Vulnerabilities of Mrrlyn

[Axelmania]

I noticed something a bit odd in his stats on page 87 of World Book 3 England.

It opens with this sentence:

"Creatures of magic, supernatural beings, psionics, and magic weapons inflict their usual damage."

This led me to wonder "wait, so what is he, invulnerable like a vampire to normal attacks or something?"

I see no mention of that though. The closest I can figure is under Natural Abilities it says "resistant to cold, heat, fire, gases, drugs and poisons (does half damage)"

So basically this just means that the halving doesn't apply to cold/heat/fire/gas/drug/poison damage when they originate from magic weapons, psionics, or the natural abilities of a supernatural being or a creature of magic? So like a fireball spell or a Thunder Lizard's poison?

The 'Vulnerabilities' section appears to be based on the Zllyphan one, although abbreviated. The difference is that the AI one gives examples of what 'magic weapons' includes ("rune weapons, holy weapons, techno-wizard items, and most other magic items") although it is kind of strange (ie every techno-wizard "item" counts as a magic "weapon" but not every magic "item" does?)

In that case 'inflict full damage' appears to be an override to a list of "impervious to" characteristics (same CHFGDP)

Am I reading this right?

[Proseksword]

I don't think it particularly overrides the half damage requirement. I believe it's an artifact of some of the earlier formats which drew from Palladium Fantasy sources, where many MD SN creatures are immune to normal weapons, but were made vulnerable to MD attacks.

[J_cobbers]

Based on the text, I would say because Mrrlyn is a Mega Damage being, normal SDC attacks from a source that is not one of his listed vulnerabilities, do no damage. But an SDC attack from one of his vulnerabilities do full damage. Normal Mega Damage attacks do full damage unless listed in one of his areas of resistance (fire, cold etc.) Interestingly since his resistances don't say that they include magical/psionic sources, I wonder if he would take half damage from a burster's fire bolt, or a fire ball spell or not.

[Axelmania]

I imagine a TW device using a fire bolt spell would work, but not a raw spell since that's not a weapon. Spells which create magic weapons like Lightblade might also work to bypass.

Usually when SDC attacks can harm MDC beings they would spell that out more plainly though... which is why I figure the 'full' is just to counter the 'half'. When I have seen what you talk about it's usually like 'SDC fire attacks inflict MD to them' or something.

[J_cobbers]

I imagine a TW device using a fire bolt spell would work, but not a raw spell since that's not a weapon. Spells which create magic weapons like Lightblade might also work to bypass.

Usually when SDC attacks can harm MDC beings they would spell that out more plainly though... which is why I figure the 'full' is just to counter the 'half'. When I have seen what you talk about it's usually like 'SDC fire attacks inflict MD to them' or something.

I think you're right about the TW weapon interpretation based simply on what the text says. I admit it is weirdly juxtaposed to how a lot of normal entries are laid out for PB, and usually they'll spell out the entries pretty well for vulnerabilities, so I think you have to take it how it is written then logic through if the attack qualifies for any particular exception.

Basically apply a simple 2 step test:
1) Since he's not listed as invulnerable to normal MDC attacks, ask is this an SDC attack or attack that would he would normally be resistant to, but that is none the less subject to one of his vulnerabilities? If so you have to apply damage against his MDC from such qualifying SDC attacks (creatures of magic, supernatural beings, psionics, and magic weapons).

2) Ask is this a MDC attack that is subject to his resistances that are not one of the vulnerabilities? If so half the damage, if not, apply normal damage for that attack.

[Supergyro]

They are really vague on exactly what the danger of Mrrlyn is..

"Planning to conquer the world in the next thousand years or so" is not that fearsome a plan..

[Nekira Sudacne]

They are really vague on exactly what the danger of Mrrlyn is..

"Planning to conquer the world in the next thousand years or so" is not that fearsome a plan..

I think that they had plans for Myrrlin to play a somewhat larger role in Rifts Earth in general , a more active malevolent alien intelligence compared to Splyncryths more passive watch-and occasionally-meddle-for-fun thing. After all, many of the books coming out after England reference Mrylin in some capacity. Not that his plan to conquer the world was likely to succeed in the near future, so much that Mrylin's range was growing and his plots to gather power and influence would be more widespread.

This more or less petered out around the time of the Seige on Tolkeen series. while he was mentioned offhandedly somewhere, he more or less failed to have any meaningful impact beyond a vauge reference to having someone in tolkeen watching and reporting on the proceedings. Thereafter Palladium itself underwent a dramatic shift with financial difficulties, departing staff writers causing a sudden crunch in available material, followed by an ongoing reliance on freelance writers to keep the line going.

None of the freelancers were particuarlly interested in doing anything with Myrlin, Kevin was far too busy to get around to putting much in, and so Myrlin has turned into one of the more sad kinds of story villians: the one that gets a lot of screentime eairly in the show, clearly foreshadowing a great menance to come in later seasons (Hell he even got a line item in the Edict of Planetary Distress!)), only for the writers to more or less forget about him somewhere midseason and never really deliver on the eairly promise.

To be fair, I think the fact he got stuck in England more or less limited the range he had to influence future metaplots. They failed to give him or his minions any reliable mass-transportation method for meddling in other areas, and that made it too difficult to come up with specific plots for him to enact. Oh they would throw in references that he WAS plotting, but after enough time lasped they just sort of moved on.

He also suffered form poor branding: the fact his gig is a copycat of a mythical hero figure just does not give him much personality of his own--he just has a dark mirror of someone elses. Splyncryth by contrast has remained one of the most popular villians, simply because his character is such an easy hook to write stuff for. He is massively powerful with the resources to actually conquer earth by next week if he wanted, but he can't because politics outside of Rifts Earth would counter-invade him if he did. So he simply meddles, doing interesting things, but never something so big the GM's have to worry about it completely toppling the setting. Its easy to justify HOW he got to somewhere to meddle (He has pyramid-teleportation, and Kittani ships and aircraft to fly anywhere, or just magical teleporation in general), what kind of meddling he can do (more or less anything), and most importantly: why is he meddling (funsies). He's a convient excuse for GM's to do almost anything they want, with a villian they don't have to worry about the party just killing and taking all his stuff. Myrlin has no real way to get minions places, no real resources other than one small kingdom to do his evil plotting with, and no real motive beyond "Conquer the World! Someday". Spyncryth just became the villian Myrlin was supposed to be all along because he fills the intended neiche so much better.

[HWalsh]

It's easy to write Myrlin back in though, but to be a big bad he's got to do something dramatic. It's classic show, don't tell.

He needs to rank, right now I put him as one of the weakest villains on Rifts Earth.

1. The Coalition States
Controlled by evil masters this vile species-ist nation craves power and conquest. A huge threat because they actively expand aggressively. Performed the most large scale damage seen in any book post the coming of the Rifts.

2. Xitcitix
Bugs slowly expanding with near exponential population growth. Yikes!

3. Vampire Kingdoms
Not really all that relevant.

4. Spluggorth
These guys barely qualify as villains. They don't really care about invading anyone. Sure, they're big and bad but aside from coastal raiding they don't do much.

5. The Federation of Magic
If they had significant troops, were unified, and not hiding in portals they'd be higher ranked.

6. ARCHIE Three
I'm not even sure he IS a villain. He's got the tech and the forces but he's more interested in fighting the Vampires and gathering data. He protects people from the Spluggorth and literally may not even have an evil alignment anymore.

