Cold-blooded clarification

[say652]

Questions on the conversion.

Juicers, do the keep the massive hp&sdc to convert to mdc?

Mages, spells, ppe, etc?

Psionics, abilities, isp, etc?

Do mages and psychics lose previous powers??

[say652]

Example.

My level 7 Operator becomes a Cold-blooded.

I keep four of my previous skills, hp+sdc equals mdc, but!
Are my Operator psionics lost?

[Svartalf]

what's a coldblooded already and where's it from?

[VictoryWeaver]

1) Do you keep the SDC if you stop being a Juicer normally? That's your answer.
2) It does nothing to your Psionics or Magic.

A) Mercenary Adventures sourcebook.

[say652]

So in this case id keep Telemechanics and the level 7 isp pool.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No. One would need to Detox before undergoing Cold Blooded conversion, meaning they would start with the crappy basic stats for detoxed juicers before the conversion is applied.

[Mack]

My opinion is the same as Nekira's, but there no canon text on the subject.

Unfortunately, the OCC description overlooked some of these conversion questions.

[dreicunan]

I disagree on the issue of a juicer. Nothing about the process implies that there is any need to have undergone detox first. The increased hp and sdc may be the result of drugs stimulating growth, but the flesh is there, so it would make sense for them to convert into MDC for the cold one. I'd say the PS number would likely stay as well (but whatever the number is would be robotic strength per Cold One class). The bigger question would be if PE and PP would stay, as how much is result of physical changes and how much is the drugs. Now, a juicer that became mdc in the process couldn't become a cold one without detoxing first, because you have to be sdc to become a cold one.

[Blue_Lion]

It is a matter of it is compatible with the juicer juice, if the cold one is no longer compatible with the drug enchantments he would get the detox penalty. It may not be a matter of the flesh is there but the drugs allowing greater trauma before death that is the SDC HP of the juicer(highly likely).

[Pepsi Jedi]

I disagree on the issue of a juicer. Nothing about the process implies that there is any need to have undergone detox first. The increased hp and sdc may be the result of drugs stimulating growth, but the flesh is there, so it would make sense for them to convert into MDC for the cold one. I'd say the PS number would likely stay as well (but whatever the number is would be robotic strength per Cold One class). The bigger question would be if PE and PP would stay, as how much is result of physical changes and how much is the drugs. Now, a juicer that became mdc in the process couldn't become a cold one without detoxing first, because you have to be sdc to become a cold one.

The "process' and 'ritual' that it requires to become a Cold one, couldn't be done in a juicer. The computers and bio comps and everything would fight and reject the stuff. It'd fight the lowering of temp, the draining of blood, the replacement of blood by something else, etc. You'd have to 'kill' the juicer, THEN conduct the proceedure, and it doesn't work that way, you have to be alive and kicking 'during' the proceedure, which in turn, kinda sorta kills you in the process.

[dreicunan]

A juicer would be able to live long enough with the biocomp disabled to go through the procedure, so one disables the biocomp, drinks the fluid, and has one's veins slit to allow for the rituals to commence. Biocomp off doesn't equal instant death. If it did, they couldn't detox!

@Blue Lion: I see what you are saying, but then I look at a standard juicer vs a Hyperion vs a Titan juicer, and the extra hp and sdc sure seems to correlate to the amount if extra mass that they put on.

[eliakon]

The answer as far as I can tell is "What works for your game" If you don't mind Cold-Blooded with several hundred MDC in your game, then more power to you, go right ahead and say it works. If you don't want such running around, then... guess what? It doesn't work.

[Pepsi Jedi]

A juicer would be able to live long enough with the biocomp disabled to go through the procedure, so one disables the biocomp, drinks the fluid, and has one's veins slit to allow for the rituals to commence. Biocomp off doesn't equal instant death. If it did, they couldn't detox!

@Blue Lion: I see what you are saying, but then I look at a standard juicer vs a Hyperion vs a Titan juicer, and the extra hp and sdc sure seems to correlate to the amount if extra mass that they put on.

There's more to detoxing than just turning off the computer.

Again, open up the Merc Adventures book and look at the proceedure. A living juicer's system would combat it in a half dozen ways.

[dreicunan]

@PepsiJedi:Drink blue stuff that lowers body temperature, then open veins and drain blood to stop heart. So, I suppose that I should spell it out a bit more. You need to disable the biocomp AND the medical nanobots and make sure that there are no drugs in the harness (or remove it, but merely making sure there are no drugs in it would be equally effective and go more quickly), just like they do at the start of detox, except now the juicer just drinks the blue stuff and doesn't have to go through weeks of withdrawal symptoms and debilitating effects. With the biocomp and the nanobots disabled, there is nothing to stop the process from working on them, and it can be done long before the effects of detox would ravage the body.

If there is any aspect of the Juicer process that I have overlooked which could combat a juicer drinking the blue stuff and having the blood drained, please cite it to me.

