Best no magic (initially), no energy, no vibro blade sword..

[tsh77769]

Why no magic (initially)? Because I hate magic and want to see what can be done without it. Then after, I'll consider a magic treatment that does not require PPE or ISP on the part of the user. In particular, I like the Ceremony/Dance of Weapon Blessing from Africa and the Pattern of Wounding from S. Am 2.

Why no energy blade? Need a physical core to add strength damage and be able to parry.

Why no vibro blade? Don't want to run out of batteries.

Here's what I have found...

First I would select a material, in this case the preference being for Kisentite or Anira Steel (Naiden equivalent to Kisentite) both mentioned in Aliens Unlimited with Kisentite also being in Rifts. Please advise of other interesting special materials to use for weapons.

Next I would look at either the Dwarven weapon bonuses originating in PFRPG or the precision weapon section in Galaxy Guide. They are, almost, identical (with the precision weapon from GG being marginally cheaper in one or two specific cases).

Additionally I would look at PFRPG Eastern Territories Pg 80 for a group of high master Dwarven weapon smiths known as the Hex who make Dwarven weapons that double the bonuses. Yes, double. Alternatively, same book pg 99 or 100 has something about the Steel Anvil where he offers Dwarven weapons that have either +1 to strike or parry bonuses or +2 to damage bonuses per bonus/price group.

Alternatively, HU Hardware Weapons characters can forge a superior weapon from scratch with some decent bonuses. No where near the above but a fraction of the price.

Now, that done, you can apply the aforementioned Dance of Blessing Weapons and/or Pattern of Wounding.

I don't think it can be much if any better. Challengers?

tsh77769

[kaid]

For this one again if you are okay pulling from elsewhere look at splicers. They have a large number of bio organic blades and melee weapons that are pure tech origin. Lemurian stuff is pretty similar to it but requires some PPE periodically although it can be supplied by simply being near a ley line and also living organisms.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Check this topic out….

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=149107

[Axelmania]

I'm about 50% sure that a Phase Sword might qualify. They're weird.

As for vibro-blades running of batteries: that seems entirely theoretical since even though they should, I don't think I ever read how long they last. Neuro-Maces got charges, and the Power Halberd in Phase World got a duration, but I've never seen a duration for other vibro-weapons.

[kaid]

That is why the splicers weapons are nice just keep them fed and they don't require any other power sources.

[dragonfett]

I'm about 50% sure that a Phase Sword might qualify. They're weird.

As for vibro-blades running of batteries: that seems entirely theoretical since even though they should, I don't think I ever read how long they last. Neuro-Maces got charges, and the Power Halberd in Phase World got a duration, but I've never seen a duration for other vibro-weapons.

I don't remember off hand, but IIRC vibro weapons have a battery life of 1 hour of continuous use (or 240 melee rounds of activation), and they run off of a special e-clip that is small enough to fit inside the hilt.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm about 50% sure that a Phase Sword might qualify. They're weird.

As for vibro-blades running of batteries: that seems entirely theoretical since even though they should, I don't think I ever read how long they last. Neuro-Maces got charges, and the Power Halberd in Phase World got a duration, but I've never seen a duration for other vibro-weapons.

It's mentioned somewhere (and like the previous poster, I don't know where in the 50+ books it appears) They do run off special eclips that fit in the hilt. There's not a 'duration' listed as it's 'effectively unlimited' as long as you don't just turn it on and let it hum all day and night.

There's side handed mention in the entry for light sabers.

Sorry.... "Wilks Laser Swords" in Merc Ops page 104. The Laser sword doesn't sell as well as vibro blades... because.. I don't know the people in rifts are stupid. It's a frigging light saber...

But the "REASON" it's stated not to sell well is that the constant laser sword draws alot more power than your normal Vibro blade, and has a duration of 15+5D6 minutes. Where in it sputters out. The inconsistency is the reason given as to why they're not selling as well. Which is frankly a load of poop.

If they (The laser swords) run for 15+5D6 minutes. You as a user would figure this out, where in it'd be "This thing can stay lit and swinging for 20-45 minutes on one charge... so... being a guy that's swinging a light saber at someone. I recharge it when it gets to 20 minutes. That's 80 melee rounds minimum before you need to recharge it. Frankly if you're swinging a sword that does 5D6 MD at something for MORE than 80 continuous melee rounds, and it's (Or they) isn't/aren't dead yet. You need to put your sword back on your belt and advance to the rear with a quickness.

But the reason I bring this up, is that the entry side handedly mentions vibro blades, in saying that it draws alot more power than a vibro blade so it doesn't run nearly as long as a vibro blade does on one charge (Which equals one eclip via the built in charger on the laser sword)

The direct quote is "However the blade draws a considerable amount of energy and doesn't have anywhere near the operating time as a vibro weapon."

So... taking that into account, if the minimum a "Laser sword" *Coughlightsabercough* will run is 20 minutes and up to 45, and it's 'not anywhere near the operating time of a vibro blade" I think it's safe to say that the vibro blade has a run time of two, three or more than the lightsaber.

I seem to remember the 'One hour/240 melees' thing too but I can't for the life of me remember where

[ShadowLogan]

It's mentioned somewhere (and like the previous poster, I don't know where in the 50+ books it appears) They do run off special eclips that fit in the hilt. There's not a 'duration' listed as it's 'effectively unlimited' as long as you don't just turn it on and let it hum all day and night.

WB10 Juicer Uprising has a vibro-blade spiked armor with a 12hr duration using a stock eclip (vibro-blades use a special eclip IIRC)

The 1hour figure is mentioned in the old FAQ #52 Equipment/Weapons section. If that is pulled from an obscure reference in a book I don't know. Not sure if this reference in Merc Ops helps, but the Vibro-Garrotte (pg108) uses the 1 hour duration figure, not sure if the figure is used previously somewhere else.

But the "REASON" it's stated not to sell well is that the constant laser sword draws alot more power than your normal Vibro blade, and has a duration of 15+5D6 minutes. Where in it sputters out. The inconsistency is the reason given as to why they're not selling as well. Which is frankly a load of poop.

I think there are a several useage reasons the Laser Sword might not do well:
-Impervious to Energy (and other energy modifiers) would make the weapon less useful, IF Vibro-blades energy field is not considered an energy weapon for the spell/ability and is considered a physical attack, not to mention Laser Resistant materials exist (like the Glitterboy)
-It can not be used to parry an incoming attack, this necessitates a second item that can IF one is going to attempt to parry
-the duration of the charge. While I agree that if you are in a melee fight long enough for that to be an issue..., in the long run it can be a potential downside unless you recharge the built-in battery after 15minutes or battle (which ever comes first).
--Old habits with a vibroblade (or regular blade) might encourage "bad habbit" of leaving it on when you don't need it on so it is always "ready", which could explain the duration downside having such weight. Especially if the actual use during the duration doesn't seem to factor into the duration (ie yesterday I sliced up that CS SAMAS wreck with 10 hits and got 30minutes of straight use, but today I didn't smack anything with it and only got 18minutes of straight use, and last week...)

Then there might be some "psychological" reasons playing on the Laser Sword's lack of adoption that has nothing to do with the technology itself:
-The only real market with a comparable product is Techno-Wizardry (Flaming sword, Ice Blade, Lightblade, etc)
-Lack of "tech" market only competition (unlike Vibroblades), only Wilk's produces the item like this in NA, so the lack of competitors "knocking off" might have an impact psychologically
-the "pure" energy blade might have people thinking its some type of magic weapon (if they encounter it as opposed to in the shop, so if they see it in the shop might pass on it without doing research or even bothering to "try it" if they recover one)
-the smaller Wilk's Laser Knife (WB14) could be negatively impacting how the weapon is viewed/received as the newer weapon doesn't seem to address the main weakness of the knife (variable duration), though has increased the reach (~x4.5) and potency (~x2).

[Axelmania]

The hour might be for smaller e-clips like the kind you'd use in a laser wand and then the many-hours for the standard e-clips. I think the Wilks Laser Knife/Sword both use standard e-clips right?

Anyway, how hard would it be to mind-control a Xiticix Digger if you could manage to capture one (hard since they usually flee combat) and get them to make a stockpile of resin weapons to use?

[Alrik Vas]

Resin weapons from wormwood are also mega damage, yeah?

Can't remember it they were mentioned already.

[flatline]

Resin weapons from wormwood are also mega damage, yeah?

Can't remember it they were mentioned already.

Awwwww...you beat me to it.

There are non-magic crystal MD melee weapons in one of the phase world books. Don't remember the details except that they're strangely expensive for pretty mediocre stats.

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

The hour might be for smaller e-clips like the kind you'd use in a laser wand and then the many-hours for the standard e-clips. I think the Wilks Laser Knife/Sword both use standard e-clips right?

Anyway, how hard would it be to mind-control a Xiticix Digger if you could manage to capture one (hard since they usually flee combat) and get them to make a stockpile of resin weapons to use?

The Wilk's Laser Sword per Merc Ops uses a battery(s) and not an e-clip (good for 15+5d6min).

The Wilk's Laser Knife per New West uses an e-clip (good for 30+1d4x10min), no mention on how they compare to Vibro-Blades in terms of endurance.

In order to control a Xiticix Digger you'd need an appropriate control mechanism/power and one that probably avoids the whole "alien mind" thing.

Resin weapons from wormwood are also mega damage, yeah?

Can't remember it they were mentioned already.

Awwwww...you beat me to it.

There are non-magic crystal MD melee weapons in one of the phase world books. Don't remember the details except that they're strangely expensive for pretty mediocre stats.

--flatline

There is also the Naut'yll material Korallyte (WB7) that is mentioned being used for melee weapons. Magic/Psi energy is needed to shape it however.

[dragonfett]

I seem to remember the 'One hour/240 melees' thing too but I can't for the life of me remember where

I only said that one hour was 240 melees was to give readers a comparison to how long a vibro-blade would last in combat if it was only activated while being used.

The way I would design any vibro-blade is so that there is a "on" button on the hilt so that it only activates while the character is holding it tightly (and stays activated for one second after so that vibro-knives can be thrown and still do MD damage).

[Axelmania]

Is there any indication of the laser sword's battery storing more or less energy than an e-clip?

[RockJock]

Would a Dwarf just know how to forge Kisennite right off the bat? Another option is Black Iron. Just an SDC material, but stronger than regular steel.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's mentioned somewhere (and like the previous poster, I don't know where in the 50+ books it appears) They do run off special eclips that fit in the hilt. There's not a 'duration' listed as it's 'effectively unlimited' as long as you don't just turn it on and let it hum all day and night.

