reaperTWs/Necros/Harvesters/Vamps/Witches: BEST of humanity

[HWalsh]

Still all theoretical. In practice the government will be quite good at suiting public demand in meting out rights as humanity wants them, not as they are deserved.

The lack of any criminal consequences in response to the murder of Harambe shows the truth of the matter.

Are you seriously trying to stir up controversy over the Harambe incident? Are you trying to use that incident as a proving stance for how the US would react to human level intellect possessing extraterrestrial beings?

That situation wasn't a murder. For one. So I'm denying you the use of the charged language.

The authorities were reacting to what they, and even primate expert Jane Goodall, saw as aggressive behavior. They made a call that is still being legally played out. It was a decision where the life of a child hung in the balance.

[Shark_Force]

rifts doesn't have spell books. and it is stupid to suggest that any random book could summon a demon. even in the settings that do have "spell books" (sort of) it is non-trivial to actually get the spell contained within to do *anything at all* never mind summoning an actual demon (a powerful effect that will require considerable precision).

and no, i wasn't whitewashing quebec's policies. i didn't say the NGR would consider them because they're so friendly to d-bees and magic users and psychics and so forth. i said the NGR would likely consider them because at least they aren't acting uncomfortably like the nazi party. for example, free quebec is not launching military campaigns against anyone they don't like that has land that they might like. they don't allow certain things within their borders, but for example they aren't controlling access to books. they aren't setting up concentration camps. they aren't systematically exterminating people that don't agree with them. they aren't actively using the same kinds of political shenanigans the nazis used. they aren't building up unreasonable amounts of troops to the point where they are obviously intended for invading.

free quebec aren't all sunshine lollipops and rainbows. but they also aren't routinely compared to nazi germany.

(and frankly, the new navy has access to historical information, and the titans in particular have all kinds of time to learn about it. also, golden age military technology looks rather like more powerful versions of WW II military technology, so i would be absolutely shocked if standard military training for any of the nations that have knowledge of pre-rifts history doesn't include studying those wars... frankly, some aspects of the US civil war are still studied today for officer training, and we've got some stuff they wouldn't even have imagined to be possible).

[Jack Daniels]

I don't want to get bogged down in semantics like spirit or way.

The CS is trying to exist in an environment where the written word in any book might be a spell to summon a demon, you have to moderate literacy for that reason.

Good, sometimes people do like to get bogged down in semantics.

Shark_Force covered this argument so I won't rehash it.

How so? What opportunities will suddenly open up when Earth is "secure for humans"?

Available land and food, spending resources on infrastructure instead of war.

They could be doing this right now. They don't need to wait until they've conquered the whole world.

I read a review of Heroes of Humanity that says it's now canon that the CS is experiencing problems from overbuilding their military at the expense of their infrastructure. This may be incorrect as I don't have the book. They don't need a military the size of the one they have in order to develop the land they currently control.

I can guarantee you that pretty much any opportunity that you can name, as well as many that will probably not occur to you, are currently available to human residents of Lazlo, Psyscape, Babylonia, the New Empire, the NGR, etc and etc. Why is it necessary for the CS to withhold those opportunities from its population until it has secured the Earth?

What text supports the level of opportunity I'm thinking of existing?

It's not particularly clear how much land Psyscape has settled. Babylon has limited land and war-torn borders. New Empire are subjects of gods. NGR obviously has a shortage of land that's why they had to kick out D-Bees to make room for humans.

What level of opportunity are you thinking of? Having land for food and spending resources on infrastructure?
Psyscape has enough land to support its needs, otherwise it would be stated.
Babylon has access to an entire world, because they have chosen to cooperate with d-bees.
I don't see how being the subjects of gods is relevant to New Empire humans having more opportunity than what the CS currently allows. I also think we're thinking of different New Empires. I was referring to the New Empire in Japan, which I don't think is a theocracy.
Despite their shortage of land, the NGR doesn't limit opportunity (or life/liberty/happiness) like the CS does. They allow people to pursue education and even use magic and they don't genocide d-bees (unless this is retconned in the new Triax book which I also don't have.)

I would argue that America is sentient-supremacist rather than human-supremacist. No other species we've met is sentient, which is why human rights have not been extended to them. If we encounter another sentient species? I'm sure lots of individual americans would turn out to be human-supremacist, but America would probably see the sense in extending them 'human' rights as opposed to treating them like gorillas.

We'll find out when we get there, but idealism aside it's all theoretical. Shows like 'Hunters' on right now give pretty realistic 'first encounter' rights.

There are plenty of shows/movies/books out there that portray different first encounters. Some are pessimistic regarding the ability of humanity to rise above its prejudices, fears and worst natures. Some are optimistic that humanities best qualities will win out. Some are pessimistic regarding the intentions of the aliens, some are optimistic. As you point out they are all theoretical. Describing one as realistic at this time is an evaluation based on the amount of thought and effort put into the story, the writing and the production. We don't know what "realistic" actually is yet.

Personally, I'm optimistic that first contact will result in peaceful relations. Probably for the same reasons that I also think it's better for humans to get along with d-bees when they can, rather than killing everyone they encounter.

[Shark_Force]

personally, i think peaceful first contact is a great idea for the reasons above, and also because you should never pick a fight with someone who can put tungsten telephone poles in orbit above your planet.

[HWalsh]

rifts doesn't have spell books. and it is stupid to suggest that any random book could summon a demon. even in the settings that do have "spell books" (sort of) it is non-trivial to actually get the spell contained within to do *anything at all* never mind summoning an actual demon (a powerful effect that will require considerable precision).

The CS is aware of that. They lie to their people who don't know any better though.

[Shark_Force]

rifts doesn't have spell books. and it is stupid to suggest that any random book could summon a demon. even in the settings that do have "spell books" (sort of) it is non-trivial to actually get the spell contained within to do *anything at all* never mind summoning an actual demon (a powerful effect that will require considerable precision).

The CS is aware of that. They lie to their people who don't know any better though.

sure, but the claim was made that the CS is trying to survive in a situation where any book could be a spell book that could accidentally summon a demon, and thus they need to ban literacy. it isn't a question of what the CS propaganda is. it's a question of what the actual reality of the situation is, and the actual reality is that rifts doesn't use spell books, and the palladium settings that do require that you make some specific efforts to get anything out of having a spellbook at all. it isn't enough to just read some words.

[ShadowLogan]

rifts doesn't have spell books. and it is stupid to suggest that any random book could summon a demon. even in the settings that do have "spell books" (sort of) it is non-trivial to actually get the spell contained within to do *anything at all* never mind summoning an actual demon (a powerful effect that will require considerable precision).

I thought I recall seeing spell books as part of a plot point for SoT series (and/or Minion War series).

However Magic Scrolls are available in the setting (Invocation spell), so anyone with literacy could activate the magic contained in the scroll (yes I know it has to be read aloud, but that is really a minor sticking point). Scrolls don't have a level cap like Talismans do, though if the Summoning requires a ritual/components it won't work.

So it may not be a book, but it is possible to read something that causes the magic to activate. It is highly unlikely IMHO, but still possible. Just saying.

[HWalsh]

sure, but the claim was made that the CS is trying to survive in a situation where any book could be a spell book that could accidentally summon a demon, and thus they need to ban literacy.

Yeah but there are a number of posters who, in any/all threads dealing with CS morality, either roleplay CS members, or try to treat the CS propaganda as fact. That's why so many of these threads get closed down.

Better to just ignore any post that treats CS propaganda as fact and not respond to it.

[eliakon]

rifts doesn't have spell books. and it is stupid to suggest that any random book could summon a demon. even in the settings that do have "spell books" (sort of) it is non-trivial to actually get the spell contained within to do *anything at all* never mind summoning an actual demon (a powerful effect that will require considerable precision).

I thought I recall seeing spell books as part of a plot point for SoT series (and/or Minion War series).

However Magic Scrolls are available in the setting (Invocation spell), so anyone with literacy could activate the magic contained in the scroll (yes I know it has to be read aloud, but that is really a minor sticking point). Scrolls don't have a level cap like Talismans do, though if the Summoning requires a ritual/components it won't work.

So it may not be a book, but it is possible to read something that causes the magic to activate. It is highly unlikely IMHO, but still possible. Just saying.

So far as I know there are a handful of "spell books" mentioned in all the game lines.
Each and everyone of them (The Book of Ten, the Death-Song Tome, the Book of Ahriman, the Tablets of Destiny, the Venice Manuscript)... are ALL each and every one of them legendary artifacts from their worlds. Coveted by Gods, arch mages, and Nightlords... and one reason is because they possess magical secrets that are so profound that they can simply be read.
And lets face it, five or so artifacts in how many books in five or six game lines tells me that they are beyond utterly rare and into the realm of 'nigh unto unique'

[Axelmania]

Are you seriously trying to stir up controversy over the Harambe incident? Are you trying to use that incident as a proving stance for how the US would react to human level intellect possessing extraterrestrial beings?

