The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

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HWalsh
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The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by HWalsh »

In Heroes of Humanity (it seems) the CS is stated to be running out of resources...

This thread is about what mechanical issues they need to start facing in future books to make that claim feel legitimate.

For example:

111 PA, Emperor Prosek is forced to suspend his "Campaign of Unity" due to lack of resources. In light of this the Coalition States have been forced to reduce their military by 30% reducing the number of troops from 5,000,000 to a smaller, but still impressive, 3,500,000. The CS is forced to take many of their "old style" SAMAS and other equipment from storage to fall back on, lacking the resources to continue to produce newer units.

Or:

112 PA, Chi-Town suffers a rash of riots and demonstrations protesting the CS government over cut-backs to social programs that were necessary to maintain the CS military forces. Emperor Prosek's response is quick and efficient, as well as brutal. Many protesters are shot for their speech and public opinion begins to waiver. This dissatisfaction is a vehicle the Republicans are using in order to position agents close enough to soon make an assassination attempt against Karl Prosek and Joseph Prosek II.

Or:

115 PA, After years of anger levied at the military cut backs that the Prosek Regime were forced to institute following the failed Campaign of Unity, Emperor Karl Prosek was ousted from power. Joseph Prosek II steps up and pledges to make the Coalition strong again. In reality Joseph is behind this. With the Campaign of Unity draining the CS resources the cut backs showed Joseph that his father, though still someone he respects, wasn't capable of running the Coalition States properly. Joseph Prosek II plans to keep allowing his father input but he will no longer allowed to be, publicly, associated with the Coalition Government.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by eliakon »

One thing that would lend some bite to this would be a bit more insight into just what the various supplies of resources ARE.
I.e. mining (and where and what), do they recycle salvage from ruins?
I.e. it would suddenly make more sense that they try to restrict access to pre rifts ruins if it turns out that they have been striping them for recyclables... and that they have been trying to hide the fact that they have already scavenged all the easy to get resources already...
...which in turn explains why they have entered this recent phase of conquests, its to get new supplies...
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by jaymz »

HoH actually states the CS scours the battlefield and collects everything they can if possible to be recycled. It also states posdible parts shortages due manufacturing reductions and they are pulling out old equipment (old style armours etc) to equip all the new recruits they are getting. Add to that food production issues already causing some rationing to occur.....and it the book is talking near future major problems across the board.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by HWalsh »

jaymz wrote:HoH actually states the CS scours the battlefield and collects everything they can if possible to be recycled. It also states posdible parts shortages due manufacturing reductions and they are pulling out old equipment (old style armours etc) to equip all the new recruits they are getting. Add to that food production issues already causing some rationing to occur.....and it the book is talking near future major problems across the board.


I will say it makes sense.

Since around 103 PA they have been running on all cylinders for the Campaign of Unity. It is 110 PA in story modern time. Over 7 years they have managed, in the Campaign of Unity, to take out Tolkeen.

That is it. They ramped up to a record 5,000,000 troops, then for the demon crisis nearly doubled that to 9,000,000 troops. 5,000,000 troops, for the record, heck 1,000,000 troops is the largest army in human history. The largest that I can think of before this was like 300,000 during the Persian Wars. The modern US military has around 160,000 which is the largest military in the planet today.

For 7 years? That is a HUGE amount of resources. They would be burning credits hand over fist.

Edit: To note - Many people assume that the CS controls credits, they don't. Universal Credits pre-date the CS, so the CS can't simply "make more" as the CS can't make Universal Credits as they are a pre-Rifts artifact meaning that nobody can make more.
Last edited by HWalsh on Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by jaymz »

Hoh also flat out says the recent actions of conquest are precisely because of this ever growing shortage of resources.

Edit

Universal credits are an electronic currency anyway so making "more" just devalues the rest.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Library Ogre »

My version of the CS mines old towns and settlements extensively to get old materials for recycling. Something like Chicago is being eaten down to the bedrock in the CS's quest for resources.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by taalismn »

The irony would be if they had to resort to dimensional raiding to acquire materials. The Vanguard becoming glorified highway robbers hitting d-bee worlds/alternate Earths for refined metals, superconductors, rare earths, and the like.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

old ruins being strip mined for resources. (literally even.. wrecking machines turning old buildings into rubble, cranes and bulldozers loading said rubble into massive dumptrucks, which carry it to recycling centers)
also focus on doing the same to their Skelebot graveyards.

emphasis on sending out exploration groups (CS or independent) to locate important resource sources for conquest and mining. (would be a good plothook to bring more CS presence into the New West.. especially now that the demon war will drive up their need for silver)



another thing that could be put in..
whole units (regiment plus sized) explicitly using the old weapons and armor (CA-1, CA-2, CR-1's, C-10's, C-12's, etc) that was officially phased out when the CWC came around. these units should be set up as "cannon fodder" units, with lots of non-CS citizens and others the CS wouldn't mind treating as expendable. only a Cadre of officers would be the better trained troops.

bigger focus on less resource intensive PA's and bots. powerplants that either last a lot shorter time, or use those solid oxide fuelcell systems from NG to bypass the need for harder to find fissile materials. note that if you go the solid oxide fuelcells you could easily bring up an extensive refit of the PA and Bots. less nuclear material used for the PA and bots, means more that can be prioritized for the navy's ships, DHT's and other big transports, etc.
a "budget PA" using an exoskeleton EBA armor with a jetpack might be worthwhile too, especially if said suits are using non-nuclear powersources.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by eliakon »

HWalsh wrote:
jaymz wrote:HoH actually states the CS scours the battlefield and collects everything they can if possible to be recycled. It also states posdible parts shortages due manufacturing reductions and they are pulling out old equipment (old style armours etc) to equip all the new recruits they are getting. Add to that food production issues already causing some rationing to occur.....and it the book is talking near future major problems across the board.


I will say it makes sense.

Since around 103 PA they have been running on all cylinders for the Campaign of Unity. It is 110 PA in story modern time. Over 7 years they have managed, in the Campaign of Unity, to take out Tolkeen.

That is it. They ramped up to a record 5,000,000 troops, then for the demon crisis nearly doubled that to 9,000,000 troops. 5,000,000 troops, for the record, heck 1,000,000 troops is the largest army in human history. The largest that I can think of before this was like 300,000 during the Persian Wars. The modern US military has around 160,000 which is the largest military in the planet today.

For 7 years? That is a HUGE amount of resources. They would be burning credits hand over fist.

Edit: To note - Many people assume that the CS controls credits, they don't. Universal Credits pre-date the CS, so the CS can't simply "make more" as the CS can't make Universal Credits as they are a pre-Rifts artifact meaning that nobody can make more.

Errrr 1,000,000 troops isn't that big really
There are currently at least four militaries with more than a million active soldiers.
9 million is pretty big, especially for the size of the country (that is about the size of the top 4-5 nations on earth right now put together)
But its not impossible either.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

HWalsh wrote:Edit: To note - Many people assume that the CS controls credits, they don't. Universal Credits pre-date the CS, so the CS can't simply "make more" as the CS can't make Universal Credits as they are a pre-Rifts artifact meaning that nobody can make more.


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200
The currency of the modern, civilized world of Rifts Earth is "credits" -- electronic money kept and accounted for by a sophisticated, computerized banking system. Credits can be wire transferred at most CS cities, towns, burbs and outposts, or encoded on "debit cards," small sturdy, plastic cards very similar to pre-Rifts credit cards or telephone cards. Each time the "debit" card is used, the appropriate amount of credits is deducted from the card. When all the credits are used up, the card can be thrown away or saved and taken to an appropriate banking institution, money lender, or merchant to have credits in a savings account transferred onto the card for future use. Similarly, many businesses, banks, money lenders and even the Black Market and some travelling merchants can place additional credits into the card by transferring real and existing funds from their account into the card. This can be done as a loan, to make payments to an employee, to pay a bounty, and commonly when the bank, business or merchant purchases goods (gold, silver, furs, guns, magic items, ancient artifacts, etc.).

The government of the Coalition States (representing 73% of all trade on the continent) is the one responsible for creating this system of money exchange and accounting. It prevents counterfeiting and enables the government (who controls the banking) to monitor the flow of money and commerce. For this reason, the Black Market, arms dealers, smugglers and many operating in the sale and purchase of illegal goods and services prefer to "trade" goods for goods rather than issue "credits" as an effective way to pay and trade people "under the table."

"Universal Credits" are the most common and popular form of credits instituted by the Coalition States. Universals credits are good with all merchants, businesses and banks throughout the Coalition States, as well as in the New German Republic and many independent kingdoms, nations and businesses including Northern Gun, the Manistique Imperium, Wellington Industries, Wilk’s, Iron Heart Armaments, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, Free Quebec, Whykin, Lazlo, New Lazlo, and most Midwest and eastern communities, including the Black Market (although front companies and cover identities are necessary for the latter). Most mercenaries, adventurers, bandits and people of North America will accept Universal Credits as a viable currency! Universal Credits is the main currency of North America.

Since the Coalition States are strong and stable, there islittle danger of the credits becoming devalued or of the banks going out of business. Furthermore, because the system is based on "redeemable" Universal Credits typically available to the "bearer" of the card, it is safe to put thousands, even millions of credits on one or more cards and use the money/credits freely, just about anywhere, without question. In this regard, the CS is unbelievably tolerant in its dealings with questionable businesses. For this system of banking and money exchange to collapse, the Coalition States would have to completely change its banking and monetary system (a monumental and disruptive task), or be destroyed. Ironically, this creates a subtle and bizarre interdependence and symbiotic relationship with both the supporters and enemies of the States!

"Marked" or "Personalized" debit cards in which the funds are available only to one or two specific individuals can also be issued, but each transaction with that card will be recorded, identifying the user, what he or she purchased, and where, giving the Coalition watchdogs potentially incriminating information.

Some independent nations, kingdoms, organizations (like the Black Market) and businesses with numerous outlets throughout the land issue their own form of "credits" on debit cards via an independent banking institution. Individuals who despise the Coalition may elect to use these instead of the CS Universal Credits. Likewise, citizens and supporters of that community or institution may also prefer to use their own credit system, however there are problems with this. First, the security of the credits is based entirely on the stability of the kingdom or organization that issued them. Obviously, such places are much more unstable and vulnerable to disaster than the CS. Second, since the CS will not recognize most other nations and never accepts foreign credits, these money cards have an extremely limited value. In many cases these independent debit cards are only accepted in the kingdom that issued them and worthless everywhere else (and another reason the CS Universal Credits are so popular).