7. The Yama Kings
If they weren't stuck in China...

8. Myrlin
The problem is he's more or less acting like a good guy right now. He has nebulous long term plans that will take over 1000 years. We've barely passed 8 in the last 30. So players in the year 5016 might care about Myelin he's totally irrelevant now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I agree he would need something Big to his name in order to make a comeback at this point, I think his lack of Transportation for his minions beyond personally teleporting every one (not something an Alien Intelligence or a powerful wizard is going to do reguarlly no matter what his long term plans are.)

Here's the thing: all his stated plots and all his relevance would be very high for any PC group...that happens to live in England.

The problem is England is not a very popular setting. If Myrlin had been located in, say, the Federation of Magic, and was actively stirring up Duscon vs Lords of Magic vs Coalition for his own ends from the get go, we might not be having this conversation and Myrlin could well have been a main starring villian all along.

But England is just not a popular place to base games out of, nor is there much there to draw game groups form Far away for more than a breif visit, so he sits off to the corner he was written into. England just didn't take off the way Kevin apparently hoped.

Actually...there's your fix right there. Have Myrlin, as a great and powerful wizard (in diguise), move to the True Federation and get to Meddling. He'll be a starring villian by the time the Minion war is over and the demons pull out, likely renowned as a hero and driving force in putting an end to the minion war in the first place (Even if he actually did very little direct fighting himself, he is cunning enough to come up with a way to take credit). Suddenly his 1000 year plan would be jump started a few centuries and he can get really rolling.

((As an aside on the Splurgorth barely being villians, I stand by what I said: as written they do nothing but run a big dangerous marketplace for high level parties, except that they are also written to meddle in a lot of other things for fun: they are more or less singlehandedly keeping the gargoyle/NGR war alive by feeding armor and weapons to the gargoyles, they have that well funded mercenary company in America stirring up trouble, and are stated to have dozens of Witches bopping around doing Nefarious Things. They are not Main villans, no, but they were not written to be--they were written as reoccuring B-villians. Side adventures that crop up in between dealing with the main villians. useful enough to be doing interesting things, like trying to overthrow a city-state or set up a war between two neighbors, just so they can swoop in and ensalve them both easily once they have exausted their armies and defences on each-other, that could take a few months to resolve in game, but simultaniously unobtrusive enough that a GM can have them just sit in Atlantis doing nothing in their game but the occasional Slaver barge if that's all the GM wants out of them. They can do both, and both GM's are completely within their cannon scope of activities.))

[HWalsh]

Actually...there's your fix right there. Have Myrlin, as a great and powerful wizard (in diguise), move to the True Federation and get to Meddling. He'll be a starring villian by the time the Minion war is over and the demons pull out, likely renowned as a hero and driving force in putting an end to the minion war in the first place (Even if he actually did very little direct fighting himself, he is cunning enough to come up with a way to take credit). Suddenly his 1000 year plan would be jump started a few centuries and he can get really rolling.

You need him to be there and make a BIG splash. It can't be meddling.

You need something like,

The CS, realizing that their resources are running out realize that it is now or never to destroy the FoM as, if they don't, the FoM might legitimately pose a threat to the almighty Coalition. Using their secret Vanguard they have learned how to reach Dunscon's city, and they are mobilized and in full force. The FoM fight, valiantly, even if they are evil, and are on the cusp of being destroyed.

Dunscon, in his moment of defeat, is contacted by Myrlin. He can turn the tide, he only needs Dunscon to allow him to. Dunscon, desperate, agrees, there is a bright flash of light and a white castle bursts up from the ground underneath the city. The Coalition forces give pause as the strange white castle appears seemingly from nowhere.

The battle is furious. Myrlin's forces tear through the CS troops, Myrlin's magic decimates them. The war machines of the Coalition rust and rot on the spot as Deadboys run in terror. The Coalition has lost. They are driven off. Myrlin, however, does not give chase, granting them mercy.

The Wizard then turns on Dunscon, who is grateful, before Myrlin puts him to death on the spot. The wizard then declares that the Federation of Magic is no more. Long live New Camelot!

The CS falls back, wounded and broken, their resources spent. It will be decades before they can rebuild their war machine. The Campaign of Unity is a failure.

Myrlin, however, appears to be benevolent. He offers space in his new kingdom, New Camelot, to any who wish it. Human, deebee, magic user, alien... He pledges to protect the Magic Zone and all of North America. His castle here is magically linked to his one in England, allowing easy rapid transit between places. He uses his magic to make the crops flourish and enriches people's lives.

Long live New Camelot.

Myrlin is just biding his time. This is all part of his game. His followers grow by the hour. He has made peace with Lazlo, and even has offered New Lazlo a place in his kingdom. He grows more and more powerful, all the while setting into motion his plan. He destroyed the Federation of Magic ending their threat to the humans of the Coalition States. At the same time he destroyed most of the "new" Coalition Weapons, weakening them and earning the favor of places like Lazlo, and the innocent magic users and deebees within North America. He is a hero... He will be an even greater hero still...

He will turn his attention toward the Xitcitix, then, when he is strong enough, he will look toward the Spluggorth. Someday the people of the world will beg him to be their master. Will hail him as a hero. Then... When all of their defenders are gone... When the world is at peace... Then, and only then, will Myrlin strike. He will consume the world in flood and flame and he will sit on a throne made from the skulls of his enemies.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That's more or less the kind of thinking I was going on: Meddling is kind of a loose term for Plotting in my mind.

My only issue with that scenario is that Myrlin has no magic or artifact that would allow him to simply wipe out the Coalition that way. He is just not that powerful on his own, and pulling an artifact that just negates technology that way kind of destablizes the whole tech vs. magic thing. I agree he could use a power boost to bring him up to main villian status again, but that's going a wee bit overboard methinks.

I'm fine with Merlin coming in with SOMETHING to turn the tide, but it should be more of a tipping point in an already close battle than something that just smacks the CS down all by his lonesome. if he had THAT kind of power, he would have just taken over the NGR by now instead of coming all the way to North America first.

[HWalsh]

That's more or less the kind of thinking I was going on: Meddling is kind of a loose term for Plotting in my mind.

My only issue with that scenario is that Myrlin has no magic or artifact that would allow him to simply wipe out the Coalition that way. He is just not that powerful on his own, and pulling an artifact that just negates technology that way kind of destablizes the whole tech vs. magic thing. I agree he could use a power boost to bring him up to main villian status again, but that's going a wee bit overboard methinks.

I'm fine with Merlin coming in with SOMETHING to turn the tide, but it should be more of a tipping point in an already close battle than something that just smacks the CS down all by his lonesome. if he had THAT kind of power, he would have just taken over the NGR by now instead of coming all the way to North America first.

Not really.

We don't know the limits of the spell, for one. If it's relatively short range, requires a massive amount of PPE, and only works as well as it does because of a lay line Nexus then it's not a good offensive spell to take over.

This could be all about, "Perfect Storm" as it were.

It could be something as simple as a Legendary Spell that causes:

All non-magical physical inorganic MDC material within 1000 feet becomes SDC material. All non-magical MD weapons deal their normal damage in SD for 1 melee round.

Offensive? Meh. It's bad sure. If people could set it up. Though it'd be a lot like Tolkien's missile rift shield. Great, but once it was used once it wasn't that good.

It would just so happen that cast on a Nexus it has a range of 4000 and lasts for 4 rounds. So for 1 minute all CS forces in 4000 feet (non-psi's) have SDC armor and SD weapons.

MD spells with blast radius AoEs go off and CS troops get shredded that kind of confusion can unleash serious havok.

[Axelmania]

Myrrlyn's capable of traveling to the FoM, he's probably checked the place out before settling down in England. Now his present 3 selves are too valuable to risk in dangerous areas so if he went there I think he would use a 4th major or spare a lesser (like a Supreme Nexus Knight) as an avatar to do dealings there. He probably has these corpses as members in some magical guilds in North America to gain intel and potential allies.