That situation wasn't a murder. For one. So I'm denying you the use of the charged language.

The authorities were reacting to what they, and even primate expert Jane Goodall, saw as aggressive behavior. They made a call that is still being legally played out. It was a decision where the life of a child hung in the balance.

Not trying to stir up or discuss human level. Proportionate rights for subhumans was introduced earlier. Goodall not the end-all input here. Looked defensive to me. If anyone invaded gorilla habitats their safety should take priority over the invaders. I maintain it was murder since Harambe was not trying to kill, he could have done that instantly if desired. Preventive killing of the strong and disobedient is not a good path to go down even with non humans. These guys aren't alien invaders they grew up here with us. Approaching extinction in the endangered, especially one so close to us, is more tragic than a dip in human population we will easily make up for. I bet even the CS could process this. Lone Star loves dem simians.

[eliakon]

Are you seriously trying to stir up controversy over the Harambe incident? Are you trying to use that incident as a proving stance for how the US would react to human level intellect possessing extraterrestrial beings?

That situation wasn't a murder. For one. So I'm denying you the use of the charged language.

The authorities were reacting to what they, and even primate expert Jane Goodall, saw as aggressive behavior. They made a call that is still being legally played out. It was a decision where the life of a child hung in the balance.

Not trying to stir up or discuss human level. Proportionate rights for subhumans was introduced earlier. Goodall not the end-all input here. Looked defensive to me. If anyone invaded gorilla habitats their safety should take priority over the invaders. I maintain it was murder since Harambe was not trying to kill, he could have done that instantly if desired. Preventive killing of the strong and disobedient is not a good path to go down even with non humans. These guys aren't alien invaders they grew up here with us. Approaching extinction in the endangered, especially one so close to us, is more tragic than a dip in human population we will easily make up for. I bet even the CS could process this. Lone Star loves dem simians.

But the simple fact is that as much beloved as Harambe was...
He is not a sentient being. Thus he does not get the same rights as a sentient being.
However a sentient being does.
Claiming that the killing of animals justifies the killing of people is EXACTLY the sort of stuff the CS would say (with the unspoken bit that D-Bees are thus really just animals and not people anyway)

[HWalsh]

Goodall not the end-all input here. Looked defensive to me.

Uh.

She's the world's leading expert on primate behavior. You are not. So if she says it wasn't defensive, and you say it looked defensive to you, then the most logical conclusion is you are wrong.

Even so...

Harambe wasnt a sentient creature, at the very least he did not possess the capacity for normal human-level intelligence.

Again, as Elikon points out, you really do sound like you're role-playing a CS sympathizer/propaganda agent.

[Shark_Force]

ok, this is just a pet peeve here, but... sapient. the word you're looking for is sapient (or at least, it is a much better word for what you're describing). gorillas are sentient. dogs are sentient. ants are probably sentient. a variety of single-celled organisms (and various cells in your body) probably qualify as sentient. if you can perceive and feel things, you are sentient.

[eliakon]

ok, this is just a pet peeve here, but... sapient. the word you're looking for is sapient (or at least, it is a much better word for what you're describing). gorillas are sentient. dogs are sentient. ants are probably sentient. a variety of single-celled organisms (and various cells in your body) probably qualify as sentient. if you can perceive and feel things, you are sentient.

Okay, my bad (And yeah I really know better sorry)
But the point remains
Laws on sapient beings apply to sapient beings. The lack of application of those laws to non-sapient beings does nothing to prove that any class of sapient beings loses their rights. The only way to demonstrate that the US would NOT in fact follow through with its stated intention of providing intelligent life with the same rights as humans is to find a case law example covering a sapient being. And yes, you will have to find one that the courts recognize as sapient since the argument "Meat is murder" while making a great bumper sticker does not make good legal case law.

[Axelmania]

But the simple fact is that as much beloved as Harambe was...
He is not a sentient being. Thus he does not get the same rights as a sentient being.
However a sentient being does.
Claiming that the killing of animals justifies the killing of people is EXACTLY the sort of stuff the CS would say (with the unspoken bit that D-Bees are thus really just animals and not people anyway)

Did you mean the CS would argue that the risk to human life would justify killing an animal?

I don't entirely agree, it's a matter of context. If a criminal into your farm illegally does that justify killing farm animals to protect that criminal from any damage they might do to the criminal?

A lot of this had to do with this being a kid, if it had been an adult who entered the gorilla pit then we would see some side-switching.

The CS may be human supremacists but that doesn't mean they believe in senseless destruction of other Earth species. If a cow is throwing kicks at a cattle rustler illegally in the pen I don't think that would justify the sheriff shooting the rustler.

The CS, even though it does defend non-citizens, is going to be more likely to make decisions like this regarding its own citizens rather than humanity in general, as we can see with resource-prioritization with the burbs.

Even so: I can't see it going out of it's way to blast horses with lasers if the horse is bucking. It's one thing if an animal breaks free of enclosure and endangers humans in a human residence, it's an entirely other thing if a human breaks into an animal residence. Humans have a reasonable expectation of safety in their own areas, so that is to be defended. Humans don't have reasonable expectations of safety if they enter animal areas so doing so should not create free reign for execution on animals there.

She's the world's leading expert on primate behavior. You are not. So if she says it wasn't defensive, and you say it looked defensive to you, then the most logical conclusion is you are wrong.

'The' as if no other experts' opinions could ever be right if they contradicted her? According to whom?

This isn't merely my opinion, I've read this from experts other than Goodall.

Animal expert says Harambe the gorilla KNEW boy who fell into his enclosure was 'defenceless' and would never have attacked him: "Professor Gisela Kaplan, an animal behaviour expert at the University of New England, told The Daily Telegraph she didn't believe the boy was in danger."

Verbatim quotes from Telegraph: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/techno ... 66ae621d67

Usually a child is not a threat, the silverback would’ve understood that it was a defenceless small child. They would not normally attack, they are not an agreessive species (and) in the wild I’m certain the boy wouldn’t have been killed.

I can tell you silverbacks are protectors of their group. If there’s an unusual thing happening, (Harambe) needs to investigate. The fact that he went over to the child is absolutely natural behaviour but it doesn't mean he was aggressive.

“If he was going to attack he would’ve warned him first. The first thing they do is charge and beat their chests and as far as I know that didn’t happen.”

Just because Goodall got more media exposure than Kaplan doesn't mean she's this infallible authority we can't disagree with. Something very Mother Teresa-ish about her reputation. Simpsons rightly parodied it with the forced diamond-mining operation.

Binti Jua and Jambo protected kids, Harambe was doing the same, just trying to keep the kid safe by pulling him away from the crazy screaming mob.

Even so...

Harambe wasnt a sentient creature, at the very least he did not possess the capacity for normal human-level intelligence.

Again, as Elikon points out, you really do sound like you're role-playing a CS sympathizer/propaganda agent.

I never argued he was sentient or capable of normal human intelligence, people brought up the idea of proportionate rights based on ability. Even if he isn't fully human he's partway there and deserves more protection than a mouse.

[HWalsh]

I never argued he was sentient or capable of normal human intelligence, people brought up the idea of proportionate rights based on ability. Even if he isn't fully human he's partway there and deserves more protection than a mouse.

No, you insinuated that America, as a government, condones the killing and genocide of sapient beings based on the fact that criminal charges were not levied over the Harambe incident by way of your insinuation that the CS, a group modeled after the WWII Nazi party, was in-fact the inheritors to the American legacy and continued America's policy.

The point isn't that there was difinitive word that Harambe was aggressive or not. There was a sapient life that was in potential danger, the non-sapient life form absolutely posed a possible threat (which is proven simply by dint of experts disagreeing) and all the employee of the zoo had to go on was that if the non-sapient wanted to it could kill the child and the child was defenseless after the non-sapient had disobeyed it's keeper's instructions and was outside of its enclosure.

Tragic? Yes. Criminal? No.

Does it have anything to do with the CS policies being the same as the US's? No.

As far as the US is concerned all sapient life is human life. If a space alien came down tomorrow, US policy states that it would be treated in the same manner as a foreign diplomat.

The CS, on the other hand, just says, "My kingdom encompasses all that the light touches and all non-humans are dangerous invaders who shall be slain or driven out!"

Compare to the reapers who'll turn any Juicer into a Murder-Wraith. They might be enslaving and vile monsters, but by the Fates they are equal opportunity monsters!

[Axelmania]

you insinuated that America, as a government, condones the killing and genocide of sapient beings based on the fact that criminal charges were not levied over the Harambe incident by way of your insinuation that the CS, a group modeled after the WWII Nazi party, was in-fact the inheritors to the American legacy and continued America's policy.

Your imagination has run off on you, what I said was:

"In practice the government will be quite good at suiting public demand in meting out rights as humanity wants them, not as they are deserved"

Current and Rifts governments both do that to varying degrees. That does not mean I am saying that all governments who do this are doing so to the SAME degree.

