England classes and Paradox spells

[Axelmania]

I initially got the impression that only Paradox Shamans could cast these since they were under Shaman magic, but under the spell list it mentions they can only be learned by Paradox Shamans, Temporal Wizards and Raiders.

I guess this means they count as Temporal Magic for most purposes? Except I guess they would not be available to Temporal Warriors, Prometheans (in place of secondary skills) or Time Masters, who can learn normal Temporal magic?

I think Ley Line Walkers (and those Vanguard variants) and High (Creator) Magi might also be capable of learning the England-style Temporal magic but I guess they can't learn the Temporal/Paradox magic?

Stuff like 'Little Force' is pretty amazing. If there were Temporal Wizards in Kingsdale teaming up with Diabolists using permanence wards from demon bones brought by Shifters/Summoners, that could create some interesting situations for the Coalition States that only Psi-Bat could deal with.

[Glistam]

They count as Temporal Magic in the sense that Temporal Wizards and Raiders can learn them, but not as Temporal Magic in the sense that any spell caster level 9 or higher could potentially be taught them.

[Axelmania]

Or Warriors/Prometheans for example, who can learn temporal magic at first level.

[Glistam]

Or Warriors/Prometheans for example, who can learn temporal magic at first level.

Exactly.

[Axelmania]

Good to see incentives like this to actually play a Temporal Wizard. The spells becoming more and more available made them less special. This and being level 13 wiz to cast Unholy's special abyss spell remain nice reasons.

Do you think a temporal wizard could start with a Paradox spell? Or would that still be limited to the traditional Temporal spells and they'd need to find a Paradox Shaman to teach it to them?

[Shark_Force]

temporal wizard is one of the strongest mage classes around. they can start learning the high level powerful spells extremely early on, and they start with access to temporal magic (and getting to a high enough level as a shifter or ley line walker to even be able to learn temporal magic is not easy, even if you do have someone willing to teach you). and they can start at higher level, which is a huge boost to any spellcaster. the option for an extremely uncommon character (the levels at which ley line walkers and shifters can learn temporal magic are not unheard of, but it isn't easy to get there with palladium's exp system either) to pick up limited amounts of temporal magic *if* they have a willing teacher (and presumably a buttload of money or something else to trade) doesn't do much to diminish the actual temporal magic classes.

a level 4 temporal wizard can know spells to create scrolls, talismans, golems, zombies, mummies, etc without having to pay millions of credits and earning the trust of someone who knows those spells themselves. that is a huge benefit which should not be underestimated in its value. the spells that could be the end-goal of many other characters are easy for a temporal wizard to learn. what more do you need than that?

anyways, i'd assume they need to find someone to teach them paradox magic.

[Glistam]

It's the ability to chose any spell of any spell level at character generation and every level-up that makes the Temporal Wizard really shine. Even if all Temporal Magic was common magic and they had no unique spells, that one fact alone more than makes up for it.

So... going by note in the Rifts: Book of Magic, I would could see a case made for either interpretation: either seeking out a Shaman or learning it on its own. However, going back to the original write-up in World Book 15, I would say they can learn it just as one of the Temporal spells they are allowed to select, and based on that make my call to be that they can just select the spells without seeking another teacher.

Paradox/Temporal Spells
Magic typically known and available only to Temporal Raiders, Temporal Wizards, and Paradox Shamans

When you're hunting for extra Temporal Magic spells, don't forget the ones at the end of Dimension Book 13: Fleets of the Three Galaxies! The spell Time Stop is quite possibly the most brokenly awesome Temporal Magic spell ever.

[Zamion138]

Speaking of the spell "little force" does the redirected attack automaticly hit or does it fly back with the same to hit roll it came in with or should a new attack roll be made? As i read it , the attack auto hits back.
Also if a mini missile hits the caster obviously the rocket cant go back at the attacker, so just the blast doubling in force and going the blast radius distence away?

So in theory i could plant a few fusion blocks infront of me, cast little force and deal double damage out toward the target wall/structure.

[Axelmania]

I didn't notice the 'typically' first go around. That does open the door to others besides the ones mentioned learning it too, I suppose. Who qualifies would be left up to GM interpretation though, if not one of the mentioned classes.

Explosives are an unclear deal. Like if a missile hits you, is the missile the attacker (particularly smart missiles with their own APM) or is the thing that shot it?

Fusion blocks or any explosives are also a strange deal. Like if I set a fusion block with a 10 year timer and then go off and die 3 years later, 7 years later if the FB hits someone protected by this is my corpse blown up?

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...

Do you think a temporal wizard could start with a Paradox spell? Or would that still be limited to the traditional Temporal spells and they'd need to find a Paradox Shaman to teach it to them?

If the GM allows it..yes. I would guess more so with the longer durations of service would of had more chance to learn Paradox spells then with one with just the basic term of service.

snip...

Paradox/Temporal Spells
Magic typically known and available only to Temporal Raiders, Temporal Wizards, and Paradox Shamans

…snip

Were you quoting the RBoM or from somewhere else?

From the RBoM…

The following magic is typically know only by Paradox Shamans. Temporal Raiders and Temporal Wizards may also learn these spells,...

The above States that paradox shaman are the most common spell casters that have paradox spells, and then it lists the only exceptions.
Then there is the note of page 210 of the RBoM that says that Shamanistic Magic is limited to particular Shaman OCCs of their particular cultures.

[Zamion138]

I didn't notice the 'typically' first go around. That does open the door to others besides the ones mentioned learning it too, I suppose. Who qualifies would be left up to GM interpretation though, if not one of the mentioned classes.

