How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

guardiandashi wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:The CS is capable of producing injectable nanites that can heal people by tinkering with their insides.
Why wouldn't they be able to create a nano-plague that kills all non-human humanoids?
Or at least everything with DNA that's sufficiently different from humans?
I can't think of any good reasons... BUT that doesn't mean that there aren't any.
We know that the meta-game reason is because that kind of thing would destroy the setting.
In-game?
We can make up whatever answer we want, to serve as in-game sugar for this particular medicine.


I believe its covered in GURPS: robots, and or Reign of Steel where they have "Nano-D plagues" (Nano-Disassemblers) and while they are very nasty things to run into they also have a really nasty tendency to get out of control and start tearing apart things they shouldn't. So I kind of suspect there is a case of not wanting to let that particular "genie" out of the bottle as in many cases there is no real defense against rogue Nano-D.


If that's the sugar that helps the medicine go down for you, then go with it.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Axelmania »

Hives are subservient to their Queens. If they started attacking themselves, the Queens would figure out what was going on... so couldn't they just over-ride this by telling their hive to ignore scent and work by a different chain of command?

Plus I bet a Digger could just coat the bad pherimones in resin.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Shark_Force »

the pheromones are how they recognize their own hive. without them, how is the queen supposed to know that drone number 75,449,261 is from her hive? i mean, it's not like the queen memorizes the exact minor physical differences in every single member of the hive. she could maybe recognize her personal attendants, but no way is she going to be able to recognize every single member of the hive, that's why they have the pheromones in the first place.

it sounds like potentially an extremely devastating attack. the main problem is that they're going to also need something that removes the previous odor and continues to work... they need super-febreze :P
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Is there such a thing as a corrosive acidic vapour?
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

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ShadowLogan wrote:There are very few Tech sonic weapons in Rifts, with the pure Tech ones that come to mind are Japan's Banshee flying 'bot, SA2's Raptor PA, and maybe something in Underseas (Triax might have something, I know the Naut'yll have TW versions). There is an ultrasonic repellent somewhere (SB1o?) and maybe something similar in Triax2 (IIRC). So if you're looking for how Rifts handles Sonic weapons, that would be one place to start in terms of tech.

As far as blanket vulnerability, it may not be so straightforward IMHO. While the antenna make the bugs vulnerable, a near hit might be enough to "count" even if it wasn't a headshot (or antenna shot) and just a regular main body. The sonic boom from the Boomgun doesn't need to be targeting your ears directly to be effective, nor does the Wilk's blinders or a similar system on a SA2 'bot (the elephant Bot IIRC), or blindflash (spell), or Thunderclap (spell), etc. So there is some precedent. It might come down to GM call and such at this point.

Last night I looked a bit of this up concerning sonic tech-only weapons.

The Banshee 'bot and the Mecha-Lizard (Raptor PA in SA2) both have a "splash" radius, so in theory the Xiticix's antenna's would be effected. Both units are not not "infantry" scale weapons and likely similar systems would have to be mounted on (or built-in to) vehicles or other "heavy" platforms (PA/FCB included here). Power Armor/Man-size weapon that Triax uses doesn't have splash (it might it notes effects similar to a spell in the Ocean Magic that isn't there, unless some of the other magic is included that is labeled differently).

jaymz wrote:Is there such a thing as a corrosive acidic vapour?

Bionic Sourcebook Chemical spray for bionics (it isn't in RMB, must have been introduced later not sure when though)
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Ok what about just gassing the hives with corrosive acidic vapours? Use the machines or variations of the ones use to insert "volunteers" into hives from hoh.

Boring machines dropped by dht can dig to and into the hive then release the vapours.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

HWalsh wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:The thing with the chemicals seems like a decent thing, but pheromones aren't as easily synthisized as some might think. One would think if you could produce chemicals on mass like that, that the research might be better put into a better can of Raid. I.E. disturbing them and confusing them has value but wouldn't them dropping dead be better?


The CS can clone and create genetic modifications based on information from alien DNA.

Xitcitix Invasion pg. 89

I think they can reproduce pheromones.


By that logic they could have just created a insecticide that works and the war would be over in 5 minutes.

Oh wait.... :thwak:


Well we know Australia did. If the CS found out about it, I am pretty sure they could mass produce Xitcitix gas. That is one of the problems with the CS and a lot of these threats. Based on what we have seen them do, there is no explanation for why they can't do things which are much simpler on the grand scale. I mean, we can crack the human genome and create cloned human-level intelligent animals and other genetically engineered creatures... But we can't find an insecticide that works on what is a giant bug when we have their genetic makeup to work with?

That. Does. Not. Make. Sense.


Nope. I've already proven the nerve gas from Austrailia is no threat to the bugs. Shut you down really hard when it was pointed out that the bugs only needed to roll anything but a naturtal 1 to resist the gas, and even that was before factoring in the 'supernatural PE' which isn't firmly defined byt one aspect seems to give another +3 on save vs poisons roll which wouldm ake it 100% immune.