It's easy to write Myrlin back in though, but to be a big bad he's got to do something dramatic. It's classic show, don't tell.

He needs to rank, right now I put him as one of the weakest villains on Rifts Earth.

'The Weakest' is anyone not in your top 7? Where are Nxla and Lord of the Deep in your list? The Horune? The Arkhons?

1. The Coalition States
Controlled by evil masters this vile species-ist nation craves power and conquest. A huge threat because they actively expand aggressively. Performed the most large scale damage seen in any book post the coming of the Rifts.

Assuming this refers to the sum of Juicer Uprising (which was self defense) and the Siege on Tolkeen (also self-defense, they were claiming all of Minnesota just because they had 2 cities in it, attacking any CS troops who entered the state) I'm not entirely sure this is the most destruction. CS battles get more attention which might inflate the sense of importance of those who have lost to them.

Do we actually have numbers to run? Are we going by death count? "post the coming of the Rifts" is quite a big range and I'm wondering how many Gargoyles/Brodkil the NGR has killed, how many humans/D-Bees those two have killed, how many people the Four Horsemen killed before they were stopped, how many captured human slaves have been eaten in Atlantis, how many beings the Reachers of the Deep have dragged down for food, that sorta thing.

2. Xitcitix
Bugs slowly expanding with near exponential population growth. Yikes!

I don't know if they deserve a 2 spot but they certainly belong here more than the CS. Do we know how many innocents the Xiticix have wiped out over the decades of establishing their territory? I'm pretty sure they kill D-Bees (and humans) with less warning than the CS does, and they also target mages (for eating, not just killing)

3. Vampire Kingdoms
Not really all that relevant.

Only seems that way due to all the good work of guys like the CS, the Rangers, Pantheons guys, and you pointed out ARCHIE which is cool, hadn't noticed that.

Think about how hard it would be to monitor these guys if you didn't have a militarized Psi-Stalker/Psi-Hound force. These things can MD bite anyone as a pretty fast-flying bat, mist through your windows, etc.

There is basically a tipping point here: most of the vamps who exist have central america as their home earth they need to sleep on so they can't mass-migrate here. Only new vampires created in north america can invade en mass without the trouble of having to haul around a coffin full of earth. Once a vampire kingdom made its way into north america we'd truly understand the danger...

Though I wish Palladium would better explain the 'home soil' thing... isn't all of North/Central/South america connected? I really don't get how borders work. Something like 'you need soil within a thousand miles of where you were first slow-killed' might be easier. Plus I'm not really sure what happens if you get turned into a vampire on a boat, on a plane, in space, in an astral realm without soil...

4. Spluggorth
These guys barely qualify as villains. They don't really care about invading anyone. Sure, they're big and bad but aside from coastal raiding they don't do much.

Pretty sure you don't have to conquer land to be classed as a villain, and the coastal communities probably don't like becoming lunch/slaves.

5. The Federation of Magic
If they had significant troops, were unified, and not hiding in portals they'd be higher ranked.

I agree with you here. If The Three actually had decent MDC/PPE I'd be worried about mass production of Automatons but them having to lock 1 M/P in each one their High Magi creates limits their growth. It will be a lot scarier when Thoth tricks that dwarf in Magestar into worshipping him and then suddenly he can make them.

6. ARCHIE Three
I'm not even sure he IS a villain. He's got the tech and the forces but he's more interested in fighting the Vampires and gathering data. He protects people from the Spluggorth and literally may not even have an evil alignment anymore.

Agree here also, I like this guy. I bet if anyone reverse-engineers Naruni forcefields it'd be him. People must be getting those installed onto Flying Titan PA and the 3 bot variants, so the spyware he puts on those would be studying the tech and he'd be getting stuff with the fields and examining them better than we could.

7. The Yama Kings
If they weren't stuck in China...

Big place, they could have a lot of indirect impact without having to leave. I have to read up on them, they open to alliances with anyone else like Russian gargoyles or the Asuras of India detailed in Pantheons?

8. Myrlin
The problem is he's more or less acting like a good guy right now. He has nebulous long term plans that will take over 1000 years. We've barely passed 8 in the last 30. So players in the year 5016 might care about Myelin he's totally irrelevant now.

What's more unnerving about him isn't so much his essence fragments (thought there was a cap, so no unlimited Supreme Nexus Knights) but rather, his strange ability to control tectonic entities en masse.

This isn't a racial ability detailed for the Zllyphan so I figure it must be a unique magical experiment of his. Presently that's limited to the British Isles, but for how long?

I'm not sure how he's doing it... I don't think he was a Diabolist so it's probably not a permanence ward, though he probably does have the resource to hire someone for that for a bunch of 'summon and control entities' spells. You can't permanence-ward a supernatural being but nothing stopping you from warding the armor they're possessing. He could have also created a TTGD variant with very long durations...

Surprised noone else does this. He's not even using the best armor for it, the stuff Mystic Kuznya make would be better.

Also frightening is he seems to be able to endow tectonic entities (normally stupid) with skills. So far that's merely stuff like Land Navigation, but what if it doesn't stop there?

I'm sure some mages have some idea of Ghost Knights and might try to emulate what he's done.

[HWalsh]

It's easy to write Myrlin back in though, but to be a big bad he's got to do something dramatic. It's classic show, don't tell.

He needs to rank, right now I put him as one of the weakest villains on Rifts Earth.

'The Weakest' is anyone not in your top 7? Where are Nxla and Lord of the Deep in your list? The Horune? The Arkhons?

I ran out of people I consider world powers.

1. The Coalition States
Controlled by evil masters this vile species-ist nation craves power and conquest. A huge threat because they actively expand aggressively. Performed the most large scale damage seen in any book post the coming of the Rifts.

Assuming this refers to the sum of Juicer Uprising (which was self defense) and the Siege on Tolkeen (also self-defense, they were claiming all of Minnesota just because they had 2 cities in it, attacking any CS troops who entered the state) I'm not entirely sure this is the most destruction. CS battles get more attention which might inflate the sense of importance of those who have lost to them.

Do we actually have numbers to run? Are we going by death count? "post the coming of the Rifts" is quite a big range and I'm wondering how many Gargoyles/Brodkil the NGR has killed, how many humans/D-Bees those two have killed, how many people the Four Horsemen killed before they were stopped, how many captured human slaves have been eaten in Atlantis, how many beings the Reachers of the Deep have dragged down for food, that sorta thing.

I'm not going to rehash it with you but Tolkeen wasn't self defense. No other group has razed a city like that to the ground killing every last woman and child. The Four Horsemen did but they aren't around anymore to make the list.

2. Xitcitix
Bugs slowly expanding with near exponential population growth. Yikes!

I don't know if they deserve a 2 spot but they certainly belong here more than the CS. Do we know how many innocents the Xiticix have wiped out over the decades of establishing their territory? I'm pretty sure they kill D-Bees (and humans) with less warning than the CS does, and they also target mages (for eating, not just killing)

3. Vampire Kingdoms
Not really all that relevant.

Only seems that way due to all the good work of guys like the CS, the Rangers, Pantheons guys, and you pointed out ARCHIE which is cool, hadn't noticed that.

Think about how hard it would be to monitor these guys if you didn't have a militarized Psi-Stalker/Psi-Hound force. These things can MD bite anyone as a pretty fast-flying bat, mist through your windows, etc.

There is basically a tipping point here: most of the vamps who exist have central america as their home earth they need to sleep on so they can't mass-migrate here. Only new vampires created in north america can invade en mass without the trouble of having to haul around a coffin full of earth. Once a vampire kingdom made its way into north america we'd truly understand the danger...

