How to prevent power creep.

[Blue_Lion]

How would you prevent power creep if you where in charge of what got into rifts? Or would you even bother.

[Killer Cyborg]

How would you prevent power creep if you where in charge of what got into rifts? Or would you even bother.

I'd definitely bother.

The main way to prevent power creep would be to come up with comprehensive systems/formulas for designing everything.
Any writer (or GM, or player) wishing to create something new should have to make things fit that system (or have a darned good explanation why it does not).

For example:
An e-clip has x units of power, and each unit is capable of generating y units of force/damage.
Each energy type is capable of unleashing energy in certain damage increments (i.e., Physical inflicts d4s, lasers inflict d6s, Ion inflicts d8s, particle inflicts d10s, etc.) and of certain range increments, etc.
Each weapon type is capable of unleashing a certain number of damage increments per shot (i.e., pistols inflict 1 damage increment, rifles inflict 2 damage increments, heavy weapons inflict 3 damage increments, etc. )
Technology level allows and/or prevents certain effects, bonuses, and/or penalties.
Device efficiency likewise allows and/or prevents certain effects, bonuses, and/or penalties.

So anybody wishing to create a new energy pistol would have to go through a specific process of deciding stuff like:
I have an Ion (d8) pistol (1d), so the base damage is 1d8 per shot.
I want the weapon to be capable of more damage than that, though.
Available technology level allows for Pulses, but that would be expensive, so I'll compromise and make the weapon burst (3 shots for x2 damage) capable.
So the damage is now 1d8 MD per shot, or 2d8 for a 3-round burst.
Ion beams have a standard range increment of 1000' (or whatever), and the fact that this is a pistol cuts that down to 500'. I'm going to further halve the range in order to double the damage per shot, so now the weapon inflicts 2d8 per shot, or 4d8 for a 3-round burst, but that also increases the power consumption so I get fewer shots per e-clip...

(And so on, and so forth.)

Not specifically the system that I tossed up there, but a similar kind of system, because when everything is made using standardized rules, you get standardized results, and readers/players aren't left wondering why a nation that has the best tech on the continent has some of the worst weapons, until a new book comes out and they have some of the best weapons, until a newer book comes out and they have some of the worst weapons again.
You don't get crap like the Laser Bow.
You don't get anomalies like the L-20.
You get a system of technology that makes sense.

And you do the same thing with magic, psionics, character class, character race, and so on.

I wouldn't want to go overboard with it (GURPS), just to make things standardized enough for the world to not only make sense, but to make consistent sense over time, and to reign in purposeless power creep.

[dreicunan]

I wouldn't bother. It's been part of the game since the beginning. I see it as a feature, not a bug.

That said, I'd fully support a system like the one Killer Cyborg proposes, in part because it would result in weapon type being more than just flavor text in many situations. I'd love to see logical power creep as timelines advance in game.

[ShadowLogan]

How would you prevent power creep if you where in charge of what got into rifts? Or would you even bother.

Power Creep to me isn't the problem, realistically there should be power differences when comparing regions and time frames that can be justified. So from that POV I don't think I would even bother.

What I am bothered enough to consider changing is the lack of scale that was grafted into the system with 1E Robotech with the introduction of the ASC and NG eras that was carried over into Rifts. When a 1 kg of body armor (EBA or not) offers more protection for that mass than 1 kg of material on a a multi-ton machine, something is wrong.

To bring that sense of scale with protective values is pretty easy to plug back in if we assume that existing stats fall into various tiers (and there is a grouping in terms of Total MDC to Mass Ratio, once you factor out living creatures which as single category ended all over the map I never got around to "categorizing" them to see if clustering would happen) by increasing and/or decreasing the other tiers so the values all seem in scale (by factors of 10). The remaining scale issue then is the offensive values, which I suppose could be treated modified as the above, with flavor text modifying the results (ex. Glitterboy's Boomgun would be considered a tier above the PA suit) in some cases (though I don't like this aspect).

[kaid]

I wouldn't bother. It's been part of the game since the beginning. I see it as a feature, not a bug.

That said, I'd fully support a system like the one Killer Cyborg proposes, in part because it would result in weapon type being more than just flavor text in many situations. I'd love to see logical power creep as timelines advance in game.

Honestly weapons in a lot of ways are more flavor text at the moment already. Things sort of got a bit out of hand early on but overall the increases in weapon damage flattened out especially with the RUE removing the old burst rules. You don't see to many hand held weapons that do 1d6x10 any more and in recent books overall damage numbers have evened off weapon wise.

Armor wise things have inflated a bit but not outrageously so I think some of that increase was just to offset some of the hand held weapon damage stuff that had already existed for a while.

Still Rifts has always been a game with vast ranges of power in a group.

Things to remember no matter how fancy your armor is eventually it gets wrecked. As a GM you do not have to have replacement armor sets of the hottest best sort readily available. Sometimes you wind up using plastic man armor because it is literally the only thing being stocked in some podunk trade post in the middle of no where and it beats not having any armor at all.

Same goes for your fancy weapons if somebodies crazy south american rocket rifle is causing you problems have some NPC's do aimed shots at it. Attrition is a real concern in rifts everything degrades over time other than really rare stuff like rune weapons.

I tend to recommend having starting characters picked from the RUE and one of a handful of world books or the DB of north america book for the area you are starting in. If somebody has some specific desire for something in particular let them make their case but I find having some initial limits tends to keep peoples brains from exploding. If I point them at my wall of books and go pick an OCC from that new players eyes roll back in their head and analysis paralysis begins.

