Called shots with grenades

[Axelmania]

Been exploring some less controversial explosive avenues lately. Noticed WB34(NG2)p68 the NG-X144 "Thumper" for the Blue Boy power armor mentions "+1 to strike with a grenade on an Aimed/Called Shot when only one is fired".

Does anyone recall any other grenade launchers which can explicitly make called shots? I'm not sure if I should assume all of them can or if it might be a special feature.

Grenades never struck me as particularly accurate weapons, so I'm wondering if maybe only special launchers can aim well enough to call while simply chucking them would only be able to hit the main body since it's via an Ancient WP throwing skill rather than a Modern WP gun skill.

[The Beast]

Been exploring some less controversial explosive avenues lately. Noticed WB34(NG2)p68 the NG-X144 "Thumper" for the Blue Boy power armor mentions "+1 to strike with a grenade on an Aimed/Called Shot when only one is fired".

Does anyone recall any other grenade launchers which can explicitly make called shots? I'm not sure if I should assume all of them can or if it might be a special feature.

Grenades never struck me as particularly accurate weapons, so I'm wondering if maybe only special launchers can aim well enough to call while simply chucking them would only be able to hit the main body since it's via an Ancient WP throwing skill rather than a Modern WP gun skill.

Having been assigned the M203 at my first duty station I can tell you that they're very accurate when placed in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing with it. I remember the last time I got to fire one pretty well. Me and another SPC in my platoon were picked at the last minute to go to the range that day because the company had to have so many soldiers qualified on it, and my platoon was right in the middle of ramping up for a major exercise. Our platoon sergeant asked us if anyone had been assigned it before, picked the two of us, and told us to just get out there and qualify ASAP. We were both in some sort of zone that day, because every shot he would make, I'd end up making as well. I think the only one I didn't make like that was one on a simulated building. He got his shot square in the window and mine clipped the side of it. This is just two signal soldiers mind you. We only went to ranges twice a year. I'm fairly certain the combat arms soldiers go to it more than that, so to them I doubt the two of us looked as impressive as I feel we were.

[dragonfett]

The Bandit 6000 Grenade Launcher (Bandito Arms) can take a Laser Targeting and Telescopic scope. The Laser Targeting scope adds a +3 to an Aimed Shot.

Deadball Grenades can be used to bounce around doing tricks which require called shots (those who do not have the skill Deadball would take a -4 on such actions)

The CP-50 Dragonfire (CS) grants a +1 on an aimed shot, as does the CTT-M20 Missile Rifle (CS), and K-1 Sniper Rifle and Launcher (Kittani) are all I could find in the GMG.

[Blue_Lion]

You have to look at the weapon in question. Launched grenades are just large bullets with no rule stopping them from making called shots they can(missiles are the only range weapon that have a restriction to where they can hit). There are times when you use a grenade launcher you need to make a called shot like shooting a grenade through the widow of a car or direct hit on some one behind cover. Also remember most launched grenades explode on impact unlike hand grenades that have a timer.

Do you really think the use would use a inaccurate AOE weapon at a range of 400m, because that is the max effective range of a M203?

[Alrik Vas]

Against old tanks there are even hand grenades that can penetrate the armor if you get the right throw.

If you're spending the extra action for the called shot, you should absolutely get the benefit of it.

[Blue_Lion]

Against old tanks there are even hand grenades that can penetrate the armor if you get the right throw.

If you're spending the extra action for the called shot, you should absolutely get the benefit of it.

Heck if some one left the hatch open that requires a called shot to lob a grenade open.

[glitterboy2098]

any non-missile weapon capable of single shots can make a called shot.

[Axelmania]

Launched grenades are just large bullets with no rule stopping them from making called shots they can(missiles are the only range weapon that have a restriction to where they can hit).

True, I know of no self-aiming grenades so a grenade lacking a WP skill to make called shots probably wouldn't be an issue.

[Blue_Lion]

Launched grenades are just large bullets with no rule stopping them from making called shots they can(missiles are the only range weapon that have a restriction to where they can hit).

True, I know of no self-aiming grenades so a grenade lacking a WP skill to make called shots probably wouldn't be an issue.

(Most missiles are now not self aiming they are unguided, just they use separate rules that block hitting any where but the main body. It is how the rules are written.)

[Axelmania]

The verb is 'strike', not 'hit'.

The CP-50 Dragonfire (CS) grants a +1 on an aimed shot, as does the CTT-M20 Missile Rifle (CS)

I believe the CTT-M20's strike bonus only applies to its laser since it is usually loaded with guided mini-missiles which have their own unique strike rolls and bonuses, unlike unguided mini-missiles which can use the WP skill.

"Remember, mini-missiles are self-guided, so once launched they will find their target".

RUE 364's "Unless indicated otherwise in a specific weapon, robot, vehicle or launcher description, mini-missiles nad most types of missiles are NOT guided" would not apply in the case of the CTT-M20 since its description explicitly mentions guided mini-missiles being used for it.

This would create problems for the CS using called shots with it because guided mini-missiles are the norm and those missiles don't have a WP skill to make called shots with.

I guess it would be possible to custom-order some dumb missiles but the CS probably would only trust that to elite troops with high WP skill that gives them equal or better strike bonuses to avoid wasting ammunition on shots which miss or will be dodged. There's not much value in the capability of making called shots if you're just going to miss them.

Another reason might be that they want the Missile Rifle to be usable by troops who may not necessarily have the WP Heavy MD skill, although that might not be likely since I think it could fall under the "-5 to strike when shooting a machine gun or other heavy weapon" since the CTT-M20 appears to be a heavy weapon.

The CR-1 Rocket Launcher (RUE 258) might not though, it's merely 14 pounds after all, I wouldn't apply that -5 to people without a WP. Given that it doesn't indicate any use of guided missiles I would now assume that unguided are the standard ammunition.

It's be nice to be given different prices... I'm inclined to think that there should be some kind of extra price for guided missiles since you would need additional maneuvering jets, software, hardware, etc. compared to a dumb missile.