Though I wish Palladium would better explain the 'home soil' thing... isn't all of North/Central/South america connected? I really don't get how borders work. Something like 'you need soil within a thousand miles of where you were first slow-killed' might be easier. Plus I'm not really sure what happens if you get turned into a vampire on a boat, on a plane, in space, in an astral realm without soil...[\quote]

Pretty much, but note: The CS doesn't do much against the vamps. ARCHIE even notes that Reid's Rangers are the only thing stopping them. He backs the Rangers, who are Cyber-Knights.

4. Spluggorth
These guys barely qualify as villains. They don't really care about invading anyone. Sure, they're big and bad but aside from coastal raiding they don't do much.

Pretty sure you don't have to conquer land to be classed as a villain, and the coastal communities probably don't like becoming lunch/slaves.[\quote]

Canonically their raids are all small scale and are infrequent.

5. The Federation of Magic
If they had significant troops, were unified, and not hiding in portals they'd be higher ranked.

I agree with you here. If The Three actually had decent MDC/PPE I'd be worried about mass production of Automatons but them having to lock 1 M/P in each one their High Magi creates limits their growth. It will be a lot scarier when Thoth tricks that dwarf in Magestar into worshipping him and then suddenly he can make them.

6. ARCHIE Three
I'm not even sure he IS a villain. He's got the tech and the forces but he's more interested in fighting the Vampires and gathering data. He protects people from the Spluggorth and literally may not even have an evil alignment anymore.

Agree here also, I like this guy. I bet if anyone reverse-engineers Naruni forcefields it'd be him. People must be getting those installed onto Flying Titan PA and the 3 bot variants, so the spyware he puts on those would be studying the tech and he'd be getting stuff with the fields and examining them better than we could.

7. The Yama Kings
If they weren't stuck in China...

Big place, they could have a lot of indirect impact without having to leave. I have to read up on them, they open to alliances with anyone else like Russian gargoyles or the Asuras of India detailed in Pantheons?

They literally don't care. If it's not in China they're not interested.

8. Myrlin
The problem is he's more or less acting like a good guy right now. He has nebulous long term plans that will take over 1000 years. We've barely passed 8 in the last 30. So players in the year 5016 might care about Myelin he's totally irrelevant now.

What's more unnerving about him isn't so much his essence fragments (thought there was a cap, so no unlimited Supreme Nexus Knights) but rather, his strange ability to control tectonic entities en masse.

This isn't a racial ability detailed for the Zllyphan so I figure it must be a unique magical experiment of his. Presently that's limited to the British Isles, but for how long?

I'm not sure how he's doing it... I don't think he was a Diabolist so it's probably not a permanence ward, though he probably does have the resource to hire someone for that for a bunch of 'summon and control entities' spells. You can't permanence-ward a supernatural being but nothing stopping you from warding the armor they're possessing. He could have also created a TTGD variant with very long durations...

Surprised noone else does this. He's not even using the best armor for it, the stuff Mystic Kuznya make would be better.

Also frightening is he seems to be able to endow tectonic entities (normally stupid) with skills. So far that's merely stuff like Land Navigation, but what if it doesn't stop there?

I'm sure some mages have some idea of Ghost Knights and might try to emulate what he's done.

He's just not much of a threat.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That's more or less the kind of thinking I was going on: Meddling is kind of a loose term for Plotting in my mind.

My only issue with that scenario is that Myrlin has no magic or artifact that would allow him to simply wipe out the Coalition that way. He is just not that powerful on his own, and pulling an artifact that just negates technology that way kind of destablizes the whole tech vs. magic thing. I agree he could use a power boost to bring him up to main villian status again, but that's going a wee bit overboard methinks.

I'm fine with Merlin coming in with SOMETHING to turn the tide, but it should be more of a tipping point in an already close battle than something that just smacks the CS down all by his lonesome. if he had THAT kind of power, he would have just taken over the NGR by now instead of coming all the way to North America first.

Not really.

We don't know the limits of the spell, for one. If it's relatively short range, requires a massive amount of PPE, and only works as well as it does because of a lay line Nexus then it's not a good offensive spell to take over.

This could be all about, "Perfect Storm" as it were.

It could be something as simple as a Legendary Spell that causes:

All non-magical physical inorganic MDC material within 1000 feet becomes SDC material. All non-magical MD weapons deal their normal damage in SD for 1 melee round.

Offensive? Meh. It's bad sure. If people could set it up. Though it'd be a lot like Tolkien's missile rift shield. Great, but once it was used once it wasn't that good.

It would just so happen that cast on a Nexus it has a range of 4000 and lasts for 4 rounds. So for 1 minute all CS forces in 4000 feet (non-psi's) have SDC armor and SD weapons.

MD spells with blast radius AoEs go off and CS troops get shredded that kind of confusion can unleash serious havok.

I'm still pretty sure I don't like the idea of that spell existing at all. It smacks too much of Plot Convience than anything. He doesn't even need any NEW Spell of Legend to turn the tide of the battle, really. a Crimson Wall of Lictalon and a charge of Nexus knights to force them against it would suffice for the same story purposes. this is the kind of thing that CWOL was created for after all

[Supergyro]

Rifts has a recurring problem of villains who aren't doing anything villainous.

Mrrlynn *could* be fearsome.. just imagine a character like that on Game of Thrones... a gestalt entity whom no one realizes is gestalt... but that's a very very specific type of setting, and one Palladium doesn't do well. He is the world's finest intrigue villain.

Every villain *should* have sections of 'here is what this villain does that a party would want to stop'. Mrrlynn (and to some extent ARCHIE-3) have the problem that they are both in plans where step 1 is "don't be conspicuous", and being inconspicuous is not something you can build a villain around. They need to be inconspicuous *and* doing something nasty.

[HWalsh]

Rifts has a recurring problem of villains who aren't doing anything villainous.

Mrrlynn *could* be fearsome.. just imagine a character like that on Game of Thrones... a gestalt entity whom no one realizes is gestalt... but that's a very very specific type of setting, and one Palladium doesn't do well. He is the world's finest intrigue villain.

Every villain *should* have sections of 'here is what this villain does that a party would want to stop'. Mrrlynn (and to some extent ARCHIE-3) have the problem that they are both in plans where step 1 is "don't be conspicuous", and being inconspicuous is not something you can build a villain around. They need to be inconspicuous *and* doing something nasty.

ARCHIE Three isn't even evil alignment anymore.

I don't think he's meant to be a villain in modern Rifts. He protects people from the Horune and Spluggorth. He worries about his friend, Hagan. He focuses on helping the Cyber-Knights/Reid's Rangers fight Vampires.

He's morphing into this silent secret benevolent defender of North America.

I LOVE ARCHIE Three.

[Marcethus]

That's more or less the kind of thinking I was going on: Meddling is kind of a loose term for Plotting in my mind.

My only issue with that scenario is that Myrlin has no magic or artifact that would allow him to simply wipe out the Coalition that way. He is just not that powerful on his own, and pulling an artifact that just negates technology that way kind of destablizes the whole tech vs. magic thing. I agree he could use a power boost to bring him up to main villian status again, but that's going a wee bit overboard methinks.

I'm fine with Merlin coming in with SOMETHING to turn the tide, but it should be more of a tipping point in an already close battle than something that just smacks the CS down all by his lonesome. if he had THAT kind of power, he would have just taken over the NGR by now instead of coming all the way to North America first.

Not really.

We don't know the limits of the spell, for one. If it's relatively short range, requires a massive amount of PPE, and only works as well as it does because of a lay line Nexus then it's not a good offensive spell to take over.

