Damage multipliers...

[DocS]

How do damage multipliers work?

For example.

Psynetic booster makes psychic attacks do 50% more damage.... what happens of you implant *two* of them on someone? Is it +100% or is it 50% more over the previous 150%?

Psychic burst makes a psychic ability do double max damage... what happens if that is also a critical strike, is that 4x the base or 3x?

[Shorty Lickens]

I'd say each multiplier is off the base.
So 50 percent plus 50 percent is bonus 100 percent.

For that reason, I would have to ask myself WHY it gives a bonus, and if so, would each new implant be 100 percent effective.
For balance purposes I'd likely only allow one implant to give any bonus, and more of the same dont do anything.

[Marcethus]

I too am not sure that I would allow someone to take two of the same booster implant. In the case of different implants or abilities increasing the same damage type I would run off of the base damage.

That second part is a good question. Without reading Psychic Burst (What book is that in?) I would have to say it depends on the wording of how the power is written.

[eliakon]

As I recall damage multiples add
so if you have a critical (x2) and a deathblow (x2) you get a x3 and not a x4.
This seems like it should work the same way.
Add up all the % increases and add them at the end in one lump sum. Otherwise you quickly get into cinematic territory where you can have a single attack doing thousands of points of damage... unless of course that is what you want. Then full speed ahead.

[Marcethus]

As I recall damage multiples add
so if you have a critical (x2) and a deathblow (x2) you get a x3 and not a x4.
This seems like it should work the same way.
Add up all the % increases and add them at the end in one lump sum. Otherwise you quickly get into cinematic territory where you can have a single attack doing thousands of points of damage... unless of course that is what you want. Then full speed ahead.

Do you recall where it says that?

[Killer Cyborg]

As I recall damage multiples add
so if you have a critical (x2) and a deathblow (x2) you get a x3 and not a x4.
This seems like it should work the same way.
Add up all the % increases and add them at the end in one lump sum. Otherwise you quickly get into cinematic territory where you can have a single attack doing thousands of points of damage... unless of course that is what you want. Then full speed ahead.

,
Yup. That's how it seems to work.

[eliakon]

As I recall damage multiples add
so if you have a critical (x2) and a deathblow (x2) you get a x3 and not a x4.
This seems like it should work the same way.
Add up all the % increases and add them at the end in one lump sum. Otherwise you quickly get into cinematic territory where you can have a single attack doing thousands of points of damage... unless of course that is what you want. Then full speed ahead.

Do you recall where it says that?

I will dig around and see if I can find the exact source. But no, not off the top of my head I can't recall it no, sorry.

[DocS]

For balance purposes I'd likely only allow one implant to give any bonus, and more of the same dont do anything.

It never limits any implant to 'can have only one', and in multiple places discusses additional effects of having mulitples of one implant.

As each amplifier enhances damage while lowers ISP, there is an intuitive mechanism why more would amplify more (each amplifier is channelling an additional 10% of your ISP into the abilities).

[bobharly]

I play first edition, and I saw that rule, or something like it. The language was something like, 'multiple critical strikes add together, so critical strike attack and a critical strike roll are x3.' I just spent 15 minutes looking for it again, but I can't remember where I saw it now. I do remember though that it was in some obscure place, not in the main combat rules.

[Marcethus]

As I recall damage multiples add
so if you have a critical (x2) and a deathblow (x2) you get a x3 and not a x4.
This seems like it should work the same way.
Add up all the % increases and add them at the end in one lump sum. Otherwise you quickly get into cinematic territory where you can have a single attack doing thousands of points of damage... unless of course that is what you want. Then full speed ahead.

Do you recall where it says that?

I will dig around and see if I can find the exact source. But no, not off the top of my head I can't recall it no, sorry.

I can help narrow it down. It's not in the Nightbane Main Book. I just read through the combat section a day or two ago. (I am refreshing my memory for my to be run Nightbane Game.)

[Axelmania]

With critical strikes, a x2 is treated as +100% when cumulating with another x2.

I don't think that is necessarily the policy of how it works with other multipliers though, like for example an Apok or Sea Inquisitor or a nightbane enchanted weapon.

Personally I like to see multipliers stacked for big damage. It's also just easier calculations. If you only want to multiply base damage then you should say that. Except for situations where I'm told 1x2x2=3 I will say it is 4.

[HWalsh]

With critical strikes, a x2 is treated as +100% when cumulating with another x2.

I don't think that is necessarily the policy of how it works with other multipliers though, like for example an Apok or Sea Inquisitor or a nightbane enchanted weapon.

Personally I like to see multipliers stacked for big damage. It's also just easier calculations. If you only want to multiply base damage then you should say that. Except for situations where I'm told 1x2x2=3 I will say it is 4.

Pretty sure "critical damage" and "damage" are different things. I'm also pretty sure I've seen this explained for just generic multipliers.

So, any and all, multipliers go off of the base.

So it's not: 1*2*2=4

it's: 1(1+multiplicative)

So a pair of amplifiers that increased by 50% each would be: 1(1+0.5+0.5) or 1*2

[Axelmania]

I only remember seeing it for criticals so those are the only multipliers I'll treat that way.

Otherwise, two +50%s are 225% not 200%

[HWalsh]

I only remember seeing it for criticals so those are the only multipliers I'll treat that way.

Otherwise, two +50%s are 225% not 200%

Your table, your rules

[Axelmania]

I have never owned a table.

