The Loss Of A Tech Advantage

[HWalsh]

I have recently seen some... Backlash... Over the Cyber-Knight...

Mostly players who haven't encountered them. The loss of technological advantage, even negatives, like losing attacks per round, seems to cause... Anger.

I mean, I heard some really unhappy sounds when certain things that had been taken as a sure thing failed.

Then it got me thinking, and I noticed something...

Palladium seems to really back Technology over... Well... Everything else.

Technology has a higher flight ceiling.
Technology tends to have higher damage.
Technology is easier to use and tends to be more reliable.
There are tons of things that mess with magic or psionics (see the MiF Demon Plagues) but nothing that, for example, makes someone unable to use tech.
There are almost always new bits of tech in each book, there are rarely any new psionics or magic by comparison.

Is this simply a sales trick? Namely that all characters (pretty much) can/do use tech and only a percentage use Psionics and Magic?

Just seems a bit odd to me and a bit slanted.

Maybe it is time for Psionics and Magic to get an upgrade to take away Tech's overwhelming advantages.

[Proseksword]

I have recently seen some... Backlash... Over the Cyber-Knight...

Mostly players who haven't encountered them. The loss of technological advantage, even negatives, like losing attacks per round, seems to cause... Anger.

Personally, I just find it strange for an O.C.C. that has been billed as a general knight errant and travelling champion to be designed with so many countermeasures that only really apply to one evil power on the North American continent - the Coalition States. Against demons, devils, vampires, Xiticix, Nxla, the True Federation of Magic and an army of other nasty entities which threaten the very existence of humans and d-bees alike, the Cyber-Knight is little more than a merc soldier with a psi-sword. It makes them woefully ill-equipped to fight against the Calgary Kingdom of Monsters, as they are billed as doing in RIFTS Aftermath.

There are tons of things that mess with magic or psionics (see the MiF Demon Plagues) but nothing that, for example, makes someone unable to use tech.

Granted, but most of those things that interfere with magic or psionics are in and of themselves magic or psionic. There really aren't any technological magic jammers in the game either.

There are almost always new bits of tech in each book, there are rarely any new psionics or magic by comparison.

I agree this is a little disappointing, but I suspect it's a result of market forces in play. Gun splat books probably outsell books with new schools of magic by a healthy margin.

Maybe it is time for Psionics and Magic to get an upgrade to take away Tech's overwhelming advantages.

Magic and Psionics have a handful of major advantages over tech that shouldn't be discounted -

Capabilities cannot be assessed visually

Cannot be detected by technological means

Always armed, next to impossible to disarm

Invisibility

Teleportation

shape-changing & illusory spells

Ability to generate MDC protection on demand

As a spy/infiltrator/commando/saboteur, a spellcaster has a technological equivalent beat 8 ways to Sunday. It's just in terms of directly dealing damage to the enemy where technology reigns supreme over magic, and I wouldn't mind seeing some spells that hit a bit harder at low level. The theoretical maximum 90 MD from the auto-hitting Call Lightning spell is no joke, but that requires the caster to be level 15. There should be a few combat spells available at level 1 that can at least deal rifle equivalent range and damage.

[ShadowLogan]

There are tons of things that mess with magic or psionics (see the MiF Demon Plagues) but nothing that, for example, makes someone unable to use tech.

On the contrary, there are things that can mess with tech so it can't work (beyond primitive club):
-Negate Mechanics (spell), it has limits
-Energy Disruption (spell), it has limits
-Telemechanic psi-powers (take control over the tech item from the user)
-Electro-Kenesis psi-power (can also effect technology)
-Power Leech (if it drains the energy), and maybe a few other classes/races with similar energy draining ability, no power no tech
-anti-tech TW weapons (there are a few in FoM, MercOps)
-the Lightning Gun in WB5 can knockout tech systems (not consistently though)
-Hellraiser (IIRC) in CWC has a weapon that can short out tech

There are almost always new bits of tech in each book, there are rarely any new psionics or magic by comparison.

Psionics yes, magic no. Magic gets a lot more coverage/boost than psychics. It just isn't always as widespread or impressive as the tech options.

[flatline]

I hate power creep because it forces the setting to find new equilibriums every time a new book is published. But once that equilibrium is found, life goes on. As GM, I veto things that I don't want in the setting (like the PPE-detecting tech from Japan).

However, instead of tech power creep making things harder for magic users, it's actually the opposite. The tech player's abilities are measured in terms of MD/MDC, but not the magic user's. A new rifle makes your fancy power armor relatively weaker than before, but the utility of Time Slip or Teleport is unchanged. My offensive spells are comparatively weaker than before, but I never used them anyways since tech was already the better option in most cases.

And now my allies/underlings carry better weapons than before...

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Maybe it is time for Psionics and Magic to get an upgrade to take away Tech's overwhelming advantages.

Nope.

Everything should have its own advantages and disadvantages.
Take away advantages, and everything turns out the same, which is boring.

[J_cobbers]

In a lot of cases there is nothing keeping Magic users and psionic characters from using technological items either, other than having necessary skills, so they can often take advantage of power creep as well. I understand that power armor and vehicles are often the biggest areas of power increase, but that has to be balanced by the cost of repairs and reloading, chances of destruction and so on. Likewise there is also TW equivalent gear for many technological items though not always on parity for damage, TW weapons and gear has some advantages that tech can't match as well. In that respect your mage or psionic powered person can have the best of both worlds.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I hate power creep because it forces the setting to find new equilibriums every time a new book is published. But once that equilibrium is found, life goes on. As GM, I veto things that I don't want in the setting (like the PPE-detecting tech from Japan).

However, instead of tech power creep making things harder for magic users, it's actually the opposite. The tech player's abilities are measured in terms of MD/MDC, but not the magic user's. A new rifle makes your fancy power armor relatively weaker than before, but the utility of Time Slip or Teleport is unchanged. My offensive spells are comparatively weaker than before, but I never used them anyways since tech was already the better option in most cases.

And now my allies/underlings carry better weapons than before...

--flatline

I'll bite, why do you veto SNARLS? It seems relatively balanced to me, and is only available to one of the most isolated settings on the planet.

[flatline]

I hate power creep because it forces the setting to find new equilibriums every time a new book is published. But once that equilibrium is found, life goes on. As GM, I veto things that I don't want in the setting (like the PPE-detecting tech from Japan).

However, instead of tech power creep making things harder for magic users, it's actually the opposite. The tech player's abilities are measured in terms of MD/MDC, but not the magic user's. A new rifle makes your fancy power armor relatively weaker than before, but the utility of Time Slip or Teleport is unchanged. My offensive spells are comparatively weaker than before, but I never used them anyways since tech was already the better option in most cases.

And now my allies/underlings carry better weapons than before...