Getting back to grenades, I think dragonfett is right about the CP-50's +1 to strike probably benefitting called shots too even if it doesn't explicitly mention called.

[glitterboy2098]

Note that an aimed shot is not a called shot. As per rue, an aimed shot is still mainbody only, your just taking longer to aim thus improving accuracy.

[J_cobbers]

Getting back to grenades, I think dragonfett is right about the CP-50's +1 to strike probably benefiting called shots too even if it doesn't explicitly mention called.

Yes, but wouldn't it would have to be an Aimed Called Shot (using 3 attack actions rather than just 2 for either an aimed shot or called shot), since the bonus on the gun is to aimed shots? You can make a called shot without also making an aimed shot and not get the bonus.

As for the PA in your original post that seems like a nice bonus to have for the grenades launcher if your character doesn't want to burn 3 attacks for just one shot.

I also got to shoot an M203 one day back on Active Duty as part of a deployment preparation. I, however, was not as accurate as The Beast, and never got into the zone with those blue chalk training rounds. :/ Some people really do kinda sync up with those things and can be pretty accurate, I however prefer to stick to a M16A2 without the extra doohickey.

[Blue_Lion]

The verb is 'strike', not 'hit'.

The CP-50 Dragonfire (CS) grants a +1 on an aimed shot, as does the CTT-M20 Missile Rifle (CS)

I believe the CTT-M20's strike bonus only applies to its laser since it is usually loaded with guided mini-missiles which have their own unique strike rolls and bonuses, unlike unguided mini-missiles which can use the WP skill.

"Remember, mini-missiles are self-guided, so once launched they will find their target".

RUE 364's "Unless indicated otherwise in a specific weapon, robot, vehicle or launcher description, mini-missiles nad most types of missiles are NOT guided" would not apply in the case of the CTT-M20 since its description explicitly mentions guided mini-missiles being used for it.

This would create problems for the CS using called shots with it because guided mini-missiles are the norm and those missiles don't have a WP skill to make called shots with.

I guess it would be possible to custom-order some dumb missiles but the CS probably would only trust that to elite troops with high WP skill that gives them equal or better strike bonuses to avoid wasting ammunition on shots which miss or will be dodged. There's not much value in the capability of making called shots if you're just going to miss them.

Another reason might be that they want the Missile Rifle to be usable by troops who may not necessarily have the WP Heavy MD skill, although that might not be likely since I think it could fall under the "-5 to strike when shooting a machine gun or other heavy weapon" since the CTT-M20 appears to be a heavy weapon.

The CR-1 Rocket Launcher (RUE 258) might not though, it's merely 14 pounds after all, I wouldn't apply that -5 to people without a WP. Given that it doesn't indicate any use of guided missiles I would now assume that unguided are the standard ammunition.

It's be nice to be given different prices... I'm inclined to think that there should be some kind of extra price for guided missiles since you would need additional maneuvering jets, software, hardware, etc. compared to a dumb missile.

Getting back to grenades, I think dragonfett is right about the CP-50's +1 to strike probably benefitting called shots too even if it doesn't explicitly mention called.

Is that because you are looking at out dated rules again from before RUE. (The missile launcher should have been updated to +1 to strike do to its targeting bonus to be in line with RUE.)

In RUE missile rules changed the +1 to aimed shots does not apply to even dumb fire missiles. As they do not use the aimed shot rules from weapon profinecy but all missiles even dumb ones use a seperate set of strike that does not allow out side bonuses such as aimed shots.
See Pge 364 of RUE. for missiles rules and page 360-361 for modern weapon profiencies.
Modern weapons require a 8 or higher with bonuses to hit.
Missiles require a roll of 5-20 to hit. The missile strike rules also limit the bonuses that can be applied.

Before RUE any ranged attack that was not a burst or wild was an aimed shot.

A + 1 to strike is a targeting bonus on all non wild ranged attacks and that can apply to missiles according to RUE.

[Mack]

Been exploring some less controversial explosive avenues lately. Noticed WB34(NG2)p68 the NG-X144 "Thumper" for the Blue Boy power armor mentions "+1 to strike with a grenade on an Aimed/Called Shot when only one is fired".

Does anyone recall any other grenade launchers which can explicitly make called shots? I'm not sure if I should assume all of them can or if it might be a special feature.

Grenades never struck me as particularly accurate weapons, so I'm wondering if maybe only special launchers can aim well enough to call while simply chucking them would only be able to hit the main body since it's via an Ancient WP throwing skill rather than a Modern WP gun skill.

Keep in mind that "everything in the blast radius suffers half damage." Full damage only applies "to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of)". RUE p363.

So a character may have a very good reason for aiming at a particular spot.

[Zer0 Kay]

any non-missile weapon capable of single shots can make a called shot.

But everything that launches setting is by definition a missile weapon

[dragonfett]

any non-missile weapon capable of single shots can make a called shot.

But everything that launches setting is by definition a missile weapon

By that logic, a bow and arrow would be a missile weapon as the bow launches the arrow, and the same would hold true for normal guns as the bullet is launched from the gun.

[J_cobbers]

I know you guys are being incredulous, and playing with semantics on purpose but come on.

We all know the in game definition of a missile is not the literal technical definition of a missile weapon; ie any weapon that launches a projectile, but rather a flying rocket propelled projectile with some kind of warhead, usually in the form of an explosive and depending on the type, it may or may not have a smart guidance system.

That is not bullets, rail gun rounds, arrows or as is pertinent to this discussion, rifle fired grenades.

[Alrik Vas]

But wait! If they are missiles, and a railgun fires 4 or more missiles per attack, YOU CAN'T DODGE THEM!

But does that mean you can shoot them down? @.@

[J_cobbers]

But wait! If they are missiles, and a railgun fires 4 or more missiles per attack, YOU CAN'T DODGE THEM!

