Are Zombies supernatural evil, or just supernatural?

[SpiritInterface]

One of the players in my group has put forth the thought that because zombies aren't intelligent or self aware that they can't be evil. That zombies and animated dead are just supernatural creatures.

[say652]

Great way to screw over a Sea Inquisitor.
And yes i can see them being Supernatural and since Evil requires intelligence to choose action they infact are not Supernatural Evil.

[drewkitty ~..~]

it depends on the origin of the zombies.

examples
DR Z's SN evil
Resedent evil Z's, mundanes not SN nor magic
made by the magic spell.. magic object.

[say652]

I say it comes to the ability to choose, is a shark evil when it attacks a human?

[eliakon]

There is no need to have free will to be supernatural evil. Since evil can be an actually detected and quantified substance there has to be something for that to be detecting...
...thus given the metaphysical assumptions of the system I see no reason for things to be inherently evil because they are evil.

[say652]

Evil is merely timing of the action.

[Axelmania]

In cases where alignment is stated, if it's simply miscreant/aberrant/evil then yes, but if it's "considered" then that could mean they aren't really evil and just considered by an unspecified party to have that alignment.

Like how humans think zombies/xiticix are evil based on preying on humans when really they are not malevolent and just following instincts to feed.

[say652]

Exactly, unintelligent beings that attack or eat humans could be considered Anarchist at best.

[Axelmania]

So far my digging to find an unprincipled man-eater to contradict you has proven unfruitful

Blow Worms would be a good comparison for classic zombies. They're "lethargic, moving as little as possible and then only to hunt for food" seems to fit.

Then again, if starved they'll eat ANY living creatures they encounter so "considered anarchist" is pretty flexible.

[Nekira Sudacne]

One of the players in my group has put forth the thought that because zombies aren't intelligent or self aware that they can't be evil. That zombies and animated dead are just supernatural creatures.

Have your players read the Create Zombie spell? Zombies in palladium ARE intelligent. an IQ of 7 isn't great, but it explictly says they can think for themselves, learn simple tasks and drive cars and use complex tools. They can even speak and read to communicate and have emotions of their own, and things that ward off unthinking animate dead don't work on them because they are truely (un)living creatures in their own right. They are created as magically obediant slaves to their creators, not mindless killing machines.

I think you are confusing Zombies (A specific kind of intelligent undead) with Animate Dead (What most people would call a zombie, Unthinking automations made from human corpses with magic)

Zombies can have alignments. In fact reading the create zombie spell, there isn't even any restrictions as to what alignment that is. they could be any alignment. They don't even have to eat brains, nor do they have any stated compulsion to do so, so with no need to hurt others at all they could even be good aligned zombies who are kind and helpful, if a bit dim.

Animate Dead mindlessly attack others and have no alignments at all.

Dead Reign zombies are a different beast altogeather from either, but this is the Rifts forum so I didn't think they were involved.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Have your players read the Create Zombie spell? ….{quoting NS's post as a whole but edited for space}

Which is why said "it depends on the origin of the zombies." to start off with.
The question in the OP is too broad to answer any other way.

[Nekira Sudacne]

One of the players in my group has put forth the thought that because zombies aren't intelligent or self aware that they can't be evil. That zombies and animated dead are just supernatural creatures.

Have your players read the Create Zombie spell? ….

Which is why said "it depends on the origin of the zombies." to start off with.
The question in the OP is too broad to answer any other way.

Preeety sure I was quoting SpiritInterface there and not you.

I disagree that it was too broad to answer any other way, as I think i gave a pretty comprehensive answer of the question actually asked. It felt more helpful to me. I saw that you had asked for clarification on which kind of zombie, I just felt it more efficent to actually answer the given one and let him clarify later if he was unsatisfied.

[glitterboy2098]

One of the players in my group has put forth the thought that because zombies aren't intelligent or self aware that they can't be evil. That zombies and animated dead are just supernatural creatures.

Have your players read the Create Zombie spell? Zombies in palladium ARE intelligent. an IQ of 7 isn't great, but it explictly says they can think for themselves, learn simple tasks and drive cars and use complex tools. They can even speak and read to communicate and have emotions of their own, and things that ward off unthinking animate dead don't work on them because they are truely (un)living creatures in their own right. They are created as magically obediant slaves to their creators, not mindless killing machines.