Lazlo and New Lazlo, Tolkeen, and a handful of other independent kingdoms and cities have their own form of "credit" system, but only the joint efforts of Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium have managed to establish a banking and credits/debit system that is accepted and used at many locations throughout the country. Typically, any seller of Northern Gun (NG) and Imperium (MI) weapons and equipment (both using the same credits system and debit cards) will usually accept NGMI debit cards redeemable for credits that can be used at these Upper Michigan kingdoms and with all NG and MI "authorized" gun shops,merchants and traders, as well as most 'Burbs. Furthermore, a handful of other independent towns, cities, merchants and traveling shows use or accept NGMI cards, including Silvereno, Bandito Arms, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Kingsdale, Ciudad Juarez, and scattered towns in the Pecos Empire, Lone Star, New West and Magic Zone.

The third credits/debit system to rival the NGMI and challenge the CS Universal Credits is that of the Black Market. Their debit card is a simple, encoded black plastic card. It is good at virtually all Black Market operations scattered throughout the world, including the Coalition States, and accepted by all official Black Market agents, operatives and freelancers, as well as by most Juicers, Crazies, Gunslingers, Bounty Hunters, mercenaries, spies, smugglers, bandits and criminals of all kind. Black Credits, as this illegal, underground system of banking and debit cards are known, is welcome at Coalition Burbs, most Body-Chop-Shops, the Pecos Empire, Bandito Arms, and many (not all) merchants and businesses at Tolkeen, New Lazlo, Whykin, Kingsdale, Free Quebec, Lone Star and scattered towns in the New West.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
jaymz wrote:HoH actually states the CS scours the battlefield and collects everything they can if possible to be recycled. It also states posdible parts shortages due manufacturing reductions and they are pulling out old equipment (old style armours etc) to equip all the new recruits they are getting. Add to that food production issues already causing some rationing to occur.....and it the book is talking near future major problems across the board.


I will say it makes sense.

Since around 103 PA they have been running on all cylinders for the Campaign of Unity. It is 110 PA in story modern time. Over 7 years they have managed, in the Campaign of Unity, to take out Tolkeen.

That is it. They ramped up to a record 5,000,000 troops, then for the demon crisis nearly doubled that to 9,000,000 troops. 5,000,000 troops, for the record, heck 1,000,000 troops is the largest army in human history. The largest that I can think of before this was like 300,000 during the Persian Wars. The modern US military has around 160,000 which is the largest military in the planet today.

For 7 years? That is a HUGE amount of resources. They would be burning credits hand over fist.

Edit: To note - Many people assume that the CS controls credits, they don't. Universal Credits pre-date the CS, so the CS can't simply "make more" as the CS can't make Universal Credits as they are a pre-Rifts artifact meaning that nobody can make more.

Errrr 1,000,000 troops isn't that big really
There are currently at least four militaries with more than a million active soldiers.
9 million is pretty big, especially for the size of the country (that is about the size of the top 4-5 nations on earth right now put together)
But its not impossible either.


North Korea has an army of 1 million+, for example, and they have a population of less than 25 million people, in a land area about the size of Pennsylvania.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by jaymz »

taalismn wrote:The irony would be if they had to resort to dimensional raiding to acquire materials. The Vanguard becoming glorified highway robbers hitting d-bee worlds/alternate Earths for refined metals, superconductors, rare earths, and the like.


Wait for it *cough*disavowed*cough*
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by jaymz »

glitterboy2098 wrote:old ruins being strip mined for resources. (literally even.. wrecking machines turning old buildings into rubble, cranes and bulldozers loading said rubble into massive dumptrucks, which carry it to recycling centers)
also focus on doing the same to their Skelebot graveyards.

emphasis on sending out exploration groups (CS or independent) to locate important resource sources for conquest and mining. (would be a good plothook to bring more CS presence into the New West.. especially now that the demon war will drive up their need for silver)



another thing that could be put in..
whole units (regiment plus sized) explicitly using the old weapons and armor (CA-1, CA-2, CR-1's, C-10's, C-12's, etc) that was officially phased out when the CWC came around. these units should be set up as "cannon fodder" units, with lots of non-CS citizens and others the CS wouldn't mind treating as expendable. only a Cadre of officers would be the better trained troops.

bigger focus on less resource intensive PA's and bots. powerplants that either last a lot shorter time, or use those solid oxide fuelcell systems from NG to bypass the need for harder to find fissile materials. note that if you go the solid oxide fuelcells you could easily bring up an extensive refit of the PA and Bots. less nuclear material used for the PA and bots, means more that can be prioritized for the navy's ships, DHT's and other big transports, etc.
a "budget PA" using an exoskeleton EBA armor with a jetpack might be worthwhile too, especially if said suits are using non-nuclear powersources.


You need to get hoh. Much what you discuss has been mentioned previous books and hoh. And the ca-6ex is exactly the exo you are talking about.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Jorick »

I think we can further imagine the resource cost of life in general in the Coalition to be very different than it is in our current reality.

I imagine that life in both the large cities and the small Coalition towns is utopian. Robots can handle most of the labor. Given our current technological trends one can imagine that most manufaturing (including food) is done via a combo of robot and whatever the future of "3D printing" is. Furthermore, very common resources, like carbon, can account for most of the resources used by the Coalition, from buildings to armor to food (rarer metals and minerals would be required to augment the carbon etc. in many cases, but the greater mass of large robots or large ships etc. don't really have to be pure steel anymore). A lot of material (plastics) can be grown (bioplastics) meaning drilling for petroleum would not be necessary.

Farming is efficient, but anyway basic food can be made from basic stuff, easily mass produced, once again by robots. If they can grow dog-men they can grow MREs (which means feeding soldiers is relatively costless). Water might be a big issue.

Energy is also relatively free (fusion reactors everywhere--fallout, and cleaning it, may be a big issue).

In general, I think the average CS citizen can live cost free, and the Coalition does not have to pay for the majority of the labor required to sustain that level of quality of life (robots). The military has to feed and shelter its troops, and deal with upkeep of equipment. The equipment (and maybe food?) needs relatively rare resources which must be mined or recycled.

Thus, credits in the CS are for "luxury" goods. The CS doesn't have to worry very much about their economy when they print new money. The robots already work for nothing. People can leave home in huge numbers to work for the military without fear of creating much of a labor shortage. Services and professions staffed by humans (instead of robots) and the robot minders are all that are required to maintain the luxury credit economy (and they dont need to be paid much, cause they get the necessities for free). If there's a huge gap between the lifestyle of a Coalition grunt (I eat real apples and water born fish! And I own my own car, instead of relying on the on-demand robot-taxi cube!) and the lifestyle of the person who stayed at home to eat free protein mush and watch robot fights then that only serves the Coalition's recruitment purposes.

In terms of money, it should be easy for the CS to maintain an enormous military relative to the size of their population. The CS needs to worry only about the rare minerals (see above), the time needed to produce material (they're fighting the Xiticix and the Demons today, not tomorrow), and the body count (there's a lot of Demons and Xiticix to match bodies with), which is imaginably difficult, given the hostile nature of the world, and the aggressive attitude of the CS. Resources are a problem, but the problems should look a lot different than they do today.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by jaymz »

Except in canon, the CS grows its food naturally by and large via farms in Missouri mostly as well as hydroponics plants and does use petroleum for plastics production etc along with mined minerals and metals.

What you suggest would certainly be the way the CS SHOULD be looking to go moving forward though. I am all on board with that myself.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

to be honest, Food would probably the one set of resources the CS isn't short on. they have a ton of agriculturally suitable territory. but those same areas tend to be a bit light on metals, rare earths, etc.

and especially if they have genetically modified "super crops" that reduce the need for pesticides, fertilizers, and weed-killers and can grow with less water, etc.. in addition to their canon "super-livestock", they should have no problem obtaining massive harvests of grain, vegetables, fruit, meat, etc. and they may well have greenhouses and engineered versions to let them grow stuff that normally wouldn't in the climate of the CS states. also i'd expect a fair amount of agriculturally sourced medicines being a CS resource., for the same reasons.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by jaymz »

Hoh refutes that to the point that rationing is already taking place in areas with the lower and middle classes.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

taalismn wrote:The irony would be if they had to resort to dimensional raiding to acquire materials. The Vanguard becoming glorified highway robbers hitting d-bee worlds/alternate Earths for refined metals, superconductors, rare earths, and the like.


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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by HWalsh »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Edit: To note - Many people assume that the CS controls credits, they don't. Universal Credits pre-date the CS, so the CS can't simply "make more" as the CS can't make Universal Credits as they are a pre-Rifts artifact meaning that nobody can make more.


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200
The currency of the modern, civilized world of Rifts Earth is "credits" -- electronic money kept and accounted for by a sophisticated, computerized banking system. Credits can be wire transferred at most CS cities, towns, burbs and outposts, or encoded on "debit cards," small sturdy, plastic cards very similar to pre-Rifts credit cards or telephone cards. Each time the "debit" card is used, the appropriate amount of credits is deducted from the card. When all the credits are used up, the card can be thrown away or saved and taken to an appropriate banking institution, money lender, or merchant to have credits in a savings account transferred onto the card for future use. Similarly, many businesses, banks, money lenders and even the Black Market and some travelling merchants can place additional credits into the card by transferring real and existing funds from their account into the card. This can be done as a loan, to make payments to an employee, to pay a bounty, and commonly when the bank, business or merchant purchases goods (gold, silver, furs, guns, magic items, ancient artifacts, etc.).

The government of the Coalition States (representing 73% of all trade on the continent) is the one responsible for creating this system of money exchange and accounting. It prevents counterfeiting and enables the government (who controls the banking) to monitor the flow of money and commerce. For this reason, the Black Market, arms dealers, smugglers and many operating in the sale and purchase of illegal goods and services prefer to "trade" goods for goods rather than issue "credits" as an effective way to pay and trade people "under the table."

"Universal Credits" are the most common and popular form of credits instituted by the Coalition States. Universals credits are good with all merchants, businesses and banks throughout the Coalition States, as well as in the New German Republic and many independent kingdoms, nations and businesses including Northern Gun, the Manistique Imperium, Wellington Industries, Wilk’s, Iron Heart Armaments, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, Free Quebec, Whykin, Lazlo, New Lazlo, and most Midwest and eastern communities, including the Black Market (although front companies and cover identities are necessary for the latter). Most mercenaries, adventurers, bandits and people of North America will accept Universal Credits as a viable currency! Universal Credits is the main currency of North America.