Saying CS is modeled after Nazis is original research. He's among the men Karl studied and cherry-picked traits from, sure, but the difference here is that there really ARE inherently evil monsters out to conquer the people on Rifts Earth. Magic is a real threat. IRL the gypsies/jews weren't actually that kind of threat, even if on Rifts Earth there's a bunch of gypsy magic which could mess with the CS if it weren't confined to Eurasia.

The point isn't that there was difinitive word that Harambe was aggressive or not. There was a sapient life that was in potential danger, the non-sapient life form absolutely posed a possible threat (which is proven simply by dint of experts disagreeing) and all the employee of the zoo had to go on was that if the non-sapient wanted to it could kill the child and the child was defenseless after the non-sapient had disobeyed it's keeper's instructions and was outside of its enclosure.

It's not clear to me that Harambe was disobeying, he may not have even heard the keepers speaking to him since the people were shouting so loud.

That he would disobey commands to protect a child is heroic, not insidious.

A lot of animals are 'possible threats', there's lots of big dogs around kids who could bite of their heads if they wanted. That doesn't make killing them justified just because they're left alone with the kid, they need to be showing aggressive actions.

Took me a minute to remember the title but the 1973 book 'Socks' by Beverly Cleary is a heartwarming example of this sort of thing. Everyone thinks Socks Bricker is going to scratch Charles William Bricker and instead he takes care of him.

Does it have anything to do with the CS policies being the same as the US's? No.

Please don't introduce straw men like this. I never said the CS policies were the same as the US. Obviously they can't be because the CS is aware of a lot of things the US is not aware of.

As far as the US is concerned all sapient life is human life. If a space alien came down tomorrow, US policy states that it would be treated in the same manner as a foreign diplomat.

I'll believe that when I see it. That looks great on paper for sure, but in practice it could be entirely different. We can't judge the CS in practice vs the US on paper. If you want to compare the CS' on-paper policies that would be fine, but we know a limited amount about their written laws (particularly since most of them are not communicated to the populace at large via writing)

The CS, on the other hand, just says, "My kingdom encompasses all that the light touches and all non-humans are dangerous invaders who shall be slain or driven out!"

Who is "my" here? Humanity? The CS is also not against all non-humans, just ones originating extra-dimensionally, ie aliens.

[Axelmania]

Now to reply to the more on-topic stuff...

rifts doesn't have spell books. and it is stupid to suggest that any random book could summon a demon. even in the settings that do have "spell books" (sort of) it is non-trivial to actually get the spell contained within to do *anything at all* never mind summoning an actual demon (a powerful effect that will require considerable precision).

A scroll in a book is a spell book. The CS can detect mages but it can't use psi-stalkers to detect literate people. That's exactly why they need to control literacy by other means. Teleport: Lesser allows scrolls to be moved about in mass quantities with incredible ease. Once a scroll or talisman is used up it probably doesn't even register as magic anymore. You could have a bunch of Teleport Lesser stations on a train to bounce stuff in very quickly. You wouldn't even need teleport lesser talismans/scrolls at those locations since they could be teleported in, as talismans are also very light.

Controlling literacy doesn't stop the Talisman problem but it does at least limit the problem to the lower level spells since you need Scrolls for the higher level ones.

and no, i wasn't whitewashing quebec's policies. i didn't say the NGR would consider them because they're so friendly to d-bees and magic users and psychics and so forth. i said the NGR would likely consider them because at least they aren't acting uncomfortably like the nazi party. for example, free quebec is not launching military campaigns against anyone they don't like that has land that they might like.

So far as you know... how much do we really know about FQ's history?

Also until the recent split, FQ was a part of the CS and contributed to their military invasion forces.

they don't allow certain things within their borders, but for example they aren't controlling access to books. they aren't setting up concentration camps.

I'm not sure I'd see FQ as the good guys for simply shooting D-Bees on sight instead of taking them prisoner.

they aren't systematically exterminating people that don't agree with them. they aren't actively using the same kinds of political shenanigans the nazis used. they aren't building up unreasonable amounts of troops to the point where they are obviously intended for invading.

free quebec aren't all sunshine lollipops and rainbows. but they also aren't routinely compared to nazi germany.

Where's this 'routine' you speak of? Aside from Karl being mentioned as studying Hitler a couple times, I can't recall where.

If FQ wasn't building troops how did they resist CS invasion? A single state vs several.

(and frankly, the new navy has access to historical information, and the titans in particular have all kinds of time to learn about it. also, golden age military technology looks rather like more powerful versions of WW II military technology, so i would be absolutely shocked if standard military training for any of the nations that have knowledge of pre-rifts history doesn't include studying those wars... frankly, some aspects of the US civil war are still studied today for officer training, and we've got some stuff they wouldn't even have imagined to be possible).

Sea Titans probably stay pretty busy. These aren't old men who retired to read books, not guys who need to keep their mind busy during hospital stays. They stay young and virile and their healing factor means they can constantly put themselves on the front lines and in danger to help others. If anyone is going to study history in the New Navy it's probably the SDC humans who have those kinds of infirmities and lack of utility.

The civil war of the 1860s is still studied in the 2010s? That's an impressive ~150 year gap, but studying the World War of the 1940s in the year 2090s (when Cataclysm hit) is a ~150 year gap by itself... but when you tack on the 3 centuries which passed since then, it's not very likely it's getting the same attention.

Also, I don't think we should expect the attention span for history from 19th to 20th centuries to be the same in the 20th to 21st. Culture is growing at a much faster rate, there's all the video games and internets, and that's just now think of how different it will be in 75 more years. World War 2 is not going to be fresh by then, it's going to seem as ancient as world war 1 does now, maybe even older.

They could be doing this right now. They don't need to wait until they've conquered the whole world.

The CS is doing it, but they can't do as much as they are capable because of the military budget requirements to keep their people safe.

If they cut the military and focus on infrastructure, the world will conquer them.

I read a review of Heroes of Humanity that says it's now canon that the CS is experiencing problems from overbuilding their military at the expense of their infrastructure. This may be incorrect as I don't have the book. They don't need a military the size of the one they have in order to develop the land they currently control.

Time will tell if you are right. A military that size does seem necessary if they are left to deal with the Xiticix problem. Building it up in case Lazlo decides to sic it on them instead of fighting it is good prep.

Psyscape has enough land to support its needs, otherwise it would be stated.

What needs? I'm not even sure if you have to eat food to survive in Psyscape, since it's partly astral. It also might be that they rely on buying food from other communities, it's not like we're told how they provide for themselves.

Yeah I'm sure if there were valuable things to know about Psyscape it totally would have been stated... setting building was totally the focus of World Book 12. I guess they all just drink Psi-Cola and live in 5 buildings.

Babylon has access to an entire world, because they have chosen to cooperate with d-bees.

Going to insist on New Babylon so it's clear we're talking about the Amaki, I keep jumping to the Babylonian Pantheon with Marduk and all that in Pantheons...

Atlantis has this beat, it has access to several worlds because it has chosen to co-operate with D-Bees.

Maybe the CS has concerns that too much reliance would lead to a loss of autonomy and second-class citizenship? That's certainly what happened in Freehold. New Babylon isn't that bad (although one gets a sense of Amaki being better, probably because they ARE) while Atlantis is nearing the worst since humans are enslaved and eaten in a D-Bee controlled place.

I don't see how being the subjects of gods is relevant to New Empire humans having more opportunity than what the CS currently allows. I also think we're thinking of different New Empires. I was referring to the New Empire in Japan, which I don't think is a theocracy.

Ah shoot I was thinking of 'Empire of the Sun' with the Incas... although that sounds like a perfect name for a Japanese empire too since 'land of the rising sun' and all that. Both could benefit from more distinctive names. I need to study up on Rifts Japan a bit more before getting back to you.

It's worth comparing the level of threats though. Are the Oni in Japan really as much a threat to Japan's New Empire as the North American threats are to the CS?

Despite their shortage of land, the NGR doesn't limit opportunity (or life/liberty/happiness) like the CS does. They allow people to pursue education and even use magic and they don't genocide d-bees (unless this is retconned in the new Triax book which I also don't have.)

Using D-Bees as meat shields for the gargoyles or marching them off to war zones is pretty much the same thing. The NGR is more PC about it and probably puts their expendable lives to better use but they're still dooming the,.

Literacy's a different issue for them since there's no nearby FoM to flood them with scrolls. Gargoyles and Brodkil just aren't that creative. Blood Druids are herbalists so if they're flooding anything it's magic herbs not words.

I'm optimistic that first contact will result in peaceful relations. Probably for the same reasons that I also think it's better for humans to get along with d-bees when they can, rather than killing everyone they encounter.

