Variable Robot Piloting Questions

[Sambot]

There's the Kittani K-ATV-RV Hover Jet, K-GTRV Hover Land Skimmer, K-TRF-M Fighter Robot, Triax X-6000 Transformable Sub, BAW-09 Walker-Bike and probably a couple more I'm forgetting. I've never seen a Variable Robot Skill outside of Robotech/Macross though. Robotech has Various Pilot Veritech skills and Macross has the Robot Combat & Flying Skill. Why was there never a Variable Robot Skill for Rifts? Beyond that they're pretty rare? Is it that Robot Pilot Training is so much better that the character can operate the unit as long as they have the matching vehicle skill? An example being Pilot: Motorcyle for the Walker-Bike. What happens if they come across a Robotech/Macross counterpart? Could this character also pilot a Cyclone with no problems? Other than a penalty for piloting the unfamiliar vehicle? Would it work the other way as well with a Cyclone Rider being able to operate a Walker-Bike?

Thanks

PS
Which Variable Robots did I miss?

[Tiree]

There's the Kittani K-ATV-RV Hover Jet, K-GTRV Hover Land Skimmer, K-TRF-M Fighter Robot, Triax X-6000 Transformable Sub, BAW-09 Walker-Bike and probably a couple more I'm forgetting. I've never seen a Variable Robot Skill outside of Robotech/Macross though. Robotech has Various Pilot Veritech skills and Macross has the Robot Combat & Flying Skill. Why was there never a Variable Robot Skill for Rifts? Beyond that they're pretty rare? Is it that Robot Pilot Training is so much better that the character can operate the unit as long as they have the matching vehicle skill? An example being Pilot: Motorcyle for the Walker-Bike. What happens if they come across a Robotech/Macross counterpart? Could this character also pilot a Cyclone with no problems? Other than a penalty for piloting the unfamiliar vehicle? Would it work the other way as well with a Cyclone Rider being able to operate a Walker-Bike?

Thanks

PS
Which Variable Robots did I miss?

Actually in Robotech, they made things much easier. You get the full combat abilities of the character, plus anything special from the vehicle itself, even though you don't have a Mecha Combat Skill. Mecha Combat Basic is non-existent in the new Robotech ruleset. So I wouldn't see a problem with a character who may have had the appropriate vehicle skill can use it. And if they have the Pilot Battloid or Power Armor, they can transform and use the vehicle as well.

What they can't do is become experts (IE Mecha Combat Elite) in a Robotech variable mecha (unless the GM Allows it, because the skill doesn't exist in RUE - unless you port that as well with the mecha).

[guardiandashi]

There's the Kittani K-ATV-RV Hover Jet, K-GTRV Hover Land Skimmer, K-TRF-M Fighter Robot, Triax X-6000 Transformable Sub, BAW-09 Walker-Bike and probably a couple more I'm forgetting. I've never seen a Variable Robot Skill outside of Robotech/Macross though. Robotech has Various Pilot Veritech skills and Macross has the Robot Combat & Flying Skill. Why was there never a Variable Robot Skill for Rifts? Beyond that they're pretty rare? Is it that Robot Pilot Training is so much better that the character can operate the unit as long as they have the matching vehicle skill? An example being Pilot: Motorcyle for the Walker-Bike. What happens if they come across a Robotech/Macross counterpart? Could this character also pilot a Cyclone with no problems? Other than a penalty for piloting the unfamiliar vehicle? Would it work the other way as well with a Cyclone Rider being able to operate a Walker-Bike?

Thanks

PS
Which Variable Robots did I miss?

as I understand it, as long as you have the appropriate skills for each mode of the unit then you don't really need the variable robot skill. With that said part of the reason Robotech, and Macross would have it is to the sheer numbers of variable designs they have, so in some ways its a "catch all" skill but it could also be looked at as additional specialized training to get the most out of the variable units.

lets look at the original valkeries (or veritech fighters) for a moment they have 3 modes, 1 a "jet" fighter, 2 the hybrid mode (sort of a helicopter but not) and the battloid or soldier mode which is a "giant robot" obviously each mode has things it does best, like the jet mode is the fastest. the hybrid mode is slower but in some ways arguably a jet fighter with arms and legs, but also has vtol capabilities. the battloid mode is essentially a giant soldier, that can walk, run, pick up things etc.

one thing that wouldmight throw most people for a loop with the "next generation veritechs" like the cyclone, is that the units transformation system isn't fully automated, the operator has to "think it through" and help the unit transform correctly otherwise you get things like Rand's failed transformation where the motor cycle folded away the front wheel, but didn't fully connect to the armor.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There's the Kittani K-ATV-RV Hover Jet, K-GTRV Hover Land Skimmer, K-TRF-M Fighter Robot, Triax X-6000 Transformable Sub, BAW-09 Walker-Bike and probably a couple more I'm forgetting. I've never seen a Variable Robot Skill outside of Robotech/Macross though. Robotech has Various Pilot Veritech skills and Macross has the Robot Combat & Flying Skill.
✦1 Why was there never a Variable Robot Skill for Rifts? Beyond that they're pretty rare?
✦2 Is it that Robot Pilot Training is so much better that the character can operate the unit as long as they have the matching vehicle skill?
✦3 An example being Pilot: Motorcycle for the Walker-Bike. What happens if they come across a Robotech/Macross counterpart?
✦4 Could this character also pilot a Cyclone with no problems? Other than a penalty for piloting the unfamiliar vehicle?
✦5 Would it work the other way as well with a Cyclone Rider being able to operate a Walker-Bike?

Thanks

PS
Which Variable Robots did I miss?

1: Rifts does not need one. The Chars would just have the skills of each form to pilot the transformable mecha.
2:There is that the Pilot VT skills are pretty specific to the Robotech franchise due to IP stuff and PB has already stated somewhere that they don't want to get anywhere close to a IP lawyering with HG.
Even in the RTSC the marine MOS has both cyclone and motorcycle piloting skills.
3&4: Just looking at the artwork you can tell that that walker-bike is a robot and not a PA when transformed. And that the pilot is still sitting on it like a motorcycle. While some GM would let a char get away with letting a char pilot it with just the pilot motorcycle skill, others would not.
I for one would not give the char any of the robot combat bonuses.

Newb using a cyclone for the 1st time would not know how to 'get it off' or access any of the weapons without someone to teach them how. Yah, they could get it on with monkey see monkey do learning, (put on the armor and flip that switch) but most everything else there are no buttons except for some with triggers.
(had this happen to a char of mine.)

4: in conclusion 'no'.

5: the other way around, no problem. It's just a motorcycle bot.

[glitterboy2098]

There's the Kittani K-ATV-RV Hover Jet, K-GTRV Hover Land Skimmer, K-TRF-M Fighter Robot, Triax X-6000 Transformable Sub, BAW-09 Walker-Bike and probably a couple more I'm forgetting. I've never seen a Variable Robot Skill outside of Robotech/Macross though. Robotech has Various Pilot Veritech skills and Macross has the Robot Combat & Flying Skill. Why was there never a Variable Robot Skill for Rifts? Beyond that they're pretty rare? Is it that Robot Pilot Training is so much better that the character can operate the unit as long as they have the matching vehicle skill? An example being Pilot: Motorcyle for the Walker-Bike. What happens if they come across a Robotech/Macross counterpart? Could this character also pilot a Cyclone with no problems? Other than a penalty for piloting the unfamiliar vehicle? Would it work the other way as well with a Cyclone Rider being able to operate a Walker-Bike?

Thanks

PS
Which Variable Robots did I miss?

Actually in Robotech, they made things much easier. You get the full combat abilities of the character, plus anything special from the vehicle itself, even though you don't have a Mecha Combat Skill. Mecha Combat Basic is non-existent in the new Robotech ruleset. So I wouldn't see a problem with a character who may have had the appropriate vehicle skill can use it. And if they have the Pilot Battloid or Power Armor, they can transform and use the vehicle as well.

What they can't do is become experts (IE Mecha Combat Elite) in a Robotech variable mecha (unless the GM Allows it, because the skill doesn't exist in RUE - unless you port that as well with the mecha).

incorrect. in robotech, unless you have the appropriate MECT skill you don't get the extra bonuses. (just like you need the Robot Combat skill in rifts to get the bonuses, robotech is just vehicle specific rather than the general skill in rifts.)

just like in rifts if you don't have the appropriate combat skills you just get your HTH attacks and the bonuses from WP's.

[Supergyro]

Well if you really want to make yourself crazy, look at robots with crews of 2 or 3 and try to understand exactly how that would work in the Palladium system..

Does the robot have the combined attacks per melee of all crew members? Does the pilot do melee while the gunner does the guns? Are some guns pilot operated while some are gunner operated? Whose bonuses are used for a dodge/parry? When a robot's crew is described as 'one or two', how does it differ when the crew is one versus when the crew is two? What does the communications guy do? How about the technical officers when they are present?

[Sambot]

Actually in Robotech, they made things much easier. You get the full combat abilities of the character, plus anything special from the vehicle itself, even though you don't have a Mecha Combat Skill. Mecha Combat Basic is non-existent in the new Robotech ruleset. So I wouldn't see a problem with a character who may have had the appropriate vehicle skill can use it. And if they have the Pilot Battloid or Power Armor, they can transform and use the vehicle as well.

What they can't do is become experts (IE Mecha Combat Elite) in a Robotech variable mecha (unless the GM Allows it, because the skill doesn't exist in RUE - unless you port that as well with the mecha).

If a Battloid Pilot can transform it why couldn't they transform their own military's Veritechs?