Since the Coalition States are strong and stable, there islittle danger of the credits becoming devalued or of the banks going out of business. Furthermore, because the system is based on "redeemable" Universal Credits typically available to the "bearer" of the card, it is safe to put thousands, even millions of credits on one or more cards and use the money/credits freely, just about anywhere, without question. In this regard, the CS is unbelievably tolerant in its dealings with questionable businesses. For this system of banking and money exchange to collapse, the Coalition States would have to completely change its banking and monetary system (a monumental and disruptive task), or be destroyed. Ironically, this creates a subtle and bizarre interdependence and symbiotic relationship with both the supporters and enemies of the States!

"Marked" or "Personalized" debit cards in which the funds are available only to one or two specific individuals can also be issued, but each transaction with that card will be recorded, identifying the user, what he or she purchased, and where, giving the Coalition watchdogs potentially incriminating information.

Some independent nations, kingdoms, organizations (like the Black Market) and businesses with numerous outlets throughout the land issue their own form of "credits" on debit cards via an independent banking institution. Individuals who despise the Coalition may elect to use these instead of the CS Universal Credits. Likewise, citizens and supporters of that community or institution may also prefer to use their own credit system, however there are problems with this. First, the security of the credits is based entirely on the stability of the kingdom or organization that issued them. Obviously, such places are much more unstable and vulnerable to disaster than the CS. Second, since the CS will not recognize most other nations and never accepts foreign credits, these money cards have an extremely limited value. In many cases these independent debit cards are only accepted in the kingdom that issued them and worthless everywhere else (and another reason the CS Universal Credits are so popular).

Lazlo and New Lazlo, Tolkeen, and a handful of other independent kingdoms and cities have their own form of "credit" system, but only the joint efforts of Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium have managed to establish a banking and credits/debit system that is accepted and used at many locations throughout the country. Typically, any seller of Northern Gun (NG) and Imperium (MI) weapons and equipment (both using the same credits system and debit cards) will usually accept NGMI debit cards redeemable for credits that can be used at these Upper Michigan kingdoms and with all NG and MI "authorized" gun shops,merchants and traders, as well as most 'Burbs. Furthermore, a handful of other independent towns, cities, merchants and traveling shows use or accept NGMI cards, including Silvereno, Bandito Arms, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Kingsdale, Ciudad Juarez, and scattered towns in the Pecos Empire, Lone Star, New West and Magic Zone.

The third credits/debit system to rival the NGMI and challenge the CS Universal Credits is that of the Black Market. Their debit card is a simple, encoded black plastic card. It is good at virtually all Black Market operations scattered throughout the world, including the Coalition States, and accepted by all official Black Market agents, operatives and freelancers, as well as by most Juicers, Crazies, Gunslingers, Bounty Hunters, mercenaries, spies, smugglers, bandits and criminals of all kind. Black Credits, as this illegal, underground system of banking and debit cards are known, is welcome at Coalition Burbs, most Body-Chop-Shops, the Pecos Empire, Bandito Arms, and many (not all) merchants and businesses at Tolkeen, New Lazlo, Whykin, Kingsdale, Free Quebec, Lone Star and scattered towns in the New West.


This directly contradicts China 2, which states that the Universal Credit System is pre-rifts.

Edit:
"The idea of credits works because prior to the great cataclysm the governments of the world went to one global currency, the Universal Credit."

China 2 page 10

Since New West came out in 1997 and China 2 came out in 2004, doesn't that mean that the information in China 2 would supersede the information in New West, especially since the justification had to change for China 2 to work. Thus, in order to make it works that China uses the same currency as the CS, without having contact with the CS, the explanation that it is a pre-rifts currency means the CS can't possibly have created it.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

HWalsh wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Edit: To note - Many people assume that the CS controls credits, they don't. Universal Credits pre-date the CS, so the CS can't simply "make more" as the CS can't make Universal Credits as they are a pre-Rifts artifact meaning that nobody can make more.


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200
The currency of the modern, civilized world of Rifts Earth is "credits" -- electronic money kept and accounted for by a sophisticated, computerized banking system. Credits can be wire transferred at most CS cities, towns, burbs and outposts, or encoded on "debit cards," small sturdy, plastic cards very similar to pre-Rifts credit cards or telephone cards. Each time the "debit" card is used, the appropriate amount of credits is deducted from the card. When all the credits are used up, the card can be thrown away or saved and taken to an appropriate banking institution, money lender, or merchant to have credits in a savings account transferred onto the card for future use. Similarly, many businesses, banks, money lenders and even the Black Market and some travelling merchants can place additional credits into the card by transferring real and existing funds from their account into the card. This can be done as a loan, to make payments to an employee, to pay a bounty, and commonly when the bank, business or merchant purchases goods (gold, silver, furs, guns, magic items, ancient artifacts, etc.).

The government of the Coalition States (representing 73% of all trade on the continent) is the one responsible for creating this system of money exchange and accounting. It prevents counterfeiting and enables the government (who controls the banking) to monitor the flow of money and commerce. For this reason, the Black Market, arms dealers, smugglers and many operating in the sale and purchase of illegal goods and services prefer to "trade" goods for goods rather than issue "credits" as an effective way to pay and trade people "under the table."

"Universal Credits" are the most common and popular form of credits instituted by the Coalition States. Universals credits are good with all merchants, businesses and banks throughout the Coalition States, as well as in the New German Republic and many independent kingdoms, nations and businesses including Northern Gun, the Manistique Imperium, Wellington Industries, Wilk’s, Iron Heart Armaments, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, Free Quebec, Whykin, Lazlo, New Lazlo, and most Midwest and eastern communities, including the Black Market (although front companies and cover identities are necessary for the latter). Most mercenaries, adventurers, bandits and people of North America will accept Universal Credits as a viable currency! Universal Credits is the main currency of North America.

Since the Coalition States are strong and stable, there islittle danger of the credits becoming devalued or of the banks going out of business. Furthermore, because the system is based on "redeemable" Universal Credits typically available to the "bearer" of the card, it is safe to put thousands, even millions of credits on one or more cards and use the money/credits freely, just about anywhere, without question. In this regard, the CS is unbelievably tolerant in its dealings with questionable businesses. For this system of banking and money exchange to collapse, the Coalition States would have to completely change its banking and monetary system (a monumental and disruptive task), or be destroyed. Ironically, this creates a subtle and bizarre interdependence and symbiotic relationship with both the supporters and enemies of the States!

"Marked" or "Personalized" debit cards in which the funds are available only to one or two specific individuals can also be issued, but each transaction with that card will be recorded, identifying the user, what he or she purchased, and where, giving the Coalition watchdogs potentially incriminating information.

Some independent nations, kingdoms, organizations (like the Black Market) and businesses with numerous outlets throughout the land issue their own form of "credits" on debit cards via an independent banking institution. Individuals who despise the Coalition may elect to use these instead of the CS Universal Credits. Likewise, citizens and supporters of that community or institution may also prefer to use their own credit system, however there are problems with this. First, the security of the credits is based entirely on the stability of the kingdom or organization that issued them. Obviously, such places are much more unstable and vulnerable to disaster than the CS. Second, since the CS will not recognize most other nations and never accepts foreign credits, these money cards have an extremely limited value. In many cases these independent debit cards are only accepted in the kingdom that issued them and worthless everywhere else (and another reason the CS Universal Credits are so popular).

Lazlo and New Lazlo, Tolkeen, and a handful of other independent kingdoms and cities have their own form of "credit" system, but only the joint efforts of Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium have managed to establish a banking and credits/debit system that is accepted and used at many locations throughout the country. Typically, any seller of Northern Gun (NG) and Imperium (MI) weapons and equipment (both using the same credits system and debit cards) will usually accept NGMI debit cards redeemable for credits that can be used at these Upper Michigan kingdoms and with all NG and MI "authorized" gun shops,merchants and traders, as well as most 'Burbs. Furthermore, a handful of other independent towns, cities, merchants and traveling shows use or accept NGMI cards, including Silvereno, Bandito Arms, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Kingsdale, Ciudad Juarez, and scattered towns in the Pecos Empire, Lone Star, New West and Magic Zone.

The third credits/debit system to rival the NGMI and challenge the CS Universal Credits is that of the Black Market. Their debit card is a simple, encoded black plastic card. It is good at virtually all Black Market operations scattered throughout the world, including the Coalition States, and accepted by all official Black Market agents, operatives and freelancers, as well as by most Juicers, Crazies, Gunslingers, Bounty Hunters, mercenaries, spies, smugglers, bandits and criminals of all kind. Black Credits, as this illegal, underground system of banking and debit cards are known, is welcome at Coalition Burbs, most Body-Chop-Shops, the Pecos Empire, Bandito Arms, and many (not all) merchants and businesses at Tolkeen, New Lazlo, Whykin, Kingsdale, Free Quebec, Lone Star and scattered towns in the New West.


This directly contradicts China 2, which states that the Universal Credit System is pre-rifts.

Edit:
"The idea of credits works because prior to the great cataclysm the governments of the world went to one global currency, the Universal Credit."

China 2 page 10

Since New West came out in 1997 and China 2 came out in 2004, doesn't that mean that the information in China 2 would supersede the information in New West, especially since the justification had to change for China 2 to work. Thus, in order to make it works that China uses the same currency as the CS, without having contact with the CS, the explanation that it is a pre-rifts currency means the CS can't possibly have created it.


Not at all.

In the past, the world went to a globy currancy, the Universal Credit.

Then the rifts happened. Society took a snooze for a few hundred years, then clawed it's way back up. trhe CS developed the new system and gave it an old name. Or same name.

There's the US "Dollar" but Canadians also use a Dollar but it's not the same one. So do Australians. Also not the same thing. All three are "Dollars" but they denote different things, of the same general concept.

Universal credit is the same sort of thing. A generic term for usage of a specific thing.

When I'm in the US and I say "Dollar" it's known I mean US dollar. When Jaymz is in Canada and he says dollar he's speaking of the Canadian dollar. We both know and understand this (And by extention, I'm better than him. :D ).

The CS say "Universal Credit" and mean the Universal credit that they created. Not one created pre-rifts. :)
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by HWalsh »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Edit: To note - Many people assume that the CS controls credits, they don't. Universal Credits pre-date the CS, so the CS can't simply "make more" as the CS can't make Universal Credits as they are a pre-Rifts artifact meaning that nobody can make more.