--flatline

I'll bite, why do you veto SNARLS? It seems relatively balanced to me, and is only available to one of the most isolated settings on the planet.

I don't like the precedent.

Technology is governed by physics. PPE is something outside of physics. I'd be cool with tech that detected things that were caused by PPE, but not PPE itself.

By analogy, I'm cool with a thermometer detecting a change in temperature caused by illuminating a surface, but not with the idea that a thermometer can directly detect light.

I've made lots of tech-limiting decisions in my setting because I think it makes a more interesting setting. Having tech blind to the raw stuff of magic fits well with the game I want to play even though, with the proliferation of psychics and dog boys and such, it doesn't really prevent any tech power from detecting magic, they just have to use "wetware" instead of hardware to do it.

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

I hate power creep because it forces the setting to find new equilibriums every time a new book is published. But once that equilibrium is found, life goes on. As GM, I veto things that I don't want in the setting (like the PPE-detecting tech from Japan).

However, instead of tech power creep making things harder for magic users, it's actually the opposite. The tech player's abilities are measured in terms of MD/MDC, but not the magic user's. A new rifle makes your fancy power armor relatively weaker than before, but the utility of Time Slip or Teleport is unchanged. My offensive spells are comparatively weaker than before, but I never used them anyways since tech was already the better option in most cases.

And now my allies/underlings carry better weapons than before...

--flatline

I'll bite, why do you veto SNARLS? It seems relatively balanced to me, and is only available to one of the most isolated settings on the planet.

I don't like the precedent.

Technology is governed by physics. PPE is something outside of physics. I'd be cool with tech that detected things that were caused by PPE, but not PPE itself.

By analogy, I'm cool with a thermometer detecting a change in temperature caused by illuminating a surface, but not with the idea that a thermometer can directly detect light.

I've made lots of tech-limiting decisions in my setting because I think it makes a more interesting setting. Having tech blind to the raw stuff of magic fits well with the game I want to play even though, with the proliferation of psychics and dog boys and such, it doesn't really prevent any tech power from detecting magic, they just have to use "wetware" instead of hardware to do it.

--flatline

I will point out that SNARLS can only detect PPE in large quantities (80+). It could just as easially be read that PPE does give off some kind of detectable effects in large quantities even if PPE itself is invisible. After all, we already know that very large amounts of PPE glow in the dark, so it's already canon that PPE in large amounts emits some kind of radiation or interation. Thence it only becomes a question of how much PPE you need for a reliable identification to be made.

[flatline]

I hate power creep because it forces the setting to find new equilibriums every time a new book is published. But once that equilibrium is found, life goes on. As GM, I veto things that I don't want in the setting (like the PPE-detecting tech from Japan).

However, instead of tech power creep making things harder for magic users, it's actually the opposite. The tech player's abilities are measured in terms of MD/MDC, but not the magic user's. A new rifle makes your fancy power armor relatively weaker than before, but the utility of Time Slip or Teleport is unchanged. My offensive spells are comparatively weaker than before, but I never used them anyways since tech was already the better option in most cases.

And now my allies/underlings carry better weapons than before...

--flatline

I'll bite, why do you veto SNARLS? It seems relatively balanced to me, and is only available to one of the most isolated settings on the planet.

I don't like the precedent.

Technology is governed by physics. PPE is something outside of physics. I'd be cool with tech that detected things that were caused by PPE, but not PPE itself.

By analogy, I'm cool with a thermometer detecting a change in temperature caused by illuminating a surface, but not with the idea that a thermometer can directly detect light.

I've made lots of tech-limiting decisions in my setting because I think it makes a more interesting setting. Having tech blind to the raw stuff of magic fits well with the game I want to play even though, with the proliferation of psychics and dog boys and such, it doesn't really prevent any tech power from detecting magic, they just have to use "wetware" instead of hardware to do it.

--flatline

I will point out that SNARLS can only detect PPE in large quantities (80+). It could just as easially be read that PPE does give off some kind of detectable effects in large quantities even if PPE itself is invisible. After all, we already know that very large amounts of PPE glow in the dark, so it's already canon that PPE in large amounts emits some kind of radiation or interation. Thence it only becomes a question of how much PPE you need for a reliable identification to be made.

As I recall, giant ley lines and nexuses glow, but not enough to be visible during the day. 80 PPE is, in comparison, infinitesimal.

But as my sig clearly states, I don't care about canon. In my setting, things that don't already have the spark of the supernatural, be it magic, psionic, or whatever, can not interact directly with PPE. As such, the Japanese tech does not exist in my setting. All living things already have a small amount of PPE in them, so they meet the criteria already, but no piece of regular electronics will.

Heck, I don't even let ARCHIE have psionics in my setting unless he's connected to his human.

--flatline

[kaid]

I hate power creep because it forces the setting to find new equilibriums every time a new book is published. But once that equilibrium is found, life goes on. As GM, I veto things that I don't want in the setting (like the PPE-detecting tech from Japan).

However, instead of tech power creep making things harder for magic users, it's actually the opposite. The tech player's abilities are measured in terms of MD/MDC, but not the magic user's. A new rifle makes your fancy power armor relatively weaker than before, but the utility of Time Slip or Teleport is unchanged. My offensive spells are comparatively weaker than before, but I never used them anyways since tech was already the better option in most cases.

And now my allies/underlings carry better weapons than before...

--flatline

While power creep has to be mitigated magic users basically have three main books that have added spells that are somewhat accessible. Federation of magic, rifts underseas, mystic russia. Pretty much every other book that has magic that magic is for one specific type of of caster that is specific to that setting such as biomancy. Tech users have two triax books/two NGR books/CS war book/mercs/merc town/naruni/japan/mindwerks/warlords of russia so on and so forth.

And then we come to psionics which is psyscape. That is it the only other psionic stuff is all specific to one single OCC and innate abilities that cannot be used by any other psychic. So there are a few ones like the spouter they don't really add anything new for existing psi users.

The next book is again another tech toy containing book. The secrets of atlantis could in theory be a pretty good new magic supplement but probably is mostly tattoos which are awesome but again very specific to a couple OCC and not generally applicable.

Magic users really could use something like a lazlo book along the lines of the original federation of magic book that adds spells standard spell casters can pick and a psycape 2 book or something along those lines or a psi battalion if they want to keep with the CS stuff to expand some psi powers a bit.

