Would Glitter Boy Killers still use Plasma missiles or AP?

[Axelmania]

I'm reviewing Coalition War Campaign in respect to RUE.

The GBK Power Armor (CWC page 110) has 10 Mini-Tube Mini-Missile Launchers on the shoulders. The third paragraph of the description says the GB Killer is armed with 10 plasma mini-missiles. The fourth paragraph mentions this is for destroying the Boom Gun.

It mentions that after the missiles all the other weapons have a short range compared to the boom gun, but even the missiles seem short range. A mile (5280feet) is less than half the range of the Boom Gun (11,000 feet). Even more brutal: 1 on 1 a Glitter Boy will win 75% of the time in open terrain when Glitter Boy Killers have to attack beyond a half mile (2640 feet) which seems odd since they should still be able to get off their missile payload... I guess the difference there is if missiles are dodged or shot down, being within 4000 feet allows the GBK to use its rail gun weapon arms.

I guess the 4000-2640=1370 feet difference is because the Glitter Boy will begin retreating once engaged (ie its dodges will be jet-assisted leaps backward) so if you began at the terminal range of your rail gun you probably couldn't fire it. I would think being within 500 feet would also be beneficial due to the +1 to strike with ranged weapons there.

Even though the GBK has a higher running speed (100mph v 60mph) the Glitter Boy is a better leaper (80 ft vs 20 ft) so in terms of 'how far can I move per melee action' the Glitter boy is 4x as fast even though it is only 3/5 the speed when running. A GBK could close the distance if they focused on running but if they did that they couldn't fire their weapons without it being wild shots. Since they take 11 seconds to go from 0 to 60mph (the Glitter Boy's speed) they couldn't easily switch between full-speed running and aimed shooting.

Plasma initially seems like the best choice since it's D6x10 instead of D4x10. That's 35 average instead of 25 average. A Boom Gun with 175 MDC (ignoring crits/misses) would take (min/average/max) 18/7/5 armor-piercing or 18/5/3 plasma to kill.

Even though the GBK can fire all 10 in a volley, the key amount is probably 4 (so the GB can't dodge) and with that there's no chance of getting enough damage with the APs while there's over a 15% chance of getting 180+ with the plasmas.

RUE has changed things though. Now: APs do double damage on 18+ to strike (including bonuses) so with a skilled pilot that's a game changer. Consider the bonuses even a 2nd level character could have:
*+1 from Pilot Related: Weapon Systems
*Power Armor Combat Elite (Ground Base Power Armor, RUE p 352) +2 to strike (long range weapons)
*+1 to strike from WP Heavy MD (RUE p 361)

+4 to strike means you get at least 18 for 35% of the time. Plasma's 35 average damage is only 40% higher than Armor Piercing's 25 average. If you get an extra 25 damage 35% of the time that's like 8.75 extra damage on average.

The first volley, if the GBK manages to get the drop on the GB, could also get another +2 from being an aimed shot, so would change it to 45% of the time and ~11.25 more damage, bringing the 25 average to 36.25, higher than the 35 average for plasma.

There are also speed-based penalties for hitting things, so the higher flight speed of Armor-Piercing missiles should make them harder to shoot down, which also creates a benefit for them.

Another small benefit they've had all along is double the MDC, meaning if the Glitter Boy is firing some 1D6 laser pistol to shoot down mini-missiles, they're guaranteed to destroy plasmas but there's a 1/6 chance an AP missile could survive.

It seems with these new developments that the CS would be better off giving the GBK a payload of armor-piercing missiles to destroy the boom gun instead of plasma ones.

[J_cobbers]

I'm reviewing Coalition War Campaign in respect to RUE.

The GBK Power Armor (CWC page 110) has 10 Mini-Tube Mini-Missile Launchers on the shoulders. The third paragraph of the description says the GB Killer is armed with 10 plasma mini-missiles. The fourth paragraph mentions this is for destroying the Boom Gun.

It mentions that after the missiles all the other weapons have a short range compared to the boom gun, but even the missiles seem short range. A mile (5280feet) is less than half the range of the Boom Gun (11,000 feet). Even more brutal: 1 on 1 a Glitter Boy will win 75% of the time in open terrain when Glitter Boy Killers have to attack beyond a half mile (2640 feet) which seems odd since they should still be able to get off their missile payload... I guess the difference there is if missiles are dodged or shot down, being within 4000 feet allows the GBK to use its rail gun weapon arms.

I guess the 4000-2640=1370 feet difference is because the Glitter Boy will begin retreating once engaged (ie its dodges will be jet-assisted leaps backward) so if you began at the terminal range of your rail gun you probably couldn't fire it. I would think being within 500 feet would also be beneficial due to the +1 to strike with ranged weapons there.

Even though the GBK has a higher running speed (100mph v 60mph) the Glitter Boy is a better leaper (80 ft vs 20 ft) so in terms of 'how far can I move per melee action' the Glitter boy is 4x as fast even though it is only 3/5 the speed when running. A GBK could close the distance if they focused on running but if they did that they couldn't fire their weapons without it being wild shots. Since they take 11 seconds to go from 0 to 60mph (the Glitter Boy's speed) they couldn't easily switch between full-speed running and aimed shooting.

Plasma initially seems like the best choice since it's D6x10 instead of D4x10. That's 35 average instead of 25 average. A Boom Gun with 175 MDC (ignoring crits/misses) would take (min/average/max) 18/7/5 armor-piercing or 18/5/3 plasma to kill.

Even though the GBK can fire all 10 in a volley, the key amount is probably 4 (so the GB can't dodge) and with that there's no chance of getting enough damage with the APs while there's over a 15% chance of getting 180+ with the plasmas.

RUE has changed things though. Now: APs do double damage on 18+ to strike (including bonuses) so with a skilled pilot that's a game changer. Consider the bonuses even a 2nd level character could have:
*+1 from Pilot Related: Weapon Systems
*Power Armor Combat Elite (Ground Base Power Armor, RUE p 352) +2 to strike (long range weapons)
*+1 to strike from WP Heavy MD (RUE p 361)

+4 to strike means you get at least 18 for 35% of the time. Plasma's 35 average damage is only 40% higher than Armor Piercing's 25 average. If you get an extra 25 damage 35% of the time that's like 8.75 extra damage on average.

The first volley, if the GBK manages to get the drop on the GB, could also get another +2 from being an aimed shot, so would change it to 45% of the time and ~11.25 more damage, bringing the 25 average to 36.25, higher than the 35 average for plasma.

There are also speed-based penalties for hitting things, so the higher flight speed of Armor-Piercing missiles should make them harder to shoot down, which also creates a benefit for them.

Another small benefit they've had all along is double the MDC, meaning if the Glitter Boy is firing some 1D6 laser pistol to shoot down mini-missiles, they're guaranteed to destroy plasmas but there's a 1/6 chance an AP missile could survive.

It seems with these new developments that the CS would be better off giving the GBK a payload of armor-piercing missiles to destroy the boom gun instead of plasma ones.

Good and interesting analysis. 2 points; 1st: there is the whole debate on whether mini-missles can target anything other than the main body under the RUE (which is it's own separate debate/discussion).

2nd: A GB is always going to use it's boom gun to shoot down a volley of missiles unless it's a version that has mini-missles of it's own (Like the Triax variant), because it's the go-to weapon, has good targeting bonuses and more than enough MD to take out the target. Mini missles are a better choice for shooting down mini-missles because of the increased chance to destroy the entire volley.

[Zamion138]

I agree ap would be better for the chance at easier crits if nothing else.
But the likelihood of a 1 on 1 is only slightly less likely than a glitterboy using a laser pistol to do anything. If I was driving a glitterboy my first choice for a secondary weapon would be a mini-missle rifle. But if i couldnt, Id get that a plasma rifle or something else large since weight isnt nearly the same concern.
Most of the time the CS is going to be doing a combined arms mind set, the lone glitterboy is a thing, but a lone CS robot means everything has gone wrong.
Glitterboy killers are found to be very good for demon/devil control according to heros of humanity by the way, again AP would be my choice as so many demons are immune to heat. So the likelihood of ap rounds again goes up.

[Axelmania]

I know it's less of an issue now with RUE's magical 1000-shot payload (and cheap 3 credits per shot) than it was with the GB's original 100-shot payload (and unspecified potentially really expensive round), but even now they might still want to conserve ammunition and save the 'inflicts 30 MD minimum' attack for targets that they couldn't destroy in a single shot from a weaker weapon. Even with boom gun shots now being less expensive than any energy weapon (unless you have a friendly Mystic Knight or borg with recharge attachment to help out) they may not have access to whoever makes these rounds (or their surplus stockpile might be stolen/destroyed) and it might be better to use up e-clips instead.

Glitter Boy accuracy is also more reliable now than it used to be, without the OCC's +1 to strike and Hand to Hand Elite Glitter Boy giving another +2 on top of the +2 that the PA itself gives to the Boomgun (total +5). Originally it was just the +2 for the boom gun and that was it.

GB pilots could get the generic Power Armor Elite and it did give a +2 to strike but that wasn't specificallly for the boom gun, so if it gets applied to guns it would apply to ALL of them and make the glitter boy better at shooting laser pistols too.

One downside to AP missiles is if the Glitter Boy was equipped with a Wilk's Portable Laser Torch, (2D4 setting would do) they could blast an incoming AP missile (or a High Explosive) at 10 feet away and the explosion couldn't harm them. This is even true of short-range AP and light (not medium) High Explosive missiles but in that case due to the 5 MDC you'd want to use the 4D6 MD setting so there's only a 1 in 1296 chance of rolling 4 MD and the short-range missile surviving. The torches get 50 shots per e-clip so they're pretty efficient, even better than the L-20 Pulse Rifle's 40 shots.

Actually... you could even do this with a Wilk's Laser Wand, but you'd have to do a double-tap to inflict 2 MD to an AP missile.

That's one benefit to plasma, if someone used a 10 ft range weapon to blast the missile, they would still take 1/2 damage from being within the 15 ft blast radius. You'd want a 20-shot laser pistol for that sort of thing, like the NG-33 or the Wilks 320. Ramjet rounds are probably cheaper than E-clips if all you need it 1 MD to destroy a plasma mini-missile. As a GB I'd want a gun that inflicts 2 MD at minimum to guarantee destroying armor-piercing mini-missiles though, or if attacked by short-range like with the Flying Titan.

[J_cobbers]

I know it's less of an issue now with RUE's magical 1000-shot payload (and cheap 3 credits per shot) than it was with the GB's original 100-shot payload (and unspecified potentially really expensive round), but even now they might still want to conserve ammunition and save the 'inflicts 30 MD minimum' attack for targets that they couldn't destroy in a single shot from a weaker weapon. Even with boom gun shots now being less expensive than any energy weapon (unless you have a friendly Mystic Knight or borg with recharge attachment to help out) they may not have access to whoever makes these rounds (or their surplus stockpile might be stolen/destroyed) and it might be better to use up e-clips instead.

