MOM conversion and Brodkill

[DocS]

How exactly does MOM conversion work on Brodkill?

Are they limited to two MOM implants like any other non-Crazy is?

How does this differ from 'MOM conversion' that gets referred to in Triax or Mindwerks?

And how to BRodkill Psynetic borgs work when they can only get two implants?

[Axelmania]

The only MOM conversion I remember from Triax is the one that astrally projects your mind into a machine and if the robot dies your soul gets lost in the astral plane.

Unless described differently somewhere I would imagine it works the same as with humans.

The main dilemma I guess is the SDC bonus. I would say they still get it, and if SDC bonuses surpass 100, well that's 1 more MDC they can live from.

The quibble I guess is should we convert that to MDC or anything.

I would give them extra MDC that some MDC crazies get like that one in South America 2.

[RockJock]

Look at Mindwerks. Basically, a Brodkil can be a Crazy, or Psynetic Crazy. The Psynetic version is a better fit because it focuses more on the psychic powers then the regular Crazy physical abilities.

If it was me, I would let the Brodkil get the normal SDC bonuses as MDC, or at least a 2-1 trade for MDC. That makes them fairly powerful, but you are "upgrading" a sub-demon.

[DocS]

Look at Mindwerks. Basically, a Brodkil can be a Crazy, or Psynetic Crazy. The Psynetic version is a better fit because it focuses more on the psychic powers then the regular Crazy physical abilities.

If it was me, I would let the Brodkil get the normal SDC bonuses as MDC, or at least a 2-1 trade for MDC. That makes them fairly powerful, but you are "upgrading" a sub-demon.

Mindwerks explicitly says Broodkill can't be crazies or Psynetic crazies (Mindwerks p17), but it says they love the MOM implants.. but the only guide to how many they can get is the 'Non crazies can get two MOM or two psynetic implants' it says on P17..

But that is kind of vague, because in one place it says if you get more than two you become the Crazy OCC... but Brodkill can't be the Crazy Occ, but in another place it says if you get more than two you get brain damage (roll on table 1), so which is it, or is it both..

I'm trying to make a MOM brodkill but it's really vague and self-contradictory as to how this works.

[dragonfett]

It seems pretty clear to me, Brodkil can get up to two MOM/Psynetic implant. This means that they can't receive enough implants to make them either a Crazy or a Psynetic Crazy, which also means they will never roll for brain damage either.

The reason they can get up to two MOM/Psynetic is because if they took a third implant, that is when their OCC would change.

[DocS]

It seems pretty clear to me, Brodkil can get up to two MOM/Psynetic implant. This means that they can't receive enough implants to make them either a Crazy or a Psynetic Crazy, which also means they will never roll for brain damage either.

The reason they can get up to two MOM/Psynetic is because if they took a third implant, that is when their OCC would change.

This does seem to come from a strict reading of the rules, but it's so contrary to the flavor text and the art that it's jarring.

Triax gets published, discusses MOM conversion for gargoyles/Brodkill, but doesn't go into details, no worries, Rifts has MOM conversion, so converting it is in theory no big deal...

Then Mindwerks gets published, but we find out in Mindwerks that that does *not* mean they are crazies... it's actually a stripped down 'MOM-lite' in comparison to the MOM conversion described in Rifts. Crazies get enhanced strength, speed, healing, psionic powers, and enhanced skills/one psynetic implant (per mindwerks)... broodkill with MOM get to choose two of the six.

They mention "Brodkill Psynetic Borgs", which turns out (from context, none are statted) to be just Brodkill partial borgs with two psynetic implants... which most psynetics don't benefit Brodkill who don't have innate psionic powers.. And Brodkill can choose psynetics *or* MOM... can't mix the two.

Brodkill can get the psionic inducer as their first Psynetic implant... and then one other psynetic.... but no more.

In short, the majority of the art depicting Brodkill has the MOM implants, they worship the queen of MOM implants as a Goddess, and... they can't even be crazies?

[dragonfett]

It seems pretty clear to me, Brodkil can get up to two MOM/Psynetic implant. This means that they can't receive enough implants to make them either a Crazy or a Psynetic Crazy, which also means they will never roll for brain damage either.