[mercedogre]

@PepsiJedi:Drink blue stuff that lowers body temperature, then open veins and drain blood to stop heart. So, I suppose that I should spell it out a bit more. You need to disable the biocomp AND the medical nanobots and make sure that there are no drugs in the harness (or remove it, but merely making sure there are no drugs in it would be equally effective and go more quickly), just like they do at the start of detox, except now the juicer just drinks the blue stuff and doesn't have to go through weeks of withdrawal symptoms and debilitating effects. With the biocomp and the nanobots disabled, there ia nothing to stop the process from working on them, and it can be done long before the effects of detox would ravage the body.

If there is any aspect of the Juicer process that I have overlooked which could combat a juicer drinkingnthe blue stuff and having the blood drained, please cite it to me.

obviously when they wrote the Coldblooded OCC, they didn't write in conversion process for every single OCC that came previous to it, so like stated above, if it works for you, then play it that way. One person would play it one way, you play it another ,and some one else will do it differently, that's the way it goes, personally, I'd say the juicer detox needs to be done prior to the 'blue stuff' but seeing as how traumatic both the process of juicing and detox was, i doubt anyone who had gone through that would even want to try yet a third physical transformation process voluntarily, all that mental anguish would probably require a roll or two on random insanity/phobia/disorder charts

[mercedogre]

and to be honest, Juicers love being juicers, i dont see why a juicer would give it up, they live for the thrill, they know they will probably die before they die of the juicer burnout, they revel in it, they brag about it, i just dont see a juicer trading that in for pale skin

[Glistam]

and to be honest, Juicers love being juicers, i dont see why a juicer would give it up, they live for the thrill, they know they will probably die before they die of the juicer burnout, they revel in it, they brag about it, i just dont see a juicer trading that in for pale skin

However Juicers who do successfully undergo Detox are shells of their former selves and tend to re-augment themselves as a Crazy or a 'Borg. In that context, I could see a Cold-Blooded as a viable yet lesser-known alternative.

[mercedogre]

Maybe after detox, but not as a substitution to their current juiced state

[Blue_Lion]

A juicer would be able to live long enough with the biocomp disabled to go through the procedure, so one disables the biocomp, drinks the fluid, and has one's veins slit to allow for the rituals to commence. Biocomp off doesn't equal instant death. If it did, they couldn't detox!

@Blue Lion: I see what you are saying, but then I look at a standard juicer vs a Hyperion vs a Titan juicer, and the extra hp and sdc sure seems to correlate to the amount if extra mass that they put on.

The titian juicer is a special case most juicers do not have all the extra mass. The titian juicer relies heavily on large amounts of growth hormones and require bone strengthing treatment. The average juicer does not get the extra mass. Not sure what happens when a titian juicer detoxes, if they even can.

[Svartalf]

@PepsiJedi:Drink blue stuff that lowers body temperature, then open veins and drain blood to stop heart. So, I suppose that I should spell it out a bit more. You need to disable the biocomp AND the medical nanobots and make sure that there are no drugs in the harness (or remove it, but merely making sure there are no drugs in it would be equally effective and go more quickly), just like they do at the start of detox, except now the juicer just drinks the blue stuff and doesn't have to go through weeks of withdrawal symptoms and debilitating effects. With the biocomp and the nanobots disabled, there is nothing to stop the process from working on them, and it can be done long before the effects of detox would ravage the body.

If there is any aspect of the Juicer process that I have overlooked which could combat a juicer drinking the blue stuff and having the blood drained, please cite it to me.

Let's face it, juicers
a) tend to love the way they are and would not likely submit voluntarily to this procedure
b) the trauma of getting detoxed And remade into a cold blooded would most likely kill them anyway, especially in the weakened state a former juicer is in after getting detoxed
c) I doubt that whoever is administering the cold blooded process would want to cope with the procedure of safely detoxing juicers who may or may not be willing in the first place, and hurrying the detox process would definitely kill the juicer.

Ergo, this is another case lioke the juicer/crazy combo that is just not possible, or at least not practical.

[Svartalf]

A juicer would be able to live long enough with the biocomp disabled to go through the procedure, so one disables the biocomp, drinks the fluid, and has one's veins slit to allow for the rituals to commence. Biocomp off doesn't equal instant death. If it did, they couldn't detox!

@Blue Lion: I see what you are saying, but then I look at a standard juicer vs a Hyperion vs a Titan juicer, and the extra hp and sdc sure seems to correlate to the amount if extra mass that they put on.

The titian juicer is a special case most juicers do not have all the extra mass. The titian juicer relies heavily on large amounts of growth hormones and require bone strengthing treatment. The average juicer does not get the extra mass. Not sure what happens when a titian juicer detoxes, if they even can.

Titan juicers who want to detox likely go straight to full borg conversion, a detoxed Titan would likely not even be able to lift his own body.