Glitter Boy accuracy is also more reliable now than it used to be, without the OCC's +1 to strike and Hand to Hand Elite Glitter Boy giving another +2 on top of the +2 that the PA itself gives to the Boomgun (total +5). Originally it was just the +2 for the boom gun and that was it.

GB pilots could get the generic Power Armor Elite and it did give a +2 to strike but that wasn't specificallly for the boom gun, so if it gets applied to guns it would apply to ALL of them and make the glitter boy better at shooting laser pistols too.

One downside to AP missiles is if the Glitter Boy was equipped with a Wilk's Portable Laser Torch, (2D4 setting would do) they could blast an incoming AP missile (or a High Explosive) at 10 feet away and the explosion couldn't harm them. This is even true of short-range AP and light (not medium) High Explosive missiles but in that case due to the 5 MDC you'd want to use the 4D6 MD setting so there's only a 1 in 1296 chance of rolling 4 MD and the short-range missile surviving. The torches get 50 shots per e-clip so they're pretty efficient, even better than the L-20 Pulse Rifle's 40 shots.

Actually... you could even do this with a Wilk's Laser Wand, but you'd have to do a double-tap to inflict 2 MD to an AP missile.

That's one benefit to plasma, if someone used a 10 ft range weapon to blast the missile, they would still take 1/2 damage from being within the 15 ft blast radius. You'd want a 20-shot laser pistol for that sort of thing, like the NG-33 or the Wilks 320. Ramjet rounds are probably cheaper than E-clips if all you need it 1 MD to destroy a plasma mini-missile. As a GB I'd want a gun that inflicts 2 MD at minimum to guarantee destroying armor-piercing mini-missiles though, or if attacked by short-range like with the Flying Titan.

Yep now that GB's have 1K rounds on their back there's little reason to switch to a secondary weapon for missile defense, excepting that shooting down a volley of missiles with another volley of missiles is always more effective. And from the perspective of the GB, you really don't know what type of missile is heading your way, except for maybe the size (mini, short, medium, or long range), so my view is that you want to shoot them down ASAP and with the highest possible bonus to strike available; +5 on the Boom gun is 25% increase in your chance to hit based on the standard chances given on a possible 1-20 and not too shabby.

On a game rule point, while you could Wilk's laser torch/wand them down, since those are technically tools, so there is a question to the GM of whether the GB would still get to use the bonus to strike from WP in laser pistol or not. Also, don't GBs have to larger hand held weapons because their hands are so big? Might not be able to operate standard sized tools very well. IDK more food for thought.

[say652]

I like the Armor Piercing missiles better.
Sure plasma deals more damage but sometimes it isn't about damage.

[drewkitty ~..~]

the concept of the Plasma (super NAPLAM) warheads meshes well with the idea of disarming the GB by disabling the BG. Cause 'in concept' the fuel will cover everything doing damage equally to what it covers.

However, there is the missile rules that missile always strike the mainbody negates the conceptual plausibility of the idea of using plasma warheads on a GB to disable the GB's boomgun..

[Axelmania]

In the context of a universe where Kevin designed the GBK to destroy the boom gun with missiles, that's got to be interpreted to mean that this power-armor is a unique exception to that policy, or the boom gun is considered a distinct enough entity from the main body (like how you could called shot a mini-missile at a bazooka held by a guy instead of the guy) or the plasma radius is wide enough (and goupy enough like you say) to burn the boom gun despite hitting the main body, maybe something other kinds of missiles can't do, which would also explain why they don't use armor-piercing.

Yep now that GB's have 1K rounds on their back there's little reason to switch to a secondary weapon for missile defense, excepting that shooting down a volley of missiles with another volley of missiles is always more effective. And from the perspective of the GB, you really don't know what type of missile is heading your way, except for maybe the size (mini, short, medium, or long range), so my view is that you want to shoot them down ASAP and with the highest possible bonus to strike available; +5 on the Boom gun is 25% increase in your chance to hit based on the standard chances given on a possible 1-20 and not too shabby.

I'd probably just use a single missile for mini/short, a volley of minis would only be necessary for Medium/Long if you weren't guaranteed to destroy them (if you only had high explosive, fire 2 if it's medium, 4 for most long, 5 for proton/nuclearMULTI) or if it was a smart missile firing 4 would prevent it from dodging.

I guess if the Glitter Boy had allies nearby they didn't want to deafen that's another reason to use a different weapon than the boom gun to shoot it down. The noise might also attract supernatural predators in the area toward you if that was an issue.

don't GBs have to larger hand held weapons because their hands are so big? Might not be able to operate standard sized tools very well. IDK more food for thought.

The Triax version says it can use an energy rifle or light rail gun or other hand-helds so I figured sure. Although it's only 9ft tall (standard is 10'5") so maybe it's a unique situation? Not like they need it, they have a built-in laser to do the job. Since the Triax model only stores 100 rounds (I don't think Ultimate modified that) I could see them taking use of that unlimited-payload laser more often to shoot down mini-missiles.

[Blue_Lion]

The GBK destroying the boom gun is from the time when all guided missiles hit the main body. Mini-missiles where unguided and lacked that restriction so they could do called shots, however in RUE that changed as all missiles now hit the main body. Basically rules changed over time, so it does not have to be interpreted as an exception but a reference to outdated rules.

[Maddux]

Think the missiles are there for the GBK to close the group fire them rush the single GB and then attack it from close range. Range is the GB friend if you can have them worrying about incoming fire better chance you can get close enough to really hurt them with the large blades.

[Axelmania]

So instead or being there to destroy boom guns, they are to distract them?

If R.U.E. really prevented this they would remove the text from later CWC reprints. If they didn't then it is still viable. I might as well say that conflicting text is a reference to old robotech missile rules.

[Blue_Lion]

So instead or being there to destroy boom guns, they are to distract them?

If R.U.E. really prevented this they would remove the text from later CWC reprints. If they didn't then it is still viable. I might as well say that conflicting text is a reference to old robotech missile rules.

The subject of called shots with missiles has been debated to death. Missing a line in flavor text(specially given PB track record with editing) does not change/override the rules found on page 362 of rue. "Note: All missiles always strike the main body."

Quite simply with PB track record on editing you are lucky if they update the OCCs to RUE in shadow updates.

[Axelmania]

Primary tactics, the central purpose of the GBK even having the missiles, is more than flavor text, I'd hold it to a higher authority than some floataway reprint.

[Blue_Lion]

Primary tactics, the central purpose of the GBK even having the missiles, is more than flavor text, I'd hold it to a higher authority than some floataway reprint.

Floataway reprint?
Flavor text describes an object rules say what can and can't be done.
If you want to house rule the flavor text overriding a stated rule in a core book that is on your. But the rules where changed and the note was moved away from guided missiles. If the whole section was cut and past with no changes that is one thing but when what is cut and pasted to a different spot shows intent.

The part where they say the "the standard tactic"- is before the stats in the flavor text where they are telling you about the idea. Not in the mechanics (stats/rules).

Odd looking at the weapon load out of the GBK the mini missiles are missing they are not listed as a weapon.

Looking at the MDC by location they do have mdc for Mini missile launchers for 10 missiles.

Giving that it takes 2 gbk to bring down a glitter boy seams the main reason for the mini missiles is to actually kill a GB quickly. 20 plasma mini missiles would be (1d6X10)20 giving a range of 200-1200 with an average almost equal to the GB armor. Also factor in the GB boom gun has less than 200 MD and they talk about using other weapons if the 20 mini missiles did not destroy the boom gun, it is clearly not taking any rules into account and just adding flavor or an idea. (It takes 5 average hits from a plasma missile to do 180 MD, more than a boom gun, if you can not get 5 to hit when you have 20 something is wrong.)

So you want the poorly edited GBK to out way a rule written in RUE when RUE was published after the book the GBK is in. Heck if the GBK even has missiles is a house call as they are not a listed weapons.

[J_cobbers]

I have always wondered why/if they (n)ever fixed the GBK entry in CWC to include the mini-misslies described. Seems like a pretty obvious oversight when you list the MDC locations but forget to put the weapon stats in. But the cutting room floor actually addresses this, see the 5th question down:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

[Blue_Lion]

I have always wondered why/if they (n)ever fixed the GBK entry in CWC to include the mini-misslies described. Seems like a pretty obvious oversight when you list the MDC locations but forget to put the weapon stats in. But the cutting room floor actually addresses this, see the 5th question down:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Basically even if they know it is broke they still do not fix it in editing.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have always wondered why/if they (n)ever fixed the GBK entry in CWC to include the mini-misslies described. Seems like a pretty obvious oversight when you list the MDC locations but forget to put the weapon stats in. But the cutting room floor actually addresses this, see the 5th question down:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Basically even if they know it is broke they still do not fix it in editing.

Yup.

[Axelmania]

The part where they say the "the standard tactic"- is before the stats in the flavor text where they are telling you about the idea. Not in the mechanics (stats/rules).

Text describing what power armor can do is a rule, whether is appears in an introductory paragraph about the armor or if it appears under a numbered weapon stat.

This is a specific rule for the GBK which over-rules any general rules as an exception to them, so Glitter Boy Killers will always be able to target the boom gun.

This doesn't necessarily mean GBKs can target any other areas, or that anybody else can target the boomgun with missiles. It may be just this power armor and just this one location which allows for it.

Giving that it takes 2 gbk to bring down a glitter boy seams the main reason for the mini missiles is to actually kill a GB quickly. 20 plasma mini missiles would be (1d6X10)20 giving a range of 200-1200 with an average almost equal to the GB armor. Also factor in the GB boom gun has less than 200 MD and they talk about using other weapons if the 20 mini missiles did not destroy the boom gun, it is clearly not taking any rules into account and just adding flavor or an idea. (It takes 5 average hits from a plasma missile to do 180 MD, more than a boom gun, if you can not get 5 to hit when you have 20 something is wrong.)

So you want the poorly edited GBK to out way a rule written in RUE when RUE was published after the book the GBK is in. Heck if the GBK even has missiles is a house call as they are not a listed weapons.

[/quote]
Forgetting to re-list a weapon system they mention in the introduction to the subsequent numbered list of weapons systems in World Book 11 (which they later included in World Book 23 and also emphasized online) isn't a big enough of a mistake that I would condemn it as 'poorly edited'.

The main reason for the missiles is stated: they use it to target and destroy the boom gun. The missiles are not intended to destroy the armor itself quickly. That can be done at leisure since then it is relatively defenseless and they can just close in and use their other weapons.

The missiles are going to be designed to guarantee a kill with minimum damage (as I pointed out, two Killers means guaranteed Boom Gun destruction with 9 missiles each hitting). You don't want to gamble on 'average' damage when it comes to Glitter Boys.

As soon as you launch your missile volley you give away your position, and will probably be killed by the Boom Gun before you manage to take it out with the other weapons.

If the first 10-missile volley manages to destroy the boomgun then that's great, the 2nd GBK can save his missiles for another time, but he's there to guarantee a finish if the first volley stops short of average.

The CS is going to assume the GB will react and shoot down a missile in the volley so we should go based on x9 not x10.