[Shark_Force]

magic is fine. psionics could use a bit of a boost in variety (they're fine power-wise, but eventually just about any moderately high level mind melter or similar is going to look an awful lot like any other mind melter).

you'd be surprised how much magic a standard invocation caster can use if they can get someone to teach them (which may or may not be simple). more importantly, a standard invocation caster can already do hundreds of things potentially (they need to learn the spells, but there are already tons of spells they can learn).

those areas you mentioned are areas where tech generally has the advantage. but there are a *lot* of areas where magic has the advantage. magic isn't about having bigger numbers... it's about being the only game in town.

tech can fly higher and faster, shoot farther, deal more damage, and typically take more damage... but sometimes magic can withstand infinite damage. or teleport instantly to a location. or completely bypass your armour or even your hit points and just take you out of a fight without dealing a single point of damage.

see, you're busy comparing a wilk's laser rifle to a fire bolt spell and seeing that the fire bolt is much weaker... but you're ignoring the fact that you should also compare a magic net spell to the tech equivalent of nothing. no really, tech has nothing that you can use to just shut down up to 6 people entirely and as a bare minimum guarantee they lose a single action. you're forgetting to care impervious to energy (all energy weapons and effects do no damage) to glitter boy armour (ridiculously expensive, only works on lasers and not even all of them). you're forgetting to compare a spell to summon a shadow beast (summons an expendable minion at a low cost) to a NG labour bot (costs a huge amount and isn't expendable at all as a result).

so really, magic has plenty of things it does better than tech. and frequently doesn't interfere with the ability to use tech in addition to magic, either.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The claim that there's tons of tech oriented books but no updates on magic is... ignoring ALOT of books, and alot of magic. Now.. not all the magic is 'fun' but it's surely there.

Atlantis has new magic
England has new magic
Africa has new magic
South America has new Magic
Underseas has new Magic
Japan... Might? It's been a while since I opened it
SA II Has magic
Psycape has new psionics
Spirit west has new magic
Federation of Magic has new magic
Mystic Russia has new magic
Splynn Dimensional market has new magic
China 1 and 2 have new magic
Lemuria has new magic

And those are just the world books. It's not even touching the Book of magic, the magic from Siege on tolkeen books and the new magic found in dimension books like worm wood and others.

Saying that Rifts doesn't support magic expansion is.... not paying attention.

[flatline]

The claim that there's tons of tech oriented books but no updates on magic is... ignoring ALOT of books, and alot of magic. Now.. not all the magic is 'fun' but it's surely there.

Atlantis has new magic
England has new magic
Africa has new magic
South America has new Magic
Underseas has new Magic
Japan... Might? It's been a while since I opened it
SA II Has magic
Psycape has new psionics
Spirit west has new magic
Federation of Magic has new magic
Mystic Russia has new magic
Splynn Dimensional market has new magic
China 1 and 2 have new magic
Lemuria has new magic

And those are just the world books. It's not even touching the Book of magic, the magic from Siege on tolkeen books and the new magic found in dimension books like worm wood and others.

Saying that Rifts doesn't support magic expansion is.... not paying attention.

I think you missed the point of the complaint. Which of those books have regular spells that, say, a shifter could learn?

FoM for certain.
Maybe Underseas (can a shifter learn ocean magic?)
Anything else?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

I think you missed the point of the complaint. Which of those books have regular spells that, say, a shifter could learn?

FoM for certain.
Maybe Underseas (can a shifter learn ocean magic?)
Anything else?

--flatline

Blue Fire magic from the SA book(s).

That might be about it, outside of the Rifter.

Then again, if you have a Shifter who's already learned all the core spells in the BoM, then it seems like either somebody's doing something wrong, or it's time for the character to look at switching OCCs.

[taalismn]

Magic and Psionics improve with experience...while that expensive laser rifle you bought stays static in performance(though, I admit that typically one has to get to 10th level or so with magic and psioics to equal even a bad laser rifle for range and often damage). It's all part of the technological rat-race, though, that improvements come faster and harder, as the tech-base improves(and is likely to go, unless 1) a particular technology plateau's, or 2) society collapses again and the military-industrial complex gets crippled into another Dark Age).. .
GM's fiat is that you can limit the availability to technology to the players by making it scarce, making it expensive, and making it hard to repair....beyond making a successful skill roll to repair a damaged piece of hardware, you might make it a DIAGNOSTIC roll..."Yeah, I know how to fix it...I just don't have the parts...those are a few hundred miles away in Kingsdale."...or tease PCs the players with the latest tech-heavy book, and not let them get the latest super-pulse particle beam pistol(since everybody else is scrabbling for one).

[eliakon]

The claim that there's tons of tech oriented books but no updates on magic is... ignoring ALOT of books, and alot of magic. Now.. not all the magic is 'fun' but it's surely there.

Atlantis has new magic
England has new magic
Africa has new magic
South America has new Magic
Underseas has new Magic
Japan... Might? It's been a while since I opened it
SA II Has magic
Psycape has new psionics
Spirit west has new magic
Federation of Magic has new magic
Mystic Russia has new magic
Splynn Dimensional market has new magic
China 1 and 2 have new magic
Lemuria has new magic

And those are just the world books. It's not even touching the Book of magic, the magic from Siege on tolkeen books and the new magic found in dimension books like worm wood and others.

Saying that Rifts doesn't support magic expansion is.... not paying attention.

I think you missed the point of the complaint. Which of those books have regular spells that, say, a shifter could learn?

FoM for certain.
Maybe Underseas (can a shifter learn ocean magic?)
Anything else?

--flatline

Lets see
Eight World Books
WB 3 England has Temporal Magic (rare, but learnable) (Reprinted in BoM)
WB 4 has Necromancy (Reprinted in BoM)
WB7 has ocean magic which is a grey area (Reprinted in BoM)
WB 8 has Blue Flame magic (Reprinted in BoM)
WB 16 (unrevised) added spells (reprinted in BoM and RUE)
WB 18 added more necromancy (can learn at x2 cost)
WB 32 Lemuria (adds a few ocean magic spells)
WB 35 has Demon magic which is a grey area

Dimension Books we have three
DB 1 Wormwood (a single spell that a high level shifter can learn)
DB 12 Dimensional Outbreak
DB 13 Fleets of the Three Galaxies

There are two Rifters
Rifter #2
Rifter 62

There are also one or more spells that can be learned in seven of the various "other books"
Source Book 1
Mercenary Adventures
Conversion Book 1
Dark Conversions
Book of Magic (of course)
Path of the Storm
Seige on Tolkeen #1 (reprinted in BoM)

So counting the Core Book and Book of Magic (which is a reprint but still)
Eight world books, seven other, three dimension books, two Rifters
20 sources in the Rifts canon for learnable magic plus the Core and the BoM (which reprints five of the books entire contribution)

[HWalsh]

The claim that there's tons of tech oriented books but no updates on magic is... ignoring ALOT of books, and alot of magic. Now.. not all the magic is 'fun' but it's surely there.