Wouldn't the Robot Combat Elite be an equivalent of Mecha Combat Elite? With a skill penalty for unknown mecha/robots?

as I understand it, as long as you have the appropriate skills for each mode of the unit then you don't really need the variable robot skill. With that said part of the reason Robotech, and Macross would have it is to the sheer numbers of variable designs they have, so in some ways its a "catch all" skill but it could also be looked at as additional specialized training to get the most out of the variable units.

lets look at the original valkeries (or veritech fighters) for a moment they have 3 modes, 1 a "jet" fighter, 2 the hybrid mode (sort of a helicopter but not) and the battloid or soldier mode which is a "giant robot" obviously each mode has things it does best, like the jet mode is the fastest. the hybrid mode is slower but in some ways arguably a jet fighter with arms and legs, but also has vtol capabilities. the battloid mode is essentially a giant soldier, that can walk, run, pick up things etc.

one thing that wouldmight throw most people for a loop with the "next generation veritechs" like the cyclone, is that the units transformation system isn't fully automated, the operator has to "think it through" and help the unit transform correctly otherwise you get things like Rand's failed transformation where the motor cycle folded away the front wheel, but didn't fully connect to the armor.

That makes sense except of course it's there in Robotech. And if a mass produced unit requires specialization wouldn't a rare unit also be specialized? That's what's confused me about this for so long. I have been going with just vehicle skill and robot to operate them with the cross over characters being able to operate their equivalent with the usual skill penalty. It just seem odd that a Variable Robots Skill is missing when we get skills for Combat Pods and things I would have put under Fighter or Hover Vehicle.

Wouldn't the Cyclone's transformation system be part of the skill penalty? (Although I thought all Robotech Mecha had to be thought things or are Thinking Caps no longer a thing?)

[drewkitty ~..~]

Multiple crewed bots would be crewed by a team with each crew member having a task.
Sort of like how modern tanks are crewed.

The pilot would control movement (and maybe one weapon) and the gunners and commander would have the weapons under their control.
----------------------------------
The Battloid Pilot class and the Veritech pilot class are two different classes. The UEDF, the UEEF, and the ASC all have non-transformable battloids. With pilots that specialize in piloting them.

Only the VT pilots, pilot VTs (w/distinctions between flown and ground VT pilots).

They are equivalent in that they give about the same bonuses to two different types of mecha. But not the same. Sort of like Men and Women are equivalently both human, but are different.

Knowing in theory about the other is not actually knowing the other.

Remember that an Combat Elite skill is only elite for one type of bot or PA or mecha.

Remember there is a distinction between Piloting and Combat skills.
-------------------
RT mecha and Rifts mecha skills do not translate to the other setting.

[Sambot]

1: Rifts does not need one. The Chars would just have the skills of each form to pilot the transformable mecha.
2:There is that the Pilot VT skills are pretty specific to the Robotech franchise due to IP stuff and PB has already stated somewhere that they don't want to get anywhere close to a IP lawyering with HG.
Even in the RTSC the marine MOS has both cyclone and motorcycle piloting skills.
3&4: Just looking at the artwork you can tell that that walker-bike is a robot and not a PA when transformed. And that the pilot is still sitting on it like a motorcycle. While some GM would let a char get away with letting a char pilot it with just the pilot motorcycle skill, others would not.
I for one would not give the char any of the robot combat bonuses.

Newb using a cyclone for the 1st time would not know how to 'get it off' or access any of the weapons without someone to teach them how. Yah, they could get it on with monkey see monkey do learning, (put on the armor and flip that switch) but most everything else there are no buttons except for some with triggers.
(had this happen to a char of mine.)

4: in conclusion 'no'.

5: the other way around, no problem. It's just a motorcycle bot.

1. That what I wondered.
2. Piloted Variable Vehicles are not unique to Robotech. Veritechs though are. That's why Macross II has the uses the Rifts Robots and Power Armor skills and the Robot Combat & Flying: VF Valkyries skill instead of Destroids and Veritechs.
Makes sense that they'd start with motorcycles and then go to cyclones.
3&4 the Walker Bike would be a Robot and since Rifts lumps Power Armor and Robots together in the same skill A Rifts character should be able to pilot a Cyclone
5 A Cyclone Rider though I would think would have a problem since the Walker Bike isn't a Power Armor. Then again the Conversion book says that they'd get the skill so I guess they'd be able to operate it with the 10% penalty. But then they'd also be able to pilot Spider Skull Walkers and things so...yeah I'm still confused.

[drewkitty ~..~]

2:in Anime, no there are not unique…..in american TV yes they pretty much are. (note I am not using absolute terms for the 2nd part.)

3 Yes, the Bot & PA skills are listed in the same text section but the way they read shows that is just a space saving item and they are separate skills.

pilot a cyclone in motorcycle mode, yes. know how to pilot it as a PA not without being taught or experimenting with it to self-teach, No. ((Read my words. Here, I am saying exactly what I mean, w/o any looseness in the word meanings.))

Cyclone pilots would have it worlds easier with the bot-bike in bot mode, then motorcycle riders would have with cyclones in PA mode. & w/o the proper armor they would not be able to transform any cyclone into PA mode.

[Blue_Lion]

Well if you really want to make yourself crazy, look at robots with crews of 2 or 3 and try to understand exactly how that would work in the Palladium system..

1 Does the robot have the combined attacks per melee of all crew members?
2 Does the pilot do melee while the gunner does the guns?
3 Are some guns pilot operated while some are gunner operated?
4 Whose bonuses are used for a dodge/parry?
5 When a robot's crew is described as 'one or two', how does it differ when the crew is one versus when the crew is two?
6 What does the communications guy do?
7 How about the technical officers when they are present?

1 A robot vehicle typically has no attacks on its own, its crew however like all vehicles have all theirs and can use the attacks they have with what ever weapon or systems they have access to.

2 The pilot controls movement/mellee and any weapon listed as used by the pilot, gunner is limited to only weapons listed as for gunner.

3 If you read the description of a robot description it tells you who uses which weapon in multi person crew vehicles.(Reduntant question)

4 The pilot controls movement so you would use his dodge or parry; this leaves gunners free to devote all their actions to weapon attacks.

5 when a crew is one you have just a pilot and only his attacks, with two he has some one to serve as a gunner, or coms officer.

6 Communications members typically focus on maintaining communications (self explanatory) coordinate attacks with other units, call for fire(call for artillery use skill forward observer), request reinforcements they may also run sensors or counter jamming measures. It is a command and control spot typically not direct combat.

7 a technical officer is a specialist in a certain technical field, such as sensors, ECM, repair, a requirement for a technical officer means the unit has some advanced technical system that requires a dedicated specialist.

Note this is basically true of all vehicles, however to parry or use melee attacks the unit must have the ability to do so.

[glitterboy2098]

Actually in Robotech, they made things much easier. You get the full combat abilities of the character, plus anything special from the vehicle itself, even though you don't have a Mecha Combat Skill. Mecha Combat Basic is non-existent in the new Robotech ruleset. So I wouldn't see a problem with a character who may have had the appropriate vehicle skill can use it. And if they have the Pilot Battloid or Power Armor, they can transform and use the vehicle as well.

What they can't do is become experts (IE Mecha Combat Elite) in a Robotech variable mecha (unless the GM Allows it, because the skill doesn't exist in RUE - unless you port that as well with the mecha).

If a Battloid Pilot can transform it why couldn't they transform their own military's Veritechs?

Wouldn't the Robot Combat Elite be an equivalent of Mecha Combat Elite? With a skill penalty for unknown mecha/robots?

as i pointed out earlier, Tiree is incorrect on many points.
in rifts robot piloting works as follows:
the Pilot RPA skill allows you to pilot any form of robot or PA
the Robot/PA combat skills grant you bonuses over your HTH if you have them.
the combat skills come in basic and Elite forms, so you have 4 versions (5 if you count the glitterboy specific elite)

these 6 skills give you the ability to use any rifts robot or PA, regardless of who built it or type.

in robotech you have 3 piloting skills that apply.
Pilot Battloids allows you to pilot non-transforming mecha like destroids, battloids, and RAW, the ASC power armor.
Pilot Ground veritechs allows you to pilot any non-aircraft transforming mecha, like hovertanks, silverbacks, and cyclones.
Pilot Veritech covers all transforming mecha, such as VF-1's, alpha's, beta's, Logans, Ajax, hovertanks, cyclones, silverback, etc..
the reason for the two different skills and their overlap is to prevent the cyclone riders and other ground troops from automatically gaining the ability to fly a veritech aircraft.

Combat is via the MECT (mecha elite combat training), which is vehicle specific. so if you want to have the combat bonuses for both the Alpha and a Saber cyclone you have to spend 2 skills to get them. but that means you don't get the bonuses with say, the VF-1 or Hovertank.


basically robotech is a more specific skill set system when it comes to mecha. while in rifts the skills set is more generic. this is to make the robotech RPG fit the show more closely, since we have examples in the show where pilots need retraining to use the different mecha.

as I understand it, as long as you have the appropriate skills for each mode of the unit then you don't really need the variable robot skill. With that said part of the reason Robotech, and Macross would have it is to the sheer numbers of variable designs they have, so in some ways its a "catch all" skill but it could also be looked at as additional specialized training to get the most out of the variable units.

lets look at the original valkeries (or veritech fighters) for a moment they have 3 modes, 1 a "jet" fighter, 2 the hybrid mode (sort of a helicopter but not) and the battloid or soldier mode which is a "giant robot" obviously each mode has things it does best, like the jet mode is the fastest. the hybrid mode is slower but in some ways arguably a jet fighter with arms and legs, but also has vtol capabilities. the battloid mode is essentially a giant soldier, that can walk, run, pick up things etc.

one thing that wouldmight throw most people for a loop with the "next generation veritechs" like the cyclone, is that the units transformation system isn't fully automated, the operator has to "think it through" and help the unit transform correctly otherwise you get things like Rand's failed transformation where the motor cycle folded away the front wheel, but didn't fully connect to the armor.