This could be all about, "Perfect Storm" as it were.

It could be something as simple as a Legendary Spell that causes:

All non-magical physical inorganic MDC material within 1000 feet becomes SDC material. All non-magical MD weapons deal their normal damage in SD for 1 melee round.

Offensive? Meh. It's bad sure. If people could set it up. Though it'd be a lot like Tolkien's missile rift shield. Great, but once it was used once it wasn't that good.

It would just so happen that cast on a Nexus it has a range of 4000 and lasts for 4 rounds. So for 1 minute all CS forces in 4000 feet (non-psi's) have SDC armor and SD weapons.

MD spells with blast radius AoEs go off and CS troops get shredded that kind of confusion can unleash serious havok.

I'm still pretty sure I don't like the idea of that spell existing at all. It smacks too much of Plot Convience than anything. He doesn't even need any NEW Spell of Legend to turn the tide of the battle, really. a Crimson Wall of Lictalon and a charge of Nexus knights to force them against it would suffice for the same story purposes. this is the kind of thing that CWOL was created for after all

This could be a modified version of the Paradox Spell Universal Balance.

[Marcethus]

Rifts has a recurring problem of villains who aren't doing anything villainous.

Mrrlynn *could* be fearsome.. just imagine a character like that on Game of Thrones... a gestalt entity whom no one realizes is gestalt... but that's a very very specific type of setting, and one Palladium doesn't do well. He is the world's finest intrigue villain.

Every villain *should* have sections of 'here is what this villain does that a party would want to stop'. Mrrlynn (and to some extent ARCHIE-3) have the problem that they are both in plans where step 1 is "don't be conspicuous", and being inconspicuous is not something you can build a villain around. They need to be inconspicuous *and* doing something nasty.

ARCHIE Three isn't even evil alignment anymore.

I don't think he's meant to be a villain in modern Rifts. He protects people from the Horune and Spluggorth. He worries about his friend, Hagan. He focuses on helping the Cyber-Knights/Reid's Rangers fight Vampires.

He's morphing into this silent secret benevolent defender of North America.


I LOVE ARCHIE Three.

IIRC Reid's Ranger's only had one Cyber-Knight and he was evil. Unless they updated the info in the Vampire Sourcebook then I do not know as I only have Vampire Kingdom's to go on.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That's more or less the kind of thinking I was going on: Meddling is kind of a loose term for Plotting in my mind.

My only issue with that scenario is that Myrlin has no magic or artifact that would allow him to simply wipe out the Coalition that way. He is just not that powerful on his own, and pulling an artifact that just negates technology that way kind of destablizes the whole tech vs. magic thing. I agree he could use a power boost to bring him up to main villian status again, but that's going a wee bit overboard methinks.

I'm fine with Merlin coming in with SOMETHING to turn the tide, but it should be more of a tipping point in an already close battle than something that just smacks the CS down all by his lonesome. if he had THAT kind of power, he would have just taken over the NGR by now instead of coming all the way to North America first.

Not really.

We don't know the limits of the spell, for one. If it's relatively short range, requires a massive amount of PPE, and only works as well as it does because of a lay line Nexus then it's not a good offensive spell to take over.

This could be all about, "Perfect Storm" as it were.

It could be something as simple as a Legendary Spell that causes:

All non-magical physical inorganic MDC material within 1000 feet becomes SDC material. All non-magical MD weapons deal their normal damage in SD for 1 melee round.

Offensive? Meh. It's bad sure. If people could set it up. Though it'd be a lot like Tolkien's missile rift shield. Great, but once it was used once it wasn't that good.

It would just so happen that cast on a Nexus it has a range of 4000 and lasts for 4 rounds. So for 1 minute all CS forces in 4000 feet (non-psi's) have SDC armor and SD weapons.

MD spells with blast radius AoEs go off and CS troops get shredded that kind of confusion can unleash serious havok.

I'm still pretty sure I don't like the idea of that spell existing at all. It smacks too much of Plot Convience than anything. He doesn't even need any NEW Spell of Legend to turn the tide of the battle, really. a Crimson Wall of Lictalon and a charge of Nexus knights to force them against it would suffice for the same story purposes. this is the kind of thing that CWOL was created for after all

This could be a modified version of the Paradox Spell Universal Balance.

Universal Balance does not equal destroying technology. it actually does nothing to technology persay, it just makes MDC things SDC. You might as well say you modify universal balance to automatically kill MDC creatures. That's not how the spell works.

No, the preposed spell is more or less the definition of plot convience, AKA Just making up whatever you wanted to do in the first place. Plus Mrrlyn has very limited access to temporal magic in the first place, having only 4 explictly listed temporal spells, so giving him a super version of a spell he does not have in a school that is not even a temporal magic class persay but a shaman is really pushing believability. Only temporal wizards can learn paradox shaman spells, not other classes or beings that can learn temporal magic, according to the rules

Magic does not simply wipe out technology in Rifts. not unless you want the CS to deploy magic surpression devices that negate all magic and make all supernatural beings and creatures of magic SDC in a large radius to balance it out. It's a cheep cop-out to avoid trying to think of how Myrrlin might actually have to fight the CS, so you make up some super spell that simply negates them. it does not fit Rifts themes, it does not fit with any existing magic, and worst of all, it's kind of boring to actually use.

Honestly, what's wrong with saying "Mrrlyn just opens a rift and unleashes a bunch of Nexus Knights to turn the tide of battle, and while doing that unleashes a hoard of thousands of Tetonic entities that possess the Coalition skelebots and congeal all the wreakage into massive entities that fight the robots, so the more the CS loses, the stronger Myrrlins side becomes". He does not need any new abilities to pull this off--what he already has is more than sufficent.

[HWalsh]

Magic does not simply wipe out technology in Rifts. not unless you want the CS to deploy magic surpression devices that negate all magic and make all supernatural beings and creatures of magic SDC in a large radius to balance it out.

No, technology just strikes from 10 times the range of magic, Is infinitely easier to use, is far more widespread, and damage-wise is superior.

It's a cheep cop-out to avoid trying to think of how Myrrlin might actually have to fight the CS, so you make up some super spell that simply negates them.

Okay. He fights them the same way the CS does. He magically spawns a 5,000,000 man army fully armed and armored from an area that can't possibly support that many people.

it does not fit Rifts themes, it does not fit with any existing magic, and worst of all, it's kind of boring to actually use.

Honestly, what's wrong with saying "Mrrlyn just opens a rift and unleashes a bunch of Nexus Knights to turn the tide of battle, and while doing that unleashes a hoard of thousands of Tetonic entities that possess the Coalition skelebots and congeal all the wreakage into massive entities that fight the robots, so the more the CS loses, the stronger Myrrlins side becomes". He does not need any new abilities to pull this off--what he already has is more than sufficent.

Thousands cannot turn the tide against millions. The CS gets Deus ex machina all the time. Merlin's entitled to it too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Except we're the ones writing the scenario, so it can be as close as we want it to be. after all, they are running out of material--who says they have millions to spare at this point? most of them will be tied up with the demons after all.

fighting bad writing with bad writing does not make your bad writing good.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly, i do think that the main reason he's not considered a bigger threat isthe fact that so far the zazshan intrigues and manipulations are confined to England.

though if some of the optional storylines in the GMG show up, you'd at least see New Camelot going "on crusade" into France.. which could be an interesting addition to the mess caused by the NGR's OP:seastorm, the CS expiditionary force, the Gargoyle Empire's splintering, and the Demonic invasion...

what i would like to see in future books is agents of his elsewhere in the world. perhaps seeking out powerful artifacts/knowledge to further his (unspecified) aims. pre-emptive strikes on potential heroes/champions that could be a threat to his plans. recruiting secret allies. etc.
even if zazshan/Mrryln himself can't extend power much beyond england, there is no reason why mortal agents of his can't be runnign around doing things. build him up as doing a lot of stuff in the shadows.