I have always wondered why/if they (n)ever fixed the GBK entry in CWC to include the mini-misslies described. Seems like a pretty obvious oversight when you list the MDC locations but forget to put the weapon stats in. But the cutting room floor actually addresses this, see the 5th question down:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

FAQ was missing a rate of fire for them, summary in Xiticix Invasion says all 10 can be fired at once, which still wouldn't guarantee (100 MD) destroying the boom gun with a single guy, but two GBKs firing their full payload at the boom gun would be guaranteed to destroy it even if 1 missile were shot down out of each volley (90+90=180)

[Blue_Lion]

At this point Axelman I have to ask how is lacking a physical stat to back up Flavor text/description not poor editing when they knew it has been missing and never corrected it? Missing physical stats on the unit when the standard is to list every weapon is a editing mistake. Not correcting a known mistake in later editions is also a editing mistake. As the book has a known editing issue that has never been corrected even though the editor knows of it the entry is poorly edited as it has a blatant mistake. (Note: lacking physical stats to get things such as rate of fire is a major thing to be missing. You had to use another book to guess what the rate of fire is.)


Simply put the flavor text in a earlier book does not over ride a blanket rule from a later book. So there is no way A GBK by rules as written (RAW) can do called shots to target a boom gun with missiles that the rules say always hit the main body. Nothing in the entry of the GBK gives a reason that it can do what no other missile can or as an exception to the rule. As I said before RUE mini missiles where not guided and thus could do called shots RUE changed it from a guided missile entry to a blanket all missile entry.



Earlier you said the justification for the over ride is they GBK entry was never changed to reflect the rules change in reprint. So it over rides what you saw as floataway reprint (what ever that is) and the text in the earlier book had greater creditability. But now you just reconised that there is a known error that has never been fixed. In other words the GBK entry was never corrected when it had a known editing mistake, so there is no reason to expect them to change it to reflect the rule change. Basically you just reconised that they do not fix things, so the fact it was not fixed has no barring on what the rules are.

[Axelmania]

It could be that when KS added it to the short-list in XI that he wasn't thinking CWC would get another printing so didn't bother to add it there. Or maybe he kept it out intentionally to save on space.

Talking about earlier/later books, ignoring the first printings, what is the most recent printing we have seen of CWC and RUE?

Blanket rules are over-rideable if we are told something exists which contradicts them, which are we told for this power armor.

We don't know if the omission of the missiles in the weapons systems numbered list was intended or unintended so I can't speculate of the implications of later CWC printings leaving it out.

If you take the stance that leaving the missiles>gun text in could be a mistake, then I would also argue that leaving in the 'all missiles hit the main' text could also be a mistake.

I believe the boom gun could also be considered distinct from the power armor in spite of being attached to it.

In normal situations you can shoot a held gun with a mini-missile. I could for example, shoot a mini-missile at a C-12 laser rifle held by a CS Grunt. The boom gun can exist on its own apart from a glitter boy, so in spite of its MDC being listed along with the power armor, it is considered a distinct unit and does not fall under 'main body' restrictions.

If we look at some other power armor, or cyborgs, or humanoid robots, they also list the MDC of handheld weapons under their profiles, even those these are clearly distinct entities simply being held.

I don't think the boom gun is 'built in' enough to be considered part of the power armor. It is certainly attached to it (a swiveling ball joint connecting to the shoulder, a feed belt leading to the ammo containment unit on the back) but still too separate to be protected under any 'main body' clauses.

[Blue_Lion]

A blanket statement in a rules change after the printing of a reference in flavor text would over ride the flavor text as the defualt is the later book has precedence over riding earlier books. As I said at the time the GBK was written mini-missiles where the only missiles that could do called shots as the restriction was to guided missiles. Later RUE changed it to all missiles in a clear manner. It is not that I am saying at the time the GBK was originally written they could not, I am saying the rule was changed so they can't. The rule was changed after the GBK was written up so nothing in the GBK write up would over ride the rule as it was never corrected.

You countered by saying if they changed the rule they should have changed the CWC book but they never wasted the effort to fix a known error that left the GBK missing a critical peace of information. So the fact the book was not change does not over ride the rule and it does not have a note that it is immune to the new rule.

RUE not only changed it but is the only book with published corrections or errata.

AS to first edition of CWC I do not have a first edition of that book, my copy is 3rd edition.

What you believe about the boom gun is irreverent because what is at the heart of the conflicting text is a rules change.

Note-an arm is attached to the body by a ball joint along with some wires and is just as separate as the boom gun(both are outside the main body) so the same augment applies to an arm as the boom gun(a boom gun is attached by more than just the feed line and ball joint as it needs power). Your logic is very slippery slope and in direct conflict with a RAW.

[Axelmania]

Flavor text is a made-up concept, it is a house-rule, there is actually nothing in the canon distinguishing a difference in authority between the paragraphed description of weapons systems in the start of the PA description and the numbered description of weapons systems that followed. Being assigned numbers and indented doesn't make something more authoritative than something explained in prose.

I contend that you can aim a missile at the boom gun's main body. The boom gun is not a built-in weapons system, it is a hand-held weapon that is merely attached to the power armor to aid in stability. This is a completely different concept. It is similar to how in Warlords of Russia they wear those harnesses to help them handle heavy weapons which they couldn't normally handle with just their arm strength.

Guns and Arms are fundamentally different things in Palladium even though you can point out some similarities that exist between them.

Basically anything where you can use a WP skill (use for handheld weapons) instead of Piloted Related: Weapons Systems (built in weapons) means that it is a distinct entity from any vehicle you may be piloting, whether it's a tank, a robot, or power armor. That distinctness gives it its own 'main body' (whether called that or not) since it is not attached in as fundamental a way as a weapon system is.

Anhur for example, wielding a Boom Gun, could have it shot by a GBK. It is not part of his body. A tiny little swivel joint isn't enough to make it part of the Glitter Boy. It even has its own targetting system, like the Ultimax's Rail-Gun does.

I could see making an exception for the Triax version of the Glitter Boy because it actually does move independently like a limb, being voice-activated. It's also smaller so being unable to target it would make more sense. It also would move in sync with the main body it is attached to, making discerning them more difficult.

Since you don't hand-hold the Boom Gun in the Triax Glitter Boy I think that also means you would use Weapons Systems instead of Weapon Heavy MD for it.

The basic Glitter Boy though, isn't like that, the Boom Gun is too discrete, so it is distinctly targetable on its own, much like a SAMAS Railgun would be. A UAR-1 Enforcer's railgun would be safe though (just like a Triax Glitter Boy) since it's not hand-held.

[guardiandashi]

Flavor text is a made-up concept, it is a house-rule, there is actually nothing in the canon distinguishing a difference in authority between the paragraphed description of weapons systems in the start of the PA description and the numbered description of weapons systems that followed. Being assigned numbers and indented doesn't make something more authoritative than something explained in prose.

I contend that you can aim a missile at the boom gun's main body. The boom gun is not a built-in weapons system, it is a hand-held weapon that is merely attached to the power armor to aid in stability. This is a completely different concept. It is similar to how in Warlords of Russia they wear those harnesses to help them handle heavy weapons which they couldn't normally handle with just their arm strength.

Guns and Arms are fundamentally different things in Palladium even though you can point out some similarities that exist between them.

Basically anything where you can use a WP skill (use for handheld weapons) instead of Piloted Related: Weapons Systems (built in weapons) means that it is a distinct entity from any vehicle you may be piloting, whether it's a tank, a robot, or power armor. That distinctness gives it its own 'main body' (whether called that or not) since it is not attached in as fundamental a way as a weapon system is.

Anhur for example, wielding a Boom Gun, could have it shot by a GBK. It is not part of his body. A tiny little swivel joint isn't enough to make it part of the Glitter Boy. It even has its own targetting system, like the Ultimax's Rail-Gun does.

I could see making an exception for the Triax version of the Glitter Boy because it actually does move independently like a limb, being voice-activated. It's also smaller so being unable to target it would make more sense. It also would move in sync with the main body it is attached to, making discerning them more difficult.

Since you don't hand-hold the Boom Gun in the Triax Glitter Boy I think that also means you would use Weapons Systems instead of Weapon Heavy MD for it.

The basic Glitter Boy though, isn't like that, the Boom Gun is too discrete, so it is distinctly targetable on its own, much like a SAMAS Railgun would be. A UAR-1 Enforcer's railgun would be safe though (just like a Triax Glitter Boy) since it's not hand-held.

except you are WRONG, that is not how the rules work.
Yes you can aim at targets with any weapon EXCEPT missiles. missiles are explicitly ONLY able to strike main bodies as of RUE. a weapon is NOT the main body unless it explicitly says it is the main body. example being some spacecraft where it says "forward 1/3" or similar.

in the Rifts main book the distinction was that most/all mini-missiles were essentially unguided and thus defaulted to the "normal weapon aiming rules" and were thus able to be aimed at locations. all GUIDED missiles (Short, medium, long and cruise) could NOT be aimed at locations because they were SELF aiming IE fire and forget weapons. Essentially you pointed them at a target, and told them to go hit it. they made their own attack roll at +3, or +5 (smart bomb) and no other strike bonuses applied and if there were 4 or more in the volley, the only defense was to shoot some down to reduce the volley below 4 and then dodge.

as of RUE (Rifts Ultimate Edition) ALL missiles follow what used to be the Guided missile clause, even though many most missiles are now "unguided"

and "flavor text" is totally a thing its basically the manufacturer hype that does not include any "rules" for gameplay and can even violate the rules.
my copy of Coalition War Campaign (1st printing - July 1996) the first 5 paragraphs are essentially "flavor text" not rules this is from the glitter boy killer power armor (header) until it says "bold" Glitter boy killer power armor and the next line model type....

in the MDC breakdown it lists the * mini-tube mini missile launchers (10; shoulders) -- 10 each
and no the mini missiles are not listed under the Weapon Systems
the weapons listed are:
1 forearm plasma gun (1) left arm
2 forearm ion gun (1) left arm
3 Forearm grenade Launcher (1) right arm
4 forearm Vibro-Blades (4) a pair on each arm
5 extra weapon arms (2) mounted under the shoulder plates and above the main arms.
6 Triple Barrel Laser Turret (1)
7 energy rifles or other heavy weapons Cannot be used due to the arm design and hand position.
8 hand to hand Combat

from the line right before the model number and on is the gameplay stats.

[Blue_Lion]

I would have to agree with guardiandashi. Most of it was already at least pointed out.
The fact that rules where changed I stated earlier. His counter was if they did not remove the description/flavor text reference in later printings of CWC was it over rid RUE. I also pointed out that the missiles where not listed in the weapons list, a key peace of stats missing never corrected so there is no exceptions for them to fix anything in shadow updates.

Basically the GBK is a known example of bad/sloppy/poor editing that has never been fixed. It is clearly intended to have a weapon system but lacks the stats for it. The faq reference is flawed as it just list one type of missile damage and does not cover rate of fire.