[Nightmask]

A juicer would be able to live long enough with the biocomp disabled to go through the procedure, so one disables the biocomp, drinks the fluid, and has one's veins slit to allow for the rituals to commence. Biocomp off doesn't equal instant death. If it did, they couldn't detox!

@Blue Lion: I see what you are saying, but then I look at a standard juicer vs a Hyperion vs a Titan juicer, and the extra hp and sdc sure seems to correlate to the amount if extra mass that they put on.

The titian juicer is a special case most juicers do not have all the extra mass. The titian juicer relies heavily on large amounts of growth hormones and require bone strengthing treatment. The average juicer does not get the extra mass. Not sure what happens when a titian juicer detoxes, if they even can.

A few juicer variants obviously can't detox, like the Mega-Juicer, the Titan is another due to the vast and irreversible physical changes inflicted by the process. The only way you could safely detox one of them is with the rare Reconstructive Restoration spell ritual from the Nightbane setting.

[dreicunan]

Re: Juicers love being juicers and wouldn't want to trade it for being a Cold One:

Some juicers may find that they now have reasons for wanting to live longer than being a juicer would allow. This may occur far too late to have a realistic chance of detox. However, one can become a cold one relatively quickly, skipping the worst of detox and being reborn in a body that does not have physical dependencies on drugs due to becoming a cold one. It also gives them a way to still be better than a typical human. I think that is an option that some juicers would take.

[Glistam]

Being a Cold One has a physical dependency of having to eat raw meat. I wish the write up was clearer about what happens if the character fails to maintain this diet.

[Daniel Stoker]

I wish there was an answer on Magic (PPE) and Psionics (ISP) too.


Daniel Stoker

[dreicunan]

Re magic and psionics: I'd suggest that they keep what they had, but frozen. They are listed as liking to use TW weapons, but no isp or ppe is noted, so the logical conclusion is that they keep what they had before becoming one.

[dragonfett]

Example.

My level 7 Operator becomes a Cold-blooded.

I keep four of my previous skills, hp+sdc equals mdc, but!
Are my Operator psionics lost?

Where does it say that you keep four of your previous skills?

[dreicunan]

Re: The process would kill the Juicer

Of course it would, just like it kills everyone else that goes through it as part of the process before bringing you back to life as a Cold One.

Re: Safely detoxing them first

No need to fully do that. You'd just disable the biocomp and nano-bots, then drink, lower temp, and drain their blood like with anyone else.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No you're misunderstanding.

1) The juicer process would fight the Cold blooded process, jacking up the body temp and rejecting the "Cold blooded juice", etc

2) Thus you'd need ot 'kill the juicer' --before-- the process.. and that's not how the process works.

Thus.. it wouldn't work. For a number of reasons.

[dreicunan]

No you're misunderstanding.

1) The juicer process would fight the Cold blooded process, jacking up the body temp and rejecting the "Cold blooded juice", etc

2) Thus you'd need ot 'kill the juicer' --before-- the process.. and that's not how the process works.

Thus.. it wouldn't work. For a number of reasons.

As I've mentioned previously to this very objection, disable the biocomp and the medical nanobots, make sure that there are no drugs to be dispensed in the drug harness, and there is nothing there to fight the process. Now, one might say "see, they are detoxing," and in a way that is correct, but the major difference is that I see no reason for a Juicer to need to wait until his body has been ravaged by a successful detox to undergo the Cold One process.

I'd imagine that this would become a popular choice amongst Juicers serving in Reid's Rangers who want to bring the fight to the Vamps for a longer period of time.

[eliakon]

I am sensing a circular argument here....
...both sides are arguing the exact same thing... but getting different answers.
Which is not uncommon in Palladium. The Cold Blooded is a good example frankly. We don't have enough information about the process (or honestly about Juicer detox) to make a solid canonical statement... which results in people substituting in their opinions for the missing information. Which is fine for personal games... but when you have different people your going to get different opinions.
Thus, the dispute.
At stake here, as I see it, is the statement "The procedure requires the person to drink a special concoction know as the "cold-blood", a bluish colored, magical potion that eventually replaces the characters blood."
The key being...the word eventually. How long does it take? Do you drink it, and fall into a stupor on the spot? Does it take a day? A week? A lunar month?
With out knowing how long the process takes from 'drink this and start transforming' to "get drained and 'killed'" we can't make a ruling on what the effects on other things would be. If it takes a while, then you would probably need to be detoxed, or the juicer process would likely fight the process... but if its nigh instantaneous then it may very well overwhelm the juicer system. Both are possible, but neither is known certainty.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No you're misunderstanding.

1) The juicer process would fight the Cold blooded process, jacking up the body temp and rejecting the "Cold blooded juice", etc

2) Thus you'd need ot 'kill the juicer' --before-- the process.. and that's not how the process works.

Thus.. it wouldn't work. For a number of reasons.