It's better for humans to get along with humans when they can, look how well we're succeeding in that. I mean, even with idealistic kids shows like Monster Buster Club or Ready Jet Go! where friendly aliens who adopt human appearances befriend kids, they get that you can't let the wrong people know about this. They'll couch it in vague language like "Jet if adults found out about you, they'd want to ask you a lot of questions and we'd never get to play" but it's obviously about government dissection like with what happened to Alf.

rifts doesn't have spell books. and it is stupid to suggest that any random book could summon a demon. even in the settings that do have "spell books" (sort of) it is non-trivial to actually get the spell contained within to do *anything at all* never mind summoning an actual demon (a powerful effect that will require considerable precision).

The CS is aware of that. They lie to their people who don't know any better though.

Nope, basic lore magic is going to have them know about the threats posed by scrolls. The CS had mages of their own for years so they would have first-hand knowledge of these problems and the need for a buffer.

the claim was made that the CS is trying to survive in a situation where any book could be a spell book that could accidentally summon a demon, and thus they need to ban literacy. it isn't a question of what the CS propaganda is. it's a question of what the actual reality of the situation is, and the actual reality is that rifts doesn't use spell books, and the palladium settings that do require that you make some specific efforts to get anything out of having a spellbook at all. it isn't enough to just read some words.

Scrolls can be put inside books. We're getting a bit bogged down here in semantics no?

I know it has to be read aloud, but that is really a minor sticking point

Very minor. This is a setting with environmental helmets so you could probably just turn off the microphone/external speakers to prevent people from hearing you read aloud.

Even without those helmets there's going to be lots of places where you can read to yourself quietly without being overheard.

Even if people overhear you, it could be too late to react in time.

sure, but the claim was made that the CS is trying to survive in a situation where any book could be a spell book that could accidentally summon a demon, and thus they need to ban literacy.

Yeah but there are a number of posters who, in any/all threads dealing with CS morality, either roleplay CS members, or try to treat the CS propaganda as fact. That's why so many of these threads get closed down.

Better to just ignore any post that treats CS propaganda as fact and not respond to it.

Except this isn't about CS propaganda. I don't think they've ever brought up scrolls in their literacy restrictions (not ban, CS officers are permitted to learn literacy). They're more vague about the threat that literacy poses. But they are RIGHT about it, and scrolls are an example of why. It's a justified threat.

So far as I know there are a handful of "spell books" mentioned in all the game lines.
Each and everyone of them (The Book of Ten, the Death-Song Tome, the Book of Ahriman, the Tablets of Destiny, the Venice Manuscript)... are ALL each and every one of them legendary artifacts from their worlds. Coveted by Gods, arch mages, and Nightlords... and one reason is because they possess magical secrets that are so profound that they can simply be read.
And lets face it, five or so artifacts in how many books in five or six game lines tells me that they are beyond utterly rare and into the realm of 'nigh unto unique'

Why is everyone so bogged down in the 'book' semantic? You'd think that books were the only thing that people could read.

Aside from the ease of putting a scroll into an envelope, sliding a rolled up scroll in a tube, we have Nightbane on Rifts Earth which means their version of Create Scroll which works on computer files could possibly be a reality on Rifts Earth. Realistically if the 'techno-wizards' of Nightbane could manage this, I don't see why RE's could not.

So now you potentially have spells castable from reading e-mails or wikis. Exactly why literacy needs to be controlled.

[Molydeus]

I honestly think the Coalition banned literacy because of the internet.

The internet hasn't been up and running for quite some time, but the records left behind paint a horrifying picture for the Coalition. The internet was potentially knowledge and learning on an untold scale, but what it became was a bunch of strangers arguing endlessly with one another, plus cat videos and porn. (Do you know that there were once play-pretend games that involved dice and math, and people would spend hours upon hours on internet discussion forums arguing about them? Believe it!) And people developed ways to bring the internet around with them, obliviously staring at their little devices and swiping while all manner of threats like vehicles and potholes were omnipresent. Of course, ready access to cat videos and porn is nice, and the CS can use them to pacify the populace... but you need widespread literacy to create the technological base to make the internet happen. And that is a Pandora's Box that the CS is too wise to open.

To heck with books, screw scrolls, who cares about those? The internet is the real threat! We can't have our CS citizens wasting their time arguing minutiae about politics and religion and whatever online, staring at their many computers while Werexiticix Ley Line Juicers with Tattoo Magic are waiting behind every bush, ready to attack!

[Axelmania]

Rifts Earth is more dangerous than The Walking Dead and even then they basically have no time to spend on hobbies like these, if they did they couldn't help scrounge for supplies or establish their communities, so you have a good point there.

Another problem would be the Dreamstream. When you get to know people online, this connects you and makes it possible for these far-off people to invade your Dream Pool. Pretty sure the CS knows about this via Lore: Psionics. A good segment of the populace probably have dreamdance: minor. Just because it hasn't been printed yet outside of Nightbane doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Even without that power, you can enter the dreamstream via astral projection/telepathy.

[HWalsh]

There is no widespread internet in Rifts because of the loss of satellite communication.

The real reason the CS discourages, and bans, reading is because they want to keep the average citizen ignorant. It's not to "protect them from dangerous spell books" or any such malarkey. It also isn't, as stated in the fiction of the RUE, "To make life easier for citizens by not making them have to spend time learning how."

It is because the most dangerous thing to the CS is an informed populous. The free sharing of ideas would cause the CS to radically change within a decade.

As stated in MiF, the CS forces that work with Lazlo, Deebee, or Magic forces won't report it. People won't know. If people could read, or freely share information, within the CS it could and would crpplie Prosek's little plans.

Just think of how enraged the common citizen would get if the learned that the CS isn't allowing reading because it's a control measure. Imagine how much trouble it would be if people started explaining that tons of deebees aren't "invaders" and are descendent's of innocent victims who were sucked through Rifts during the cataclysm, who don't have SN PS and are just normal sapient SDC "people" who the CS slaughters for no reason. If more people inside the CS knew what really went on in North America they would be majorly on the verge of revolt.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There is no widespread internet in Rifts because of the loss of satellite communication.

The real reason the CS discourages, and bans, reading is because they want to keep the average citizen ignorant. It's not to "protect them from dangerous spell books" or any such malarkey. It also isn't, as stated in the fiction of the RUE, "To make life easier for citizens by not making them have to spend time learning how."

It is because the most dangerous thing to the CS is an informed populous. The free sharing of ideas would cause the CS to radically change within a decade.

As stated in MiF, the CS forces that work with Lazlo, Deebee, or Magic forces won't report it. People won't know. If people could read, or freely share information, within the CS it could and would crpplie Prosek's little plans.

Just think of how enraged the common citizen would get if the learned that the CS isn't allowing reading because it's a control measure. Imagine how much trouble it would be if people started explaining that tons of deebees aren't "invaders" and are descendent's of innocent victims who were sucked through Rifts during the cataclysm, who don't have SN PS and are just normal sapient SDC "people" who the CS slaughters for no reason. If more people inside the CS knew what really went on in North America they would be majorly on the verge of revolt.

Funny people of FQ can read and write but yet still follow the same basic ideas as the CS, with a few notable exemptions, no mutant animals and no psychics with a zero tolerance towards anything not human. So how again would the people of the CS would be?

[Axelmania]

The NGR is also fully literate and still kills D-Bees who trespass on their lands, basically all the CS is doing to D-Bees too except for some reason its bad when CS executes D-Bee trespassers but tolerable when NGR.

The CS people would not be surprised it is a control measure because they already know that it is and accept it. Does it control some factors not advertised? Sure but there are still valid reasons for it. Proximity to scrolly threats like New Lazlo and Tolkeen and FoM and Kingsdale are this.

What does FQ need to worry about from scrolls? Lazlo way west? Clearly CS enemies give them wide burden since they know of the tensions and probably wanted to let FQ kill itself resisting the CS. Now that they are buds again we will see how they fare without sensitives to halt magic incursions. FQ still plays a useful Xiticix barrier though so I can see mages letting them be if they remain put.

[HWalsh]

The NGR is also fully literate and still kills D-Bees who trespass on their lands, basically all the CS is doing to D-Bees too except for some reason its bad when CS executes D-Bee trespassers but tolerable when NGR.

There are deebees who live in the NGR. They have deebees in their political system.

[glitterboy2098]

also, if you read WB5 and Triax2, you will notice that the NGR does not usually have kill orders out for illegal Dbee's. just a "detain and deport"

and even then, said orders are only really enforced in the central areas of the country.. closer to the borders it is spottily enforced, which had led to the formation of a bunch of unofficial Dbee villages which the NGR generally tolerates as long as they aren't being used as havens for violent dissidents. (said villages tend to be the main source of hired Dbee labor, according to Triax2)

[Axelmania]

The NGR is also fully literate and still kills D-Bees who trespass on their lands, basically all the CS is doing to D-Bees too except for some reason its bad when CS executes D-Bee trespassers but tolerable when NGR.

There are deebees who live in the NGR. They have deebees in their political system.

I'm curious how they managed this when the citizenship of all D-Bees was explicitly revoked in World Book 5 to make room for human refugees...