(Note-The weapon system skill applies to any mounted/incorpterated weapon even if it is hand aimed so it would apply to the boom gun, even though he claimed it did not. The skill only requires that the weapon system be part of a vehicle, robot or PA. If it did not there would be no reason for it to be a standard skill for a GB as there are no other weapons systems in a standard GB. Many military vehicles include weapons systems built in/mounted but hand aimed)

[ShadowLogan]

Well in RMB-era
Mini-Missiles could make an aimed shot if you only fired one or two (pg42), but any more counted as burst.

Guided missiles are also (pg41 under Dodging Guided Missiles) said to respond to specific images/signatures, so you could have a guided mini-missile preprogramed to target a boomgun by default instead of seeking out the mainbody. It doesn't help with mini-missiles per say, but the start of this section notes that (emphasis theirs)"ALL the missiles used by the Coalition and most other high-tech forces, are self-guided missiles. Generally, most are preprogrammed to respond to specific images (video camera/sensor mounted in the nose of the warhead), or specific heat or radiation levels which clearly identify the enemy." So if "ALL the missiles used by the " CS is taken to include mini-missiles... it explains the GBK being able to target the boomgun with them.

Now in the RUE-era
They state unless otherwise indicated in specific entries, missiles are unguided (???). They drop reference to the CS/high-tech, but the note about responding to image/sigatures remains as it pertains to guidance.

So one way to take GBK under RUE-rules is that lacking an entry and working off the flavor text indicates that these missiles might be pre-programed to target the boomgun because they have a guidance system.

[Blue_Lion]

Well in RMB-era
Mini-Missiles could make an aimed shot if you only fired one or two (pg42), but any more counted as burst.

Guided missiles are also (pg41 under Dodging Guided Missiles) said to respond to specific images/signatures, so you could have a guided mini-missile preprogramed to target a boomgun by default instead of seeking out the mainbody. It doesn't help with mini-missiles per say, but the start of this section notes that (emphasis theirs)"ALL the missiles used by the Coalition and most other high-tech forces, are self-guided missiles. Generally, most are preprogrammed to respond to specific images (video camera/sensor mounted in the nose of the warhead), or specific heat or radiation levels which clearly identify the enemy." So if "ALL the missiles used by the " CS is taken to include mini-missiles... it explains the GBK being able to target the boomgun with them.

Now in the RUE-era
They state unless otherwise indicated in specific entries, missiles are unguided (???). They drop reference to the CS/high-tech, but the note about responding to image/sigatures remains as it pertains to guidance.

So one way to take GBK under RUE-rules is that lacking an entry and working off the flavor text indicates that these missiles might be pre-programed to target the boomgun because they have a guidance system.

You made left out two important facts.
IN rifts main book it had a rule under guided that they always struck the main body.(Do not feel like going through my storage to find my old copy of Rifts RPG but it is there missiles have been debated several times over the always strikes the main body. So this is nothing new.)

In RUE there is a clear rule about only hitting the main body. PG 362 RUE "Note: All missiles always hit the main body." Rules in latter books trump earlier books.

In other words in rifts main book era guided missiles could never target the boom gun. In RUE no missile can target the boom gun.

[say652]

I would house rule.

Called shot -3 so a 17 to hit or a total miss.

No miss to main body type stuff

[ShadowLogan]

@Blue_Lion
Yes missiles always strike the main body I am aware of that.

I am looking at how to make the GBK flavor text work with rule descriptions as they exist (really in either era) because in order to make the "target the boomgun with mini-missiles" work there are only a few real options:
1. Mini-Missiles can be used to make called shots (I know you can make an aimed shot, which depending on level could be superior to guided strike then, but you are limited to a volley of 1 or 2, anything more is considered a burst in RMB), which I think would over rule the general strike.
2. IF the missiles are guided, then they are pre-programmed to attack the boomgun treating the boomgun as a "main body". It is that pre-programmed nature that IMHO determines what might constitute a main body and not necessarily the MDC by location list in this case (GBK, otherwise I can see it going for center of mass).
3. If the missiles are not guided, could the GBK be treating the Glitterboy and the Boomgun as examples of separate main bodies on the same platform? Precedent exists directly and indirectly for platforms to be considered to have multiple main bodies* under certain circumstances.

I don't like #1, but #3 seems the best possible explanation in this since #2 would require mini-missiles to be guided in RMB-era (so the CS "All" statement over rules the general rule on Mini-Missiles, I'm not sure that is the case though).

*In Rifts the IR-2050 (Japan) and NG-M56 (SB1o, possibly NG 'bot book or SB1r) could be seen as having multiple main bodies because of the exposed detachable vehicles. The FQ "Skyhawk" GB transport (when transporting GBs on the outside), or any open air vehicle (with a guy in EBA) could be seen as having multiple main bodies in play. Then the obvious large vehicles (capital ships mostly)

[Blue_Lion]

The problem is you are going out of your way to justify the text that you are violating the rules. At the time the PA was written you could do called shots with mini-missiles that is no longer the case. Any justification you come up with is ignoring the rule that all missiles now hit the main body, the boom gun like an arm is part of the GB.

[say652]

I say, Common sense over rules bad editing, unless self guided called shots are possible.

Raw be damned!

[J_cobbers]

I say, Common sense over rules bad editing, unless self guided called shots are possible.

Raw be damned!

That's great for your own games, and heck I am sure most of us use house rules, but when trying to figure out a RAW consensus of what the rules mean, on the forums RAW reigns supreme. Otherwise there can be no shared understanding of how to apply the rules.

RUE really did kinda screw over the stated tactics of the GBK, but then so did leaving out the stat block for the mini-missile launchers in CWC. If I was going to make an errata for RUE (I actually have my own PDF copy that I've put in a lot of comments to myself on things I think should be changed but that's not germane to this thread), it would be to include the old RMB mini missile rules (which also included the ability to add your PP bonus to strike too on pg 42 RMB).

But all that being said, there is an official source (cutting room floor) that at least restores the GBK's mini-missile launchers (albeit without the rate of fire so that'll always have to be a house rule unless it gets fixed), but not the ability to make called shots with them. Thems the breaks.

[The Beast]

Would Glitter Boy Killers still use Plasma missiles or AP?

If Palladium had written the rules governing missiles correctly then yes, a GBK would be using AP/HEAT rounds against hard targets, and plasma/fragmentation rounds against soft targets. Unfortunately that's not what was written, so everyone would just use whichever one does the most damage (which in most cases are plasma missiles).

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Axelmania]

Interesting to note that some previous posters have argued that mini-missiles are not true missiles:

Colt47 November 2007 viewtopic.php?p=1616980

Deadboy:
May 2008: viewtopic.php?p=1759976
December 2009 viewtopic.php?p=2115085
July 2010 http://palladiumbooks.com/forums/viewto ... ?p=2216878

RuneKatana November 2012 viewtopic.php?p=2615077

Expecting mini-missiles to be limited by "all missiles" statements is like expecting sub-demons to be limited by "all demons" statements. RUE page 365 clarifies that mini-missiles are actually just "rockets". Simply having 'missile' in the name doesn't make it a true missile any more than having 'dragon' in the name necessarily makes a creature a true dragon subject to dragon-related vulnerabilities.

A second consideration: the 'all missiles' statement, instead of appearing at the front of the 'Damage From Missile Strike' section (implying it applies to all of it) appears after the discussion of "Blast radius or near misses" and roll-with-impact. In that context, you could read 'main body' declarations as only applying in those situations, not all missile situations.

except you are WRONG, that is not how the rules work.
Yes you can aim at targets with any weapon EXCEPT missiles. missiles are explicitly ONLY able to strike main bodies as of RUE.

That's synthesis.

a weapon is NOT the main body unless it explicitly says it is the main body. example being some spacecraft where it says "forward 1/3" or similar.

Weapons are distinct bodies from their wielders. Any rules about main bodies are only applicable if a subject is part of that main body.

Guns are distinctly separate things which can be used on their own. They are discussed as separate things. "The massive seven foot weapon is attached to a swivel unit on the right shoulder" .. I'd let you argue that the swivel unit could count as part of the power armor, but not the gun itself.

The Boom Gun is just one of those examples as we sometimes see where a gun is listed along with a borg, power armor or robot for convenience. Like how the CTT-M20 Missile Rifle is listed under the Terror Trooper on CWC page 109. You can do a called shot at that missile rifle because it's not actually part of the Terror Trooper so it doesn't fall under any 'main body' statements because it's not part of a shared body. It is a distinct stand-alone body which can operate on its own, just like the boom gun can.

The same applies to the FASSAR-20's CV-213 Robot Variable Laser Rifle on page 126. Them listing the MDC on page 125 doesn't actually make it part of the Skelebot. Not even if they happen to use the power pack hand link to give it an unlimited payload and connect it to the robot and its targetting computer. It's still a distinct body, thus its own main body. Handheld weapons are not covered by 'main body' rules, they're different bodies.

and "flavor text" is totally a thing its basically the manufacturer hype that does not include any "rules" for gameplay and can even violate the rules.
my copy of Coalition War Campaign (1st printing - July 1996) the first 5 paragraphs are essentially "flavor text" not rules this is from the glitter boy killer power armor (header) until it says "bold" Glitter boy killer power armor and the next line model type....

You don't have the authority to dismiss text as "hype", your interpretation doesn't de-canonize it. Palladium doesn't divide text into 'flavor'/'rule' classification, it's all true.

in the MDC breakdown it lists the * mini-tube mini missile launchers (10; shoulders) -- 10 each
and no the mini missiles are not listed under the Weapon Systems
the weapons listed are:
1 forearm plasma gun (1) left arm
2 forearm ion gun (1) left arm
3 Forearm grenade Launcher (1) right arm
4 forearm Vibro-Blades (4) a pair on each arm
5 extra weapon arms (2) mounted under the shoulder plates and above the main arms.
6 Triple Barrel Laser Turret (1)
7 energy rifles or other heavy weapons Cannot be used due to the arm design and hand position.
8 hand to hand Combat

from the line right before the model number and on is the gameplay stats.

I'm not sure why you're bothering with this, I never said they were listed under that numbered list, just that their existence is supported by the strategy discussion and MDC given to them. You'll note that the GBK fills right up to the end of the page, so KS may have left them out to cut down on page bleed, it would leech into reprinting the pretty SAMAS if he added the missiles.

Eventually he did add them since people needed to know the RoF was 1/2/4/5/10.

I would have to agree with guardiandashi. Most of it was already at least pointed out.
The fact that rules where changed I stated earlier. His counter was if they did not remove the description/flavor text reference in later printings of CWC was it over rid RUE. I also pointed out that the missiles where not listed in the weapons list, a key peace of stats missing never corrected so there is no exceptions for them to fix anything in shadow updates.

Not filling it in encourages people to buy Xiticix Invasion.

Basically the GBK is a known example of bad/sloppy/poor editing that has never been fixed. It is clearly intended to have a weapon system but lacks the stats for it. The faq reference is flawed as it just list one type of missile damage and does not cover rate of fire.

CWC was not meant to give all possible information. Many of these don't have black market prices, for example, because they're 'too new', even though that would be very useful for a player who acquired one.

