Bandito SAMAS, a hidden Bonus Monkey!!

[say652]

Both versions(The Sidewinder and Wild Weasel) require the following to operate.
RPA-ELITE SAMAS.
PE 16 minimum.
PP 15 minimum.

And in both descriptions it states the Machines receive both RPA-Basic and RPA-ELITE bonuses.

How are these to be handled in the update to RUE?

[say652]

So, i guess since it's written in the Machines description any character using either one of these obscure PA's does get the combined bonuses then.

[dragonfett]

I would allow the bonuses to stack if (and only if) the person using it meets the requirements of having a PE 16 and a PP 15.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

Hmm, I'm actually reading that it specifically requires RPA Elite, not that it gives out either, otherwise they do not get the special bonuses. If the pilot only has basic, it gets the usual bonuses from having the proficiency and the usual SAMAS suit but not any of the exclusive Sidewinder or Wild Weasel bonuses. The PE and PP requirements are still needed however.

[dragonfett]

Both versions(The Sidewinder and Wild Weasel) require the following to operate.
RPA-ELITE SAMAS.
PE 16 minimum.
PP 15 minimum.

And in both descriptions it states the Machines receive both RPA-Basic and RPA-ELITE bonuses.

How are these to be handled in the update to RUE?

What printing of New West do you have?

[glitterboy2098]

Sidewinder SAMAS, pg184, WB14:

4. Hand to Hand Combat: The Sidewinder is very adept in
hand to hand combat. Its quick reflexes and high strength
give it all of the same damage and bonus capabilities as the
standard, old-style "Death's Head" SAMAS, plus +1 on
initiative, +1 to parry and +2 to dodge in addition to those
normally available to the SAMAS. Power Armor Combat
Training: Basic and Elite applies to the Sidewinder and Wild
Weasel; see Rifts® RPG, page 45.

-snip-

7. Penalties: The Sidewinder is a very demanding power armor
to fly and control. The abrupt movements and high mobility
tend to place many G-forces on the pilot. For this reason the
pilot must have a physical endurance of at least 16 and a
physical prowess of at least 15 in order to fly the Sidewinder.
The pilot should also be specifically trained in SAMAS Elite
piloting skill. Those who are not, don't get the benefit of the
special bonuses attributed by this armor, and are -3 to roll
with punch, fall or impact.

the Wild Weasel entry is practically carbon copy of this.


what this is saying isn't that it is getting the bonuses from both basic and Elite.. it's that you can use either Basic or Elite with the PA.

with both 4 and 7 taken together, what this means is if you have only RPS:basic, you only gethe RPA basic bonuses.

but if you have RPA:Elite in the SAMAS, you get not only the normal RPA elite bonuses, but also the extra parry and dodge bonuses unique to those suits.

if your not up to snuff on your PE and PP stats, even someone with RPA elite doesn't get the suit specific bonuses, and both RPA Basic and RPA Elite pilots suffer a penalty to roll with impact.

[say652]

1998 second printing.

[say652]

Sidewinder SAMAS, pg184, WB14:

4. Hand to Hand Combat: The Sidewinder is very adept in
hand to hand combat. Its quick reflexes and high strength
give it all of the same damage and bonus capabilities as the
standard, old-style "Death's Head" SAMAS, plus +1 on
initiative, +1 to parry and +2 to dodge in addition to those
normally available to the SAMAS. Power Armor Combat
Training: Basic and Elite applies to the Sidewinder and Wild
Weasel; see Rifts® RPG, page 45.

-snip-

7. Penalties: The Sidewinder is a very demanding power armor
to fly and control. The abrupt movements and high mobility
tend to place many G-forces on the pilot. For this reason the
pilot must have a physical endurance of at least 16 and a
physical prowess of at least 15 in order to fly the Sidewinder.
The pilot should also be specifically trained in SAMAS Elite
piloting skill. Those who are not, don't get the benefit of the
special bonuses attributed by this armor, and are -3 to roll
with punch, fall or impact.

the Wild Weasel entry is practically carbon copy of this.


what this is saying isn't that it is getting the bonuses from both basic and Elite.. it's that you can use either Basic or Elite with the PA.

with both 4 and 7 taken together, what this means is if you have only RPS:basic, you only gethe RPA basic bonuses.

but if you have RPA:Elite in the SAMAS, you get not only the normal RPA elite bonuses, but also the extra parry and dodge bonuses unique to those suits.

if your not up to snuff on your PE and PP stats, even someone with RPA elite doesn't get the suit specific bonuses, and both RPA Basic and RPA Elite pilots suffer a penalty to roll with impact.

It also says you need the attribute requirements and RPA-ELITE SAMAS to pilot it or its -3 Roll with impact and none of the special bonuses

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

Yes, which means the bonuses could only stack if and only if the pilot has RPA Elite. Having only Basic gives you RPA Basic bonuses and from the old style Death head SAMAS.

[say652]

So, the short answer is if the Pilot has all the qualifications, Yes.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

Yes. There is a list of them it seems. Haha.

