically addresses an issue for conversion. CB1r seems to work with any version of HU, so which version of HU limited is up to you (if you don't have the most recent version, it doesn't matter)

[Axelmania]

Glistam the issue is that CFF is treated different on pages 30 and 48 of Conversion Book Revised, since 30 says it does SDC damage and 48 says it does MD. This sets a precedent for 2 different versions of the power co-existing.

I'd say 48 was converting the HUR version which had a 1 hour duration, which fits with it being more powerful and letting the bolts do MD.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Use the RCB1r conversion for the Rifts setting and the Scrapers one for the scrapers setting.

If you have murged the scrapers setting and the 3G settings for your game, then use the scrapers version for the 3G setting.

The RCB1/RCB1r list what changes were made to the super powers for the rifts setting so if there is no duration listed, then the duration was not changed.

*puts on the Muchkin hat*
WOOOO HOOOO No Duration That mean it lasts forever. Yes!

*takes off the munchkin hat and throws it in the fire pit and lights it up*

[Glistam]

Glistam the issue is that CFF is treated different on pages 30 and 48 of Conversion Book Revised, since 30 says it does SDC damage and 48 says it does MD. This sets a precedent for 2 different versions of the power co-existing.

I'd say 48 was converting the HUR version which had a 1 hour duration, which fits with it being more powerful and letting the bolts do MD.

I reject both your premise and your conclusion.

See the section on Super Abilities for a more in-depth description of super abilities, but here are some notable Mega-Damage Capacity (M.D.C.) instilling powers.

On Rifts Earth, the S.D.C. of the force field is converted, point for point, to M.D.C., including the body force field. All other aspects of the power remain unchanged, so damage inflicted by the force field remains S.D.C.

This indicates several things:

1. What's written on pages 29 through 30 is mainly concerned with discussing the M.D.C. protection provided, or not provided, by select "notable" powers. It does not attempt nor purport to be a proper conversion of the powers.
2. This section notes that "damage inflicted by the force field remains S.D.C.". It does not indicate that the Bolts of Force inflict S.D.C., only that the damage which the force field inflicts continues to be S.D.C.. This is nonsense since the force fields are never noted as being capable of doing damage, S.D.C. or otherwise, in Heroes Unlimited or in the proper conversion later, but it literally never conflicts with any of the other two write-ups since it is never addressed in either of them.
3. What's written on page 48 will supersede what's written on page 30, making these notes practically worthless and a waste of pages. This section is not the conversion section, it is just a list of powers the author felt were notable.

Now to the section for that actually specifically addresses "Heroes Unlimited™ Conversions," which begins on page 43. You'll note that the first part of this section, which addresses Rifts® Superhumans, references page 226 for the Random Super Ability Selection Tables. Page 226 of Heroes Unlimited Revised is the section on Helicopters, while for Heroes Unlimited Second Edition this is the correct page for selecting super abilities. Furthermore, once the conversions start it is clear that the power write-ups are referencing the Heroes Unlimited Second Edition versions of the powers and not the Heroes Unlimited Revised versions. Bend Light, for example, includes the Blank Spot ability which was introduced in the Second Edition. Additionally, powers which did not exist in the Revised edition are also listed.

Going to page 48 shows exactly what you indicated - that no duration is noted. But the real answer to this issue is actually provided earlier on pages 43 and 44:

A copy of Heroes Unlimited is needed for super abilities listed here...

These conversion descriptions are often abridged...

So the correct answer, when converting super powers from Heroes Unlimited by using the Revised Rifts Conversion Book 1, is to reference the power(s) in the Heroes Unlimited Second Edition book but adjust them according to the Conversion Notes listed on pages 44 through 51. Anything not changed by the conversion notes defaults to the Heroes Unlimited Second Edition information. In the case of the Create Force Field major power, that would mean the following aspects of the power remain unchanged by the conversion to the M.D.C. environment of Rifts Earth:

• The range out to which a force field can be created.
• The number of melee attacks required to create a force field.
• The duration of the force field.
• The bonus provided to create a force field as a shield or wall in order to block or parry an attack.
• The number of melee actions required to create and fire Bolts of Force.
• The bonuses to strike with Bolts of Force and the penalties opponents receive to parry and dodge them.

[Axelmania]

Force Bolts are an aspect of "create force field", they are generated by channeling MDC from a force field, so I believe that's what is being expressed by damage done by the force field.

The other only possible meaning I could figure would be damage done from crashing into a force field put into your path.

As for the list of unchanged things because they were not listed, the strange thing is that CBR lists this thing which wasn't changed in respect to HU2 too:
*40 + 10/level square foot area

It could be that since it bothers to reprint unchanged things, that the omission of something means it no longer applies. So instead of 40 feet per level, this may mean that range is now touch. Instead of 10+2/level minutes, it may now mean that CFF has unlimited time.

The most glaring problem is that page 30 says "all other aspects of the power remain unchanged" after mentioning the SDC>MDC for the fields/armor.

Page 48 contradicts this because it improves the damage AND range of force bolts. These are definitely "other aspects". 2D6 SDC @ 40(+10/level) feet > 1D4 MD @ 100 feet is a change of aspects. I guess it's a range nerf for heroes 7th level and above though.

This must mean that 30 and 48 are different incarnations of CFF, so anything stated on 30 about unchanged aspects obviously doesn't apply to 48.

[Glistam]

Force Bolts are an aspect of "create force field", they are generated by channeling MDC from a force field, so I believe that's what is being expressed by damage done by the force field.