That makes sense except of course it's there in Robotech. And if a mass produced unit requires specialization wouldn't a rare unit also be specialized? That's what's confused me about this for so long. I have been going with just vehicle skill and robot to operate them with the cross over characters being able to operate their equivalent with the usual skill penalty. It just seem odd that a Variable Robots Skill is missing when we get skills for Combat Pods and things I would have put under Fighter or Hover Vehicle.

Wouldn't the Cyclone's transformation system be part of the skill penalty? (Although I thought all Robotech Mecha had to be thought things or are Thinking Caps no longer a thing?)

rifts does not have official rules for transforming vehicles, so it is up to the GM. guardiandashi is presenting his own views on how this system should work. which is where the disconnect is comign from. (this is a common issue on the boards.. many posters use houserules and forget they aren't the official ones.)

Rifts originally did not have transforming vehicles, and the handful of ones we have now are more the exception than the rule when considered as part of the mass of robots and PA in the gamel ine. so there hasn't been much call for a robotech like specialized skill system.

in robotech, since so many of their vehicles are transforming, it is just assumed the Veritech skills would include enough of the vehicle mode piloting training that it is all in one skill.

you have two main options as far as handling the issue in rifts.
the first is to treat the alternate mode as using the appropriate vehicle piloting skill, which would require your character to have both the RPA piloting skill and whatever vehicle piloting skill is needed.

the other is to just assume the RPA piloting skill covers the alternate modes as well, and not worry about it.

ultimately it comes down to how you prefer to run things in your game.

and the combat pods thing is a bit of an artifact of the fact Rifts relies on freelancers so much.. some freelancers are "splitters" when it comes to crating new skills, with any new area of need getting new skills. others are 'lumpers' that tend to assume an existing skill would cover it.
the first combat pod vehicle was written by a freelancer that believed a new skill was needed, and so that skill was provided in that book. when you are right, it probably should have just fell under hover vehicle.

also, ignore everything he says about "thinking it through". that has never been part of the official robotech. even under the old canon.

in the robotech novel series, which was written with a lot of deviation from the show's setting and plot, and without much oversight on the part of HG, the concept of a helmet that read thoughts was introduced, which contradicted multiple points of the actual dialog of the show. this is where the "think it through" stuff comes from. in the novels, you barely used controls, you had to mentally visualize practically everything, including transforming. and blaming Rand's inability to transform his cyclone on that is utter stupid, since the real issue is that the cyclone requires special body armor toswitch in armor mode.. and Rand didn't have it.


and IMHO the walker bike probably just falls under "pilot: motorcycle" since it really isn't much of a "robot." it wouldn't be hard to program the thing to react to motorcycle type controls and balance. it just walks rather than rolls at times. you'd need a computer translating your directional instructions into the walking motion anyway, so programming it to use the same controls and piloting set up as the bike part wouldn't be too much more difficult.

[Supergyro]

Well if you really want to make yourself crazy, look at robots with crews of 2 or 3 and try to understand exactly how that would work in the Palladium system..

1 Does the robot have the combined attacks per melee of all crew members?
2 Does the pilot do melee while the gunner does the guns?
3 Are some guns pilot operated while some are gunner operated?
4 Whose bonuses are used for a dodge/parry?
5 When a robot's crew is described as 'one or two', how does it differ when the crew is one versus when the crew is two?
6 What does the communications guy do?
7 How about the technical officers when they are present?

1 A robot vehicle typically has no attacks on its own, its crew however like all vehicles have all theirs and can use the attacks they have with what ever weapon or systems they have access to.

2 The pilot controls movement/mellee and any weapon listed as used by the pilot, gunner is limited to only weapons listed as for gunner.

3 If you read the description of a robot description it tells you who uses which weapon in multi person crew vehicles.(Reduntant question)

4 The pilot controls movement so you would use his dodge or parry; this leaves gunners free to devote all their actions to weapon attacks.

5 when a crew is one you have just a pilot and only his attacks, with two he has some one to serve as a gunner, or coms officer.

6 Communications members typically focus on maintaining communications (self explanatory) coordinate attacks with other units, call for fire(call for artillery use skill forward observer), request reinforcements they may also run sensors or counter jamming measures. It is a command and control spot typically not direct combat.

7 a technical officer is a specialist in a certain technical field, such as sensors, ECM, repair, a requirement for a technical officer means the unit has some advanced technical system that requires a dedicated specialist.

Note this is basically true of all vehicles, however to parry or use melee attacks the unit must have the ability to do so.

Note how none of your examples have rules citations, that's because there are no rules explaining this, only vague inferences. For example, look at the UAR-1 Enforcer (RUE P 249). Now each of these questions would need a very *clear* answer if a PC is going to pilot one or if the party will fight one.

1-4 The Crew is described as 'One or two'... No mention of what the purpose of these two people are. You say they can shoot 'whatever weapons systems they have access to', well one of the weapon systems describes 'equal to the attacks per melee of the gunner'... three of them simply say 'each attack counts as one attack per melee' (no mention of whose), one says 'Each individual attack counts as either the pilots or the gunner's attack', and one simply gives no description at all regarding who fires it and how often it can fire...

Now the crew says 'one or two'. One person with robot combat has 6-7 attacks per melee, two people together have 12-14 attacks.. that's a BIG difference, with a one crewed UAR-1 having roughly half the firepower of the two crewed... Also does it mean the 1 crewed UAR-1 can't use the Rail Gun? It's doesn't say not, but it sort of implies maybe.....

Literally most of the weapons don't specify as being used by the pilot or the gunner.. "Can be used by either" can't be the default because that is specified for one weapon systems, "gunner only" isn't the default because that is similarly specified, "Pilot only" can't be the default because that is specified for Hand to hand.... so who fires those missile launchers and how many attacks do they have? As the missiles are the most damaging weapons... it's kind of important to know how many attacks they get and who fires them....

If I go through this board how many people do you think actually play with UAR-1 Enforcers have 14 attacks per melee.... The reality is that it's poorly written and incredibly vague. Sure you can declare it one way or the other, but again, note how you don't have any rules citations because it SIMPLY DOES NOT SAY.

Now that there are communications and technical officers in play gets really odd... I mean, the UAR-1 says Crew "one or two", That implies the robot is piloted equally well with one or two people but does not give their roles.... but that can't be right if the two crew unit has literally twice the firepower of the one crewed unit.... And can the one crewed unit, does he have to be a pilot or can be just be a gunner, or can he do 3 attacks as a pilot then jump to the gunnery station for the other 3 attacks? The UAR-1 has a whole sensor system suite, who uses that? Does that need a technical officer (you said technical officers use the sensors, but the UAR 1 has a max crew of two, which means what, a pilot and a gunner, or a pilot and a tech officer?).

Can the pilot *not* use a radio? What exactly is 'communication' and how do robots who have a communications officer function differently than ones who do not... again, never explained.

These things are simply NOT explained, and if you go to seven rifts GM's you'll get seven different rulings but the reality is when you actually go to a rifts table.... these things are largely unused.

Yeah, you can always make the rules up on the fly, but given how ubiquitious robots are in Rifts... shouldn't "Robots have a clear way to determine how many attacks each weapon has per melee" be kind of a requirement?

[eliakon]

Why is 14 APM for a robot bad?
Its a giant war machine, there are some upsides for having a huge weapon that has multiple people manning it. That is one of the reasons that they get used. Its not just because they are cool looking.
Man a UAR with one person, that robot has half as many attacks as if you put two people in it. Seems pretty clear.

[ShadowLogan]

There's the Kittani K-ATV-RV Hover Jet, K-GTRV Hover Land Skimmer, K-TRF-M Fighter Robot, Triax X-6000 Transformable Sub, BAW-09 Walker-Bike and probably a couple more I'm forgetting. I've never seen a Variable Robot Skill outside of Robotech/Macross though. Robotech has Various Pilot Veritech skills and Macross has the Robot Combat & Flying Skill.
1. Why was there never a Variable Robot Skill for Rifts? Beyond that they're pretty rare? Is it that Robot Pilot Training is so much better that the character can operate the unit as long as they have the matching vehicle skill? An example being Pilot: Motorcyle for the Walker-Bike.
2. What happens if they come across a Robotech/Macross counterpart? Could this character also pilot a Cyclone with no problems? Other than a penalty for piloting the unfamiliar vehicle? Would it work the other way as well with a Cyclone Rider being able to operate a Walker-Bike?

1. IMHO the text from RUE allows them to operate "Robot Vehicle", and since variable form mecha are definatly Robot Vehicles, they skill is covered. Why Rifts went with simple and RT the more complex setup. No idea (could speculate, but I think others have it covered). That said though, Being able to transform isn't something I would allow "instant" knowledge even if you have the appropriate piloting skills (RC: Elite I would, but not Basic) unless the information is conferred to you in some manner, just seeing a control that is likely minimally marked isn't going to cut it either (ex, in RT initially Rick has Pilot Jet, but dropping him in the cockpit of a VF-1 he doesn't know what G or B labelled controls would mean, same thing here, even if they are Rifts designs and Rifts Characters).

2. Rifts and Robotech characters would treat the other's respective technologies as alien, even if they are developed by humans it is important to remember that Rifts Earth human technologies are based on "natural development", where the RT hardware was "jump started" by aliens (who are human, but more advanced) that are more advanced and took different routes in technology development, even in terms of user interfaces they could be vastly different in organization and layout.

PS
Which Variable Robots did I miss?

Atlantis: 2 Kittani robot vehicles (mentioned)
PW: Kittani Space Fighter (mentioned)
PW SB1: Naruni Ovid Combat Robot
Naruni Wave 2: NE-X4-LH "Sun Chariot"
Rifts South America 2: Galapagos Submersible Robot, possibly it depends on how you view the retracting of the head/legs
Rifts Underseas: Merbot, possibly it depends on one sees the leg/tail design (manual transformation or not), Triax X-6000 Sub (mentioned)

Where is the BAW-09 Walker-Bike from?