WB10 Juicer Uprising has a vibro-blade spiked armor with a 12hr duration using a stock eclip (vibro-blades use a special eclip IIRC)

The 1hour figure is mentioned in the old FAQ #52 Equipment/Weapons section. If that is pulled from an obscure reference in a book I don't know. Not sure if this reference in Merc Ops helps, but the Vibro-Garrotte (pg108) uses the 1 hour duration figure, not sure if the figure is used previously somewhere else.

But the "REASON" it's stated not to sell well is that the constant laser sword draws alot more power than your normal Vibro blade, and has a duration of 15+5D6 minutes. Where in it sputters out. The inconsistency is the reason given as to why they're not selling as well. Which is frankly a load of poop.

I think there are a several useage reasons the Laser Sword might not do well:
-Impervious to Energy (and other energy modifiers) would make the weapon less useful, IF Vibro-blades energy field is not considered an energy weapon for the spell/ability and is considered a physical
attack, not to mention Laser Resistant materials exist (like the Glitterboy)

Vibroblades are specifically stated to be surrounded by an 'Invisible high frequency energy field' that's 'energy' any way you look at it. The actual 'blade' might cut you (Sdc) but the mdc aspect of it would not (If Impervious to energy was being used)

-It can not be used to parry an incoming attack, this necessitates a second item that can IF one is going to attempt to parry

While in the book (I believe it is.)

It's a light saber, so I've blatantly ignored that from the get go. One of the few house rules in our games.

-the duration of the charge. While I agree that if you are in a melee fight long enough for that to be an issue..., in the long run it can be a potential downside unless you recharge the built-in battery after 15minutes or battle (which ever comes first).

Well it'd be 20. as it's 15+5D6, so absolute minimum you'd get out of it would be 20. Again only an issue if your fights last 80+ melees other wise you reload it. I've had some pretty long combats that have taken hours to resolve in real time, but seldom to they last literally 80 melees long in game time. On average that'd be a minimum of 320 actions to be resolved, just for one person. Unless you're swinging at yourself that means a minimum of 640 action/resolutions. That's going to take a while. and that's if you use your light saber for 640 actions in a row, constantly with it on the entire time.

--Old habits with a vibroblade (or regular blade) might encourage "bad habbit" of leaving it on when you don't need it on so it is always "ready", which could explain the duration downside having such weight.

I don't see either one being left on to be honest. They're MDC melee weapons with either a high frequency MD field around a blade or.. a frigging light saber. You don't just hang out with those things on, if you're not USING them. Maybe, maaaybe if sourly pressed you might use the light saber as a light source if you have to, but barring that it's not like you turn it on and toss it on the coffee table and let her go. You turn those things off the instant you don't need them. Least MDC CUTTER meets SDC... ANYTHING.

Especially if the actual use during the duration doesn't seem to factor into the duration (ie yesterday I sliced up that CS SAMAS wreck with 10 hits and got 30minutes of straight use, but today I didn't smack anything with it and only got 18minutes of straight use, and last week...)

Well ignoring the fact that if you hit 10 times in 30 minutes you're only swinging once per 3 minutes at something, and standing around staring at the sun for the remainder of the time. I get what yo'ure saying.

The varying time frame would be a thing, but no combat trained individual would let it be a thing if they could help it. I.E. you find out what the minimum is, and that's when you stop using it (UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE) You switch off or use other weapons when it hits that time limit (In this case 20+ minutes) Least it sputter out on you mid melee.

If you're using it as a tool. (Which is indicated vibro blades often are so light sabers could be too I guess) the unpredictable time frame might be seen more often. IlE. you DO use it till it sputters out. as you might get an extra 20 minutes out of it. Whoot! that's a full Eclip's worth of recharge right there...

But if you're just using it as a tool to .. cut trees or rocks or something out of your way or make home improvements. it's not going to 'matter' if it sputters out at 20 or 35... Well it would but it's not a life or death situation.

Instead of looking at it as "A battery that's rated for 45 minutes but might crap out after 20"
They would be instead seen as "A battery rated for 20 minutes that sometimes lasts UP TO 45 MINUTES!!!"

Then there might be some "psychological" reasons playing on the Laser Sword's lack of adoption that has nothing to do with the technology itself:

I imagine it had alot to do with "We don't want to get sued by Lucasfilm or whom ever owns the rights to the SW RPG this week.

-The only real market with a comparable product is Techno-Wizardry (Flaming sword, Ice Blade, Lightblade, etc)

Not really. Vibroblades are used all over the world and knocked off all over the world. We know because they cut and paste the paragraph about them in about 5 books with a word or two added here or there. Same market. Lightsabers are just cooler.

-Lack of "tech" market only competition (unlike Vibroblades), only Wilk's produces the item like this in NA, so the lack of competitors "knocking off" might have an impact psychologically

Ehh.. Kinda sorta you can find "laser weapons" in the Aliens books. Wilks is the only book with stats on them in NA. Indeed, but again I think that circles back around to the "Utter terror that palladium has over IP stuff" than anything else.

-the "pure" energy blade might have people thinking its some type of magic weapon (if they encounter it as opposed to in the shop, so if they see it in the shop might pass on it without doing research or even bothering to "try it" if they recover one)

You'd need to be a pretty dumb rube to mistake a light saber for magic, while walking around with $24,000 to spend on a melee weapon.

-the smaller Wilk's Laser Knife (WB14) could be negatively impacting how the weapon is viewed/received as the newer weapon doesn't seem to address the main weakness of the knife (variable duration), though has increased the reach (~x4.5) and potency (~x2).

I get that they have the slow to adopt thing in the entry. I just don't see it as a negative aspect that they play it up to be.

If it runs for 20 minutes, then it runs roughly one third the time of a Vblade and is much stronger. 5D6 vs 2D6.

It's literally 250% stronger per hit, than a Vibro blade Even "giant' vibro swords made for power armor or robot vechiles only do 3D6. (Now some people see the 'giant' vibro swords as great swords. Two handed claymore like things, but still)

I think it would be a simple market application.

"Wilks Lightsabers, two and a half times the cutting power!"
"What's the down side"
"Well with that TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY percent damage out put.. you get one third the battery life"

"TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY PERCENT DAMAGE?"
"Yep"
"I'll buy three and hang them from my belt and just switch off when the battery dies"

"Good choice! I'll wrap them up!"

And lets not forget the psychological aspects of how wicked cool having a light saber, actually IS. Vs every tom dick and OCC that comes with a vibroknife. (Which is most of them isn't it?))

[Pepsi Jedi]

I seem to remember the 'One hour/240 melees' thing too but I can't for the life of me remember where

I only said that one hour was 240 melees was to give readers a comparison to how long a vibro-blade would last in combat if it was only activated while being used.

The way I would design any vibro-blade is so that there is a "on" button on the hilt so that it only activates while the character is holding it tightly (and stays activated for one second after so that vibro-knives can be thrown and still do MD damage).

There's specific notation that vibroblades do not throw well. I noted it when I was looking for duration the other day.

That said. I figure they're like light sabers too. There's a button/trigger/pressurepad you can push/squeese to have it activate. OR there a CLICK on/off slider where you can turn it on, click the thing to that end and it's on. period.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Is there any indication of the laser sword's battery storing more or less energy than an e-clip?

Laser sword entry says that one standard EClip recharges the laser sword in about 10 min.

So the battery takes exactly one standard eclip.

[Axelmania]

If a laser sword lasts 20-45 minutes with a battery and 10 minutes with an e-clip then wouldn't that make the battery work between 2 and 4.5 e-clips?

if you hit 10 times in 30 minutes you're only swinging once per 3 minutes at something, and standing around staring at the sun for the remainder of the time.

1) you could be swinging and get parried or dodged
2) combat might keep getting interrupted by a faster opponent running away from you (perhaps to use their ranged weapons) forcing you to run up to keep using your weapon
3) you might lose your weapon via a disarm attack, at which point it's going to say left on while it's lying on the ground until you can go retrieve it (a 'dead man's switch' on these energy blades would be a nice feature I imagine an operator could possibly build in though, if it's not a default option, would prevent the 'throwing' tactic though, unless you could switch between either mode)
4) you might be losing actions doing dodging, fighting a cyber-knight, getting body-flipped, so you're not necessarily standing around staring...
5) you might be spending attacks to renew defensive spells or block-sacrifice for allies
6) if you were engaged in a ranged pistol duel couldn't you keep the laser knife/sword on to auto-parry energy attacks like how one imagines a cyber-knight might do (except the dumb ones who for some reason use vibro-blades like that, I guess to hide from a CS Grunt that they are a knight...)

The varying time frame would be a thing, but no combat trained individual would let it be a thing if they could help it. I.E. you find out what the minimum is, and that's when you stop using it (UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE) You switch off or use other weapons when it hits that time limit (In this case 20+ minutes) Least it sputter out on you mid melee.

If I had some down time maybe, but I'd probably let it sputter out if I wanted to conserve my other weapons' ammo if my hand weapon could do the job. A recharge is probably going to cost the same whether there's 0 minutes left or 25 minutes left so I may as well push it as far as I can.

Another element is the risk. It's probably a free action to drop the weapon but 1 action to turn it off and a 2nd action to re-holster it.

If I simply dropped it and hadn't used it to its limit, a goblin could come along and grab my dropped laser knife and stab me in the foot with it. By using it up fully I make sure it can't be used against me once I switch to another weapon.

If it runs for 20 minutes, then it runs roughly one third the time of a Vblade and is much stronger. 5D6 vs 2D6.

Where's the bit about a vibro-blade lasting an hour though?

"I'll buy three and hang them from my belt and just switch off when the battery dies"

Come to think of it, yeah, since it's just a handle it's probably lighter than a vibro blade and easier to store in less space when not in use. Probably easier to conceal too. Aren't Wilk's weapons also plastic-based and immune to metal detectors? Couldn't say the same of vibro blades.

If I were Leia Organa and due to costume restrictions had limited places, all with small dimensions, to conceal a MD blade, Wilk's would definitely be the right choice.

We should probably discuss why vibro-blades still get sold:
1) lower cost
2) can parry
3) don't light up (can use without giving away position long range... although the humming noise probably makes them worse for close-range back-stabs)
4) CS ban on Wilk's stuff makes them black market
5) no halving against Glitter Boys
6) no parrying by 'Bend Light' mutants
7) I'm not entirely sure Impervious to Energy works on Vibro-Blades as proposed earlier
Vibro-Axes are super-cheap and a lot of wilderness people will have WP axe from a wood-chopping background and no WP sword because fencing is a rich people thing
9) energy-looking weapons make people think you're a cyber-knight and pester you for help and get targeted by people who cyber-knights have angered

[Pepsi Jedi]

If a laser sword lasts 20-45 minutes with a battery and 10 minutes with an e-clip then wouldn't that make the battery work between 2 and 4.5 e-clips?