[Proseksword]

It's hard for me to get upset about power creep when one of the original, base O.C.C.s (Glitter Boy) came with a power armor that still outclasses most everything in the game. If anything, I have more of a problem with individual, outlier pieces of equipment being seemingly too powerful or too weak for what they are, rather than a specific frustration with the slow, across the board increase in armor MDC and weapon damage output, which are quite logical from the perspective of technological advancement.

[kaid]

It's hard for me to get upset about power creep when one of the original, base O.C.C.s (Glitter Boy) came with a power armor that still outclasses most everything in the game. If anything, I have more of a problem with individual, outlier pieces of equipment being seemingly too powerful or too weak for what they are, rather than a specific frustration with the slow, across the board increase in armor MDC and weapon damage output, which are quite logical from the perspective of technological advancement.

And even the outliers tend not to be that big of a deal in the long run. If it becomes an issue eventually over time attrition takes care of them. Some things when they get broken enough are just not repairable with the materials you find wandering about in the post-post apocalypse. If you are not in a major city city players may whine a bit but they simply are not always going to have easy access to repurchase/repair some uber fancy weapon especially one that is imported from other dimensions or distant lands. Travel is not easy in rifts earth and keeping your weapons from the other side of the planet functioning will eventually become more trouble than it is worth. Either that or the maintenance and repair of the beloved weapon becomes an adventure in itself and thats totally okay too.

[J_cobbers]

If you are keeping the SDC/MDC dynamic as is; I think I would introduce some form of scarcity (a good old form of GM controlling what the PC's can get) into the rules themselves, and I like KC's idea of figuring out a basic formula for stating equipment.

Better stuff should always be 1) harder to find or dangerous to acquire, and 2) more expensive.

But if like Shadow Logan, you want to do tiers of damage, the old D6 West End Games Star Wars RPG may be highly instructive, it had different scales for weapons and vehicles, where one scale did less damage to a higher scale or more to a lower scale. It went something like: Character scale; Speeder scale; Walker scale; starfigher scale; capital ship scale; and Death Star Scale. IIRC smaller scales got a bonus to doge against higher scales and did less damage, while higher scales got a bonus to damage against smaller ones.

At any rate applying a concept like this to rifts you might have scales like this for Rifts: Human scale; monsterous/hover bike scale; cyborg/ power armor scale; Supernatural / Robot vehicle scale; Fortress/Godlike scale; planetary scale. Then you apply some standard bonus/penalty to damage when going up or down a scale, and maybe to hit modifiers too.

[Glistam]

I agree wholeheartedly with KC's idea, but even more than that the best way in my opinion to prevent power creep is to stop introducing bigger and badder things. If M.D.C. is not supposed to be the "norm," then stop making everything M.D.C.. Some of the early adventures feature bandits with armor that only has 8 M.D.C., and can be damaged by S.D.C. attacks! More of that! Go back to the idea that supernatural foes have bizarre yet exploitable weaknesses. Silver, Mirrors, certain types of wood, whippoorwills, etcetera. Too many supernatural and magical creatures have no vulnerability other than "do enough M.D. to kill it."

[Mathew]

That campaign I ran I started the character VERY low and had everything be much more powerful than them. They were all earth normal 20th century humans stuck on Rift's Earth. So after several games the power level has crept up to where could just survive on Rifts Earth, and I never let them go so high. Took several gaming sessions before they would even survive combat with a single MDC creature because EVERYTHING was way more powerful than them.

[Blue_Lion]

How would you prevent power creep if you where in charge of what got into rifts? Or would you even bother.

I'd definitely bother.

The main way to prevent power creep would be to come up with comprehensive systems/formulas for designing everything.
Any writer (or GM, or player) wishing to create something new should have to make things fit that system (or have a darned good explanation why it does not).

For example:
An e-clip has x units of power, and each unit is capable of generating y units of force/damage.
Each energy type is capable of unleashing energy in certain damage increments (i.e., Physical inflicts d4s, lasers inflict d6s, Ion inflicts d8s, particle inflicts d10s, etc.) and of certain range increments, etc.
Each weapon type is capable of unleashing a certain number of damage increments per shot (i.e., pistols inflict 1 damage increment, rifles inflict 2 damage increments, heavy weapons inflict 3 damage increments, etc. )
Technology level allows and/or prevents certain effects, bonuses, and/or penalties.
Device efficiency likewise allows and/or prevents certain effects, bonuses, and/or penalties.

So anybody wishing to create a new energy pistol would have to go through a specific process of deciding stuff like:
I have an Ion (d8) pistol (1d), so the base damage is 1d8 per shot.
I want the weapon to be capable of more damage than that, though.
Available technology level allows for Pulses, but that would be expensive, so I'll compromise and make the weapon burst (3 shots for x2 damage) capable.
So the damage is now 1d8 MD per shot, or 2d8 for a 3-round burst.
Ion beams have a standard range increment of 1000' (or whatever), and the fact that this is a pistol cuts that down to 500'. I'm going to further halve the range in order to double the damage per shot, so now the weapon inflicts 2d8 per shot, or 4d8 for a 3-round burst, but that also increases the power consumption so I get fewer shots per e-clip...

(And so on, and so forth.)

Not specifically the system that I tossed up there, but a similar kind of system, because when everything is made using standardized rules, you get standardized results, and readers/players aren't left wondering why a nation that has the best tech on the continent has some of the worst weapons, until a new book comes out and they have some of the best weapons, until a newer book comes out and they have some of the worst weapons again.
You don't get crap like the Laser Bow.
You don't get anomalies like the L-20.
You get a system of technology that makes sense.