(Note-The weapon system skill applies to any mounted/incorpterated weapon even if it is hand aimed so it would apply to the boom gun, even though he claimed it did not. The skill only requires that the weapon system be part of a vehicle, robot or PA. If it did not there would be no reason for it to be a standard skill for a GB as there are no other weapons systems in a standard GB. Many military vehicles include weapons systems built in/mounted but hand aimed)

RUE page 320 "this does not include handheld weapons (see Weapon Proficiencies)"

The classic boomgun is hand-held.

If Palladium had written the rules governing missiles correctly then yes, a GBK would be using AP/HEAT rounds against hard targets, and plasma/fragmentation rounds against soft targets. Unfortunately that's not what was written, so everyone would just use whichever one does the most damage (which in most cases are plasma missiles).

I actually just noticed, even though CWC initially says 10 plasma minis, Invasion lists both AP and Plasma and gives the damage for both, so I guess that answers things.

[ShadowLogan]

The problem is you are going out of your way to justify the text that you are violating the rules. At the time the PA was written you could do called shots with mini-missiles that is no longer the case. Any justification you come up with is ignoring the rule that all missiles now hit the main body, the boom gun like an arm is part of the GB.

I don't think I'm going out of my way to justify the text or violating the rules.

If a missile is preprogrammed to target a certain sensor return (be it image or whatever), then it is possible the missiles for the GBK could be preprogrammed to target B instead of A like they might normally. That works for RMB, it doesn't require jumping through hoops or anything. RUE treats all missiles by default as unguided so it doesn't work here unless we assume these are of the (rare) guided missile variety.

There is also precedent for multi-main-body locations in general, so having the GBK treat a GB as having "multi-main-body" isn't a stretch either.

While the rules state that missiles always strike the main body, that isn't always the case though when they deal damage because be it RUE (pg365) or RMB (pg42), you can intentionally parry/block the missiles so that damage is dealt elsewhere first. So the "always strikes the main body" arguement has at least one exception.

The only other real way is to have the boomgun take splash damage from the main body, which the rules say does not happen (someone else in the radius yes, but you don't take damage to every possible location). But even then you'd be doing 1/2 damage from splash (requiring more missiles on average). This approach though has fallout since it would impact everything that uses radius effect weapons, where the GBK justifications can be limited to just the GBK.

[Blue_Lion]

The problem is you are going out of your way to justify the text that you are violating the rules. At the time the PA was written you could do called shots with mini-missiles that is no longer the case. Any justification you come up with is ignoring the rule that all missiles now hit the main body, the boom gun like an arm is part of the GB.

I don't think I'm going out of my way to justify the text or violating the rules.

If a missile is preprogrammed to target a certain sensor return (be it image or whatever), then it is possible the missiles for the GBK could be preprogrammed to target B instead of A like they might normally. That works for RMB, it doesn't require jumping through hoops or anything. RUE treats all missiles by default as unguided so it doesn't work here unless we assume these are of the (rare) guided missile variety.

There is also precedent for multi-main-body locations in general, so having the GBK treat a GB as having "multi-main-body" isn't a stretch either.

While the rules state that missiles always strike the main body, that isn't always the case though when they deal damage because be it RUE (pg365) or RMB (pg42), you can intentionally parry/block the missiles so that damage is dealt elsewhere first. So the "always strikes the main body" arguement has at least one exception.

The only other real way is to have the boomgun take splash damage from the main body, which the rules say does not happen (someone else in the radius yes, but you don't take damage to every possible location). But even then you'd be doing 1/2 damage from splash (requiring more missiles on average). This approach though has fallout since it would impact everything that uses radius effect weapons, where the GBK justifications can be limited to just the GBK.

accept the rules say they go to the main body.
The very idea you are presenting is in violation of the rule.

[Blue_Lion]

Interesting to note that some previous posters have argued that mini-missiles are not true missiles:

Colt47 November 2007 viewtopic.php?p=1616980

Deadboy:
May 2008: viewtopic.php?p=1759976
December 2009 viewtopic.php?p=2115085
July 2010 http://palladiumbooks.com/forums/viewto ... ?p=2216878

RuneKatana November 2012 viewtopic.php?p=2615077

Expecting mini-missiles to be limited by "all missiles" statements is like expecting sub-demons to be limited by "all demons" statements. RUE page 365 clarifies that mini-missiles are actually just "rockets". Simply having 'missile' in the name doesn't make it a true missile any more than having 'dragon' in the name necessarily makes a creature a true dragon subject to dragon-related vulnerabilities.

A second consideration: the 'all missiles' statement, instead of appearing at the front of the 'Damage From Missile Strike' section (implying it applies to all of it) appears after the discussion of "Blast radius or near misses" and roll-with-impact. In that context, you could read 'main body' declarations as only applying in those situations, not all missile situations.

except you are WRONG, that is not how the rules work.
Yes you can aim at targets with any weapon EXCEPT missiles. missiles are explicitly ONLY able to strike main bodies as of RUE.

That's synthesis.

a weapon is NOT the main body unless it explicitly says it is the main body. example being some spacecraft where it says "forward 1/3" or similar.

Weapons are distinct bodies from their wielders. Any rules about main bodies are only applicable if a subject is part of that main body.

Guns are distinctly separate things which can be used on their own. They are discussed as separate things. "The massive seven foot weapon is attached to a swivel unit on the right shoulder" .. I'd let you argue that the swivel unit could count as part of the power armor, but not the gun itself.

The Boom Gun is just one of those examples as we sometimes see where a gun is listed along with a borg, power armor or robot for convenience. Like how the CTT-M20 Missile Rifle is listed under the Terror Trooper on CWC page 109. You can do a called shot at that missile rifle because it's not actually part of the Terror Trooper so it doesn't fall under any 'main body' statements because it's not part of a shared body. It is a distinct stand-alone body which can operate on its own, just like the boom gun can.

The same applies to the FASSAR-20's CV-213 Robot Variable Laser Rifle on page 126. Them listing the MDC on page 125 doesn't actually make it part of the Skelebot. Not even if they happen to use the power pack hand link to give it an unlimited payload and connect it to the robot and its targetting computer. It's still a distinct body, thus its own main body. Handheld weapons are not covered by 'main body' rules, they're different bodies.

and "flavor text" is totally a thing its basically the manufacturer hype that does not include any "rules" for gameplay and can even violate the rules.
my copy of Coalition War Campaign (1st printing - July 1996) the first 5 paragraphs are essentially "flavor text" not rules this is from the glitter boy killer power armor (header) until it says "bold" Glitter boy killer power armor and the next line model type....

You don't have the authority to dismiss text as "hype", your interpretation doesn't de-canonize it. Palladium doesn't divide text into 'flavor'/'rule' classification, it's all true.

in the MDC breakdown it lists the * mini-tube mini missile launchers (10; shoulders) -- 10 each
and no the mini missiles are not listed under the Weapon Systems
the weapons listed are:
1 forearm plasma gun (1) left arm
2 forearm ion gun (1) left arm
3 Forearm grenade Launcher (1) right arm
4 forearm Vibro-Blades (4) a pair on each arm
5 extra weapon arms (2) mounted under the shoulder plates and above the main arms.
6 Triple Barrel Laser Turret (1)
7 energy rifles or other heavy weapons Cannot be used due to the arm design and hand position.
8 hand to hand Combat

from the line right before the model number and on is the gameplay stats.

I'm not sure why you're bothering with this, I never said they were listed under that numbered list, just that their existence is supported by the strategy discussion and MDC given to them. You'll note that the GBK fills right up to the end of the page, so KS may have left them out to cut down on page bleed, it would leech into reprinting the pretty SAMAS if he added the missiles.

Eventually he did add them since people needed to know the RoF was 1/2/4/5/10.

I would have to agree with guardiandashi. Most of it was already at least pointed out.
The fact that rules where changed I stated earlier. His counter was if they did not remove the description/flavor text reference in later printings of CWC was it over rid RUE. I also pointed out that the missiles where not listed in the weapons list, a key peace of stats missing never corrected so there is no exceptions for them to fix anything in shadow updates.

Not filling it in encourages people to buy Xiticix Invasion.

Basically the GBK is a known example of bad/sloppy/poor editing that has never been fixed. It is clearly intended to have a weapon system but lacks the stats for it. The faq reference is flawed as it just list one type of missile damage and does not cover rate of fire.

CWC was not meant to give all possible information. Many of these don't have black market prices, for example, because they're 'too new', even though that would be very useful for a player who acquired one.

(Note-The weapon system skill applies to any mounted/incorpterated weapon even if it is hand aimed so it would apply to the boom gun, even though he claimed it did not. The skill only requires that the weapon system be part of a vehicle, robot or PA. If it did not there would be no reason for it to be a standard skill for a GB as there are no other weapons systems in a standard GB. Many military vehicles include weapons systems built in/mounted but hand aimed)

RUE page 320 "this does not include handheld weapons (see Weapon Proficiencies)"

The classic boomgun is hand-held.

If Palladium had written the rules governing missiles correctly then yes, a GBK would be using AP/HEAT rounds against hard targets, and plasma/fragmentation rounds against soft targets. Unfortunately that's not what was written, so everyone would just use whichever one does the most damage (which in most cases are plasma missiles).

I actually just noticed, even though CWC initially says 10 plasma minis, Invasion lists both AP and Plasma and gives the damage for both, so I guess that answers things.

The boom gun is not hand held, it is a hand aimed mounted weapon that is incorporated into a Glitter boy.
A hand held weapon is a weapon fully supported by the hands.
Mounted weapons are attached to something to help hold support stabilize and or control.
example- a M2 .50 cal mounted on a tripod is a mounted weapon not a hand held even thou you aim it with your hands. A m240b mounted to gunners mount on a Humvee is a mounted weapon that is hand aimed, but if you dismount the weapon and carry/shoot it then it can become a hand held weapon.

The difference between missiles and rockets in real life is missiles are guided and rockets are not. So the lack of guidance should make most missiles rockets how ever the rules do not do so. So mini missiles may be like rockets but they are sill missiles and included in the missile table.

Note not listing the missiles in CWC does nothing to boos sales of xithix invasion. Not one of the sailing points. It just means the unit is missing an important stat in the book that is suppose to provide it. Allowing people to have justification for saying it has no missiles.
With creative editing you can add the lines for the missiles without having it run to the next page.

[Killer Cyborg]

If weapons count as separate targets than the person holding them, that would mean that a Called Shot wouldn't even be needed to hit the weapon.
Which wouldn't make much sense to me.

[Axelmania]

The only other real way is to have the boomgun take splash damage from the main body, which the rules say does not happen

The only place I recall seeing that explicitly printed was in the online FAQ whose legitimacy is often questioned.

28. Missiles and mini-missiles all have a blast radius, and they all hit the main body. If the main body takes a sixty point hit do the other locations (like the head) take the thirty points from the blast area? And what about blow through? A 'boom gun' does 3D6x10 damage, to a suit of dead-boy armour this gives 10 to 130 points of wasted damage.

Answer: For missile combat, we have deliberately kept it simple so the answer is no only the main body takes damage. There is likewise no rules for blow through. If the GM wants to make it more realistic (and more complicated) for his individual campaign, he is free to modify the rules.