I think you are confusing Zombies (A specific kind of intelligent undead) with Animate Dead (What most people would call a zombie, Unthinking automations made from human corpses with magic)

Zombies can have alignments. In fact reading the create zombie spell, there isn't even any restrictions as to what alignment that is. they could be any alignment. They don't even have to eat brains, nor do they have any stated compulsion to do so, so with no need to hurt others at all they could even be good aligned zombies who are kind and helpful, if a bit dim.

Animate Dead mindlessly attack others and have no alignments at all.

Dead Reign zombies are a different beast altogeather from either, but this is the Rifts forum so I didn't think they were involved.

the ones created by the spell are more like the folkloric zombies of Haiti which were basically docile slaves that happened to have been people killed and resurrected by a Bokor (a type of witch) as part of the zombie creation ritual. it was an evil form of voodoo/vodou/vodun (spelling varies), and like most of that folklore, derived from various west african traditions mingled and mixed by the slave society of the island (and possibly with elements from the native american peoples that had served as slaves prior to the importation of africans in that role) they were basically supposed to be the same person as before their death, only with little free will or initiative of their own.

[Axelmania]

It never seemed evil to me. Seemed like a logical use of a dead body.

[eliakon]

It never seemed evil to me. Seemed like a logical use of a dead body.

Since the system says that the animating force is inherently evil that would probably come under the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" trope
This could of course simply be because the Palladium Universe has an Objective Morality which means that some things are evil because they are evil.

[Axelmania]

Is every single zombie made with the Create Zombie ritual evil, or could this necessarily apply to only one universe's version of the spell? I'm trying to remember when 'evil' is actually specified, I figure maybe that HU version which had supernatural strength... maybe it's whatever gives it that strength which makes it evil and the other kinds from Rifts/PF/Nightbane who lack supernatural strength aren't evil?

[SpiritInterface]

It never seemed evil to me. Seemed like a logical use of a dead body.

Since the system says that the animating force is inherently evil that would probably come under the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" trope
This could of course simply be because the Palladium Universe has an Objective Morality which means that some things are evil because they are evil.

Is every single zombie made with the Create Zombie ritual evil, or could this necessarily apply to only one universe's version of the spell? I'm trying to remember when 'evil' is actually specified, I figure maybe that HU version which had supernatural strength... maybe it's whatever gives it that strength which makes it evil and the other kinds from Rifts/PF/Nightbane who lack supernatural strength aren't evil?

Are magically created zombies animated by something other than magic? If so is it by its very nature evil?

My understanding is that magic is by its very nature neutral.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Is every single zombie made with the Create Zombie ritual evil, or could this necessarily apply to only one universe's version of the spell? I'm trying to remember when 'evil' is actually specified, I figure maybe that HU version which had supernatural strength... maybe it's whatever gives it that strength which makes it evil and the other kinds from Rifts/PF/Nightbane who lack supernatural strength aren't evil?

I don't think any Create Zombie says they are evil.

[Axelmania]

I'm not thinking of an actual spell but the statted zombies that some mage had, I think in Century Station or something, I'll check on it later.

[eliakon]

It never seemed evil to me. Seemed like a logical use of a dead body.

Since the system says that the animating force is inherently evil that would probably come under the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" trope
This could of course simply be because the Palladium Universe has an Objective Morality which means that some things are evil because they are evil.

Is every single zombie made with the Create Zombie ritual evil, or could this necessarily apply to only one universe's version of the spell? I'm trying to remember when 'evil' is actually specified, I figure maybe that HU version which had supernatural strength... maybe it's whatever gives it that strength which makes it evil and the other kinds from Rifts/PF/Nightbane who lack supernatural strength aren't evil?

Are magically created zombies animated by something other than magic? If so is it by its very nature evil?

My understanding is that magic is by its very nature neutral.

My bad here. I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that the CoP: Evil kept out zombies.
Totally my mistake.
It appears that Zombies have as far as I can tell no alignment.
They are however supernatural since they are undead and undead Dark Conversions clearly defines undead as supernatural.

[Axelmania]

Do you think that'd apply to animated dead / mummies as well?

[eliakon]

Do you think that'd apply to animated dead / mummies as well?

Mummies are explicitly said to be Undead so yes.
I am less clear on if animated dead are counted as undead or not.

