Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

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Axelmania
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Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

In both the original and Ultimate editions, Guided was +3 to strike and Smart was +5 to strike, + 4 to dodge

I just noticed something different in recent world books through:

Northern Gun 1 (33)
p155 "Bonus: +1 to strike; guided missiles."
p218 "making the drone system the equivalent of a smart missile with bonuses of +3 to strike, +1 to dodge"

Northern Gun 2 (34)
p187 "Like any guided missiles, they are +3 to strike."
p229 "Bonus: +1 to strike; guided missiles."

It seems like in spite of the "any guided" statement that there might be a lower grade of guided out there which have inferior bonuses... that or it's something like a built-in -2 to strike for guided missiles for these 2 specific launching systems for reasons I don't understand.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by DhAkael »

Game Ballance (tm). :roll: :frust:
Kevin Siembiada is known for pulling this kinda thing constantly.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

i would point out that the "p155 "Bonus: +1 to strike; guided missiles." and "p229 "Bonus: +1 to strike; guided missiles." could also mean that the launcher provides a +1 strike to the missiles it fires.. and it typically is loaded with guided missiles. (with their +3 to strike)
RUE, when it established that unguided was the norm, went on to say that specific vehicle entries in the books would specify whether a unit uses guided missiles or not. this is probably what is going on here. at the time RUE came out this was largely a useless entry since no pre-RUE (and many of the post-RUE works that were in writing at the time) didn't include such specific details.


i could buy though that there could be several 'grades' of guidance.. compare an AIM-9 sidewinder from the 60's to one to today and you get widely different levels of accuracy. (the earliest sidewinders in the 50's and early 60's were simple IR homing, could only lock on from a narrow angle behind the targets engines, and were easily spoofed by flares. the 2nd generation in the 70's add 'all aspect' ability with better IR cameras, able to lock on from any angle not just behind. and they were given the ability to discern the real target from flares.. the latest generations from the 90's and to now could lock on outside their own field of view or after launch thanks to datalinks, use those same links to improve targeting with data from radar and sensors on the plane, are pretty much immune to most spoofing, and are highly agile to prevent the target from doing aerobatics to escape.)

it would make sense that you have an 'inferior' guidance option for missiles.. the products of companies that either can't do full guidance but want a chunk of that market.. or companies that want to corner the market entirely by offering every possible variation.. in this case unguided, inferior guidance, quality guidance, and smart.. all at different prices.

but that would be house rules currently.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Does anyone know examples of launcher bonuses stacking with guided +3? I thought it was natural unmodified except for the +3 and that weapon systems or WP or targeting or robot combat only applied shooting unguided.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

and yet, Guided Missiles were still +5 strike in RUE.

Also in the NG book, it says the CS is pressuring NG to not sell tech that could potentially rival or endanger the CS's own. sinse Air Superiority is the most important thing in high tech combat, it's entirely possible the NG is deliberately downgrading guided missiles to give the CS an edge. it's the kind of thing Allies do for each-other, and they are offically allies now. NG just quietly flooded the market with downgraded missile tech to give the CS an edge.

also: Launchers in Rifts rarely have any kind of innate bonus to strike. i've only seen them on mini-missiles, and only the Republic of Japan has guided mini missiles. and their launchers don't have any innate bonus.

In Robotech, launcher bonus will stack with Guided Bonus, so we know it's possible, just not who on rifts earth has that kind of tech.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

I think what you are refering to is platform specific bonus to guided missiles that is addressed in the second paragraph of missile strike rules.

The platforms bonus would only apply to guided missiles not unguided.

Guided missiles are +3 smart +5. No need to over think it.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

and actually, RUE pg 364 under missile strikes does not actually say that the launcher bonus does not stack with the guided bonus. just that launchers may provide a bonus, and that such launchers are "uncommon". while obviously this has the biggest impact on unguided missiles, rules as they are written does not preclude the stacking of bonuses for guided missiles.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:and yet, Guided Missiles were still +5 strike in RUE

incorrect. if you look at pg364 it says that guided missiles are +3 to strike, while Smart bombs are +5 to strike and have a +4 dodge.

this has not changed since the old RMB. only the prevalence of guidance was changed in RUE.


Blue_Lion wrote:The platforms bonus would only apply to guided missiles not unguided.

actually unless the launcher entry says specifically it only applies to one but not the other, it applies to both.



given that unguided missiles merely have no bonus to strike per RUE instead of a -4 like bombs and other such weapons, it is safe to assume that missiles have at least a basic system for steering and directing themselves to the target. on unguided missiles this is likely based on preprogrammed courses uploaded by the firing unit (which would also explain how minimissiles can be fired from many of the launchers on power armor and robots that do not face any useful direction) the launcher bonus would be computer and sensor related systems for calculating better shots.

on a guided missile this would not go away, since those too can benefit from preprogrammed courses.. fired on their way using such, their own onboard seeker systems would work much more effectively. (most modern missiles in fact use this approach.. they are launched at the target based on calculations and uploaded courses, and their own seekers only go active after closing to close near the target, where the target cannot hope to break lock. the development of this set up is one of the reasons that modern missiles are so much more reliable and effective than the vietnam war systems and those prior. the most advanced missiles today can even be steered in flight by radio link using the radar or optical sensors, the firing vehicles computers feeding the missile course updates to ensure that if the target tries to evoid the original preplotted course, it can still get close enough for its own seeker to activate.)
Last edited by glitterboy2098 on Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

glitterboy2098 wrote:and actually, RUE pg 364 under missile strikes does not actually say that the launcher bonus does not stack with the guided bonus. just that launchers may provide a bonus, and that such launchers are "uncommon". while obviously this has the biggest impact on unguided missiles, rules as they are written does not preclude the stacking of bonuses for guided missiles.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:and yet, Guided Missiles were still +5 strike in RUE

incorrect. if you look at pg364 it says that guided missiles are +3 to strike, while Smart bombs are +5 to strike and have a +4 dodge.

this has not changed since the old RMB. only the prevalence of guidance was changed in RUE.