One could argue that these rules are not current though, since it also includes called shots needing 12+ which I believe RUE replaced with different mechanics.

89. I have a question about called shot, do you need a natural 12 or better or just 12 after bonuses?

Answer: 12 or better after bonuses.

So if 89 no longer applies then 28 may also no longer apply.

Cutting Room Floor contains (1) FAQ Pages on the left column (2) Supplemental Material on the right column. I generally figured the stuff on the right to hold a higher canon status than the stuff on the left.

accept the rules say they go to the main body.
The very idea you are presenting is in violation of the rule.

ShadowLogan is correct in pointing out that the 'always' rule is over-rideable by his quoting of the block-sacrifice option. Missing, being shot down, and being dodged, are additional exceptions where the main body is not hit.

I can't help but wonder if this text is referring to the +5 to strike from smart missiles which cannot miss.

The boom gun is not hand held, it is a hand aimed mounted weapon that is incorporated into a Glitter boy.

The boom gun has a retractible gun grip. You grab the grip. After grabbing it, you hold onto it. It is held... by a hand.

It is not really incorporated "into" so much as "attached to". Weapons being attached to you don't negate their being hand-held or make them 'inside' you.

Skelebots and Cyborgs can connect energy weapons to their nuclear power supply but they are still handheld weapons which are not actually part of the borg/bot.

A hand held weapon is a weapon fully supported by the hands.

By that logic a rifle is not a hand-held weapon because you brace it against your shoulder. Not buying it. If you hold it, it's hand-held. Holding something with the hands doesn't necessarily mean supporting it ONLY with the hands.

Mounted weapons are attached to something to help hold support stabilize and or control.
example- a M2 .50 cal mounted on a tripod is a mounted weapon not a hand held even thou you aim it with your hands. A m240b mounted to gunners mount on a Humvee is a mounted weapon that is hand aimed, but if you dismount the weapon and carry/shoot it then it can become a hand held weapon.

I don't think Palladium excludes tripod weapons from 'handheld' classification. Splicers 61 page has a 'Handheld Weapons' heading for the Steel Trooper which includes in addition to rifles, heavy weapons like the railgun.

The SAMAS railgun, as an example, fits your definition of handheld when used by the SAMAS but can also be used as a tripod machine-gun. I would contend it is still classified as hand-held due to the hand holding it while aiming it, even if its weight is supported by things aiding the hands.

Splicers 142 also when mentioning "2. Handheld Weapons" under the Weapon Systems of the Wing Pack, contrasts the phrase with "built-in weapons". You also see this on page 95 of Shadow Chronicles.

I'd also direct you to the example of the VF/A-6I Alpha on page 100. On page 101 you can see an illustration of the vehicle in humanoid form wielding a gun in its right hand. It is clearly more than the hand supporting the gun. You can see an affixation coming out of the top of the gun and connecting it to the forearm. Page 102 says "This weapon is handheld in battloid mode" so we can see Palladium considers a cannon to be 'handheld' even if the cannon is supported by parts of the vehicle other than the hand.

You can see the same thing on page 106's illustration which based on placement is either the VF/A-6H Alpha or the VF/A-6Z Alpha, both of which say they have the same weapons systems as the A-6I. Page 137 integrates the divide between "integral" and "handheld" weapons, no third category being given.

Page 180 begins a section called "Notable Handheld UEEF Weapons" and from page 5's table of contents we can see this includes everything until "Explosivcs & Other Equipment" begins on page 185. Page 184 is the RL-2 Rocket Launcher, which is "shoulder fired". Meaning it rests on top of your shoulder just like a boom gun does... yet it is in a "handheld" section because the hand holds and aims it.

Allowing people to have justification for saying it has no missiles.

There is zero justification in that since MDC is given for the missile launchers and 10 plasma minis is described as its default payload. It just meant until then that the rate of fire was left up to the GM.

If weapons count as separate targets than the person holding them, that would mean that a Called Shot wouldn't even be needed to hit the weapon. Which wouldn't make much sense to me.

You need called shots to hit missiles in HU, or to hit Naruni Micro-missiles in Dimension Book 3, this shows that you can still be obligated to make called shots to hit small things even when someone isn't holding them, it's GM choice.

We do have examples of guns being considered "within a larger target". For example page 238 of Shadow Chronicles:

A character with a Modem W.P. can make Aimed and "Called Shots" (aimed at a specific location within a larger target, such as shooting a gun out of an opponent's hands

This doesn't necessarily apply to ALL guns though, a GM has to call whether the location is "within a larger target". I think this is intended for small weapons like knives and pistols, where the hand covers a significant portion of the weapon and so it would be tricky to strike the weapon instead of the hand, the weapon is basically behind hand cover.

Big weapons like swords and rifles (and certainly giant cannons seven feet in length... more than a PERSON) which project beyond the wielder significantly fall outside the spirit of those rules. In the case of the Boom Gun, the cannon isn't behind cover of the hand, if anything the hand is behind cover of the weapon.

[Blue_Lion]

89 and 28 logic is flawed. 28 is covered by change in rue that is unrelated to 89.

Always is over ridden by special cases as listed in the rules. There is not special rule saying the GBK exempt. Its reference in flavor text/discription as I said was from a time when they could do called shots with mini-missiles. It lost the ability to destroy boom guns mini missiles when RUE came out.

There is strong justification for the debate as the missiles are not listed as a weapon that it uses. So it does have stats for tubes to hold them but lacks stats for the use of the mini missiles. Almost like they decided half way through to drop the missiles and forgot to edit out refinance's to them. The fact that your refuse to see that people can make a justified augment on that fact does not change the fact that it is something that can be debated.

(Missiles always hits the main body and splash damage have been debated many many times and I do not wasting my time as it is clear you do not see the flaw in the logic you are using.)

As I said the standard glitter boy has one weapon the only reason for them to have the weapon system skill is if it applies to boom gun. Your opinion on what a hand held weapon is lacking some support. If you can carry a rail gun without a mount then it is a hand held weapon as it is held in your hand. The boom gun is not held by the hands the hand is used to aim the mount on the glitter boy holds most the weight.

Your counter to killer cyborg is also showing flawed logic. The requirement in special cases to use called shots to hit the main body as does not over ride the fact the missiles only hit the main body. (Note the boom gun is part of the GB armor so the main body is the GB main body.)

Your counter of Cyborgs listing of needing a called shot to weapons is based on your opinion and not any rule so is irrelevant to raw.

It is clear you are making this about what you think and not what the rules say. Continuing is a waste of time, as far as I am concerned you have failed to provide rules support of your opinion and it is not worth debating your house rules.

[Axelmania]

RUE changed what 89 refers to. 89 was presumably written after 28, indicating that 28 was written pre-RUE. The presence of 89 indicates preceding queries to be pre-RUE so 28 is for RMB not for RUE.

GBK is a special case, canon text shows their regular habit, being in prose doesn't mean something isn't a ruling. Enough with the 'flavor'. I can say "All of RUE is flavor text" because it's entirely subjective, stick to terms supported in the RAW.

GBK doesn't lose the ability until we're explicitly told that. Pre-RUE FAQs about area effect damage and radius/roll followup discussion about true missiles (short/medium/long) doesn't qualify.

The OCC skills that a Glitter Boy Pilot has do not necessarily have to relate to using his vehicle. They originally had Demolitions/Demolitions Disposal for example (RUE removed this but gave equal bonuses if selected under Related) and the new version has "pilot one of choice" and both versions have "robot combat basic".

Their training in weapons systems could simply be for potential use in other vehicles.

Also: Weapons Systems' strike bonus might come into play if using their Pylon Impalement attack.

If you note, page 73 mentions that the +2 to strike when shooting the Boom Gun is in addition to WP Heavy Energy Weapons. Weapon Systems isn't mentioned.

Your allegation that you need to be able to carry a weapon with JUST the hand for it to be "hand-held" is unsupported. I provided an example of a shoulder-borne missile launcher being called 'hand-held' which disproves your assertion.

The boom gun is not part of the GB armor. It is a device which can operate on its own. "MDC by Location" and "Weapons Systems" have a history I have shown of listing detached weapons and their MDC even though they are distinctly separate from the power armor.

My counter about called shots is directly related to the rules, I quoted them, I just pointed out they were not all-inclusive.

[guardiandashi]

89 and 28 logic is flawed. 28 is covered by change in rue that is unrelated to 89.

Always is over ridden by special cases as listed in the rules. There is not special rule saying the GBK exempt. Its reference in flavor text/discription as I said was from a time when they could do called shots with mini-missiles. It lost the ability to destroy boom guns mini missiles when RUE came out.

There is strong justification for the debate as the missiles are not listed as a weapon that it uses. So it does have stats for tubes to hold them but lacks stats for the use of the mini missiles. Almost like they decided half way through to drop the missiles and forgot to edit out refinance's to them. The fact that your refuse to see that people can make a justified augment on that fact does not change the fact that it is something that can be debated.

(Missiles always hits the main body and splash damage have been debated many many times and I do not wasting my time as it is clear you do not see the flaw in the logic you are using.)

As I said the standard glitter boy has one weapon the only reason for them to have the weapon system skill is if it applies to boom gun. Your opinion on what a hand held weapon is lacking some support. If you can carry a rail gun without a mount then it is a hand held weapon as it is held in your hand. The boom gun is not held by the hands the hand is used to aim the mount on the glitter boy holds most the weight.

Your counter to killer cyborg is also showing flawed logic. The requirement in special cases to use called shots to hit the main body as does not over ride the fact the missiles only hit the main body. (Note the boom gun is part of the GB armor so the main body is the GB main body.)

Your counter of Cyborgs listing of needing a called shot to weapons is based on your opinion and not any rule so is irrelevant to raw.

It is clear you are making this about what you think and not what the rules say. Continuing is a waste of time, as far as I am concerned you have failed to provide rules support of your opinion and it is not worth debating your house rules.

I agree with blue lion as the "justification" you are using for being able to target missiles at "hand held weapons" doesn't even pass the Judge Judy test. IMO

from Rifts Ultimate edition (in the WP section of skills)
W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons: Includes plasma ejectors,
M.D. rail guns, rocket launchers, mini-missile launchers, and weapon
turrets and cannons built into or which are a key part of giant robots,
tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles. A common skill of designated
gunners. Damage varies with the type of weapon and manufacturer.

under ranged combat pg 360-361
A character with a Modern W.P. can make Aimed and "Called
Shots" (aimed at a specific location within a larger target, such as
shooting a gun out of an opponent's hands, shooting the hand, shooting
an antenna, or tire, or whatever). His penalties are also less when shooting
bursts or wild.

W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons (aka Heavy Energy
Weapons): A familiarity with military class weapons, including grenade
launchers, rocket launchers, rail guns, mini-missile launchers, and
turrets and weapons built into combat vehicles and giant robots. W.P.
Bonuses: + 1 to strike at levels 2, 4, 7, 10 and 13.

Note: A "Called Shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot. not a burst or when shooting wild.