Atlantis has new magic
England has new magic
Africa has new magic
South America has new Magic
Underseas has new Magic
Japan... Might? It's been a while since I opened it
SA II Has magic
Psycape has new psionics
Spirit west has new magic
Federation of Magic has new magic
Mystic Russia has new magic
Splynn Dimensional market has new magic
China 1 and 2 have new magic
Lemuria has new magic

And those are just the world books. It's not even touching the Book of magic, the magic from Siege on tolkeen books and the new magic found in dimension books like worm wood and others.

Saying that Rifts doesn't support magic expansion is.... not paying attention.

I think you missed the point of the complaint. Which of those books have regular spells that, say, a shifter could learn?

FoM for certain.
Maybe Underseas (can a shifter learn ocean magic?)
Anything else?

--flatline

Lets see
Eight World Books
WB 3 England has Temporal Magic (rare, but learnable) (Reprinted in BoM)
WB 4 has Necromancy (Reprinted in BoM)
WB7 has ocean magic which is a grey area (Reprinted in BoM)
WB 8 has Blue Flame magic (Reprinted in BoM)
WB 16 (unrevised) added spells (reprinted in BoM and RUE)
WB 18 added more necromancy (can learn at x2 cost)
WB 32 Lemuria (adds a few ocean magic spells)
WB 35 has Demon magic which is a grey area

Dimension Books we have three
DB 1 Wormwood (a single spell that a high level shifter can learn)
DB 12 Dimensional Outbreak
DB 13 Fleets of the Three Galaxies

There are two Rifters
Rifter #2
Rifter 62

There are also one or more spells that can be learned in seven of the various "other books"
Source Book 1
Mercenary Adventures
Conversion Book 1
Dark Conversions
Book of Magic (of course)
Path of the Storm
Seige on Tolkeen #1 (reprinted in BoM)

So counting the Core Book and Book of Magic (which is a reprint but still)
Eight world books, seven other, three dimension books, two Rifters
20 sources in the Rifts canon for learnable magic plus the Core and the BoM (which reprints five of the books entire contribution)

And how many books have new tech?

[flatline]

As I recall, temporal magic can only be learned by temporal practitioners and level 9+ ley line walkers. Nobody else can learn it.

Space magic is legit, though. Anyone who can learn regular spells can learn space magic.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

high level shifters can also learn temporal magic.

lyn-srial cloud magic can be learned by a regular magic user. limited line drawings can also be learned by a regular ley line walker (maybe shifter too, not sure).

any magic user can get magical tattoos (within certain limits).

RUE pacts add the ability for a shifter in particular to learn a variety of specialized magic types.

main thing to remember, though, is that (for example) the ability to learn temporal magic or line drawings does not generally render the ability to learn incantations fairly pointless. in contrast, nobody really cares if there are 150 different energy rifles you could use... there are, for the most part, maybe 5 or 6 that are "the best" with virtually no specialized energy rifles that you might be tempted into using in specific situations (other than the situation of "you can't get the better one").

the ability to create a magical storage space with temporal magic is an awesome ability. but it doesn't render the ability to astrally project meaningless, nor does it make you not need to eat, drink, or breathe and only require a short sleep period like sustain, nor does it give you an extra layer of armour (admittedly, there are a variety of armour spells that can render each other less valuable, but even then you've got things like duration and PPE cost that can make one better than the other at different times). it won't let you trap a hundred enemies in an astral domain populated by their worst fears. it won't let you create a spell scroll or mind control a soldier into letting you walk past a checkpoint. it won't kill a person inside their (undamaged) body armour, or disarm and knock away a dog pack that was just about to close into melee range. it won't let you safely transport your entire group across no-man's-land in a pitched battle, or hide your entire party from the search & destroy patrol of SAMAS flying overhead.

rather, that extra spell from a new magic type opens up new options... regular invisibility + invisibility to sensors and/or mystic invisibility is *way* better than having only one of those options. the ability to make magic scrolls is greatly improved when you can have a scroll library in each pocket. bone magic talismans make zombies and mummies much more powerful. and so on.

there isn't really much comparable when it comes to tech... your wilk's 457 is not particularly enhanced by the fact that you also own a NG particle beam pistol, and neither allows any particularly exciting combos if you own a particular model of hovercycle vs another model of hovercycle. i suppose you could make an argument for the laser rifle that spends an entire e-clip in a single blast being combined with an e-clip recharger, but generally you're just getting slightly bigger numbers at doing the exact same thing your equipment could already do when a new book comes out with new toys (if that).

[Glistam]

high level shifters can also learn temporal magic.

High level Shifters can be taught Temporal magic, but they cannot just learn it.

[ShadowLogan]

magic is fine. psionics could use a bit of a boost in variety (they're fine power-wise, but eventually just about any moderately high level mind melter or similar is going to look an awful lot like any other mind melter).

Very true, it is also possible for the Mind Melter to run out of powers to pick (not sure about other classes) in the mid level range (at least it used to be in RMB, not sure how Psycape's additions effect it). About the only thing that might change is the point they where taken.

but you're ignoring the fact that you should also compare a magic net spell to the tech equivalent of nothing. no really, tech has nothing that you can use to just shut down up to 6 people entirely and as a bare minimum guarantee they lose a single action

kittani plasma net, tech innovation. Nets are rare in tech writeups I admit, but they do exist.

Magic and Psionics improve with experience...while that expensive laser rifle you bought stays static in performance(though, I admit that typically one has to get to 10th level or so with magic and psioics to equal even a bad laser rifle for range and often damage).

Not all Magic/Psionics improve with experience, some are static regardless of level. Equalling a non-burst from a tech weapon for damage isn't to hard. The main issue though is range, generally they can compete with pistols much easier than rifles. And only a few options exist to come in at below level 10 (Sourceous Fury by Level 7 is better than a average rifle in terms of range, and Powerbolt when you get it starts out as a "bad" rifle in terms of range).

[kaid]

The claim that there's tons of tech oriented books but no updates on magic is... ignoring ALOT of books, and alot of magic. Now.. not all the magic is 'fun' but it's surely there.

Atlantis has new magic
England has new magic
Africa has new magic
South America has new Magic
Underseas has new Magic
Japan... Might? It's been a while since I opened it
SA II Has magic
Psycape has new psionics
Spirit west has new magic
Federation of Magic has new magic
Mystic Russia has new magic
Splynn Dimensional market has new magic
China 1 and 2 have new magic
Lemuria has new magic

And those are just the world books. It's not even touching the Book of magic, the magic from Siege on tolkeen books and the new magic found in dimension books like worm wood and others.

Saying that Rifts doesn't support magic expansion is.... not paying attention.

Notice I specifically mentioned magic that was available to most casters. In almost all of those cases other than mystic russia which I mentioned the magic available is specific to one specific OCC. It is not that there is not magic out there it is that your ley line walker now has the exact same spell list available they have had since basically mystic russia came out.