But does that mean you can shoot them down? @.@

Well obviously you'd be right on both points. And based on the rules for shooting down missiles, the best thing to do is to shoot them down with another missile weapon in an equal volley, so you'd really want to be shooting them down with another rail gun. The BG boom gun being the best rail gun option for either an attack or defense, not based on damage mind you, but on the number of missiles (200 flechette rounds) so it'd be ideal to shoot down other incoming rail gun attacks, and only another boomgun would have the best chance of defending against it.

[Blue_Lion]

The rules for on missile combat it does not say missile weapons. The rules for missile combat in the first paragraph limit it to specific weapons.

[Alrik Vas]

The rules for on missile combat it does not say missile weapons. The rules for missile combat in the first paragraph limit it to specific weapons.

We are all, everyone of us, aware of this.

[taalismn]

Against old tanks there are even hand grenades that can penetrate the armor if you get the right throw.

If you're spending the extra action for the called shot, you should absolutely get the benefit of it.

Seems I remember reading about those. Some of them looked like bigger versions of the German Stielhandgranate. The Soviets had similar in weapons like the RPG-6(Ruchnaya Protivotankovaya Granata, "Handheld Anti-Tank Grenade")
That was the problem with the shaped charge AT grenades; you had to get them JUST right, or else they were just fragmentation explosives. Not at all easy to do when the tank and its supporting infantry are chewing up the landscape around you.

Hard to make a called shot with such thrown weapons, as luck and ballistics had more to do with landing the weapon, business-end to target, just right

[Alrik Vas]

Actually the Russian anti-tank grenade had a parachute, was designed to help it align straight down so it would hit the top armor and hopefully get crew injury.

This guy

[taalismn]

Actually the Russian anti-tank grenade had a parachute, was designed to help it align straight down so it would hit the top armor and hopefully get crew injury.

This guy

I have visions of somebody throwing that thing into a good headwind, and seeing it sail behind them.
"Do not spit or throw this grenade into the wind."

[glitterboy2098]

more of a streamer than a parachute, it wouldn't provide much lift in wind, it was to make enough drag that the grenade wouldn't tumble. similar concept as the mesh-cone/feathers on a badminton shuttlecock.

[Blue_Lion]

Actually the Russian anti-tank grenade had a parachute, was designed to help it align straight down so it would hit the top armor and hopefully get crew injury.

This guy

I have visions of somebody throwing that thing into a good headwind, and seeing it sail behind them.
"Do not spit or throw this grenade into the wind."

Hey now you only make that mistake once.

[J_cobbers]

The rules for on missile combat it does not say missile weapons. The rules for missile combat in the first paragraph limit it to specific weapons.

We are all, everyone of us, aware of this.

Indeed, we were just 'ing around for minute. If anyone took my last post seriously and missed my heavy sarcasm emphasized with smiley faces, well I'm glad you were there to clear it up (and I am actually serious about that!)

[Axelmania]

Is that because you are looking at out dated rules again from before RUE. (The missile launcher should have been updated to +1 to strike do to its targeting bonus to be in line with RUE.)

I'm not sure what kind of update you're intending here. I think the CTT-M20 already has a +1 to strike, I just think it would only apply to the laser since it uses guided missiles which have their own guidance and don't benefit from any other bonuses from the gun/shooter. I imagine it would be a similar case for rocket-propelled grenades.

In RUE missile rules changed the +1 to aimed shots does not apply to even dumb fire missiles. As they do not use the aimed shot rules from weapon profinecy but all missiles even dumb ones use a seperate set of strike that does not allow out side bonuses such as aimed shots.

The separate 1D20+3 is for guided missiles

Unguided grenades/missiles use WP Heavy MD Weapons, Weapons Systems, Power Armor Combat, etc.

See Pge 364 of RUE. for missiles rules and page 360-361 for modern weapon profiencies.

364's +3/+5 is only mentioned for the rare situations when guided/smart are used.

Modern weapons require a 8 or higher with bonuses to hit.
Missiles require a roll of 5-20 to hit. The missile strike rules also limit the bonuses that can be applied.

The 5+ to strike certainly applies when a missile is making the strike roll, since it is in close range with whatever it is hitting.

It is 8+ to strike as usual when a pilot is making the strike roll when using grenades or missiles as ammunition.

We should also keep in mind critical hit ranges. Critical hit ranges from the pilot's hand to hand skills would apply to unguided missiles but they would not apply to guided/smart missiles.

A + 1 to strike is a targeting bonus on all non wild ranged attacks and that can apply to missiles according to RUE.

Correct, but only with unguided missiles. When the missile is the one making the strike roll, it can't use the bonus because it is no longer connected to the targetting gun and doesn't have skills like Robot Combat.

[Blue_Lion]

The 5+ is all missiles guided or unguided it is a blanket rule for all missiles not guided missiles. (The 8+ never applies to missiles.)
The way it is written the bonus to strike from targeting platforms applies to all missiles from the platform guided or unguided.

Unguided missiles do not use WP heavy/weapons system the only missile that gets WP is mini as a special bonus to just them from weapons heavy, they still use all missile strike rules.

It is odd that it tells you to remember something that has never been true by default. Mini missiles have never had the default of being guided.

A guided missile still s targeted by the user it just gets a +3 by the way the rules are written. Even the smart bombs does not say the missile makes the attack roll and not the user. That can be reasonably assumed from the part about seek out and attack a specific target, but is not stated.

[Axelmania]

Basically 5+ is talking about missiles making strike rolls, something that happens when they are guided or smart. They don't make a strike roll when they are unguided, it's the pilot who makes the strike roll instead, and since he remains distant from the target he would roll 8+.

I'm not talking about mini-missiles always being guided, just in the specific case of the CTT-M20 which explicitly mentions the use of guided missiles.

If they don't use WP Heavy (MD) then why does the WP skill mention missiles?

I think it's pretty clear that smart missiles make their own rolls.

[Alrik Vas]

I house rule this the way I do for a very, very important reason. (VERY IMPORTANT)

Arguing about palladium's rules is pointless.