Main Body: The "main body" of vehicles and giant creatures is
typically the largest area of body mass offered by the target. On people/
humanoid creatures that is the upper torso (chest and waist). The main
body of an automobile is the large body mass that covers the frame.
Parts not considered to be part of the main body include the tires/
wheels, legs. arms. hands. sensor cluster, headlights, etc. To strike
something other than the main body. the attacker must make a "Called
Shot," or roll a Natural Twenty. (A Natural 20 always hits its mark, unless
an opponent attempting to dodge also rolls a Natural 20.)

Missile combat (pg 362)
Damage from missile strike (sub heading)
Blast radius or near misses (sub sub heading 2 )
Roll with impact to reduce damage ( sub sub heading 3 )

Note: All Missiles always strike the main body. (appears to be sub sub heading 4 )

pg 363
Mini-Missiles are NOT guided missiles. That's why they require a
roll to strike and why an entire volley either hits or misses the mark.
"Smart missiles" and guided missiles are a rarity on Rifts Earth and
typically reserved only for the largest (and again, rarest) of long-range
missiles.

missile strikes pg 364
No Missile Bonus to Strike: Unless indicated otherwise in a specific
weapon, robot, vehicle or launcher description, mini-missiles and most
types of missiles arc NOT guided and do not get a bonus to strike.
Some launch systems or additional targeting system may provide a + I
to +3 bonus to strike, but even that is rather uncommon. The WP.
Heavy Mega-Damage Weapon skill provides a bonus when firing mini-missiles.

Summary:
while it does say you get a to hit bonus with mini-missiles IF you have Heavy MD weapons, it never actually says you CAN make a called shot with mini missiles. in fact on pg 362 the damage allocation note pretty much says NO it strikes the main body ALWAYS and even then the boom gun explicitly is NOT the main body, its equivalent to a weapon or arm and REQUIRES a called shot to even hit it, which missiles (including mini-missiles) CANNOT DO.

[The Beast]

Quick question here, where in the RMB did it say mini-missiles can be used for called shots? I'm asking because I don't see it listed in their description on page 42, and page 41 clearly states that all missiles strike the main body.

EDIT: I just did a quick check of my Robotech books, and they say the exact same thing.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[guardiandashi]

Quick question here, where in the RMB did it say mini-missiles can be used for called shots? I'm asking because I don't see it listed in their description on page 42, and page 41 clearly states that all missiles strike the main body.

EDIT: I just did a quick check of my Robotech books, and they say the exact same thing.

in my copy of the rifts main book, 4th printing 1992
it doesn't explicitly say that mini-missiles can be aimed however the phrasing of several blocks of information in the pg 38-43 sections (high tech combat) leave it up for interpretation and imply that they Can be aimed if fired 1 or possibly 2 at a time.

Called Shots
A character may attempt to shoot a specific target or area. This is
done by clearly stating what the exact target is before the roll to strike
is made. Once the shot is "called", the player rolls the usual 1D20 to
40
strike. A successful roll, above a 12, hits exactly whatever the intended
target was, unless the opponent dodges.
Called shots can be an important strategy enabling characters to
disable robots and military vehicles rather than destroy the whole unit.
This means a character can destroy specific targets on robots and vehicles,
such as radar antennas, weapon barrels, sensors, mechanical legs,
arms, etc.
Note: Any shot which is not called will strike what is identified as
the main body of the robot or vehicle. The main body is the largest,
bulkiest part of the target and most likely to be hit. If a player calls
his shot, but misses by rolling under 12, but above 4, he/she still strikes,
but hits the main body instead of the specific, "called" target.
I avoid random hit location tables because I feel the randomness is
too flukey and unrealistic.

Strikes: Guided Missiles
Missiles do not enjoy the pilot's combined bonuses to strike. Since
they are all self-guided, missiles are launched as separate units with
their own bonus of +3 to strike. Smart bombs are +5 to strike.
Rolls to strike are made on the usual, twenty-sided die. Missiles can
be launched one at a time (roll to strike for each), or in volleys of two
or more (roll once to determine whether the entire volley strikes its
target).

Dodging Guided Missiles
ALL the missiles used by the Coalition and most other high-tech
forces, are self-guided missiles. Generally, most are preprogrammed
to respond to specific images (video camera/sensor mounted in the nose
of the warhead), or specific heat or radiation levels which clearly identify
the enemy.
Smart Bombs that can identify the enemy and chase it down will
keep going until they find a target, or are destroyed. They can actually
dodge attacks directed at them, and turn around to attempt to hit a
target if it misses, or if the target dodges the first attack.
Conventional Guided Missiles: +3 to strike.
Smart Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge; Two attacks per melee
(until it hits). All missiles always strike the main body.

Mini-Missiles
Many of the smaller robots and power armor suits utilize mini-missiles;
small, powerful bazooka type rockets that inflict mega-damage.
Range is generally half as great as the standard short-range missiles,
but the mega-damage is comparable.
Unlike its larger predecessors, the mini-rnissile is not self-guided
and has no special bonuses to strike. Strike bonuses are the same as
modern weapon proficiencies; aimed (firing no more than two missiles,
+ 3), bursts (firing a volley of missiles in any quantity, 3 to 60) and
wild (firing a missile or volley of missiles without taking time to stop
and aim). A character can also add in any strike bonus from a high
Physical Prowess (P.P.) attribute.
(bolded for emphasis)

In summary, while I would say that the "all missiles always strike the main body" line should be on a separate line instead of run into the smart bomb note the way it is:
Conventional Guided Missiles: +3 to strike.
Smart Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge; Two attacks per melee
(until it hits). All missiles always strike the main body.
vs
Conventional Guided Missiles: +3 to strike.
Smart Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge; Two attacks per melee (until it hits).
All missiles always strike the main body.

editing and layout change mine, In my mind its still pretty clear that the intent, was that all GUIDED missiles always strike the main body, because that's what their guidance does, it aims for the main mass of the target, (main body) and homes on that, with "smart bombs" getting multiple attempts to strike if they miss, and regular guided missiles either going off into la la land, self destructing, or looking for another target in front of them if they miss. (gm's choice)

in the rephrasing for RUE it appears that the intent was to take the ability to aim mini-missiles out.

[The Beast]

If that's the case, they failed. The language is still there, just worded differently. The mini-missile description on RUE page 365 still states that mini-missiles are unguided, and only have a bonus from WP: Heavy MD Weapons. Page 361 states that only rifles, revolvers, pistols, shotguns, and grenade launchers can do aimed shots, but there are no such limitations on what weapons can do called shots.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[guardiandashi]

If that's the case, they failed. The language is still there, just worded differently. The mini-missile description on RUE page 365 still states that mini-missiles are unguided, and only have a bonus from WP: Heavy MD Weapons. Page 361 states that only rifles, revolvers, pistols, shotguns, and grenade launchers can do aimed shots, but there are no such limitations on what weapons can do called shots.

sorry I misspoke. In the rifts main book you could arguably make called shots with up to 2 mini-missiles because they were "unguided" and all other missiles aimed themselves at the main body.

in RUE due to the relocation of the missiles always hit the main body, and the suggestion that most missiles EXCEPT long range, and multi warhead missiles are "unguided" and still always hit the main body the intent was to remove location targeting for missiles.

[eliakon]

Wouldn't by definition you need to be able to hit a target of your choice to make a called shot?
I mean if you always hit X, then you can't make a called shot on Y or Z... because you always hit X.

[Axelmania]

I agree with blue lion as the "justification" you are using for being able to target missiles at "hand held weapons" doesn't even pass the Judge Judy test. IMO

from Rifts Ultimate edition (in the WP section of skills)
W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons: Includes plasma ejectors,
M.D. rail guns, rocket launchers, mini-missile launchers, and weapon
turrets and cannons built into or which are a key part of giant robots,
tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles. A common skill of designated
gunners. Damage varies with the type of weapon and manufacturer.

This means that you can use WP Heavy MD with both built-in weapons and hand-held weapons.

The Pilot Related: Weapons System skill only applies to built-in weapons, it does not apply to hand-held ones.

under ranged combat pg 360-361
A character with a Modern W.P. can make Aimed and "Called
Shots" (aimed at a specific location within a larger target, such as
shooting a gun out of an opponent's hands, shooting the hand, shooting
an antenna, or tire, or whatever). His penalties are also less when shooting
bursts or wild.

Only small weapons like pistols can reasonably be thought of as "in the hands" because a large portion of it (the handle) is enclosed within the hand.

For larger guns like rifles or cannons, the vast majority of the weapon is outside of the hand, so it isn't covered by that text.

Realistically with so many guns being energy weapons, to shoot a gun out of a hand without actually aiming to damage that hand would involve severing the handle from the barrel. That's why it's such a difficult shot, because the hand would get in the way.

Otherwise if you just shot at the rifle you would damage the rifle but not actually generate the force needed to wrench it out of their grip. This would only work with kinetic called shots to disarm.

W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons (aka Heavy Energy
Weapons): A familiarity with military class weapons, including grenade
launchers, rocket launchers, rail guns, mini-missile launchers, and
turrets and weapons built into combat vehicles and giant robots. W.P.
Bonuses: + 1 to strike at levels 2, 4, 7, 10 and 13.

I don't understand why you quote this twice. We're not arguing over whether WP Heavy MD applies to Boom Guns, after all, I think we all agree that it does. The argument is about whether or not it is "hand-held" (thus disqualified from the Weapons Systems bonus) and whether hand-held weapons should be counted as distinct targets or part of the carrier.

Note: A "Called Shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot. not a burst or when shooting wild.

Correct, after all a "shot" is singular, so if you do a short burst as a called burst is technically multiple "called shots" fired in a single action.

Main Body: The "main body" of vehicles and giant creatures is
typically the largest area of body mass offered by the target. On people/
humanoid creatures that is the upper torso (chest and waist). The main
body of an automobile is the large body mass that covers the frame.
Parts not considered to be part of the main body include the tires/
wheels, legs. arms. hands. sensor cluster, headlights, etc. To strike
something other than the main body. the attacker must make a "Called
Shot," or roll a Natural Twenty. (A Natural 20 always hits its mark, unless
an opponent attempting to dodge also rolls a Natural 20.)

I will note that I do not see any mention of hand-held guns being considered "parts" here.

pg 363
Mini-Missiles are NOT guided missiles. That's why they require a
roll to strike and why an entire volley either hits or misses the mark.
"Smart missiles" and guided missiles are a rarity on Rifts Earth and
typically reserved only for the largest (and again, rarest) of long-range
missiles.

This part always confused me. Doesn't a volley of guided missiles also either hit or miss the mark with a single strike roll? I thought only smart missiles made individual strike rolls due to their AI guidance systems and having their own attacks per melee.

the boom gun explicitly is NOT the main body, its equivalent to a weapon or arm and REQUIRES a called shot to even hit it, which missiles (including mini-missiles) CANNOT DO.

I'm not sure what you mean by "equivalent to a weapon", it's obviously a weapon. It's not equivalent to a built-in weapon system though. Built-in weapons (which receive the Weapons Systems bonus to strike) are part of the vehicle. Hand-held weapons are not, they are distinct entities.