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200
The currency of the modern, civilized world of Rifts Earth is "credits" -- electronic money kept and accounted for by a sophisticated, computerized banking system. Credits can be wire transferred at most CS cities, towns, burbs and outposts, or encoded on "debit cards," small sturdy, plastic cards very similar to pre-Rifts credit cards or telephone cards. Each time the "debit" card is used, the appropriate amount of credits is deducted from the card. When all the credits are used up, the card can be thrown away or saved and taken to an appropriate banking institution, money lender, or merchant to have credits in a savings account transferred onto the card for future use. Similarly, many businesses, banks, money lenders and even the Black Market and some travelling merchants can place additional credits into the card by transferring real and existing funds from their account into the card. This can be done as a loan, to make payments to an employee, to pay a bounty, and commonly when the bank, business or merchant purchases goods (gold, silver, furs, guns, magic items, ancient artifacts, etc.).

The government of the Coalition States (representing 73% of all trade on the continent) is the one responsible for creating this system of money exchange and accounting. It prevents counterfeiting and enables the government (who controls the banking) to monitor the flow of money and commerce. For this reason, the Black Market, arms dealers, smugglers and many operating in the sale and purchase of illegal goods and services prefer to "trade" goods for goods rather than issue "credits" as an effective way to pay and trade people "under the table."

"Universal Credits" are the most common and popular form of credits instituted by the Coalition States. Universals credits are good with all merchants, businesses and banks throughout the Coalition States, as well as in the New German Republic and many independent kingdoms, nations and businesses including Northern Gun, the Manistique Imperium, Wellington Industries, Wilk’s, Iron Heart Armaments, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, Free Quebec, Whykin, Lazlo, New Lazlo, and most Midwest and eastern communities, including the Black Market (although front companies and cover identities are necessary for the latter). Most mercenaries, adventurers, bandits and people of North America will accept Universal Credits as a viable currency! Universal Credits is the main currency of North America.

Since the Coalition States are strong and stable, there islittle danger of the credits becoming devalued or of the banks going out of business. Furthermore, because the system is based on "redeemable" Universal Credits typically available to the "bearer" of the card, it is safe to put thousands, even millions of credits on one or more cards and use the money/credits freely, just about anywhere, without question. In this regard, the CS is unbelievably tolerant in its dealings with questionable businesses. For this system of banking and money exchange to collapse, the Coalition States would have to completely change its banking and monetary system (a monumental and disruptive task), or be destroyed. Ironically, this creates a subtle and bizarre interdependence and symbiotic relationship with both the supporters and enemies of the States!

"Marked" or "Personalized" debit cards in which the funds are available only to one or two specific individuals can also be issued, but each transaction with that card will be recorded, identifying the user, what he or she purchased, and where, giving the Coalition watchdogs potentially incriminating information.

Some independent nations, kingdoms, organizations (like the Black Market) and businesses with numerous outlets throughout the land issue their own form of "credits" on debit cards via an independent banking institution. Individuals who despise the Coalition may elect to use these instead of the CS Universal Credits. Likewise, citizens and supporters of that community or institution may also prefer to use their own credit system, however there are problems with this. First, the security of the credits is based entirely on the stability of the kingdom or organization that issued them. Obviously, such places are much more unstable and vulnerable to disaster than the CS. Second, since the CS will not recognize most other nations and never accepts foreign credits, these money cards have an extremely limited value. In many cases these independent debit cards are only accepted in the kingdom that issued them and worthless everywhere else (and another reason the CS Universal Credits are so popular).

Lazlo and New Lazlo, Tolkeen, and a handful of other independent kingdoms and cities have their own form of "credit" system, but only the joint efforts of Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium have managed to establish a banking and credits/debit system that is accepted and used at many locations throughout the country. Typically, any seller of Northern Gun (NG) and Imperium (MI) weapons and equipment (both using the same credits system and debit cards) will usually accept NGMI debit cards redeemable for credits that can be used at these Upper Michigan kingdoms and with all NG and MI "authorized" gun shops,merchants and traders, as well as most 'Burbs. Furthermore, a handful of other independent towns, cities, merchants and traveling shows use or accept NGMI cards, including Silvereno, Bandito Arms, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Kingsdale, Ciudad Juarez, and scattered towns in the Pecos Empire, Lone Star, New West and Magic Zone.

The third credits/debit system to rival the NGMI and challenge the CS Universal Credits is that of the Black Market. Their debit card is a simple, encoded black plastic card. It is good at virtually all Black Market operations scattered throughout the world, including the Coalition States, and accepted by all official Black Market agents, operatives and freelancers, as well as by most Juicers, Crazies, Gunslingers, Bounty Hunters, mercenaries, spies, smugglers, bandits and criminals of all kind. Black Credits, as this illegal, underground system of banking and debit cards are known, is welcome at Coalition Burbs, most Body-Chop-Shops, the Pecos Empire, Bandito Arms, and many (not all) merchants and businesses at Tolkeen, New Lazlo, Whykin, Kingsdale, Free Quebec, Lone Star and scattered towns in the New West.


This directly contradicts China 2, which states that the Universal Credit System is pre-rifts.

Edit:
"The idea of credits works because prior to the great cataclysm the governments of the world went to one global currency, the Universal Credit."

China 2 page 10

Since New West came out in 1997 and China 2 came out in 2004, doesn't that mean that the information in China 2 would supersede the information in New West, especially since the justification had to change for China 2 to work. Thus, in order to make it works that China uses the same currency as the CS, without having contact with the CS, the explanation that it is a pre-rifts currency means the CS can't possibly have created it.


Not at all.

In the past, the world went to a globy currancy, the Universal Credit.

Then the rifts happened. Society took a snooze for a few hundred years, then clawed it's way back up. trhe CS developed the new system and gave it an old name. Or same name.

There's the US "Dollar" but Canadians also use a Dollar but it's not the same one. So do Australians. Also not the same thing. All three are "Dollars" but they denote different things, of the same general concept.

Universal credit is the same sort of thing. A generic term for usage of a specific thing.

When I'm in the US and I say "Dollar" it's known I mean US dollar. When Jaymz is in Canada and he says dollar he's speaking of the Canadian dollar. We both know and understand this (And by extention, I'm better than him. :D ).

The CS say "Universal Credit" and mean the Universal credit that they created. Not one created pre-rifts. :)


That doesn't work though, that same section explains that the Chinese credit is the same credit as every other credit "for the ease of the game" as it were.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Axelmania »

In what words and where does China say that? Even without CS contact, they might still encounter CS-creatd currency through a third party.

For what materials would the vanguard need to raid which they couldn't simply create via magic like create wood/steal or learning bread+milk?

Even with warlocks banned for Vanguard there's still spells to enhance plant growth I think.

Even if in theory robots could do human work, that doesn't mean robots are easy enough to produce to make this viable. When you look at the high cost of robots, one may not be capable of doing enough farming or manufacturing to account for its production costs.

If CS were magic-friendly they could probably re-allocate a lot of resources. Like instead of spending money creating or repairing MDC armor they could have whale singers equip them all in that seaweed stuff and get a biomancer chitin suit on top of it. Probably good as anything environmental.

Who's to say the long-term effects of relying on such alien technology though? The CS will not risk its citizens THAT much to save a buck.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Library Ogre »

It's also feasible, especially they've done it similar things before, that the CS did not create the credit system, merely resurrected it. If it were truly a world-wide system, other entities might have recreated it, as well, leading to a broad compatibility between systems. That city in Japan that popped back into realspace? They were still using the Universal Credit and, with some driver updates, found they could participate in the CS-backed world economy. The NDR and Triax? They might have locally recreated it (if they even lost it), and just did the compatibility patches with the CS system. Colombia? Needed to fix some of the Spanish Language packs, but it was pretty smooth. Some places use barter but, as civilization spreads and stabilizes, the ability to take part in the broader global economy becomes valuable, so people use the CS-backed, formerly global, system.

That view gives the CS a significant influence, since they are a massive and centralized economy, but other parts of the world system can still interact with it. Heck, we wanna get really weird, we could even have ancient satellites that are still active for credit monitoring, similar to the network ARCHIE tapped into.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Pepsi_Jedi wrote:Then the rifts happened. Society took a snooze for a few hundred years, then clawed it's way back up. trhe CS developed the new system and gave it an old name. Or same name.

More likely the CS claims to have developed the system, but in reality is nothing more than a repackaged Pre-Rifts system (IINM the CS is known to do this given the SAMAS is pre-Rifts design, so is one of the CWC 'bots IINM, IIRC Canada don't the Mounties have CS gear from Pre-Rifts) given a CS-spin.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

China 2 Retconned the Cutting Room Floor and Palladium never updated it
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by taalismn »

glitterboy2098 wrote:to be honest, Food would probably the one set of resources the CS isn't short on. they have a ton of agriculturally suitable territory. but those same areas tend to be a bit light on metals, rare earths, etc.

and especially if they have genetically modified "super crops" that reduce the need for pesticides, fertilizers, and weed-killers and can grow with less water, etc.. in addition to their canon "super-livestock", they should have no problem obtaining massive harvests of grain, vegetables, fruit, meat, etc. and they may well have greenhouses and engineered versions to let them grow stuff that normally wouldn't in the climate of the CS states. also i'd expect a fair amount of agriculturally sourced medicines being a CS resource., for the same reasons.



Farm Towers, like those proposed for modern cities.....much more practical in the Rifts Era where you have cheap electric power courtesy of all those nuke powerplants they got. Plus they're easier to protect against marauders and terrorists attempting to sabotage the food supply, and keep a lockdown on the CS's genetically-modified plant strains.
Yeah, the major cities of the big tech-civilizations of Rifts Earth probably ALL have farm towers, a legacy of the Golden Age and the trend towards greater self-sufficiency.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by jaymz »

taalismn wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:to be honest, Food would probably the one set of resources the CS isn't short on. they have a ton of agriculturally suitable territory. but those same areas tend to be a bit light on metals, rare earths, etc.

and especially if they have genetically modified "super crops" that reduce the need for pesticides, fertilizers, and weed-killers and can grow with less water, etc.. in addition to their canon "super-livestock", they should have no problem obtaining massive harvests of grain, vegetables, fruit, meat, etc. and they may well have greenhouses and engineered versions to let them grow stuff that normally wouldn't in the climate of the CS states. also i'd expect a fair amount of agriculturally sourced medicines being a CS resource., for the same reasons.