And you do the same thing with magic, psionics, character class, character race, and so on.

I wouldn't want to go overboard with it (GURPS), just to make things standardized enough for the world to not only make sense, but to make consistent sense over time, and to reign in purposeless power creep.

That would require official creation rules.
The question then comes up, how do you make two laser pistols from the same company different, flavor wise.

Now the question I have for you if you had the rules would you back fill it into existing items, or only apply it to new items?

[eliakon]

You can have a +/- x% for different items.
Possibly scaled by a "tech grade"
This would allow a quantifiable "this tech is better" Which would go a long way toward solving issues like "why are the weapons of the Kintanni and Mechanoids some of the weaker stuff out there, but some supposedly primitive races have super gear"
And no, I am not really sure how to make it fully. Possible idea is something like
Top Tier (Dominators, Elder Races, Do Not Pass Go)
Super Advanced (advanced races in PW and Rifts Invaders, Megaversal Legion)
Advanced Tech (top end experimental of normal races experimental Naruni gear)
High Tech III (cutting edge tech, like CWC and Naruni)
High Tech II
High Tech I
and so on

[Killer Cyborg]

The question then comes up, how do you make two laser pistols from the same company different, flavor wise.

You make them different flavor-wise.
First, artist pictures matter a LOT to most gamers. Two guns with identical stats, but different pictures, will appeal to different players.
Second, flavor text that doesn't necessarily affect anything helps. NG guns are often described as being "rugged, "reliable," or "sturdy." Not a game stat. Doesn't necessarily change things, but it feels like it does. Maybe one gun shoots a blue laser beam, and another shoots a red beam. Cosmetics count.
Third, the gun stats don't have to be identical. Ranges, strike bonuses (or penalties), power consumption, and so forth all make weapons different. Just because players, GMs, and especially writers know how to design virtually any weapon doesn't mean that PCs or NPCs or in-game companies do.

Now the question I have for you if you had the rules would you back fill it into existing items, or only apply it to new items?

I'd back-fill it into existing items.
Of course, I'd make a new edition anyway, if I had the choice, so this kind of thing would just be part of that.

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree wholeheartedly with KC's idea, but even more than that the best way in my opinion to prevent power creep is to stop introducing bigger and badder things. If M.D.C. is not supposed to be the "norm," then stop making everything M.D.C.. Some of the early adventures feature bandits with armor that only has 8 M.D.C., and can be damaged by S.D.C. attacks! More of that! Go back to the idea that supernatural foes have bizarre yet exploitable weaknesses. Silver, Mirrors, certain types of wood, whippoorwills, etcetera. Too many supernatural and magical creatures have no vulnerability other than "do enough M.D. to kill it."

Here, here!!!

[Phaze]

I disagree with notion that Power Creep in Rifts is an issue. I actually believe its the intent of design, a feature.

Reason 1: Realistically speaking, there are clearly superior arms and armor. Lithium power batteries carry more power per weight than NiCad or Alkaline. Different countries will develop different technologies, some clearly superior, especially in a world where global communication has been disrupted to the point of making isolationism the norm. In Rifts Earth many different new technologies are available and many different levels of sophistication. We have everything from spears to flintlocks to machine guns to TW Rocket Launchers... and that is just what was made on Earth. Then add to the mix all of the hardware coming from other worlds and dimensions. So trying to get the TW SuperDuper Magnetic Titanium Rail Boosted Gun (fuzzy dice included) to be balanced in game play is not going to work. The fact is, its not and shouldn't be.

Reason 2: Rifts is about the UNBALANCE of things rather than the balance. Its more about the character than the maximum damage you can deal or the damage you can take. Sure, there are characters (and GMs) that like to run the min/max game. Fine, but it won't be as enjoyable as those games where character and style are more important than dealing damage. The games i found most memorable were those that I wasn't the strongest character, but the character that stood out, for one reason or another. I had a Shemarian in my party when I was a GM. She was an awesome character, not because of the gun she carried, but because of the story line of the connection to ARCHIE that was severed and her walk to find 'humanity'. That is the true power of Role Playing...not just blowing stuff up, but creating a story.

This is one of the reasons I like Rifts... Sometimes you are going to be out-matched...what do you do then?

[Killer Cyborg]

I disagree with notion that Power Creep in Rifts is an issue. I actually believe its the intent of design, a feature.

Reason 1: Realistically speaking, there are clearly superior arms and armor. Lithium power batteries carry more power per weight than NiCad or Alkaline. Different countries will develop different technologies, some clearly superior, especially in a world where global communication has been disrupted to the point of making isolationism the norm. In Rifts Earth many different new technologies are available and many different levels of sophistication. We have everything from spears to flintlocks to machine guns to TW Rocket Launchers... and that is just what was made on Earth. Then add to the mix all of the hardware coming from other worlds and dimensions. So trying to get the TW SuperDuper Magnetic Titanium Rail Boosted Gun (fuzzy dice included) to be balanced in game play is not going to work. The fact is, its not and shouldn't be.

Aliens showing up with new, higher-tech guns isn't power creep.

What's power creep is when the average damage of the average gun increases from 2d4 MD to 2d6 MD, or when the CS without explanation creates a particle beam glove that inflicts 1d6x10 MD.
Power creep is when an entire core OCC is rendered obsolete by a new OCC that can literally do everything the old class can do, only better and more.
Power creep is when a T-Rex jumps from having 1d4x10 MDC to having over a hundred times as many, with comparable boosts in damage.
Power creep is when supernatural PS jumps from inflicting SDC damage, to inflicting Mega-Damage.
Power creep is when a mage can inflict 1d6x10 MD with a single spell at first level, instead of waiting until he's 10th level.
Power creep is when the basic power level of entire setting is changed over time.