[Zamion138]

Power Armor Combat
Training: Basic and Elite applies to the Sidewinder and Wild
Weasel; see Rifts® RPG, page 45.

I think its either or not both, just poor wording.
Elite Sidewinder pilots would be nearly unstoppable otherwise.
A lv 6 with the right stats would be doing circles around 2 normals cs samas , they should be better not god tier

[say652]

Would explain why the CS hunts down people using the armor.
The bonuses apply.

[Zamion138]

No they dont and meaning both can apply, under the rue rules pg 351 bottom right literally says elite supersedes basic if it is chosen and applies.
Even saying it twice basically.
You dont add them together

[say652]

No they dont and meaning both can apply, under the rue rules pg 351 bottom right literally says elite supersedes basic if it is chosen and applies.
Even saying it twice basically.
You dont add them together

That's just your opinion man.
And when you gm in sure they do not. I see this as one of those special circumstances that flex the rules.
To late now as i made it the house rule in this case Book Specs supercede RUE rules lawyering.

[Axelmania]

"Basic and Elite applies" I would interpret as being that you can use either skill as appropriate.

Some forms of Power Armor cannot enjoy Power Armor Elite's advanced bonuses. Some kinds of Power Armor (Chipwell's in Mercenaries, the Challenger/Assault Suit/Warmonger, pages 144-6) only specify "Power Armor Basic Training" which by omission implies there is no Elite for that suit.

Prior to Ultimate 351's "do not add" statement that Zamion pointed out, does anyone recall any statements like this preventing stacking (not just for SAMAS but anything) between Basic/Elite in any preceding books?

say652 it isn't just Zam's opinion, it's RAW in Ultimate that you don't stack Basic/Elite now. I don't see why you should condemn this as "lawyering" to point that out.

I'm not sure if that was the case when New West came out though.

The problem is with how you're reading New West out of context. It says "Basic and Elite applies to the Sidewinder and Wild
Weasel" but not "applies simultaneously".

Basic applying to those who only have basic and Elite applying to those who have Elite would fulfill this text (either applying based on context) and the text does not necessitate that both must apply for the same character.

I understand how the phrasing is off from what you see elsewhere. Like WB 11 "See Basic and Elite Power Armor Combat Training on page 45" + "in addition to the power armor target bonus and Basic or Elite Power Armor Combat Training bonuses" which we see on 114 for the classic, 116 for Smiling, 119 for Super, 122 for Striker, but I'm pretty sure the New West SAMAS work the same.

[say652]

I give my rulings a 12 hour window here. The naysayers didn't come in quick enough. I play an AntiMonster, so it didn't benefit me. But as they say in Palladium "if unsure Houserule"

[Zamion138]

No they dont and meaning both can apply, under the rue rules pg 351 bottom right literally says elite supersedes basic if it is chosen and applies.
Even saying it twice basically.
You dont add them together

That's just your opinion man.
And when you gm in sure they do not. I see this as one of those special circumstances that flex the rules.
To late now as i made it the house rule in this case Book Specs supercede RUE rules lawyering.

Of course you can make it your house rules, thats never been in question....it makes no sense, as its the only PA in the multiverse that gets this fabled benifit and that includes PA that are so vastly better its staggering like the a-1 avenger or the NE mecha-knight. No one doubts you can rule the mafia in a factory somehow created a PA from pre-rifts tech that is better than still golden age japan, and the NGR or even intersteller multidimensional conquering powers like the splugorth or the TGE.

Dismissing something becuase you want to make it a house rule is like someone arguing an uzi can can hurt a sammas.....then for or five post later correcting you and saying that well in my game sdc is 20 to 1 mdc not 100..........its pointless to have posted it and who is the real rules lawyer that takes AND to mean both when clearly its just a poor use not supposed to mean that. Your grasping at straws.

[Zamion138]

I give my rulings a 12 hour window here. The naysayers didn't come in quick enough. I play an AntiMonster, so it didn't benefit me. But as they say in Palladium "if unsure Houserule"

You wrote it at noon, your own 12 hours isnt even up.

[guardiandashi]

abilities like that have never stacked. you always use the "best" combat skill for a vehicle/power armor.
which means the basic, skill applies UNLESS you have the elite (combat training in Robotech) now in the case of this pair it appears that there is an additional bonus that applies if you have adequate stats, and a penalty that applies if you don't.

[Axelmania]

Dashi that is where I will dare to disagree with you. Cite was provided showing it doesn't stack in Ultimate, but never before? That would mean we have earlier cites? Page 30 and 45 in RMB don't seem to prohibits basic/elite stacking.

Same with hand to hand. I'm not certain anything prohibited a Body Fixer from spending 4+3+2+1=10 other skills to get Assassin/Martial/Expert/Basic and having them all stack.

The only restriction I could find was page 28 saying you can't choose a specific physical skill once. So you couldn't buy Basic twice to double it.

What is the earliest place Rifts outlawed simultaneous use of two HtH? I know ninjas and superspies did it since inception but don't recall so well about other core books.