[Axelmania]

I ran out of people I consider world powers.

You can be a strong villain without being a 'world power', so long as you have the potential to wreck the world, even with small numbers.

I'm not going to rehash it with you but Tolkeen wasn't self defense. No other group has razed a city like that to the ground killing every last woman and child. The Four Horsemen did but they aren't around anymore to make the list.

I'm not entirely sure about that... there could be a lot of cities whose bones current empires are built on that just aren't particularly detailed. I consider it defense, it could also be considered a liberation of minnesota from its sorcerous dictators.

Women can cast spells too, why should they be spared? They used to say “Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal” a century ago. That wasn't entirely true since some couldn't handle the kick of higher-caliber rounds. Magic would do this moreso (unless of course you couldn't cast it, but then not everyone can build a gun, so buying talismans/scrolls is the equivalent) since physical strength wouldn't be a factor in firing it. In that way even children can be threats.

Innocents were evacuated by the cyber-knights, anyone left in the city when the CS finally broke it should be assumed to be hostiles. If Tolkeen imprisoned some to use as human shields then that only shows how evil they were and needed to be wiped out, and those hostages are Tolkeen's victims not the CS. Casualties of war, acceptable losses, triage, as someone put earlier.

Pretty much, but note: The CS doesn't do much against the vamps. ARCHIE even notes that Reid's Rangers are the only thing stopping them. He backs the Rangers, who are Cyber-Knights.

I'd have to check the context and phrasing of the quote you're talking about, is this in one of the new vampire books, or Aftermath? Reid's Rangers are a bit assortment of guys. Originally you had Raoul Lazarious, and I guess he has some other knights helping him now, but I still think it's primarily a non-cyberknight force. I'm doubtful they are the 'only' thing, considering there are other anti-vampire groups, like that Pantheons one lead by Kukulkans.

Canonically their raids are all small scale and are infrequent.

Yet have been going on long enough that they've built up pretty big slave populations, though I guess there's no telling how many of those humans are from other dimensions.

They literally don't care. If it's not in China they're not interested.

The Kings may not but other forces enjoying using China as a launching point could benefit from it, like the Russian Demons or Asura.

He's just not much of a threat.

Presently I agree, but I think he's got loads of potential once his power base expands. He's very careful and it seems like only supernatural protectors like Nog Henge and Pyrrcyval or Mary Sues with meta-gaming instincts like Tarn are suspicious of him.

ARCHIE Three isn't even evil alignment anymore.

I don't think he's meant to be a villain in modern Rifts. He protects people from the Horune and Spluggorth. He worries about his friend, Hagan. He focuses on helping the Cyber-Knights/Reid's Rangers fight Vampires.

He's morphing into this silent secret benevolent defender of North America.

I LOVE ARCHIE Three.

He sounds pretty cool... I kind of wrote him off but never understood his motives too well. Beginning to think I should reread everything on him now. Aside from Sourcebook 1 and Shemarrian Nation and Aftermath I guess notes about him in the 'reactions from other powers' type sections would also be useful.

Imagine how even more amazing he would get if he merged or partnered with that higher-numbered version of him on the moon...

This is making me think of the Brainiac versions now...

ARCHIE would probably be one of the stronger incentives to use the canonical Hacking rules in I think it was Rifter 3.

honestly, i do think that the main reason he's not considered a bigger threat isthe fact that so far the zazshan intrigues and manipulations are confined to England.

Even if it said that in England, it would only apply to the time it was set in. Is this still the case after the Aftermath timeline progression?

[glitterboy2098]

actually i wasn't referring to th extent of his powers. i'm not sure that distance limits for travel on his fragments were ever stated. i was referring to the fact that all his schemes and plans described in WB3 are pretty much limited just to England, Wales, Scottland, and (maybe) ireland. while part of that is likely due to the fact that WB3 came out well before the rest of europe was detailed, there isn't even hints towards wider ranged plots.

i think adding stuff about what he is doing in France, germany, spain, russia, etc would help engage his threat with the rest of the setting. i suggest him using agents to go after old grimore's, artifacts, and taking out potential rivals/threats-to-his-plans mainly because that makes for great plot hooks. especially if you give some examples for GM's to use right off and give an idea of the type of things involed.

for example, thinking just on the area i've been working on, he might go after the Black Book of Cyprianus, which purports to be a powerful book of spells and rituals, including the abiltiy to summon and controls devils.
or he might be trying to find the tomb where Ogier the Dane sleeps, waiting to be called back. said person could easily be spun into a champion of light that would oppose Zazshan.. and the sleeping king mythos is similar to king arthurs, which could ruin zazshan's ploy, especially if said person know the original arthur.

[Axelmania]

I'm surprised the Nunnehi aren't up to more, they're nearly as good as Zllyphan and also a race of guys, some are tattoo masters...

[SolCannibal]

Rifts has a recurring problem of villains who aren't doing anything villainous.

Mrrlynn *could* be fearsome.. just imagine a character like that on Game of Thrones... a gestalt entity whom no one realizes is gestalt... but that's a very very specific type of setting, and one Palladium doesn't do well. He is the world's finest intrigue villain.

Every villain *should* have sections of 'here is what this villain does that a party would want to stop'. Mrrlynn (and to some extent ARCHIE-3) have the problem that they are both in plans where step 1 is "don't be conspicuous", and being inconspicuous is not something you can build a villain around. They need to be inconspicuous *and* doing something nasty.

ARCHIE Three isn't even evil alignment anymore.

I don't think he's meant to be a villain in modern Rifts. He protects people from the Horune and Spluggorth. He worries about his friend, Hagan. He focuses on helping the Cyber-Knights/Reid's Rangers fight Vampires.

He's morphing into this silent secret benevolent defender of North America.

I LOVE ARCHIE Three.

So he's kind of slowly returning to what he was in the early years of the apocalypse, when his focus was in gathering people and guiding them in a effort to rebuild civilization? Now that is an unexpected twist to Hagan's influence on the old toaster. Or maybe it was the scare with the Mechanoids temporarily taking over their base started the two of them back on the rails, who knows. Goes to show how out of date i'm on Archie-related stuff from Shemarrian Nation and other books.

[glitterboy2098]

something that came to mind..

WB3 predates palladium's real efforts at metaplot. at that time they were seeding plot hooks into books (Zashan,the 4 horsemen, etc) with just enough detail for GM's to get an idea of how the big badguys work, and letting GM's come up with the details of the grand plots themselves. the days of palladium actually giving details of the grand plots these beings were involved with hadn't come yet. wouldn't come until a long time later. and them actually establishing the results of the metaplot is extremely new.

so Zashan and his schemes just fell into a Limbo. unlike some other of the seeded badguys from those earlier books (like ARCHIE or the CS) no freelancer or staff writer has taken up the mantle to fill out and expand on the england setting. at least so far. (i know there was a freelancer who had started writing one such book, but i haven't heard anything about it in years)

[The Beast]

...None of the freelancers were particuarlly interested in doing anything with Myrlin, Kevin was far too busy to get around to putting much in, and so Myrlin has turned into one of the more sad kinds of story villians: the one that gets a lot of screentime eairly in the show, clearly foreshadowing a great menance to come in later seasons (Hell he even got a line item in the Edict of Planetary Distress!)), only for the writers to more or less forget about him somewhere midseason and never really deliver on the eairly promise.