As I've mentioned previously to this very objection, disable the biocomp and the medical nanobots, make sure that there are no drugs to be dispensed in the drug harness, and there is nothing there to fight the process. Now, one might say "see, they are detoxing," and in a way that is correct, but the major difference is that I see no reason for a Juicer to need to wait until his body has been ravaged by a successful detox to undergo the Cold One process.

I'd imagine that this would become a popular choice amongst Juicers serving in Reid's Rangers who want to bring the fight to the Vamps for a longer period of time.

It's an attempt to twink out a character.

But no, you can't just 'turn off all the juicer stuff' and have a multi stage magical process take over and suddenly fix the unfixable.

if you turn off all that stuff and take it all out, it takes some pretty major doing. Surgery and stuff if memory serves, one that's NOT a guarenteed success and yes would induce detox. It's not like a hit of cocaine or something. The Juicer's body is full of those chemicals 24/7, with 'additional' chemicals spiked in as needed. It's not like they're normal dudes till a split second before they need super strength and speed. They're "Juiced" From a week or two after induction. If you take all that out and yank out all the stuff 'making' them a juicer, to try and get the cold blooded process to work, you're going to kill them or yes, induce the detox badness.

You're implying that they can just turn off the biocomp, tap a vein, pump in some blue stuff and become cold blooded. Juicers are a good bit more complex than that. Their bodies undergo astonishing changes on a dramatic scale.

[Blue_Lion]

If a charter was a juicer and is no longer taking the juice then he will get the penalties for detox. The cold blood would have to be a person who use to be a juicer but not juiced anymore unless it says they are immune to detox penalties they apply. would be my take on how to use it.

[dreicunan]

No you're misunderstanding.

1) The juicer process would fight the Cold blooded process, jacking up the body temp and rejecting the "Cold blooded juice", etc

2) Thus you'd need ot 'kill the juicer' --before-- the process.. and that's not how the process works.

Thus.. it wouldn't work. For a number of reasons.

As I've mentioned previously to this very objection, disable the biocomp and the medical nanobots, make sure that there are no drugs to be dispensed in the drug harness, and there is nothing there to fight the process. Now, one might say "see, they are detoxing," and in a way that is correct, but the major difference is that I see no reason for a Juicer to need to wait until his body has been ravaged by a successful detox to undergo the Cold One process.

I'd imagine that this would become a popular choice amongst Juicers serving in Reid's Rangers who want to bring the fight to the Vamps for a longer period of time.

It's an attempt to twink out a character.

But no, you can't just 'turn off all the juicer stuff' and have a multi stage magical process take over and suddenly fix the unfixable.

if you turn off all that stuff and take it all out, it takes some pretty major doing. Surgery and stuff if memory serves, one that's NOT a guarenteed success and yes would induce detox. It's not like a hit of cocaine or something. The Juicer's body is full of those chemicals 24/7, with 'additional' chemicals spiked in as needed. It's not like they're normal dudes till a split second before they need super strength and speed. They're "Juiced" From a week or two after induction. If you take all that out and yank out all the stuff 'making' them a juicer, to try and get the cold blooded process to work, you're going to kill them or yes, induce the detox badness.

You're implying that they can just turn off the biocomp, tap a vein, pump in some blue stuff and become cold blooded. Juicers are a good bit more complex than that. Their bodies undergo astonishing changes on a dramatic scale.

Feel free to cite a canon example of how the drugs involved would prevent the blue stuff from working. Otherwise, I think that your real objection is given in your statement "It's an attempt to twink out a character." Which it isn't; even with the extra mdc one would end up with and some boosted strength (perhaps pe and pp as well) the resulting character would roughly be on par with a borg unless you convert a titan juicer. Or perhaps it is the objection to them having an easy way out of detoxing, but that always existed in the form of getting turned into a full conversion borg, anyways.

Juicers have drugs in their system, yes, but those drugs aren't permanently in them apart from the biocomp maintaining the levels. Some of their super-human nature is in fact only available when those drugs are pumped in. They do indeed undergo dramatic changes, none of which appear to include an immunity to the body temperature being lowered by a magic potion, immunity to having their blood drained, nor a fatal allergy to either of those two things. Thus, I can see no canon reason why they couldn't immediately undergo the procedure instead of waiting to fully detox and letting their body be ravaged. In addition, my argument is that those dramatic changes don't disappear overnight anymore than an athlete who has used steroids to assist in muscle growth would instantly lose that mass when they decide to stop taking it, and thus they shouldn't be reduced to post detox stats before applying cold one bonuses.

If a player wanted to do this in my games, I'd have them use their current hp and sdc, but I'd have them drop their ps, pp, and pe by half of the bonus that they got from being a juicer before applying the cold one stat boosts (some of those stats surely are due to boosts in the moment thanks to the drugs). I'd probably have them drop their speed bonus to only 25% of what they had, as my reading of the Hyperion juicer origin indicates to me that he enhanced speed is heavily dependent on the drugs actively boosting their performance in the moment, before applying the cold one boost.