Farm Towers, like those proposed for modern cities.....much more practical in the Rifts Era where you have cheap electric power courtesy of all those nuke powerplants they got. Plus they're easier to protect against marauders and terrorists attempting to sabotage the food supply, and keep a lockdown on the CS's genetically-modified plant strains.
Yeah, the major cities of the big tech-civilizations of Rifts Earth probably ALL have farm towers, a legacy of the Golden Age and the trend towards greater self-sufficiency.


This is an example of modern day seriously surpassing that of our present as described in history Rifts..
Last edited by jaymz on Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Riftmaker »

I always though population levels and resources needed a bigger focus in RIFTS. The Lonestar book if you add up the population levels for everywhere in the book its higher then modern texas.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Axelmania »

taalismn wrote:The irony would be if they had to resort to dimensional raiding to acquire materials. The Vanguard becoming glorified highway robbers hitting d-bee worlds/alternate Earths for refined metals, superconductors, rare earths, and the like.

An alliance between the CS and the Megaversal Legion in South America would be interesting. They were kidnapped humans who freed themselves from their oppressors and took over.

The Ojahee and Men-Rall would be a complication... both are more alien than the Dwarves the CS tolerates in Cordoba/Columbia (can't recall which) but it still seems like humans are the primary race running the Legion. So long as the Ojahee stay busy on the front lines and the Men-Rall limit themselves to their uber-repair, and they limit their numbers on earth and live mostly in outposts in other dimensions, and the humans run most of the administration and leadership, I can see the CS being okay with them. They could certainly benefit from the tech.

glitterboy2098 wrote:and especially if they have genetically modified "super crops" that reduce the need for pesticides, fertilizers, and weed-killers and can grow with less water, etc.. in addition to their canon "super-livestock", they should have no problem obtaining massive harvests of grain, vegetables, fruit, meat, etc. and they may well have greenhouses and engineered versions to let them grow stuff that normally wouldn't in the climate of the CS states. also i'd expect a fair amount of agriculturally sourced medicines being a CS resource., for the same reasons.

The Psi-Stalker/Psi-Hound patrols they have securing the farmland from pestilence curses will also probably prioritize investigating places where crops are dying and not put as many resources towards investigating mysterious higher-yield areas where the Vanguard might use magic to enhance crop yield.

taalismn wrote:Farm Towers, like those proposed for modern cities.....much more practical in the Rifts Era where you have cheap electric power courtesy of all those nuke powerplants they got. Plus they're easier to protect against marauders and terrorists attempting to sabotage the food supply, and keep a lockdown on the CS's genetically-modified plant strains.

Yeah, the major cities of the big tech-civilizations of Rifts Earth probably ALL have farm towers, a legacy of the Golden Age and the trend towards greater self-sufficiency.

Those towers might have also been priority targets in the nuclear exchange. Also unclear if they survived the earthquakes/hurricanes in coming of the rifts. They may not have been fortified against damage to the same degree as the military outposts which survived.

With their Lone Star level tech, I believe they could still do hydroponics, but I'm not totally sure these are easier to protect against marauders and terrorists.

The problem with buildings and having walls and stuff is you have intangible creatures like Entities who can just phase through them, so it makes it hard for Psi-Net to come and kill the things.

Psi-Bat would probably have an easier time chasing these guys down through open farmland where they can use high-speed vehicles.

Is monopolozing higher-yield crop genetics that important? The more food outside the Burbs the more incentive there will be for people to stop hassling the fortress-cities for protection. High-yield crops spreading everywhere could benefit humans, and the CS wants to benefit all humanity not just their own citizens, that's why they go and rescue coastal communities from Lorica Wraiths.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Riftmaker wrote:I always though population levels and resources needed a bigger focus in RIFTS. The Lonestar book if you add up the population levels for everywhere in the book its higher then modern texas.


CS Navy makes it even worse. Houstown is a reasonably sized small city located in the ruins of this swamp of mine. The CS's Fort Pinnacle is located in Beaumont, and has a military population larger than the entire city of Houstown.

Beaumont is about an hour away from where I sit right now. 28,000 in Houstown... something like 30-40k in Pinnacle.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

I've never done it but that doesn't sound right. Texas is a big state and it's 'lightly populated' in Rifts. Anyone cite the source that Rifts Texas has more people than real world Texas?
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by HWalsh »

Riftmaker wrote:I always though population levels and resources needed a bigger focus in RIFTS. The Lonestar book if you add up the population levels for everywhere in the book its higher then modern texas.


That is a common problem within Rifts. The CS, for example, has a fraction of the population of the real world USA. Their standing military (pre-HoH) has 5,000,000 combat troops. The US military has 1.6 million people in it. Of those 1.6 million less than 200,000 are actual combat forces.

The numbers of troops, populations, and such often don't work out with the math.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by kaid »

Mark Hall wrote:My version of the CS mines old towns and settlements extensively to get old materials for recycling. Something like Chicago is being eaten down to the bedrock in the CS's quest for resources.



That is my guess mining every mineral deposit and golden age cities/towns for materials. Given how they pretty much redid the majority of their military equipment in a short period of time not to shocking they are a bit in the bite now. If not for the minion war they likely would have continued on the warpath after tolkeen just to secure resources/mining areas. Now it is hard to say as much as they may want to branch out to mine stuff or salvage stuff a giant demon plague popping up puts a pretty huge crimp in their ability to do this.

The food issue may be temporary. Right now they are straining with the massive increase in the size of the military but war may be a self correcting issue as a lot of the green recruits likely won't survive in combat that long initially even if enhanced. It also is the easiest one to rectify with other powers helping supply them but would the CS trust lazlo or lemurians supplying them with mass amounts of food stuffs.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by kaid »

HWalsh wrote:
Riftmaker wrote:I always though population levels and resources needed a bigger focus in RIFTS. The Lonestar book if you add up the population levels for everywhere in the book its higher then modern texas.


That is a common problem within Rifts. The CS, for example, has a fraction of the population of the real world USA. Their standing military (pre-HoH) has 5,000,000 combat troops. The US military has 1.6 million people in it. Of those 1.6 million less than 200,000 are actual combat forces.

The numbers of troops, populations, and such often don't work out with the math.



Think not so much the US military as places like north korea or isreal. Places where they are small countries with a lot of foes so basically nearly every able bodied adult goes through the military for at least a few years. The US tends to not maintain that much of a standing army because we project enough power over seas there is no real need for us to set up sizable garrisons on our own soil. If monsters literally were real and could appear anywhere at any time I guarantee you the government would bolster the size of the military really damn quick.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by HWalsh »

kaid wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Riftmaker wrote:I always though population levels and resources needed a bigger focus in RIFTS. The Lonestar book if you add up the population levels for everywhere in the book its higher then modern texas.


That is a common problem within Rifts. The CS, for example, has a fraction of the population of the real world USA. Their standing military (pre-HoH) has 5,000,000 combat troops. The US military has 1.6 million people in it. Of those 1.6 million less than 200,000 are actual combat forces.

The numbers of troops, populations, and such often don't work out with the math.



Think not so much the US military as places like north korea or isreal. Places where they are small countries with a lot of foes so basically nearly every able bodied adult goes through the military for at least a few years. The US tends to not maintain that much of a standing army because we project enough power over seas there is no real need for us to set up sizable garrisons on our own soil. If monsters literally were real and could appear anywhere at any time I guarantee you the government would bolster the size of the military really damn quick.


You're missing the point. 5,000,000 combat troops. In real life that would require an army of around 50,000,000 the CS doesn't even have 50,000,000 citizens. Remember there are lots and lots of non-combat personnel in every military. We are told the CS has 5,000,000 combat personnel.

The fact is, as stated, numbers and populations never work in Rifts.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Proseksword »

The CS leadership is likely to see throwing their 5 million man army into as many offensive operations as possible and letting attrition do it's thing as a more effective use of their resources than simply down-sizing the military like some modern day democracy. There'd even be the bonus of being able to blame all the loss of life on those horrors from beyond the rifts instead of incompetent government bureaucracy.

Just a little food for thought........
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by kaid »

HWalsh wrote:
kaid wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Riftmaker wrote:I always though population levels and resources needed a bigger focus in RIFTS. The Lonestar book if you add up the population levels for everywhere in the book its higher then modern texas.


That is a common problem within Rifts. The CS, for example, has a fraction of the population of the real world USA. Their standing military (pre-HoH) has 5,000,000 combat troops. The US military has 1.6 million people in it. Of those 1.6 million less than 200,000 are actual combat forces.

The numbers of troops, populations, and such often don't work out with the math.



Think not so much the US military as places like north korea or isreal. Places where they are small countries with a lot of foes so basically nearly every able bodied adult goes through the military for at least a few years. The US tends to not maintain that much of a standing army because we project enough power over seas there is no real need for us to set up sizable garrisons on our own soil. If monsters literally were real and could appear anywhere at any time I guarantee you the government would bolster the size of the military really damn quick.


You're missing the point. 5,000,000 combat troops. In real life that would require an army of around 50,000,000 the CS doesn't even have 50,000,000 citizens. Remember there are lots and lots of non-combat personnel in every military. We are told the CS has 5,000,000 combat personnel.

The fact is, as stated, numbers and populations never work in Rifts.



If you look at north korea they claim to have just a hair under 6 million active duty military troops which is about 25% of their total population. So if you went along those lines you would be talking about more like 20 million for the population not 50. Also if a country like that holds that kind of military in times of basic peace and no active military conflicts imagine how big it would be if random demons and devils were appearing in and around their cities at random.

The CS military is bigger than one would expect but not totally outside possiblity even with modern day examples.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

HWalsh wrote:You're missing the point. 5,000,000 combat troops. In real life that would require an army of around 50,000,000


Source?

Killer Cyborg wrote: the CS doesn't even have 50,000,000 citizens. Remember there are lots and lots of non-combat personnel in every military. We are told the CS has 5,000,000 combat personnel.


There are lots and lots of non-combat personnel in today's military, but the CS Army is not today's military. They have advantages that we don't.