No you're reading it wrong.
The Battery holds a charge.
That charge is 20-45 minutes. But 20 is the minimum.
It takes one standard elip to charge an empty laser sword battery.
charging the battery takes 10 minutes. (That's just how long it takes to recharge the thing)

So 1eclip-20-45 min of light saber.

if you hit 10 times in 30 minutes you're only swinging once per 3 minutes at something, and standing around staring at the sun for the remainder of the time.

1) you could be swinging and get parried or dodged

Well I suppose. but minimum trained combatants at lvl 1 get 4 attacks per melee. Even going full tilt to the wall, assuming a lvl 1 combatant, that means you're landing one hit per 48 actions in 3 minutes....

Thats a really really REALLY crummy swordsman and you need a different weapon. lol

2) combat might keep getting interrupted by a faster opponent running away from you (perhaps to use their ranged weapons) forcing you to run up to keep using your weapon.

Turn off your laser sword as you manuver around.

3) you might lose your weapon via a disarm attack, at which point it's going to say left on while it's lying on the ground until you can go retrieve it (a 'dead man's switch' on these energy blades would be a nice feature I imagine an operator could possibly build in though, if it's not a default option, would prevent the 'throwing' tactic though, unless you could switch between either mode)

The laser sword features an automatic deadman's switch. It's actually in the write up an says it can't be thrown. You'd have to modify it TO get it to stay on if you drop it. (Which wouldnt be a difficult modification I wouldn't think, but isn't a standard default. )

4) you might be losing actions doing dodging, fighting a cyber-knight, getting body-flipped, so you're not necessarily standing around staring...

You'er still talking about one hit per three minutes, and 48 actions.

Take a bit. Sit there and look at the clock for 3 minutes straight. Thik about how long that is. lol

Now I know it was just an example. Not really meant to be anything but an example. I was just pointing out that as far as examples go. that one's kinda broken.

5) you might be spending attacks to renew defensive spells or block-sacrifice for allies

Turn it off while doing other things.

6) if you were engaged in a ranged pistol duel couldn't you keep the laser knife/sword on to auto-parry energy attacks like how one imagines a cyber-knight might do (except the dumb ones who for some reason use vibro-blades like that, I guess to hide from a CS Grunt that they are a knight...)

In theory, if you house rule (And I do, have, and always have done) To allow them to parry, then you could use them to parry laser attacks, with the rules to parry such attacks (harder to do, but I don't at 4:18 in the morning remember the penalty)

But even then. Auto parry doesn't take an action (Though I'm not sure I'd let someone auto perry 48 times. There's some sort of limit there, but I can't remember at 4:18 in the morning what it is.

The varying time frame would be a thing, but no combat trained individual would let it be a thing if they could help it. I.E. you find out what the minimum is, and that's when you stop using it (UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE) You switch off or use other weapons when it hits that time limit (In this case 20+ minutes) Least it sputter out on you mid melee.

If I had some down time maybe, but I'd probably let it sputter out if I wanted to conserve my other weapons' ammo if my hand weapon could do the job. A recharge is probably going to cost the same whether there's 0 minutes left or 25 minutes left so I may as well push it as far as I can.

Depends on the situation. Actually waving around a light saber is a pretty dangerous thing to anyone and thing around you. These things do more damage than most plasma cannons, with a simple tap. the heavy weapons in Rifts earth seldom do 5D6md. Just having it on and leaving it on when you don't NEED it on is a pretty dangerous thing. You're not going o use them like glow sticks. (unless you haver absolutely no other choice) If for nothing else, it costs 100s to 1000s to recharge an eclip.

Another element is the risk. It's probably a free action to drop the weapon but 1 action to turn it off and a 2nd action to re-holster it.

Dead man switch. Just stop holding the switch, be it a button. (Lift your finger, after all it doesn't cost an action to lift your finger and let the trigger reset in a rifle. You just take an action to fire.)

And just because you turn it off, doesn't mean you have to holster it. You can keep it in your hand. Now, your GM might charge you an ction to activate it. Sure. But again. these things cost100s to 1000s to recharge.

If I simply dropped it and hadn't used it to its limit, a goblin could come along and grab my dropped laser knife and stab me in the foot with it. By using it up fully I make sure it can't be used against me once I switch to another weapon.

Don't drop your 24,000 light saber around goblins or you deserve to get stabbed with it.

Running it down to total empty on the pretence that you might at some point be disarmed, maybe in the future is a silly common usage.

If you KNOW you're gong to be over run by 500 goblins in 30 minutes and there's no way you could take them all... maybe.. MAYBE I could see using it till it ran out.. just to spite the little frakers, but beyond that. It's silly.

That's like driving your car till it runs out of gas, just to spite a thief that might steal your car and run you over with it.

If it runs for 20 minutes, then it runs roughly one third the time of a Vblade and is much stronger. 5D6 vs 2D6.

Where's the bit about a vibro-blade lasting an hour though?

*Points up*

"I'll buy three and hang them from my belt and just switch off when the battery dies"

Come to think of it, yeah, since it's just a handle it's probably lighter than a vibro blade and easier to store in less space when not in use. Probably easier to conceal too. Aren't Wilk's weapons also plastic-based and immune to metal detectors? Couldn't say the same of vibro blades.

It's a light saber. (and there's a pick in the book) so.. large flashlight sized. where ever you could stick one of those. Yeah. But I don't think the laser swords are plastic. If fdor nothing else you'd think they'd melt or something. But sci fi level weapon detectors wouldn't be looking for 'metal' anyway. And even if the casing isn't metal there's stuff inside that would be. It's sort of like the fear when glocks came out, that they could some how slip through metal detectors but it was just urban legend, there was plenty of metal in them.

If I were Leia Organa and due to costume restrictions had limited places, all with small dimensions, to conceal a MD blade, Wilk's would definitely be the right choice.

We should probably discuss why vibro-blades still get sold:
1) lower cost

Much lower damage too.

2) can parry

Indeed. if your GM doesn't house rule it. (* I've never in decades played with one that didn't, but I understand the 'concept' as to 'why' some might not. Every one I've ever played with simply went 'Yep that's a light saber. You can parry with it" )

3) don't light up (can use without giving away position long range... although the humming noise probably makes them worse for close-range back-stabs)

Now see.. that is a thing. *nods* Hard to be covert swinging a 3 foot long green light saber.

Conversely.. you "Can' use it as a light source if needed. (VERY EXPENSIVE ONE.. but.. if you have no other.) Can't do that with a vibro blade.

4) CS ban on Wilk's stuff makes them black market

It's been a while since I've read the passage, is it on ALL wilks stuff or just wilks firearms? Because Wilks makes other things as well

5) no halving against Glitter Boys

Stabbing a glitter boy has it's own problems. Light saber or not.. namely BOOM!!

6) no parrying by 'Bend Light' mutants

Not really a thing, till you run into that one in a million guy. If your GM does that then he can 'do that' with what ever weapon you happen to be using and make a bad guy specificly to counter that ____ No matter what that _____ is.

Oh? a rale gun? Immune to physical attacks. "Light saber? "Bend light" "Plasma" "Immue to fire and plasma mutant" etc etc etc

7) I'm not entirely sure Impervious to Energy works on Vibro-Blades as proposed earlier

It says it's a high frequency energy field.

Vibro-Axes are super-cheap and a lot of wilderness people will have WP axe from a wood-chopping background and no WP sword because fencing is a rich people thing

Where are you seeing Vibro axes as cheep? (Or indeed in general. I'm sure there are some out there, but they're not standard vibro weapons, or in the standard vibro weapon lists.)

9) energy-looking weapons make people think you're a cyber-knight and pester you for help and get targeted by people who cyber-knights have angered

MD weapons of anysort technically should make you stand out as a 2% on rifts earth. It's just not PRESENTED that way most of the time.

[HWalsh]

Sadly Pepsi, parries aren't a thing for blasts anymore.

Post RUE you can't parry energy blasts, at all. If you use some outdated books you can but it goes off of straight die roll only, no bonuses. You suffer -5 at 11-50 feet and -10 within 10 feet.

Edit:
The game is biased toward blasts really. Melee gets higher bonuses but so do parries. Parries are free dodges aren't. Ranged is, well, ranged and harder to dodge the closer you get. Melee has to close to melee.

[Svartalf]

Would a Dwarf just know how to forge Kisennite right off the bat? Another option is Black Iron. Just an SDC material, but stronger than regular steel.

Kisentite is not a common material, and it needs laser forges just to be worked, so unless you're talking about a Dwarf Forge Master from the UWW or some similarly high tech environment, kisentite is just out of the picture... a Dwarf smith from a low to modern tech environment could LEARN to use the proper equipment to forge kisentite if such equipment and tuition were available, but he would certainly not know such a thing right off the bat.

[Axelmania]

RUE didn't say anything about the rules in the conversion book or GM guide no longer applying.

Thanks for clarifying battery/clip, so the 10 min is like a transfer duration...

Unless you actually drop the weapon to engage the dead-man then wouldn't that mean you have to spend an action turning off the sword (meaning an action you can't run) and then another action to turn it back on (another action you can't run) unless the GM is allowing combination run full speed + other actions?

That wouldn't drain the battery but someone might prefer to keep it on the whole time to save themselves the actions.

1 hit per 3 minutes and 48 actions is plausible if you're facing superior numbers and need to dodge a lot, or if they are very good parriers.

You don't have time to spend an action turning your sword off if you have to block-sacrifice in an emergency. Doing so may also prevent renewing your spell in time. The off/on is 2 actions wasted in combat.

By 'let it sputter out' I mean I'd keep using it when there's a use for it, mainly.

If Wilk's can make laser blasters without any metal I don't see why they couldn't make laser knives the same way.

Not saying to run your car out of gas if you can reload it, just that if it's no safer now to swap out an e-clip then it would be later then I'd run it out before putting the new clip in.

Re-noticed the "old FAQ #52 Equipment/Weapons section" for hour claim. At http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/acew.html although I wouldn't know if they use standard e-clips, mini e-clips, and if a long e-clip might last 2 hours... could use some official writing considering FAQ problems which sometimes happen.

Vibro axes cost 1600 and do better damage than a sword. Just because they weren't in the main book doesn't mean they aren't standard.

[HWalsh]

RUE didn't say anything about the rules in the conversion book or GM guide no longer applying.

Yes, it does, especially if it states that you can't parry energy blasts.

[Axelmania]

That's just a reprint of default rules which the sourcebooks provide options for over-riding. It has to explicitly condemn a book as no longer applying. You could find statements in RUE which are contradicted in RUE.