Wouldn't the Robot Combat Elite be an equivalent of Mecha Combat Elite? With a skill penalty for unknown mecha/robots?

IMHO, yes. The use of "mecha" is the term from the show and one they use and would use in dialogue, but for skill purposes it basically is the same as saying Robot or Mecha Combat: Elite. They function the same way. The piloting skills are more complicated in 2E RT as compared to Rifts given they could have simply used a single piloting skill for the various types of mecha, but 2E RT does have that "specialist" piloting bonus for specific type/model of mecha over the general skill.

in robotech you have 3 piloting skills that apply.

Note this list is based on the manga size books, I don't currently have the full-size versions so they may or may not recton them, but I haven't heard anyone mention it on the boards

Possibly 4 or 5 depending for human: Battloid, Veritech (all), Veritech Ground Vehicle, ASC Veritechs (pg65manga, granted it is basically All from main so its a "maybe"), Pilot Power Armor (pg73 manga in the Mechanized Infantry MOS, duplicated on pg46/54/56/58 given the way it is presented I don't think it is covered by Battloid IMHO)

Tack on the alien mecha and you get a few more: Pilot Bioroid (pg216manga TRM, also their Gravsled is a separate skill), Pilot Zentraedi Ground Mecha (pg237manga TMS), I also want to add Pilot Invid Commander & Overlord (NG SB pg74), but it isn't a learned skill and has no skill proficiency (unlike other mecha)

[glitterboy2098]

fair enough shadowlogan. those others slipped my mind, but there is a lot of overlap.
Pilot ASC battloids is the exact same skill as the "pilot: battloids" of the main book, it even gives you the same ability to pilot "cargo haulers and old style destroids" (though we have no stats for mecha based cargo haulers yet..)
Pilot ASC veritechs is likewise a reprint of the "pilot veritechs" from the main book, just with a name change.
and i'd just forgotten about the zentreadi one.

though i would point out that the ASC powered armor, bioroid, and gravsled skills don't actually have skill list entries for them. they only appear in the relevant OCC's and MOS's, and there with just the skill bonus.

which means that, rules as written, they don't have actual skills, and we have to default to the "and similar mecha" of the Pilot battloid skill to cover them, as ASC powered armor and bioroids as certainly "similar mecha" to battloids and destroids.
the gravsled skill can't default directly in quite the same way, but the pilot: hovercycles and hover vehicles skill has the closest description that might match, which is how most GM's i've worked with seem to rule it.

[Blue_Lion]

Well if you really want to make yourself crazy, look at robots with crews of 2 or 3 and try to understand exactly how that would work in the Palladium system..

1 Does the robot have the combined attacks per melee of all crew members?
2 Does the pilot do melee while the gunner does the guns?
3 Are some guns pilot operated while some are gunner operated?
4 Whose bonuses are used for a dodge/parry?
5 When a robot's crew is described as 'one or two', how does it differ when the crew is one versus when the crew is two?
6 What does the communications guy do?
7 How about the technical officers when they are present?

1 A robot vehicle typically has no attacks on its own, its crew however like all vehicles have all theirs and can use the attacks they have with what ever weapon or systems they have access to.

2 The pilot controls movement/mellee and any weapon listed as used by the pilot, gunner is limited to only weapons listed as for gunner.

3 If you read the description of a robot description it tells you who uses which weapon in multi person crew vehicles.(Reduntant question)

4 The pilot controls movement so you would use his dodge or parry; this leaves gunners free to devote all their actions to weapon attacks.

5 when a crew is one you have just a pilot and only his attacks, with two he has some one to serve as a gunner, or coms officer.

6 Communications members typically focus on maintaining communications (self explanatory) coordinate attacks with other units, call for fire(call for artillery use skill forward observer), request reinforcements they may also run sensors or counter jamming measures. It is a command and control spot typically not direct combat.

7 a technical officer is a specialist in a certain technical field, such as sensors, ECM, repair, a requirement for a technical officer means the unit has some advanced technical system that requires a dedicated specialist.

Note this is basically true of all vehicles, however to parry or use melee attacks the unit must have the ability to do so.

Note how none of your examples have rules citations, that's because there are no rules explaining this, only vague inferences. For example, look at the UAR-1 Enforcer (RUE P 249). Now each of these questions would need a very *clear* answer if a PC is going to pilot one or if the party will fight one.

1-4 The Crew is described as 'One or two'... No mention of what the purpose of these two people are. You say they can shoot 'whatever weapons systems they have access to', well one of the weapon systems describes 'equal to the attacks per melee of the gunner'... three of them simply say 'each attack counts as one attack per melee' (no mention of whose), one says 'Each individual attack counts as either the pilots or the gunner's attack', and one simply gives no description at all regarding who fires it and how often it can fire...

Now the crew says 'one or two'. One person with robot combat has 6-7 attacks per melee, two people together have 12-14 attacks.. that's a BIG difference, with a one crewed UAR-1 having roughly half the firepower of the two crewed... Also does it mean the 1 crewed UAR-1 can't use the Rail Gun? It's doesn't say not, but it sort of implies maybe.....

Literally most of the weapons don't specify as being used by the pilot or the gunner.. "Can be used by either" can't be the default because that is specified for one weapon systems, "gunner only" isn't the default because that is similarly specified, "Pilot only" can't be the default because that is specified for Hand to hand.... so who fires those missile launchers and how many attacks do they have? As the missiles are the most damaging weapons... it's kind of important to know how many attacks they get and who fires them....

If I go through this board how many people do you think actually play with UAR-1 Enforcers have 14 attacks per melee.... The reality is that it's poorly written and incredibly vague. Sure you can declare it one way or the other, but again, note how you don't have any rules citations because it SIMPLY DOES NOT SAY.

Now that there are communications and technical officers in play gets really odd... I mean, the UAR-1 says Crew "one or two", That implies the robot is piloted equally well with one or two people but does not give their roles.... but that can't be right if the two crew unit has literally twice the firepower of the one crewed unit.... And can the one crewed unit, does he have to be a pilot or can be just be a gunner, or can he do 3 attacks as a pilot then jump to the gunnery station for the other 3 attacks? The UAR-1 has a whole sensor system suite, who uses that? Does that need a technical officer (you said technical officers use the sensors, but the UAR 1 has a max crew of two, which means what, a pilot and a gunner, or a pilot and a tech officer?).

Can the pilot *not* use a radio? What exactly is 'communication' and how do robots who have a communications officer function differently than ones who do not... again, never explained.

These things are simply NOT explained, and if you go to seven rifts GM's you'll get seven different rulings but the reality is when you actually go to a rifts table.... these things are largely unused.

Yeah, you can always make the rules up on the fly, but given how ubiquitious robots are in Rifts... shouldn't "Robots have a clear way to determine how many attacks each weapon has per melee" be kind of a requirement?

The UAR is a bit uncomon as all systems are designed to be used by the pilot but it can accommodate a second person to serve as a gunner. Basically every thing is defaulted to the pilot and only things that make reference to a gunner are used by second person. The fact that it tells you in one of the weapon there is a gunners actions means they just assumed you would know the second person is a gunner.

You are over thinking things when you say the number of attacks is a bit ubiquitious, the rules are set up that each charter has X number of attacks. Multi crew vehicles are not 1 charter but a group of charters working as a team. They do not tell you how many actions each weapon has because that would bog things by requiring an entirely separate set of rules instead of using the standard ones as every one else, simply put doing so would be a waste of effort.(note some multi crew vehicles do limit the number of attacks some weapons can do, such as the iron hammer main battle tank having a rate of fire of 2 for the main gun.)

The description and number of attacks in robot combat are noted to reference piloting. If you look at robot combat basic it talks about how it is to help pilots the number of attacks bonus is also linked to pilots. This to me shows it is a skill to primary benefit the pilot with the acceptation of single one providing a bonus to gunners strikes they do not apply to robots. (some people may disagree but most of it is listed as direct pilot support.) Basically my understanding of the rules is the pilot gets the bonus attacks to move him to 6+ but the gunner is at the base 4+.(but as long as you are constant on the applications of who gets how many actions in a robot it is all good.)



The rolls tell you how or what the crew is involved with a gunner is primarily shooting guns, the pilot is piloting or moving the unit if you are not the pilot then you can not move to dodge.

On communications yes the pilot can talk on the radio, however by having a communication man that means the pilot can focus on combat and the communications officer can devote all his time/actions to communication, such as talking to people on multiple channels, preparing a call for fire(something that could not be done while actively fighting.) The roll was not based on rules but a understanding of military operations Communications nco/soldiers specialize in use of the radio and fixing the radio when things are not working. Think of it as just some ones whos job is to make the pilots life easier, a unit with a comms spot can fight just fine without the communications specialist in his seat as he does not normally shoot weapons or move the unit. (For game use unless you are allowing the unit to use the forward observer skill, the communication person has no affect on combat so no rules are really needed same can be said for most specialist spots.)

Note: there is a example vehicle combat in Ninjas and superspies pg 134 in the non revised(not sure on the page in the revised), although good was written for that setting that not only has its own combat tweaks do to advanced martial arts but is not updated to changes to the core rules found in rue.

[ShadowLogan]

fair enough shadowlogan. those others slipped my mind, but there is a lot of overlap.

I can agree that some of them overlap and can basically be lumped together. I actually thought the Zentreadi had several skills going by the OCC/MOS descriptions, but in the Skill description block it was just one skill with specialization options (another way 2E RT differs from Rifts in how the various Robot/Mecha piloting skills work).

though i would point out that the ASC powered armor, bioroid, and gravsled skills don't actually have skill list entries for them. they only appear in the relevant OCC's and MOS's, and there with just the skill bonus.