The reason they can get up to two MOM/Psynetic is because if they took a third implant, that is when their OCC would change.

This does seem to come from a strict reading of the rules, but it's so contrary to the flavor text and the art that it's jarring.

Triax gets published, discusses MOM conversion for gargoyles/Brodkill, but doesn't go into details, no worries, Rifts has MOM conversion, so converting it is in theory no big deal...

Then Mindwerks gets published, but we find out in Mindwerks that that does *not* mean they are crazies... it's actually a stripped down 'MOM-lite' in comparison to the MOM conversion described in Rifts. Crazies get enhanced strength, speed, healing, psionic powers, and enhanced skills/one psynetic implant (per mindwerks)... broodkill with MOM get to choose two of the six.

They mention "Brodkill Psynetic Borgs", which turns out (from context, none are statted) to be just Brodkill partial borgs with two psynetic implants... which most psynetics don't benefit Brodkill who don't have innate psionic powers.. And Brodkill can choose psynetics *or* MOM... can't mix the two.

Brodkill can get the psionic inducer as their first Psynetic implant... and then one other psynetic.... but no more.

In short, the majority of the art depicting Brodkill has the MOM implants, they worship the queen of MOM implants as a Goddess, and... they can't even be crazies?

I normally consider the rules first before I consider flavor text or art. Flavor text can often be misleading, especially when it's written by more than one person. While both Mindwerks and Triax were both written by Kevin Siembieda, Triax had additional designs and concepts provided by Kevin Long. Not to mention Palladium Books has a long history of inconsistency.

Look at it from a different perspective. Kevin Siembieda comes up with the idea of letting Brodkil get the MOM conversion, but doesn't run with it beyond mentioning it in Triax. Then when writing Mindwerks he actually gets around to figuring out the rules for doing so and realizes that Brodkil Crazies are a bit too much, so he scales it backby only allowing them to take two implants.

[DocS]

realizes that Brodkil Crazies are a bit too much

Too much for what?

If the power level seems too high, just mark it 'designated for NPC villains'.

which also means they will never roll for brain damage either.

Now where's the fun in *THAT*!?

[Bill]

I agree with the two-implant interpretation. However, I wouldn't let it stop you from making an exceptional villain that is a full crazy. There are so many more powerful villain options at this point the limit really only serves to define brodkil in a subservient role to nastier things.

[RockJock]

DocS,

With Palladium I tend to go with the version of a rule, or description that most closely fits what I'm going for to make a character work. Giving a Brodkil 2 MOM/Psynetic implants works fine. I guess I never read the rule as saying they are not allowed to be a Crazy, there for they can't get 3 implants. I wouldn't reclass them as a Crazy/Psynetic Crazy if they get the full set of implants. Instead I would keep the Brodkil with their original skills, no Crazy/Psynetic Crazy special abilities, just what is listed for the specific implants, and the insanities of a full Crazy/Psynetic Crazy. Even give them the skill penalties on page 22 of Mindwerks. That is the same route I take for borg conversion, biowizardy, tattoo magic and so on.

Would you allow a Brodkil to take two Crazy and two Pysnetic implants with no side effects? That is more of a balance issue to me then

I would tell you to go with what fits for the character, and your game.

[DocS]

I agree with the two-implant interpretation. However, I wouldn't let it stop you from making an exceptional villain that is a full crazy. There are so many more powerful villain options at this point the limit really only serves to define brodkil in a subservient role to nastier things.

The *horror* of Mindwerks is the idea that they're enhancing creatures that are already monsters and creating cyborg-demonic abominations... which per the rules are just monsters with better skills and a bit more MDC...the rules totally hamstring the concept.

The hard limit also carries the subtext that despite having the best MOM facilities on the planet, the highest expertise in MOM implantation on the planet, decades of time, tens of thousands of willing fanatical test subjects, and zero compunctions about lobotomizing however many Brodkill it would take to get the kinks out.... Mindwerks couldn't get full MOM conversion to work on Brodkill.

To have that being a subtext really erodes Mindwerks as a villain.