[ShadowLogan]

Vibroblades are specifically stated to be surrounded by an 'Invisible high frequency energy field' that's 'energy' any way you look at it. The actual 'blade' might cut you (Sdc) but the mdc aspect of it would not (If Impervious to energy was being used)

Yes I know that, but the attack itself might still might qualify as physical. I guess it really depends on if the energy field is doing the damage or is altering the blade itself. In the first case ItE would work, but not in the second case it really wouldn't.

While in the book (I believe it is.)

The inability to parry is in the book for both the Wilk's Laser Sword and Knife as is given is own Note: bullet point in the description and not burried in another text block.

It should be noted that if the blade cannot parry, then the target can't really parry the blade either, just redirect the damage (since a parry in melee is supposed to prevent damage in most cases) to another target area.

Not really. Vibroblades are used all over the world and knocked off all over the world. We know because they cut and paste the paragraph about them in about 5 books with a word or two added here or there. Same market. Lightsabers are just cooler.

Actually no, Vibroblades in design and construction though look like conventional swords (equivalent), be they powered up or down. A Wilk's Laser Sword is closer to several technowizard swords that create their blade on demand. So in terms of market, TW is closer than Vibro-blade on several fronts.

Ehh.. Kinda sorta you can find "laser weapons" in the Aliens books. Wilks is the only book with stats on them in NA. Indeed, but again I think that circles back around to the "Utter terror that palladium has over IP stuff" than anything else.

Their really isn't any any danger of IP stuff at the concept level (energy/laser blade), only at the naming level (so PB is covered) since Energy sword/blades are known to pre-date Star Wars, and are a staple of the Gundam Anime franchise (granted there is the size difference) with their beamsabers (basically lightsabers) since the late 70s and IINM more than a few other anime use them. So all Palladium really has to avoid is the legal IP term, they are safe in terms of concept (especially when you consider how many non-Wilk's energy blades are around that pre-dates Merc Ops).

You'd need to be a pretty dumb rube to mistake a light saber for magic, while walking around with $24,000 to spend on a melee weapon.

Except the text does compare the weapon's predecessor’s (Knife) appearance to a magic/psychic blade "The laser is projected in the visible light spectrum and resembles a magic energy blade or psi-sword" (WB14 pg209), and since the Sword is basically a bigger version of the knife it would be possible, especially if the tech version has poor availability/demand which translates into use. Which means someone encountering it might mistaken it for a TW weapon short of a detailed examination.

I just don't see it as a negative aspect that they play it up to be.

I get that, but Palladium's might just be looking for a quick explanation with the variable time being the most convenient explanation to save space. If the variable duration isn't enough of a reason, then come up with something else to explain the poor demand it isn't likely the only factor, but one that probably can be seen as "justifiable" if you don't put to much thought into the reasoning.

Another aspect is that Vibro-blades are cheaper, and the Wilk's sword is marked down to 24k from 32k and the Knife is 18k, but a Vibro Sword Large is 11k and Vibro-Knife is 7k . Now in terms of damage, there is a bit of proportionality at play for the cost (3 VBKs equal 1 WLK, but cost more, 3 LVBS do a bit extra damage, but come in cheaper than a WLS), but using multiple VBW in place of a single WLW doesn't work at the action level. The cost may not be justifiable for a tech melee weapon (magic/TW is another matter).

Then there is the size of the blades itself, the Laser Sword is fixed at 3ft, and the Knife is at 8inches (as stated no length variance capacity exists). An equivalent-type Vibro-blade could come in varying sizes.

It might also be worth considering the cost of a recharge (yes its an Eclip worth, but if you recharge it more often than a Vibro-blade...), how vibro-blade manufacturers might respond to the new "melee weapon" option to avoid losing customers, not to mention its actual handling/feel compared to a full physical weapon (it might just feel strange), etc.

If a laser sword lasts 20-45 minutes with a battery and 10 minutes with an e-clip then wouldn't that make the battery work between 2 and 4.5 e-clips?

There are several variables here: duration (time), reach (36v8), and damage (66% stronger). The energy transfer is likely not 100% efficient either (meaning some energy the eclip transfers is likely lost). Really is is surprising that the Wilk's Laser Sword has good a duration as it does given it has 4 times the reach and is 2/3 stronger than its predecessor.

[kaid]

If a laser sword lasts 20-45 minutes with a battery and 10 minutes with an e-clip then wouldn't that make the battery work between 2 and 4.5 e-clips?

if you hit 10 times in 30 minutes you're only swinging once per 3 minutes at something, and standing around staring at the sun for the remainder of the time.

1) you could be swinging and get parried or dodged
2) combat might keep getting interrupted by a faster opponent running away from you (perhaps to use their ranged weapons) forcing you to run up to keep using your weapon
3) you might lose your weapon via a disarm attack, at which point it's going to say left on while it's lying on the ground until you can go retrieve it (a 'dead man's switch' on these energy blades would be a nice feature I imagine an operator could possibly build in though, if it's not a default option, would prevent the 'throwing' tactic though, unless you could switch between either mode)
4) you might be losing actions doing dodging, fighting a cyber-knight, getting body-flipped, so you're not necessarily standing around staring...
5) you might be spending attacks to renew defensive spells or block-sacrifice for allies
6) if you were engaged in a ranged pistol duel couldn't you keep the laser knife/sword on to auto-parry energy attacks like how one imagines a cyber-knight might do (except the dumb ones who for some reason use vibro-blades like that, I guess to hide from a CS Grunt that they are a knight...)

The varying time frame would be a thing, but no combat trained individual would let it be a thing if they could help it. I.E. you find out what the minimum is, and that's when you stop using it (UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE) You switch off or use other weapons when it hits that time limit (In this case 20+ minutes) Least it sputter out on you mid melee.

If I had some down time maybe, but I'd probably let it sputter out if I wanted to conserve my other weapons' ammo if my hand weapon could do the job. A recharge is probably going to cost the same whether there's 0 minutes left or 25 minutes left so I may as well push it as far as I can.

Another element is the risk. It's probably a free action to drop the weapon but 1 action to turn it off and a 2nd action to re-holster it.

If I simply dropped it and hadn't used it to its limit, a goblin could come along and grab my dropped laser knife and stab me in the foot with it. By using it up fully I make sure it can't be used against me once I switch to another weapon.

If it runs for 20 minutes, then it runs roughly one third the time of a Vblade and is much stronger. 5D6 vs 2D6.

Where's the bit about a vibro-blade lasting an hour though?

"I'll buy three and hang them from my belt and just switch off when the battery dies"

Come to think of it, yeah, since it's just a handle it's probably lighter than a vibro blade and easier to store in less space when not in use. Probably easier to conceal too. Aren't Wilk's weapons also plastic-based and immune to metal detectors? Couldn't say the same of vibro blades.

If I were Leia Organa and due to costume restrictions had limited places, all with small dimensions, to conceal a MD blade, Wilk's would definitely be the right choice.

We should probably discuss why vibro-blades still get sold:
1) lower cost
2) can parry
3) don't light up (can use without giving away position long range... although the humming noise probably makes them worse for close-range back-stabs)
4) CS ban on Wilk's stuff makes them black market
5) no halving against Glitter Boys
6) no parrying by 'Bend Light' mutants
7) I'm not entirely sure Impervious to Energy works on Vibro-Blades as proposed earlier
Vibro-Axes are super-cheap and a lot of wilderness people will have WP axe from a wood-chopping background and no WP sword because fencing is a rich people thing
9) energy-looking weapons make people think you're a cyber-knight and pester you for help and get targeted by people who cyber-knights have angered

Having cut many a trees in my day having a vibro axe would have been amazing. I imagine you have to do some rigging so it does not just swing through the tree in one shot but dang that would make it fast and easy to do the basic rough cutting and delimbing hell you could probably just walk around and shave it like you would a beard.

[dragonfett]

PepsiJedi, in the game that I am in currently, my Wolfen Ley Line Walker has both the Talisman spell and Lightblade spell, and has paid a group of Dwarven Smiths to produce a bulk order of copper rods of varying lengths (so that larger races can hold them safely) that appear very similar to Lightsaber hilts from Star Wars, then using Talisman, he put Lightblade on each of them, creating a "Disposable Lightsaber".

And to everyone who is claiming that Vibro-Blades don't damage someone protected by Impervious to Energy because Vibro-Blades deal damage through a "high frequency ENERGY, I guess that makes the person protected by Impervious to Energy immune to damage from a rail gun as well as the rounds from it deal damage from... kinetic ENERGY!!!

Sorry, but I felt that I had to make that point...

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thanks for clarifying battery/clip, so the 10 min is like a transfer duration...

Yeah, A recharge time.

Unless you actually drop the weapon to engage the dead-man then wouldn't that mean you have to spend an action turning off the sword (meaning an action you can't run) and then another action to turn it back on (another action you can't run) unless the GM is allowing combination run full speed + other actions?

No. No more than 'releasing a trigger after you've pulled it' doesn't take an action. You can pull the trigger as many times as you have actions in a melee round. It's not one action to pull the trigger then your second action to let the trigger go and reset and a third action to pull the trigger again and fourth action to let it go and reset.

The trigger/deadman switch would be much the same way. You can 'release' it like you release a trigger, with out dropping it or using an action.

My XDM pistol has a safty built into the grip that's depressed when I grip the gun firmly but if I relax the pressure it comes back and enguages.

yes, some GMs might make you spend an action to turn it back on. Some would let you do that while running with out cost. Either way is viable.

That wouldn't drain the battery but someone might prefer to keep it on the whole time to save themselves the actions.

1 hit per 3 minutes and 48 actions is plausible if you're facing superior numbers and need to dodge a lot, or if they are very good parriers.

If you're only hitting once per 48 actions you need to get OUT of that fight. lol

You don't have time to spend an action turning your sword off if you have to block-sacrifice in an emergency. Doing so may also prevent renewing your spell in time. The off/on is 2 actions wasted in combat.

It's really not. At best it'd be 1 action to turn it back on.

In that case you weight it. Stand around wasiting your batteries, or turn it on when you're going to use it. It's a choice. It would likely depend on just how draconian your GM is about keeping track of the battery life of your lightsaber. many GM's aren't going to care. Those that do.. might care very very very much and literally make you keep track down to the melee (15 second block) I've seen both kinds.

I don't generally play with the second that much. I'm playing a game. Not mathing against another person. While it's perfectly viable to indeed keep track of every 15 second instance of usage of your battery. It's going to be annoying.

By 'let it sputter out' I mean I'd keep using it when there's a use for it, mainly.

That's not really what was said though. It was said to drain it so noone else could pick it up and use it against you.

If Wilk's can make laser blasters without any metal I don't see why they couldn't make laser knives the same way.