[Blue_Lion]

Basically 5+ is talking about missiles making strike rolls, something that happens when they are guided or smart. They don't make a strike roll when they are unguided, it's the pilot who makes the strike roll instead, and since he remains distant from the target he would roll 8+.

I'm not talking about mini-missiles always being guided, just in the specific case of the CTT-M20 which explicitly mentions the use of guided missiles.

If they don't use WP Heavy (MD) then why does the WP skill mention missiles?

I think it's pretty clear that smart missiles make their own rolls.

Thing is the roll greater than a five rule for missile strikes also says most missiles are unguided. The missile strike rules adress all missiles not just the rare guided.

If it was just guided then they would tell us the rule was for guided.

The rule never specifies it is the missile that rolls. That is a condition you are adding that is unsuported.

Ifyou actualy read the misile rule you would see why, mini missiles are the only missiles that use the skill. As minimissiles are atype of missiles the are what the skill refers to. They by rules get a bonus from the skill but still use missile strike rules.

Really I think where they talk about missile strikes and bonus covers this fairly clearly. And it is all one heading. No need to over think it.

[Axelmania]

Missiles don't make a strike roll when they're guided though, it's the player who makes it. The custom 5+ is for when they make the roll. Missiles strike on a 5+ because they're in melee range rather than long range when they hit.

It has to be the missile roll or WP bonuses and stuff from the pilot would count. Those don't because no matter how he aims it, a guidance system (whether simple or smart) takes over, for better or worse.

If the WP skill doesn't apply to short and higher then that would be strong incentive for using guidance systems for the more expensive higher-payload longer-range missiles.

"self guided, missiles are launched as separate units with their own bonus of +3 to strike"

Separate unit clearly means they're making their own rolls, with their own bonuses.

"and that's why they need a roll to strike" on Ultimate 363, who is 'they' ? Seems to imply the missile making the roll too.

We know it's certainly the case with smart missiles and guided are more alike to those than to unguided. The difference is guided missiles have 1 attack per melee (non-refundable) and aren't programmed to dodge (wouldn't be a point wasting your only attack on that)

[Blue_Lion]

Missiles don't make a strike roll when they're guided though, it's the player who makes it. The custom 5+ is for when they make the roll. Missiles strike on a 5+ because they're in melee range rather than long range when they hit.

It has to be the missile roll or WP bonuses and stuff from the pilot would count. Those don't because no matter how he aims it, a guidance system (whether simple or smart) takes over, for better or worse.

If the WP skill doesn't apply to short and higher then that would be strong incentive for using guidance systems for the more expensive higher-payload longer-range missiles.

"self guided, missiles are launched as separate units with their own bonus of +3 to strike"

Separate unit clearly means they're making their own rolls, with their own bonuses.

"and that's why they need a roll to strike" on Ultimate 363, who is 'they' ? Seems to imply the missile making the roll too.

We know it's certainly the case with smart missiles and guided are more alike to those than to unguided. The difference is guided missiles have 1 attack per melee (non-refundable) and aren't programmed to dodge (wouldn't be a point wasting your only attack on that)

If you aregoing to pull a quote from the do include more than 1/4 a sentabce so it is easy to check. As in this case you are mis quoting the book.

Page 363 rue-Mini-missiles
"Mini-missiles are NOT guided missiles. That is why they require a roll to strike..."

Hmm that does not seam to match you quote and the context does not support you guided missiles make there own rolls.

Most of you quotes do not seam to apear in the book. Selfguided is a term atributed ri smart missiles. Non smart guided missiles are called guided missiles not self guided.

By the book all missiles use the missile strike rules and most non long range, non multi warhead missiles are unguided.

You post is full of assumptions and non book quotes. It is not correct by RAW.

[guardiandashi]

Missiles don't make a strike roll when they're guided though, it's the player who makes it. The custom 5+ is for when they make the roll. Missiles strike on a 5+ because they're in melee range rather than long range when they hit.

It has to be the missile roll or WP bonuses and stuff from the pilot would count. Those don't because no matter how he aims it, a guidance system (whether simple or smart) takes over, for better or worse.

If the WP skill doesn't apply to short and higher then that would be strong incentive for using guidance systems for the more expensive higher-payload longer-range missiles.

"self guided, missiles are launched as separate units with their own bonus of +3 to strike"

Separate unit clearly means they're making their own rolls, with their own bonuses.

"and that's why they need a roll to strike" on Ultimate 363, who is 'they' ? Seems to imply the missile making the roll too.

We know it's certainly the case with smart missiles and guided are more alike to those than to unguided. The difference is guided missiles have 1 attack per melee (non-refundable) and aren't programmed to dodge (wouldn't be a point wasting your only attack on that)

If you aregoing to pull a quote from the do include more than 1/4 a sentabce so it is easy to check. As in this case you are mis quoting the book.

Page 363 rue-Mini-missiles
"Mini-missiles are NOT guided missiles. That is why they require a roll to strike..."

Hmm that does not seam to match you quote and the context does not support you guided missiles make there own rolls.

Most of you quotes do not seam to apear in the book. Selfguided is a term atributed ri smart missiles. Non smart guided missiles are called guided missiles not self guided.

By the book all missiles use the missile strike rules and most non long range, non multi warhead missiles are unguided.

You post is full of assumptions and non book quotes. It is not correct by RAW.

yes and no...

as far as the guided missiles making their own strike rolls that was called out in the robotech missile combat rules which is essentially copy and pasted into the rifts book prior to RUE, in RUE parts of it were edited somewhat.

prior to the RUE retcon, ALL short range missiles and above were guided, or better IE they got the +3 or +5 to strike and made their own attack rolls.

mini-missiles are not guided in that the firing unit makes the strike roll and puts them on course to their target.

I will stipulate that it appears that all "missiles" mini, short, medium, long, and cruise appear to be able to maneuver and change course if directed to do so.

this whole discussion about targeting and aiming is such that I believe I IF I ever run a game am going to go with a small house rule. ALL missiles except mini-missiles are guided UNLESS specifically noted otherwise. Mini-missiles are unguided, unless specifically noted otherwise.

which of course also invokes an additional house rule, NO guided missile may make a called shot, however "unguided" ones may.