I wonder when "Guided" and "Smart" diverged, they used to be synonmous with the same thing.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I wonder when "Guided" and "Smart" diverged, they used to be synonmous with the same thing.

actually no, they never have.

i think you are getting confused over the fact that prior to RUE, the difference was between "standard missiles" (RUE's guided) and "smart bombs" (RUE's smart guidance), with no option for unguided beyond minimissiles. since the guided nature of the old missiles was considered automatic, no special term was given to them, and "smart" was the only avilable upgrade.

now unguided is the defualt, and we have two levels of upgrade, Guided and smart, instead of just Smart. which for people used to the old system, can lead to confusion.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

From the now locked thread, since we're talking about missiles here:

(this one is from Axel)

Tetsuya if you opt to exclude all previous books (which Ultimate does NOT say to do anywhere that I can see) then how would you know how many attacks per melee round a smart missile has? As far as I can tell page 364 only mentions a strike bonus and a dodge bonus but it doesn't declare how many attacks per melee.

So to get that, you must rely on previous books.


No, but as RUE is the core rulebook, it DOES completely over-ride the no-longer-in-print-or-available Rifts Main Rulebook. It doesn't invalidate other books in the line, but it DOES invalidate the RMB.... the mere idea that to properly use the core rulebook (RUE) you have to own the PREVIOUS, OUT OF PRINT Core Rulebook, is absurd on its face.

For instance - as RUE says that Smart Missiles are the province of high tech powers, you can find those stats in CS War Campaign, Mercenaries (edit: not in here; for whatever reason, i was remembering the new missile chart being in here for some reason), and the NG books (as well as possibly Triax? - books are still boxed up from moving my office, dont feel like checking). So no, you dont need to refer to the RMB.

RUE's rules are totally self contained and (as far as Palladium goes), playable.

The book doesn't say anywhere that the other missiles can't get a WP bonus.


True, i pointed that out in the other thread as well.

It just explicitly gives mini-missiles as something which does. "Weapons built into combat vehicles and giant robots" can also cover short-range missile launchers or medium-range missile launchers. The UAR1's short/medium missiles are built into it and it is a giant robot.

8+ does not specify non-missile so I must assume it applies to all missiles used in range combat.


No, a more specific rule later in the book over-rides this.

So the 5+ must apply at very close range, such as a missile directing itself or someone shooting unguided missiles at point-blank.


There is absolutely nothing in the rules to support this. The rule is quite clear. All missiles strike on a 5 or better (it actually says anything greater than 4). Period.

On a separate note, something else worth highlighting here guys about guided missile volleys.

Did you know that you actually roll individually for each guided missile in the volley?


No, actually you dont. Well cover that in a moment.

363 "NOT guided missiles. That's why they require a roll to strike and why an entire volley either hits or misses"


This text is nowhere to be seen on RUE page 363, which is a half-page with art and the missile chart.

364 "This speeds up combat and makes sense, since most missiles are not guided"

It's clear the single strike roll per volley is only for unguided missiles, because they're fired in a single go and a single aim by a missileer (like a burst).


No, you're imagining things. There is absolutely NOTHING in the "Missile Volleys" sub-header that says "roll for each missile if they are guided". It doesn't say that this rule only applies to non-guided missiles, anywhere in the text. Also, further up the page, under "Missile Terms", it defines what a volley is and that it requires only a single roll to strike, with NO separation between unguided and guided/smart of any kind.

It just says that you roll to strike once for the entire volley. Period. Anything else you're making up and adding in your head. Its literally right there on the page.

The implication here is that "an entire volley either hits or misses" does not apply with a guided volley. The context of a single roll is the assumption of unguided missiles.


No, it isn't. There are no "implications" in game mechanics. There are stated game mechanics. There may be spots the rules dont cover, where the GM has to make a call (particularly with Palladium) but this is not one of them. These are clear, unequivocal statements.

The impossibility of dodging 4+ missile volleys also specifies "guided" so you could possibly dodge a 10+ unguided mini-missile volley.


Funny, i see nothing like that in the text on dodging missiles:

RUE wrote:A volley of four or more missiles will strike every time (as long as the attack was successful), with each and every missile in the volley hitting its target and inflicting damage"


No mention of any kind about guided, smart, or dumbfire. Just "a volley of four or more missiles". Period.

Now, if we want to get into arguing wether or not the rules are good, make sense, or are functional, that's an entirely different topic. I personally find Palladium's combat rules in particular to be needlessly complex, overly fatal in some cases and way too survivable in others, and barely mechanically functional.

If i were to run a new Rifts game (ive been kicking around the idea over the winter when im not busy) i'd have to re-write the entire system to make it functional and not take six hours for a six round combat.

That's not the topic, though. THe topic is how the rules as written read and function - and they are clear (and uncommonly, for Palladium) concise on this topic.
Last edited by Colonel_Tetsuya on Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

can we NOT drag over arguments from other (CLOSED) threads?
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

glitterboy2098 wrote:and actually, RUE pg 364 under missile strikes does not actually say that the launcher bonus does not stack with the guided bonus. just that launchers may provide a bonus, and that such launchers are "uncommon". while obviously this has the biggest impact on unguided missiles, rules as they are written does not preclude the stacking of bonuses for guided missiles.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:and yet, Guided Missiles were still +5 strike in RUE

incorrect. if you look at pg364 it says that guided missiles are +3 to strike, while Smart bombs are +5 to strike and have a +4 dodge.

this has not changed since the old RMB. only the prevalence of guidance was changed in RUE.