Do they though? I'm honestly asking. I can't even remember 100% of the details on real life guns as there's tens of thousands of different kinds. Does it SAY in the books that the guns are ALL 100% plastic and 0% metal? (It might but I don't know that it does. I'd like a cited page) Or do they have plastic casings and stuff and metal innards. (Like a glock or composit pistol. A XDM, a Sig P320, etc)

Not saying to run your car out of gas if you can reload it, just that if it's no safer now to swap out an e-clip then it would be later then I'd run it out before putting the new clip in.

The concept doesn't click for me. What's the point?

Re-noticed the "old FAQ #52 Equipment/Weapons section" for hour claim. At http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/acew.html although I wouldn't know if they use standard e-clips, mini e-clips, and if a long e-clip might last 2 hours... could use some official writing considering FAQ problems which sometimes happen.

Well looking at the art, standard and log eclips wouldn't fit into the vibroblade's grip. So I'm going to go with 'mini'.

I know it wass mentioned before (The FAQ) but the linkl provided was nice. There's our answer.

Vibro axes cost 1600 and do better damage than a sword. Just because they weren't in the main book doesn't mean they aren't standard.

Im askking where you saw that. What book it was in and the page. I like to look for myself.

Soooo many years of people on forums telling me book X says Y and when I open it up... more often than not it says something different or a lot of stuff in additon to Y, that the person left out.

i'm NOT accusing you of such. I'm just asking where it is so I can check myself. If you know the cost to the credits I'm guessing you looked it up. I'd like to see it too, please.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Vibroblades are specifically stated to be surrounded by an 'Invisible high frequency energy field' that's 'energy' any way you look at it. The actual 'blade' might cut you (Sdc) but the mdc aspect of it would not (If Impervious to energy was being used)

Yes I know that, but the attack itself might still might qualify as physical. I guess it really depends on if the energy field is doing the damage or is altering the blade itself. In the first case ItE would work, but not in the second case it really wouldn't.

I get what you're saying, but it's clear that the energy field is what's doing the mega damage.

While in the book (I believe it is.)

The inability to parry is in the book for both the Wilk's Laser Sword and Knife as is given is own Note: bullet point in the description and not burried in another text block.

Oh yeah. I know. I just have never agreed with it, and never in decades of play had a gm enforce it. I accknowlege there's soem out there that might. I just don't.

It should be noted that if the blade cannot parry, then the target can't really parry the blade either, just redirect the damage (since a parry in melee is supposed to prevent damage in most cases) to another target area.

Pretty much. It's not so much a parry but a 'here hurt THIS instead!" sort of move. great if it's your head about to get hit and you block with your gun and your gun takes the 5D6 damage.

Not so great if it's swinging at your car and you block with you arm or something.

Not really. Vibroblades are used all over the world and knocked off all over the world. We know because they cut and paste the paragraph about them in about 5 books with a word or two added here or there. Same market. Lightsabers are just cooler.

Actually no, Vibroblades in design and construction though look like conventional swords (equivalent), be they powered up or down. A Wilk's Laser Sword is closer to several technowizard swords that create their blade on demand. So in terms of market, TW is closer than Vibro-blade on several fronts.

That's like saying a plasma rifle spitting out a gob of plasma is closer to a mage casting a fireball than it is to a technological weapon. That doesn't fly.

Ehh.. Kinda sorta you can find "laser weapons" in the Aliens books. Wilks is the only book with stats on them in NA. Indeed, but again I think that circles back around to the "Utter terror that palladium has over IP stuff" than anything else.

Their really isn't any any danger of IP stuff at the concept level (energy/laser blade),

Palladium has their own views of IP laws, which are.... I'll just leave it at "Their own views". Extreme is one word for it but doesn't seem to really encompas it...

only at the naming level (so PB is covered)

Ohhh. I'm sure a multi million dollar entity could claim the concept itself, should they be pressed. It's more than just a name.

since Energy sword/blades are known to pre-date Star Wars, and are a staple of the Gundam Anime franchise (granted there is the size difference) with their beamsabers (basically lightsabers) since the late 70s and IINM more than a few other anime use them. So all Palladium really has to avoid is the legal IP term, they are safe in terms of concept (especially when you consider how many non-Wilk's energy blades are around that pre-dates Merc Ops).

Again. Not trying to start a thing, but Palladiums ideas on IP's don't really match with most other people's views on IP's.

You'd need to be a pretty dumb rube to mistake a light saber for magic, while walking around with $24,000 to spend on a melee weapon.

Except the text does compare the weapon's predecessor’s (Knife) appearance to a magic/psychic blade "The laser is projected in the visible light spectrum and resembles a magic energy blade or psi-sword" (WB14 pg209), and since the Sword is basically a bigger version of the knife it would be possible, especially if the tech version has poor availability/demand which translates into use. Which means someone encountering it might mistaken it for a TW weapon short of a detailed examination.

I disagree. If I see someone pull out a light saber hilt and turn it on and a light saber blade comes out. I'm going to go "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A LIGHT SABER!!!" not "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A MAGICAL SWORD!"

If they pull out some clearly antique hilt and flick it and a light saber blade comes out. I'm still going to go "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A LIGHT SABER THAT LOOKS LIKE AN ANTIQUE SWORD HIT!" not "LOOK MAGICAL BLADE OF MAGICAL LIGHT"

Why? because I live in a modern technical society. lol. rifts earth is even more so. (Well in part)

Now if you're some rube living in a grass hutt, using an out house and don't know modern tech. Sure you might mistake it. But by and large those arne't our PCs Or even really the NPC's you interact with much.

I just don't see it as a negative aspect that they play it up to be.

I get that, but Palladium's might just be looking for a quick explanation with the variable time being the most convenient explanation to save space.

I agree. And Palladium math is seldom their strong suit.

If the variable duration isn't enough of a reason, then come up with something else to explain the poor demand it isn't likely the only factor, but one that probably can be seen as "justifiable" if you don't put to much thought into the reasoning.

I go even easier. I ignore it. The weapon is one weapon in one book, out of 50+ blooks with 100s of other weapons. It's my "signature' piece for MANY if not the VAST Majority of my chars.. but that's me. Most people either don't know about it, or don't use it. No skin off my nose. I know about it and use it extensivly. Not because of the killer damage (and it has killer damage) But because of Style.

I'd use it if it where half the damage of a vibro blade.

I'm just lucky that it does two and a half times as much.

I'm not kidding my char's will often have two or three of them. Just incase one runs out in combat (Which has NEVER happened. My chars' switch out far before it would be come a problme. Not that fights actually last that long anyway)

The end result is the same. Vibroblades are listed in 10+ books. The light saber 1.

So.. in effect it is kinda rare.

Another aspect is that Vibro-blades are cheaper, and the Wilk's sword is marked down to 24k from 32k and the Knife is 18k, but a Vibro Sword Large is 11k and Vibro-Knife is 7k . Now in terms of damage, there is a bit of proportionality at play for the cost (3 VBKs equal 1 WLK, but cost more, 3 LVBS do a bit extra damage, but come in cheaper than a WLS), but using multiple VBW in place of a single WLW doesn't work at the action level. The cost may not be justifiable for a tech melee weapon (magic/TW is another matter).

The cost is some what a thing. They're roughly twice the price of the vibro sword. (Not three times, as .. well via canon they ARE marked down)

You're paying 'twice as much' but getting 250% of damage, so it's still a deal, and as you said, mechallically it turns out better for the Light saber.

If you're poor-ish, and can't buy one, yeah.. grab a Vb... me? I'll save my money and get my Lightsaber. ---every time---. I'll fight with sharp sticks and pointy rocks to skimp till I can afford one.

Then there is the size of the blades itself, the Laser Sword is fixed at 3ft, and the Knife is at 8inches (as stated no length variance capacity exists). An equivalent-type Vibro-blade could come in varying sizes.

Eh. I'm used to hand and a half sized blades. Fits me just fine.

if you need varying sizes, the alien books have energy weapons that are generic enough to allow varying lengths.

It might also be worth considering the cost of a recharge (yes its an Eclip worth, but if you recharge it more often than a Vibro-blade...), how vibro-blade manufacturers might respond to the new "melee weapon" option to avoid losing customers, not to mention its actual handling/feel compared to a full physical weapon (it might just feel strange), etc.

Yep. Costs more to feed her. But you get so much more out.

Sort of like.... a Lambo and a Yugo are both cars. they both drive you from A to B.. but the Lambo costs alot more.... but she gets you there alot faster and with much more style. lol

If a laser sword lasts 20-45 minutes with a battery and 10 minutes with an e-clip then wouldn't that make the battery work between 2 and 4.5 e-clips?

There are several variables here: duration (time), reach (36v8), and damage (66% stronger). The energy transfer is likely not 100% efficient either (meaning some energy the eclip transfers is likely lost). Really is is surprising that the Wilk's Laser Sword has good a duration as it does given it has 4 times the reach and is 2/3 stronger than its predecessor.

Yes indeed!

[Pepsi Jedi]

PepsiJedi, in the game that I am in currently, my Wolfen Ley Line Walker has both the Talisman spell and Lightblade spell, and has paid a group of Dwarven Smiths to produce a bulk order of copper rods of varying lengths (so that larger races can hold them safely) that appear very similar to Lightsaber hilts from Star Wars, then using Talisman, he put Lightblade on each of them, creating a "Disposable Lightsaber".

And to everyone who is claiming that Vibro-Blades don't damage someone protected by Impervious to Energy because Vibro-Blades deal damage through a "high frequency ENERGY, I guess that makes the person protected by Impervious to Energy immune to damage from a rail gun as well as the rounds from it deal damage from... kinetic ENERGY!!!

Sorry, but I felt that I had to make that point...

I'm not going to really touch on the breaking of the system using the talisman spell and what not. yes. I've seen it's like before. No it wouldn't actually work out in the game -setting- like that, but that's a big arguement I don't really feel like rehashing. It's been done and that one's not really fun. (like some of the others we rehash on a regular basis. lol)

The fact that you can do something with magic, doesn't make a clearly technological item look like it's magic.

If you have a TK Blaster pistol that shoots a fire ball. That's fine.

Someone seeing a pistol that looks like a plasma rifle, shooting a plasma bolt, doesn't instantly ignore that htey know what a plasma rifle is, know it shoots plasma, and then suddenly just goes "OH THAT MUST BE A MAGICAL FIREBALL THROWING WEAPON!" They're going to go "Whoa that's a plasma rifle"

[Axelmania]

If you're only hitting once per 48 actions you need to get OUT of that fight. lol

We should also keep in mind these were introduced when people usually had 2 actions per melee instead of 4 which made the duration more significant.