I suppose after the 'panic period' they could have restored some D-Bees' citizenships or made it possible for them to get it (probably very difficult) to explain oddities like Rasheen.

Although it might also be possible to have D-Bees in your political system who are not technically citizens and who might drive in for work but be forced to live in the border communities when they go home at night.

I mostly checked out Triax 2 for the new bots so I'll go back and read up on anything new they had about this, anything in particular which stands out?

also, if you read WB5 and Triax2, you will notice that the NGR does not usually have kill orders out for illegal Dbee's. just a "detain and deport"

Page 16 of WB5 mentions the refugees who resisted deportation were 'beaten or killed' so I suppose it is possible they got off with a beating if they were not a major threat.

I guess they could be more peaceful nowadays due to more safety than they were in the past. Not totally sure of the years they began killing resisting refugees or when D-Bee citizenship got revoked. "The Battle Continues" says "sixty years later" in the 103 PA section so I'm guessing on or before 43 PA, probably after 38 PA's next-gen retribution by the Gargoyle Empire for the Bloody Campaign that happened sometime between 3PA and 14PA.

Well, it could still be happening up to 49% of the time based on that language. It's still enough to enrage Erin Tarn in her Autumn 103PA letter(s) on page 9 of WB5:

"I lambast the Coalition States and the New German Republic for their unconscionable acts of prejudice, discrimination and murder of non-humans"

I'm quick to shrug off her CS criticisms since being public enemy 1 incentivizes her to make them look bad, but given her cult icon sex symbol status in NGR as a literacy-goddess-rebel, that she still speaks badly of them in spite of this probably does mean they're pretty brutal towards non-humans.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The NGR is also fully literate and still kills D-Bees who trespass on their lands, basically all the CS is doing to D-Bees too except for some reason its bad when CS executes D-Bee trespassers but tolerable when NGR.

There are deebees who live in the NGR. They have deebees in their political system.

Well heck, there are DBees living within the coalition borders and normally in the burbs.

[HWalsh]

The NGR is also fully literate and still kills D-Bees who trespass on their lands, basically all the CS is doing to D-Bees too except for some reason its bad when CS executes D-Bee trespassers but tolerable when NGR.

There are deebees who live in the NGR. They have deebees in their political system.

Well heck, there are DBees living within the coalition borders and normally in the burbs.

Name me one Deebee who's a CS politician, hero, who runs an entire section of the CS political wing focused on the protection, welfare, and expanding the rights of Deebees...

Because that's a thing in the NGR.

[Axelmania]

I may have to refresh myself on how much authority Rasheen has and how much is hot air. If.he had real power to affect change we probably would have seen it by now. Maybe just a figurehead to lessen D-bee rebellion.so fewer ally with the Gargoyles. I figured he was tolerated because they like incentivizing mass Gurgoyle slaughter. Rasheen types are not as directly useful to the CS who deal with subtler enemies.

[HWalsh]

I may have to refresh myself on how much authority Rasheen has and how much is hot air. If.he had real power to affect change we probably would have seen it by now. Maybe just a figurehead to lessen D-bee rebellion.so fewer ally with the Gargoyles. I figured he was tolerated because they like incentivizing mass Gurgoyle slaughter. Rasheen types are not as directly useful to the CS who deal with subtler enemies.

He's a well know, well liked, public figure who's seen as a hero. He's not there just to placate the masses. Axel, you're just going to have to accept that the CS is pretty bad compared to other groups.

[Axelmania]

I never said the CS are the best guys, but there's a lot who do equal or worse who get painted brighter.

Tarn lumped them together in a statement condemning both for murdering D-Bees in spite of the NGR hero-worshipping her. Is she lying about them to seem more neutral?

The NGR isn't necessarily more tolerent because they're nice guys, but because they need a lot of help fighting their war and it's better to have Rasheen as an ally than an enemy. Given the help he has done for them in the past, turning on him wouldn't just lose him but the future help of a lot of people who don't see NGR as reciprocating aid.

The CS hasn't been helped selflessly by D-Bees to this degree so why should they show the same level of appreciation? I mean sure, Coake in theory rescued Karl's wife, but for all he knows, Coake and Dunscon are in cahoots and only doing this to foster doubts. Coake's knights have probably murdered enough CS troops to counter-balance the scales. How many NGR troops have Rasheen or his underlings killed?

CS is willing to discuss alliance and trade with a nation with a big dwarf population so they're not as extreme as everyone thinks. Being on another continent is apparently far enough that they feel save from short SDC guys who have a history of hating most magic, with TW being a recent exception (and apparently being a 'Creator' High Magus based on the Magestar guy)

[HWalsh]

I never said the CS are the best guys, but there's a lot who do equal or worse who get painted brighter.

Tarn lumped them together in a statement condemning both for murdering D-Bees in spite of the NGR hero-worshipping her. Is she lying about them to seem more neutral?

No. Her writings predate Rasheen who did a lot to help the cause. If you read Triax 2, actually read it rather than treating it like a weapons ordering booklet, you can see that the NGR is way more permissive than the CS has ever been. They allow Deebee citizens. They allow Deebees to own businesses. Yes, they are still real unacceptable on the housing, but at least they don't kill them.

They openly have free speech where they discuss the rights of deebees. That is centuries ahead of the CS in terms of sheer enlightenment and tolerance.

The NGR isn't necessarily more tolerent because they're nice guys, but because they need a lot of help fighting their war and it's better to have Rasheen as an ally than an enemy. Given the help he has done for them in the past, turning on him wouldn't just lose him but the future help of a lot of people who don't see NGR as reciprocating aid.

Not really. Rasheen is very famous, but they don't need him. They haven't needed him for a long time. Rasheen is a Cyber-Knight, by the way, and as such would help without the NGR having to give him anything. The NGR is simply more enlightened than the CS.

The CS hasn't been helped selflessly by D-Bees to this degree so why should they show the same level of appreciation? I mean sure, Coake in theory rescued Karl's wife, but for all he knows, Coake and Dunscon are in cahoots and only doing this to foster doubts. Coake's knights have probably murdered enough CS troops to counter-balance the scales. How many NGR troops have Rasheen or his underlings killed?

Rasheen is a Cyber-Knight. He is one of Coake's Knights.

No, Coake's Knights have done more good for the people of the CS than they have ever done harm. So much good, in fact, that the CS didn't even put a kill order when half of the CK Order stood against them at Tolkeen. The CK's are beloved by the people of the CS, and everyone in North America, if the CS even tried to paint them as villains, or even dared to call them any of the things they call most deebees I suspect the backlash would be riotous.

CS is willing to discuss alliance and trade with a nation with a big dwarf population so they're not as extreme as everyone thinks. Being on another continent is apparently far enough that they feel save from short SDC guys who have a history of hating most magic, with TW being a recent exception (and apparently being a 'Creator' High Magus based on the Magestar guy)

Karl Prosek is an insane, evil, megalomaniac. He'll not stop (nor will his son) until they have subjugated and control the entire planet. If they are talking peace right now with any nation, regardless of distance, it is only a temporary measure until they are strong enough, and have the time to, take them down. If the CS remains a dominant force on Rifts Earth eventually they will wage war on the NGR... They just, right now, have bigger fish to fry.

[Axelmania]

Rasheen is recent? The writings in question were letters from 103 PA. I thought Rasheen was this centuries-old hero and had won the trust of the NGR by decades of Gurgoyle-battlin' service.

Is there support for the idea the knights benefit more than harm the CS? Their abilities are suspiciously anti-tech, they seem tailored to oppose the CS.

The CS not putting out a universal kill order on all knights doesn't mean anything other than the CS are reaonable and recognize those were rebels and are not going to prioritize targeting enemies who are smart enough to run off. Kind of like how they won't spread north to reclaim Lazlo for humanity until they've finished spreading east.

I don't buy that 'everyone' in North America (much less the CS) loves cyber-knights. You might be embelleshing a bit. What actual portion are you citing from, 'most' or something?

Q: does Karl canonically have any Insanities? If not, then where is he called insane? I would like to check the context of this. He's certainly evil (Diabolic even) but that alignment doesn't require you to have to conquer the entire planet. He could well be satisfied by holding a big piece of the pie and having human allies control the other portions.

There's no guarantee that the CS will war on the NGR. There are parts of the CS concerned about an NGR invasion of North America in the far future but that's obviously a long-term concern and it's unclear how large that element is. Characterizing the CS as having anti-NGR status is giving too much credit to a minority, kind of like thinking most of the New Navy is anti-Sea Titan just because an element of them distrust the Sea Titans.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The NGR is also fully literate and still kills D-Bees who trespass on their lands, basically all the CS is doing to D-Bees too except for some reason its bad when CS executes D-Bee trespassers but tolerable when NGR.

There are deebees who live in the NGR. They have deebees in their political system.

Well heck, there are DBees living within the coalition borders and normally in the burbs.