[say652]

So as usual i ask for a Canon or intelligent response and it just turns into.

My opinions right and theirs is wrong because i said so.

So not helpful.

[Blue_Lion]

All the bonus a Juicer get are highly dependent on drugs and bio comp without them the stats change to that of a detoxed juicer.

Simply put by the rules if some one is no longer a juicer(Ie of the drugs and biocomp that would fight the process), they get the detoxed stats. Unless there is something in the write up for a cold one that says they are immune to that rule it still applies.

It is not some of there superhuman nature it is all of it only there when they have the drugs. Normally it takes times for drugs to fully be purged out(broke down by) of your system that is the detox time frame. But purging all the blood out of the body will speed up the detox time line.

You are operating under the impression the drugs some how built him up.(the only juicer I see that adds significant mass is the titian juicer) But in truth the drugs are pushing his body to act beyond normal human limits. This happens with some junkies today, the drugs remove the limits on the body and they fight the cops with super human strength and endurance.

Looking at page 80, the steps required for detox. 1 removal of harness and bio comp-because without the drugs the bio comp will kill you.(in the cold one it will likely speed up metabolism to counter lowering the body temp). 2 select a new class (in this case it sounds like you are selecting cold one) 3. The price of drugs. penalties this is the damage the drug abuse did the body(basically the damage done while on the drugs it is not from wasting away) it even talks about how with in the first 2 years there is less damage less of a penalty.

Going by page 80 the penalties are still applied.

[kaid]

and to be honest, Juicers love being juicers, i dont see why a juicer would give it up, they live for the thrill, they know they will probably die before they die of the juicer burnout, they revel in it, they brag about it, i just dont see a juicer trading that in for pale skin

However Juicers who do successfully undergo Detox are shells of their former selves and tend to re-augment themselves as a Crazy or a 'Borg. In that context, I could see a Cold-Blooded as a viable yet lesser-known alternative.

I don't think an active juicer could survive the process the juicer equipment would fight it and either reject it totally or more likely wind up killing the juicer in a permanent fashion. But I could easily see detoxed juicers looking for an "edge" going this route.

[dreicunan]

@Blue Lion: The increased stats are the result of the drugs, but not instantly. That is why it takes them time to get up to full bonuses after conversion. Muscle mass is being developed, and those muscles won't go away overnight just because the drugs aren't there for a day. I don't disagree that the drugs play a role, but starting a detox attempt should not instantly lower all your stats to post detox levels.

@Say652: Canon says that any hp and sdc creature, human or D-bee, can become a Cold One. Juicers are not excluded, so canonically speaking they can indeed become a Cold One. Juicers do not have any specific immunity to the blue stuff nor general immunity to magic. It is the biocomp and nanobots that could interfere with the process, but if disabled there is nothing that indicates that a Juicer would have a resistance to the lowering of the core temperature nor the draining of the blood. Thus, there is no canon evidence that you can't just turn the biocomp and nanobots off, drink the fluid, and have your blood drained until the heart stops, at which point you are dead, and then some magic happens and you come back as a cold one. Overall, while the details are obviously different in the steps, it is similar to the process to make a murder wraith (magic changes the juicer) but without all the evil. Also, the existence of murder wraiths is further evidence that magical processes can affect a juicer and the juicer's class without the juicer having to go through detox.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To disable the juicers 'stuff' would trigger detox. Thus yes, the Juicer would need to survive Detox, prior to the magical ritual that takes days to complete to turn one into a Cold blooded.

You're trying to have it both ways. Juicers are made juicers by the combination of all the changes in their body. You can't 'take it all away, but only a little bit, and keep all the bonus with out the negatives, and then overlay a mystical converson on top of it -too-." that's not how it works.

Either the juicer's body changes combat the attempt to kill him, or they don't. If they don't, then he's no longer a juicer and is detoxed. If they are, he's still a juicer and they would combat the change.

[dragonfett]

To disable the juicers 'stuff' would trigger detox. Thus yes, the Juicer would need to survive Detox, prior to the magical ritual that takes days to complete to turn one into a Cold blooded.

You're trying to have it both ways. Juicers are made juicers by the combination of all the changes in their body. You can't 'take it all away, but only a little bit, and keep all the bonus with out the negatives, and then overlay a mystical converson on top of it -too-." that's not how it works.

Either the juicer's body changes combat the attempt to kill him, or they don't. If they don't, then he's no longer a juicer and is detoxed. If they are, he's still a juicer and they would combat the change.

Basically, what you're saying is that a Juicer can't be currently detoxing while they attempt the conversion, correct?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm saying that we've alot of detail on what a Juicer 'is' and what it takes to 'detox' one, and it's more complicated than just flipping a switch. The Detox proceedure is just that. A proceedure that requires rolls and is not automatic in and of itself.
THe proceedure to 'become' a juicer takes two different proceedures that require 2-6 hours. That's serious surgery. It's not pulling a tooth and implants things into the juicer's body. including of 100s of sensors all over the juicer's body. There's even a side effects table for botched juicer 'creation' and that's just becoming a juicer.