Blue_Lion wrote:The platforms bonus would only apply to guided missiles not unguided.

actually unless the launcher entry says specifically it only applies to one but not the other, it applies to both.



given that unguided missiles merely have no bonus to strike per RUE instead of a -4 like bombs and other such weapons, it is safe to assume that missiles have at least a basic system for steering and directing themselves to the target. on unguided missiles this is likely based on preprogrammed courses uploaded by the firing unit (which would also explain how minimissiles can be fired from many of the launchers on power armor and robots that do not face any useful direction) the launcher bonus would be computer and sensor related systems for calculating better shots.

on a guided missile this would not go away, since those too can benefit from preprogrammed courses.. fired on their way using such, their own onboard seeker systems would work much more effectively. (most modern missiles in fact use this approach.. they are launched at the target based on calculations and uploaded courses, and their own seekers only go active after closing to close near the target, where the target cannot hope to break lock. the development of this set up is one of the reasons that modern missiles are so much more reliable and effective than the vietnam war systems and those prior. the most advanced missiles today can even be steered in flight by radio link using the radar or optical sensors, the firing vehicles computers feeding the missile course updates to ensure that if the target tries to evoid the original preplotted course, it can still get close enough for its own seeker to activate.)

I was refering to his quote +1 to guided. That is not saying guided is +1 but in addition to+3 for being guided sorry I was not clearer.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

As
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:From the now locked thread, since we're talking about missiles here:

(this one is from Axel)

Tetsuya if you opt to exclude all previous books (which Ultimate does NOT say to do anywhere that I can see) then how would you know how many attacks per melee round a smart missile has? As far as I can tell page 364 only mentions a strike bonus and a dodge bonus but it doesn't declare how many attacks per melee.

So to get that, you must rely on previous books.


No, but as RUE is the core rulebook, it DOES completely over-ride the no-longer-in-print-or-available Rifts Main Rulebook. It doesn't invalidate other books in the line, but it DOES invalidate the RMB.... the mere idea that to properly use the core rulebook (RUE) you have to own the PREVIOUS, OUT OF PRINT Core Rulebook, is absurd on its face.

For instance - as RUE says that Smart Missiles are the province of high tech powers, you can find those stats in CS War Campaign, Mercenaries (edit: not in here; for whatever reason, i was remembering the new missile chart being in here for some reason), and the NG books (as well as possibly Triax? - books are still boxed up from moving my office, dont feel like checking). So no, you dont need to refer to the RMB.

RUE's rules are totally self contained and (as far as Palladium goes), playable.

The book doesn't say anywhere that the other missiles can't get a WP bonus.


True, i pointed that out in the other thread as well.

It just explicitly gives mini-missiles as something which does. "Weapons built into combat vehicles and giant robots" can also cover short-range missile launchers or medium-range missile launchers. The UAR1's short/medium missiles are built into it and it is a giant robot.

8+ does not specify non-missile so I must assume it applies to all missiles used in range combat.


No, a more specific rule later in the book over-rides this.

So the 5+ must apply at very close range, such as a missile directing itself or someone shooting unguided missiles at point-blank.


There is absolutely nothing in the rules to support this. The rule is quite clear. All missiles strike on a 5 or better (it actually says anything greater than 4). Period.

On a separate note, something else worth highlighting here guys about guided missile volleys.

Did you know that you actually roll individually for each guided missile in the volley?


No, actually you dont. Well cover that in a moment.

363 "NOT guided missiles. That's why they require a roll to strike and why an entire volley either hits or misses"


This text is nowhere to be seen on RUE page 363, which is a half-page with art and the missile chart.

364 "This speeds up combat and makes sense, since most missiles are not guided"

It's clear the single strike roll per volley is only for unguided missiles, because they're fired in a single go and a single aim by a missileer (like a burst).


No, you're imagining things. There is absolutely NOTHING in the "Missile Volleys" sub-header that says "roll for each missile if they are guided". It doesn't say that this rule only applies to non-guided missiles, anywhere in the text. Also, further up the page, under "Missile Terms", it defines what a volley is and that it requires only a single roll to strike, with NO separation between unguided and guided/smart of any kind.

It just says that you roll to strike once for the entire volley. Period. Anything else you're making up and adding in your head. Its literally right there on the page.

The implication here is that "an entire volley either hits or misses" does not apply with a guided volley. The context of a single roll is the assumption of unguided missiles.


No, it isn't. There are no "implications" in game mechanics. There are stated game mechanics. There may be spots the rules dont cover, where the GM has to make a call (particularly with Palladium) but this is not one of them. These are clear, unequivocal statements.

The impossibility of dodging 4+ missile volleys also specifies "guided" so you could possibly dodge a 10+ unguided mini-missile volley.


Funny, i see nothing like that in the text on dodging missiles:

RUE wrote:A volley of four or more missiles will strike every time (as long as the attack was successful), with each and every missile in the volley hitting its target and inflicting damage"


No mention of any kind about guided, smart, or dumbfire. Just "a volley of four or more missiles". Period.

Now, if we want to get into arguing wether or not the rules are good, make sense, or are functional, that's an entirely different topic. I personally find Palladium's combat rules in particular to be needlessly complex, overly fatal in some cases and way too survivable in others, and barely mechanically functional.

If i were to run a new Rifts game (ive been kicking around the idea over the winter when im not busy) i'd have to re-write the entire system to make it functional and not take six hours for a six round combat.

That's not the topic, though. THe topic is how the rules as written read and function - and they are clear (and uncommonly, for Palladium) concise on this topic.

Do not drag a closed debate into a new thread that is a no no.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

BL as the creator of both threads I consent to CT doing this. The previous was closed because the line of discussion deviated from the title. As this one's title conforms more closely to the discussion line, hopefully that won't happen again. J is a competent guy though.

