Creature of Magic or Supernatural Creature

[SpiritInterface]

Has anyone come up with a clear definition between Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Creatures? Are all Supernatural Creatures evil?

[The Beast]

Has anyone come up with a clear definition between Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Creatures? Are all Supernatural Creatures evil?

Mysteries of Magic has clear definitions between the two. No, not all SNCs are evil.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Prysus]

Has anyone come up with a clear definition between Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Creatures? Are all Supernatural Creatures evil?

Greetings and Salutations. RUE, page 276 and 277 give definitions. Long story short, Creatures of Magic are considered mortal with finite life spans that can be born into our world while Supernatural Beings are considered immortal from another reality. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Axelmania]

One hole I see in that newly-introduced Ultimate dichotomy is that Faerie folk have long been staple creatures of magic and faeries/pixies/sprites/nymphs/will-o-the-wisps/bogies are all described as effectively immortal.

[eliakon]

One hole I see in that newly-introduced Ultimate dichotomy is that Faerie folk have long been staple creatures of magic and faeries/pixies/sprites/nymphs/will-o-the-wisps/bogies are all described as effectively immortal.

A few exceptions do not disprove the rule.
Farerie Folk for instance... are as you point out defined as creatures of magic. Ergo they are creatures of magic. Even if they live longer than the usual CoM does.
The reverse is also true. Godlings have a lifespan, grow old and die. but they are supernatural creatures.

That is why short story rules of thumb general definitions are not considered the same as iron clad rigid scientific classification categories.

[Nekira Sudacne]

also effectively immortal does not mean truely immortal. a faries lifespan could mesure in the billions of years while still being finite. just because no farie has died of old age YET dosn't mean they won't eventually, it's just no one is sure how long it is because it hasn't happened yet.

[SpiritInterface]

Thank you everyone for helping me find the information I was looking for.

[Axelmania]

Good point Nekira. Eliakon: the issue is that Prysus spoke of it more like an absolute rule not rule of thumb (is non rule trend)

Seljuk are another problem. Phase World page 70 says their avragr lifespan is 150 years and 149 says the race became suoernaturK creatures.

Again playing with words, average could he due to violent lifestyle so maybe they can't die of old age but it is sort if the impression you're left with.

[Mlp7029]

Has anyone come up with a clear definition between Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Creatures? Are all Supernatural Creatures evil?

Greetings and Salutations. RUE, page 276 and 277 give definitions. Long story short, Creatures of Magic are considered mortal with finite life spans that can be born into our world while Supernatural Beings are considered immortal from another reality. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Atlantis also says Undead Slayers are considered Supernatural beings.

[Axelmania]

I believe South America also said the same of the those other Atlanteans with the monster-shaping tattoos. Yet I think both can still die of old age as is normal for all Atlanteans. So much for all supernatural beings being immortal =/ Seljuk probably would have been explicitly described as immortal instead of being given an average lifespan if that were so.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I believe South America also said the same of the those other Atlanteans with the monster-shaping tattoos. Yet I think both can still die of old age as is normal for all Atlanteans. So much for all supernatural beings being immortal =/ Seljuk probably would have been explicitly described as immortal instead of being given an average lifespan if that were so.

yes and no. Do not forget, Palladium is an Exceptions based Rule system. The game creates a baseline of rules, and then creates certain things that are exceptions to said rules. the existance of exceptions does not negate the general rule. Things do not have SN PS, unless the game says they do. even if it gives no reason to explain how or why they do. and many begins have it. The basic rule hasn't changed though.

Same here. All supernatural beings are immortal. Unless their writeup says they are not. even if there are a LOT of exceptions to the rule, it does not negate the rule that all supernatural beings are assumed immortal until proven otherwise.

[Axelmania]

In that case we will find few exceptions because most races list average lifespans not maximum lifespans. Ergo the Seljuk can go millennia without dying of old age and their short lifespan is due to dying in battle or opting to ritually eat the elderly on their 200th birthdays or Hurling Day or something.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would advise against thinking about it too closely

[cornholioprime]

Has anyone come up with a clear definition between Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Creatures? Are all Supernatural Creatures evil?