Like most arguments, this one has been covered at length before.

viewtopic.php?p=2586300#p2586300
[Vehicle and Military Gear Maintenance Requirements] is an area where there are at least two different viewpoints, and which view you hold will drastically alter your perceptions of the effectiveness of the CS.
View 1: MDC items are not affected by SDC damage, and general wear and tear is SDC damage. Therefore, MDC armor, weapons, and vehicles are pretty much unaffected by general wear and tear.
It takes a hell of a lot to break an MDC axle, for example.
Likewise, modern machinery requires a lot of lubricant, but MDC machinery wouldn't necessarily require much.
A modern car needs to have its oil changed regularly, for example, because the oil slowly fills up with bits of worn-off flecks of metal and other bits that wear away just in normal operation of the machinery. This wouldn't happen with an MDC engine; two MDC components rubbing against each other won't cause ANY damage unless Mega-Damage force is applied, and if Mega-Damage force was applied, the engine would fall apart in short order as its MDC was depleted. Oil is also used to reduce friction in order to reduce heat build-up, because over-heating can cause engines to fail. But a MDC engine would require mega-damage levels of heat in order to sustain any damage, and that's one heck of a lot of heat. For that matter, friction from rubbing parts is caused because on the microscopic layer, the machined parts surfaces are pretty rough, with lots of grooves, pits, etc., but we know that the Golden Age of Man had the technology to make entire suits of power armor out of molecularly-bonded materials, and such materials would have a much, much smoother microscopic surface. Of course, not all MDC materials are molecularly bonded, but that doesn't mean that their surfaces are not drastically smoother (therefore more slippery) on the microscopic level than what we have today.
Another common issue with maintenance is rust and corrosion. As with wear and tear, both rust and corrosion would seem to be SDC damage, not Mega-Damage. Even it was mega-damage, most mega-damage materials used by the CS are non-ferrous (CB1 48), so they're not going to rust. Corrosion wouldn't be a problem for MDC plastics or ceramics at all. There might be some sort of corrosion that could affect non-ferrous metal alloys, but then again, without knowing what alloys are being used, there might very well not be. I'm not sure if corrosion affects cermet at all or not.

Weapons maintenance is another issue for the military, but the same logic applies: wear and tear, rust, corrosion, and most other maintenance issues are an SDC problem, and would likely have little impact on a mega-damage military. Modern rifles have intricate SDC parts that can wear out, and modern rifles require regular cleaning, but modern rifles are quite different from the weapons of the CS military.
Again, there is the issue with MDC materials being unaffected by SDC wear and tear. If one were to make a modern assault rifle out of MDC components, that alone would drastically reduce the amount of time, effort, and expertise required to maintain the weapon. You wouldn't have to use gun oil, because you wouldn't have to worry about rust. You wouldn't have to worry about cleaning the barrel as often, because buildup in the barrel wouldn't cause the barrel to explode. For that matter, you couldn't overheat the barrel by extended firing: even if the barrel glowed white-hot, that'd still most likely be SDC damage.
Of course, the CS doesn't rely on modern rifles, so most of the above wouldn't be issues in any case.
The primary weapon in the CS military is the laser. Laser rifles don't have to worry about rust or corrosion, because they're MDC materials. They don't have to worry about moving parts getting jammed or clogged by powder buildup, because there is no powder buildup, and the weapons won't have much in the way of moving parts.
If you jam the barrel of your laser rifle in the mud, then try to fire it, that might cause some issues... but probably not. A mega-damage laser is likely to self-clean the barrel every time the weapon is fired, at least as far as SDC materials/buildup/whatever is concerned. A bit of mud isn't going to slow down even 1 MD worth of energy blast, much less a laser blast that's 2 MD minimum.
For that matter, the barrels might not even be actual barrels as we know them: the end of the barrel might well be a transparent wall that the laser either comes through or is created out of. Without rifling being a concern, I'm not sure what the length of the barrel is really used for in laser weapons.
Ion and plasma weapons would be similar, I believe.
The closest thing that the CS has (and regularly uses) to modern firearms would be rail guns.
Again, MDC weapons, so no worry about rust or corrosion.
Again, no powder buildup.
A clogged barrel might be a problem, but (again) with mega-damage force coming out of that barrel, it'd probably have to be one HECK of a clog.
Barrel friction might be an issue... but it might not. I'm not sure if there would be enough friction for the barrels to reach mega-damage level heat.
In fact, I'm not sure if the ammunition in a rail gun would actually come into physical contact with the walls of the barrel.

View 2: MDC items are affected by SDC damage, including general wear and tear, rust, and/or corrosion.
In which case a lot of the above doesn't apply, and the world of Rifts as portrayed in the books makes a lot less sense.


(On the CS military's medical requirements)
Killer Cyborg wrote:Well, they can create Dog Boys, which indicates some pretty good technology and knowledge when it comes to advanced biology, but I agree this doesn't necessarily mean that they're incredibly advanced when it comes to everyday medicine.
The CS also has a crap-ton* of psychics, many of which will have healing powers such as psychic diagnosis, psychic purification, and psychic surgery. However, their distrust of psychics means that they're probably not using this powerhouse of medical potential.

So let's look around a bit, and see what we find:

RUE 27
Although much of Iron Heart's technology remains about 100 years behind Chi-Town, it is advanced compared to most people on Rifts Earth and provides its people with the high life. Employment is at 98% and the City of Iron offers all the luxuries of civilization: ...high tech imports from Chi-Town (computers, voice actuated computer and electronic systems, bionics, medicine, etc.)...
So we know that the City of Iron is about 100 years behind the CS, and that they're still ahead of most people on Rifts Earth. Therefore, the CS's technology is overall 100+ years superior to most of the planet.
Granted, much of the population of North America is made up of wilderness folks and such, but there are quite a few high-population tech nations/powers as well.
This kind of indicates that the CS has some pretty good medical technology, although it's not necessarily the only possibility.
The one thing we know for certain about CS medicine is that it's considered to be a high-tech import on par with bionics, computers, etc.

RUE 263-264
Bio-Comp Monitors, compu-drug dispensers, hypodermic guns, IRVTs, RAUs, RSUs, portable bio-can & bio-labs, and portable laboratories all seem to be high-tech medical devices that the CS would use, that are useful in areas other than wound trauma.

CWC 100
All new Dead Boy body armor has the following features...
Computer controlled life support system that monitors and displays bio-data of the wearer...
Internal, voice actuated support computer and data base.


The bio-data that the armor provides would give troops a heads-up regarding their own medical condition, helping soldiers be more self-aware regarding their own health.
The fact that this level of technology is built into the armor as standard indicates that the CS has superior technology available for their doctors and medics.
The internal computer is mentioned to serve as a database and reading-machine, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that the bio-data that the armor obtains from the wearer is recorded into the computer, for later retrieval and analysis, which would provide the CS with an incredible advantage when it comes to analyzing and predicting diseases and other illnesses.

RGMG 186
We have shied away from giving specific stats on Rifts computers because by the time this book sees print, those figures will be wrong, and in c a ouple of years, they will be laughable. A good rule of thumb for gauging what computers can do in your campaign is to consider what computers can do at the moment you are running a game, and magnify that potential by about a hundred.

So let's look at a couple modern medical computers (and/or computers that affect health/medical care):
http://www.cybernetman.com/en/all-in-on ... iOne-MP171
This medical computer with antimicrobial coating helps keep sterile environments germ-free. The iOne-MP171 medical grade computer is also an IP65 all in one PC. It has a sealed front bezel that's waterproof to facilitate cleaning, in accordance with IP65 standards. This versatile all in one computer can be used as an EMR computer at the point of patient care, enabling health care professionals access patient records wherever and whenever needed. The iOne-MP171 is also a touch screen PC, making it easier to enter to enter data and saving time.

Not a lot of info on this, and I'm not sure what that computer would look like if it were 100x more powerful.
Maybe it's just 1/100th the size, basically being able to fit into a CS Medic's cell phone (or equivalent).
Or maybe it's the same size, but 100x faster, with 100x the storage space, etc. etc.
Either way, it's better than what we have now.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technol ... point.html
[b]Watson is an artificial intelligence computer system capable of answering questions posed in natural language,[2] developed in IBM's DeepQA project by a research team led by principal investigator David Ferrucci. Watson was named after IBM's first president, Thomas J. Watson.[3][4]

In 2011, as a test of its abilities, Watson competed on the quiz show Jeopardy!, in the show's only human-versus-machine match-up to date.[3] In a two-game, combined-point match, broadcast in three Jeopardy! episodes February 14–16, Watson beat Brad Rutter, the biggest all-time money winner on Jeopardy!, and Ken Jennings, the record holder for the longest championship streak (74 wins).[5][6] Watson received the first prize of $1 million, while Ken Jennings and Brad Rutter received $300,000 and $200,000, respectively. Jennings and Rutter pledged to donate half their winnings to charity, while IBM divided Watson's winnings between two charities.[7]

Watson had access to 200 million pages of structured and unstructured content consuming four terabytes of disk storage[8] including the full text of Wikipedia,[9] but was not connected to the Internet during the game.[10][11] For each clue, Watson's three most probable responses were displayed on the television screen. Watson consistently outperformed its human opponents on the game's signaling device, but had trouble responding to a few categories, notably those having short clues containing only a few words.

On September 2011, IBM and Wellpoint, a major healthcare solutions provider in the United States, announced a partnership to utilize Watson's data crunching capability to help suggest treatment options and diagnoses to doctors.[68] Just as Watson analyzed massive data in Jeopardy! to reach a set of hypotheses and list several of the most likely outcomes, it could help doctors in diagnosing patients. Watson could analyze the patient's specific symptoms, medical history, and hereditary history, and synthesize that data with available unstructured and structured medical information, including published medical books and articles.[/i]

From another article about Watson: (http://www.smartercomputingblog.com/201 ... d-jeopardy)
One of the greatest hopes for Watson’s technology is in the healthcare industry. Imagine a computer system loaded with every medical paper and record in existence and then having it on hand to help answer diagnosis questions during an emergency room crisis, or at the pharmacy to evaluate drug interactions and medication discrepancies. Because the medical field constantly produces new findings, drugs, and procedures, it’s nearly impossible for a person to keep up. But a mini Watson replica could. Already, IBM is working with medical experts at the Columbia University Medical Center and the University of Maryland School of Medicine to identify the best ways to incorporate Watson-like technology to the practice of medicine.

And another: (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technol ... point.html)
Watson will be able to analyze 1 million books, or roughly 200 million pages of information, and provide responses in less than three seconds, according to leaders of the project.

Now the CS doesn't necessarily HAVE a specifically medical supercomputer able to analyze roughly 20 billion pages of information in three seconds, and they don't necessarily use this computer to analyze the bio-data that's collected by the new suits of EBA... but they most certainly could have that according to canon, and it seems like a pretty logical and reasonable thing to do.
Moreover, if this possibility would explain away a lot of the support issues that you see with the CS military, it's even the most logical in-game conclusion to draw.