[Killer Cyborg]

Do you think that'd apply to animated dead / mummies as well?

Mummies are explicitly said to be Undead so yes.
I am less clear on if animated dead are counted as undead or not.

Animated Dead are not undead.
They're basically corpses that are used as magical puppets by the spell.

It's mentioned in either the Animate Dead spell description, or under Turn Dead.

[Axelmania]

Stuff I was remembering earlier re zombie alignment.

March 1997 Nightbane World Book 3 Through the Glass Darkly page 59 under Create Zombie

"Effectively has no M.A., M.E. or alignment"

February 2000 Heroes Unlimited Sourcebook Century Station page 173 under Macoute Zombie

"Alignment: While considered the "tools" of evil, they have no mind or emotions of their own"

In the latter case they do have ME/MA. Neither version is the standard sell you see in Rifts or PF though. Level 12 wizard spell in Palladium Fantasy leaves out ME/MA and strength isn't said to be supernatural but otherwise attributes look the same.

Consistency would be cool. In PF page 191 says Turn Dead works on mummies and page 211 says it doesn't, for example.

Maybe if I knew what page in conversions specified all undead to be supernatural I could look nearby to see if animated dead are kentioned too.

[ShadowLogan]

Consistency would be cool. In PF page 191 says Turn Dead works on mummies and page 211 says it doesn't, for example.

Actually not quite. Turn Dead, IMHO, suggests there are different types of mummies.

The Create Mummy Ritual (pg210-1) would not seem to fit the definition of mummy used in the Turn Dead Spell (pg191) as it is stated: "This magic only affects skeletons, mummies, and corpses that are magically animated like marionettes;". CMR doesn't create a marionette like Animate & Control Dead (pg200), but a robot like a Zombie (pg212-3) or Golem (pg213-4) and Zombies are not effected by TD.

[Axelmania]

Huh... I guess the Animate Dead spell could be used to animate a skeleton, a preserved mummy or a rotting corpse... good point. I instinctively only applied "that are magically animated" description to "corpses" when it probably does apply to skeleton/mummies too.

That said... where do we draw the line on marionettes? Intelligence? Doesn't the Animate Dead spell also give a (albeit lower) intelligence? It's not literally "I pull the string, the puppet moves" after all. These beings all have their own melee attacks which work independently of the caster, the caster just needs to command them to do a task like "kill the wolf" and it will go to it, not needing oversight for every single swing of the fist.

Perhaps the 'like marionettes' should be ignored and focus on the 'animated' part... which does seem to mimic the 'animate dead' vocabulary. Although I think we could argue that mummies/zombies/golems are also "animated" in the sense that they move around and are brought to that mobile state through magic.

CTAMALM could still be corpse-exclusive but it does make me wonder which mummies are meant by it.

I do remember there was a 'creature of magic' mummy in the classic PRPG bestiary. I think they were there along with Scarecrows, although in the Conversion Book the Scarecrow got called Supernatural but I don't recall Creature of Magic being used anymore...

[Blue_Lion]

As I understand it syper natural evil is superbatural and evil by nature. So choice does not matter a good demon is still classified as supernatural evil. A super natural could be mindless and be a super natural evil.

So what it comes down to is not if the zombie is evil but if zombies thenself are inhearntly evil.

[eliakon]

As I understand it syper natural evil is superbatural and evil by nature. So choice does not matter a good demon is still classified as supernatural evil. A super natural could be mindless and be a super natural evil.

So what it comes down to is not if the zombie is evil but if zombies thenself are inhearntly evil.

If a demon changed alignment to non-evil then it would no longer be a supernatural evil...
...there just are very few good demons. Very few.

[drewkitty ~..~]

it depends on the origin of the zombies.

examples
DR Z's SN evil
Resedent evil Z's, mundanes not SN nor magic
made by the magic spell.. magic object.

I forgot one type…

People that have been drugged into non-thinking to the point that they lose themselves & follow whatever orders are given. in other words: real world zombies.

[rc_brooks]

For unintelligent undead, I would rule they have the alignment of the will that drives them. Depending on the ethos of your game, you could also say that reanimating the dead is evil in and of itself. So even if it was a good character doing so, the resulting undead is tainted regardless (which is typical of most fantasy environments).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Maybe they're just really hungry Vegans.....