With rare exceptions, a Creature of Magic is a creature that has magical energies infused into its being, but which otherwise conforms to natural biological functions (eating and/or breathing and/or natural procreation, etc.).

In most cases, Creatures of Magic grow up, grow old, and die just like their "muggle" counterparts. In general, if it's "born that way," it's a Creature of Magic.

Supernatural Creatures, on the other hand, don't usually have the biological needs of Creatures of Magic, and in most if not all cases, they can't reproduce their numbers by natural means even if they wanted to. Most Supernatural Creatures can't, for example, starve to death no matter how "hungry" they get. With rare exceptions, they are also immortal unless destroyed, and don't age, not even from adult to old age, and not even from youngling to adult. In general, if the only way for the creature in question to reproduce is to be created via some sort of ritual or magical process, it's a Supernatural Creature.


Over the years, SOME writers for Palladium have mixed up the terms (in my opinion, C.J. Carella is perhaps the most grievous 'offender' in this regard), but by and large the basic definition holds.


EXAMPLES OF CREATURES OF MAGIC:

Dragons
Unicorns
Faerie Folk (despite their infinite life spans)
Battle Magi
Anti-Monsters
Sea Titans
Amazons
Atlantean Undead Slayers
Naga-Spawn


EXAMPLES OF SUPERNATURAL CREATURES:

Alien Intelligences
Palladium Vampires
The Undead
Animated Dead
Naga (despite the fact that they can have children sexually) [From Rifts: China 1: The Yama Kings]
Demons
Angels
Shadow Beasts
Ectoplasmic Entities ("Ghosts")
Murder-Wraiths

SHOULD BE CALLED CREATURES OF MAGIC BUT ARE CLASSIFIED AS SUPERNATURAL CREATURES:

Palladium Gods

UNKNOWN DESIGNATION (STRADDLES THE LINE BETWEEN BOTH):

Millennium Trees
The Red Child (From Rifts: China 1: The Yama Kings)

[The Beast]

Has anyone come up with a clear definition between Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Creatures? Are all Supernatural Creatures evil?

With rare exceptions, a Creature of Magic is a creature that has magical energies infused into its being, but which otherwise conforms to natural biological functions (eating and/or breathing and/or natural procreation, etc.).

In most cases, Creatures of Magic grow up, grow old, and die just like their "muggle" counterparts. In general, if it's "born that way," it's a Creature of Magic.

Supernatural Creatures, on the other hand, don't usually have the biological needs of Creatures of Magic, and in most if not all cases, they can't reproduce their numbers by natural means even if they wanted to. Most Supernatural Creatures can't, for example, starve to death no matter how "hungry" they get. With rare exceptions, they are also immortal unless destroyed, and don't age, not even from adult to old age, and not even from youngling to adult. In general, if the only way for the creature in question to reproduce is to be created via some sort of ritual or magical process, it's a Supernatural Creature.


Over the years, SOME writers for Palladium have mixed up the terms (in my opinion, C.J. Carella is perhaps the most grievous 'offender' in this regard), but by and large the basic definition holds.


EXAMPLES OF CREATURES OF MAGIC:

Dragons
Unicorns
Faerie Folk (despite their infinite life spans)
Battle Magi
Anti-Monsters
Sea Titans
Amazons
Atlantean Undead Slayers
Naga-Spawn


EXAMPLES OF SUPERNATURAL CREATURES:

Alien Intelligences
Palladium Vampires
The Undead
Animated Dead
Naga (despite the fact that they can have children sexually) [From Rifts: China 1: The Yama Kings]
Demons
Angels
Shadow Beasts
Ectoplasmic Entities ("Ghosts")
Murder-Wraiths

SHOULD BE CALLED CREATURES OF MAGIC BUT ARE CLASSIFIED AS SUPERNATURAL CREATURES:

Palladium Gods

UNKNOWN DESIGNATION (STRADDLES THE LINE BETWEEN BOTH):

Millennium Trees
The Red Child (From Rifts: China 1: The Yama Kings)

IMO, alien/supernatural intelligences, gods, godlings, and the demon/deevil lords should be a category unto themselves.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Axelmania]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Gurgoyles/Gargoyles supernatural creatures (albeit sub-demons) ? They and reproduce normally (birdlike w/ eggs) and I think probably have some kind of maximum lifespan, although it's probably worded 'average'...