Reason 2: Rifts is about the UNBALANCE of things rather than the balance. Its more about the character than the maximum damage you can deal or the damage you can take. Sure, there are characters (and GMs) that like to run the min/max game. Fine, but it won't be as enjoyable as those games where character and style are more important than dealing damage. The games i found most memorable were those that I wasn't the strongest character, but the character that stood out, for one reason or another. I had a Shemarian in my party when I was a GM. She was an awesome character, not because of the gun she carried, but because of the story line of the connection to ARCHIE that was severed and her walk to find 'humanity'. That is the true power of Role Playing...not just blowing stuff up, but creating a story.

This is one of the reasons I like Rifts... Sometimes you are going to be out-matched...what do you do then?

I both agree and disagree.
Mostly, I only disagree with your first sentence. When Rifts originally came out, it was a well-balanced system when it came to PCs.
What it was was deadly, and yeah, you were going to end up outmatched, and have to think things through.

[Zer0 Kay]

How would you prevent power creep if you where in charge of what got into rifts? Or would you even bother.

I'd definitely bother.

The main way to prevent power creep would be to come up with comprehensive systems/formulas for designing everything.
Any writer (or GM, or player) wishing to create something new should have to make things fit that system (or have a darned good explanation why it does not).

For example:
An e-clip has x units of power, and each unit is capable of generating y units of force/damage.
Each energy type is capable of unleashing energy in certain damage increments (i.e., Physical inflicts d4s, lasers inflict d6s, Ion inflicts d8s, particle inflicts d10s, etc.) and of certain range increments, etc.
Each weapon type is capable of unleashing a certain number of damage increments per shot (i.e., pistols inflict 1 damage increment, rifles inflict 2 damage increments, heavy weapons inflict 3 damage increments, etc. )
Technology level allows and/or prevents certain effects, bonuses, and/or penalties.
Device efficiency likewise allows and/or prevents certain effects, bonuses, and/or penalties.

So anybody wishing to create a new energy pistol would have to go through a specific process of deciding stuff like:
I have an Ion (d8) pistol (1d), so the base damage is 1d8 per shot.
I want the weapon to be capable of more damage than that, though.
Available technology level allows for Pulses, but that would be expensive, so I'll compromise and make the weapon burst (3 shots for x2 damage) capable.
So the damage is now 1d8 MD per shot, or 2d8 for a 3-round burst.
Ion beams have a standard range increment of 1000' (or whatever), and the fact that this is a pistol cuts that down to 500'. I'm going to further halve the range in order to double the damage per shot, so now the weapon inflicts 2d8 per shot, or 4d8 for a 3-round burst, but that also increases the power consumption so I get fewer shots per e-clip...

(And so on, and so forth.)

Not specifically the system that I tossed up there, but a similar kind of system, because when everything is made using standardized rules, you get standardized results, and readers/players aren't left wondering why a nation that has the best tech on the continent has some of the worst weapons, until a new book comes out and they have some of the best weapons, until a newer book comes out and they have some of the worst weapons again.
You don't get crap like the Laser Bow.
You don't get anomalies like the L-20.
You get a system of technology that makes sense.

And you do the same thing with magic, psionics, character class, character race, and so on.

I wouldn't want to go overboard with it (GURPS), just to make things standardized enough for the world to not only make sense, but to make consistent sense over time, and to reign in purposeless power creep.

So Palladium, for at LEAST internal use, needs to produce something like Mekton Zeta Plus?

However this, so far, makes sense for CS and the equivalent. The space colonies should have better. Aliens would most likely have much better but may also be stuck in the stone age. Magic would twist that all over the place.

[Svartalf]

What's wrong with power creep? The books by CJ Carella were full of it, and they are still the best stuff ever written for Rifts... of course, if you don't regulate at all, beyond a certain level you'd be better off playing Scion, but the problem is more keeping the players who want to play low power characters interested if there are hi pw players in the party.

[Killer Cyborg]

What's wrong with power creep? The books by CJ Carella were full of it, and they are still the best stuff ever written for Rifts...

Eh. Some of the stuff that CJ wrote is some of the best stuff written for Rifts... but some of the other stuff he wrote is some of the worst.
Any book by him was a very mixed bag.

And of the stuff he wrote that was GOOD, none of it was good because of the power levels presented--it was good because of the ideas behind it.

[Killer Cyborg]

So Palladium, for at LEAST internal use, needs to produce something like Mekton Zeta Plus?

I don't know what that is.

However this, so far, makes sense for CS and the equivalent. The space colonies should have better. Aliens would most likely have much better but may also be stuck in the stone age. Magic would twist that all over the place.

The space colonies would have better, because they'd have a higher technology level. Same with many aliens.
There should also be magic levels, for that matter.

[Svartalf]

What's wrong with power creep? The books by CJ Carella were full of it, and they are still the best stuff ever written for Rifts...

Eh. Some of the stuff that CJ wrote is some of the best stuff written for Rifts... but some of the other stuff he wrote is some of the worst.
Any book by him was a very mixed bag.

And of the stuff he wrote that was GOOD, none of it was good because of the power levels presented--it was good because of the ideas behind it.

What I meant is that the power level in the Phase World or South Amercia books did not detract from the quality of the work

[Killer Cyborg]

What's wrong with power creep? The books by CJ Carella were full of it, and they are still the best stuff ever written for Rifts...