Same with psionics the only book that added psi powers that any psychic of the appropriate power could take was psyscape. Lemuria adds a new super psi branch of hydro kenesis and super hydrokenetic powers but they are locked specifically to that one occ.

It would be like if tech books added new weapons/armor that were somehow locked specifically to one OCC and would never be available to any others.

[Proseksword]

Robbing other Palladium games for magic spells is a good solution. There are a lot of spells in Palladium Fantasy, Nightbane and the like which work great in RIFTs. Let's be honest, the last thing we need from Palladium is more reprints of stats from another game with a RIFTs cover. While I'd love more original magic spells, I'd hate to see a book that was just a RIFTs branded Mysteries of Magic.

[kaid]

Traditional magic users could use a "toy book" for them but psi powers really are the one area could use the most love currently. Other than psyscape I can't think of any that add psi powers accessible to minor/major/master existing psi OCC.

A number like south america have some psi users but all of them that I can think of off the top of my head have their powers as unique OCC powers. Even when they actually added a new branch of major/master psionics in lemuria they turn around and locked them to just that one OCC.

As others have mentioned at high enough level just about every mind melter has about identical powers as there simply are not that many useful picks especially at master.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well saying "oh those magic spells are regional specific" Or "Occ specific" is nice

But not every book has tech that's open all over the world either. The stuff is pretty regionalized as well for the most part.

Some like the NG books are open for most of NA, but the stuff from SA isn't going to be found in NA or in Africa, and vice versa. I mean you 'can' just like a mage from africa 'can' cross a post apocalyptic world and teach a mage in kansas but it's going to be a heck of a stretch off plausibility and only happen by GM Fiat.

Same thing with alot of the tech getting around. You're not going to have NGR Military bots oufitting your guy in Japan, with a rifle from the Dominators and armor from Lemuria.

I know alot of players PLAY like that, that all the books are basically catalogs but technically technology has the same sort of regional limitations.

[kaid]

Well saying "oh those magic spells are regional specific" Or "Occ specific" is nice

But not every book has tech that's open all over the world either. The stuff is pretty regionalized as well for the most part.

Some like the NG books are open for most of NA, but the stuff from SA isn't going to be found in NA or in Africa, and vice versa. I mean you 'can' just like a mage from africa 'can' cross a post apocalyptic world and teach a mage in kansas but it's going to be a heck of a stretch off plausibility and only happen by GM Fiat.

Same thing with alot of the tech getting around. You're not going to have NGR Military bots oufitting your guy in Japan, with a rifle from the Dominators and armor from Lemuria.

I know alot of players PLAY like that, that all the books are basically catalogs but technically technology has the same sort of regional limitations.

But if that tech finds its way elsewhere anybody can use it. Most of the magic specalities even if you were ported to that area and had access directly to it you still cannot use it. A ley line walker as much as he wants to learn how to use biomancy can't not even if he is in lemuria itself being taught by lemurians. Any tech person could be plopped down in a new location and use the local tech there.

Psi powers are even more restrictive. It is not something that can be really learned at all and the set of powers available are even with the additions from psyscape highly limited. So limited that the master psychic users don't really wind up having to make choices eventually they get pretty much everything. For non mind melters they hit their have everything available to them limits even sooner.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Innate limits on things like psi powers aren't compairable to tech, unless you want to point out that while you have access to lots of tech, you can only carry so much on yourself inspite of what you might want.

[Shark_Force]

actually, if you've been paying attention, a fair number of unusual magic types *can* be used by regular invocation users.

it isn't necessarily *easy* for them to get access, but it *is* possible in many cases.

seriously, magic is fine. they have a ton of tricks, and they almost all remain relevant even when you add new ones.

psionics could use some love in terms of creating variety (they're fine in terms of power though). not only are the number of powers relatively small, but the number of powers that are likely to get used remotely often is even smaller...

[Daniel Stoker]

Psionics could use some love in some 'broader' or add-on's to their powers like the old HU Telepathy that for extra ISP allowed you to do a deep scan for information and a Mind Melter dislike of needing to meditate for 2.5 or 5 hours (Is there an errata on the Mind Melter ISP Recovery for RUE?) for one use of a Psi-Sword.


Daniel Stoker

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not to mention Magical items/weapons can be used by most any mage can't they? TW stuff but also more traditional magcial items and stuff. Right? It's not like those don't exist in heaps and mounds.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Not to mention Magical items/weapons can be used by most any mage can't they? TW stuff but also more traditional magical items and stuff. Right? It's not like those don't exist in heaps and mounds.

Most of the Rifts magic stuff is TW Magic items. And as such "normal" TW stuff can't be used by "normals"…non-magic users/non-psychics.

It takes a special trigger enchantment for normals to use TW stuff.

I will agree that most of the StormSpire TW magic items seams to have that special trigger enchantment as a standard feature. But otherwise unless it specifically says normals can use them I would not let them be used by normals. Mostly because that is what makes TW Items 'special'.

With the Normal magic items, unless there is something special about their usage then then most normal magic items are something anyone can use. So long as they know what they are doing, or the enchantment is constant.

[taalismn]

Traditional magic users could use a "toy book" for them but psi powers really are the one area could use the most love currently. Other than psyscape I can't think of any that add psi powers accessible to minor/major/master existing psi OCC.

A number like south america have some psi users but all of them that I can think of off the top of my head have their powers as unique OCC powers. Even when they actually added a new branch of major/master psionics in lemuria they turn around and locked them to just that one OCC.

As others have mentioned at high enough level just about every mind melter has about identical powers as there simply are not that many useful picks especially at master.

I always regarded psi powers as being more inherently 'wired' into the biology...you can learn spells that do things from creating a whoopee cushion to raising a solar storm, but you're limited psionics-wise to the four general categories ...Psionics IMHO are more common than magic, but also less flexible in so far as variety, despite them being mind-based. On the other hand, with the right mad medical procedures, you can induce psionics(*koff* Mindwerks*koff*) while magic ability is a harder thing to artificially bestow outside rather complicated rituals.

[Axelmania]

One thing I think would be good for the anti tech powers is to give a range cap for who it works against. Let it increase by level. Makes the higher level knights more impressive and creates vulnerabilities.

Even something like 500 feet per level would let snipers kill low level knights with ja9s

[HWalsh]

One thing I think would be good for the anti tech powers is to give a range cap for who it works against. Let it increase by level. Makes the higher level knights more impressive and creates vulnerabilities.

Even something like 500 feet per level would let snipers kill low level knights with ja9s

Why should they be vulnerable to sniper fire?

Seriously, there is no need for that. Tech has so many advantages, it is actually nice to have a character that basically says, "No. Find an alternative strategy."