Also not everyone can get out of fights they need to get out of right away

I got confused about how we got on this line of discussion and had to scroll up where ShadowLogan mentioned getting 30 minutes of use and hit a SAMAS 10 times. But he also mentions getting 18 minutes of use while not smacking anything. So maybe SL was using it as a light source because a Flooper ate his flashlight?

Do they though? I'm honestly asking. I can't even remember 100% of the details on real life guns as there's tens of thousands of different kinds. Does it SAY in the books that the guns are ALL 100% plastic and 0% metal? (It might but I don't know that it does. I'd like a cited page) Or do they have plastic casings and stuff and metal innards. (Like a glock or composit pistol. A XDM, a Sig P320, etc)

I can't even remember which book had it (Black Market maybe? Juicer Uprisings?) but whichever mentioned a CS ban on Wilk's related to passing through metal detectors. I don't think that would ban everything like their communications, just weapons, but weapons may include their short-range laser weapons in addition to their long-range ones. I'm sure someone will remember.

The concept doesn't click for me. What's the point?

If it's a static fee to recharge e-clips (rather than GM's offering discounts based on how much juice is left... and that gets very tricky when you're talking about variable minutes you roll for) then you should get your money's worth by using it up completely before paying.

I can see swapping in a full e-clip for dangerous situations (like against opponents who can hit you with MD so if you lose actions, that's potential damage youtake) and using your almost-expired e-clip in your sword for less dangerous situations (like against MDC opponents who can't hit back with MD, breaking down a wall, sabotaging an unguarded bot)

Well looking at the art, standard and log eclips wouldn't fit into the vibroblade's grip. So I'm going to go with 'mini'.

I'm not sure about that, the size of e-clips tends to fluctuate a bit in artwork. For many pistols where e-clips fit in the handle, the handle could be about as narrow as a vibro-clip handle I think.

Im askking where you saw that. What book it was in and the page. I like to look for myself.

Vibro-Axe and Vibro-Spear are in the equipment section of Spirit West along with the Laser Bow. I don't know if that was the first place they were introduced.

They wouldn't be standard CS issue equipment which is why they weren't in RMB, but I figure the low cost for the higher damage means that they are cheaper to make... or maybe vibro knives/swords are more expensive because they're stolen from the CS?

If I were equipping a bunch of skeletons I'd definitely do it with one of these. Spear is a bit costlier but does more average/max damage (plus if GMs use range in any capacity that should help) so it could be worth the investment over an axe.

I believe this is a 1-handed axe since it says Axe/Tomahawk and Tomahawks are 1-handed weapons.

I disagree. If I see someone pull out a light saber hilt and turn it on and a light saber blade comes out. I'm going to go "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A LIGHT SABER!!!" not "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A MAGICAL SWORD!"

If they pull out some clearly antique hilt and flick it and a light saber blade comes out. I'm still going to go "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A LIGHT SABER THAT LOOKS LIKE AN ANTIQUE SWORD HIT!" not "LOOK MAGICAL BLADE OF MAGICAL LIGHT"

Why? because I live in a modern technical society. lol. rifts earth is even more so. (Well in part)

Now if you're some rube living in a grass hutt, using an out house and don't know modern tech. Sure you might mistake it. But by and large those arne't our PCs Or even really the NPC's you interact with much.

Rifts may be more modern for SOME (actually probably more rural than ours for most) but in spite of the higher tech existing, I think a smaller segment of the population would have access to pre-Rifts things like Gundam or Star Wars to inspire this reaction.

This is more a question of availability, if more people are walking around with TW Light Blades or Wilks Laser Swords. As expensive as the Wilk's laser blades are, TW stuff tends to be even more expensive (and fewer people can use it) so for that reason alone people might be more familiar with that incarnation...

There might be more cyber-knights than people with 24k swords though.

[ShadowLogan]

Oh yeah. I know. I just have never agreed with it, and never in decades of play had a gm enforce it. I accknowlege there's soem out there that might. I just don't

The inability to parry though makes sense though, nothing in the text for either the WLS or WLK indicate there is a solid physical component ("hardlight"), just a normal laser.

Now if the text note wasn't present, yes I would say it would be GM call if pure "energy blades" can parry (I'd probably allow it), but this is a set of cases that specifically call it out as not being possible without a house rule.

That's like saying a plasma rifle spitting out a gob of plasma is closer to a mage casting a fireball than it is to a technological weapon. That doesn't fly.

I have to disagree here. Other than the power source, a Technowizard weapon has common elements with normal technology. I'm not looking at raw magic/psionic, but in a techno-wizard (or psi-tech) device.

There are very few technology examples of an energy blade in Rifts AFAIK (the Naruni have 2 in Mercenaries, and maybe another in Wave 2), but aside from these two Wilk's examples I'm at loss for other examples that don't involve magic or psionics (Amaki TW Psi-Sword, several TW swords, Rune-items) on some level or involve some material for a physical blade (SA2's Tri-Beam sword has wires, Phase Swords have a solid blade they interact with, Kittani-style plasma weapons have a blade/physical form they envelop, etc).

Ohhh. I'm sure a multi million dollar entity could claim the concept itself, should they be pressed. It's more than just a name.

They could try of course, but it probably would be something they would lose given various examples that have been around pre-dating Star Wars and that have come out after with no action on their part. So concept would seem to be something PB can work with. Now PB might be overly cautious, which is their right, but the fact is they have created 8+ (IINM for Rifts) energy blade concept weapons of varying types (most swords, an axe and a knife) and not provoked an IP dispute based on concept/depiction AFAIK.

I disagree. If I see someone pull out a light saber hilt and turn it on and a light saber blade comes out. I'm going to go "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A LIGHT SABER!!!" not "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A MAGICAL SWORD!"

In terms of Meta-gaming yes, but in game the characters involved are not likely to know anything about Star Wars. And in game, the majority of pure energy blade melee weapons for personal use (not PA or giant robot) ARE Techno-Magical in nature, so IN GAME it is perfectly understandable for a character to think it would be one of those fancy "techno-wizard gizmos" and not a pure technology blade (as the only other 2 are not intended for unaugmented humans).

The end result is the same. Vibroblades are listed in 10+ books. The light saber 1.

22 Rifts Books that I'm familiar with, and that doesn't count most of the newer books (like BM, Lumeria, NG1&2, MIF, etc) and books my group doesn't have, where a vibro-weapon of some kind appears and isn't a C&P from the main book(s).

The "light saber" concept though appears in several places, not just 1. The Amaki TW-Psi-Blade (SA2), RUE has 2 (one from RMB, 1 from Arzno IINM), Book of Magic offers up 1 more not mentioned yet (labled as New), Atlantis (WB2/BoM) has another Bio-Wizard weapon that is one effectively. There is also the Naruni PA from Mercenaries (though IIRC the weapon can't function unless hooked up to the PA, the previously mentioned 'bot is an Axe).

You're paying 'twice as much' but getting 250% of damage, so it's still a deal, and as you said, mechallically it turns out better for the Light saber.

You might be getting x2.5 the damage, but that seems to be the only benefit and there are downsides associated with it:
-it is a non-defensive option weapon (no parry)
-higher operating costs (recharging since you have to do it more often)
-possibility for misidentification/perception (as a TW user, which means either mage or psychic and the negative notions some might have with individuals of that type)
-reliability for energy duration (sure there are strategies to minimize it one can take, but those same strategies can work even better with something that has a more reliable duration)

[tsh77769]

BACK ON TOPIC!!

Can we get some discussion WITH SOURCES, of special materials (the thread DrewKitty linked fails to mention source) like the Black Iron someone mentioned.

Thanks.

[eliakon]

Just a point here...
But to be honest most people are not going to know about TW energy blades either...
I mean unless they themselves have a TW weapon, or have personally encountered them.
Just because they are in the rule book doesn't mean that everyone knows what they are. (There is a reason that the Lore: Magic skill exists after all). I know that there is this habit of just assuming that everyone knows everything...
But most people on Rifts Earth wont know what an energy sword is, of any type. In fact to be brutally honest outside of the various kingdoms of magic the Wilks energy sword is going to be MORE commonly known since Wilks advertises, sells its energy sword and energy knife, etc...
It may be less common as PC gear, but that is not the world.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If you're only hitting once per 48 actions you need to get OUT of that fight. lol

We should also keep in mind these were introduced when people usually had 2 actions per melee instead of 4 which made the duration more significant.

I'm reaching back literal decades here but pretty sure by the time Rifts rolled around the 2 action default was already gone. It 'died' with N&SS 1st being the last, wasn't it?

Also not everyone can get out of fights they need to get out of right away

While true, the comment remains. If you're only hitting offensivly once per 48 actions you're severly outclassed and need to get out of that fight.

I got confused about how we got on this line of discussion and had to scroll up where ShadowLogan mentioned getting 30 minutes of use and hit a SAMAS 10 times. But he also mentions getting 18 minutes of use while not smacking anything. So maybe SL was using it as a light source because a Flooper ate his flashlight?

Maybe so.

Do they though? I'm honestly asking. I can't even remember 100% of the details on real life guns as there's tens of thousands of different kinds. Does it SAY in the books that the guns are ALL 100% plastic and 0% metal? (It might but I don't know that it does. I'd like a cited page) Or do they have plastic casings and stuff and metal innards. (Like a glock or composit pistol. A XDM, a Sig P320, etc)

I can't even remember which book had it (Black Market maybe? Juicer Uprisings?) but whichever mentioned a CS ban on Wilk's related to passing through metal detectors. I don't think that would ban everything like their communications, just weapons, but weapons may include their short-range laser weapons in addition to their long-range ones. I'm sure someone will remember.

I remember the ban on Wilks lasers, but if memory serves it was more a nod to their buddies at NG than anything Wilks did themselves. lol I think it's actually found in a very small comment in Naurni Wave 2

The concept doesn't click for me. What's the point?

If it's a static fee to recharge e-clips (rather than GM's offering discounts based on how much juice is left... and that gets very tricky when you're talking about variable minutes you roll for) then you should get your money's worth by using it up completely before paying.

I can see swapping in a full e-clip for dangerous situations (like against opponents who can hit you with MD so if you lose actions, that's potential damage youtake) and using your almost-expired e-clip in your sword for less dangerous situations (like against MDC opponents who can't hit back with MD, breaking down a wall, sabotaging an unguarded bot)

Ehhh sure.. if you NEED A weapon that can do 5D6 MD and there's no possible way for you to take damage and you're safe, then sure, let the battery run out, but that's not a combat situation. If you're using your light saber to clear trees, by all means let it peter out on it's own.

Well looking at the art, standard and log eclips wouldn't fit into the vibroblade's grip. So I'm going to go with 'mini'.