[Alrik Vas]

That is the more sensible way to do things, yeah. It's how I tend to as well. Though I give the poor missiles some better bonuses. Look at them, all sad with those tiny numbers.

Poor little darlings.

[Blue_Lion]

Making house rules to make rhe game make sense is fine. Making untrue claims about raw is not. His claim that tesahe any roll greater than 4, is for guided missiles making there own strike is untrue by raw.

I am well aware that befor rue all missiles exept mini where guided.
Even in the orginal rifts book it never said the missile is making the strike roll. That is a just a wild claim based on misunderstanding of the rules. It said they did not enjoy/recieve the pilots.

It is only smart misiles that have ever been listed with attacks of their own not guided missiles.

So there is grouds for smart missiles making their own strike however his claim that the greater than a four rule is because guided missiles make there own roll is unsuported house rule. Being a seperate unit does not mean it makes its own roll, just that after launched it is bot part of what aimed and fired it.

Honestly I had no way to know he was misung out dated rules as he never said where the quotes where from.

[Axelmania]

Blue you still need to support that missiles need to roll 4+ at the long range that requires 8+ which I think is somewhere in the range of 50 feet. Pilots shooting long range attacks do 8+ now so the only context that 4+ does make sense is when the aimer is in close range, which would be the case when the missile itself is the aimer.

Separate units do indeed make their own rolls, thus the 'separate' part.

Kind of like how I'm not the one rolling to parry if I do the circle of blades spell, it's the blades that roll.

[Blue_Lion]

Wait I need support that the missile strike rules apply to missiles. Do you mean besides where it says on page 364 of rue under the heading of missile strikes.

"As usual, a D20 is rolled to determine weather a missile hits or misses. Any roll above a four (5-20) hits unless the defender/target can dodge or shoot the missile down before it hits."

There you have they just said to hit with a missile takes a roll greater than four (5-20). They do not specify differnt rules to strike for guided and unguided.

Not necarily true that seperate make there own rules as a remote controled unit would not make its own rules. Bullets are a seperate unit from a gun.(not that out dated rule wording is relevent here.) It never says something seperate makes its own roll. In fact any thing not a pc generated roll should be done by the gm not the player. If the player is by default rolling for missiles then the missile is using pc rolls. And yes I know some gms let players roll for actions of nonplayer charcters vut that is more of a house rule.

I am not familar with that spell does it actualy say the spell parries or that it allows a pary with +x.(seams to me like you are now sayin a vibro claw with +1 to parry rolls to parry not the charter wielding it.) Please provide the book, page number and word for word what the spell says about parry if you wish it to be used. Not that what a spell does nesarily applies to tech weapons.

To me it seams that this may be a case that you have an idea stuck un your head clouding your jusjment. That makes you think that any thing that can be read in a way to suport it means it has to work that way. As the curant rifts rules never say any missiles other than smart have attacks(do not think any rifts books do) and never says it is the missile that rolls,to me this seams ynsuported unless you can find clear statnent that it is the missile naking the roll. Note- the misile target number is closer to the orginal strike rules,but that does not mean it is using mellee combat rules. The (5-20) can even be argued as a unnodified die roll.

[Alrik Vas]

Why do missiles have a 5-20 hit rate when they're ranged attacks? (which is 8-20)

[Axelmania]

Why do missiles have a 5-20 hit rate when they're ranged attacks? (which is 8-20)

The reason for that is because when a missile makes a strike roll (which smart missiles certainly do, and probably also guided) they are in hand to hand range when they are adjusting their aim at the final second.

An unguided missile on the other hand, can't do this, so the strike roll is made by the pilot at long range. A pilot could only avoid 8+ and do 5+ if he was firing point-blank.

Page 364 under Missile Strikes:

"most self-guided missiles are preprogrammed to respond to specific images, or specific heat or radiation levels which clearly identify the enemy"

As a RESPONDER, a self-guided missile is clearly making its own actions.

Wait I need support that the missile strike rules apply to missiles. Do you mean besides where it says on page 364 of rue under the heading of missile strikes.

"As usual, a D20 is rolled to determine weather a missile hits or misses. Any roll above a four (5-20) hits unless the defender/target can dodge or shoot the missile down before it hits."

There you have they just said to hit with a missile takes a roll greater than four (5-20). They do not specify differnt rules to strike for guided and unguided.

That's only whether the "missile" (as the striker) hits or misses. IT hits.

If a person is shooting the missile it would be "HE hits" or "SHE hits"

Not necarily true that seperate make there own rules as a remote controled unit would not make its own rules.

Yes, they would, like if you have a rune weapon or a remote-controlled spider-gun they would also make their own rolls.

Bullets are a seperate unit from a gun.(not that out dated rule wording is relevent here.) It never says something seperate makes its own roll.

There is a difference between a separate object and a separate UNIT. If we know guided missiles are separate units and that unguided missiles are NOT separate units then that draws a line, and clearly bullets belong on the 'unguided missile' side of the line, since they do not respond to enemies like guided missiles do, they are 'fire and forget' like unguided missiles (barring something cool like a "smart bullet" like on a recent episode of the TV series Scorpion)

any thing not a pc generated roll should be done by the gm not the player. If the player is by default rolling for missiles then the missile is using pc rolls. And yes I know some gms let players roll for actions of nonplayer charcters vut that is more of a house rule.

In that case the GM should roll for smart missiles and responsive guided missiles, but much like I'd allow a player to roll for their golem or magic warrior, I see no harm in allowing them to roll for these too.

I am not familar with that spell does it actualy say the spell parries or that it allows a pary with +x.(seams to me like you are now sayin a vibro claw with +1 to parry rolls to parry not the charter wielding it.) Please provide the book, page number and word for word what the spell says about parry if you wish it to be used. Not that what a spell does nesarily applies to tech weapons.