[Nightmask]

Dashi that is where I will dare to disagree with you. Cite was provided showing it doesn't stack in Ultimate, but never before? That would mean we have earlier cites? Page 30 and 45 in RMB don't seem to prohibits basic/elite stacking.

Same with hand to hand. I'm not certain anything prohibited a Body Fixer from spending 4+3+2+1=10 other skills to get Assassin/Martial/Expert/Basic and having them all stack.

The only restriction I could find was page 28 saying you can't choose a specific physical skill once. So you couldn't buy Basic twice to double it.

What is the earliest place Rifts outlawed simultaneous use of two HtH? I know ninjas and superspies did it since inception but don't recall so well about other core books.

None of the Palladium books have every allowed that, the ONLY instance of being able to not just have but simultaneously use two HtH combat skills together is if memory serves Hwang-do Karate and Moo Gi Gong, and outside of Ninjas and Super-spies none of the other books allow for learning let alone stacking two or more Martial Arts. Same holds true for power armor/robot piloting skills, you can't add the bonuses from Basic and Elite skill because basic is just that, basic it gives you passing familiarity whereas Elite is the superior skill teaching you how to get everything possible out of a particular power armor or robot or narrow range of the same. Basic is subsumed by Elite (and if memory serves taking an Elite skill gives you Basic automatically as a sub-set so obviously you can't stack them).

[ShadowLogan]

(and if memory serves taking an Elite skill gives you Basic automatically as a sub-set so obviously you can't stack them).

It does. Both in RMB and RUE.

[say652]

Sorry the polls are closed and any further discussion on this point is just banter as i had made my decision by the votes cast in the 12 hour window of voting.
Have a good day and stay safe.

[Zamion138]

But it bothers you so we should continue.

[say652]

I had to go with what the book said, it makes sense because of the Requirements to gain the suits bonuses.
Things only have 230mdc anyway. A few missile volleys can handle them if they get out of hand.
Low mdc, Crazy bonuses. Since any Hand to Hand that gives Autododge is specialized i don't really see a problem.
If The CS SAMAS had similar bonuses i could see the issue.
Kind of like most occs in the New West have Sharpshooting, yet the weapons deal low to midrange damage

[Zamion138]

But your argument falls apart with all other PA and robots, its not even that high of a threshold to gain the devastating ability to basicly have 3 HtH skills running congruent.
There are PA that are so fast and agile they get auto dodge for piloting them, a transfered intelligence PA or robot (see ngr 1) gets lower bonuses.
At lv1 (with hth expert) you would have 6 attacks possibly 7 which is massive but not unheard-of, by lv 6 you would have 9 to 10 attacks though, this would be quicker than a juicer somehow. No other robot even those that are so quick and so agile they give plus 1 attack and auto dodge, it would be a good house rule, or make sense to correct if it lined up with reasoning.
Nothing about the two samas is so advanced or unusual that extreme training and upper level physical endurance would make sense to give these huge benifits.
The idea that basic trainging and elite which stacks on nothing else, could somehow be combined also makes no sense, you have to have basic to pick elite, so all elites can be said to be increased knowledge of a system, indeed thats how its described, its not a seprate training, its the increased training.
What rational could it be that they stack? What about this version 1.2 sammas gives it an edge of say the faster small smilling jack.

No one ever claims you cant house rule it but other than the poorly used and does it make sense to use both piloting skills.

[The Beast]

RMB page 39 explains where the bonuses to mecha combat come from. It states that the bonuses come from two places: 1) the pilot's HtH combat skill, and 2) the pilot's mecha combat skill (emphasis mine). If we were meant to combine the basic and elite skills, why is the bolded word in singular form and not plural form?

Also note that the same paragraph says that most first level pilots, with both skills (again, emphasis mine), start with a total of four attacks per melee. If you start with either HtH Basic or Expert (and leave out the TAFL rule and Boxing skill) and add in both the Basic and Elite PA combat forms (or one of the robot forms and Basic Robot Combat) you're starting at five attacks per melee.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[say652]

Irregardless, since i already ruled in favor of the stack for this particular armor.
Personally I'm not a fan, plenty of other ways to munchkin without the skill stack.
But it's a midmdc PA.

[eliakon]

Irregardless, since i already ruled in favor of the stack for this particular armor.
Personally I'm not a fan, plenty of other ways to munchkin without the skill stack.
But it's a midmdc PA.

So was there a point to this thread then?
I am asking since it seems that you "ask a question" that you had already decided on an answer to. And then dismissed any dissent of as being against your previous house rule and that it was thus improper to discuss.
So... what was the purpose of this then? Other than announcing your house rule?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Irregardless, since i already ruled in favor of the stack for this particular armor.
Personally I'm not a fan, plenty of other ways to munchkin without the skill stack.
But it's a midmdc PA.

*tilts head*

So your incapable of changing your mind after an arbitrary time limit has been passed?

I don't too much worry about what your houserules are--by definition they can be anything you want them to be--I just don't understand the rational behind an arbitrary 12 hour time limit nor the inability to change your mind later on. Sinse your houserules are whatever you want them to be, including your houserule about the time limit, then you could first change the time limit houserule then change any other houserule you want anyway.