To be fair, I think the fact he got stuck in England more or less limited the range he had to influence future metaplots. They failed to give him or his minions any reliable mass-transportation method for meddling in other areas, and that made it too difficult to come up with specific plots for him to enact. Oh they would throw in references that he WAS plotting, but after enough time lasped they just sort of moved on....

...The problem is England is not a very popular setting. If Myrlin had been located in, say, the Federation of Magic, and was actively stirring up Duscon vs Lords of Magic vs Coalition for his own ends from the get go, we might not be having this conversation and Myrlin could well have been a main starring villian all along...

...But England is just not a popular place to base games out of, nor is there much there to draw game groups form Far away for more than a breif visit, so he sits off to the corner he was written into. England just didn't take off the way Kevin apparently hoped...

From what I gathered here over the years I get the feeling that not many people liked the spin on the King Arthur tale in the first place. I think it was Killer Cyborg that summed it up by saying that when PB did original stuff the book was popular (Atlantis, Vampire Kingdoms, etc), but the books where PB put their own spin on classic things weren't as popular. I've noticed that whenever someone does a poll and asked what their least-favorite Rifts book is/was WB3 tended to always be in the top three. I think if you factor that into what you've said it helps explain why the freelancers don't do anything with Mrrlyn.

Personally, at the time I liked the twist put on the old legend. It was done well before Hollywood started making everything "gritty" and, to me, seemed like a fresh idea. I feel though that if it had been released today I doubt I would've liked the story as much.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Alrik Vas]

Myrrlyn or whateverlyn his name reallyn is, has the standard problem that most master manipulators do.

You basically are actually nice, just, good etc...until it's time to pull the rug out from underneath everyone. If that time never comes, you're a good guy with an evil alignment...which is a bit embarrassing.

If England had been properly expanded like the NGR (as in, it had a second book) we might have seen him do some real villainy.

[glitterboy2098]

It would have helped if PB's write ups regarding knights and their codes had been more like historical ones. Where sexism, casual racism, arrogance, and other ugly aspects were not only allowed, but tacitly condoned and encouraged.

While Arthur and his knights are seen as a positive examples of knights because they were better behaved and were more devout than typical for the time most of the stories were written down, they were not paragons of virtue or social justice by modern standards. (And in pre-sixthteenth century versions of the tales, he and his knights were often not even better behaved or more devout. Le Mort d'arthur by Mallory, written in the 1400's, was the source of the idealized mythos most are familiar with, and completed a long process of rewriting of the tales to conform to the concept of chivalry then in vogue. Every generation since the tenth century had done similar, turning tales of a conquering ki g and his warriors into symbols of perfect knightly behavior)

If the knights of new Camelot had more in common with the underhanded, racist, sexist, power hungry and greedy knights of the old tales and medieval times, zashan's evil would be easier to rectify with the heroic image. It would be a thin veneer of heroism over a rotten core of archaic and ugly society.


It is worth remembering that zashan's previous effort with 'Arthur' was during the 4th century, going by the probable real world history for Arthur. So while he might be adopting some of the elements of the later revisions like Malory's, the core elements ought to resemble the mix of Roman, Celtic, Scoti (Irish), Pictish, and Saxon social elements of that time.

It is also worth noting arthur is really evil at points even in Malory's version. Such killing all newborns in the land in an effort to kill Mordred right after birth. Which was advised by merlin.

[SolCannibal]

It would have helped if PB's write ups regarding knights and their codes had been more like historical ones. Where sexism, casual racism, arrogance, and other ugly aspects were not only allowed, but tacitly condoned and encouraged.

While Arthur and his knights are seen as a positive examples of knights because they were better behaved and were more devout than typical for the time most of the stories were written down, they were not paragons of virtue or social justice by modern standards. (And in pre-sixthteenth century versions of the tales, he and his knights were often not even better behaved or more devout. Le Mort d'arthur by Mallory, written in the 1400's, was the source of the idealized mythos most are familiar with, and completed a long process of rewriting of the tales to conform to the concept of chivalry then in vogue. Every generation since the tenth century had done similar, turning tales of a conquering ki g and his warriors into symbols of perfect knightly behavior)

If the knights of new Camelot had more in common with the underhanded, racist, sexist, power hungry and greedy knights of the old tales and medieval times, zashan's evil would be easier to rectify with the heroic image. It would be a thin veneer of heroism over a rotten core of archaic and ugly society.


It is worth remembering that zashan's previous effort with 'Arthur' was during the 4th century, going by the probable real world history for Arthur. So while he might be adopting some of the elements of the later revisions like Malory's, the core elements ought to resemble the mix of Roman, Celtic, Scoti (Irish), Pictish, and Saxon social elements of that time.

It is also worth noting arthur is really evil at points even in Malory's version. Such killing all newborns in the land in an effort to kill Mordred right after birth. Which was advised by merlin.

Actually, Arthur's intent in Malory's version was never to kill the newborns, as doing so might bring a seed of considerable resentment against him - as it actually did - in the years to come, but to gather all of them and have those nobleborn children reared in a distant but safe place, the reason they all were in a ship, that was wrecked by storm in the Channel, when fate intervened to do its work.

Honestly, the knights per se never really bothered me, it's a post-apocalyptic setting so people reconstructing society in weird ways is ok, specially with magic and transdimensional immigrants mixed in. Mutants In Avalon touches on many of the same elements and does manage to come out as an entertaining setting to play with.

What actually bothered me with WB3's particular take was how it felt somewhat haphazard and shodilly set up, even before knowing the pretty similarly themed Mutants In Avalon. There's distinct lack of strong motives for people to rally toward Camelot and Arr'thuu - while threats exist, with the atlantean colony in London and the fomorians in Scotland being potentially quite daunting indeed, neither of them feels very much like the looming shadow in the horizon of the saxons in the middle ages or an elusive "time of greatest need" to bring the return of a great (lost) king and with nothing to really occupy NPCs or PCs in Camelot's court the one plot that comes to the foreground is exactly the one that should not, to the point that possibly half the factions described (if not more) get to mention at a point or another how they are somewhat distrusting/uncertain of Camelot's actual intentions/trustworthiness.

Also, Arr'thuu as a central figure in the conflicts occuring in the court should be far more fleshed out than he actually. We are told, repeatedly, how he is supposedly a great, heroic and charismatic leader, but there's little to show for it, what compounded with his being doubly manipulated by Zazshan as Mrrlyn and Guinevere both makes the king feel less tragic hero and more like a chump.
Not to mention that Camelot is distinctly unimpressive as kingdoms go, giving an overall impression that Zazshan is not very competent at his great plan or seriously trying to win anything, specially when one takes in account that unlike a number of intruding alien intelligences it has already set a foothold in Rifts Earth or compares its results with those of his considerably more successful rival Splynncryth.

Not even going into how a number of big hitters in the Megaverse, like Thoth, possibly Loki-G and a bunch of others i don't care to remember right now already know Mrrlyn for what it is, also making his masquerade something of a paper-thin disguise...

[glitterboy2098]

i'll admit my source on the malory version didn't describe that part well. still, forcing families to give up their kids into fosterage, just because the king got a little too close to his sister, isn't exactly a good aligned act.

[SolCannibal]

i'll admit my source on the malory version didn't describe that part well. still, forcing families to give up their kids into fosterage, just because the king got a little too close to his sister, isn't exactly a good aligned act.

Actually, over a prophecy on Merlin's part about how a noble child born in that year would one day spark the civil war that would lead to the fall of the kingdom. The identity of the specific child wasn't even known, otherwise it's a pretty good bet Mordred would be the only one picked.