If you won't rely on the main book then what book will you rely on to find out how many attacks per melee a smart missile has? Or would you have it default to the 1 attack per melee things have without HTH as a nerf from the many attacks it originally had to attack or dodge with?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:It doesn't invalidate other books in the line

Cool GMG then let's see what we can find on general topic...page 32:
Are Hand to Hand bonuses combined with Weapon Proficiencies?
Yes, for melee -weapons like clubs, swords, spears, bow and arrow,
etc. So if you have +1 to strike from the Hand to Hand: Basic combat
skill and +1 with W.P. Sword and +2 from the P.P. attribute, the character
will be +4 to strike.
No, for modern -weapons; i.e. guns and missiles. The W.P. itself
presents the only applicable shooting/strike bonus.

page 41:
Definitive Dodging Rules vs Ranged Attacks - Incoming gunfire from rail guns, energy blasts, launched grenades,
missiles, and other high-speed projectiles is really difficult to dodge.


page 114:
two modes: guided and direct. On guided mode, the rocketeer simply designates a target through an aiming point projected into the face plate of his helmet. When he lines up the electronic cross-hairs on the target, the missile launches itself from the backpack and arcs towards the target (+3 to strike). On direct fire mode, the soldier lifts the tube and fires it over the shoulder like a bazooka (use the soldier's W.P. bonuses for aimed fire).


page 122 on the CTT-M20
Remember, mini-missiles are self-guided, so once launched they will find their target.


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:but it DOES invalidate the RMB.... the mere idea that to properly use the core rulebook (RUE) you have to own the PREVIOUS, OUT OF PRINT Core Rulebook, is absurd on its face.

Yet... no attacks per melee visible for Smart Missiles. Also nothing which can fire Long Range Missiles in RMB or Ultimate, to my knowledge. Core books aren't always guaranteed to have 100% of their content be usable.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:For instance - as RUE says that Smart Missiles are the province of high tech powers, you can find those stats in CS War Campaign, Mercenaries (edit: not in here; for whatever reason, i was remembering the new missile chart being in here for some reason), and the NG books (as well as possibly Triax? - books are still boxed up from moving my office, dont feel like checking). So no, you dont need to refer to the RMB.

Which of these books you have mentioned have printed the attacks per melee for smart missiles, and where?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:RUE's rules are totally self contained and (as far as Palladium goes), playable.

Unless you're a Shifter wanting to summon a minion, in that case buy more books.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:No, a more specific rule later in the book over-rides this.

A rule about missiles striking, not about missileers/missilemen striking.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
So the 5+ must apply at very close range, such as a missile directing itself or someone shooting unguided missiles at point-blank.


There is absolutely nothing in the rules to support this. The rule is quite clear. All missiles strike on a 5 or better (it actually says anything greater than 4). Period.

The issue is whether it's the missile striking or the missileer striking.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
363 "NOT guided missiles. That's why they require a roll to strike and why an entire volley either hits or misses"

This text is nowhere to be seen on RUE page 363, which is a half-page with art and the missile chart.

4th paragraph, it's on the line that begins with a bolded Mini-Missiles.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
364 "This speeds up combat and makes sense, since most missiles are not guided"

It's clear the single strike roll per volley is only for unguided missiles, because they're fired in a single go and a single aim by a missileer (like a burst).


No, you're imagining things. There is absolutely NOTHING in the "Missile Volleys" sub-header that says "roll for each missile if they are guided". It doesn't say that this rule only applies to non-guided missiles, anywhere in the text.

You have to read between the lines. It's giving a general guideline (not a concrete rule) because most missiles are unguided. That's why it says "This speeds up combat" and "most missiles are not guided".

It's operating under the assumption you're not using guided missiles.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:further up the page, under "Missile Terms", it defines what a volley is and that it requires only a single roll to strike, with NO separation between unguided and guided/smart of any kind.

This is just a summarization of the general guidelines which assume unguided missiles such as mini-missiles being the norm, as we see on 364/365. They are talked about as if they are an exception to how guided missiles work, in both places.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:There are no "implications" in game mechanics. There are stated game mechanics. There may be spots the rules dont cover, where the GM has to make a call (particularly with Palladium) but this is not one of them. These are clear, unequivocal statements.

If we are told that a volley of mini-missiles takes 1 strike roll BECAUSE they are unguided, that means without the unguided qualifier that 1 strike roll is not the established way it would work for non-unguided missiles.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The impossibility of dodging 4+ missile volleys also specifies "guided" so you could possibly dodge a 10+ unguided mini-missile volley.

Funny, i see nothing like that in the text on dodging missiles:

That section doesn't put a numerical cap on volley dodging. That occurs in the previous section which specifies 'guided'.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
RUE wrote:A volley of four or more missiles will strike every time (as long as the attack was successful), with each and every missile in the volley hitting its target and inflicting damage"

No mention of any kind about guided, smart, or dumbfire. Just "a volley of four or more missiles". Period.

Only if you read it out of context. The top of 364's right column is a continuation of a section that begins on the bottom of 364's left which says "even three guided missiles". Why specify 'guided' if they're giving general rules for all missiles?
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

You do know that it is always the thing launched/fired/shot that hits in any range attack not the person using the weapon.

If I shoot my M4 at a target the bullet either strikes the target or missis the target. I only strike the target if I run up to punch it.

So the wording in the rule for missile strikes does not exclude unguided.

The rule on vollies and dodging once was in contexthas fliped flipped over time some books said guided some said nissile. Weather or not the rule as written in rue as pplies to unguided may be the subject of a gm call.

Carefull you do not add non existent context to rules.

Current rules fallow last rule written is current, so pulling from older books to counter newer books is not valid.