I'm not sure about that, the size of e-clips tends to fluctuate a bit in artwork. For many pistols where e-clips fit in the handle, the handle could be about as narrow as a vibro-clip handle I think.

Eh... art is indeed variable, but by and large the eclips are the size of gun magazines and for the most part, those wouldn't fit in a sword hilt.

Im askking where you saw that. What book it was in and the page. I like to look for myself.

Vibro-Axe and Vibro-Spear are in the equipment section of Spirit West along with the Laser Bow. I don't know if that was the first place they were introduced.

They wouldn't be standard CS issue equipment which is why they weren't in RMB, but I figure the low cost for the higher damage means that they are cheaper to make... or maybe vibro knives/swords are more expensive because they're stolen from the CS?

I looked. The axe doesn't have higher damage than a Vibrosword. The axe does 1D6+3, a Vibro sword does 2D6.
They are cheeper, but looking at the other stuff in the section all the weapons look cheeper. Looks more like an inconsistency on weapon prices than anything else. Either way the axe isn't stronger than the sword. ( at least that one. Ripper ones probably are)

If I were equipping a bunch of skeletons I'd definitely do it with one of these. Spear is a bit costlier but does more average/max damage (plus if GMs use range in any capacity that should help) so it could be worth the investment over an axe.

Well to be fair, the Spear does.... two points more damage than the sword. Sword does 2D6, the spear does 2D6+2

I believe this is a 1-handed axe since it says Axe/Tomahawk and Tomahawks are 1-handed weapons.

I disagree. If I see someone pull out a light saber hilt and turn it on and a light saber blade comes out. I'm going to go "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A LIGHT SABER!!!" not "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A MAGICAL SWORD!"

If they pull out some clearly antique hilt and flick it and a light saber blade comes out. I'm still going to go "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A LIGHT SABER THAT LOOKS LIKE AN ANTIQUE SWORD HIT!" not "LOOK MAGICAL BLADE OF MAGICAL LIGHT"

Why? because I live in a modern technical society. lol. rifts earth is even more so. (Well in part)

Now if you're some rube living in a grass hutt, using an out house and don't know modern tech. Sure you might mistake it. But by and large those arne't our PCs Or even really the NPC's you interact with much.

Rifts may be more modern for SOME (actually probably more rural than ours for most) but in spite of the higher tech existing, I think a smaller segment of the population would have access to pre-Rifts things like Gundam or Star Wars to inspire this reaction.

They don't need to, they have access or knowlege of "real" MD weaponry

This is more a question of availability, if more people are walking around with TW Light Blades or Wilks Laser Swords. As expensive as the Wilk's laser blades are, TW stuff tends to be even more expensive (and fewer people can use it) so for that reason alone people might be more familiar with that incarnation...

There might be more cyber-knights than people with 24k swords though.

Yeah , as you said though. Magic is rare too. And when people see a tech item, they're going to think tech explination vs magical one.

Someone raised in Lazlo might have a 50/50 reaction but people out side of a purely magical society likely would think it was tech.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Oh yeah. I know. I just have never agreed with it, and never in decades of play had a gm enforce it. I accknowlege there's soem out there that might. I just don't

The inability to parry though makes sense though, nothing in the text for either the WLS or WLK indicate there is a solid physical component ("hardlight"), just a normal laser.

Now if the text note wasn't present, yes I would say it would be GM call if pure "energy blades" can parry (I'd probably allow it), but this is a set of cases that specifically call it out as not being possible without a house rule.

Oh it's totally a house rule. Thing is every 'house' I've been in went 'Cool a light saber' and threw out that note. They're clearly meant to be light sabers so we give them the qualities of them.

That's like saying a plasma rifle spitting out a gob of plasma is closer to a mage casting a fireball than it is to a technological weapon. That doesn't fly.

I have to disagree here. Other than the power source, a Technowizard weapon has common elements with normal technology. I'm not looking at raw magic/psionic, but in a techno-wizard (or psi-tech) device.

But that strengthens my point. You don't instantly think "magic' when you see a tech device do something that technology can do. And technowizard stuff is written to look extreamly like technowizard stuff. with jewels nad gems and wires and crap all over it.

There are very few technology examples of an energy blade in Rifts AFAIK (the Naruni have 2 in Mercenaries, and maybe another in Wave 2), but aside from these two Wilk's examples I'm at loss for other examples that don't involve magic or psionics (Amaki TW Psi-Sword, several TW swords, Rune-items) on some level or involve some material for a physical blade (SA2's Tri-Beam sword has wires, Phase Swords have a solid blade they interact with, Kittani-style plasma weapons have a blade/physical form they envelop, etc).

There's all sorts of energy blades in the alien book. Swords axes etc.

Ohhh. I'm sure a multi million dollar entity could claim the concept itself, should they be pressed. It's more than just a name.

They could try of course, but it probably would be something they would lose given various examples that have been around pre-dating Star Wars and that have come out after with no action on their part. So concept would seem to be something PB can work with. Now PB might be overly cautious, which is their right, but the fact is they have created 8+ (IINM for Rifts) energy blade concept weapons of varying types (most swords, an axe and a knife) and not provoked an IP dispute based on concept/depiction AFAIK.

"Overly cautious" would be a very polite way to put it.

I disagree. If I see someone pull out a light saber hilt and turn it on and a light saber blade comes out. I'm going to go "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A LIGHT SABER!!!" not "HOLY CRAP THEY HAVE A MAGICAL SWORD!"

In terms of Meta-gaming yes, but in game the characters involved are not likely to know anything about Star Wars. And in game, the majority of pure energy blade melee weapons for personal use (not PA or giant robot) ARE Techno-Magical in nature, so IN GAME it is perfectly understandable for a character to think it would be one of those fancy "techno-wizard gizmos" and not a pure technology blade (as the only other 2 are not intended for unaugmented humans).

I don't except the given. Where are the huge long lists of all these magical swords with energy blades?

The end result is the same. Vibroblades are listed in 10+ books. The light saber 1.

22 Rifts Books that I'm familiar with, and that doesn't count most of the newer books (like BM, Lumeria, NG1&2, MIF, etc) and books my group doesn't have, where a vibro-weapon of some kind appears and isn't a C&P from the main book(s).

Then that would be more than ten yes?

The "light saber" concept though appears in several places, not just 1. The Amaki TW-Psi-Blade (SA2), RUE has 2 (one from RMB, 1 from Arzno IINM), Book of Magic offers up 1 more not mentioned yet (labled as New), Atlantis (WB2/BoM) has another Bio-Wizard weapon that is one effectively. There is also the Naruni PA from Mercenaries (though IIRC the weapon can't function unless hooked up to the PA, the previously mentioned 'bot is an Axe).

You're paying 'twice as much' but getting 250% of damage, so it's still a deal, and as you said, mechallically it turns out better for the Light saber.

You might be getting x2.5 the damage, but that seems to be the only benefit and there are downsides associated with it:

When you're trying to kill something with a mega damage weapon at melee range, having 250% weapon damage is a BIG BENEFIT.

-it is a non-defensive option weapon (no parry)

As written yes. As played, in my decades of play. Never once. Before 2005 I used energy blades (Generic) and since 2005, this one. Never once in all that time has any GM ever enforced that. Yes. I fully acknowlege that's how it's written. I've just never seen a game that did NOT house rule that one.

-higher operating costs (recharging since you have to do it more often)

Minimally..... remember the 250% damage. It has (MAYBE) 3 times the cost to recharge (Depends on if you roll the dice and run out the battery or switch at the 20 min mark). So in the long run.... a bit higher operating cost.

-possibility for misidentification/perception (as a TW user, which means either mage or psychic and the negative notions some might have with individuals of that type)

I simply don't buy that at all. If people are so podunk rual that they think your light saber is magical, then the negative assioations aren't really going to roll into play in a dramatic way.

Dirt farmers in the wilderness thinking your technolightsaber is magic and being scared about it, isn't what's going to ruin your day for the most part

-reliability for energy duration (sure there are strategies to minimize it one can take, but those same strategies can work even better with something that has a more reliable duration)

Ehh. It has a reliable duration. of 20 minutes.

like I said you wouldn't use it as 45 minutes but maybe this POS konks out after 20!! what a cheep peice of crap!!"

You treat it as "This awesome sword does two and a half times as much damage as a vibro blade for 20 minutes!! With the possibility of the battery more than DOUBLING That time frame to 45!!"

[HWalsh]

I don't except the given. Where are the huge long lists of all these magical swords with energy blades?

The Sword of Light (Slayers)
As well as the other "Weapons of Light" (Slayers)
(These weapons even make the sound)

The Lighthawk Sword (Tenchi Muyo)

Energy Sword (Lyrical Nanoha)

Pearl and Nash (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

Brilliant Energy Weapon (Pathfinder, Dungeons and Dragons)

Dog Sword (Bravest Warriors)

[Axelmania]

I lost my massive reply to Pepsi... will come back later when I hate computers less. Need to remember to use my desktop and notepad.

Just a point here...
But to be honest most people are not going to know about TW energy blades either...
I mean unless they themselves have a TW weapon, or have personally encountered them.
Just because they are in the rule book doesn't mean that everyone knows what they are. (There is a reason that the Lore: Magic skill exists after all). I know that there is this habit of just assuming that everyone knows everything...
But most people on Rifts Earth wont know what an energy sword is, of any type. In fact to be brutally honest outside of the various kingdoms of magic the Wilks energy sword is going to be MORE commonly known since Wilks advertises, sells its energy sword and energy knife, etc...
It may be less common as PC gear, but that is not the world.

Stormspire advertises too, and advertising of either company may not reach many wilderness communities, though both companies probably have travelling distributors. I think there was a Wilk's outlet or two mentioned in vampire kingdoms where you got discounts.

Unless we have hard numbers on sales, it's hard to say if either is widespread enough for wilderness communities to know their catalogues.

It could often be a situation where one rich guy or aficianado might know because he's a fan of the stuff (even if he can't buy it) and the confused populace come to him when they see a strange new device.

[ShadowLogan]

But that strengthens my point. You don't instantly think "magic' when you see a tech device do something that technology can do. And technowizard stuff is written to look extreamly like technowizard stuff. with jewels nad gems and wires and crap all over it.

Not exactly. This aspect is in relation to market share recall. And the market for these weapons has only been explored in any variety by techno-magic and not pure tech. Pure energy blades are more numerous in the realm of techno-wizard construction than technology at the human scale. Augmented Energy Blades (like Vibro or Kittani Plasma) are another market and far more common. These examples have been around for quite some time and have established a market.

The Wilks Laser Blades are trying to carve out a new market, but that means they have to be able to draw people in from similar markets. They haven't been around long enough either in comparison.