Eh. Some of the stuff that CJ wrote is some of the best stuff written for Rifts... but some of the other stuff he wrote is some of the worst.
Any book by him was a very mixed bag.

And of the stuff he wrote that was GOOD, none of it was good because of the power levels presented--it was good because of the ideas behind it.

What I meant is that the power level in the Phase World or South Amercia books did not detract from the quality of the work

I can agree to that, but neither did it add to the quality of the work.
The work would be the same even if the power levels balanced better with North America.

[Svartalf]

Mekton Zeta Plus is a supplement for/version of the Mekton game with a very comprehensive and efficient system for creating mecha of literally all conceivable types. If it's been in an anime, Mekton Z+ can do it.

An equivalent system for creating robots, power armor and space ships would indeed be a great add on for rifts... and I don't like the AU:GG ship construction system, which may be excellent for HU, but less so for Rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mekton Zeta Plus is a supplement for/version of the Mekton game with a very comprehensive and efficient system for creating mecha of literally all conceivable types. If it's been in an anime, Mekton Z+ can do it.

An equivalent system for creating robots, power armor and space ships would indeed be a great add on for rifts... and I don't like the AU:GG ship construction system, which may be excellent for HU, but less so for Rifts.

[glitterboy2098]

even with a system to build your content, your still going to end up with powercreep. it'll just be in the "optimization" regime rather than the "power increase" regime. as the writers figure out how to game the system to get qualitative advantages using the right combinations of things within the construction rules.

ultimately the only way to avoid powercreep is to never expand your game beyond the initial core book.

Power creep. a curious game, the only way to win is not to play.

[Zer0 Kay]

Mekton Zeta Plus is a supplement for/version of the Mekton game with a very comprehensive and efficient system for creating mecha of literally all conceivable types. If it's been in an anime, Mekton Z+ can do it.

An equivalent system for creating robots, power armor and space ships would indeed be a great add on for rifts... and I don't like the AU:GG ship construction system, which may be excellent for HU, but less so for Rifts.

Not just Mecha my friend. Androids, Pistols Swords, Shields Armor, Gimmick Clothing. Tanks, trucks, jet fighters, animals, monsters, engineering humans or other life forms.

Not only would it be great for Rifts but it would be more than deserving of the title Hardware Unlimited: a megaversal sourcebook.

Edit: forgot it is also used to design psychic/magic/super... or whatever other source you may call it powers. So maybe it should just be The Megaverse Sourcebook or Megaverse Unlimited.

[Zer0 Kay]

even with a system to build your content, your still going to end up with powercreep. it'll just be in the "optimization" regime rather than the "power increase" regime. as the writers figure out how to game the system to get qualitative advantages using the right combinations of things within the construction rules.

ultimately the only way to avoid powercreep is to never expand your game beyond the initial core book.

Power creep. a curious game, the only way to win is not to play.

Is that going to matter? Do we not see that real world? M-16 vs. AK-74.
Or as a better example Cruiser vs. Littoral Combat Ship vs Destroyer vs. Frigate. Same displacement class very different "optimizations" to fulfill different roles.

Different role demand optimization.
One country... heck one corporation will optimize their weapons for values they prefer.

Wilk's light, fragile super accurate low damage, long range
NG heavy, and sturdy, (normally in mekton weight and damage capacity go hand in hand) standard accuracy, short to average range, higher damage.

Simply put with a point system it isn't power creep it is optimization. Kevin or someone else wold basically have to set limits
Pistol = 200 pts
Rifle = 600
Heavy weapon = 1000
Alien = +5-50% but receives an equivalent 5-50% "which end do I point at the target?"
Backwater = 50% but automatically gets easy maintenance (any weapon that has an explosive quality with this, also gets a 5% "where'd Bubba go" as it may have a catastrophic failure)

I do agree with what you say about power creep and not expanding the game. If someone complains about it they shouldn't use anything except the first book. As power creep should be present IF time progresses in the game or if stronger enemies are presented as the game progresses. Unless the original book has all the weapons and items for higher levels and stronger monsters to fight... well, your basically stuck playing with first level weapons. Unless new sourcebooks come out and if everything is in the first book there is no need for sourcebook only adventure books and they better not introduce any new obstacles that didn't have the means of of its defeat in the original book.

No Aragorn no submitting the Deadmen of Dunharrow that would be power creep, they weren't in the Hobbit. Just release them. But wait Gandalf the white... you experience point steeling whore.

[Blue_Lion]

Mekton Zeta Plus is a supplement for/version of the Mekton game with a very comprehensive and efficient system for creating mecha of literally all conceivable types. If it's been in an anime, Mekton Z+ can do it.

An equivalent system for creating robots, power armor and space ships would indeed be a great add on for rifts... and I don't like the AU:GG ship construction system, which may be excellent for HU, but less so for Rifts.

Not just Mecha my friend. Androids, Pistols Swords, Shields Armor, Gimmick Clothing. Tanks, trucks, jet fighters, animals, monsters, engineering humans or other life forms.

Not only would it be great for Rifts but it would be more than deserving of the title Hardware Unlimited: a megaversal sourcebook.

Edit: forgot it is also used to design psychic/magic/super... or whatever other source you may call it powers. So maybe it should just be The Megaverse Sourcebook or Megaverse Unlimited.

The problem I see is even if some one submitted a set of rules I think it would be unlikely to see press. And if it does would be at best a player guide not as much a writer. A second problem is to do such a thing right takes allot of time, and work. (I know I am in the middle of retyping and revising the house rules I use.) I am not sure it would be worth it to take PB staff of current projects, to have them create such a rule, and it could easily be done poorly.