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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

I was in the process of responding when Jeffar locked the other thread, but on pg 364 of RUE it explicitly calls out that ALL volleys whether guided or unguided only make a single strike roll for all missiles, and its an all or nothing hit check, dodging however does mention that 4 or more guided missiles cannot be dodged
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by dreicunan »

As usual, the rules for this part of combat are poorly worded with plenty of phrases that can mislead a person. After reading through it, it appears that the line about rolling to strike for volleys making sense is descriptive, so it should not be taken to exclude guided missiles (even though it should, since it is, in theory, the missile itself that is rolling to strike).
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Axelmania wrote:In both the original and Ultimate editions, Guided was +3 to strike and Smart was +5 to strike, + 4 to dodge

Actually no. In Rifts Ultimate Edition (1st Printing) on pg364 under "Missile Strikes" section:
-"Some launch systems or additional targeting system may provide a +1 to +3 strike, but even that is rather unccommon."
-"The rare guided missiles are +3 to strike" is later, which could be read as best possible, and mentions Smart.
-"most self-guided missiles", and then adds a bit of technical detail.

So really guided missiles in Rifts as of UE are between a +1 and +3 to strike, they are not a flat +3 PLUS launcher/targeting system. There appears to be x2 types of guided missiles given "self guided" isn't used previously to describe guidance (in RL missile guidance can depend on the launcher guiding it all the way in):
-self-guided missiles which operate a specific way described, which is pretty much "fire and forget", and is a simpler version of Smart (IMHO based on text)
-guided missiles that rely on an external launcher/targeting system for guidance

You probably aren't going to find to many examples of launcher/targeting system bonuses outside of post RUE-titles in Rifts, so I'm not sure how to handle RMB-era books in the RUE-era rules (do we treat them as guided, self-guided, or not).
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

except thqat RUE is specific the +1 to +3 is Launcher provided bonuses, not missile guidance provided. and that missiles are available in unguided (no guidance bonus), guided (+3 bonus) and smart (+5, +4 dodge)

and the way the game rules work, unless you have a specific line saying they don't stack, launcher provided bonuses always stack with other applicable bonuses like the missile guidance bonuses.

and RUE pg364 doesn't say that they don't stack.

so if the launcher is giving a +1, that means unguided would be +1, guided would be +4, and Smart would be +6.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Axelmania wrote:Does anyone know examples of launcher bonuses stacking with guided +3? I thought it was natural unmodified except for the +3 and that weapon systems or WP or targeting or robot combat only applied shooting unguided.

Yes. Missiles get bonus from weapon system skill, IIRC, which is supposed to be the characters expertise with the targeting system. (RP reason not having weapon systems is a bad thing... your PC doesn't know the differenice between caged, unchanged and slave mode, and frequently releases before lock on or, apparently in Rifts, system target acquisition, since the missiles are "dumb" which either mean they're passive sensors or just rockets... I don't think there has been clarification.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Blue_Lion wrote:You do know that it is always the thing launched/fired/shot that hits in any range attack not the person using the weapon.

We are discussing how palladium uses the word strike, not hit. Strike has been used to describe a mere attempt.

Blue_Lion wrote:If I shoot my M4 at a target the bullet either strikes the target or missis the target. I only strike the target if I run up to punch it.
By palladium vocab it can be a strike before you even made a roll. The attempt is the strike, not the success.

Blue_Lion wrote:Note-your consent to drag a closed debate to a new thread is not the issue, admin can lock threads for such behavore. That is why doing so is a no no.

It is a no no if closed for reasons applicable in both threads. If the reason is just the.relation to the title then the reason ends with the locked one.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

glitterboy2098 wrote:except thqat RUE is specific the +1 to +3 is Launcher provided bonuses, not missile guidance provided. and that missiles are available in unguided (no guidance bonus), guided (+3 bonus) and smart (+5, +4 dodge)

and the way the game rules work, unless you have a specific line saying they don't stack, launcher provided bonuses always stack with other applicable bonuses like the missile guidance bonuses.

and RUE pg364 doesn't say that they don't stack.

so if the launcher is giving a +1, that means unguided would be +1, guided would be +4, and Smart would be +6.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. It might be better if there was a combat example in RUE to showcase the rules in action to help clarify muddled issues like this (and other aspects of combat) as there had been in pre-RUE days..

I will note though that it says "launch systems or targeting system", so it just isn't the launcher. The targeting system needs to be at least in part on the missile to help guide it to the target.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

No, targeting g system is separate from guidance. Palladium has always made a distinction from guidance and targeting system.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

I like this discussion. I don't agree with half of it, but part of the fun of these forums is how far people can stretch a bit of text that not that much thought was put into. :D
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:and actually, RUE pg 364 under missile strikes does not actually say that the launcher bonus does not stack with the guided bonus. just that launchers may provide a bonus, and that such launchers are "uncommon". while obviously this has the biggest impact on unguided missiles, rules as they are written does not preclude the stacking of bonuses for guided missiles.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:and yet, Guided Missiles were still +5 strike in RUE

incorrect. if you look at pg364 it says that guided missiles are +3 to strike, while Smart bombs are +5 to strike and have a +4 dodge.

this has not changed since the old RMB. only the prevalence of guidance was changed in RUE.

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I wonder when "Guided" and "Smart" diverged, they used to be synonmous with the same thing.

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I do wish they talk about the types of rockets by their specifie types…
unguided (aka Rockets)
Guided ( laser or fly by wire/radio )
Self Guided
Smart warheads (better self guided)

So we would KNOW which type they are <descriptive adverb> talking about.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Are there any examples where "guided" is used and it's explicitly not "self-guided". I always figured guided was short for self-guided since wherever I can remember it being defined they usually specify it meant 'self'.

Though obviously never JUST self since the pilot does the initial designation and designating an end location is a necessary part of guidance even if you then have the guide do most of the guiding to map the route and course corrections to that location.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Axelmania wrote:Are there any examples where "guided" is used and it's explicitly not "self-guided". I always figured guided was short for self-guided since wherever I can remember it being defined they usually specify it meant 'self'.