As for the 'Why can we do this with dogs and not with bugs"

Because dogs are earth creatures, and work the way we 'know' them to. the bugs are alien from another dimension and are supernatural creatures. Large parts of their "Thing" Isn't DNA. It's not even from this dimension and the supernatural aspect of it complicates stuff further. It edges it out of science into magic.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

HWalsh wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Some guys in Australia wiped out Xiticix? Page?

How does being able to reproduce pheromones mean you can reproduce an insecticide. Messaging chemicals aren't killer chemicals.


Australia has a nerve agent that specifically kills MDC beings. (Kills SDC beings too but...)


But is specifically almost useless or actually less than usless against Xits.

You need a 12 or better to save vs that nerve gas
defender wins in a tie.
Your average bug warrior has a +10 to save vs poisons.
So all they have to roll is 2-20 on a D20 to resist.

And that's if you don't count in the +3 to save vs supernatural PE, which would mean the bugs don't even have to roll.

Your point ins't a point when it doesn't actually hurt the target.

It's akin to saying "A BB rifle can kill a squirrel so we know BB's can take down a Rhino"

Mmmmm.. no.. not so much.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

jaymz wrote:Ok what about just gassing the hives with corrosive acidic vapours? Use the machines or variations of the ones use to insert "volunteers" into hives from hoh.

Boring machines dropped by dht can dig to and into the hive then release the vapours.


Hives are compartmentalized and multi tier. You'd get a room or two before they'd seal it off and come after you.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

jaymz wrote:Ok what about just gassing the hives with corrosive acidic vapours? Use the machines or variations of the ones use to insert "volunteers" into hives from hoh.

Boring machines dropped by dht can dig to and into the hive then release the vapours.

Might just be easier to use the boring machines to:
1. drill down deep enough to bring magma to the surface to flood the hives directly (or)
2. undercut the foundation of the hives so they collapse (and you might not even need the magma to do that)

Aren't real life boring machines slow diggers though?

If we use the Acid in the Bionic Chemical Spray. 1d4MD initial plus repeat damage for 1d4 melee rounds and a 10ft diameter area effect. You would need at least 15 doses IINM (and that assumes a max roll on a die each time IINM). There is no save (AFAIK), and no listed cost (in BSB, earlier appearance?).

Assuming that you could manufacture enough acid in bulk to saturate a Hive (let alone multiple hives that are required), and have a viable delivery method, you would need enough for multiple dosing (or improve the potency) you could in theory do it.

I really think there is not a good technological solution to dealing with the Bugs at this point (well maybe mass producing robot drones to overwhelm them in terms of numbers, but there might be "fallout" from anyone one power that attempts it), what might be needed is a super natural angle (and there are probably several).

Killer Cyborg wrote:The CS is capable of producing injectable nanites that can heal people by tinkering with their insides.
Why wouldn't they be able to create a nano-plague that kills all non-human humanoids?

Not according to WB8 on pg121: "The Black Market, Coalition States and most nations do NOT have the technology, resources or understanding to "knock-off" any sort of nano-technology. Only Triax or Naurni Enterprises could learn and develop nano-tech, but it will take even them 10 to 15 years of study and development to reach a stage equal to that currently held by the Republic of Japan." This under the GM note to the AT-AAD Anit-Armor Dissolver Missile/Grenade that uses tiny nano-bots to attack armor.

Are we sure though that the CS actually produces the equipment themselves and not some other manufacturer or pre-Rifts caches they use? I don't recall off hand where it says they have nano-technology explicitly (not saying it doesn't exist, just I can't recall anything at the moment). Then again their limit might be resource more than tech/understanding (though if Triax is behind Japan, and Triax is ahead of the CS...), but it does seem that the CS can not innovate nano-technology development given WB8.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

ShadowLogan wrote:
jaymz wrote:Ok what about just gassing the hives with corrosive acidic vapours? Use the machines or variations of the ones use to insert "volunteers" into hives from hoh.

Boring machines dropped by dht can dig to and into the hive then release the vapours.

Might just be easier to use the boring machines to:
1. drill down deep enough to bring magma to the surface to flood the hives directly (or)
2. undercut the foundation of the hives so they collapse (and you might not even need the magma to do that)

Aren't real life boring machines slow diggers though?

If we use the Acid in the Bionic Chemical Spray. 1d4MD initial plus repeat damage for 1d4 melee rounds and a 10ft diameter area effect. You would need at least 15 doses IINM (and that assumes a max roll on a die each time IINM). There is no save (AFAIK), and no listed cost (in BSB, earlier appearance?).

Assuming that you could manufacture enough acid in bulk to saturate a Hive (let alone multiple hives that are required), and have a viable delivery method, you would need enough for multiple dosing (or improve the potency) you could in theory do it.