Not saying you should change it here, I just don't understand why you have an arcane 12 hour time limit in the first place.

[Nightmask]

I had to go with what the book said, it makes sense because of the Requirements to gain the suits bonuses.
Things only have 230mdc anyway. A few missile volleys can handle them if they get out of hand.
Low mdc, Crazy bonuses. Since any Hand to Hand that gives Autododge is specialized i don't really see a problem.
If The CS SAMAS had similar bonuses i could see the issue.
Kind of like most occs in the New West have Sharpshooting, yet the weapons deal low to midrange damage

No you aren't going with what the book said, nor does it make sense to argue that that's what the book says based on the stat requirements. If you have basic you use that, if you have elite you use it, that's it plain and simple you don't use both together because you can't the one is simply the superior version of the other and takes precedence.

[Axelmania]

None of the Palladium books have every allowed that

You sure? Allowing it would not require exicitly saying to stack them, just a lack of condemnation for doing so, since stacking physical skill bonuses is the norm.

If I don't need to be told I can combine Boxing and Wrestling then I don't need to be told I can combine Basic and Expert. Unless of course it was to override a statement saying not to combine them, which must be present in the core rules

RMB page 39 explains where the bonuses to mecha combat come from. It states that the bonuses come from two places: 1) the pilot's HtH combat skill, and 2) the pilot's mecha combat skill (emphasis mine). If we were meant to combine the basic and elite skills, why is the bolded word in singular form and not plural form?

Also note that the same paragraph says that most first level pilots, with both skills (again, emphasis mine), start with a total of four attacks per melee. If you start with either HtH Basic or Expert (and leave out the TAFL rule and Boxing skill) and add in both the Basic and Elite PA combat forms (or one of the robot forms and Basic Robot Combat) you're starting at five attacks per melee.

I looked at this. It only seems to indicate that most characters have one of each. Not that it is a cap.

If we are focusing on the implications of plurality then RMB would support my argument for stacking Basic/Expert if you buy both:

"When outside of the massive battle armor the pilot must rely exclusively on his or her Hand to Hand skills"

[Nightmask]

None of the Palladium books have every allowed that

You sure? Allowing it would not require exicitly saying to stack them, just a lack of condemnation for doing so, since stacking physical skill bonuses is the norm.

If I don't need to be told I can combine Boxing and Wrestling then I don't need to be told I can combine Basic and Expert. Unless of course it was to override a statement saying not to combine them, which must be present in the core rules

You know you've been told repeatedly to quote the ENTIRE post instead of just a piece of it, and combat training: I.E. Hand to Hand skills aren't physical skills like Body Building or Acrobatics they're a synthesis of things that work together. Other than the Ninjas and Super-spies setting every other setting only lets you have one Hand to Hand Skill and the one that does Ninjas and Super-spies is quite clear that you can't combine bonuses from multiple HtH skills, if you're using one HtH you can't use bonuses from another along with it. So you can't add the bonuses to parry from MA X with MA Y, or any of the other features (what few you can are explicit exceptions), that's not how it works.

In the case here Robot Combat: Basic is a sub-feature of Robot Combat: Elite, while it can be learned separately for those who don't feel a need for Elite level training since it's already part of Elite training you can't even remotely add the two together because it's a feature of Elite training. The Basic skill is a component of Elite it's not something separate.

[ShadowLogan]

But your argument falls apart with all other PA and robots, its not even that high of a threshold to gain the devastating ability to basicly have 3 HtH skills running congruent.
There are PA that are so fast and agile they get auto dodge for piloting them, a transfered intelligence PA or robot (see ngr 1) gets lower bonuses.
At lv1 (with hth expert) you would have 6 attacks possibly 7 which is massive but not unheard-of, by lv 6 you would have 9 to 10 attacks though, this would be quicker than a juicer somehow. No other robot even those that are so quick and so agile they give plus 1 attack and auto dodge, it would be a good house rule, or make sense to correct if it lined up with reasoning.
Nothing about the two samas is so advanced or unusual that extreme training and upper level physical endurance would make sense to give these huge benifits.
The idea that basic trainging and elite which stacks on nothing else, could somehow be combined also makes no sense, you have to have basic to pick elite, so all elites can be said to be increased knowledge of a system, indeed thats how its described, its not a seprate training, its the increased training.
What rational could it be that they stack? What about this version 1.2 sammas gives it an edge of say the faster small smilling jack.

No one ever claims you cant house rule it but other than the poorly used and does it make sense to use both piloting skills.

He really hasn't found anything unique in terms of wording. Just flipping through WB8 &WB1, when the PA entry mentions HTH ability and the Power Armor Combat Skill (really part of Robot Combat) they fluctuate between using "and" "or" depending on the specific example to refer to basic or elite, if it even refers to basic or elite at all. So his argument falls apart really.

Are there any canon NPCs that use the Bandito SAMAS that are stated with their bonuses as if they are using the suit?