Explosives are an unclear deal. Like if a missile hits you, is the missile the attacker (particularly smart missiles with their own APM) or is the thing that shot it?

Fusion blocks or any explosives are also a strange deal. Like if I set a fusion block with a 10 year timer and then go off and die 3 years later, 7 years later if the FB hits someone protected by this is my corpse blown up?

To me the its not so much the attacker as it fires back to the exactly same point of origin, so if a samas fires at you and get a 12 (total after pluses and minuses)while flying at 200mph the rounds that come back at you are indeed faster and more impact full. But are you still there to get hit? Or is it a "force" or bolt or something that comes back at you and nails you?
Also if i punch you does my fist flys back at me bend at the elbow all wonky and hit my own chest?
Lasers are easy it doesnt matter nothing is flying at ftl and shooting at the caster so it comes back two fold but....yeah can i dodge the return fire if im shooting at a little forced mage?
These are the questions we as a nation need to know to move foward.

[Axelmania]

snip...

Paradox/Temporal Spells
Magic typically known and available only to Temporal Raiders, Temporal Wizards, and Paradox Shamans

…snip

Were you quoting the RBoM or from somewhere else?

From the RBoM…

The following magic is typically know only by Paradox Shamans. Temporal Raiders and Temporal Wizards may also learn these spells,...

The above States that paradox shaman are the most common spell casters that have paradox spells, and then it lists the only exceptions.
Then there is the note of page 210 of the RBoM that says that Shamanistic Magic is limited to particular Shaman OCCs of their particular cultures.

Glist kinda indicated this in 'going back to the original write-up in World Book 15', it is a quote from the top of page 81.

I suppose we could view the relocation of typically in BoM as a rules change preventing other classes from learning them even though WB15 left the door open for that. Maybe KS got complaints about whiny High Magus or Promethean players snatching them up?

If a Temporal Wizard converting to this culture is plausible, it's less so with a Temporal Raider who can explicitly learn them...

*picturing Shell from Pantheons wearing a feather headdress*

Being limited to Shaman OCCs would be a direct contradiction to saying Temporal Wizards can learn them in the same book. I'd view that as, Shaman-only unless otherwise indicated, such as with the paradox spells...

Another exception being the Mystic OCC, per page 70 of Spirit West:

Non-Indian Mystics may learn/know a few Shaman spells, provided the Mystic
is close to nature
and/or
has the same or similar beliefs as Native American Shamans

It does go on to elaborate this isn't universal though:

Mystics should not be able to use shamanistic magic that involves spirits or things that are intrinsically tied to Native American culture or heritage (like Create Arrows, Totem magic, etc)

Which is kind of odd... other cultures have used arrows and totems haven't they? The 'anything involving spirits' statement could be used to exclude the entire category of 'Spirit Magic' (which conveniently includes Create Arrow, requiring no separate mention) for mystics, which would limit them to the 'Animal Spells' (possibly excluding Metamorphosis Totem, Metamorphosis Totem Animal, Shared Spirits, Spirit's Blessing and Totem Gift) and 'Plants Spells' (possibly excluding Call Forest Guardian, Spirits Blessing and Spirit Walk) and 'Paradox/Temporal Spells' (unless you retcon their availability via the revised BoM statement)

The 'learn/know' is strange, usually they avoid 'learn' for un-teachable OCCs like Mystics.

nothing is flying at ftl and shooting at the caster

Is there any text forbidding the firing of cosmic blasts by cosmo-knights flying FTL or FTL ships from Phase World doing so with their weapons?

Although... travelling FTL and firing your laser... I'm not sure if that means if you would hit your laser or if the velocity of your weapon is added on to your initial velocity.

If I fired a gun on a train would it go bullet speed + train speed?

Higher speeds can mean meeting higher frictions which can be a problem, I don't know if light would immediately meet that and get slowed down...

[Zamion138]

I was more refering to the odds something is moving ftl.
Also your negative to stike at ftl would be insain.
Starships, star children and cosmo knights are about all that moves at ftl.

[Axelmania]

Star Children actually move at or near light-speed I think, it's the knights/ships which do Lyears/hour stuff. I can't remember how Demon Knights get around, I think there's maybe a spell that lets you go FTL or else they rely on ship rides.

[Zamion138]

Right so if your mage runs into a galaxy class warship, a knight earent for justice and truth with galactic powers, or a space cadet ultra rare Dbee that often forgets where its headed for a few hours or days you would have an issue.

Still does it redirect the attack back at the attacker or is it mystic force that strikes automaticly back at the attacker?

[Axelmania]

I think it's kind of similar to house of glass in that it's an automatic damage you can't avoid.

[Zamion138]

I think it's kind of similar to house of glass in that it's an automatic damage you can't avoid.

So aoe bombs and missiles go back to the firing party? If a robot shoots the mage do you suppose the damage goes back to weapon or the trigger puller, or the main body of the robot.

Ie. Railgun takes double its MD on the return, extermly likely to destroy the gun or does the pilot responsible take the pain and exceedingly likely die, or does said robots chest take the double powered burst?
As a gm id say its going back to the main body but i can easily see some one ruling the weapon takes the damage.

[Axelmania]

I personally like the idea of the weapon taking the damage. It's cooler and also causes a quicker resolution of the threat (ie the boom gun would be destroyed but not the glitter boy) but the spell wording seems vague enough to allow either, or even to bypass the robot entirely and hit the pilot operating it.