Name me one Deebee who's a CS politician, hero, who runs an entire section of the CS political wing focused on the protection, welfare, and expanding the rights of Deebees...

Because that's a thing in the NGR.

sorry the CS isn't about that life, I just said there are more DBees living in the CS borders then NGR.

[HWalsh]

Rasheen is recent? The writings in question were letters from 103 PA. I thought Rasheen was this centuries-old hero and had won the trust of the NGR by decades of Gurgoyle-battlin' service.

Rasheen didn't start working for Equal Rights for Deebees within the NGR until "Recently" under his bio on page 68 of Triax 2. Since Triax 2 takes place post 109 PA we can only infer "Recently" doesn't mean "almost a decade ago" in 103 PA. Since the changes were made to the NGR because Sir Rasheen initiated them we can thus easily draw that all of this happened after 103 PA and well after Tarn's writings.

Is there support for the idea the knights benefit more than harm the CS? Their abilities are suspiciously anti-tech, they seem tailored to oppose the CS.

There are tons of support for that.

First, the Knights didn't have anti-tech powers (out of game) until after 105 PA. Though they had them all along they never used them until 105 PA or later. So them having them is irrelevant.

Page 61 of RUE states that the Cyber-Knights are, "Heroes to the People"

Page 61 of RUE states that (among CS Soldiers) Cyber-Knights are, "May coalition soldiers see Cyber-Knights as noble and heroic figures" (though the leadership doesn't like them)

SoT 4 page 9 states: "It is the Cyber-Knights' acceptance of all people, human and nonhuman, and their never-ending battle against supernatural evil, that have made them folk heroes and living legends. This means Cyber-Knights find allies everywhere, from tribes of Indians, Simvan and Sasquatch, to homesteads, towns and cities across the Americas, even the streets of the Chi-Town 'Burbs."

SoT 4 page 9 states: "As a result, the noble knights have won the affection, trust and respect of all people regardless of race and position."

SoT 4 page 9 again states, in reference to the CS leadership: "The CS has condemned the Cyber-Knights as notorious "D-Bee-lovers and self-appointed wilderness heroes," and they have even had their share of skirmishes with individual knights, yet the CS has elected to ignore Cyber-Knights as a whole."

(Note that this defeats the idea that the CS has lost more to them than they have gained.)

The CS not putting out a universal kill order on all knights doesn't mean anything other than the CS are reaonable and recognize those were rebels and are not going to prioritize targeting enemies who are smart enough to run off. Kind of like how they won't spread north to reclaim Lazlo for humanity until they've finished spreading east.

I don't buy that 'everyone' in North America (much less the CS) loves cyber-knights. You might be embelleshing a bit. What actual portion are you citing from, 'most' or something?

See above, SoT 4 page 9:
"As a result, the noble knights have won the affection, trust and respect of all people regardless of race and position."

So yes. All people means pretty much everyone, even the people of the CS, even if the CS leadership disagrees and releases propaganda to the contrary.

Side note:
The Cyber-Knights are also granted the distinction that they are given credit for keeping the Vampire Kingdoms at bay, mostly this is unearned technically, while Reid's Rangers are indeed rogue Cyber-Knights they, by being rogue, aren't part of the order. Though they do follow the codes and tenets of the order and are considered to be Cyber-Knights by everyone... And have Cyber-Knight powers...

We know from SoT 4 page 11 that CK reputations took a hit among CS citizens after SoT because of their association with the Tolkeen forces because the CS intentionally hid the fact that the CK's argued against Tolkeen's use of the Daemonix and the Sorcerer's Revenge as well as they fact that the CK's actively broke sides and lost lives defending CS soldier retreats. Also, we are told that the CKs went out of their way while fighting the Coalition to not kill CS Soldiers, which, also, the CS chose to hide from their people.

MiF page 41-42 states that the CK's, during the Minion War, took the fight to the Demons at the largest gathering point the Kingdom of Monsters and the Calgary Rift. In doing so they reinvigorated the faith in them that "the people" had. Rising to new heights in popularity by rescuing people from demon attacks against impossible odds time and time again. Arguably the CK's saved all of North America because Lord Doom nearly had a working Hell Pit when the CK's made their move and lead an attack to kill him. We won't find out if this was truly successful until the next timeline comes out, but we are told in that blurb that the forces of Doom won't see the attack coming due to their supreme arrogance. So its fairly safe to assume that they succeeded.

We are also told on page 44 that nobody but the Cyber-Knights is aware of the threat. If Doom succeeds then the CS falls as millions of demons will pour through right in the CS's backyard when their forces aren't aware of a threat even being there. So yeah. I'd say the CK's have done more good than harm for the people in North America.

Heck, the CKs are so well thought of that in MiF on page 47 it even states that even the Spluggorth will help them.

How well liked are the CKs? Well this is from page 177 of MiF: "Though their numbers are small, even with the thousands of new recruits thronging to them and pleading to be taught the way of the Cyber-Knights, they will become one of the greatest symbols of hope and an inspiration to everyone in the Americas."

Again, they like using the words, "All" and "Everyone" when describing the way people feel about the CKs...

Here, also from MiF page 177, "The Cyber-Knights become leaders and figureheads of the resistance" note they are referring to fight against the demons. Notice they don't say, "The CS is the leaders of the fight against the demons" etc etc. Oh no, the so-called "Heroes of Humanity" don't even get an honorable mention. Who does? The real saviors of humanity. The Cyber-Knights.

Basically, as unbelievable as it is, the only group in all of Rifts that is seen as heroes to everyone... From Chi-Town to the 'Burbs, from the NGR to England, from Africa to South America to Australia, embroiled in every conflict, part of every valiant effort, are the Cyber-Knights.

Q: does Karl canonically have any Insanities? If not, then where is he called insane? I would like to check the context of this. He's certainly evil (Diabolic even) but that alignment doesn't require you to have to conquer the entire planet. He could well be satisfied by holding a big piece of the pie and having human allies control the other portions.

CWC page 212 states that he is evil, insane, and a megalomaniac. In fact he's called insane in a number of books. That is just the page number and book I recall off the top of my head. It also states that he seeks world domination.

There's no guarantee that the CS will war on the NGR. There are parts of the CS concerned about an NGR invasion of North America in the far future but that's obviously a long-term concern and it's unclear how large that element is. Characterizing the CS as having anti-NGR status is giving too much credit to a minority, kind of like thinking most of the New Navy is anti-Sea Titan just because an element of them distrust the Sea Titans.

Karl Prosek, and his son, seek world domination. They can't dominate the world if the NGR remains. After the dust settles, if the CS is still there, barring some serious reforms, that means everyone else has to die or submit. We know that any humans who cannot integrate to the CS's way of thinking is killed as well. So, yeah, if it comes down to it, and the "aliens" have been dealt with, then the CS will turn on its allies. Heck, it even states that the CS will attack Free Quebec if they don't eventually return to the fold (they believe that they will in time).

[Axelmania]

sorry the CS isn't about that life, I just said there are more DBees living in the CS borders then NGR.

I never bothered to run the numbers, that's interesting. So NGR is all about talking nice with them so long as most of them still live as a barrier against the gargoyles and stay out of the safe zones. CS on the other hand indirectly provides them safety by proximity by kinda tolerating their presence in the nooks and grannies between their fortress cities. CS is accidentally protecting more D-Bees than NGR does intentionally?

Rasheen didn't start working for Equal Rights for Deebees within the NGR until "Recently" under his bio on page 68 of Triax 2. Since Triax 2 takes place post 109 PA we can only infer "Recently" doesn't mean "almost a decade ago" in 103 PA. Since the changes were made to the NGR because Sir Rasheen initiated them we can thus easily draw that all of this happened after 103 PA and well after Tarn's writings.

'Recently' can be a lot longer for a Rahu-Man than what it means for us, unless we're given a year I can't accept any assumptions about what the word means. Refreshing on the CB he was a general and on the council of governers. Although... I think that came out before WB5 so I'm not sure that the council governed... the NGR itself, the governance of D-Bee communities on the border?

First, the Knights didn't have anti-tech powers (out of game) until after 105 PA. Though they had them all along they never used them until 105 PA or later. So them having them is irrelevant.

Er no, it would actually be less relevant if they had them recently to stop CS incursions. Them having them all along is strange since it speaks of a focus on stopping human armaments instead of monsters.

Page 61 of RUE states that the Cyber-Knights are, "Heroes to the People"

Page 61 of RUE states that (among CS Soldiers) Cyber-Knights are, "May coalition soldiers see Cyber-Knights as noble and heroic figures" (though the leadership doesn't like them)

Which people? 'Many' can still be a small percentage of millions.

SoT 4 page 9 states: "It is the Cyber-Knights' acceptance of all people, human and nonhuman, and their never-ending battle against supernatural evil, that have made them folk heroes and living legends. This means Cyber-Knights find allies everywhere, from tribes of Indians, Simvan and Sasquatch, to homesteads, towns and cities across the Americas, even the streets of the Chi-Town 'Burbs."