[guardiandashi]

Mekton Zeta Plus is a supplement for/version of the Mekton game with a very comprehensive and efficient system for creating mecha of literally all conceivable types. If it's been in an anime, Mekton Z+ can do it.

An equivalent system for creating robots, power armor and space ships would indeed be a great add on for rifts... and I don't like the AU:GG ship construction system, which may be excellent for HU, but less so for Rifts.

Not just Mecha my friend. Androids, Pistols Swords, Shields Armor, Gimmick Clothing. Tanks, trucks, jet fighters, animals, monsters, engineering humans or other life forms.

Not only would it be great for Rifts but it would be more than deserving of the title Hardware Unlimited: a megaversal sourcebook.

Edit: forgot it is also used to design psychic/magic/super... or whatever other source you may call it powers. So maybe it should just be The Megaverse Sourcebook or Megaverse Unlimited.

The problem I see is even if some one submitted a set of rules I think it would be unlikely to see press. And if it does would be at best a player guide not as much a writer. A second problem is to do such a thing right takes allot of time, and work. (I know I am in the middle of retyping and revising the house rules I use.) I am not sure it would be worth it to take PB staff of current projects, to have them create such a rule, and it could easily be done poorly.

to be honest I would say the ship has long since sailed on the gear stats guide for rifts.
the guidelines for something like that should be created before, or concurrently with the initial development of the game. it should IMO be a fundamental aspect of the base development.

I prefer rather than giving hard "numbers" for weapons like pistols never do more than 1d or use D4 I much prefer a "weapon builder" that says pistols are typically up to x points with points being based on things like:
x points for ballistic ammo
x points for energy weapons
y points for damage die d4 is cheaper than d6 d8 is more etc.
y points for dice numbers
z points for accuracy level
z points for range brackets
A points for tech level
B points for "size" to use a star trek example the "mini phaser" has a different cost level than a hand or rifle phaser.

obviously anything like this is going to be rather involved, and fair amount should be either guidelines because writers can "push" the limits if they choose, but they should have to "justify" outliers

[say652]

I limit the initial books to Rifts Earth stuff.

[Blue_Lion]

Mekton Zeta Plus is a supplement for/version of the Mekton game with a very comprehensive and efficient system for creating mecha of literally all conceivable types. If it's been in an anime, Mekton Z+ can do it.

An equivalent system for creating robots, power armor and space ships would indeed be a great add on for rifts... and I don't like the AU:GG ship construction system, which may be excellent for HU, but less so for Rifts.

Not just Mecha my friend. Androids, Pistols Swords, Shields Armor, Gimmick Clothing. Tanks, trucks, jet fighters, animals, monsters, engineering humans or other life forms.

Not only would it be great for Rifts but it would be more than deserving of the title Hardware Unlimited: a megaversal sourcebook.

Edit: forgot it is also used to design psychic/magic/super... or whatever other source you may call it powers. So maybe it should just be The Megaverse Sourcebook or Megaverse Unlimited.

The problem I see is even if some one submitted a set of rules I think it would be unlikely to see press. And if it does would be at best a player guide not as much a writer. A second problem is to do such a thing right takes allot of time, and work. (I know I am in the middle of retyping and revising the house rules I use.) I am not sure it would be worth it to take PB staff of current projects, to have them create such a rule, and it could easily be done poorly.

to be honest I would say the ship has long since sailed on the gear stats guide for rifts.
the guidelines for something like that should be created before, or concurrently with the initial development of the game. it should IMO be a fundamental aspect of the base development.

I prefer rather than giving hard "numbers" for weapons like pistols never do more than 1d or use D4 I much prefer a "weapon builder" that says pistols are typically up to x points with points being based on things like:
x points for ballistic ammo
x points for energy weapons
y points for damage die d4 is cheaper than d6 d8 is more etc.
y points for dice numbers
z points for accuracy level
z points for range brackets
A points for tech level
B points for "size" to use a star trek example the "mini phaser" has a different cost level than a hand or rifle phaser.

obviously anything like this is going to be rather involved, and fair amount should be either guidelines because writers can "push" the limits if they choose, but they should have to "justify" outliers

Point systems are typically designed for player made creations than game makers. It would be bad if every writer had to sit down and do math for every thing. You would see fewer and fewer new peace's of gear. (point systems encourage optimization version of power creep leading to everything taking the same build.)

I tend to prefer a base then mod approach to weapon creation.
IE
Light laser pistol does 1d6 MD and has a range of 500' typical base price of x.
Heavy laser pistol does 2d6 MD and has a range of 500' tyical base price of x.

Adding blue green cost adds x to the price
Pulse adds x to the price
Variable adds x to the price
built in power storage unit/battery adds x to the price
Accuracy adds x the price (limited by grade of manufacture)
Improve range adds x to the price
Rail system adds x to the to price
built in laser sight adds x to price
extra e-clip port adds x to the price
No eclip port
(You can also set what manufacturing grade does such as modifies range or MD, or limit positive mods)

You can also have negative qualities to add flavor or show low grade weapons.(or reduce cost)
Reduce range
Poor accuracy
heavy
inefficient.(use double energy)
fragile
Gremlins/breaks down.

This also leads to better made weapons costing more and if some one wanted they could waste lots of money on features that may not apply in most situations.
Note not all use of x has the same value it was just to represent a undefined value in the post. Ones with the most desired affect pulse and accuracy will likely cost more and could even be limited to advanced manufactures.(pulse rifles would be easer to make than pistols.)