[say652]

And covering things from RMB to RUE is not the easiest thing to do.
This machine with its unique bonuses is a one in million thing.
As i said previously, I'm not a fan but, they got me with this one.

[say652]

Also since these knockoffs are so deadly, they become a primary target for the opposing force.

[Zamion138]

I have re-written this about 4 times I cant make anything but a snarky remark at best and a mean one at the worst, ill just stop now.
Enjoy your house rule, I disagree with it in both context, spirt, and letter of the rules.

[say652]

Personally, i don't like it. But the argument was sound with no intelligent counter i was stumped. They got me.

[Nightmask]

Personally, i don't like it. But the argument was sound with no intelligent counter i was stumped. They got me.

Uh no the argument wasn't sound and plenty of intelligent countering by everyone.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Personally, i don't like it. But the argument was sound with no intelligent counter i was stumped. They got me.

Again: it's your houserule, why not just change it?

[Axelmania]

combat training: I.E. Hand to Hand skills aren't physical skills like Body Building or Acrobatics they're a synthesis of things that work together.

Running isn't a physical skill like boxing, it doesn't add an extra melee attack and is available as a Secondary skill. Physical skills have many differences that make them alike or unalike to one another. Yet hand to hand skills are listed there, and bonuses always stack where appropriate except where we are told they don't.

Other than the Ninjas and Super-spies setting every other setting only lets you have one Hand to Hand Skill

I'm asking for sources to support that claim. I do believe some games do have a rule saying only one hand to hand. I think I recall seeing it somewhere in Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition and Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition.

I was discussing the history of Palladium Books though, so you must also take the 1st/revised editions into account too.

Are you certain every game, since inception, has had rules saying you can only buy one hand to hand combat skill, or only use one at a time? If you are certain then you can provide citations to support the premise. As soon as a citation is provided, I will move to questioning other games.

Since this is the Rifts forum, the question is if you can find a statement like this in the original Rifts Main Book, or in anything prior to Ultimate Edition.

and the one that does Ninjas and Super-spies is quite clear that you can't combine bonuses from multiple HtH skills, if you're using one HtH you can't use bonuses from another along with it. So you can't add the bonuses to parry from MA X with MA Y, or any of the other features (what few you can are explicit exceptions), that's not how it works.

Ninjas and Superspies historically has very different combat rules than other games, like for example how dodging works. A frequent counter I've seen to bringing up statements in other games is that rules are universe-specific, so relying on N&S statements to prevent HtH stacking bonuses in other games does not seem solid ground to stand on.

In the case here Robot Combat: Basic is a sub-feature of Robot Combat: Elite, while it can be learned separately for those who don't feel a need for Elite level training since it's already part of Elite training you can't even remotely add the two together because it's a feature of Elite training. The Basic skill is a component of Elite it's not something separate.

Getting a lesser skill for free by buying a higher skill doesn't mean you can't use the lesser skill. I can prowl while I'm tightrope walking.

Ultimate establishes the bonuses don't stack. I'm questioning what the earliest instance of the 'don't stack' rule is. Was it in RMB? Late r errata? Or introduced in 2005?

[Nightmask]

combat training: I.E. Hand to Hand skills aren't physical skills like Body Building or Acrobatics they're a synthesis of things that work together.

Running isn't a physical skill like boxing, it doesn't add an extra melee attack and is available as a Secondary skill. Physical skills have many differences that make them alike or unalike to one another. Yet hand to hand skills are listed there, and bonuses always stack where appropriate except where we are told they don't.

Hand to Hand combat training being listed under the Physical category doesn't mean you can go 'well that makes it so they can be added together', that's not a valid conclusion one can make. Hand To Hand Combat is an entire range of things in one package.

Other than the Ninjas and Super-spies setting every other setting only lets you have one Hand to Hand Skill

I'm asking for sources to support that claim. I do believe some games do have a rule saying only one hand to hand. I think I recall seeing it somewhere in Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition and Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition.

I was discussing the history of Palladium Books though, so you must also take the 1st/revised editions into account too.

Are you certain every game, since inception, has had rules saying you can only buy one hand to hand combat skill, or only use one at a time? If you are certain then you can provide citations to support the premise. As soon as a citation is provided, I will move to questioning other games.

Since this is the Rifts forum, the question is if you can find a statement like this in the original Rifts Main Book, or in anything prior to Ultimate Edition.

You're getting fallacious again, trying to muddy the waters and ignore the point being made with distractions and red herrings. You cannot point to a rule allowing multiple hand to hand skills are possible outside of where it's explicitly allowed in Ninjas and Super-spies so you try and muddy things up with distractions.

and the one that does Ninjas and Super-spies is quite clear that you can't combine bonuses from multiple HtH skills, if you're using one HtH you can't use bonuses from another along with it. So you can't add the bonuses to parry from MA X with MA Y, or any of the other features (what few you can are explicit exceptions), that's not how it works.