Them being heroes and legends to some folk and finding lots of allies isn't universal belovedness. The Burbs aren't exactly where CS citizens hang out so this doesn't reflect anything about the CS.

SoT 4 page 9 states: "As a result, the noble knights have won the affection, trust and respect of all people regardless of race and position."

All people where? In the Palladium World? In Nightbane? In Australia? In the United Worlds of Warlock? This clearly means "all kinds of people" and that they have won friends in all kinds of races and position. It can't literally mean 'all people' or no person would ever distrust, dislike, or not respect a Cyber-Knight. Mystic Knights are people too, the Coalition Soldiers who attacked Thorpe are people too, Knight Hunter is/was a person so it's clearly not 'all people everywhere' meant here.

SoT 4 page 9 again states, in reference to the CS leadership: "The CS has condemned the Cyber-Knights as notorious "D-Bee-lovers and self-appointed wilderness heroes," and they have even had their share of skirmishes with individual knights, yet the CS has elected to ignore Cyber-Knights as a whole."

(Note that this defeats the idea that the CS has lost more to them than they have gained.)

Opting to ignore something doesn't mean that at all. It may just mean there are bigger threats to deal with and they realize that cyber-knights are a problem they can put off because they're not as malevolent as shifters unleashing demonic armies. Not wanting to wipe them out 'as a whole' means they recognize they're not universal threats. Kind of like how they don't wipe out Psi-Stalkers as a whole. They can still recognize that there are groups of them who are problems working against CS interests.

See above, SoT 4 page 9:
"As a result, the noble knights have won the affection, trust and respect of all people regardless of race and position."

So yes. All people means pretty much everyone, even the people of the CS, even if the CS leadership disagrees and releases propaganda to the contrary.

Nope. That's either 'all people' in a specific area (not necessarily the CS) or meaning 'all kinds'. Obviously it can't literally be all people since there are some people who have never heard of them and can't have an opinion, and others who hate them.

Even if you might argue that Mystic Knights might secretly respect them even if they don't like them, it says 'and' and not 'or' so for that statement to be universally true it would need to be all 3 for everyone, no exceptions.

Side note:
The Cyber-Knights are also granted the distinction that they are given credit for keeping the Vampire Kingdoms at bay, mostly this is unearned technically, while Reid's Rangers are indeed rogue Cyber-Knights they, by being rogue, aren't part of the order. Though they do follow the codes and tenets of the order and are considered to be Cyber-Knights by everyone... And have Cyber-Knight powers...

Those anti-tech powers sure are useful against vamps =/ I guess having a psi-sword is nice since it can't be broken like a stake (although it can't put them into stasis either...) and it can parry MD punches from vamps.

We know from SoT 4 page 11 that CK reputations took a hit among CS citizens after SoT because of their association with the Tolkeen forces because the CS intentionally hid the fact that the CK's argued against Tolkeen's use of the Daemonix and the Sorcerer's Revenge as well as they fact that the CK's actively broke sides and lost lives defending CS soldier retreats. Also, we are told that the CKs went out of their way while fighting the Coalition to not kill CS Soldiers, which, also, the CS chose to hide from their people.

The CS has to vet claims, who's to say that the psychic defending a CS retreat was a knight and not a humble Psi-Bat operative who doesn't want the thanks? The voicing of disapproval is irrelevant, either you left, you fought the demons the Tolkeenites summoned, or you styed and helped and wagged your finger.

MiF page 41-42 states that the CK's, during the Minion War, took the fight to the Demons at the largest gathering point the Kingdom of Monsters and the Calgary Rift. In doing so they reinvigorated the faith in them that "the people" had.

Which people? The people of what? Not specific enough to be useful in an argument about en masse CS opinions.

[qu
ote="HWalsh"]Rising to new heights in popularity by rescuing people from demon attacks against impossible odds time and time again. Arguably the CK's saved all of North America because Lord Doom nearly had a working Hell Pit when the CK's made their move and lead an attack to kill him. We won't find out if this was truly successful until the next timeline comes out, but we are told in that blurb that the forces of Doom won't see the attack coming due to their supreme arrogance. So its fairly safe to assume that they succeeded.
[/quote]
Not seeing the attack coming does not mean the attack will succeed. It will probably cost more resources to stop if it fails though.

We are also told on page 44 that nobody but the Cyber-Knights is aware of the threat. If Doom succeeds then the CS falls as millions of demons will pour through right in the CS's backyard when their forces aren't aware of a threat even being there. So yeah. I'd say the CK's have done more good than harm for the people in North America.

If the CKs are such nice guys, why are they keeping such valuable intel to themselves so they can play hero instead of sharing it with the CS and other concerned parties in North America? Are their radios broken?

Heck, the CKs are so well thought of that in MiF on page 47 it even states that even the Spluggorth will help them.

I don't see that as having anything to do with their reputation and more to do with the Splugorth doesn't want a bunch of demons ruining their slave-catching grounds.

How well liked are the CKs? Well this is from page 177 of MiF: "Though their numbers are small, even with the thousands of new recruits thronging to them and pleading to be taught the way of the Cyber-Knights, they will become one of the greatest symbols of hope and an inspiration to everyone in the Americas."

Again, they like using the words, "All" and "Everyone" when describing the way people feel about the CKs...

Since this logically can't mean EVERYone (are they inspiring hope for Alistair Dunscon? For the raping Man-Eagles? For the Grim Reapers?) the 'one' in question must be the pleading 'new recruits' or some other segment of the population.

Here, also from MiF page 177, "The Cyber-Knights become leaders and figureheads of the resistance" note they are referring to fight against the demons. Notice they don't say, "The CS is the leaders of the fight against the demons" etc etc. Oh no, the so-called "Heroes of Humanity" don't even get an honorable mention. Who does? The real saviors of humanity. The Cyber-Knights.

"become leaders" doesn't make them "the" leaders. There is no singular leader here. Obviously the CKs are leaders of part of the resistance. This is discussing a separate resistance from the CS so obviously they won't be mentioned. The CS is an already-present resistance against demons, this is just mentioning a new one.

Basically, as unbelievable as it is, the only group in all of Rifts that is seen as heroes to everyone... From Chi-Town to the 'Burbs, from the NGR to England, from Africa to South America to Australia, embroiled in every conflict, part of every valiant effort, are the Cyber-Knights.

So they are known about in Australia? I'll have to give it another read (didn't go through everything, anyone know a page?) I've read the South America books more thoroughly and can't off-hand place a mention of them, although it's possible I'm not sure if a few isolated mentions of some venturing doesn there doesn't mean they're considered to be heroes to the Larhold or the Arkhons or something, both of whom are also people.

CWC page 212 states that he is evil, insane, and a megalomaniac. In fact he's called insane in a number of books. That is just the page number and book I recall off the top of my head. It also states that he seeks world domination.

Evil's established. Positively Diabolical. Anyone recall where Megalomania is classified as an insanity in the Palladium system? Kept looking for it in tables but turning up short. Even if we do IRL, this is a different world with super-intelligent dolphins so it may not be insanity there.

212 is a Spiny Ravager in my third printing, Karl's on 214, I get some bonus content? I do see megalomania mentioned twice but I'm not catching the word 'insane', can someone give further hints on where this is? Was it possibly taken out?

It does mention he has an obsession with control so I suppose that could fit under the 'obsession' category of insanities. Usually when it's to the point of Insanity they will list it formally though, like "Insanities: Obsession (Control)" and not informally as it is here though.

Karl Prosek, and his son, seek world domination. They can't dominate the world if the NGR remains. After the dust settles, if the CS is still there, barring some serious reforms, that means everyone else has to die or submit. We know that any humans who cannot integrate to the CS's way of thinking is killed as well. So, yeah, if it comes down to it, and the "aliens" have been dealt with, then the CS will turn on its allies. Heck, it even states that the CS will attack Free Quebec if they don't eventually return to the fold (they believe that they will in time).

They seek world domination by humans. Why are you assuming that when it says someone is pursuing world domination it has to be just by themselves? Karl realistically is going to know he's probably going to die of old age before the CS can take over the entire world, so they've got to be planning on a bigger scope.

The FQ has to return to the fold, they're being reckless by shunning psychic sensitives and making themselves vulnerable to magical influence. Who knows how much Lazlo has messed with them already?

If FQ would just do that, I don't think the Glitter Boy stuff would be as big of an issue.

Literacy is something the CS could safely phase back into wider circulation once mages are wiped off the planet and humanity is firmly in control of their lands and actions once more. Until then it needs to be regulated and restricted to the trusted.

[Molydeus]

Since this logically can't mean EVERYone (are they inspiring hope for Alistair Dunscon? For the raping Man-Eagles?