There's all sorts of energy blades in the alien book. Swords axes etc.

Can you be more specific on the Rifts title. I would also point out that just glancing through looking for "energy" melee weapon in text can give a lot of false positives because when I read the description I get the impression it is like the Kittani-style Plasma weapons, where the unit has a physical blade surrounded by an energy field. (Ex Kittani Energy Lance in WB2, or the Toro PA's axe in SA2)

I don't except the given. Where are the huge long lists of all these magical swords with energy blades?

I don't know if I'd consider this a huge list, but it is certainly longer than the tech list. In game (Rifts only) for personal use we have:
TW Flaming Sword (RMB, RUE, BoM, Canada has a variation on it for TW Bionic Claws)
TW Flaming Dagger (BoM), not a sword but still a blade
TW Lightblade (RUE, Arzno?)
TW Iceblade (BoM)
TW Psi-Blade (SA2, BoM)
BW Psionic Rod or Scepter (Atlantis, BoM), as the Psi-Sword power uses the rod/scepter as a handle
CS Psionic Weapon Gauntlet (Psycape) is a maybe I'll grant
TW Water Dagger (BoM, TWW-1050 pg330), while not energy per say, the water creates the blade out of no where so could be viewed as "energy" for these purposes as the blade isn't present in any physical form outside duration like an energy blade, it also isn't MD weapon (given its intended target that is understandable)
TW Water Sword (BoM, TWW-1000 pg 330-1), as dagger
Spell Magic: Frostblade (BoM, FoM), "misty energy blade" is how the description describes it, though needs a locus item (sword, knife, rod, or strip) to create a 4ft blade so with the proper locus item results in an magic energy blade from a physical hilt

The actual tech list in (Rifts Books by) comparison is pretty short:
Wilk's Laser Sword
Wilk's Laser Knife

That's it AFAIK (I know Naruni Mecha Knight PA and Death Knight Robot have them to, but they aren't intended for personal use in the same manner as these weapons), there are weapons that say "energy [insert type here]", but they actually turnout to be aura/augmentation weapons.

When you're trying to kill something with a mega damage weapon at melee range, having 250% weapon damage is a BIG BENEFIT.

True, but if you are trying to kill something at melee range it helps to be able to parry to minimize damage and have greater reach than your opponent. If the opponent has Impervious to Energy (or other anti-laser options) you have a 24k paper weight (or an expensive VB if you end up doing 1/2 damage). A Vibro-blade can be coated in Silver (for example going off text in Naruni Wave 2) and still be effective if the creature has vulnerability to silver (for example, or another metal/material that you can coat the vibro-blade with). The vibro-blade, I assume I admit, is still useful as a melee weapon/tool even w/a dead battery or in a fight against SDC critters that don't call for MD overkill.

I would point out that the Wilk's Laser Torch from the main book cost 7k, has a reach of 10ft, has 80% damage potential (at max setting, it does have variable settings) is more reliable (2hr continuous use w/2 Eclips or 100 shots). For an extra 13k to get a Wilks Laser sword all you really get is reduced reach (3ft), 25% more damage, less reliable power supply (mechanically speaking), and a lighter weapon (~1/10th). I don't think an extra 13k (or over x3 the cost) is worth 25% more damage since I lose reach (~66%) and duration (15-25minutes less for 1 Eclip that gives a solid 1hour of use).

As written yes. As played, in my decades of play. Never once. Before 2005 I used energy blades (Generic) and since 2005, this one. Never once in all that time has any GM ever enforced that. Yes. I fully acknowlege that's how it's written. I've just never seen a game that did NOT house rule that one.

I am not looking at this from a house ruled perspective. In general yes energy blade examples generally don't say they can't be used to parry, but in this case they specifically call it out as a restriction.

I simply don't buy that at all. If people are so podunk rual that they think your light saber is magical, then the negative assioations aren't really going to roll into play in a dramatic way.

Dirt farmers in the wilderness thinking your technolightsaber is magic and being scared about it, isn't what's going to ruin your day for the most part

On the contrary, the rual folks attitudes can make things difficult if they don't like/trust mages/psychics. They could refuse services, or charge extra, etc. There are a lot of ways those negative associations can be played for impact if the GM wants to. It doesn't mean they have to form a lynch mob or something.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Resin weapons from wormwood are also mega damage, yeah?

Can't remember it they were mentioned already.

Awwwww...you beat me to it.

There are non-magic crystal MD melee weapons in one of the phase world books. Don't remember the details except that they're strangely expensive for pretty mediocre stats.

--flatline

The reason is they are completely inert to scanners--they have no power source of technology of any kind, and are not magical/psionic in any way. they are just Rock that does megadamage even in tiny throwing star form. this makes them ideal assassination weapons as they are readily concealable and cannot be found by any known technological or magical or psionic scanners. Conceal one in a Cane or something, and short of physically opening it up no one could know.

[flatline]

Resin weapons from wormwood are also mega damage, yeah?

Can't remember it they were mentioned already.

Awwwww...you beat me to it.

There are non-magic crystal MD melee weapons in one of the phase world books. Don't remember the details except that they're strangely expensive for pretty mediocre stats.

--flatline

The reason is they are completely inert to scanners--they have no power source of technology of any kind, and are not magical/psionic in any way. they are just Rock that does megadamage even in tiny throwing star form. this makes them ideal assassination weapons as they are readily concealable and cannot be found by any known technological or magical or psionic scanners. Conceal one in a Cane or something, and short of physically opening it up no one could know.

I think you're overstating how hard these crystals are to detect. They have no power source to detect, but will totally show up on xray or similar types of scanners.

The TSA, for example, could find them in your luggage without opening your suitcase.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Why no magic (initially)? Because I hate magic and want to see what can be done without it. Then after, I'll consider a magic treatment that does not require PPE or ISP on the part of the user.
Why no energy blade? Need a physical core to add strength damage and be able to parry.
Why no vibro blade? Don't want to run out of batteries.

Challengers?

tsh77769

Start with one of Caliber X's brothers (England 106-107), and a person who is psychically attuned to it.
Yes, it's a vibro-sword, BUT you don't need to bother with changing batteries. Let the batteries run out. You still have a sword that you can locate within 200 miles if it gets lost, that has 300 MDC, that has a psi-sword (1d6 MD/level, and has a chance of dispelling magic barriers) feature that activates for 15 minutes per level of the owner, that can fire TK bolts (100'/level range, up to 3d6 MD, 1 ISP per blast), and that can be telekinetically guided when thrown (25'/level, and returns to the owner automatically) for 7 ISP.
Assuming that the non-vibrating sword did the damage as a normal short sword, that's 2d4 SDC, but if your character has Supernatural PS, then he/she/it can still inflict Supernatural Punch damage with the weapon. If not, then the sword won't be very good damage-wise until it's enchanted, unless you want to use ISP for the Psi-Sword feature.
If you don't have a pool of ISP, or if you're afraid of running out, get a rechargeable Idrantine Circlet (Western Empires 162).

There are any number of good enchantments that can be used to beef up weapons. Since you said that you'd consider "a" magic treatment, I'll just go with one:
Super-Sharpness
(Western Empires 157).
For one thing, that'll mean that the blade WILL be sharp to begin with. I'm not sure if vibro-blades actually are or not, but this would take care of that potential issue, making sure that the base damage was the same 2d4 SDC as a normal short sword.
Super Sharpness also adds +4 damage, turning the base damage into 2d4+4 SDC. On Rifts Earth, because it's a magic weapon, that base damage turns into 2d4+4 mega-damage. That's a range of 6-12 MD, with an average damage of 9 MD per strike. Not spectacular, but good enough to get you through until the psi-sword feature inflicts 3d6+ MD per strike.

Plus the enchantment drops the required roll for a Critical Strike by two points, so a normal person who crits on a natural 20 will now crit on a natural 18, and a trained swordsman who crits on an 18 now crits on a 16+.

Depending on the GM, the Super-Sharpness bonuses could carry over to the Psi-Sword.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Resin weapons from wormwood are also mega damage, yeah?

Can't remember it they were mentioned already.

Awwwww...you beat me to it.

There are non-magic crystal MD melee weapons in one of the phase world books. Don't remember the details except that they're strangely expensive for pretty mediocre stats.

--flatline

The reason is they are completely inert to scanners--they have no power source of technology of any kind, and are not magical/psionic in any way. they are just Rock that does megadamage even in tiny throwing star form. this makes them ideal assassination weapons as they are readily concealable and cannot be found by any known technological or magical or psionic scanners. Conceal one in a Cane or something, and short of physically opening it up no one could know.

I think you're overstating how hard these crystals are to detect. They have no power source to detect, but will totally show up on xray or similar types of scanners.

The TSA, for example, could find them in your luggage without opening your suitcase.

--flatline

Except the text specifically says they are prized as stealth weapons and easially defeat most known forms of weapon detection. not having a power source is only part of it, they defeat other scanners in other, unspecified ways. that's why they are so costly.

[Axelmania]

On Rifts Earth, because it's a magic weapon, that base damage turns into 2d4+4 mega-damage.

Where can I find the bit about magic weapons always doing MD in Rifts? I thought there were some magic weapons in Rifts England that still did SDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

On Rifts Earth, because it's a magic weapon, that base damage turns into 2d4+4 mega-damage.

Where can I find the bit about magic weapons always doing MD in Rifts? I thought there were some magic weapons in Rifts England that still did SDC.

Conversion Book 1.
It's applicable to PFRPG weapons brought to Rifts Earth, not necessarily to stuff that's native.

[Axelmania]

Perhaps it isn't possible to enchant a Caliber-X weapon due to its strange components and Psi-tech-ish circuitry. Maybe they have to re-melt things to enchant them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Perhaps it isn't possible to enchant a Caliber-X weapon due to its strange components and Psi-tech-ish circuitry. Maybe they have to re-melt things to enchant them.

I don't believe that there's anything that describes the process of alchemical enchantment, but it is possible to take existing weapons and have them enchanted, and there is no mention of any need to reforge or otherwise damage or alter the weapon itself.

[Axelmania]

Wasn't aware of the ability to enchant existing, maybe it's the dwarf/kobold stuff that needs to be done from scratch I was thinking of.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't except the given. Where are the huge long lists of all these magical swords with energy blades?

The Sword of Light (Slayers)
As well as the other "Weapons of Light" (Slayers)
(These weapons even make the sound)

The Lighthawk Sword (Tenchi Muyo)

Energy Sword (Lyrical Nanoha)

Pearl and Nash (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

Brilliant Energy Weapon (Pathfinder, Dungeons and Dragons)

Dog Sword (Bravest Warriors)

*Rubs temples* In Rifts.....