[Supergyro]

So no one can find in any book where it says?

On the one hand, doubling double damage being triple damage does limit the characters.

On the other hand, doubling double damage being quadruple damage is basic math.

[bobharly]

OK, I have it. 1st Edition Rules, Rifts core book, pg 35. Under Hand to Hand Combat, step 4: "...Critical strikes do double damage. Combined critical strikes, like a natural 20 and a jump attack, do triple damage. Add the damage bonus to the roll before doubling or tripling..."

The rest of this debate is an issue of language. The words "Double" and "Triple" imply multiplication, however in the example above this intuitive approach does not appear to be multiplication as the "key words" would imply, but rather the formula that the game is using is "Add another 100% of the base damage." While properly worded would settle the dispute, I'm not sure I would have understood the proper wording when I was kid, and so (I presume) the authors likely went with a simpler wording of double and triple for mass appeal of those who want to play a game and not debate mathematical word problems.

Hope this helps, but as usual House Rules Rule.

[drewkitty ~..~]

How do damage multipliers work?

For example.

Psynetic booster makes psychic attacks do 50% more damage.... what happens of you implant *two* of them on someone? Is it +100% or is it 50% more over the previous 150%?

Psychic burst makes a psychic ability do double max damage... what happens if that is also a critical strike, is that 4x the base or 3x?

Evil GMs might have them negate each other out. Leaving the char with no bonus at all.

I would rule the char would receive only the base bonus of one and the penalties of having both.

Crit strike doubling always comes after any other bonuses to damage unless otherwise noted.

[DocS]

Evil GMs might have them negate each other out. Leaving the char with no bonus at all.

I would rule the char would receive only the base bonus of one and the penalties of having both.

Neither of those rulings have any basis in the rules, but it's good to know you'll ignore the rules if it means you get to annoy your players....

[Marcethus]

Another prime example of the doubling modifier. The Apok does double damage to all SN creatures. If he wields a weapon that does double damage to SN creatures as well, (IE a magic sword that deals 2d6 normally but against SN it doubles to 4d6.) Would the Apok's doubling of the damage apply to the base 2d6 or to the 4d6 the sword does to SN? As Drew said Critical Strikes are always listed as doubling the damage after all other modifications and bonuses have been applied first.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Evil GMs might have them negate each other out. Leaving the char with no bonus at all.

I would rule the char would receive only the base bonus of one and the penalties of having both.

Neither of those rulings have any basis in the rules, but it's good to know you'll ignore the rules if it means you get to annoy your players....

You asked how people would interpret the rules/text, and I did.

I even said what I could see what Evil GM might do.

I can see a Mun…Liberal GM saying that using two would end up adding 125% of the base damage to the power's damage.

Besides Eli had already stated the book cannon of the rules, about what would happen if a GM even allowed it to happen. So I was unbound (unlike some unhappy rep. delegates) from having to say what the canon rules said.
Even if I was still bound by not presenting my ideas as canon.
Even though they do follow the canon rule that says the GM is free to modify things for his or her games as they see fit.

So I have given a range of options that might happen if a char had gotten two psi boosters implanted from a GM's prerogative.

[Axelmania]

Basically just 'critical strike' multipliers are crippled. Until someone can show otherwise that it applies to other multipliers, I'm using standard math.

Rifts is deadly to SDC humans, big multipliers aren't going to make it any more deadly for them, but it can increase the danger to big 'hundred thousand' MDC intelligences/gods, and that's fun.

The big threats to those guys are otherwise stuff like luring them into a room full of MD TNT or fusion blocks (cheaper than missiles) and igniting them all simultaneously, and these attacks don't benefit from multiple multipliers which is usually stuff like HtH attacks from special classes and special weapons, or sometimes psionics (third eye, astral avenger, mindwerks psynetic)

[DocS]

Another prime example of the doubling modifier. The Apok does double damage to all SN creatures. If he wields a weapon that does double damage to SN creatures as well, (IE a magic sword that deals 2d6 normally but against SN it doubles to 4d6.) Would the Apok's doubling of the damage apply to the base 2d6 or to the 4d6 the sword does to SN? As Drew said Critical Strikes are always listed as doubling the damage after all other modifications and bonuses have been applied first.

This can make a biiiig difference.

Millennium tree staffs do 10x damage to some supernatural evils...

In the hands of an Apok, it's the difference between doing 11x damage or 20x

[DocS]

You asked how people would interpret the rules/text, and I did.

The point is that the rules don't really explain it. There's not a whole lot to interpret.

"Limit the player to one amplifier" can be defended... "Let the player have two, but after implantation tell him he has all the negative effects of two but only the positive effects of one..." is simply a jerk ruling.

Yes, a GM *can* change the rules however he likes, but a jerk ruling is still a jerk ruling.

[Marcethus]

Another prime example of the doubling modifier. The Apok does double damage to all SN creatures. If he wields a weapon that does double damage to SN creatures as well, (IE a magic sword that deals 2d6 normally but against SN it doubles to 4d6.) Would the Apok's doubling of the damage apply to the base 2d6 or to the 4d6 the sword does to SN? As Drew said Critical Strikes are always listed as doubling the damage after all other modifications and bonuses have been applied first.

This can make a biiiig difference.

Millennium tree staffs do 10x damage to some supernatural evils...

In the hands of an Apok, it's the difference between doing 11x damage or 20x

This is why I brought it up. I figured the Apok was a perfect example of the doubling question.