The raping man-eagles, getting warmed up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2UVnY6tuCA

Aside from the setup for me to show that video, which I appreciate, what you're doing right here is a lot of nitpicking. HWalsh isn't being vague, he's quoting source material being vague. He's not making grand statements about Cyber-Knights, he's quoting source material making grand statements. It's quite possible that other information spread throughout the books contradicts what HWalsh quoted, in which case it's not his place to defend that.

Really, it's up to the people writing the game to provide support for what they write. If CKs are loved by everyone, then they should provide solid reasons for that instead of just stating it, because people like you will just pick that apart endlessly.

It's fairly clear that the Cyber-Knights are intended to be the beloved heroic Mary Sues of the setting. Paladium is prone to declarative statements ("Cyber-Knights are loved by everyone!"), only to turn around later and contradict that with exceptions or not address those statements at all. Which is okay; dramatic statements make for drama, which is good for a dramatic setting. You don't want the books to read dry like a textbook, after all. The Cyber-Knights are just another example of this sort of aggrandizement.

I'm sure you can find canonical support for CKs to be widely loved and for them to not be so loved. (Kinda like the closet fascists on these forums will always argue the best possible interpretation of the Coalition.) Just go with the interpretation that you want and stop laying the burden of proof on the fans.

[HWalsh]

Since this logically can't mean EVERYone (are they inspiring hope for Alistair Dunscon? For the raping Man-Eagles?

The raping man-eagles, getting warmed up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2UVnY6tuCA

Aside from the setup for me to show that video, which I appreciate, what you're doing right here is a lot of nitpicking. HWalsh isn't being vague, he's quoting source material being vague. He's not making grand statements about Cyber-Knights, he's quoting source material making grand statements. It's quite possible that other information spread throughout the books contradicts what HWalsh quoted, in which case it's not his place to defend that.

If Axel wants to find statements to the contrary he's much welcome to do so. HWalsh, ie me, found word for word quotes from multiple different books.

I think they show it quite well though when you look at all the stuff printed about CKs.There is mention, in almost every book, about CKs or a group of CKs doing something heroic.

They save people and win against impossible odds all the time. They are accepting of people of all races and species. They routinely sacrifice their lives to save others.

Reid's Ranger's are CKs and they're the front line against the vampire kingdoms. They fought the Mechanoids. They were mentioned in the war against the 4 horsemen. There is a CK as the current Atlantis arena gladiator champion who's never bowed to his Spluggorth captors who always wins and gives hope to the people there.

There are CKs talked about having great heroism and valor in England. Rasheen the deebee hero of the NGR is a Cyber-Knight, who fought countless Gargoyles and saved untold numbers of people.

Even when they fought the CS, the greatest evil in North America, they showed honor and restraint. They spared many of their enemies lives and when the Sorcerer's Revenge happened it was the CKs who sacrifices themselves to protect the fleeing CS grunts.

The books love the Cyber-Knights.

Mary-Sue? Possibly. They get way more praise than anyone else.

I'm sure you can find canonical support for CKs to be widely loved and for them to not be so loved. (Kinda like the closet fascists on these forums will always argue the best possible interpretation of the Coalition.) Just go with the interpretation that you want and stop laying the burden of proof on the fans.

Oh... I wouldn't know anyone on the boards who always tries to paint the CS in a solely positive light... *cough*Axelmania*cough* Sorry, something in my throat...

[Axelmania]

what you're doing right here is a lot of nitpicking. HWalsh isn't being vague, he's quoting source material being vague. He's not making grand statements about Cyber-Knights, he's quoting source material making grand statements. It's quite possible that other information spread throughout the books contradicts what HWalsh quoted, in which case it's not his place to defend that.

In that case I'd like to quote this from Karl Prosek's entry in CWC (WB10p214 for me, 212 in some other printing)

"having won the hearts and the minds of the people 100 percent"

So yeah we could read that everyone loves the Cyber-Knights and everyone loves Karl Prosek due to open-ended "the people" statements, but realistically in both cases I think we should read this as "the people of an unidentified grouping".

For Karl I'm not really sure what that would mean. All CS citizens? Strong as support for him must be I have trouble believing there isn't a single citizen whose heart or mind isn't won over. Even if it's for a stupid reason like 'my wife isn't attracted to me because she is in love with the Emperor!"

Similar for the Cyber-Knights. Even if you limited this to people who the Cyber-knights have saved, there's bound to be some detractors who are jealous or suspicious of them.

These are the kind of statements which are just unrealistic to imagine, so unless someone wants to run a campaign where 100% of Earth loves Cyber-Knights and Karl Prosek simultaneously, you have to take both with a grain of salt.

There isn't really grounds for accepting one without the other. Although I suppose you could take either as being true at different points in time but not necessarily true at present. Maybe everyone loved Karl and the CKs pre-Siege and now both are only 75% beloved after having been involved in that bloodshed and evil atrocities being committed by members of both groups.

Really, it's up to the people writing the game to provide support for what they write. If CKs are loved by everyone, then they should provide solid reasons for that instead of just stating it, because people like you will just pick that apart endlessly.

People like me might also pick apart the 100% support for Karl statement too, is that a problem?

It's fairly clear that the Cyber-Knights are intended to be the beloved heroic Mary Sues of the setting.

Naw that's Erin Tarn CKs are more like force-users, initially it's primarily a bunch of good guys (like Jedis) but then a bunch go evil in taking sides over a war (Sir Reg or whatever long-haired dude apprentice of bearded Taloquin was) and then get turned onto a despoiler path. CKs are supposed to run a spectrum, whether we're talking Cyber or Cosmo.

Paladium is prone to declarative statements ("Cyber-Knights are loved by everyone!"), only to turn around later and contradict that with exceptions or not address those statements at all. Which is okay; dramatic statements make for drama, which is good for a dramatic setting. You don't want the books to read dry like a textbook, after all. The Cyber-Knights are just another example of this sort of aggrandizement.

I fully agree, same with Karl.

I'm sure you can find canonical support for CKs to be widely loved and for them to not be so loved. (Kinda like the closet fascists on these forums will always argue the best possible interpretation of the Coalition.) Just go with the interpretation that you want and stop laying the burden of proof on the fans.

The burden of proof must be put on a fan who is taking these statements as proof of the setting, it's entirely okay to bring up contradicting evidence when that is done. Erin Tarn is a person clearly who Karl hasn't won the heart and mind of (or has he? sometimes she doth protest too much...) so 'the people' can't be taken to mean 'all people everywhere' whenever it's used without a context.

If Axel wants to find statements to the contrary he's much welcome to do so. HWalsh, ie me, found word for word quotes from multiple different books.

I think they show it quite well though when you look at all the stuff printed about CKs.There is mention, in almost every book, about CKs or a group of CKs doing something heroic.

They save people and win against impossible odds all the time. They are accepting of people of all races and species. They routinely sacrifice their lives to save others.

Cyber-Knights do lots of heroic things, I agree. So do the CS. It's not 'lots of people see them as heroes' rhetoric I disagree with (this applies to both groups) but rather 'everyone' type stuff.

Better than finding statements to the contrary is I found basically equal-tier statements about Karl Prosek. So we accept everyone loves CandK (Coake and Karl) or accept that not everyone does and these were just dramatic statements.

Reid's Ranger's are CKs and they're the front line against the vampire kingdoms. They fought the Mechanoids. They were mentioned in the war against the 4 horsemen. There is a CK as the current Atlantis arena gladiator champion who's never bowed to his Spluggorth captors who always wins and gives hope to the people there.

CS also keeps the vampires at bay. Have they never fought a Mechanoid? CS supports the NGR who helped bomb Death's undead. Well-Fed is probably being backed by some intelligence, and I doubt he's the only courageous gladiator who gives hope to people.

There are CKs talked about having great heroism and valor in England. Rasheen the deebee hero of the NGR is a Cyber-Knight, who fought countless Gargoyles and saved untold numbers of people.

There are heroic Cyber-Knights and heroic CS soldiers. This isn't particularly related to our disagreement.

Even when they fought the CS, the greatest evil in North America, they showed honor and restraint. They spared many of their enemies lives and when the Sorcerer's Revenge happened it was the CKs who sacrifices themselves to protect the fleeing CS grunts.

The books love the Cyber-Knights.

Mary-Sue? Possibly. They get way more praise than anyone else.

I dunno, Tarn heaps a lot of praise on Plato if I remember... and even she admits being saved by the CS lots of times.

Oh... I wouldn't know anyone on the boards who always tries to paint the CS in a solely positive light... *cough*Axelmania*cough* Sorry, something in my throat...

Hey even I'll admit that guys like Chalk and Drogue went a little silly, but they don't reflect the entire CS.

I don't think I can paint anyone as solely positive but I think the CS is doing what they think is the best.

Karl's Rifts-style alignment seems more due to his D-Bee stances, as opposed to TMNT-style alignments for Doc Feral where evilness towards mutant animals isn't taken into account and it's rated based on their treatment towards humans. His lust for power and control is in human interest, the empire he builds doesn't just benefit him it benefits human re-establishment.