I have seen way, way, way, way, way, way, way too many players try to make Snipers. In Rifts. A game where sniping isn't really supposed to be that useful. The rules on MDC and armor alone make snipers less attractive, and even then, sniping in RPGs is no fun for anyone. It isn't fun for the GM, who basically spends hours setting things up for players to never even interact with it, and its absolutely no fun for players if the GM uses it right back.

You want to deal with a Cyber-Knight? Go a non-tech route. Simple.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Or just be good enough that you can beat them anyway, even with tech. Their Anti-tech powers are far from making them invincible after all.

[eliakon]

One thing I think would be good for the anti tech powers is to give a range cap for who it works against. Let it increase by level. Makes the higher level knights more impressive and creates vulnerabilities.

Even something like 500 feet per level would let snipers kill low level knights with ja9s

Why should they be vulnerable to sniper fire?

Seriously, there is no need for that. Tech has so many advantages, it is actually nice to have a character that basically says, "No. Find an alternative strategy."

I have seen way, way, way, way, way, way, way too many players try to make Snipers. In Rifts. A game where sniping isn't really supposed to be that useful. The rules on MDC and armor alone make snipers less attractive, and even then, sniping in RPGs is no fun for anyone. It isn't fun for the GM, who basically spends hours setting things up for players to never even interact with it, and its absolutely no fun for players if the GM uses it right back.

You want to deal with a Cyber-Knight? Go a non-tech route. Simple.

Or figure out some other way besides Moar Force!
Sometimes the solution to a problem is not to see who goes to zero life points first...

As to the sniper thing the problem is that the idea of a sniper is all 'romantic' and 'glorified'... but in reality what they do is sit there, and sit and sit and sit and wait for that one shot. Then take the shot and wait some more.

My current character is a Sniper, optimized to the max... And yes I knew going into the game that I would probably be lucky if I got two situations to use my skills (the GM arranged for my introduction to involve me providing covering sniper fire for the group). That was fine, I was okay with that and was interested in the RP aspect of the character. And a few times her skills have come in handy here and there... but I don't do a lot of actual sniping (on 'stage'), and I don't expect to.

[HWalsh]

One thing I think would be good for the anti tech powers is to give a range cap for who it works against. Let it increase by level. Makes the higher level knights more impressive and creates vulnerabilities.

Even something like 500 feet per level would let snipers kill low level knights with ja9s

Why should they be vulnerable to sniper fire?

Seriously, there is no need for that. Tech has so many advantages, it is actually nice to have a character that basically says, "No. Find an alternative strategy."

I have seen way, way, way, way, way, way, way too many players try to make Snipers. In Rifts. A game where sniping isn't really supposed to be that useful. The rules on MDC and armor alone make snipers less attractive, and even then, sniping in RPGs is no fun for anyone. It isn't fun for the GM, who basically spends hours setting things up for players to never even interact with it, and its absolutely no fun for players if the GM uses it right back.

You want to deal with a Cyber-Knight? Go a non-tech route. Simple.

Or figure out some other way besides Moar Force!
Sometimes the solution to a problem is not to see who goes to zero life points first...

As to the sniper thing the problem is that the idea of a sniper is all 'romantic' and 'glorified'... but in reality what they do is sit there, and sit and sit and sit and wait for that one shot. Then take the shot and wait some more.

My current character is a Sniper, optimized to the max... And yes I knew going into the game that I would probably be lucky if I got two situations to use my skills (the GM arranged for my introduction to involve me providing covering sniper fire for the group). That was fine, I was okay with that and was interested in the RP aspect of the character. And a few times her skills have come in handy here and there... but I don't do a lot of actual sniping (on 'stage'), and I don't expect to.

In the game I'm currently in my character got elected "group leader" ... Mostly because I was in the bathroom and thus couldn't call, "Not it." In time.

The first thing I did (because I take the role seriously, as the character is a CK that served at Tolkeen, because the character would) was get the characters (it's a large group too, not something I'm usually comfortable with) who just about all out-power mine (it's a high powered game, my CK is not in the league of the likes of Godlings and such, also they use older rules on SN PS which makes high SN PS way beefier) together to see how they operated... What they did...

Then I had to organize them for SoP roles.

Snipers? No. In Rifts "Ranged Artillery" is so much better. Anyone who can snipe can go RA easily enough and be amazing damage support.

Set them up in a 3 group system of, "Forward Assault" (close range/melee tanks that can absorb damage) "Ranged Artillery" (med to long range damage support) and "Support Agents" (people like my own character that simply can't hang with the big guns, they are more versatile so can aid whichever group needs support)

Snipers in Rifts = Bad

Much better to be highly to moderate in accuracy while dealing consistent and frequent damage.

[eliakon]

I think the problem is that people want to try and play snipers like they ARE some sort of artillery unit
Snipers are great at what they do... which is wait and take highly precisely aimed shots against vulnerable high value targets when those targets get exposed allowing them to maximize the value of each shot.
They do the same thing in Rifts too, its just the calculus is totally different as the determinations on what sorts of targets are valuable, and when to shoot.
An example of the difference
The Artillery is going to take out an enemy power armor unit in a hail of spells and missiles
The Heavy Infantry is going to rush the motor pool and overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower before they can respond
The Sniper is going to take a single well aimed shot with a Naruni plasma rifle from a mile away and pick off the boom gun of the Glitterboy just before the combat team rushes the motor pool.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the problem is that people want to try and play snipers like they ARE some sort of artillery unit
Snipers are great at what they do... which is wait and take highly precisely aimed shots against vulnerable high value targets when those targets get exposed allowing them to maximize the value of each shot.
They do the same thing in Rifts too, its just the calculus is totally different as the determinations on what sorts of targets are valuable, and when to shoot.
An example of the difference
The Artillery is going to take out an enemy power armor unit in a hail of spells and missiles
The Heavy Infantry is going to rush the motor pool and overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower before they can respond
The Sniper is going to take a single well aimed shot with a Naruni plasma rifle from a mile away and pick off the boom gun of the Glitterboy just before the combat team rushes the motor pool.

Yup.
People thing that if a sniper can't one-shot an enemy, he's worthless, but that isn't what being a sniper is about. It's about striking the enemy without surprise and impunity.

[HWalsh]

I think the problem with Snipers also Elk, is that the rules don't really support it. Allow me to explain:

In real life, as you said, sniping is a waiting game. On top of that sniping is a math game. Finally sniping is a lonely game.

So, a sniper needs to be able to get into position and wait. A sniper has to spend many hours hidden until the perfect moment. A sniper may have to wait for hours, days, or longer for the shot opportunity.

In real life math becomes very important. There is a need to calculate bullet drop, wind effect, etc. In game? Not so much. The closest in-game gets you is a +2 bonus to hit from a specific skill on top of normal aimed bonuses.

Finally, sniping isn't usually a team activity. This means that it's isolating. Meaning in a game meant to have multiple players it is generally somewhat problematic.