The Pilot ASC Power Armor, Pilot Bioroid, Pilot Bioroid Gravsled. You are correct that the skills are not detailed, but they are identified as existing on some level.

My main point is just to state that there are additional mecha piloting skills on the book that go beyond the basic 3 from the main book in 2E RT. How an individual GM handles the issue for the 3 missing descriptions is of course up to the GM (lump them or separate them). I don't know if it was ever addressed in the full-size edition.

[Supergyro]

The UAR is a bit uncomon as all systems are designed to be used by the pilot but it can accommodate a second person to serve as a gunner. Basically every thing is defaulted to the pilot and only things that make reference to a gunner are used by second person. The fact that it tells you in one of the weapon there is a gunners actions means they just assumed you would know the second person is a gunner.

Please give the book and page numbers where it says this... because the text in the UAR-1 says none of this.

As far as I can tell, this is said nowhere in the text, and implied in other entries not to be true (The Triax forager battlebot for example says the belly turret is equal to the attacks per melee.... 4-8, but for the stated crew of that robot, there is no way two trained operators can only have 4 attacks.... two operators would have a minimum of 8, and more likely 10-12 total attacks per melee.)

*every* robot has these bizarre entries that seem to have rules attached but no rules are present as to how this actually works.

They do not tell you how many actions each weapon has

So they tell you how many attacks *some* of the weapons have, but not *others*, and again, they never say what the default is. When one weapon says 'this weapon has one attack for each of the gunner's attacks', another says 'either the pilot or the gunner can fire this weapon', then the 'default' would need to be something else, but at no point is the default given.

Please give book and page numbers backing up your statements because the books I'm reading simply don't say how it works, leaving a complete ambiguity. Sure, maybe pilots can use the gunner guns when the gunner isn't there, but maybe they can't, maybe a robot with a pilot and gunner has a total of 10 attacks per melee, with only 5 of them usable for dodges but maybe it only has 5 total attacks.



And given the question comes down to "That big rail gun on the UAR-1, can it fire *five* times per melee (gunner using it on every one of his attacks) or *ten* (gunner and pilot each firing it on their attacks), that seems to me to be a mighty big omission.

[Blue_Lion]

The UAR is a bit uncomon as all systems are designed to be used by the pilot but it can accommodate a second person to serve as a gunner. Basically every thing is defaulted to the pilot and only things that make reference to a gunner are used by second person. The fact that it tells you in one of the weapon there is a gunners actions means they just assumed you would know the second person is a gunner.

Please give the book and page numbers where it says this... because the text in the UAR-1 says none of this.

As far as I can tell, this is said nowhere in the text, and implied in other entries not to be true (The Triax forager battlebot for example says the belly turret is equal to the attacks per melee.... 4-8, but for the stated crew of that robot, there is no way two trained operators can only have 4 attacks.... two operators would have a minimum of 8, and more likely 10-12 total attacks per melee.)

*every* robot has these bizarre entries that seem to have rules attached but no rules are present as to how this actually works.

They do not tell you how many actions each weapon has

So they tell you how many attacks *some* of the weapons have, but not *others*, and again, they never say what the default is. When one weapon says 'this weapon has one attack for each of the gunner's attacks', another says 'either the pilot or the gunner can fire this weapon', then the 'default' would need to be something else, but at no point is the default given.

Please give book and page numbers backing up your statements because the books I'm reading simply don't say how it works, leaving a complete ambiguity. Sure, maybe pilots can use the gunner guns when the gunner isn't there, but maybe they can't, maybe a robot with a pilot and gunner has a total of 10 attacks per melee, with only 5 of them usable for dodges but maybe it only has 5 total attacks.



And given the question comes down to "That big rail gun on the UAR-1, can it fire *five* times per melee (gunner using it on every one of his attacks) or *ten* (gunner and pilot each firing it on their attacks), that seems to me to be a mighty big omission.

*sigh* you are making this more complex than it need to be for its own sake.

I said one of the weapons on the UAR 1 has a weapon says pg 249 it has attacks equal to the number of the pilot or gunner. That is telling you there is a pilot and a gunner as I said it implies you know the second person is a gunner. The intent is clear that to me, I have no idea why you miss it other than wanting it be left open.

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

(Now you are introducing a new element with no direct book link and quite frankly I do not feel like searching for it.) On the battle forger let me ask you this how many people can shoot at the same time? Typically the number of people is one, I am willing to bet if it list multiple rolls it includes the word or and not the word and. 1 person shooting it would typically have 4-8 actions your own math tells you that it can not be both people using the weapon and using the number of attacks listed and math you come up with only 1 is using it.(at best this shows an assumption that you know only 1 person can use a weapon, some might consider this common sense.) Math supports this statement another way if each person has 5 attacks that means to shoot takes them 3 seconds to line up the shot, so two different people line up a shot each would require 3 seconds to shoot or 6 (no requirement that both shoot the same target so both need time to shoot) seconds total; that means it would take the time of two actions for both to shoot the weapon either one sat and did nothing or they are jumping between weapons so this would seam to imply what the number of attacks tells you that the number does not represent them pooling or their attacks but only 1 person using the weapon at time.(note; this is not the rules but taking a look at math on how long actions take, and seeing how it justifies the undefined quote you presented.)

There is a rule in English, for every rule there is an acceptation. there may be some rare acceptations so yes there are a few weapons out there that tell you the number of attacks they can do but that does not change the fact by default they do not tell you.

I disagree that no where near every robot has bizarre entries that seam to have rules attached, by default it is all handed by default rules. I can prove this without leaving RUE.

PG 273 titian robot has a crew of one tells you each weapon uses one attack.
PG 250 has a pilot co pilot/gunner and all weapons are linked to either the pilots or co pilots attacks. Or means 1 or the other.

I am sorry you fill that the game designers need to hold your hand and tell you attacks from robots work the same as everything else and you seam to be having trouble with the word or. But you have not presented the need for specific robot rules just that for some reason you are having trouble grasping that they use the same rules for attacks as any other combat.

[Supergyro]

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

[Blue_Lion]

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

If he is in the pilots seat no.

[Supergyro]

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

If he is in the pilots seat no.

Now this leads to a giant bunch of questions..

1) Can he be the gunner and not the pilot if there isn't another person in the UAR-1? Does the first person in the UAR-1 *have* to be the pilot or can he be a gunner if he chooses?
2) How long does it take for him to 'switch seats' if he wants to fire the gun? Free action? One attack? Is it even possible?

However, Read the combat example given in the original Rifts book. It has a UAR-1 enforcer fighting a SAMAS... it's not stated whether the enforcer has one pilot or two, however..

For every attack the SAMAS has the UAR-1 gets one attack, so either the UAR-1 has only a pilot *OR* it has a pilot and a gunner but the end result is a UAR-1 that acts like it has only one person's number of attacks. This would imply by your interpretation that there's only *one* person in the UAR-1 (since if there were two, the initiative would be 'SAMAS, UAR-1 pilot, UAR-1 gunner, SAMAS... etc...' instead it's just SAMAS,UAR-1, SAMAS, UAR-1..).

And said UAR-1 uses its rail gun... not a single mention is made of whether this is the UAR-1 operator acting as 'pilot' or 'gunner'. This 'Pilot/gunner' thing is ONLY mentioned in the individual weapon entries, (not even in every entry) again with no discussion of exactly how it works, and when you're actually playing in game, this leads to a ton of unanswered questions (like above) and self-contradictory ideas (like your 'a one man UAR-1 can't use that rail gun.... and yet the example given uses the rail gun).

So either your 'Pilot and gunner both get all their attacks on their initiative' is not correct or your 'pilots can't use the rail gun' is incorrect or... and this is the likely case..

The rules are poorly written, incredibly imprecise, and show them to five different people you'll get five different readings. Implying I'm 'dumb' because I can see how the few rules in place can and probably are interpreted in multiple mutually exclusive ways is kind of silly. I can see how you're reading the rules, I can also see about 2 or 3 alternative readings... and nothing is present in the rules to determine which is the right one beyond who can be more emphatic in their discussion.

[glitterboy2098]

the UAR-1, and a number of other robot vehicles with 2 crew seats, are described as being pilotable by a single person.

what this basically means is that each crewmembers seat would include a basic duplicate of the other's controls. so you could drive a UAR-1 from either seat, or fire the guns from either seat. it's just the pilot's seat is geared primarily for driving, and the gunnery related systems will be less prominant, and the gunnery seat is geared mainly for controlling the guns and the piloting related systems are less prominent.

thus if there is only one crewmember inside, they can control all aspects of the robot's fighting.. they just do not benefit from the additional attacks and different skill based bonuses offered by having a dedicated gunner.

the advantage of such a system is that the pilot and gunner can each take control of different weapon systems. for example, in the UAR-1, the pilot is generally going to get better combat results out the shoulder railgun, because it's aiming is partially based on the robot's movement and facing, something the pilot controls. While the shoulder laser turrets are generally going to benefit from having the gunner control them, given their independent aiming and role in defending the vehicle from incoming missiles. if the pilot controls them, it would distract him from his piloting, be it the aiming of the shoulder railgun, or attempts to dodge/evade incoming fire. the missiles can be argued either way.. the MRM's and SRM's could be controlled by the pilot due to the need to steer the robot to face the target, at at the same time the gunner controllign them would allow missiles to be fired along side the shoulder railgun or during piloting maneuvers like dodging. the minimissile turret is likely gunner controlled normally, for similar reasons as the laser turrets.

it is likely that the crew can choose to shift control of different weapon systems between seats to meet specific tactical needs. this would give the robot the best combat capability and most flexibility.. both in terms of using the right weapon for a situation, and for the crew to find the right balance that works for them as a team.