[eliakon]

the biggest way to prevent power creep is to make sure that the writers understand that this isn't Bleach or Dragon Ball where every new book has to top the last one.
There have been a few spectacular "what the heck" moments (Phase world's Silver Hawk Power Armor comes to mind).
Most of the stuff in Phase World isn't really that far out of line with the normal Rifts continuity. And the stuff that is... well it IS a fully functioning ultra tech society that has had the current cycle of civilization for around 10,000 years. They should be a bit better than a post apocalypse world that had barely discovered MDC before nuking itself. Its just the outliers that make you go what the heck is this. And since they are official they tend to get gleefully pounced on by both sides. The power enthusiasts of all stripes who adore the outré stats, and the people who point to them as the worst examples of power creep.

[Zer0 Kay]

Mekton Zeta Plus is a supplement for/version of the Mekton game with a very comprehensive and efficient system for creating mecha of literally all conceivable types. If it's been in an anime, Mekton Z+ can do it.

An equivalent system for creating robots, power armor and space ships would indeed be a great add on for rifts... and I don't like the AU:GG ship construction system, which may be excellent for HU, but less so for Rifts.

Not just Mecha my friend. Androids, Pistols Swords, Shields Armor, Gimmick Clothing. Tanks, trucks, jet fighters, animals, monsters, engineering humans or other life forms.

Not only would it be great for Rifts but it would be more than deserving of the title Hardware Unlimited: a megaversal sourcebook.

Edit: forgot it is also used to design psychic/magic/super... or whatever other source you may call it powers. So maybe it should just be The Megaverse Sourcebook or Megaverse Unlimited.

The problem I see is even if some one submitted a set of rules I think it would be unlikely to see press. And if it does would be at best a player guide not as much a writer. A second problem is to do such a thing right takes allot of time, and work. (I know I am in the middle of retyping and revising the house rules I use.) I am not sure it would be worth it to take PB staff of current projects, to have them create such a rule, and it could easily be done poorly.

to be honest I would say the ship has long since sailed on the gear stats guide for rifts.
the guidelines for something like that should be created before, or concurrently with the initial development of the game. it should IMO be a fundamental aspect of the base development.

I prefer rather than giving hard "numbers" for weapons like pistols never do more than 1d or use D4 I much prefer a "weapon builder" that says pistols are typically up to x points with points being based on things like:
x points for ballistic ammo
x points for energy weapons
y points for damage die d4 is cheaper than d6 d8 is more etc.
y points for dice numbers
z points for accuracy level
z points for range brackets
A points for tech level
B points for "size" to use a star trek example the "mini phaser" has a different cost level than a hand or rifle phaser.

obviously anything like this is going to be rather involved, and fair amount should be either guidelines because writers can "push" the limits if they choose, but they should have to "justify" outliers

Point systems are typically designed for player made creations than game makers. It would be bad if every writer had to sit down and do math for every thing. You would see fewer and fewer new peace's of gear. (point systems encourage optimization version of power creep leading to everything taking the same build.)

I tend to prefer a base then mod approach to weapon creation.
IE
Light laser pistol does 1d6 MD and has a range of 500' typical base price of x.
Heavy laser pistol does 2d6 MD and has a range of 500' tyical base price of x.

Adding blue green cost adds x to the price
Pulse adds x to the price
Variable adds x to the price
built in power storage unit/battery adds x to the price
Accuracy adds x the price (limited by grade of manufacture)
Improve range adds x to the price
Rail system adds x to the to price
built in laser sight adds x to price
extra e-clip port adds x to the price
No eclip port
(You can also set what manufacturing grade does such as modifies range or MD, or limit positive mods)

You can also have negative qualities to add flavor or show low grade weapons.(or reduce cost)
Reduce range
Poor accuracy
heavy
inefficient.(use double energy)
fragile
Gremlins/breaks down.

This also leads to better made weapons costing more and if some one wanted they could waste lots of money on features that may not apply in most situations.
Note not all use of x has the same value it was just to represent a undefined value in the post. Ones with the most desired affect pulse and accuracy will likely cost more and could even be limited to advanced manufactures.(pulse rifles would be easer to make than pistols.)

Already suggested that. Mekton Zeta Plus

[Blue_Lion]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

[Zer0 Kay]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

They couldn't copy it. It wouldn't work with Palladium. Mekton, or rather the entire fuzion system is too different. They could do a comprehensive system that would allow the same design flexibility but setting rules for techno wizards, N&S gizmo teens and HU: hardware heroes and other craft type characters to do what they're supposed to within a set of non ambiguous suggestions.

[eliakon]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

They couldn't copy it. It wouldn't work with Palladium. Mekton, or rather the entire fuzion system is too different. They could do a comprehensive system that would allow the same design flexibility but setting rules for techno wizards, N&S gizmo teens and HU: hardware heroes and other craft type characters to do what they're supposed to within a set of non ambiguous suggestions.

Considering how the TW rules turned out though...
I don't think that would work out to well.
Unless this is a part of the "if we were rewriting the entire system from the ground up how would we do it"
Which is basically not viable as it would invalidate all the books in print and pretty much alienate the entire customer base.

[Killer Cyborg]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

They couldn't copy it. It wouldn't work with Palladium. Mekton, or rather the entire fuzion system is too different. They could do a comprehensive system that would allow the same design flexibility but setting rules for techno wizards, N&S gizmo teens and HU: hardware heroes and other craft type characters to do what they're supposed to within a set of non ambiguous suggestions.