Though obviously never JUST self since the pilot does the initial designation and designating an end location is a necessary part of guidance even if you then have the guide do most of the guiding to map the route and course corrections to that location.

to the best of my knowledge "guided" has always been the +3 to strike guided missiles, or the +5 to his smart bombs/reflex missiles (in robotech/Macross) its part of the reason I reject the "claim" that most missiles are "unguided" in RUE, unless they are talking about the huge numbers of mini-missiles now in use.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

If it had merely said most missiles that would be how I would explain it. Using unguided beyond a mile is hard to imagine too since vision doesn't go that far. I guess using radar does gve blindness penalties?

The wording seems to imply all except lrms and multi mediums are mostly unguided though. Unless wasting their range advantage I can't see why you wouod use mediums at close enoughnrange to see your target.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Human vision can pick out a human size object at sustainable nder two miles and see a candle and candle flame at 30 miles from high vantage point since horizon distance is normally only 3.1 miless. Beyond that you'd be using unguided missiles like artillery rockets... because if they are truly unguided then they ARE just rockets.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

guardiandashi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Are there any examples where "guided" is used and it's explicitly not "self-guided". I always figured guided was short for self-guided since wherever I can remember it being defined they usually specify it meant 'self'.

Though obviously never JUST self since the pilot does the initial designation and designating an end location is a necessary part of guidance even if you then have the guide do most of the guiding to map the route and course corrections to that location.

to the best of my knowledge "guided" has always been the +3 to strike guided missiles, or the +5 to his smart bombs/reflex missiles (in robotech/Macross) its part of the reason I reject the "claim" that most missiles are "unguided" in RUE, unless they are talking about the huge numbers of mini-missiles now in use.

All rifts missiles should be guided but none should be Reflex smart.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Are there any examples where "guided" is used and it's explicitly not "self-guided". I always figured guided was short for self-guided since wherever I can remember it being defined they usually specify it meant 'self'.

Though obviously never JUST self since the pilot does the initial designation and designating an end location is a necessary part of guidance even if you then have the guide do most of the guiding to map the route and course corrections to that location.

to the best of my knowledge "guided" has always been the +3 to strike guided missiles, or the +5 to his smart bombs/reflex missiles (in robotech/Macross) its part of the reason I reject the "claim" that most missiles are "unguided" in RUE, unless they are talking about the huge numbers of mini-missiles now in use.

All rifts missiles should be guided but none should be Reflex smart.


kind of my point.
short range missiles, medium range and long range missiles should ALL default to the +3 to hit of guided missiles, with a few of the "best" missiles having an option to be "smart bombs" with the +5 to hit bonus.

I was thinking of something again the other day regarding the "multi warhead" missiles
if the multi warhead missiles effectively launch a salvo of 4 missiles (of the next category smaller) when they get "close" to the target, wouldn't that mean that effectively those "sub missiles" by definition cannot be dodged, because even a single multi-warhead would turn into a volley of 4 missiles as it closes into attack range.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

i believe that is how most GM's run it.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

guardiandashi wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Are there any examples where "guided" is used and it's explicitly not "self-guided". I always figured guided was short for self-guided since wherever I can remember it being defined they usually specify it meant 'self'.

Though obviously never JUST self since the pilot does the initial designation and designating an end location is a necessary part of guidance even if you then have the guide do most of the guiding to map the route and course corrections to that location.

to the best of my knowledge "guided" has always been the +3 to strike guided missiles, or the +5 to his smart bombs/reflex missiles (in robotech/Macross) its part of the reason I reject the "claim" that most missiles are "unguided" in RUE, unless they are talking about the huge numbers of mini-missiles now in use.

All rifts missiles should be guided but none should be Reflex smart.


kind of my point.
short range missiles, medium range and long range missiles should ALL default to the +3 to hit of guided missiles, with a few of the "best" missiles having an option to be "smart bombs" with the +5 to hit bonus.

I was thinking of something again the other day regarding the "multi warhead" missiles
if the multi warhead missiles effectively launch a salvo of 4 missiles (of the next category smaller) when they get "close" to the target, wouldn't that mean that effectively those "sub missiles" by definition cannot be dodged, because even a single multi-warhead would turn into a volley of 4 missiles as it closes into attack range.


Absolutely not. They should either be +3 or rockets NO smart. A smart bomb should just be a bomb with a +3 to strike.

If we want to get more specific then we should go with other guidance systems with different accuracies. But no missile dodges attacks. Not even in robotech. Reflex as just accuracies tracks her yield, no enhanced guidance and the standard missiles should have had accuracies tracks onus to dodge but only because they danced so should have been harder to hit. Which should be handled like auto-dodge from Ninjas & Superspies a roll at the beginning that counts toward all attacks. An unguided missile isn't all missile, it's a rocket.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

I don't see a problem with factions like the Kittani being able to produce reflex-tier missiles, why should Robotech by better?
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Nightmask »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Are there any examples where "guided" is used and it's explicitly not "self-guided". I always figured guided was short for self-guided since wherever I can remember it being defined they usually specify it meant 'self'.

Though obviously never JUST self since the pilot does the initial designation and designating an end location is a necessary part of guidance even if you then have the guide do most of the guiding to map the route and course corrections to that location.

to the best of my knowledge "guided" has always been the +3 to strike guided missiles, or the +5 to his smart bombs/reflex missiles (in robotech/Macross) its part of the reason I reject the "claim" that most missiles are "unguided" in RUE, unless they are talking about the huge numbers of mini-missiles now in use.

All rifts missiles should be guided but none should be Reflex smart.


kind of my point.
short range missiles, medium range and long range missiles should ALL default to the +3 to hit of guided missiles, with a few of the "best" missiles having an option to be "smart bombs" with the +5 to hit bonus.

I was thinking of something again the other day regarding the "multi warhead" missiles
if the multi warhead missiles effectively launch a salvo of 4 missiles (of the next category smaller) when they get "close" to the target, wouldn't that mean that effectively those "sub missiles" by definition cannot be dodged, because even a single multi-warhead would turn into a volley of 4 missiles as it closes into attack range.