Anyways and back to Zazshan... and i the only one who notices that fragments of the book seem to imply Mrrlyn and the other fragments have some degree of independence and need to contact each other to actually communicate & exchange information between each other? I remember at least a few parts giving me such an impression, what seemed curious to me, as it gives an idea of Zazshan's fragments as closer to master vampires or witches than the "avatar" essence fragments of supernatural intelligences as described in CB1 and Dragon & Gods.

In fact some parts of the text about them and "lesser fragments" like the Nexus Knights seem to model the "demonic summons" in the service of a number of supernatural intelligences than "traditional" essence fragments used to possess and set up their infiltration in newly discovered dimensions. My feeling anyway and i'm sure others will probably see it in different ways.

[Axelmania]

I figure the more enlightened chivalry is due to it being a post-modern cataclysm so you'd have stuff like suffrage in England's history supporting female knights and stuff which I don't know to have existed in Arthurian mythos (although I love the Fate/stay Night interpretation...) although in a post apocalypse I could see regression on that front too. With the world as dangerous as it is, I could see women being discouraged from combat positions since they would be considered of higher value for growing the population.

[SolCannibal]

I figure the more enlightened chivalry is due to it being a post-modern cataclysm so you'd have stuff like suffrage in England's history supporting female knights and stuff which I don't know to have existed in Arthurian mythos (although I love the Fate/stay Night interpretation...) although in a post apocalypse I could see regression on that front too. With the world as dangerous as it is, I could see women being discouraged from combat positions since they would be considered of higher value for growing the population.

No big deal either way and could vary from kingdom to kingdom for a number of reasons simply enough, i guess.

[MikelAmroni]

The problem with Mrrlyn for me has always been how there are no other powers for him to interact with, no other plots for him to counter, etc. The seeds are there though:

• Bath is a wonderful city to have as a contrast to Camelot. Allied, but not beholden. I use the stuff done for Chaos Earth in Britain as the basis for the Order of Knights who pretty much form the backbone of Bath's Kingdom.
• Berwynmoore Kingdom is a wonderful bludgeon to use as a human enemy for Camelot. Lots of intrigue to horn in on, lots of stupidly evil acts for selfish reasons to be done and undone here.
• The Goblin Kingdom of South Wales is another great enemy for Camelot and all humanity.
• As mentioned the Formorians are an obvious enemy.
• The Splugorth are another obvious enemy.
• I actually have London being a situation not unlike Chi-Town actually. There is an organized core that is New Splynn, around which there is a wall and a no man's land. After that is the ruins of London. In it gangs of good and ill intent vie for a piece of the pie. Some fight to protect the remnants of humanity that Camelot and Bath have forsaken. Others fight simply to get more power and wealth out of a city centuries old. And then it roughs out to wilderness on the outskirts that lead into the more verdant land of England itself.
• What about Scotland aside from where the giants rule? Why can't there be some arcology of technological power up there somewhere? Doesn't have to be NGR level. It could be on par with Northern Gun and be powerful enough to secure its own future.
• Ireland! The fae could be a major force if they were organized by a Oberon/Titania type of ruler. And there are human kingdoms too. How do they survive? Links to the Celtic Pantheon perhaps?
• The Druids are another power. They may not count themselves as one, but the Formorians certainly do.
• Kingdoms and city-states in France are an obvious answer for expansion of Mrrlyn's intrigues.

England is rife with ideas that beg to be expanded upon, but no one has done it to date, and my own work has been haphazard and shoddy in its consistency. Maybe one day I'll actually finish it.

Also the problems with the very ill-defined knights was one of the first things I had to solve personally before I could begin. Also why there was such a focus on reclaiming the old ways. As it turns out I linked both to what I saw as the British Isle's greatest problem in the Golden Age: A viable export that was solely British. So I had them turn to highly commercialized scholarship and historical tourism as a driving force. Also there was a subtle increase in psychic potential in the Isles that was because of the same people moving in the shadows. Who are these people you ask? Irrelevant! Cause the Coming of the Rifts and then the Splugorth pretty much annihilated their big plans. Now they scrape by in the ruins of London, wanting to be more than they are. But unknown to most, they are the one of the sources of the Knightly codes, the training methods, etc. The other is the forces that went on to found Bath.

To the larger point, An invasion of the Magic Zone is actually possible, but I don't see him allying with Dunscon. Dunscon's too prideful. I see him raising up some smaller power he can control from the start and making him powerful beyond belief. And using Camelot to bankroll it. I see him doing the same in Europe proper actually. Done right, what you would see is powerful heroes rising up out of no where with essences of Zazshin at their side. Possibly in his Mrrlyn guise (though he might adopt the more common Merlin name in America). And they would ally with the likes of Dweomer, not Dunscon. Dweomer would be skittish, able to detect (but not identify) the presence behind them, but they would take the generally good thrust of the new kingdom over Dunscon any day. Especially one with the resource to deal with the Demon/Deevil problem. Zazshin would, at the same time, stir up the CS and the True Fed, so they eliminate each other, ideally. His new kingdom would go defensive in nature. Sure they have to deal with the CS, but really, if you have one guy going after you and one guy staying put, you deal with the active threat first. Destabilize the True Fed and let Dweomer and the new Kingdom rise up to bring a bit more balance. They Zazshin begins manipulating other people in NA, slowly but surely. Zazshin would count on the reclusive nature of the Three to insulate himself from one of the biggest powers that could do something about him. He'd also establish pyramids to link Camelot, the North American Kingdom, and any others around the world. Creating the only way known to cross the Atlantic open to most champions of good. His three kingdoms would join in an alliance.

And all it would take then is to identify any particularly big enemy as an icon of evil and suddenly he's got every do gooder around fighting them while he conserves his own kingdom's strength. Rinse repeat until he's managed to subtly take out enemies. Each ruled in the shadows by an extension of himself. Some with no idea they are part of his network. And that is how he stays out of the sight of Splynncryth. Ideally for Zanshin, he takes over enough that one day he turns his attention on London, and then the other outposts of Atlantis and takes them all out simultaneously before moving on Atlantis itself. Ideally he manages to lock up dimensional travel during his invasion (probably using Splynncryth's own ideas) and manages to take him down.

Now that last scenario would never happen in a published setting, but it is the sort of plan Zazshin has in my mind. He fools all the forces of good into fighting his battles for him, willingly, and of their own volition. He just sits back, pulls the strings, and never exposes himself or his base of power. Until the day comes when the entire world does his bidding. The evil of his plans is not the methodology. Zazshin is a patient leech. He doesn't need to be mustache twirling evil. He just has to convince the powers of goodness that his enemies are theirs, and that maintaining his network of control is in their best interests. The evil is in how good is subverted to the intelligence's ends. And the ideal worst thing would be someone trying to say exactly that was happening, and they be ignored and persecuted by the champions of good.

[SolCannibal]

On a somewhat related swerve, Geoffrey (one of the main refeerences arthurian literature/myth as a whole builds upon) depicted Arthur as a king of Britain who defeated the Saxons and established an empire over Britain, Ireland, Iceland, Norway and Gaul.

- Britain and Ireland we mostly know from WB3.
- Same can be said about much as "Gaul", or at least in France, that is mostly blood druid & gargoyle country.
- Iceland & Norway in Rifts Earth, what do we have about them? Ain't Wothan the Slayer (the rogue Sploog from Panthheonns of Meggaverse) there?

PS: Ok, my bad contrary to my recolections from just reading too much Asterix as a kid, Gaul covered a lot more of land than just France, places such as Luxembourg, Belgium, most of Switzerland, Northern Italy, as well as the parts of the Netherlands and Germany on the west bank of the Rhine.

[Mack]

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