Considering how the TW rules turned out though...
I don't think that would work out to well.
Unless this is a part of the "if we were rewriting the entire system from the ground up how would we do it"
Which is basically not viable as it would invalidate all the books in print and pretty much alienate the entire customer base.

Once every thirty years or so, it's okay to do that sort of thing.

[eliakon]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

They couldn't copy it. It wouldn't work with Palladium. Mekton, or rather the entire fuzion system is too different. They could do a comprehensive system that would allow the same design flexibility but setting rules for techno wizards, N&S gizmo teens and HU: hardware heroes and other craft type characters to do what they're supposed to within a set of non ambiguous suggestions.

Considering how the TW rules turned out though...
I don't think that would work out to well.
Unless this is a part of the "if we were rewriting the entire system from the ground up how would we do it"
Which is basically not viable as it would invalidate all the books in print and pretty much alienate the entire customer base.

Once every thirty years or so, it's okay to do that sort of thing.

Maybe.
I would be really upset though.
I have invested a lot of money in buying the books. If I suddenly have to invest a few thousand dollars to rebuy the entire universe again...
Well there is a reason I don't play pathfinder.

[Killer Cyborg]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

They couldn't copy it. It wouldn't work with Palladium. Mekton, or rather the entire fuzion system is too different. They could do a comprehensive system that would allow the same design flexibility but setting rules for techno wizards, N&S gizmo teens and HU: hardware heroes and other craft type characters to do what they're supposed to within a set of non ambiguous suggestions.

Considering how the TW rules turned out though...
I don't think that would work out to well.
Unless this is a part of the "if we were rewriting the entire system from the ground up how would we do it"
Which is basically not viable as it would invalidate all the books in print and pretty much alienate the entire customer base.

Once every thirty years or so, it's okay to do that sort of thing.

Maybe.
I would be really upset though.
I have invested a lot of money in buying the books. If I suddenly have to invest a few thousand dollars to rebuy the entire universe again...
Well there is a reason I don't play pathfinder.

I'd be upset too. I have decades worth of obscure rules knowledge that would be made all but obsolete.
BUT if they could make a strong, coherent system that retained the feel, that'd still be the right move.
There's a reason why I don't play Pathfinder as well, but there's also a reason why D&D 3.x got me playing that particular game again, after 2.0 chased me away with bad rules and clunkiness.

[Blue_Lion]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

They couldn't copy it. It wouldn't work with Palladium. Mekton, or rather the entire fuzion system is too different. They could do a comprehensive system that would allow the same design flexibility but setting rules for techno wizards, N&S gizmo teens and HU: hardware heroes and other craft type characters to do what they're supposed to within a set of non ambiguous suggestions.

Considering how the TW rules turned out though...
I don't think that would work out to well.
Unless this is a part of the "if we were rewriting the entire system from the ground up how would we do it"
Which is basically not viable as it would invalidate all the books in print and pretty much alienate the entire customer base.

TW guide lines the rules are called a guide line not rules.
Personally I do not use them they do not cover all uses of TW.

[Zer0 Kay]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

They couldn't copy it. It wouldn't work with Palladium. Mekton, or rather the entire fuzion system is too different. They could do a comprehensive system that would allow the same design flexibility but setting rules for techno wizards, N&S gizmo teens and HU: hardware heroes and other craft type characters to do what they're supposed to within a set of non ambiguous suggestions.

Considering how the TW rules turned out though...
I don't think that would work out to well.
Unless this is a part of the "if we were rewriting the entire system from the ground up how would we do it"
Which is basically not viable as it would invalidate all the books in print and pretty much alienate the entire customer base.

TW guide lines the rules are called a guide line not rules.
Personally I do not use them they do not cover all uses of TW.

I always see the stuff like that more like inspirational examples.

[flatline]

When the GM said "ignore the listed damage, we use a qualitative damage system rather than quantitative damage system", power creep, at least for weapons, disappeared. It was replaced by GM fiat. Weapon preference became dominated by flavor text and in-game knowledge of comparative weapon performance rather than numbers printed in a stat block.

And there was much rejoicing.

Seriously, it's liberating.

Edit: for anyone interested, the damage scale was as follows:
None
Cosmetic
Impaired
Disabled
Destroyed

For all practical purposes, cosmetic damage was the same as none. The two classes existed to convey the difference between immune to the damage vs the damage being too insignificant to be worth tracking.

Enough impairing damage and the target becomes disabled. Enough disabling damage and the target eventually becomes destroyed. GM's call.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

Honesty I have no idea what Mekton zeta pluss game is, so other than you saying copy some one else IP I had no idea what you where talking about. Did not fill it was worth looking up.
PB is does seam less about copping what others are doing and more about doing things there own way.

They couldn't copy it. It wouldn't work with Palladium. Mekton, or rather the entire fuzion system is too different. They could do a comprehensive system that would allow the same design flexibility but setting rules for techno wizards, N&S gizmo teens and HU: hardware heroes and other craft type characters to do what they're supposed to within a set of non ambiguous suggestions.

Considering how the TW rules turned out though...
I don't think that would work out to well.
Unless this is a part of the "if we were rewriting the entire system from the ground up how would we do it"
Which is basically not viable as it would invalidate all the books in print and pretty much alienate the entire customer base.

TW guide lines the rules are called a guide line not rules.
Personally I do not use them they do not cover all uses of TW.

I always see the stuff like that more like inspirational examples.

Personally I use hose rules that let you do different types of TW devices most of which are not covered by the guidelines in rue. such as converting engines to run on PPE but the rules are much longer and would be hard to fit in a book. ( I use think I use 6 or seven types of TW devices, only 2 are covered by the TW guidelines in rue.)