Ninjas and Superspies historically has very different combat rules than other games, like for example how dodging works. A frequent counter I've seen to bringing up statements in other games is that rules are universe-specific, so relying on N&S statements to prevent HtH stacking bonuses in other games does not seem solid ground to stand on.

Except you can't cite evidence that you can have multiple hand-to-hand skills in Rifts or anywhere else EXCEPT N&SS, and given every character class outside of a few that have a lock on what Hand to Hand they can have explicitly has a stair step of 'upgrade your starting HtH at the expense of so many skills to a higher one' it's quite obvious you can't have two Hand to Hand skills because the better one takes the place of the lesser one.

In the case here Robot Combat: Basic is a sub-feature of Robot Combat: Elite, while it can be learned separately for those who don't feel a need for Elite level training since it's already part of Elite training you can't even remotely add the two together because it's a feature of Elite training. The Basic skill is a component of Elite it's not something separate.

Getting a lesser skill for free by buying a higher skill doesn't mean you can't use the lesser skill. I can prowl while I'm tightrope walking.

Ultimate establishes the bonuses don't stack. I'm questioning what the earliest instance of the 'don't stack' rule is. Was it in RMB? Late r errata? Or introduced in 2005?

Yes it does mean you can't use the lesser skill when said lesser skill is super-ceded by the greater one. You can't both be minimally skilled and extensively skilled at the same time, they're mutually exclusive. Elite piloting skill means you're exceptionally well trained at something, this allows you some level of competence (i.e. basic) in power armors and robots you aren't so well trained in. Your elite ability only functions at basic levels because you're unfamiliar with and not trained in that power armor/robot, you can't combine the two as a result because they aren't really two, they're still just one. Game-wise you may be writing both on your sheet to remind yourself that you've basic competence in robot combat in general but they aren't capable of combining because they aren't separate things the one is just diminished effectiveness of the other.

Like someone not trained in use of a manual transmission but being great at an automatic has some limited ability to handle the manual with effort, his manual skill is effectively basic while his automatic skill is elite. You can't combine the two you can only upgrade that basic manual skill to elite manual skill like you have in automatic. Which again is why you can't use Basic and Elite robot combat together because they aren't separate, stackable things the one is just an inferior expression of the other.

[The Beast]

Other than the Ninjas and Super-spies setting every other setting only lets you have one Hand to Hand Skill

I'm asking for sources to support that claim. I do believe some games do have a rule saying only one hand to hand. I think I recall seeing it somewhere in Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition and Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition.

I was discussing the history of Palladium Books though, so you must also take the 1st/revised editions into account too.

Are you certain every game, since inception, has had rules saying you can only buy one hand to hand combat skill, or only use one at a time? If you are certain then you can provide citations to support the premise. As soon as a citation is provided, I will move to questioning other games.

Since this is the Rifts forum, the question is if you can find a statement like this in the original Rifts Main Book, or in anything prior to Ultimate Edition.

RGMG, page 32 specifies that only characters in N&S get to select more than one HtH form.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Axelmania]

"all Rifts® characters only get ONE Hand to Hand Combat skill." sounds like it could have been describing the maximum you are forced to start with. After all, some characters don't get any combat skill at all. Those that do start with any start with 1.

The GMG came out September 2001, is there anything earlier or should I conclude there was nothing preventing multiple HTHs and stacking for Rifts' first decade?

Hand to Hand combat training being listed under the Physical category doesn't mean you can go 'well that makes it so they can be added together', that's not a valid conclusion one can make. Hand To Hand Combat is an entire range of things in one package.

It is a completely valid conclusion to make prior to any statements to the contrary, like what Beast identified in 2001 in the GMG.

You're getting fallacious again, trying to muddy the waters and ignore the point being made with distractions and red herrings. You cannot point to a rule allowing multiple hand to hand skills are possible outside of where it's explicitly allowed in Ninjas and Super-spies so you try and muddy things up with distractions.

No special ruling is needed, physical skill bonuses are cumulative and do not interfere with one another until we're told otherwise, as in GMG/Ultimate.

Except you can't cite evidence that you can have multiple hand-to-hand skills in Rifts

The burden of proof is yours, I wouldn't necessarily have to find an NPC or OCC example of someone with both Athletics and Boxing to know that it is possible to select 2 different physical skills and benefit from their parry/dodge bonuses.

The evidence for stacking HtH skills is on page 28 of RMB "ALL attribute and skill bonuses are cumulative. However, a specific physical skill may only be chosen once, including hand to hand skills".

As you can see further down the page, or on the Skill List on page 23, Basic/Expert/Martial/Arts are 4 specific physical skills.

Heck, there's not even anything preventing buying any of these 4 for a single secondary skill. Unlike HU and N&SS they didn't include the HTHs on the things you can't buy with Secondary.

Some would read the 'can be selected as other' as forbidding Secondary purchase, and that was probably the intention, but it wasn't the RAW. At best you could interpret this as imposing restrictions on Other Skills and then per page 23 "The same restrictions apply" and I guess if you wanted to nip abuse in the bud, broadly interpret the "none of the skill bonuses apply to secondary skills" to mean that you only get the maneuvers from the HtH, not the bonuses, if you buy it with Secondary, which would discourage that.

a stair step of 'upgrade your starting HtH at the expense of so many skills to a higher one' it's quite obvious you can't have two Hand to Hand skills because the better one takes the place of the lesser one.