[eliakon]

Sounds like the demo UAR-1 had one person in it.
Who would be piloting it ("pilot") and as a pilot, can also fire the weapons.
If there was also a gunner, then the combat would go something like this

SAMAS
UAR Pilot
UAR Gunner
SAMAS
UAR Pilot
UAR Gunner

Or however the initiatives ended up.

[glitterboy2098]

of course, this assumes your GM uses seperate initiative for each crew member.. it might be simplier to use one init for the vehicle, and just have it doing as many actions simultaneously as it has crew..

[Blue_Lion]

Supergyro- The rail gun in the UA1 in the rifts main book the rail gun was not limited to the gunner only. So for the example in the main book the pilot could shoot the rail gun and it was written with only the pilot if it only had 1 attack. How ever the update in RUE changed the rail gun to gunner only.

1 in theory he could sit in the gunner seat but the robot would not be able to walk or use the arms, and start up might be controlled from the pilots seat. Typically it can be assumed that the unit will not be combat without a pilot but load order would not lock rolls in common sense is what seat you are in sets your roll.

2 How long it takes to change seats was not covered and would be a GM call, I do not think it is a free action though as it would be more complex than a typical free action. I would think it will be common sense you would not be jumping back in forth between seats in combat.

Glitterboy2098- That is not what it means just because it has two seats does not mean they have the same controls, the only identity of rolls we have is pilot and gunner it would be cheaper to build the gunner seat with striped down controls as we have at least 1 weapon that only the gunner can use that means the controls can not be exactly the same. In addition if both seats can control the over all unit the same and one had extra controls for weapons the default for the pilot would be to sit in seat with the extra gun.

Further more look at the difference in the weapon write up the spider skull walker that is crewed by two, and has duplicate controls. It does not say pilot or gunner but pilot or copilot/gunner.
So between the write up of two side by side robots, it is clear that the UA1 is not writen the same as a unit with identical control seats, so your statement on the seats would need some sort of evidence.

Also the shoulder rail gun that you said the pilot was better at using is listed as using the gunners actions not the pilots actions.

[Sambot]

2:in Anime, no there are not unique…..in american TV yes they pretty much are. (note I am not using absolute terms for the 2nd part.)

3 Yes, the Bot & PA skills are listed in the same text section but the way they read shows that is just a space saving item and they are separate skills.

pilot a cyclone in motorcycle mode, yes. know how to pilot it as a PA not without being taught or experimenting with it to self-teach, No. ((Read my words. Here, I am saying exactly what I mean, w/o any looseness in the word meanings.))

Cyclone pilots would have it worlds easier with the bot-bike in bot mode, then motorcycle riders would have with cyclones in PA mode. & w/o the proper armor they would not be able to transform any cyclone into PA mode.

2; They're unique in Rifts. In anime...more common than in Rifts but they're not in every Robot Anime.

3, Um...I just reread the skill description in Rifts GM's Guide and training includes Robots and Power Armor. Specifically Light and Medium Robots and Power Armor. That would mean that there should be a skill for Piloting Large Robots but there isn't one.

I agree it isn't possible to pilot a Cyclone in PA mode without the CVR armor. But there is a difference between wearing the armor and driving a robot. Driving Robots isn't something Cyclone Riders aren't usually trained for but the old Conversion gives them that skill. Of course the Walker Bike is probably super easy to pilot so can see the Cyclone Rider driving it but not a Spider Skull Waker.

[Sambot]

as i pointed out earlier, Tiree is incorrect on many points.
in rifts robot piloting works as follows:
the Pilot RPA skill allows you to pilot any form of robot or PA
the Robot/PA combat skills grant you bonuses over your HTH if you have them.
the combat skills come in basic and Elite forms, so you have 4 versions (5 if you count the glitterboy specific elite)

these 6 skills give you the ability to use any rifts robot or PA, regardless of who built it or type.

in robotech you have 3 piloting skills that apply.
Pilot Battloids allows you to pilot non-transforming mecha like destroids, battloids, and RAW, the ASC power armor.
Pilot Ground veritechs allows you to pilot any non-aircraft transforming mecha, like hovertanks, silverbacks, and cyclones.
Pilot Veritech covers all transforming mecha, such as VF-1's, alpha's, beta's, Logans, Ajax, hovertanks, cyclones, silverback, etc..
the reason for the two different skills and their overlap is to prevent the cyclone riders and other ground troops from automatically gaining the ability to fly a veritech aircraft.

Combat is via the MECT (mecha elite combat training), which is vehicle specific. so if you want to have the combat bonuses for both the Alpha and a Saber cyclone you have to spend 2 skills to get them. but that means you don't get the bonuses with say, the VF-1 or Hovertank.


basically robotech is a more specific skill set system when it comes to mecha. while in rifts the skills set is more generic. this is to make the robotech RPG fit the show more closely, since we have examples in the show where pilots need retraining to use the different mecha.

Rifts has 6 forms? Sorry you lost me. I know there's Pilot Robots and Power Armor, and Basic and Elite Combat but what are the other three?

The Pilot Ground Veritechs seems to only appear to one type. At least that's what the or between veritech types indicates to me. And it does make sense to separate out ground and air veritechs so ground personnel don't gain aircraft piloting skills. (Although why some don't have those skills I don't know. Or maybe they're free?) But the Pilot Veritechs (all) skill does give free ground vehicle skills.

rifts does not have official rules for transforming vehicles, so it is up to the GM. guardiandashi is presenting his own views on how this system should work. which is where the disconnect is comign from. (this is a common issue on the boards.. many posters use houserules and forget they aren't the official ones.)

Rifts originally did not have transforming vehicles, and the handful of ones we have now are more the exception than the rule when considered as part of the mass of robots and PA in the gamel ine. so there hasn't been much call for a robotech like specialized skill system.

in robotech, since so many of their vehicles are transforming, it is just assumed the Veritech skills would include enough of the vehicle mode piloting training that it is all in one skill.

you have two main options as far as handling the issue in rifts.
the first is to treat the alternate mode as using the appropriate vehicle piloting skill, which would require your character to have both the RPA piloting skill and whatever vehicle piloting skill is needed.

the other is to just assume the RPA piloting skill covers the alternate modes as well, and not worry about it.

ultimately it comes down to how you prefer to run things in your game.

I guess I'll stick with option 1. RPA skill plus the vehicle skill with it going back and forth between Rifts and Robotech Characters.

and the combat pods thing is a bit of an artifact of the fact Rifts relies on freelancers so much.. some freelancers are "splitters" when it comes to crating new skills, with any new area of need getting new skills. others are 'lumpers' that tend to assume an existing skill would cover it.
the first combat pod vehicle was written by a freelancer that believed a new skill was needed, and so that skill was provided in that book. when you are right, it probably should have just fell under hover vehicle.

also, ignore everything he says about "thinking it through". that has never been part of the official robotech. even under the old canon.

in the robotech novel series, which was written with a lot of deviation from the show's setting and plot, and without much oversight on the part of HG, the concept of a helmet that read thoughts was introduced, which contradicted multiple points of the actual dialog of the show. this is where the "think it through" stuff comes from. in the novels, you barely used controls, you had to mentally visualize practically everything, including transforming. and blaming Rand's inability to transform his cyclone on that is utter stupid, since the real issue is that the cyclone requires special body armor toswitch in armor mode.. and Rand didn't have it.

I don't mind the Combat Pod skill but it did make me wonder why no Variable Robot Skill. It would have been just as easy to add.

That's why Rand's Cyclone didn't work? I had wondered.

and IMHO the walker bike probably just falls under "pilot: motorcycle" since it really isn't much of a "robot." it wouldn't be hard to program the thing to react to motorcycle type controls and balance. it just walks rather than rolls at times. you'd need a computer translating your directional instructions into the walking motion anyway, so programming it to use the same controls and piloting set up as the bike part wouldn't be too much more difficult.

I suppose so. Even with arms it doesn't look as complicated to operate as just about any other Robot or PA available.

If I go through this board how many people do you think actually play with UAR-1 Enforcers have 14 attacks per melee.... The reality is that it's poorly written and incredibly vague. Sure you can declare it one way or the other, but again, note how you don't have any rules citations because it SIMPLY DOES NOT SAY.

Now that there are communications and technical officers in play gets really odd... I mean, the UAR-1 says Crew "one or two", That implies the robot is piloted equally well with one or two people but does not give their roles.... but that can't be right if the two crew unit has literally twice the firepower of the one crewed unit.... And can the one crewed unit, does he have to be a pilot or can be just be a gunner, or can he do 3 attacks as a pilot then jump to the gunnery station for the other 3 attacks? The UAR-1 has a whole sensor system suite, who uses that? Does that need a technical officer (you said technical officers use the sensors, but the UAR 1 has a max crew of two, which means what, a pilot and a gunner, or a pilot and a tech officer?).

Can the pilot *not* use a radio? What exactly is 'communication' and how do robots who have a communications officer function differently than ones who do not... again, never explained.

These things are simply NOT explained, and if you go to seven rifts GM's you'll get seven different rulings but the reality is when you actually go to a rifts table.... these things are largely unused.

Yeah, you can always make the rules up on the fly, but given how ubiquitious robots are in Rifts... shouldn't "Robots have a clear way to determine how many attacks each weapon has per melee" be kind of a requirement?

[/quote]


Maybe it's 14 Actions? So the pilot drives the robot forward, dodges a missile, avoids hitting a tree and moves around a wall, while calling on the radio for back up. All while the gunner is firing various weapons at their opponents?