What's the point of having rules for a label that only apply some of the time?

It seems there's no clear-cut rules for Supernaturals at all except that things which make statements about supernatural creatures apply to them (like permanence wards not working)

[The Beast]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Gurgoyles/Gargoyles supernatural creatures (albeit sub-demons) ? They and reproduce normally (birdlike w/ eggs) and I think probably have some kind of maximum lifespan, although it's probably worded 'average'...

What's the point of having rules for a label that only apply some of the time?

It seems there's no clear-cut rules for Supernaturals at all except that things which make statements about supernatural creatures apply to them (like permanence wards not working)

The rule is a somewhat recent creation (at least as far as what customers see). Most (if not all) of the creatures mentioned in this thread thus far were published in a book before the rule was. In the cases of fairies and gargoyles, they were some of Palladium Book's first creatures.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[glitterboy2098]

technically the classifications have existed since the first books of the game. they just were not properly defined until RUE.

[cornholioprime]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Gurgoyles/Gargoyles supernatural creatures (albeit sub-demons) ? They and reproduce normally (birdlike w/ eggs) and I think probably have some kind of maximum lifespan, although it's probably worded 'average'...

What's the point of having rules for a label that only apply some of the time?

It seems there's no clear-cut rules for Supernaturals at all except that things which make statements about supernatural creatures apply to them (like permanence wards not working)

The writers of Palladium aren't omniscient.

There are always mistakes and exceptions to the rules, here and there.
Some exceptions, are valid and legal, and some exceptions, are simple mistakes.

By the way, Gargoyles are "just" creatures of flesh and blood, except for the Gargoyle Lords, that are Creatures of Magic that have the power to turn themselves into stone. I think, but can't remember, that there is also a type called the Gargoyle Mage.
I don't remember which book makes the distinctions, but it is in one of them somewhere.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Gargoyle Mages are not Creatures of Magic, they are basically intuitive Earth Warlocks.

[Axelmania]

Dimension Book 10 came out in 2007, 2 years after RUE's redefinition (277 under 'Demons, Gods and Supernatural Beings' saying "All supernatural beings .. are inhuman and immortal") yet on page 32 "Gargoyles and their kin .. They are Sub-Demons, supernatural beings with .. "

Page 35 mentions for the basic Gargoyle: "Average Life Span: 300-500 years, but some have been known to live as long as one thousand." We see the same on 36 for the Gurgoyles (Wingless Gargoyles)

Since it uses 'average' we could theorize that Gargoyles are immortal but their violent cannon-fodder lifestyle just has resulted in none living past a millenium.

Given the omnipresence of the limitless "average" statement, I guess it will be hard to dig up a contradiction there in terms of the lifespan department.

Given what it says in Ultimate, "their native dimension or some similar supernatural realm" is a vague but flexible 2 options. I have no idea how to interpret "some similar" though. Dyval seems similar enough to Hades but I get the impression those killed there respawn in Hades later.

Ultimate 277's statement about forming bodies is pretty confusing to me though:

To be at their most powerful, they must take physical form. This is easy for lesser and greater demons, Dyvalians and other similar supernatural beings, forming their bodies from ectoplasm and insects, vermin, dead bodies or a living human host

Is this ever followed up on anywhere? I got the impression that lesser/greater demons/Dyvalians just stepped through rifts (random or by Shifter) bringing their natural bodies rather than building new ones.

This is the first and last I've ever seen of "ectoplasm and insects" basically...

Gargoyle Mages are not Creatures of Magic, they are basically intuitive Earth Warlocks.

I thought maybe at some point the Lords/Mages got called CoM but couldn't find it in CB/NGR so maybe I just imagined it.