Absolutely not. They should either be +3 or rockets NO smart. A smart bomb should just be a bomb with a +3 to strike.

If we want to get more specific then we should go with other guidance systems with different accuracies. But no missile dodges attacks. Not even in robotech. Reflex as just accuracies tracks her yield, no enhanced guidance and the standard missiles should have had accuracies tracks onus to dodge but only because they danced so should have been harder to hit. Which should be handled like auto-dodge from Ninjas & Superspies a roll at the beginning that counts toward all attacks. An unguided missile isn't all missile, it's a rocket.


Not all rockets are missiles but all missiles are rockets and not all missiles are guided.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Axelmania wrote:I don't see a problem with factions like the Kittani being able to produce reflex-tier missiles, why should Robotech by better?


Um... in yield, your absolutely right.
In concept of RT cannon, yup your right.
In 2nd edition RT, yup your right.
Where it originated from, 1st edition RT RPG, your wrong. According to 1ERT the Dodge is due to protocol ture and 1ERT was following close to the McKinney novels for the mythology. The protoculture was some kind of hive mind creature able to influence fate that the Regis and Haydon were after. That mind is what allowed all protoculture systems to operate better than anything else. So unless the Kittani can imbue all their missiles with the guidance of an ever present mind, no. No missile should have adopted the dodge.

If you think about it the only ones who should have dodging missiles like that would be the sploogs. After all by the description RTnology would be technomagic.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nightmask wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:to the best of my knowledge "guided" has always been the +3 to strike guided missiles, or the +5 to his smart bombs/reflex missiles (in robotech/Macross) its part of the reason I reject the "claim" that most missiles are "unguided" in RUE, unless they are talking about the huge numbers of mini-missiles now in use.

All rifts missiles should be guided but none should be Reflex smart.


kind of my point.
short range missiles, medium range and long range missiles should ALL default to the +3 to hit of guided missiles, with a few of the "best" missiles having an option to be "smart bombs" with the +5 to hit bonus.

I was thinking of something again the other day regarding the "multi warhead" missiles
if the multi warhead missiles effectively launch a salvo of 4 missiles (of the next category smaller) when they get "close" to the target, wouldn't that mean that effectively those "sub missiles" by definition cannot be dodged, because even a single multi-warhead would turn into a volley of 4 missiles as it closes into attack range.


Absolutely not. They should either be +3 or rockets NO smart. A smart bomb should just be a bomb with a +3 to strike.

If we want to get more specific then we should go with other guidance systems with different accuracies. But no missile dodges attacks. Not even in robotech. Reflex as just accuracies tracks her yield, no enhanced guidance and the standard missiles should have had accuracies tracks onus to dodge but only because they danced so should have been harder to hit. Which should be handled like auto-dodge from Ninjas & Superspies a roll at the beginning that counts toward all attacks. An unguided missile isn't all missile, it's a rocket.


Not all rockets are missiles but all missiles are rockets and not all missiles are guided.


NO.

Lets go to where it matters for this definition the military. After all we aren't using the old definition of a military missile which is any projectile including a sling bullet, an arrow or spear, heck even a thrown rock. And I'm not going to play any little game where we are going to mix definitions.
Even this page mixes definitions http://www.differencebetween.com/differ ... s-missile/ there is a difference between the mechanics and military terminology and classification. All missiles are projectiles intended to cause damage, all rockets that cause damage are missiles all missiles use rockets, crap like that is pointless and just serves to confuse.
Even here with engineers, http://www.crazyengineers.com/threads/d ... ile.60369/ WRONG. Are we playing a game where we are a bunch of engineers trying to develop horizontal or vertical traversal? NO
This one gives the best non military comparison http://www.differencebtw.com/difference ... d-missile/ states in a military sense missiles are guided rockets are not and that all missiles are rockets (by definition not military nomenclature which we use in the game) but not all rockets are missiles. Just like the buffalo sentence this uses different definitions for the same words. In other words, All guided weapon systems carrying explosive payloads, or other means of damaging the enemy, use a rocket engine but not all rocket engines are meant to cause damage.
Now for the military's definition, and the definition we look for playing a militaristic game:
http://www.wsmr.army.mil/PAO/wuaws/Page ... siles.aspx
and if this isn't enough AFI 16-401 guides designation of unmanned aerial vehicles to include drones, boosters, rockets and missiles. BTW it's on page 24.
http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/afi16-401(i).pdf

If y'all want I can get a friend of mine who was a 2M0X2 or one who is still in and a 2A3X3 NCOIC. I on the other hand was a 3D1X5 NCOIC back when they were 2E0X1s, that'd be when Elmendorf and Fort Richardson weren't quite merged yet and everybody was still getting used to Joint Base Elmendorf/Richardson being called J-Bear (JBER).
Now while I really know very little compared to them on missiles vs. rocket systems, wanna argue Radar with me?
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by guardiandashi »

I go with the relatively simple definition of missiles vs rockets.

missiles and rockets are based on the same basic principle...
IE a self propelled projectile system.
However a "rocket" is an unguided, and or area effect saturation unit. IE point and shoot, and it "mostly" goes in a straight line "until it hits something" and then it explodes.

a missile is a modified and enhanced "rocket" that has the capability to maneuver and change its course, if (typically) equipped with a guidance system it can use that guidance system to track, and/or home in on a target and attempt to strike it.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

guardiandashi wrote:I go with the relatively simple definition of missiles vs rockets.

missiles and rockets are based on the same basic principle...
IE a self propelled projectile system.
However a "rocket" is an unguided, and or area effect saturation unit. IE point and shoot, and it "mostly" goes in a straight line "until it hits something" and then it explodes.

a missile is a modified and enhanced "rocket" that has the capability to maneuver and change its course, if (typically) equipped with a guidance system it can use that guidance system to track, and/or home in on a target and attempt to strike it.