[Sambot]

1. IMHO the text from RUE allows them to operate "Robot Vehicle", and since variable form mecha are definatly Robot Vehicles, they skill is covered. Why Rifts went with simple and RT the more complex setup. No idea (could speculate, but I think others have it covered). That said though, Being able to transform isn't something I would allow "instant" knowledge even if you have the appropriate piloting skills (RC: Elite I would, but not Basic) unless the information is conferred to you in some manner, just seeing a control that is likely minimally marked isn't going to cut it either (ex, in RT initially Rick has Pilot Jet, but dropping him in the cockpit of a VF-1 he doesn't know what G or B labelled controls would mean, same thing here, even if they are Rifts designs and Rifts Characters).

I wouldn't think being able to transform would be instant either. The character having RC Elite though would have been trained on it so they'd know how to transform. So for someone who's not used to transforming do they get the sill penalty for alien robots and RC Basic or just RC Basic and no skill penalty?

2. Rifts and Robotech characters would treat the other's respective technologies as alien, even if they are developed by humans it is important to remember that Rifts Earth human technologies are based on "natural development", where the RT hardware was "jump started" by aliens (who are human, but more advanced) that are more advanced and took different routes in technology development, even in terms of user interfaces they could be vastly different in organization and layout.

I agree. And there are skill penalties for alien robots and they'd be using RC: Basic. That part I'm okay with it's the Transforming and Robots and PA being lumped together and there not being a Power Armor skill in Robotech. Unless I missed it?

Atlantis: 2 Kittani robot vehicles (mentioned)
PW: Kittani Space Fighter (mentioned)
PW SB1: Naruni Ovid Combat Robot
Naruni Wave 2: NE-X4-LH "Sun Chariot"
Rifts South America 2: Galapagos Submersible Robot, possibly it depends on how you view the retracting of the head/legs
Rifts Underseas: Merbot, possibly it depends on one sees the leg/tail design (manual transformation or not), Triax X-6000 Sub (mentioned)

Where is the BAW-09 Walker-Bike from?

Cool! Thanks.

It's in Rifts Black Market.

IMHO, yes. The use of "mecha" is the term from the show and one they use and would use in dialogue, but for skill purposes it basically is the same as saying Robot or Mecha Combat: Elite. They function the same way. The piloting skills are more complicated in 2E RT as compared to Rifts given they could have simply used a single piloting skill for the various types of mecha, but 2E RT does have that "specialist" piloting bonus for specific type/model of mecha over the general skill.

Yeah 2E RT is confusing that way. There's all these different types with different mech in each and Elite usually only covers one.

Note this list is based on the manga size books, I don't currently have the full-size versions so they may or may not recton them, but I haven't heard anyone mention it on the boards

Possibly 4 or 5 depending for human: Battloid, Veritech (all), Veritech Ground Vehicle, ASC Veritechs (pg65manga, granted it is basically All from main so its a "maybe"), Pilot Power Armor (pg73 manga in the Mechanized Infantry MOS, duplicated on pg46/54/56/58 given the way it is presented I don't think it is covered by Battloid IMHO)

Tack on the alien mecha and you get a few more: Pilot Bioroid (pg216manga TRM, also their Gravsled is a separate skill), Pilot Zentraedi Ground Mecha (pg237manga TMS), I also want to add Pilot Invid Commander & Overlord (NG SB pg74), but it isn't a learned skill and has no skill proficiency (unlike other mecha)

Are you adding all the various Robot Elite skills? Doesn't Rifts have that many in the RPG alone?

Where are the Pilot Power Armor and Bioroid and Bioroid Gravesled skill definitions and percentages at?


Thanks

[ShadowLogan]

I wouldn't think being able to transform would be instant either. The character having RC Elite though would have been trained on it so they'd know how to transform. So for someone who's not used to transforming do they get the sill penalty for alien robots and RC Basic or just RC Basic and no skill penalty?

In Rifts Context
If the unit is in vehicle mode they wouldn't get any Robot Combat: Basic and would use any appropriate penalties for the vehicle mode piloting skill since they don't know how to transform.

If the unit is in robot mode (or a RT intermediate mode) they would get Robot Combat Basic, nothing on the skill description prevents that from applying. The skill penalty would apply if it is "alien" for them.

That part I'm okay with it's the Transforming and Robots and PA being lumped together and there not being a Power Armor skill in Robotech. Unless I missed it?

1E RT has no real power armor skill other than Cyclone, then again its selection of Power Armor is pretty limited compared to 2E RT.

2E RT there is a dedicated Power Armor Skill identified in "The Masters Saga Source Book", but it isn't stated out (so it might be a part of Battloid it might not be though). The Main Book and Macross Saga Source Book introduce it as subset ability of existing skills for power armor found in their respective books. So in a sense they are doing the Rifts thing with unified "Robot" & "Power Armor", though also creating variants of the skill on top of it.

Are you adding all the various Robot Elite skills? Doesn't Rifts have that many in the RPG alone?

Where are the Pilot Power Armor and Bioroid and Bioroid Gravesled skill definitions and percentages at?

#2. That's just it, they do not have skill definitions and percentages in the manga size book (I don't know if it was fixed for the full-size). What we have in that book is them being listed in various OCC/MOS packages.

#1 I'm only looking at the 2E Robotech Books I own in that context. Rifts is not being factored in. I think it is important to remind you that Piloting mecha in 2E Robotech isn't exactly a 1:1 based on Rifts Robot & Power Armor/RC:EorB (as 1E RT was).

Rifts would look like (and 1E RT would be similar) for a mecha pilot skill on a character sheet:
Pilot Robots & Power Armor ##% (1 Skill)
Robot Combat: Elite XXX (1 Skill)
Robot Combat: Basic (you get this for free if you select Elite, otherwise you pay a skill slot)

2E Robotech would look like this for a mecha pilot (using UEEF Veritech Pilot Alpha MOS) on a character sheet:
Mecha: Pilot Veritechs: (1 Skill, granting 3 subskills essentially)
---Alpha Fighter ##% (Speciality Area, provides a bonus to the skill, in this case its Alpha Fighter, presumably you could take additional speciality areas at a cost of one additional skill each like Mecha Elite Combat)
---General/All ##% (Any Veritech not applicable to Speciality Area)
---non-transformable Battloids ##% (technically, this is done with a penalty to the General Skill, it doesn't need to be listed but I did anyway)
Mecha Elite Combat: Alpha (in this case, you can select others. There is NO BASIC version)

This is how the other 2E RT mecha piloting skills work to (Pilot Ground Veritechs, Pilot Battloids, Pilot ASC Power Armor, Pilot Bioroid, Pilot Zentreadi Ground Mecha though Power Armor and Bioroid might be selections for Battloid specialization or separate skills depending on how the GM wants to play it).

[Sambot]

In Rifts Context
If the unit is in vehicle mode they wouldn't get any Robot Combat: Basic and would use any appropriate penalties for the vehicle mode piloting skill since they don't know how to transform.

If the unit is in robot mode (or a RT intermediate mode) they would get Robot Combat Basic, nothing on the skill description prevents that from applying. The skill penalty would apply if it is "alien" for them.

Make sense.

1E RT has no real power armor skill other than Cyclone, then again its selection of Power Armor is pretty limited compared to 2E RT.

2E RT there is a dedicated Power Armor Skill identified in "The Masters Saga Source Book", but it isn't stated out (so it might be a part of Battloid it might not be though). The Main Book and Macross Saga Source Book introduce it as subset ability of existing skills for power armor found in their respective books. So in a sense they are doing the Rifts thing with unified "Robot" & "Power Armor", though also creating variants of the skill on top of it.

1E RT seems to lump all the Zentraedi Mecha into one Piloting Skill, except for a few OCCs. Mecha Combat Power Armor is listed as a separate skill choice in some OCCs. 2E RT seems to do the same in the Macross Sourcebook but then it says that each category of mecha is a separate skill.

I can't find Power Armor in the Shadow Chronicles. Just Pilot Battloids which seems to cover all humanoid non-transformable mecha. It also gives a skill bonus to one mecha type. So I guess they could be doing the Rifts Robots & Power Armor thing. I wish they'd been more clear though. Especially since the Marines Sourcebook came out.

#2. That's just it, they do not have skill definitions and percentages in the manga size book (I don't know if it was fixed for the full-size). What we have in that book is them being listed in various OCC/MOS packages.

If it's in the full size book I haven't found it.

#1 I'm only looking at the 2E Robotech Books I own in that context. Rifts is not being factored in. I think it is important to remind you that Piloting mecha in 2E Robotech isn't exactly a 1:1 based on Rifts Robot & Power Armor/RC:EorB (as 1E RT was).

Rifts would look like (and 1E RT would be similar) for a mecha pilot skill on a character sheet:
Pilot Robots & Power Armor ##% (1 Skill)
Robot Combat: Elite XXX (1 Skill)
Robot Combat: Basic (you get this for free if you select Elite, otherwise you pay a skill slot)

2E Robotech would look like this for a mecha pilot (using UEEF Veritech Pilot Alpha MOS) on a character sheet:
Mecha: Pilot Veritechs: (1 Skill, granting 3 subskills essentially)
---Alpha Fighter ##% (Speciality Area, provides a bonus to the skill, in this case its Alpha Fighter, presumably you could take additional speciality areas at a cost of one additional skill each like Mecha Elite Combat)
---General/All ##% (Any Veritech not applicable to Speciality Area)
---non-transformable Battloids ##% (technically, this is done with a penalty to the General Skill, it doesn't need to be listed but I did anyway)
Mecha Elite Combat: Alpha (in this case, you can select others. There is NO BASIC version)

This is how the other 2E RT mecha piloting skills work to (Pilot Ground Veritechs, Pilot Battloids, Pilot ASC Power Armor, Pilot Bioroid, Pilot Zentreadi Ground Mecha though Power Armor and Bioroid might be selections for Battloid specialization or separate skills depending on how the GM wants to play it).