Then once you're a juicer you have their enhanced healing, which would "fight" Any process.. to harm them. Including healing 4 times faster and a +20% to save vs coma and death.

If you deciide to try and detox, the problems are manifest. Not the least of which is that you're convulsing, vomiting, burning up with feaver, compleately helpless, and the book states that, that is the 'easy' part.

To try, you have to take off the drug harness, but that's not enough. The Juicer has an inturnal biocomp system that would fight the cold blooded process, so you have to have surgery to get it 'out' which.. you guessed it. Triggers Detox.

It's important to note, that in the -juicer- section of the book, it clearly states which OOC's a Juicer can become when he's no longer a juicer. Cold blooded is not on the pretty small list. It goes on further to state. "Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to AVOID all means of artificial augmentation..."

So once you take off the harness and surgically remove the biocomp, the penalties set in. They don't set in at the END of detox. They 'set in' It's very clear on the same page

"First ALL the Juicer Bonuses and powers are permiantely gone! The character must be effectivly rebuilt and will never come close to his former life as a juicer."

Then all physical attributes are dropped to 8, etc etc etc., SDC is reduced to 5D6, and even then you roll on the side effects table. which has a 90% chance of getting additional side effects.

Even THEN, after that, you have to roll two out of three successes on the Detox roll. Not a guarenteed thing. Depending on how long one's been a juicer, the rate goes from 89% - 1% ( but who pays millions to become a juicer to only instantly detox?)

So the books are pretty clear. To even attempt a detox you have to have surgery to get the stuff out.
Once you do, the penalties are laid out and it takes weeks of being wrecked, convulsing and throwing up on yourself, to get through it. Even then there's rolls to see if it succeeds, and that's even if the doctor can do it and you survive it all.

Either way with out the computer there to regulate the drugs and your body's systems, your physical stats are reduced to 8 and your sdc is reduced to 5D6.

There's no cravat "You can detox and be chill for a little while, as you attempt to magically juice yourself a second time"

In the book it's very much a binary state. You're a Juicer, untill you undergo the detox proceedure, which is quite invasive and extreme, and then you're not. There's no "Kinda juicer on the back end' state.

Which circles back around to... A -juicer's- systems would fight the cold blooded process.

Someone that's not a juicer, would be 'detoxed' and thus not have all the juicer's benifits, to 'add' onto the cold blooded process.

You'd be 'weaker' than a normal human trying to get juiced, or Cold blooded.

[dreicunan]

The specific list of occs goes on to mention that it also includes other mercenary or man-at-arm occs from other books, so that means Cold Ones are in unless you are going to claim that they aren't a man-at-arms category. Also, the line about avoiding augmentation goes on to note that they are options, and we know from Juicer Uprising that Free Quebec had all their Juicers detox after two years and then they mainly became partial or full borgs, so other materials make it clear that a sizeable number of detoxed juicers DO get augmentation.

You say that detox takes weeks, so what is stopping a juicer from drinking the blue stuff the second he completes the procedures to start detox? If your answer is the drugs in his system, please cite the specific drugs which prevent the magical potion from working its magic or that interact with that potion to cause death before the potion can work and the blood can be drained.

You keep citing the length of the procedure as a complication. Please cite what about a juicer's corpse would cause problems after the blood is drained, because from what I've read about the process the person becoming a Cold One is alive for only a very short portion of it.

Also, please stop claiming that I am trying to say that a juicer would keep "all" the bonuses, as I have clearly not argued that; on the contrary, I made it quite clear that I didn't think that when I posted what I would do if a player wanted to do this in one of my games. What I have argues is that if a juicer becomes a cold one the very day that he starts the detox process, it makes no sense to use the stats from the END of the detox process, especially regarding HP and SDC, because there is no way that enough time has passed for the changes to be reversed instantly.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Cold blooded are supernatural creatures, i.e. a magical OCC, not a 'man at arms occ'.
You're ignoring the pertinent part of the line, where it stipulates straight up that they are likely to avoid augmentation. I.E becoming "A magical Juicer" instead of the technological one they were before.

It takes weeks to get 'through' the side effects. Yes. It doesn't take weeks for the side effects to manifest.

What's stopping him is that it takes surgery. lol. You're acting like it's a switch. Flip. "Oh I'm ok. I'll become a cold blooded now" but it's not. It's surgery to take out the computers with in him that regulate all his body functions and have been supercharging him for years. What's to stop him from taking the blue stuff the second he completes his proceedures is... the constant convulsions and puking all over himself as his body freaks out.

You're ignoring that the book states specificly how hard the detox process is on the ex juicer and that the books stipulate that once you start it, you lose all your benifits.