Federation of Magic 142-3 "Spinning Blades" (level 7 spell) "the blades will move to parry all physical attacks". The mage's mental direction is only indicated for using the spell as an attack, the defense is clearly presented as automatic and supplementary to the mage's own defensive abilities.

To me it seams that this may be a case that you have an idea stuck un your head clouding your jusjment. That makes you think that any thing that can be read in a way to suport it means it has to work that way. As the curant rifts rules never say any missiles other than smart have attacks(do not think any rifts books do) and never says it is the missile that rolls,to me this seams ynsuported unless you can find clear statnent that it is the missile naking the roll. Note- the misile target number is closer to the orginal strike rules,but that does not mean it is using mellee combat rules. The (5-20) can even be argued as a unnodified die roll.

A separate unit clearly makes its own rolls, a smart missile is just like a skeleton. There's no point in listing for attacks per melee for non-smart guided missiles since they only make 1 attack.

Missiles hit or miss only when rolling as a separate unit. For unguided missiles since they are not separate units, it is the missileer who hits or misses.

As for the 'unmodified' theory, it's clear on page 361 (ranged 8+ statement) and 362 (armor piercing missile statement) that the concept of a "roll" can include bonuses. The precedent is it must declare "unmodified" or "natural" for that to be the case, otherwise bonuses are counted as the "roll".

[Blue_Lion]

Why do missiles have a 5-20 hit rate when they're ranged attacks? (which is 8-20)

The question you have is because a mistake in identing rules. There are two sets of rules under the heading ranged weapons. The modified 8+ is rules under modern weapon profciency. Missiles have there own seperate but equal rules to strike on any roll greater than 4(5-20).

It is not as some one is claiming that the misile is making its own attack at close range to use the mellee combat modiedied 5+.

Missiles enjoy a lower target number but lack the abilty to hit any where but the main body. lacking the bonuses to hit unguided missiles have about the same chance to hit as normal range attacks

[Blue_Lion]

Why do missiles have a 5-20 hit rate when they're ranged attacks? (which is 8-20)

The reason for that is because when a missile makes a strike roll (which smart missiles certainly do, and probably also guided) they are in hand to hand range when they are adjusting their aim at the final second.

An unguided missile on the other hand, can't do this, so the strike roll is made by the pilot at long range. A pilot could only avoid 8+ and do 5+ if he was firing point-blank.

Page 364 under Missile Strikes:

"most self-guided missiles are preprogrammed to respond to specific images, or specific heat or radiation levels which clearly identify the enemy"

As a RESPONDER, a self-guided missile is clearly making its own actions.

Wait I need support that the missile strike rules apply to missiles. Do you mean besides where it says on page 364 of rue under the heading of missile strikes.

"As usual, a D20 is rolled to determine weather a missile hits or misses. Any roll above a four (5-20) hits unless the defender/target can dodge or shoot the missile down before it hits."

There you have they just said to hit with a missile takes a roll greater than four (5-20). They do not specify differnt rules to strike for guided and unguided.

That's only whether the "missile" (as the striker) hits or misses. IT hits.

If a person is shooting the missile it would be "HE hits" or "SHE hits"

Not necarily true that seperate make there own rules as a remote controled unit would not make its own rules.

Yes, they would, like if you have a rune weapon or a remote-controlled spider-gun they would also make their own rolls.

Bullets are a seperate unit from a gun.(not that out dated rule wording is relevent here.) It never says something seperate makes its own roll.

There is a difference between a separate object and a separate UNIT. If we know guided missiles are separate units and that unguided missiles are NOT separate units then that draws a line, and clearly bullets belong on the 'unguided missile' side of the line, since they do not respond to enemies like guided missiles do, they are 'fire and forget' like unguided missiles (barring something cool like a "smart bullet" like on a recent episode of the TV series Scorpion)

any thing not a pc generated roll should be done by the gm not the player. If the player is by default rolling for missiles then the missile is using pc rolls. And yes I know some gms let players roll for actions of nonplayer charcters vut that is more of a house rule.

In that case the GM should roll for smart missiles and responsive guided missiles, but much like I'd allow a player to roll for their golem or magic warrior, I see no harm in allowing them to roll for these too.

I am not familar with that spell does it actualy say the spell parries or that it allows a pary with +x.(seams to me like you are now sayin a vibro claw with +1 to parry rolls to parry not the charter wielding it.) Please provide the book, page number and word for word what the spell says about parry if you wish it to be used. Not that what a spell does nesarily applies to tech weapons.

Federation of Magic 142-3 "Spinning Blades" (level 7 spell) "the blades will move to parry all physical attacks". The mage's mental direction is only indicated for using the spell as an attack, the defense is clearly presented as automatic and supplementary to the mage's own defensive abilities.

To me it seams that this may be a case that you have an idea stuck un your head clouding your jusjment. That makes you think that any thing that can be read in a way to suport it means it has to work that way. As the curant rifts rules never say any missiles other than smart have attacks(do not think any rifts books do) and never says it is the missile that rolls,to me this seams ynsuported unless you can find clear statnent that it is the missile naking the roll. Note- the misile target number is closer to the orginal strike rules,but that does not mean it is using mellee combat rules. The (5-20) can even be argued as a unnodified die roll.

A separate unit clearly makes its own rolls, a smart missile is just like a skeleton. There's no point in listing for attacks per melee for non-smart guided missiles since they only make 1 attack.

Missiles hit or miss only when rolling as a separate unit. For unguided missiles since they are not separate units, it is the missileer who hits or misses.

As for the 'unmodified' theory, it's clear on page 361 (ranged 8+ statement) and 362 (armor piercing missile statement) that the concept of a "roll" can include bonuses. The precedent is it must declare "unmodified" or "natural" for that to be the case, otherwise bonuses are counted as the "roll".

Tour poo ost is based off peronal conjecture and opinion,not fact. The rulejust says the die is rolled to detemibe if a misile hits or missides it never is stated as a rule for just guided smart misiles and even goes on in the next paragraph of the heading missile strikes. Lacking a disclaimer that it only aplies to missile x it applies to all missiles.