We really could use a new Conversion book. Along with some clarifications. I think I got it though but the changes between the 1E and 2E still throw me off. It doesn't help that they started at the end and then worked their way back forward while skipping over some areas. There just seems to be lots of little things like skill definitions and clarifications and percentages falling through the cracks.

Any way,
Thanks

[glitterboy2098]

i don't think that harmony Gold would allow updated conversion book info for robotech.

any way, since 2nd Ed uses RUE as a baseline source for rules and stuff, the number of actual rules required to bring them to rifts is a lot less than other settings.

[ShadowLogan]

We really could use a new Conversion book. Along with some clarifications. I think I got it though but the changes between the 1E and 2E still throw me off. It doesn't help that they started at the end and then worked their way back forward while skipping over some areas. There just seems to be lots of little things like skill definitions and clarifications and percentages falling through the cracks.

Any way,
Thanks

A Conversion Book really isn't necessary though as gb2098 said (and unlikely for the above reasons). What we need is Errata/Updates to the existing 2E RT material to address internal issues like this. Porting into Rifts though will have to be a GM thing in how they elect to handle it (PERSONALLY I won't allow imports from RT/M2 into Rifts setting). Rifts could do with some explanation on how to handle the piloting skills on the next transformable unit they create (and word it to apply to all previous examples), but that really doesn't require a new Conversion Book.

The Changes between 1E and 2E reflect that the mechanics system has evolved. Some of the changes are also flavor orientated (1E I think captured fast paced combat better than 2E which is more "balanced" as one sees in Rifts).

Your Welcome.

[Sambot]

i don't think that harmony Gold would allow updated conversion book info for robotech.

any way, since 2nd Ed uses RUE as a baseline source for rules and stuff, the number of actual rules required to bring them to rifts is a lot less than other settings.

)
A Conversion Book really isn't necessary though as gb2098 said (and unlikely for the above reasons). What we need is Errata/Updates to the existing 2E RT material to address internal issues like this. Porting into Rifts though will have to be a GM thing in how they elect to handle it (PERSONALLY I won't allow imports from RT/M2 into Rifts setting). Rifts could do with some explanation on how to handle the piloting skills on the next transformable unit they create (and word it to apply to all previous examples), but that really doesn't require a new Conversion Book.

The Changes between 1E and 2E reflect that the mechanics system has evolved. Some of the changes are also flavor orientated (1E I think captured fast paced combat better than 2E which is more "balanced" as one sees in Rifts).

Your Welcome.

[/quote]

I suppose Harmony Gold might not let it happen but it'd be nice if it did. And I agree there definately needs to be some more clarifications, errata, and updates. Especially for Robotech. I also agree that going between Rifts and Robotech would be easier than other games. It was before but there's always going to be some issue. Like Fuel. How the Coalition would feel about Zentraedi and Tirolieans? Or would they even notice as long as the Zentraedi weren't full size? Could we have a full sized Juicer Zentraedi? Would they consider the UEEG (or CAF) as allies or enemies? They're humans but also not from that Earth. How would the UEEG feel about the Coalition's anti-alien sentiment, their Dog Boys, and psychics? Magic uses? The Kreegor? CAF? etc. Like the sections in World/Deimension books where it talks about relations with neighbors and other world powers.


I'm not sure about Rifts being more balanced. I'd still end up using both editions together though. I do the same for Rifts just to reflect differences in training for the time period. For Robotech though I also get a lot more mecha/robots to use. It also helps fill some of the eras, especially for the UEEF (REF). I like the Marines book but it feels like a mix of very new and very old with bits missing here and there.

[Zer0 Kay]

There's the Kittani K-ATV-RV Hover Jet, K-GTRV Hover Land Skimmer, K-TRF-M Fighter Robot, Triax X-6000 Transformable Sub, BAW-09 Walker-Bike and probably a couple more I'm forgetting. I've never seen a Variable Robot Skill outside of Robotech/Macross though. Robotech has Various Pilot Veritech skills and Macross has the Robot Combat & Flying Skill. Why was there never a Variable Robot Skill for Rifts? Beyond that they're pretty rare? Is it that Robot Pilot Training is so much better that the character can operate the unit as long as they have the matching vehicle skill? An example being Pilot: Motorcyle for the Walker-Bike. What happens if they come across a Robotech/Macross counterpart? Could this character also pilot a Cyclone with no problems? Other than a penalty for piloting the unfamiliar vehicle? Would it work the other way as well with a Cyclone Rider being able to operate a Walker-Bike?

Thanks

PS
Which Variable Robots did I miss?

The three from Rifts: Alaska...

[Mlp7029]

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

If he is in the pilots seat no.

Use your common sense of course the pilot can shoot the rail gun.

[Zer0 Kay]

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

If he is in the pilots seat no.

Use your common sense of course the pilot can shoot the rail gun.

Alright lets use that in this scenario. If a pilot is in an F15E and there is no WSO can the pilot still fire the nuke?

Sorry trick question the answer is no. Both switches must be engaged.

It would be more comparable to liken a giant robot to a tank and not mistake it for power armor. If the stats say only then it is only if it says usually then the designated console may likely be switchable.

[Blue_Lion]

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

If he is in the pilots seat no.

Use your common sense of course the pilot can shoot the rail gun.

My common sense says the pilot is not the gunner. So if a weapon is used by just the gunner the controls are not in the pilot seat.
(Common sense is when they tell you who can use it that is who can use it.)
Your comment amounts to saying the pilot of a Abrams main battle tank can shoot the main gun if you use your common sense.

[eliakon]

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

If he is in the pilots seat no.

Use your common sense of course the pilot can shoot the rail gun.

My common sense says the pilot is not the gunner. So if a weapon is used by just the gunner the controls are not in the pilot seat.
(Common sense is when they tell you who can use it that is who can use it.)
Your comment amounts to saying the pilot of a Abrams main battle tank can shoot the main gun if you use your common sense.

Heck go further.
It says that the pilot of the U.S.S. Iowa can load and fire the main batteries...
...after all they are all just crew on the same vehicle right?

[Blue_Lion]

The big rail gun you are asking if it uses just the gunners attacks or if combines the gunners and the pilots. Well what does the entry say-it says only the gunners attacks. (Not only proves there is a gunner but defeats your whole question showing that it appears the problem is you and not the what is the book says.)

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

If he is in the pilots seat no.

Use your common sense of course the pilot can shoot the rail gun.

Alright lets use that in this scenario. If a pilot is in an F15E and there is no WSO can the pilot still fire the nuke?

Sorry trick question the answer is no. Both switches must be engaged.

It would be more comparable to liken a giant robot to a tank and not mistake it for power armor. If the stats say only then it is only if it says usually then the designated console may likely be switchable.

They do not include usually or only.
PG 249 The rail gun says each attack counts as one of the gunner's attacks while the laser say each attack counts as one of the gunner's or pilot's attacks per melee. As the weapon in question always takes one of the gunners actions it is clearly not being used by the pilot. PG 250 The laser is used by either the pilot or gunner. Simply they tell you who is using actions, thus tell you who is using it, the missiles do not specify who uses them and can be a GMs call at who can use them.

[Kagashi]

How I personally interpret these questions as of RUE:

Well if you really want to make yourself crazy, look at robots with crews of 2 or 3 and try to understand exactly how that would work in the Palladium system..

Does the robot have the combined attacks per melee of all crew members?

As I understand it, No. Each character has his/her own attacks and use the robot as a vehicle to execute them.

Does the pilot do melee while the gunner does the guns?

Certainly possible, yes. Although I'd imagine if the gunner didnt have WP Heavy MD Weapons, he would be shooting wild as the bot maneuvers unpredictably.

Are some guns pilot operated while some are gunner operated?

Sure, why not?

Whose bonuses are used for a dodge/parry?

The combined bonuses between the pilot's (possessive, not plural) own bonuses and those of the Combat Elite/Basic skill. Gunners do not get Combat Elite/Basic bonuses. Only one person can pilot a vehicle at any one point in time, although it is likely pilot controls at both stations and they could swap back and fourth.

When a robot's crew is described as 'one or two', how does it differ when the crew is one versus when the crew is two?

One: The single pilot is burdened with dodging, parrying, moving, shooting, talking on the radio, checking the radar, using countermeasures, trouble shooting problems and the like utilizing only his own attacks and those of the Combat Elite/Basic.

Two: As above, but the pilot can spend his attacks moving the bot and the copilot/gunner can focus on shooting. Its like getting auto dodge if you think about it.

What does the communications guy do?

Going out on a limb here, but I imagine he spends his attacks talking on the radio, configuring crypto, and other communications things so the pilot doesnt have to.

[quote[How about the technical officers when they are present?[/quote]

Again, he spends his attacks doing technical things so the pilot and rest of the crew doesnt have to. Trouble shooting problems, on the spot repairs, radar tech, electronic countermeasures.

[Zer0 Kay]

Simple yes/no question then...

If there's only one person in the UAR-1... can they shoot the rail gun?

If he is in the pilots seat no.

Use your common sense of course the pilot can shoot the rail gun.

Alright lets use that in this scenario. If a pilot is in an F15E and there is no WSO can the pilot still fire the nuke?

Sorry trick question the answer is no. Both switches must be engaged.

It would be more comparable to liken a giant robot to a tank and not mistake it for power armor. If the stats say only then it is only if it says usually then the designated console may likely be switchable.

They do not include usually or only.
PG 249 The rail gun says each attack counts as one of the gunner's attacks while the laser say each attack counts as one of the gunner's or pilot's attacks per melee. As the weapon in question always takes one of the gunners actions it is clearly not being used by the pilot. PG 250 The laser is used by either the pilot or gunner. Simply they tell you who is using actions, thus tell you who is using it, the missiles do not specify who uses them and can be a GMs call at who can use them.

Well then there we go it specifies.