Another consideration is that snipers aren't universally useful. You generally need a non-armored target that is outside for it to work. This makes it less than useful in most typical adventures, even the published ones.

So it comes down to the issue of a character that is a sniper, vs a rifleman who can snipe. I prefer the latter as the former is far too limited.

[HWalsh]

I think the problem is that people want to try and play snipers like they ARE some sort of artillery unit
Snipers are great at what they do... which is wait and take highly precisely aimed shots against vulnerable high value targets when those targets get exposed allowing them to maximize the value of each shot.
They do the same thing in Rifts too, its just the calculus is totally different as the determinations on what sorts of targets are valuable, and when to shoot.
An example of the difference
The Artillery is going to take out an enemy power armor unit in a hail of spells and missiles
The Heavy Infantry is going to rush the motor pool and overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower before they can respond
The Sniper is going to take a single well aimed shot with a Naruni plasma rifle from a mile away and pick off the boom gun of the Glitterboy just before the combat team rushes the motor pool.

Yup.
People thing that if a sniper can't one-shot an enemy, he's worthless, but that isn't what being a sniper is about. It's about striking the enemy without surprise and impunity.

The "impunity" part is the issue. Not only is that not fun for the GM it would annoy the heck out of players. Also there are so many ways around it. Sniper character's players hate when impunity I'd lost.

I dunno if it's a player trait or what but the players who gravitate to this are usually the type who want to "dominate" their opponent and get VERY upset if they can't.

[eliakon]

To be fair, I don't see a lot of difference between setting up a text book sniper situation and setting up a text book ambush, or a trap, or the cool combo of spells or any of the other things players like to do that maximize their abilities

Then again when I play snipers they tend to be either supporting the team in a specific way which thus enhances the entire groups play or their sniping is treated as a secondary role.
Sort of like while you can make all sorts of 'assassin' characters most of the time your probably not going to be actually playing out making hits on peoples cheating spouses...but your character will have the skill set and a mentality that they bring to the table.

Examples. My sniper Lynette is a sniper assassin/bodyguard. She has a great deal of weapons training, as well as skills in breaking and entering, tracking, stealth, some skill in hiding evidence, surveillance, disguise, demolitions and even some medical training for locating the best places to strike/patching up her charge.
While she may not get to be taking out enemies with one shot kills all the time... her skills still make her useful to the group... and her utter lack of anything resembling a conscience make interacting with her... interesting from an RP stand point.

My sniper Tatyana from an NGR game was a military cyborg with a modified, charmed large caliber rifle. That was used to take head shots on gargoyles.
The combination of the weapon, ammunition, enchantment, skills, hit location, and table rules meant that it was possible to actually achieve a one hit kill.
BUT once I did so the flock would be wary and make it harder and harder to repeat. In that game the rest of the team would be performing various operations with my character serving as over watch/spotter, and as a communications relay point. When they located a HVT they would relay that to me and I would take out that individual for them.

[kaid]

I think the problem is that people want to try and play snipers like they ARE some sort of artillery unit
Snipers are great at what they do... which is wait and take highly precisely aimed shots against vulnerable high value targets when those targets get exposed allowing them to maximize the value of each shot.
They do the same thing in Rifts too, its just the calculus is totally different as the determinations on what sorts of targets are valuable, and when to shoot.
An example of the difference
The Artillery is going to take out an enemy power armor unit in a hail of spells and missiles
The Heavy Infantry is going to rush the motor pool and overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower before they can respond
The Sniper is going to take a single well aimed shot with a Naruni plasma rifle from a mile away and pick off the boom gun of the Glitterboy just before the combat team rushes the motor pool.

Yup.
People thing that if a sniper can't one-shot an enemy, he's worthless, but that isn't what being a sniper is about. It's about striking the enemy without surprise and impunity.

Although technically snipers can still one shot enemies really well. A sniper should be patient and waiting for moments of weakness. People cannot stay in their armor 24/7 eventually they get out to eat/poop/wash up and what not and if you hit a person with a MDC weapon and they are not in MDC armor POOF they dead. Combined with if you are using a laser weapon your gun makes no sound and depending on local haze/mist conditions basically invisible. No report to alert guards no muzzle flash to give your position away. If your hide is good you could shoot and sit pretty still and be very hard to locate.

[HWalsh]

I think the problem is that people want to try and play snipers like they ARE some sort of artillery unit
Snipers are great at what they do... which is wait and take highly precisely aimed shots against vulnerable high value targets when those targets get exposed allowing them to maximize the value of each shot.
They do the same thing in Rifts too, its just the calculus is totally different as the determinations on what sorts of targets are valuable, and when to shoot.
An example of the difference
The Artillery is going to take out an enemy power armor unit in a hail of spells and missiles
The Heavy Infantry is going to rush the motor pool and overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower before they can respond
The Sniper is going to take a single well aimed shot with a Naruni plasma rifle from a mile away and pick off the boom gun of the Glitterboy just before the combat team rushes the motor pool.

Yup.
People thing that if a sniper can't one-shot an enemy, he's worthless, but that isn't what being a sniper is about. It's about striking the enemy without surprise and impunity.

Although technically snipers can still one shot enemies really well. A sniper should be patient and waiting for moments of weakness. People cannot stay in their armor 24/7 eventually they get out to eat/poop/wash up and what not and if you hit a person with a MDC weapon and they are not in MDC armor POOF they dead. Combined with if you are using a laser weapon your gun makes no sound and depending on local haze/mist conditions basically invisible. No report to alert guards no muzzle flash to give your position away. If your hide is good you could shoot and sit pretty still and be very hard to locate.

That's not really how it works. Most people in armor who would have a sniper after them will have anti-sniper countermeasures. It's not simply, "sniper gets into position and wins."

Those people don't just pull their armor off, or even poop, just anywhere. They're going to enter a room and think, "Ok, where are the likely points a sniper could be. If it's more than 2 then I'm not using this location. If it's 1-2 before I do anything let me make sure those areas are secure."

This is actually why real-world high profile targets are rarely assassinated by sniper fire. Sniping actual high priority targets is really ineffective usually.

[kaid]

I think the problem is that people want to try and play snipers like they ARE some sort of artillery unit
Snipers are great at what they do... which is wait and take highly precisely aimed shots against vulnerable high value targets when those targets get exposed allowing them to maximize the value of each shot.
They do the same thing in Rifts too, its just the calculus is totally different as the determinations on what sorts of targets are valuable, and when to shoot.
An example of the difference
The Artillery is going to take out an enemy power armor unit in a hail of spells and missiles
The Heavy Infantry is going to rush the motor pool and overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower before they can respond
The Sniper is going to take a single well aimed shot with a Naruni plasma rifle from a mile away and pick off the boom gun of the Glitterboy just before the combat team rushes the motor pool.