Interestingly, Hades page 73 describes the Jinn as "Creatures of Magic" even though they are Greater Demons, and I figure all Lesser/Greater Demons qualify as Supernatural Beings (ie 31 "As supernatural beings, the demons' physiology adjust" 94 "demons are primordial supernatural creatures of instinct" 116 "supernatural beings like Ghouls")

[glitterboy2098]

it's been a part of the palladium settings since the original beyond the supernatural was written. it's called discorporation. the bodies of supernatural beings (and most creatures of magic) vanish shortly after death, becoming mundane things like dirt, bugs, leaves, ooze, etc, or dissolving into ectoplasm and vanishing entirely.

it was not heavily emphasized in rifts however prior to RUE. RUE was printed in august of 2055. the 2nd edition of Beyond the supernatural in January of the same year. 2nd ed BTS was where much of the revised classifications originated, and with discorporation being a big part of BTS, they evidently decided to add more emphasis to it in RUE. since BTS is a rifts prequel of sorts (even if it's exact status is hazy) this isn't too surprising.

supernatural beings are basically creating bodies out of the raw stuff of the dimension in order to keep their real bodies safely back in their home dimensions.. creatures of magic just tend to need their magic energy to keep their bodies from falling apart, so closely are they tied to it biologically. there was even a rifter article that tried to explain how that works, though it is not official material so it's explanation is debatable.

[Axelmania]

I guess the question is... if the sub-demons/lesser demons/greater demons aren't actually coming to earth, and just making copies of their body based on EandI, what happens to their bodies in their home dimension? Are there big shelters full of sleeping demons in comas as their soul operates the faux-body on Rifts Earth?

It doesn't seem like they'd have time to prepare for that, since Shifters could summon them forcibly even when they're not in a safe location.

Plus, if their original bodies were intact then that whole thing about needing to be regrown from an egg wouldn't exist...

So all I can figure is, when they are summoned, their original body is destroyed and a new one is formed from EandI and then there's 2 outcomes:
1) they are sent back without being killed, and their original body is reconstituted
2) they are sent back by their death, and their original body is not reconstituted

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually, Regarding Gargoyles, that's one mystery we got an offical answer here on the Forums. I don't remember exactly how far back on the Forums it goes (I asked shortly after Hades came out, a few years ago, so it's pretty far back on the forums by now), but I asked Carl Gebla and he admited he just plain forgot about Gargoyles laying eggs when he wrote Hades. he says that if they lay eggs and breed, they don't respawn in hell like other demons and have physical bodies that can be killed. No word on if the next publication of Hades will correct the error though I am hopeful sinse it was brought to palladium's attention.

[Axelmania]

I don't like that mutually exclusive thing. Nothing that unbalancing about sub-demons being able to both breed and respawn. They probably get killed off enough in their home dimensions for it not to be a thing.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't like that mutually exclusive thing. Nothing that unbalancing about sub-demons being able to both breed and respawn. They probably get killed off enough in their home dimensions for it not to be a thing.

Or the fact it is mutually exclusive might indicate hell is a pretty safe place to live, at least for natives....

[The Beast]

I don't like that mutually exclusive thing. Nothing that unbalancing about sub-demons being able to both breed and respawn. They probably get killed off enough in their home dimensions for it not to be a thing.

I don't see it as an issue either. They are sub-demons after all.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[glitterboy2098]

i think it makes sense.. the hades book establishs that the resurrection aspect is due to the particular pacts and magics involved in that dimension and its social classes. effectively, they ressurect because that realm has been engineered to enable them to do so.

the Gargoyles we have details on reproduction for are the ones in europe.. whichwe have been told since WB5 are a dissident group that have actively worked to stay separate from Hades in order to go their own way and build an empire of their own with gargoyles in charge.
this means they would have actively seperated themselves from hades and it's ressurection magics.. since the ressurection comes bundled with requirements to obey and a rather poor social status in hades.

they basically gave up relative immortality for personal freedom.

[Axelmania]

I don't like that mutually exclusive thing. Nothing that unbalancing about sub-demons being able to both breed and respawn. They probably get killed off enough in their home dimensions for it not to be a thing.

Or the fact it is mutually exclusive might indicate hell is a pretty safe place to live, at least for natives....

That or they replenish lost lesser or sub by the deific power and transforming lesser slaves. Doesn't explain greater replenish though except archfiend.