Looking at the spell it never says the spell makes the roll just that it provides a +6/+2 to parry.

Basicaly you are tring to pass you personal gm call as RAW. There is bo text that says missile strike, rules only apply to guided missiles or that the rule is (5-20) when the misile makes the roll.

Think about it this way why would a rule in a section on missile combat not apply to most missile bt default?
That is what you are claiming that the missile strike rule does not apply to most missiles. I would think be default a rule for missiles aplies to all missiles unless otherwise stated.

And befor tou try and flip it the 8+ and other modern weapon profiency rules are in a seperate subsection called modern weapon proficeny and covers weapons using them, and do not aplly to missile section unless told they do. All conflicts use last rule printed.

[Axelmania]

The question you have is because a mistake in identing rules. There are two sets of rules under the heading ranged weapons. The modified 8+ is rules under modern weapon profciency. Missiles have there own seperate but equal rules to strike on any roll greater than 4(5-20).

It doesn't say anywhere that the 8+ rule doesn't apply to missiles.

Therefore it only makes sense to ignore it when missiles are making strikes in non-ranged combat.

It is not as some one is claiming that the misile is making its own attack at close range to use the mellee combat modiedied 5+.

That's the only logical time the statement would make sense. When it's not the missile making the strike roll to hit something adjacent to itself, it is a missileer using a missile as a projectile in ranged combat.

Case in point: the "fastball special" in superhero comics. Normally a hero like wolverine would be making a melee attack with his claws and need a 5, but when someone throws him as a projectile, the thrower is engaged in ranged combat and needs an 8.

Missiles enjoy a lower target number but lack the abilty to hit any where but the main body. lacking the bonuses to hit unguided missiles have about the same chance to hit as normal range attacks

Missiles do lack a WP skill so when they are making an attack they can't do a called shot and will indeed always strike the main body just like anyone lacking a WP skill would be forced to do. Smart missiles are limited in this capacity, as are guided missiles which are also separate units and thus make their own strike roll.

A pilot with WP Heavy MD on the other hand, has no such restrictions when using unguided missiles to shoot mini-missiles.

It may not be possible to use WP Heavy MD with larger missiles though, sort of a gray area. Frustrating because there's some decent portable small/medium launchers out there and you need that type of range to beat the best rail guns.

Tour poo ost is based off peronal conjecture and opinion,not fact. The rulejust says the die is rolled to detemibe if a misile hits or missides it never is stated as a rule for just guided smart misiles and even goes on in the next paragraph of the heading missile strikes. Lacking a disclaimer that it only aplies to missile x it applies to all missiles.

The missile as a striker would only apply to missiles which are their own units, only smart/guided are separate units.

Unguided missiles don't strike, they are used to strike be a missileer who makes the roll and does the aiming for it.

Looking at the spell it never says the spell makes the roll just that it provides a +6/+2 to parry.

It says the blades move, it's clearly an automatic parry done independently of the spellcaster.

Basicaly you are tring to pass you personal gm call as RAW. There is bo text that says missile strike, rules only apply to guided missiles or that the rule is (5-20) when the misile makes the roll.

Guided missiles are the only missiles which strike, unguided missiles do not strike, they are not agents, they are acted upon by missileers who use them to strike.

Think about it this way why would a rule in a section on missile combat not apply to most missile bt default?

That is what you are claiming that the missile strike rule does not apply to most missiles. I would think be default a rule for missiles aplies to all missiles unless otherwise stated.

Page 361's "All Ranged Attacks" (lower right) should apply to all ranged attacks unless stated otherwise. The very same page which specifies mini-missile launchers (upper left) as being part of Ranged Combat.

Page 364's "Missile Strikes" includes rules which apply to a minority of missiles. One of them is the 5+ in the first paragraph. Another is the special bonuses which apply to guided and smart missiles in the second paragraph.

And befor tou try and flip it the 8+ and other modern weapon profiency rules are in a seperate subsection called modern weapon proficeny and covers weapons using them, and do not aplly to missile section unless told they do. All conflicts use last rule printed.

This is false. Missiles are part of Ranged Combat. All rules apply. WP Heavy MD applies to missiles and is under Ranged Combat. The table of contents on page 6's left column clearly shows Ranged Combat spans from 361 to 365 because the next bolded heading is 366 for Psychic Combat.

[Blue_Lion]

.....edited out do to repeat post.

[Blue_Lion]

The rule on how to strike with missiles says any roll hihger than 4 (5-20). So yes a roll of 8 pluss would be a hit because hits start at a lower level for all missiles by raw. They donot need to say a rule that is differnt and printed earlier does not apply as default is last rule.

Missiles never strike in none range combat saying the do is false. Missile combat is one of two subcatagories of range combat.

Your logic makes no sense because all missile combat is part of range combat not mellee combat.

Page 361 is part the sub catagory modern weapon proficency,it is descusing weapons like guns. Missiles are never said to use . Note a roll of a 8 or hihger is still a hit with missiles because they start hitting at a lower target number.

It does state other wise for missiles in page 364 says missiles require a roll greater than a 4(5-20). That rule applies to all missiles unless stated otherwise. It even tells you on page 364 that mini-nisiles and only then get a bonus to strike from wp heavy mathing the listing on page 361that wp heavy provides familaity. However for missile combat the rules in the missile combat are used unless they say otherwise.

Note there are three times that base rules are repeated under different headings how to strike, natural 20 crit and dodging all apear under the headings hand to hand, modern weapon proficiency, and missile combat. Each section has these three core rules writen in a way specific to combat of that type. Basically each section has rules dor that kind of combat that are used when that type of combat is used. Suported by page 6 table of contents in how the section is written.

The idea that rule for missile combat does not apply to most missiles without being told so is so ilogical I can not see why you would believe it. To me that seams mire an ubsurd claim used just for the sake of creating an argument.

To me you have provided no support that non guided missiles only strike on a 8+, I will no longer post here as to me it seams I am being trolled by some one making wild illogical claims.