The other only possible meaning I could figure would be damage done from crashing into a force field put into your path.

I could think of other meanings, but that last part makes sense to me. I don't see the problem.

As for the list of unchanged things because they were not listed, the strange thing is that CBR lists this thing which wasn't changed in respect to HU2 too:
*40 + 10/level square foot area

Read it again. HU2 clearly lists the area as "40 square feet + 10 feet per level" while CB1R lists the area as "40 feet + 10 feet per level."

It could be that since it bothers to reprint unchanged things, that the omission of something means it no longer applies. So instead of 40 feet per level, this may mean that range is now touch. Instead of 10+2/level minutes, it may now mean that CFF has unlimited time.

Yet that is not what it means, as was already discussed.

The most glaring problem is that page 30 says "all other aspects of the power remain unchanged" after mentioning the SDC>MDC for the fields/armor.

Page 30 is not the conversion of the power. Page 48 is.

Page 48 contradicts this because it improves the damage AND range of force bolts. These are definitely "other aspects". 2D6 SDC @ 40(+10/level) feet > 1D4 MD @ 100 feet is a change of aspects. I guess it's a range nerf for heroes 7th level and above though.

There is nothing to contradict - page 30 is not the conversion of the power.

This must mean that 30 and 48 are different incarnations of CFF, so anything stated on 30 about unchanged aspects obviously doesn't apply to 48.

Only the second part of that sentence is true.

[Axelmania]

Read it again. HU2 clearly lists the area as "40 square feet + 10 feet per level" while CB1R lists the area as "40 feet + 10 feet per level."

Squared is implied, you can't measure area with simply feet, that would only be length. Palladium's done this in a lot of places, they will imply square when describing area while not always saying squared.

Page 30 is not the conversion of the power. Page 48 is.

There is nothing to contradict - page 30 is not the conversion of the power.

Both are conversions of the power.

29: "See the section on Super Abilities for a more in-depth description of super abilities, but here are some notable Mega-Damage Capacity (M.D.C.) instilling powers."

30: "All other aspects of the power remain unchanged, so damage inflicted by the force field remains S.D.C."

43: "Conversion Notes for Select Super-Powers: The following information pertains only to the super abilities which are transformed or modified by the Rifts environment."

48: "Bolts of Force inflict only 1D4 M.D. and use up five M.D.C. of force. Increase range to 100 feet"

The distinction here is that 29/30 describe what happens to super powers in MDC settings while 43/48 describe what happens to super powers in RIFTS.

So basically, TK Force Bolts do SDC and have durations in Robotech, but do MD and have no durations in Rifts.

[Glistam]

That's an interesting house rule. I hope it serves your games well.

[Axelmania]

Not a house rule, it's plain to see that 29 is "here are some powers" and tells 30 us the only thing changed about CFF in MDC environments is MDC protection.

Then 43 talks about changes in Rifts environment and on 48 adds to the MDC protection the MD infliction and enhanced range for the force bolts.

This means it is stronger in Rifts than in other MDC settings.

[eliakon]

Not a house rule, it's plain to see that 29 is "here are some powers" and tells 30 us the only thing changed about CFF in MDC environments is MDC protection.

Then 43 talks about changes in Rifts environment and on 48 adds to the MDC protection the MD infliction and enhanced range for the force bolts.

This means it is stronger in Rifts than in other MDC settings.

That is your interpretation and what you plan to do at your table sure....
As Glistam points out there is a VERY strong case to make that 43 is the only conversion and that the 29 section is basically a "Quick rules of thumb that are soooo short term they get retconned in the same book in only 9 pages when the actual formal rules come out"
(basically they are only in effect in a game until you turn to page 48. Then they are superseded by the full rules... which is the norm for every other case of 'quickie rule of thumb vs. full rules')

[Axelmania]

I don't see how you can make a case that 29 isn't a conversion, it clearly is, and distinctly says not to improve the damage to MD. This is different than omitting full conversion notes, it's directly contradicting the later entry.

It's basically summarizing powers which give MDC protection while the later section summarizes a wider degree of powers.

[Glistam]

Read it again. HU2 clearly lists the area as "40 square feet + 10 feet per level" while CB1R lists the area as "40 feet + 10 feet per level."

Squared is implied, you can't measure area with simply feet, that would only be length. Palladium's done this in a lot of places, they will imply square when describing area while not always saying squared.

Both values are nonsense as written when applied in context and require interpretation. I merely rebut your claim that the duration was reprinted and unchanged because, clearly, it wasn't unchanged.

[Axelmania]

Interestingly I just compared CFF in the original Conversion Book page 47 "a 40 square foot area" which also appears on Skraypers 148, so it seems like they just took out 'square' in the revised page 48.

I'd say to conserve on space... but somehow in the revised it ends up taking 5 lines whereas originally it was only 4.

I think maybe because they used a bigger font? If you compare both first sentences end the line on "plus" in spite of revised being shorter.

I guess what omitting 'square' does is allow more white space at the end for a more obvious gap between paragraphs...

Though I notice they expanded the unrevised "ft" abbreviation to "feet" which would seem contrary to that goal.

Either way, in the original goal they still say "plus 10 ft" instead of "plus 10 square ft" so both incarnations rely on assumptions that ft refers to square feet when discussing area.

I don't see either value as nonsense, they're abbreviations which rely on the common sense of the reader to know you don't necessarily have to specify squared.