I can perceive probably authorial intentions there, but there's a difference between obvious-seeming intentions and obvious-seeming RAW, which appears to have not forbidden multiple HTHS and stacking HTHs prior to 2001's GMG.

it does mean you can't use the lesser skill when said lesser skill is super-ceded by the greater one. You can't both be minimally skilled and extensively skilled at the same time, they're mutually exclusive.

Source? That'd be like saying I can't use Athletics' SPD bonus if I'm using Running's superior SPD bonuses. Or that I can't use Athletics' +1 to parry/dodge if I'm using Boxing's superior +2 parry/dodge. There's no rule like that. RMB page 28 clearly stated "ALL attribute skill bonuses are cumulative", so that's how it worked until 2001 or 2005. Your theory would contradict this statement.

[Nightmask]

"all Rifts® characters only get ONE Hand to Hand Combat skill." sounds like it could have been describing the maximum you are forced to start with. After all, some characters don't get any combat skill at all. Those that do start with any start with 1.

The GMG came out September 2001, is there anything earlier or should I conclude there was nothing preventing multiple HTHs and stacking for Rifts' first decade?

Hand to Hand combat training being listed under the Physical category doesn't mean you can go 'well that makes it so they can be added together', that's not a valid conclusion one can make. Hand To Hand Combat is an entire range of things in one package.

It is a completely valid conclusion to make prior to any statements to the contrary, like what Beast identified in 2001 in the GMG.

No it's not a valid conclusion no matter what you tell yourself.

You're getting fallacious again, trying to muddy the waters and ignore the point being made with distractions and red herrings. You cannot point to a rule allowing multiple hand to hand skills are possible outside of where it's explicitly allowed in Ninjas and Super-spies so you try and muddy things up with distractions.

No special ruling is needed, physical skill bonuses are cumulative and do not interfere with one another until we're told otherwise, as in GMG/Ultimate.

And unsurprisingly you completely ignored the post and posted something unrelated to it, something that does not even remotely mean you can have multiple combat skills nor combine them.

Except you can't cite evidence that you can have multiple hand-to-hand skills in Rifts

The burden of proof is yours, I wouldn't necessarily have to find an NPC or OCC example of someone with both Athletics and Boxing to know that it is possible to select 2 different physical skills and benefit from their parry/dodge bonuses.

The evidence for stacking HtH skills is on page 28 of RMB "ALL attribute and skill bonuses are cumulative. However, a specific physical skill may only be chosen once, including hand to hand skills".

As you can see further down the page, or on the Skill List on page 23, Basic/Expert/Martial/Arts are 4 specific physical skills.

Heck, there's not even anything preventing buying any of these 4 for a single secondary skill. Unlike HU and N&SS they didn't include the HTHs on the things you can't buy with Secondary.

Some would read the 'can be selected as other' as forbidding Secondary purchase, and that was probably the intention, but it wasn't the RAW. At best you could interpret this as imposing restrictions on Other Skills and then per page 23 "The same restrictions apply" and I guess if you wanted to nip abuse in the bud, broadly interpret the "none of the skill bonuses apply to secondary skills" to mean that you only get the maneuvers from the HtH, not the bonuses, if you buy it with Secondary, which would discourage that.

Uh no, you're the one insisting multiple HTH skills are possible in Rifts so it's YOUR burden to support that with text, and since the text says that you can't you're dead wrong.

a stair step of 'upgrade your starting HtH at the expense of so many skills to a higher one' it's quite obvious you can't have two Hand to Hand skills because the better one takes the place of the lesser one.

I can perceive probably authorial intentions there, but there's a difference between obvious-seeming intentions and obvious-seeming RAW, which appears to have not forbidden multiple HTHS and stacking HTHs prior to 2001's GMG.

Well that's obviously false, they've never allowed multiple HtH skills in Rifts and since they never allowed that they couldn't therefor have allowed for stacking them since you can't allow for something that's banned from occurring.

it does mean you can't use the lesser skill when said lesser skill is super-ceded by the greater one. You can't both be minimally skilled and extensively skilled at the same time, they're mutually exclusive.

Source? That'd be like saying I can't use Athletics' SPD bonus if I'm using Running's superior SPD bonuses. Or that I can't use Athletics' +1 to parry/dodge if I'm using Boxing's superior +2 parry/dodge. There's no rule like that. RMB page 28 clearly stated "ALL attribute skill bonuses are cumulative", so that's how it worked until 2001 or 2005. Your theory would contradict this statement.

Okay, seriously, just stop it with the nonsense okay? From cutting out and only responding to part of the post and making sure to leave out the part that explains why you're wasting time with a comment that's already been shot down to posting things that have nothing to do with what's been said as a distraction from the actual post. Your example has NOTHING to do with what was said (hence why you cut out everything said that already disproved what you're posting, because you know it's flawed) and just wastes time.