Lonestar 66-69 discusses Practical Genetic Engineering.
Here are some passages:
The mutants presented throught this book, from Dog Boys to the Xiticix Killer, are all extreme examples of genetic engineering, manipulation and research that have effectively created new species of intelligent, humanoid life forms. However, there are hundreds of more subtle and amazing things that can be done through genetic engineering. This book only touches only lightly upon some of them.

This is a perfect example of how knowledge translates into power. The Coalition States expertly uses their superior knowledge and technology (and the power they breed) to their maximum advantage.

The Coalition's secrets of DNA gives them incredible knowledge and a tremendous power, not just over their enemies, but over their allies and their very own citizens! Even the elite citizens of the States don't know anything about these things. They don't know or care that the CS government controlled cattle ranches have genetically improved cattle (larger, healthier, tastier). Nor do the ranch or slaughterhouse workers, or anybody outside the CS, because genetic enhancements are used subtly and secretly. All the CS citizens know is that Coalition Beef is plentiful, inexpensive and
DEEE-licious."

Likewise, CS citizens don't question why they don't get the same diseases that plague communities outside the States. Heck, most of them have never even heard of diseases like Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's, Diabetes, muscular dystrophy, MS, AIDS, various types of cancers, and other diseases and ailments which the CS has learned to eliminate or control with drugs and treatments discovered from their genetic research. Even obesity and dieting is a thing of the past, at least for citizens of the Coalition States.

The existing level of medicine combined with the use of cybernetics (mechanical and bio-systems), nano-technology and medical treatment in the Coalition States provides the typical human citizen an average lifespan of 100-130 years...


...they have genetically engineered food animals that are designed to be healthier and tastier, and they've eliminated obesity in the Coalition States.
That alone indicates that they're got a pretty good handle on the food situation.
I'll also point out that a lot of our modern produce is genetically engineered to be more durable and to last longer in storage, and that the CS takes every advantage of their genetic engineering programs, so it's logical to assume that they have some pretty good GM super-foods for their troops.

...we know that they have computers that are 100x better than our own, and that most of their population is illiterate.
It's pretty safe to assume that they have computers do a lot of the "paper"work, which would cut down on the bureaucracy (and manpower required for it) incredibly.


*metric


And so on and so forth.
It might be worth your while to read that old (2011) thread, and to think about WHY the US and other modern militaries require as much support as they do.
Remember, there are masses of non-combat roles that historical armies required that we no longer need, due to our technology (from drummers to stableboys to powder monkeys, and so forth)
I don't see any reason why that trend wouldn't continue in the future.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Axelmania »

Aside from oil-changer and dent-sander what other kind of maintenance jobs our modern army relies on would no longer be needed for MDC stuff used by the CS?
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Killer Cyborg, it's what the military calls the "Tooth to Tail" ratio. "Tooth" (combat troops) to "tail" (Support personell and noncombat troops). Every full time infantryman requires, depending on the military structure, 6-10 times as many noncombat personell to support them.

Basically, the noncombat jobs in the military always outnumber combat. You need support and logistics, you need technical and engineering personell, you need support and medical personell, you need procurement and logistics personell, you need trainers, and each and every one of those requires their own support and command structures.

I know, I know, it seems inuitive that if you just manage and organize it well enough, you can cut that number down--and you can. Marius's reformed roman legions still hold the world record at a mere 3-to-1, however that was only possible by employing a vast number of mercenaries and using slave labor that "Dosn't count" for that purpose. if you include those, it goes back up to 6 to 1. Occasionally it can dip lower during a period of prolonged war, when an entire society is geared to support the war effort, then it's easier to manage those things and the number temporarily drops, albiet only due to a large productivty hit at the civlians instead (rationing is only a part of it).

Incidently, this is actually what a lot of modern-day Mercenaries/Private Military Companies actually do. Employing mercenaries in combat roles is technically illegal under current international law, so they hire civilian contractors to handle the "Tail". This does not reduce the actual number of warm bodies needed to keep the military running, it just lets you keep the actual enlisted size down by using nonenlisted personell to handle logistics and security and engineering and suchlike.

Given the presumed lack of wear and tear on MDC machinery (Not zero--it's mentioned in a few places that MDC suits need maitance occasionally, but nowhere near as often--prehaps SDC electronics need repairing?), and given theoretically super advanced manufacturing, you could possibly cut that down to at as little as 1:4 ratio, but you would still be talking about an army of 20 million to support 5 million combat troops.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:Aside from oil-changer and dent-sander what other kind of maintenance jobs our modern army relies on would no longer be needed for MDC stuff used by the CS?


Good question.

I can't say for certain, because I don't know much about what kind of non-combat personnel the US military currently uses, what jobs guys in the motor pool have, or what they spend most of their time or effort fixing.
Here's an interesting survey on Problems in Army Vehicle Maintenance, that might have some decent information:
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/p ... /R2487.pdf

Looking at the survey...

-Preventative maintenance would be a lot easier, since not only would oil changes be less necessary and such, but also because when something DOES go wrong, it's not as likely to cause problems. If a modern car's engine overheats, that could mean cracks or other damage to the engine itself. That's not going to happen with an MDC engine, unless the overheating is 100+ MDC. Arguably, some warping could occur, but the overall resistance to temperatures and such is going to be a lot higher than with modern equipment.
-Computer Diagnostics would be roughly 100x better than what we have today (although this part doesn't have to do with MDC specifically)
-"Operator misuse and abuse" of vehicles is "a major cause of damage and breakdown." While MDC vehicles are by no means indestructible, they would be a heck of a lot harder to damage through normal misuse, abuse, or hijinks.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg, it's what the military calls the "Tooth to Tail" ratio. "Tooth" (combat troops) to "tail" (Support personell and noncombat troops). Every full time infantryman requires, depending on the military structure, 6-10 times as many noncombat personell to support them.

Basically, the noncombat jobs in the military always outnumber combat. You need support and logistics, you need technical and engineering personell, you need support and medical personell, you need procurement and logistics personell, you need trainers, and each and every one of those requires their own support and command structures.


I've already addressed all of that.
If you have anything specific that you feel hasn't been addressed, bring up the specific point.

Given the presumed lack of wear and tear on MDC machinery (Not zero--it's mentioned in a few places that MDC suits need maitance occasionally, but nowhere near as often--prehaps SDC electronics need repairing?), and given theoretically super advanced manufacturing, you could possibly cut that down to at as little as 1:4 ratio, but you would still be talking about an army of 20 million to support 5 million combat troops.


Good start...
Add in the superior organizational power of computers.
Add in the element of psychics.
Add in people not getting sick as a rule, to the point where even obesity is unheard of.
Add in repair nanites.
Add in a LOT of stuff that the Romans didn't have, and we don't have today.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg, it's what the military calls the "Tooth to Tail" ratio. "Tooth" (combat troops) to "tail" (Support personell and noncombat troops). Every full time infantryman requires, depending on the military structure, 6-10 times as many noncombat personell to support them.

Basically, the noncombat jobs in the military always outnumber combat. You need support and logistics, you need technical and engineering personell, you need support and medical personell, you need procurement and logistics personell, you need trainers, and each and every one of those requires their own support and command structures.


I've already addressed all of that.
If you have anything specific that you feel hasn't been addressed, bring up the specific point.

Given the presumed lack of wear and tear on MDC machinery (Not zero--it's mentioned in a few places that MDC suits need maitance occasionally, but nowhere near as often--prehaps SDC electronics need repairing?), and given theoretically super advanced manufacturing, you could possibly cut that down to at as little as 1:4 ratio, but you would still be talking about an army of 20 million to support 5 million combat troops.


Good start...
Add in the superior organizational power of computers.
Add in the element of psychics.
Add in people not getting sick as a rule, to the point where even obesity is unheard of.
Add in repair nanites.
Add in a LOT of stuff that the Romans didn't have, and we don't have today.


I AM taking all that into account. that's why i'm willing to halve it from 8 to 4. The problem is we are already hitting the point of dimishing returns on automation today. the bottleneck isn't the capability of tools, it's people to use those tools. You will never get to a 2 to 1 tooth to tail ratio. not as long as humans are humans, no matter hte tools you give them. I seriously doubt the CCW in phase world (Which is mellenia advanced of the CS) manages a better than a 4 to 1 ratio. at that point it's a people problem, not a mechanical problem. Not without resorting to fully sapient AI, which the CS cannot do and the CCW will not do.
Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg, it's what the military calls the "Tooth to Tail" ratio. "Tooth" (combat troops) to "tail" (Support personell and noncombat troops). Every full time infantryman requires, depending on the military structure, 6-10 times as many noncombat personell to support them.

Basically, the noncombat jobs in the military always outnumber combat. You need support and logistics, you need technical and engineering personell, you need support and medical personell, you need procurement and logistics personell, you need trainers, and each and every one of those requires their own support and command structures.


I've already addressed all of that.
If you have anything specific that you feel hasn't been addressed, bring up the specific point.

Given the presumed lack of wear and tear on MDC machinery (Not zero--it's mentioned in a few places that MDC suits need maitance occasionally, but nowhere near as often--prehaps SDC electronics need repairing?), and given theoretically super advanced manufacturing, you could possibly cut that down to at as little as 1:4 ratio, but you would still be talking about an army of 20 million to support 5 million combat troops.


Good start...
Add in the superior organizational power of computers.
Add in the element of psychics.
Add in people not getting sick as a rule, to the point where even obesity is unheard of.
Add in repair nanites.
Add in a LOT of stuff that the Romans didn't have, and we don't have today.


There's a pretty harsh limit to the amount of automation. all those things you mention make doing the job easier for each individual involved, but that only reduces the need for warm bodies to USE those tools so much. if you need 50 million support personel, but all those tools allow one man to do the work of 3 support personell, then you still need 16.66 million people not-fighting.


If you don't need 50 million support personnel, and all those tools (and factors) allow one man to do the work of 100, then what?

How many medics/doctors does an army need if it never gets sick?
How many people does a motor pool need if vehicles don't break down?
How many bureaucrats does an army need in a society where computers are advanced enough that popular literacy is no longer needed?