[Axelmania]

The rule on how to strike with missiles says any roll hihger than 4 (5-20). So yes a roll of 8 pluss would be a hit because hits start at a lower level for all missiles by raw. They donot need to say a rule that is differnt and printed earlier does not apply as default is last rule.

Text printed on a later page in the same book does not automatically over-ride text on an earlier page. Higher page count does not give text higher authority.

Page 361's "All Ranged Attacks: Requires a roll of 8 to strike (including W.P. & Sniping bonuses)." is absolute. The only thing it would not apply to is something which is not a ranged attack.

The only possible exclusion for missiles is if they are making a close range attack.

This is conceivable when the missile is making the strike roll because it can continue to aim and adjust its movements until the last second when a smart missile or a guided missile, as bother are independent units, agents of their own movements.

Missiles never strike in none range combat saying the do is false. Missile combat is one of two subcatagories of range combat.

Your logic makes no sense because all missile combat is part of range combat not mellee combat.

In respect to the shooter it is ranged, but missiles which act on their own go right up to their target and ram them, so it's a melee action in respect to them.

Page 361 is part the sub catagory modern weapon proficency,it is descusing weapons like guns. Missiles are never said to use . Note a roll of a 8 or hihger is still a hit with missiles because they start hitting at a lower target number.

You are incorrect again. As I stated in my previous post, mini-missile launchers are mentioned on the top-left of page 361. As are "weapons built into combat vehicles" which could conceivably cover all ranges of missile launchers.

Rules like 'shooting blind' or 'shooting wild' are introduced here. If you think to discount this section then would you also be arguing missiles don't suffer any of these penalties?

It does state other wise for missiles in page 364 says missiles require a roll greater than a 4(5-20). That rule applies to all missiles unless stated otherwise.

Correct, it applies to all missiles that make strike rolls.

Unguided missiles do not make strike rolls. They don't strike. They are acted upon by external agents.

It even tells you on page 364 that mini-nisiles and only then get a bonus to strike from wp heavy mathing the listing on page 361that wp heavy provides familaity. However for missile combat the rules in the missile combat are used unless they say otherwise.

Please explain better what contradiction you are seeing between 361 and 364, I'm not understanding you too well.

As I understand it, if it is a mini-missile (unguided per 363) there is no +3/+5 but you can get a +1 to strike at 2/4/7/10/13 from WP Heavy MD.

If it is a larger missile, 364 specifies rare "multi-warhead and long range", will probably be guided, so even if you didn't have WP Heavy MD you can get the +3 which guided missiles enjoy.

Note there are three times that base rules are repeated under different headings how to strike, natural 20 crit and dodging all apear under the headings hand to hand, modern weapon proficiency, and missile combat. Each section has these three core rules writen in a way specific to combat of that type. Basically each section has rules dor that kind of combat that are used when that type of combat is used. Suported by page 6 table of contents in how the section is written.

Repeating rules like natural 20s as a reminder does not mean that missiles are not part of ranged combat. Missiles are absolutely part of ranged combat and follow all ranged combat rules.

There are only 2 sets. Missiles just have additional considerations (volleys, being able to shoot them down) which other ranged combat don't have, so they have a supplementary section.

The idea that rule for missile combat does not apply to most missiles without being told so is so ilogical I can not see why you would believe it. To me that seams mire an ubsurd claim used just for the sake of creating an argument.

To me you have provided no support that non guided missiles only strike on a 8+, I will no longer post here as to me it seams I am being trolled by some one making wild illogical claims.

The issue here is that these rules apply when a missile is enganged in combat as its own agent. As guided and smart missiles do.

Unguided missiles aren't agents, they do not make their own rolls to strike, they are not discrete units. Like a bullet they are simply shot and follow all standard ranged combat rules.

The 8+ applies in that case, because the aimer, the striker (the missileer) is at range from their target.

Using a 5+ melee-range strike only makes sense for guided/smart missiles because they are in close range to their targets when they are still aiming at them at the last second.

Kind of like how I can start a jump kick from a distance but it's still 5+ because by the time the kick lands, I am in close range to my target.

[Alrik Vas]

Why do missiles have a 5-20 hit rate when they're ranged attacks? (which is 8-20)

The question you have is because a mistake in identing rules. There are two sets of rules under the heading ranged weapons. The modified 8+ is rules under modern weapon profciency. Missiles have there own seperate but equal rules to strike on any roll greater than 4(5-20).

It is not as some one is claiming that the misile is making its own attack at close range to use the mellee combat modiedied 5+.

Missiles enjoy a lower target number but lack the abilty to hit any where but the main body. lacking the bonuses to hit unguided missiles have about the same chance to hit as normal range attacks

That's a cute explanation, but it doesn't jive, sir. It sounds like your own supposition.

[Blue_Lion]

Why do missiles have a 5-20 hit rate when they're ranged attacks? (which is 8-20)

The question you have is because a mistake in identing rules. There are two sets of rules under the heading ranged weapons. The modified 8+ is rules under modern weapon profciency. Missiles have there own seperate but equal rules to strike on any roll greater than 4(5-20).

It is not as some one is claiming that the misile is making its own attack at close range to use the mellee combat modiedied 5+.

Missiles enjoy a lower target number but lack the abilty to hit any where but the main body. lacking the bonuses to hit unguided missiles have about the same chance to hit as normal range attacks

That's a cute explanation, but it doesn't jive, sir. It sounds like your own supposition.

Check page 6 table of contents, you will see there are two subheading under range combat not tabbed, Modern weapon proficiency and missile combat, modern weapon proficiency starts on the same page as range combat. The two sub headings use different rules to strike.
Basically missiles and weapon proficiency are both sub heading/categories under ranged combat.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

.. i cant even believe this is still going on.

There's not even an argument to be had here. The rulebook plainly says that missiles strike on 5 or better. So they do.

I dont care that the rulebook says that "all ranged attacks" require an 8. Everything else might, but missiles do not. Because the rules say so.

That's the end of the argument. It's not even vague or unclear.