In any case I'm done with this. You're clearly not addressing anything that's actually being said, you're cutting up responses to make them look like things were said that weren't or to remove the parts that already disprove what you say and since you're categorically wrong to the point of resorting to such tactics since you know you're wrong I'm not wasting any more time on this.

[Axelmania]

No it's not a valid conclusion no matter what you tell yourself.

RMB said all bonuses from skills are cumulative, the text appears to support holding a stacking conclusion until GMG in 2001.

And unsurprisingly you completely ignored the post and posted something unrelated to it, something that does not even remotely mean you can have multiple combat skills nor combine them.

I'm not the one trying to rule via N&S which has Martial Art Forms which work differently than Hand to Hand stills (like for example, stacking with WP bonuses requiring a weapon kata)

Uh no, you're the one insisting multiple HTH skills are possible in Rifts so it's YOUR burden to support that with text, and since the text says that you can't you're dead wrong.

You may be unclear about my position. "Are possible" is present tense. I'm not arguing multiple HTH is CURRENTLY possible in Rifts, I'm arguing it WAS possible from 1990 to 2001 until the GMG's statement came out (arguing about it post-2001 is a separate discussion)

I did support it with text in Rifts' main book physical skill section, which says to stack all bonuses.

A special ruling is not needed to select 2 different physical skills. I don't need a rule to tell me I can take Sword and Staff so I don't need a rule to tell me I can take Basic and Assassin.

Well that's obviously false, they've never allowed multiple HtH skills in Rifts and since they never allowed that they couldn't therefor have allowed for stacking them since you can't allow for something that's banned from occurring.

The ban was explicitly introduced in 2001.

While Rifts has never gone out of its way to say we can have multiple hand to hand skills, nor provided any NPC examples of it, the rules allowed for it for over a decade.

it does mean you can't use the lesser skill when said lesser skill is super-ceded by the greater one. You can't both be minimally skilled and extensively skilled at the same time, they're mutually exclusive.

Source? That'd be like saying I can't use Athletics' SPD bonus if I'm using Running's superior SPD bonuses. Or that I can't use Athletics' +1 to parry/dodge if I'm using Boxing's superior +2 parry/dodge. There's no rule like that. RMB page 28 clearly stated "ALL attribute skill bonuses are cumulative", so that's how it worked until 2001 or 2005. Your theory would contradict this statement.

Okay, seriously, just stop it with the nonsense okay? From cutting out and only responding to part of the post and making sure to leave out the part that explains why you're wasting time with a comment that's already been shot down to posting things that have nothing to do with what's been said as a distraction from the actual post. Your example has NOTHING to do with what was said (hence why you cut out everything said that already disproved what you're posting, because you know it's flawed) and just wastes time.

When posts ramble on, I try to zoom in on what ideas you're expressing to make sense of them.

Athletics gives a minimal skill bonus to Speed. Running gives an extensive skill bonus to Speed.

This is directly tied to your "supersede" argument.

In any case I'm done with this. You're clearly not addressing anything that's actually being said, you're cutting up responses to make them look like things were said that weren't or to remove the parts that already disprove what you say and since you're categorically wrong to the point of resorting to such tactics since you know you're wrong I'm not wasting any more time on this.

What proof did I remove from your post?

[eliakon]

What does it matter when the ban on multiple H2H skills was introduced? (for the record I believe it was earlier but I will have to check)
Robot Combat: Basic and Robot Combat: Elite are not physical skills.
There has never been a rule that says you can stack or combine skills in other categories, such as pilot skills.
Thus regardless of the rule on physical skills that says it applies to physical skills that does not apply to piloting skills.

[Axelmania]

It matters because guardiandashi said "abilities like this have never stacked". Anyway so we can get back to discussing the Bandito specifically there's a new thread about HTH stacking here: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=152140 which I've broadened into a cross-system discussion rather than Rifts in particular. TMNT/HUR/ATB all had clear statements forbidding it, PRPG/Robotech had nothing, HU2/NB/Rifts/M2/PF2 had anti-duplication rules, Splicers/BTS2/Ultimate/Shadow/DR had a "pick one" text almost as good as T/H/A

Eliakon in steering back to the discussion of robot combat and non-physical categories, I would say we don't need any such disclaimer to stack bonuses from piloting skills. Stacking is just how bonuses work by default. I think we need either/or text for them not to stack.

If stacking weren't the default in other categories (no evidence to suggest it isn't) then we'd run into all kinds of problem with Espionage (Sniper), Pilot Related (Weapon Systems), Technical (RPG design) and Weapon Proficiency.

Bonuses have never been a "choose one of the other" or "choose the best" policy except when we're told of that kind of dilemma.

I don't see what the big deal would be in stacking basic/elite robot combat, the idea of elite bonuses alone still seemed pretty underwhelming.

At first I'd think it'd be crazy/juicer lovers against this, but those guys can pilot PA too, so it must be the mages and 'I can battle PA naked' supernatural players.