Even if the GM rules that the situation requires a called shot to hit a weapon, that would not actually make a hand-held gun "part" of the holder. It is still a distinct thing, a body unto itself.

It is not equivalent to an arm. An arm is a part of the bot/PA, what that arm holds is not part of it.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, having WP Heavy MD allows you to make called shots with everything it covers, just like any other WP skill does. KC agrees with this, pointing out that you could at least make a called shot to a main body behind cover.

It would be reasonable to require a called shot to hit the boom gun if it was obscured in some way, like if you were shooting from the Glitter Boy's left (the power armor would act as cover to the gun) but since the boom gun is merely a gun held by the glitter boy (with a swivel joint filling the rope of strap+sling) it isn't 'part' of it (just happens to have its MDC listed alongside the PA, like we have seen for other units with handheld weapons) and has its own body (all main) which is targetable and damageable by missiles.

You wouldn't need a called shot to hit the K-1000 Spider Defense System (Atlantis 138) or be unable to destroy it with a missile when it is acting alone, so why would you all of a sudden need one to hit it if someone is holding it and have it become immune to missiles in that situation? Boom gun is the same way.

Quick question here, where in the RMB did it say mini-missiles can be used for called shots? I'm asking because I don't see it listed in their description on page 42, and page 41 clearly states that all missiles strike the main body.

EDIT: I just did a quick check of my Robotech books, and they say the exact same thing.

You're reading the parts about Smart Missiles (Rifts) and Reflex Missiles (Robotech Book 1 Macross page 38 lower-left)

I don't think mini-missiles were introduced in Macross, I can't seem to find them. Does anyone know which book first printed stuff about mini-missiles?

Wouldn't by definition you need to be able to hit a target of your choice to make a called shot?
I mean if you always hit X, then you can't make a called shot on Y or Z... because you always hit X.

You can hit a target of your choice with missiles. "Main body" obligations would only divert you from something that is part of that body. Handheld guns aren't, they're distinct objects.

[Blue_Lion]

Quit passing off your house rules and opinions as facts.


The rules make the gun part of the holder.RUE PG 361 "A "Called shot" target specifications. This is a shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target such as a bull's-eye style, an opponent's head, hand, gun, radio, ...."

This is a blanket rule that lacking a limitation on what guns the enemy is using applies to any gun they are using or caring.

Simply put the rule says to shoot your opponent's gun you have to do called shot because it is part of a larger target your opponent.
Note: this does not mean you can not shoot a gun laying on the ground but you can not shoot gun that your opponent is using.

This is a double catch with the GB's boom gun as the boom gun is not only a gun but part of the GB.

[glitterboy2098]

Minimissiles were introduced in the robotech book 5, Invid Invasion. where they are said to be unguided, and usingthe combat rules of the time, could be fired as aimed (1 or 2 missiles only), bursts (large volleys, of 3-60), or wild. and they benefited from P.P. bonuses. (robotech book 5, pg29, bottom right corner)

so basically, under the old WP and combat rules, they were presented as working much more like guns. while it never said they could be used in called shots, the fact that they benefited from WP "aimed bonus" under those combat rules meant that a lot of players interpreted that passage as meaning shots of a single missiles could be used in a called shot, since a called shot was described as an aimed shot at a specific part of the target.

[guardiandashi]

This means that you can use WP Heavy MD with both built-in weapons and hand-held weapons.

The Pilot Related: Weapons System skill only applies to built-in weapons, it does not apply to hand-held ones.

not exactly, it applies to all "integrated" weapons.
using the alpha fighter as an example, when the gun pod is fired it ALWAYS gets the weapon system bonus. as another example Shemarians, get the weapon system bonus for their hand held guns, such as the shemarian railguns and the guns strike bonus as well.

under ranged combat pg 360-361
A character with a Modern W.P. can make Aimed and "Called
Shots" (aimed at a specific location within a larger target, such as
shooting a gun out of an opponent's hands, shooting the hand, shooting
an antenna, or tire, or whatever). His penalties are also less when shooting
bursts or wild.

Only small weapons like pistols can reasonably be thought of as "in the hands" because a large portion of it (the handle) is enclosed within the hand.

For larger guns like rifles or cannons, the vast majority of the weapon is outside of the hand, so it isn't covered by that text.

Realistically with so many guns being energy weapons, to shoot a gun out of a hand without actually aiming to damage that hand would involve severing the handle from the barrel. That's why it's such a difficult shot, because the hand would get in the way.

Otherwise if you just shot at the rifle you would damage the rifle but not actually generate the force needed to wrench it out of their grip. This would only work with kinetic called shots to disarm.

sorry you are using your "house rules" as RAW and it doesn't work that way. WHILE a weapon (or item) is attached to your body or structure it requires a called shot to hit it.
to use a car example you are trying to claim you can just say I am shooting the mirrors or tires off the car and I do NOT have to make a called shot to do so because "reasons"
Sorry it doesn't work that way. if it is not the "main body" it requires a called shot to hit it REGARDLESS of what you are shooting at.

W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons (aka Heavy Energy
Weapons): A familiarity with military class weapons, including grenade
launchers, rocket launchers, rail guns, mini-missile launchers, and
turrets and weapons built into combat vehicles and giant robots. W.P.
Bonuses: + 1 to strike at levels 2, 4, 7, 10 and 13.

I don't understand why you quote this twice. We're not arguing over whether WP Heavy MD applies to Boom Guns, after all, I think we all agree that it does. The argument is about whether or not it is "hand-held" (thus disqualified from the Weapons Systems bonus) and whether hand-held weapons should be counted as distinct targets or part of the carrier.

Note: A "Called Shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot. not a burst or when shooting wild.

Correct, after all a "shot" is singular, so if you do a short burst as a called burst is technically multiple "called shots" fired in a single action.

nope sorry doesn't work that way you CANNOT make a "called shot with a burst" it is specifically excluded it HAS to be a single shot the only exception to this is in "pulse" shots where the laser gun fires multiple pulses as effectively 1 single shot

Main Body: The "main body" of vehicles and giant creatures is
typically the largest area of body mass offered by the target. On people/
humanoid creatures that is the upper torso (chest and waist). The main
body of an automobile is the large body mass that covers the frame.
Parts not considered to be part of the main body include the tires/
wheels, legs. arms. hands. sensor cluster, headlights, etc. To strike
something other than the main body. the attacker must make a "Called
Shot," or roll a Natural Twenty. (A Natural 20 always hits its mark, unless
an opponent attempting to dodge also rolls a Natural 20.)

I will note that I do not see any mention of hand-held guns being considered "parts" here.

since you don't "see any mention of hand held guns being considered parts I bolded it for you"
its in the listing of examples AND etc. which covers anything else

pg 363
Mini-Missiles are NOT guided missiles. That's why they require a
roll to strike and why an entire volley either hits or misses the mark.
"Smart missiles" and guided missiles are a rarity on Rifts Earth and
typically reserved only for the largest (and again, rarest) of long-range
missiles.

This part always confused me. Doesn't a volley of guided missiles also either hit or miss the mark with a single strike roll? I thought only smart missiles made individual strike rolls due to their AI guidance systems and having their own attacks per melee.

inserting your house rules again, sigh prior to RUE All short, medium range, long range, and cruise missiles were "guided missiles" this means that technically the character does not make the strike roll, the MISSILE makes its own strike roll. basic guided missiles get a +3 to hit bonus and 1 attack. "Smart bombs" make all their strike checks at +5, can dodge (basic guided missiles cannot) and get 2 attacks per melee round until they hit, or run out of fuel.

the boom gun explicitly is NOT the main body, its equivalent to a weapon or arm and REQUIRES a called shot to even hit it, which missiles (including mini-missiles) CANNOT DO.

I'm not sure what you mean by "equivalent to a weapon", it's obviously a weapon. It's not equivalent to a built-in weapon system though. Built-in weapons (which receive the Weapons Systems bonus to strike) are part of the vehicle. Hand-held weapons are not, they are distinct entities.

Even if the GM rules that the situation requires a called shot to hit a weapon, that would not actually make a hand-held gun "part" of the holder. It is still a distinct thing, a body unto itself.

It is not equivalent to an arm. An arm is a part of the bot/PA, what that arm holds is not part of it.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, having WP Heavy MD allows you to make called shots with everything it covers, just like any other WP skill does. KC agrees with this, pointing out that you could at least make a called shot to a main body behind cover.

It would be reasonable to require a called shot to hit the boom gun if it was obscured in some way, like if you were shooting from the Glitter Boy's left (the power armor would act as cover to the gun) but since the boom gun is merely a gun held by the glitter boy (with a swivel joint filling the rope of strap+sling) it isn't 'part' of it (just happens to have its MDC listed alongside the PA, like we have seen for other units with handheld weapons) and has its own body (all main) which is targetable and damageable by missiles.

You wouldn't need a called shot to hit the K-1000 Spider Defense System (Atlantis 138) or be unable to destroy it with a missile when it is acting alone, so why would you all of a sudden need one to hit it if someone is holding it and have it become immune to missiles in that situation? Boom gun is the same way.

my point is the boom gun is a weapon AND a sub system of the glitter boy like the arm is, so it has to be targeted with a called shot to hit it, it is not just floating around, or laying on the ground unattended, like you seem to think is the case, it is a sub system and HAS to have a called shot used to damage it.

RE the k-1000 spider defense system its sort of a special case, if it is walking around, or not attached to another structure, then it is its own thing and so to hit its main body you just have to roll a basic strike roll, if you want to damage its legs, sensors or gun, then you would have to make called shots to hit those sub components even though no MDC is described in my copy of atlantis. As soon as someone picks it up, like a glitter boy, it now requires a called shot to hit the K-1000 because its not the glitter boys main body.

Quick question here, where in the RMB did it say mini-missiles can be used for called shots? I'm asking because I don't see it listed in their description on page 42, and page 41 clearly states that all missiles strike the main body.

EDIT: I just did a quick check of my Robotech books, and they say the exact same thing.

You're reading the parts about Smart Missiles (Rifts) and Reflex Missiles (Robotech Book 1 Macross page 38 lower-left)

I don't think mini-missiles were introduced in Macross, I can't seem to find them. Does anyone know which book first printed stuff about mini-missiles?

Wouldn't by definition you need to be able to hit a target of your choice to make a called shot?
I mean if you always hit X, then you can't make a called shot on Y or Z... because you always hit X.

You can hit a target of your choice with missiles. "Main body" obligations would only divert you from something that is part of that body. Handheld guns aren't, they're distinct objects.

again NO NO if you are holding a weapon as long as you are holding it, it requires a called shot to hit the weapon, because its NOT your main body.

the ONLY exception to this concept is in the physical shields like a tower shield or a police riot shield because they effectively provide "cover" IE you are part of a roman legion in a phalanx formation you and your buddies are holding your shields in front of you creating a "shield wall" effectively the only things sticking out are your feet and part of your shins, and a bit of your head (until you duck) so the only target someone has ... is your shield and thus they have to make a called shot to NOT hit the shield.