[Bill]

I think you're exaggerating. First off, they don't only enhance brodkil; they're just the most numerous. You want a more powerful threat, use another d-bee as the base creature and the brokil as cannon fodder. Ogres are specifically mentioned as being able to undergo the full M.O.M. process. Second, Mindwerks isn't that much a of villain organization anyway. Maybe you want them to be a huge boogieman, but it's a crazy woman, her 300 or so followers, and a bunch of barely controlled sub-demons chilling out in a hidden robotics facility. She's a small-time terrorist at best. Third, even an unmodified brodkil is scary as hell to the typical unprotected human. Try to remember that PCs are rare and that most humans haven't got even a laser pistol to protect themselves. A single brodkil can murder an entire village without getting a scratch. The NGR and Tarnow militaries can address large groups of the monsters, but small bands are going to be able to raid and murder, spreading terror through the common people. Don't get me wrong, I like Mindwerks and the Angel of Death. She's a great villain to base a short campaign around. She's not the same kind of monolithic evil you'll find in other books though.

[DocS]

Mindwerks isn't that much a of villain organization anyway....and a bunch of barely controlled sub-demons chilling out in a hidden robotics facility

Mindwerks is one of the major 'big bads' in Europe. They're the dark shadow supplying the gargoyles and enhancing the Brodkill. A nation of millions of Brodkill literally worships them. They don't name books after 'no-name' villains.

I guess it shows how anemic their stats turned out to be that one could read Triax and Mindwerks and not think that.

[Shark_Force]

the gargoyle empire is mostly supplied by atlantis iirc. they most likely get some stuff from mindwerks (if nothing else, from the brodkil empire which gets it from mindwerks), but i don't recall anything suggesting mindwerks is remotely close to being the primary supplier for the gargoyles.

[Bill]

Mindwerks isn't what you want it to be. I think we get that. Make it bigger and badder then.

[Axelmania]

It seems pretty clear to me, Brodkil can get up to two MOM/Psynetic implant. This means that they can't receive enough implants to make them either a Crazy or a Psynetic Crazy, which also means they will never roll for brain damage either..

You mean in addition to the automatic rolling on a physical or mental table that comes with the implants?

Potential OCC change isn't explicitly the reason they can't take a third implant, Brodkil can change their RCC to an OCC like anyone else using the rules on the cutting room floor for Palladium Fantasy Second Edition.

One implant to gift ISP and another to get TK auto-defense would be ideal for most of them I would think.

Becoming a partial borg in addition to this means they could get a nuclear power plant inside them to power a Naruni force field, which I think they'd be all for now after having split form the Gargoyle Empire who is allied to Atlantis, so now that they don't have a direct relationship with Atlantis, Naruni and Goddess of Death would be great allies.

[dragonfett]

Look at Mindwerks. Basically, a Brodkil can be a Crazy, or Psynetic Crazy. The Psynetic version is a better fit because it focuses more on the psychic powers then the regular Crazy physical abilities.

If it was me, I would let the Brodkil get the normal SDC bonuses as MDC, or at least a 2-1 trade for MDC. That makes them fairly powerful, but you are "upgrading" a sub-demon.

Mindwerks explicitly says Broodkill can't be crazies or Psynetic crazies (Mindwerks p17), but it says they love the MOM implants.. but the only guide to how many they can get is the 'Non crazies can get two MOM or two psynetic implants' it says on P17..

But that is kind of vague, because in one place it says if you get more than two you become the Crazy OCC... but Brodkill can't be the Crazy Occ, but in another place it says if you get more than two you get brain damage (roll on table 1), so which is it, or is it both..

I'm trying to make a MOM brodkill but it's really vague and self-contradictory as to how this works.

I was reading the book for myself for some other reason, and decided to look for that passage while I was at it, but I can not find any reference in the book on that says they couldn't. Can you point me in the right direction?

[Bill]

Page 17, fifth paragraph, second sentence limits M.O.M. conversion to humans, elves, and human-like d-bees, and page 19, top of the right column, the bold heading "maximum number of implants" establishes the normal limits for player characters. It does indicate that three or more implants are possible if the GM allows it. If I were building some implanted brodkil to throw at P.C.s that mow through standard ones, I'd allow it.

[DocS]

I was reading the book for myself for some other reason, and decided to look for that passage while I was at it, but I can not find any reference in the book on that says they couldn't. Can you point me in the right direction?