As for 'what chemical' give me a break. We're not given a list of chemicals and stuff that are 'in' the juice Dreicunan. It's a sci fi thing. We --are-- told that when you take out the computers the person goes into detox, and we're told what happens, when THAt happens. That being that all the psychical stats are lowered to 8, the SDC is lowered, all the benifits of being a juicer are gone.

As for the stats at the "Start" of the detox, there's no stats for 'Start, middle and end" of Detox. It's "Once you Detox, these are the results" You lose all that stuff and end up barely better than a cripple. If you manage to survive it.

Not that I try and bring too much 'hard science' into my science fiction, but your perceptions seem to indicate no real world experience with addicts and detoxing. Yes.. the symptoms are rapid, and intense, and that's just normal 'every day' drugs. Not super science fiction enhanced drugs that can let you flip over cars and jump onto roof tops etc. The books tell us about "convulsing, vomiting, burning up with fever, completely helpless". Not 'After a few days or weeks'.

You have to go through major surgery to even attempt it, and once the surgery is done, those arre the results. If you're lucky and pass all the rolls that you -also- have to do, to survive it.

No, one is not wheeled from the operating table once they rip out the computer that's kept your hyper juiced body alive for years, convulsing, throwing up on yourself and into the magical shop, drop millions more, to then have the cold blooded proceedure to start up.


It's an attempt to try and twink the game system for a munchkin sort of character.

[dragonfett]

**snip**

It's important to note, that in the -juicer- section of the book, it clearly states which OOC's a Juicer can become when he's no longer a juicer. Cold blooded is not on the pretty small list. It goes on further to state. "Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to AVOID all means of artificial augmentation..."

**snip**

Firstly, the Cold Blooded OCC wouldn't have been listed in the RUE, the RUE came out in July of 2005, while the Cold Blooded was presented in Mercenary Adventures which was released in October 2005.

Secondly, that list of available OCC's to the Juicer looking to detox is bigger than you realize. It states:

2. Select a new O.C.C. The character must select a new O.C.C. to continue his life. The Juicer O.C.C. is a combat occupation. The character is trained as a warrior, consequently, only the following O.C.C.s are available to him: Merc soldier, City Rat, Wilderness Scout and Vagabond (or othermercenary or men at arms O.C.C.s from other books like the Gunfighter, Saddle Tramp, Professional Spy, Bandit, etc.). Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to avoid all means of artificial augmentation such as the Combat 'Borg and Headhunter, although they are also options

(The colored text is for emphasis.)

The GMG lists the XP tables for all OCC's (that had been printed up until then), and the Man-at-Arms category has about five pages worth of XP tables (not counting the Juicer XP tables since most of the Juicer Variants have their own section, as does the CS section which also has the CS Juicer XP table). Even if we disallow OCC's that have a psychic portion (such as Cyber-Knights), as well as OCC's that would not be available in the region where the Juicer is undergoing the detox process, that still leaves a plethora of options. And make note that since this list was printed prior to the RUE, it doesn't list the Merc Soldier and Robot Pilot.

[eliakon]

**snip**

It's important to note, that in the -juicer- section of the book, it clearly states which OOC's a Juicer can become when he's no longer a juicer. Cold blooded is not on the pretty small list. It goes on further to state. "Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to AVOID all means of artificial augmentation..."

**snip**

Firstly, the Cold Blooded OCC wouldn't have been listed in the RUE, the RUE came out in July of 2005, while the Cold Blooded was presented in Mercenary Adventures which was released in October 2005.

Secondly, that list of available OCC's to the Juicer looking to detox is bigger than you realize. It states:

2. Select a new O.C.C. The character must select a new O.C.C. to continue his life. The Juicer O.C.C. is a combat occupation. The character is trained as a warrior, consequently, only the following O.C.C.s are available to him: Merc soldier, City Rat, Wilderness Scout and Vagabond (or othermercenary or men at arms O.C.C.s from other books like the Gunfighter, Saddle Tramp, Professional Spy, Bandit, etc.). Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to avoid all means of artificial augmentation such as the Combat 'Borg and Headhunter, although they are also options

(The colored text is for emphasis.)

The GMG lists the XP tables for all OCC's (that had been printed up until then), and the Man-at-Arms category has about five pages worth of XP tables (not counting the Juicer XP tables since most of the Juicer Variants have their own section, as does the CS section which also has the CS Juicer XP table). Even if we disallow OCC's that have a psychic portion (such as Cyber-Knights), as well as OCC's that would not be available in the region where the Juicer is undergoing the detox process, that still leaves a plethora of options. And make note that since this list was printed prior to the RUE, it doesn't list the Merc Soldier and Robot Pilot.

So then are we going to class the Cold-Blood as a "Mercenary or men at arms O.C.C."?
That would be the first question (not that I personally would have a problem with a juicer becoming a cold one... after Detox of course)

But even setting aside the semantics of 'what category of class is the Cold-Blooded' it still requires that you detox before you become a cold blooded.