Artillery rockets don't travel in a straight line.

Another difference IRL most modern missiles aren't fired in volleys while rockets are.

Missiles are far more expensive than rockets due to guidance and flight control systems.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Hivemind could possibly just be 1 explanation for missiles that dodge, not the only missiles. Artificial intelligence makes as much sense as protoculture intelligence.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Axelmania wrote:Hivemind could possibly just be 1 explanation for missiles that dodge, not the only missiles. Artificial intelligence makes as much sense as protoculture intelligence.

AI would be far more expensive than, "well we just put this stuff in a chip and installed it and for some reason it works", instead they have to develop an AI that is cheap enough to go into a missile TWO sensor heads so it can see what it is dodging and be able to communicate with the other missiles in the swarm so that it can dance with them instead of dodging them. Instead of onboard AI they could always use source, coming from the launcher, or network, where it is broadcast across an entire region, but either of those methods would be open to jamming the entire thing and all missiles loosing "smart" guidance. AI just opens up tons more ways to negate the guidance. Including finding a fault in the coding "if you do "x" the AI can't compensate and looses tracking entirely trying to figure out what the heck just happened." A lot easier just to say it is because of some unknown reason that this stuff is able to do this and that reason isn't present in Rifts and if it was and people could prove it to the CS then they wouldn't use aliens. Well maybe they could pass it as we're destroying them in the most beneficial (to us) way possible.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Unguided, guided, smart...who cares? Just having the missile itself is where you get a kill from. Didn't someone project that shooting at an incoming missile comes with a penalty of like -12 or so? Good luck with that.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

They're harder now with speed penalties which didn't originally exist.

Part of the problem is we are never told an added cost for smart missiles.

Until dimension book 3 page 56 when we find out Naruni sells the upgrade for 15,000 credits.

Given their tech I imagine it is mor expensive from others with less expertise in robotics.

On the other hand this is a system so small even minis can be smart. Bulker systems should be cheaper. So maybe it evens out.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by The Beast »

Speed penalties did exist. They only applied to modern-day styled guns in Rifts (page 243 RMB).
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Ah, forgot about that, -3 for moving (why do they even list running/leaping? that's moving too...) and -6 for 40mph+ (not sure if that's another -3 for -6 total or cumulative to -9) still can't reach the huge amounts the per-50mph Ultimate system reaches.

Looking at that page, while the "Moving Targets" bold initially appears to be under a "Revolvers" header but in spite of that if we look at "Strike Bonus" below it, it mentions "modern weapons" and "Effective Range" above it mentions "guns" and "Reloading" mentions "older weapons" and "almost all modern weapons" so I'm thinking these are rules more broadly applying to the "Conventional Weapons" header...

Which happens to also include a list of ancient weapons, so I'd assume they would also suffer penalties to try and hit a fast object. IE you still would have been -6 to strike a missile if you threw your spear at it .. and one would assume this would apply to things like vibro spears too, although they didn't get introduced until later.

I remember some book out there saying how far you can throw stuff not designed for it like swords. There could be a situation where you might want to throw your sword to detonate a volley of 4 armor-piercing missiles if you lacked MD armor, for example, it could be worth sacrificing your vibro-sword to stay alive since you can't dodge it, and you might be out of ammo with ranged weapons.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

The idea of throwing something to detonate incoming missiles is God-Tier Hilarity.

But carry on. :lol:
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Zamion138 »

Does anyone ever apply the to strike negatives on the defenders for try intercept a missile? Its -1 every 50 mph after the first 20, so if you try to shoot an incomming AP mini-missile pretty much only a nat 20 is going to work seeing as it goes 1400 mph....

I dont do this in game by the way but I could see it being used.

I do a minus 5 usually .
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

I don't give penalties to other guided missiles when they attack other missiles. Though i do require them to beat the other missile's strike roll to land a successful hit.

Shooting with iron sights...yeah, you need a N20 for that. Other targeting systems can lower the penalty, even though it's implied by their bonuses, but it's a wonky situation that doesn't agree with most other rules.

For instance, I doubt KS would apply the penalty in one of his own games, he'd likely only apply it to shooting at an aircraft flying overhead, something like that.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by eliakon »

Alrik Vas wrote:I don't give penalties to other guided missiles when they attack other missiles. Though i do require them to beat the other missile's strike roll to land a successful hit.

Shooting with iron sights...yeah, you need a N20 for that. Other targeting systems can lower the penalty, even though it's implied by their bonuses, but it's a wonky situation that doesn't agree with most other rules.

For instance, I doubt KS would apply the penalty in one of his own games, he'd likely only apply it to shooting at an aircraft flying overhead, something like that.

I apply speed penalties unevenly...
On the theory that if a missile is flying straight at you at 1,400 MPH then for targeting purposes it is practically standing still... since it is not changing its profile to you. Your buddy might have a slight change and the guy in the airplane two miles back a mile west and 6000' up is going to be seeing a streak.
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Re: Did guided/smart bonuses get reduced somewhere?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Beating a strike roll is only done for dodging missiles, I don't see anything stating that you would need to beat the strike roll to strike a missile. So I think it would be the standard 8+ to strike if you're firing a ranged weapon (including shooting unguided missiles) or 5+ if you're targetting it from melee range as guided/smart missiles do or if you're say, using a pike or lance to stab it, which at 10+ feet is long enough that it could detonate a low-radius missile (like mini AP) while leaving you out of the blast radius.

I'm not sure where thrown weapons or bows/crossbows fit on the 5/8 rules since they are ranged but ancient.

I do like eliakon's idea though. A straight speed penalty should apply if you're firing at something traveling that speed at a 90 degree angle relative to you, but any other angle and that change in angle will reduce and should be easier to lead and time. I just wish I knew the physics for it so we could plug in some kind of formula for calculating it.
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