That was part of my original point, it's hard to find it even if you are looking for it. That plus the majority of art depicting MOM enhanced Brodkill makes the journey I had very logical.

Step 1: "Boy, an MOM enhanced Brodkill sounds like a cool thing either to throw at a party or to play!". See page 3, salivate a little.

Step 2: Go over book, start designing the character.

Step 3: On 3rd or 4th review of rules find out that it 'sort of' says neither brodkill or gargoyles can be crazies. I mean, it mentions they *can* get MOM implants, but later it limits MOM 'conversion' to Humans, elves, and ogres (this is the first place where MOM implants are different than MOM conversion, despite 'MOM conversion being mentioned in the main book and in Triax that it implies, and it only implies, that these MOM implants are something other than MOM conversion and as such Brodkill *can* get them, so long as it's 2 or less... but this is after in Triax mentions MOM conversion of Brodkill.. something that is now not allowed).

As MOM enhanced Gargoyles are the cover of the book and MOM brodkills are depicted all over the rest of the book, this is contradictory with the flavor text, art, and original view of what was in theory a logical character.

Step 4: Remake character using only the 2 MOM limit, be generally disappointed in how little this enhances things, and how bionic limbs on Brodkill are in general weaker and less dextrous than the limbs they replace.

Step 5: See The Broodkill Empire has tens of thousands of MOM enhanced Brodkill.... from Step 4, go from "That sounds like an epic recipe for horrible carnage, COOL!" to "Oh, so you mean The Brodkill Empire has tens of thousands of Brodkill who have about 70 extra MDC and can jump 3 feet higher, sounds like a good thing for their olympic games but not quite the parade of atrocities this originally seemed."

[DocS]

Going to give the problem in a few sentences.

"Hundreds of thousands (of Brodkill) have undergone Mind over Matter (MOM) experiments, conversion, and augmentation"
-Triax p 220

"brodkill are acceptable candidates for the MOM procedure"
-Mindwerks p 17 paragraph 2.

"Working on giants such as gurgoyles, gargoyles, brodkill, and ogres is easier than working on the smaller, fragile humans"
-Mindwerks p17, paragraph 4

Ok.... from all that... we go to...

"Thus the standard "crazy" MOM conversion cannot be used on most giants or physically powerful D-bees. However, the brodkill... have happily submitted to psynetic enhancements"
Mindwerks, p17, paragraph 5



That I'm the only one who seems to see a contradiction here.... it makes me feel like...

I'm taking crazy pills!

[Bill]

Don't forget that M.O.M. implants aren't exclusive to Mindwerks. Any cyberdoc that the brodkil have captured can implant them, if they've got the parts. Which would probably give them a good reason to trade with the black market or raid clinics in more settled areas. SB3 even notes that there are several body chop-shops in the brodkil empire on page 8. And page 10 indicates that Mindwerks is responsible for enhancing tens of thousands, not hundreds, of brodkil over the last 20 years.

That said, you're not taking crazy pills. We're jaded. After 25 years, too many contributors, and limited editorial activity the whole setting is full of stuff like this. It's typically easier to take the rules as they are and not worry too much about whether they actually support the setting fluff. House-ruling is a common solution though.

[Axelmania]

Pg 39 mentions many Brodkil select becoming a Null Psyborg, as an other interesting option
Pg 41 doesn't appear to do this for the Psynetic Crazy, although it does mention they can be minions/serve of the Brodkil Empire. It also mentions wearing Gargoyle armor, indicating that large species can become Psynetic Crazies.

Mindwerks explicitly says Broodkill can't be crazies or Psynetic crazies (Mindwerks p17), but it says they love the MOM implants.. but the only guide to how many they can get is the 'Non crazies can get two MOM or two psynetic implants' it says on P17.

Just checked 17. Not seeing this. Does mention "the standard "Crazy" MOM conversion cannot be used on most giants or physically powerful D-Bees" which prohibits the original OCC but I don't see where it prohibits the Psynetic Crazy.

[DocS]

Does mention "the standard "Crazy" MOM conversion cannot be used on most giants or physically powerful D-Bees" which prohibits the original OCC but I don't see where it prohibits the Psynetic Crazy.

Just noticed this too....