Yup.
People thing that if a sniper can't one-shot an enemy, he's worthless, but that isn't what being a sniper is about. It's about striking the enemy without surprise and impunity.

Although technically snipers can still one shot enemies really well. A sniper should be patient and waiting for moments of weakness. People cannot stay in their armor 24/7 eventually they get out to eat/poop/wash up and what not and if you hit a person with a MDC weapon and they are not in MDC armor POOF they dead. Combined with if you are using a laser weapon your gun makes no sound and depending on local haze/mist conditions basically invisible. No report to alert guards no muzzle flash to give your position away. If your hide is good you could shoot and sit pretty still and be very hard to locate.

That's not really how it works. Most people in armor who would have a sniper after them will have anti-sniper countermeasures. It's not simply, "sniper gets into position and wins."

Those people don't just pull their armor off, or even poop, just anywhere. They're going to enter a room and think, "Ok, where are the likely points a sniper could be. If it's more than 2 then I'm not using this location. If it's 1-2 before I do anything let me make sure those areas are secure."

This is actually why real-world high profile targets are rarely assassinated by sniper fire. Sniping actual high priority targets is really ineffective usually.

There are laser sniper rifles with close to a mile range. I am certain there would be counter measures in place but as shown in every major conflict scout snipers can get into places that you would not expect to hide anybody let alone a man with a huge rifle. Sniping is not like a FPS game most of the work is slowly working your way into position and then exfiltrating once your targets are down. Given there is no bullet drop or other various environmental factors accurate sniper fire from max range would be closer to the norm rather than a rarity. Trying to patrol every inch of a 1 mile deep perimeter around your encampment/base is more easily said than done.


Edit

One reason modern snipers have some issues in urban environment is the loud report and the muzzle flash. Unless somebody is truly on a suicide run they may get their shot off but they will be caught and cornered. With laser weapons that make zero sound and make no muzzle flash all you have to go on to back track them is if you paid attention to the side of the body the wound appeared on and that is if it did not in effect vaporize what it hit.


last edit

Also remember hitting a target accurately at a mile range with a ballistic weapon is HARD. Only the most trained shooters will pull that off even in range settings let alone "in the wild". With a laser weapon most of the stuff that makes rifle shooting a true art at that range are eliminated. There is no windage/ no drop/effectively no time to target over a 1 mile range the shot is effectively instantaneous. So you can aim your sights dead straight at what you are shooting at and pull the trigger and baring you yoinking the trigger you just hit exactly where your gun was aimed.

[HWalsh]

Kaid,

You don't need to scour every inch of a the area. You just have to note places that have a clear LoS.

So, here is a typical situation:

We have a politician giving a speech. He's on a stage with a backdrop. We don't worry about snipers who are behind that backdrop as there is no LoS. There is easily 1/2 of the radius you don't have to worry about because it's a curved stage.

Now, to the right, and left of the stage we have huge banners, posters, or billboards. That eliminates more potential sniper points.

We now look at topography. Are there any perches within 1 mile that have LoS? If there are no buildings blocking LoS from that area (which is actually really easy to figure out, you need 1 guy with a pair of digital binoculars) and it's within range you have people watch them or you intentionally put a sign or something to break LoS.

Then we aren't even taking into account the scanning and sensor technology that they have on Rifts Earth.

[eliakon]

Those better be MDC signs and banners though... since otherwise you can shoot right through them (and targeting through them is already established as possible with some of the sensor systems in the various books)
And that is only for something like a prepared speech site for a politician.
The more common use of snipers isn't in such settings since, those settings are not conducive to snipers. But if it were that easy then there would be no snipers at all, but we KNOW that there are so the conclusion is that your strawman example is not the normal situation...

The normal sort of situation is that you have a sniper who has infiltrated into the woods inside the operation zone that the CS is working in. Everyone is in armor so the sniper holds their fire, though they do identify plenty of officers, psychics, and other priority targets (and possibly sends this information back). Then they wait. The CS sets up camp. And the sniper waits some more. And waits. Two days later luck is with him, Col. Smith takes off his helmet to get an eyelash out of his eye... and gets a laser to the head for his trouble. The camp erupts into chaos and the sniper pulls their little rabbit hole in over their head and waits.
Boring yeah... but the CS is now out a senior field grade officer and the decade(s) of experience he represents. Plus all the soldiers get to be nervous because they now realize that there is a sniper out there who could get them next. That means that now you have to go to full armor drills for everything outside of vehicles. That is going to be a PAIN. Especially for your robot and power armor crews (does the CS have MDC tenting for them to change in? How DOES their field logistics work? Hmmm...)

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the problem is that people want to try and play snipers like they ARE some sort of artillery unit
Snipers are great at what they do... which is wait and take highly precisely aimed shots against vulnerable high value targets when those targets get exposed allowing them to maximize the value of each shot.
They do the same thing in Rifts too, its just the calculus is totally different as the determinations on what sorts of targets are valuable, and when to shoot.
An example of the difference
The Artillery is going to take out an enemy power armor unit in a hail of spells and missiles
The Heavy Infantry is going to rush the motor pool and overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower before they can respond
The Sniper is going to take a single well aimed shot with a Naruni plasma rifle from a mile away and pick off the boom gun of the Glitterboy just before the combat team rushes the motor pool.

Yup.
People thing that if a sniper can't one-shot an enemy, he's worthless, but that isn't what being a sniper is about. It's about striking the enemy without surprise and impunity.

Although technically snipers can still one shot enemies really well. A sniper should be patient and waiting for moments of weakness. People cannot stay in their armor 24/7 eventually they get out to eat/poop/wash up and what not and if you hit a person with a MDC weapon and they are not in MDC armor POOF they dead. Combined with if you are using a laser weapon your gun makes no sound and depending on local haze/mist conditions basically invisible. No report to alert guards no muzzle flash to give your position away. If your hide is good you could shoot and sit pretty still and be very hard to locate.

That's not really how it works. Most people in armor who would have a sniper after them will have anti-sniper countermeasures. It's not simply, "sniper gets into position and wins."

Those people don't just pull their armor off, or even poop, just anywhere. They're going to enter a room and think, "Ok, where are the likely points a sniper could be. If it's more than 2 then I'm not using this location. If it's 1-2 before I do anything let me make sure those areas are secure."

This is actually why real-world high profile targets are rarely assassinated by sniper fire. Sniping actual high priority targets is really ineffective usually.

I'm guessing nobody poops in the woods in your campaigns.
Or eats outside.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kaid,

You don't need to scour every inch of a the area. You just have to note places that have a clear LoS.

Agreed, although...

Then we aren't even taking into account the scanning and sensor technology that they have on Rifts Earth.

Maybe we should.