[dragonfett]

**snip**

It's important to note, that in the -juicer- section of the book, it clearly states which OOC's a Juicer can become when he's no longer a juicer. Cold blooded is not on the pretty small list. It goes on further to state. "Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to AVOID all means of artificial augmentation..."

**snip**

Firstly, the Cold Blooded OCC wouldn't have been listed in the RUE, the RUE came out in July of 2005, while the Cold Blooded was presented in Mercenary Adventures which was released in October 2005.

Secondly, that list of available OCC's to the Juicer looking to detox is bigger than you realize. It states:

2. Select a new O.C.C. The character must select a new O.C.C. to continue his life. The Juicer O.C.C. is a combat occupation. The character is trained as a warrior, consequently, only the following O.C.C.s are available to him: Merc soldier, City Rat, Wilderness Scout and Vagabond (or othermercenary or men at arms O.C.C.s from other books like the Gunfighter, Saddle Tramp, Professional Spy, Bandit, etc.). Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to avoid all means of artificial augmentation such as the Combat 'Borg and Headhunter, although they are also options

(The colored text is for emphasis.)

The GMG lists the XP tables for all OCC's (that had been printed up until then), and the Man-at-Arms category has about five pages worth of XP tables (not counting the Juicer XP tables since most of the Juicer Variants have their own section, as does the CS section which also has the CS Juicer XP table). Even if we disallow OCC's that have a psychic portion (such as Cyber-Knights), as well as OCC's that would not be available in the region where the Juicer is undergoing the detox process, that still leaves a plethora of options. And make note that since this list was printed prior to the RUE, it doesn't list the Merc Soldier and Robot Pilot.

So then are we going to class the Cold-Blood as a "Mercenary or men at arms O.C.C."?
That would be the first question (not that I personally would have a problem with a juicer becoming a cold one... after Detox of course)

But even setting aside the semantics of 'what category of class is the Cold-Blooded' it still requires that you detox before you become a cold blooded.

I am personally not of that opinion, however I never plan on playing a Juicer, or a Cold Blooded, or a combo of both so i really don't care that much about the great detox debate.

[Nightmask]

**snip**

It's important to note, that in the -juicer- section of the book, it clearly states which OOC's a Juicer can become when he's no longer a juicer. Cold blooded is not on the pretty small list. It goes on further to state. "Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to AVOID all means of artificial augmentation..."

**snip**

Firstly, the Cold Blooded OCC wouldn't have been listed in the RUE, the RUE came out in July of 2005, while the Cold Blooded was presented in Mercenary Adventures which was released in October 2005.

Secondly, that list of available OCC's to the Juicer looking to detox is bigger than you realize. It states:

2. Select a new O.C.C. The character must select a new O.C.C. to continue his life. The Juicer O.C.C. is a combat occupation. The character is trained as a warrior, consequently, only the following O.C.C.s are available to him: Merc soldier, City Rat, Wilderness Scout and Vagabond (or othermercenary or men at arms O.C.C.s from other books like the Gunfighter, Saddle Tramp, Professional Spy, Bandit, etc.). Note that after his experience as a Juicer, the character is likely to avoid all means of artificial augmentation such as the Combat 'Borg and Headhunter, although they are also options

(The colored text is for emphasis.)

The GMG lists the XP tables for all OCC's (that had been printed up until then), and the Man-at-Arms category has about five pages worth of XP tables (not counting the Juicer XP tables since most of the Juicer Variants have their own section, as does the CS section which also has the CS Juicer XP table). Even if we disallow OCC's that have a psychic portion (such as Cyber-Knights), as well as OCC's that would not be available in the region where the Juicer is undergoing the detox process, that still leaves a plethora of options. And make note that since this list was printed prior to the RUE, it doesn't list the Merc Soldier and Robot Pilot.

So then are we going to class the Cold-Blood as a "Mercenary or men at arms O.C.C."?
That would be the first question (not that I personally would have a problem with a juicer becoming a cold one... after Detox of course)

But even setting aside the semantics of 'what category of class is the Cold-Blooded' it still requires that you detox before you become a cold blooded.

Where, exactly, does it say that? That's something that requires a declarative statement in the book otherwise it doesn't exist.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The books don't tell you that water is wet. By your logic, water is not wet. Right?

[say652]

Thanks for absolutely no help yo.

Glad i asked how to rule in this unfinshed occ as gm.


God's bless and stop arguing when i asked for advice.

You guys all are arguing, the same fueds as always spamming my thread.
Harshing my mellow.

And not helping me as GM effectively rule on the Cold Blooded occ.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The answers are actually germane to your original query. As per "Do they keep the SDC"

Some people say "No, you have to detox before becoming cold blooded"
Others say "yes, you can have both!"

Thus the debate.

You ask a question on an internet forum and expect total consensus?
Or... dare I say, a question on a Palladium Forum board and... Didn't expect at minimum, spirited debate?