Figure out the answer to those questions, and you'll have a starting idea of the ratio the CS would be looking at.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by kaid »

When you can actually grow significant amounts of your military in vats to spec and have actual reliable combat AI capable of repair and maintenance as per the new skelebot controller OCC who all have a personal assistant repair/salvage modded skelebot its a lot harder to say what the logistics tail would be. Also the amount of tail depends largely on the military involved and given the CS pretty much has to date mostly operated in large numbers less than 500 miles from their capitol city a lot of the logistics tail is likely being done by civvies in the fortress cities themselves. This may change as they are forced to operate farther afield but right now they have not really had to move major parts of their military farther than an hour or so flight time by a DHT.

It is very likely a lot of the battlefield damaged robots/vehicles may wind up getting carted back to the city itself as well rather than doing field repairs depending on transport availability.

Their longest range major deployment was around 30k to the NGR but they also had the NGR helping supply the tail on their end for the fight so they did not need to bring as much with them as they otherwise may have had to.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg, it's what the military calls the "Tooth to Tail" ratio. "Tooth" (combat troops) to "tail" (Support personell and noncombat troops). Every full time infantryman requires, depending on the military structure, 6-10 times as many noncombat personell to support them.

Basically, the noncombat jobs in the military always outnumber combat. You need support and logistics, you need technical and engineering personell, you need support and medical personell, you need procurement and logistics personell, you need trainers, and each and every one of those requires their own support and command structures.


I've already addressed all of that.
If you have anything specific that you feel hasn't been addressed, bring up the specific point.

Given the presumed lack of wear and tear on MDC machinery (Not zero--it's mentioned in a few places that MDC suits need maitance occasionally, but nowhere near as often--prehaps SDC electronics need repairing?), and given theoretically super advanced manufacturing, you could possibly cut that down to at as little as 1:4 ratio, but you would still be talking about an army of 20 million to support 5 million combat troops.


Good start...
Add in the superior organizational power of computers.
Add in the element of psychics.
Add in people not getting sick as a rule, to the point where even obesity is unheard of.
Add in repair nanites.
Add in a LOT of stuff that the Romans didn't have, and we don't have today.


There's a pretty harsh limit to the amount of automation. all those things you mention make doing the job easier for each individual involved, but that only reduces the need for warm bodies to USE those tools so much. if you need 50 million support personel, but all those tools allow one man to do the work of 3 support personell, then you still need 16.66 million people not-fighting.


If you don't need 50 million support personnel, and all those tools (and factors) allow one man to do the work of 100, then what?

How many medics/doctors does an army need if it never gets sick?
How many people does a motor pool need if vehicles don't break down?
How many bureaucrats does an army need in a society where computers are advanced enough that popular literacy is no longer needed?

Figure out the answer to those questions, and you'll have a starting idea of the ratio the CS would be looking at.


as to 1: Who says no one ever gets sick? There are alien and magical diseases to which humans would have no defence. Every time a random rift opens it's a biohazard with the potential to kill millions, and no one can stop them from opening. Even if they don't get sick, injuries happen, impact rules exist, and you still need doctors on standby to deal with all that. Not to mention all the burbite recruits who don't have access to that kind of medical and can come with all kinds of pre-existing conditions.
2: Considering the CS technical officer is a corebook OCC specalizing in repair and maitance, a lot, especially considering skirmishes would be common for battle damage. also: maitance is rare, not never.
3: Given the CS organizational command heirarchy we are already given: about as much as we have today. Computers can't make policy decisions, that's what beaucrats are for. At best that kind of technology replaces the person at the DMV mindlessly reciting policy with no ability to alter or change anything no matter how much you scream with Kiosks that do the same thing. That's littearlly it. that's the only kind of job those computers would replace. which was already factored into my 8:1 to 4:1 reduction.

The CS is protrayed as a lot of things, but some kind of transhumanist soceity where super advanced machines do all the work of people to free them to fight or do science has never been one of them.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by kaid »

It is not that they don't have any tail it just is unclear of how large it is. In general they seem to have a trigger puller type military in that everybody in it is expected to be at least capable of picking up a weapon and using it effectively. We know from the NG book that the CS makes use of much more heavily automated construction techniques for making power armor/robot vehicles. It makes equal amount of sense that most of their main military bases probably make use of this type of capability to repair major combat damage.

Also operating that close to their major cities and not really having a lot of info of the jobs/work those citizens of these cities do and given the size of the military I think it is pretty reasonable to assume many of their civilians probably are working in military or military support related fields.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:How many medics/doctors does an army need if it never gets sick?
How many people does a motor pool need if vehicles don't break down?
How many bureaucrats does an army need in a society where computers are advanced enough that popular literacy is no longer needed?

Figure out the answer to those questions, and you'll have a starting idea of the ratio the CS would be looking at.


as to 1: Who says no one ever gets sick? There are alien and magical diseases to which humans would have no defence.


Find any indication that such things a) exist, and b) are common enough to regularly worry about.
Keep in mind, the point here isn't that the CS necessarily has all the advantages I've described, but rather that they could.
Making up factors that might seem likely, but that aren't necessarily so doesn't address the argument.

Even if they don't get sick, injuries happen, impact rules exist, and you still need doctors on standby to deal with all that.


Do you?
The Impact Rules for people wearing MDC armor are optional these days. Even if you use them, they're the kind of thing that results in bumps and bruises that aren't likely to get past a person's SDC the majority of the time.
Remember that common equipment includes tech gixers like like Seekers, Cleaners, Knitters, and IRMSS kits, which you don't need to be a Doctor to utilize.

Not to mention all the burbite recruits who don't have access to that kind of medical and can come with all kinds of pre-existing conditions.


I think when they sign up, they'd get the medical care that they need, if they lacked it.

2: Considering the CS technical officer is a corebook OCC specalizing in repair and maitance, a lot, especially considering skirmishes would be common for battle damage.


Oh, definitely.
And they're soldiers. The fact that they exist doesn't give us a ratio, and it doesn't mean that they're not counted among the CS's troop numbers already.

also: maitance is rare, not never.


Sure. The question is how rare?

3: Given the CS organizational command heirarchy we are already given: about as much as we have today. Computers can't make policy decisions, that's what beaucrats are for.


I'd say that computers can eliminate the need for quite a few policy decisions.
They certainly eliminated the need (on the level the CS has them) for many secretarial positions, number-crunchers, and other pencil-pushers.

It sounds like you don't really understand the problem, and so are more willing to just handwave and say "Science fixed it".


Nope.
I'm saying "High technology could have fixed it."
Because the point that I'm arguing against is "It's impossible for the CS to have those troop numbers with their population," and that's not true.
Lots of things are possible, especially in a world like Rifts Earth.

From my perspective, it sounds like you don't understand how many jobs could be eliminated in an army where machines breaking down and people getting sick is incredibly rare, where every soldier has a suit of armor that monitors his vitals, and where the computers are 100x more powerful than the modern equivalent.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by guardiandashi »

as I look at it there is a fair amount of "tail" that can be reduced but not eliminated.

if you look at the coalition I suspect a lot of "field and routine" maintenance is reduced due to the "likely" better designed and more robust materials involved in the vehicles. If you then assume that a somewhat higher level of "field expedient, and FRUs (Field Replaceable Unit) is a larger proportion of their equipment, then a higher percentage of repairs and maintenance is done by the crews of the unit themselves.

I see a lot of the coalition servicing being essentially active ODB II improved IE the unit has an internal display that essentially says there is something wrong with module g45. the operator 1 tries to reset the module, remove and reconnect, and if it still fails pull it and put in a replacement. the "failed" unit goes back to the "depot" where it is either serviced, or kicked to the civilian support corps. if its too hard to repair, it goes to the factories to be repaired, or recycled.

if its still not serviceable after the "field" operators work on it then it goes to the motorpool, or a specialist comes in to diagnose the issue, they either fix the issue or kick it to depot repair and get a replacement unit in.

granted this sounds like it would require MORE people, but in a lot of ways if a lot of depot repair is actually done by the manufacturer then the effective tail is significantly reduced.
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Re: The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:How many medics/doctors does an army need if it never gets sick?
How many people does a motor pool need if vehicles don't break down?
How many bureaucrats does an army need in a society where computers are advanced enough that popular literacy is no longer needed?

Figure out the answer to those questions, and you'll have a starting idea of the ratio the CS would be looking at.


as to 1: Who says no one ever gets sick? There are alien and magical diseases to which humans would have no defence.


Find any indication that such things a) exist, and b) are common enough to regularly worry about.
Keep in mind, the point here isn't that the CS necessarily has all the advantages I've described, but rather that they could.
Making up factors that might seem likely, but that aren't necessarily so doesn't address the argument.

Even if they don't get sick, injuries happen, impact rules exist, and you still need doctors on standby to deal with all that.


Do you?
The Impact Rules for people wearing MDC armor are optional these days. Even if you use them, they're the kind of thing that results in bumps and bruises that aren't likely to get past a person's SDC the majority of the time.
Remember that common equipment includes tech gixers like like Seekers, Cleaners, Knitters, and IRMSS kits, which you don't need to be a Doctor to utilize.

Not to mention all the burbite recruits who don't have access to that kind of medical and can come with all kinds of pre-existing conditions.


I think when they sign up, they'd get the medical care that they need, if they lacked it.

2: Considering the CS technical officer is a corebook OCC specalizing in repair and maitance, a lot, especially considering skirmishes would be common for battle damage.


Oh, definitely.
And they're soldiers. The fact that they exist doesn't give us a ratio, and it doesn't mean that they're not counted among the CS's troop numbers already.

also: maitance is rare, not never.


Sure. The question is how rare?

3: Given the CS organizational command heirarchy we are already given: about as much as we have today. Computers can't make policy decisions, that's what beaucrats are for.


I'd say that computers can eliminate the need for quite a few policy decisions.
They certainly eliminated the need (on the level the CS has them) for many secretarial positions, number-crunchers, and other pencil-pushers.

It sounds like you don't really understand the problem, and so are more willing to just handwave and say "Science fixed it".


Nope.
I'm saying "High technology could have fixed it."
Because the point that I'm arguing against is "It's impossible for the CS to have those troop numbers with their population," and that's not true.
Lots of things are possible, especially in a world like Rifts Earth.

From my perspective, it sounds like you don't understand how many jobs could be eliminated in an army where machines breaking down and people getting sick is incredibly rare, where every soldier has a suit of armor that monitors his vitals, and where the computers are 100x more powerful than the modern equivalent.


It sounds to me like you are the one who does not understand those things, so prehaps we should agree to disagree. We're at the point we are simply re-presenting our premise as our arguments, and that never goes anywhere.
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