I really think there is not a good technological solution to dealing with the Bugs at this point (well maybe mass producing robot drones to overwhelm them in terms of numbers, but there might be "fallout" from anyone one power that attempts it), what might be needed is a super natural angle (and there are probably several).

Killer Cyborg wrote:The CS is capable of producing injectable nanites that can heal people by tinkering with their insides.
Why wouldn't they be able to create a nano-plague that kills all non-human humanoids?

Not according to WB8 on pg121: "The Black Market, Coalition States and most nations do NOT have the technology, resources or understanding to "knock-off" any sort of nano-technology. Only Triax or Naurni Enterprises could learn and develop nano-tech, but it will take even them 10 to 15 years of study and development to reach a stage equal to that currently held by the Republic of Japan." This under the GM note to the AT-AAD Anit-Armor Dissolver Missile/Grenade that uses tiny nano-bots to attack armor.

Are we sure though that the CS actually produces the equipment themselves and not some other manufacturer or pre-Rifts caches they use? I don't recall off hand where it says they have nano-technology explicitly (not saying it doesn't exist, just I can't recall anything at the moment). Then again their limit might be resource more than tech/understanding (though if Triax is behind Japan, and Triax is ahead of the CS...), but it does seem that the CS can not innovate nano-technology development given WB8.


WB Japan also states in the same section:
Nano-technology, like the SAMAS and many other pre-Rifts technologies and secrets, exist only in the Republic of Japan and the city of Nagasaki in particular.

We know that it's not really true for the SAMAS--the CS have their own version, as do others. When they refer to "nano-technology" in this section, they might be referring to this specific kind of nanotech.
Or not.

I do agree that it would be reasonable for a GM to rule that the CS can make IRMSS kits (and the other nanotech that is presented), but that they're stuck using specific pre-Rifts designs.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
jaymz wrote:Ok what about just gassing the hives with corrosive acidic vapours? Use the machines or variations of the ones use to insert "volunteers" into hives from hoh.

Boring machines dropped by dht can dig to and into the hive then release the vapours.


Hives are compartmentalized and multi tier. You'd get a room or two before they'd seal it off and come after you.


thus why you use earth boring devices to get al sorts of parts of the hive at once.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

jaymz wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
jaymz wrote:Ok what about just gassing the hives with corrosive acidic vapours? Use the machines or variations of the ones use to insert "volunteers" into hives from hoh.

Boring machines dropped by dht can dig to and into the hive then release the vapours.


Hives are compartmentalized and multi tier. You'd get a room or two before they'd seal it off and come after you.


thus why you use earth boring devices to get al sorts of parts of the hive at once.


MDC tunnels and stuff and "Air dropped drilling machines (Able to bore through MDC materials) with built in acidic vapor distributors are not exactly common.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

actually the drilling/boring vehicles are in hoh...just not statted out. It is how the insert the "volunteers" so they are common enough to be thrown away as it is.....instead remote control them froma DHT into entrances instead of through walls. as fast as you can as deep as you can. once one is stopped it pops open with acidic vapour (possibly something more damaging than the borg one) while any others wollofing barrel on buy deeper. Maybe even lave them ejecting barrels along the way behind them that after a few second burst open.

Will kill all of them and wipe a hive? Not a frickin chance but it will certainly make coming up from the lower depths (which is only up to 200 feet or so down as per the xit book) a bad experience for them and at least whittle numbers down. Then you just watch for new entrances/exits to emerge and do it again.The acidic vapour will also have the secondary effect of damaging the walls to some degree and repeated exposure will also weaken them.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Mack »

If you can get a drilling/boring vehicle into the bottom of the hive, why bother with a vapor? Just fire off a nuke and be done with it.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

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resin walls would stop much of the blast....and all along they have indicated the CS REALLY does not want to use super nukes on north american soil....
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Shark_Force »

jaymz wrote:resin walls would stop much of the blast....and all along they have indicated the CS REALLY does not want to use super nukes on north american soil....


if there's a space for the blast to go, it'll follow the path. certainly, twisting paths will reduce the impact, but if you can get a nuke even remotely close to critical areas of the hive (the hatchery, nursery, or the rooms the queen is in) you could inflict some rather severe damage.

as to being reluctant to use super nukes, well, that probably won't last very long once they hear the magical words "a minimum of 1.2 BILLION xiticix".
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Shark_Force wrote:
jaymz wrote:resin walls would stop much of the blast....and all along they have indicated the CS REALLY does not want to use super nukes on north american soil....


if there's a space for the blast to go, it'll follow the path. certainly, twisting paths will reduce the impact, but if you can get a nuke even remotely close to critical areas of the hive (the hatchery, nursery, or the rooms the queen is in) you could inflict some rather severe damage.

as to being reluctant to use super nukes, well, that probably won't last very long once they hear the magical words "a minimum of 1.2 BILLION xiticix".




I do not disagree and I agree super nukes would do some serious damage...however it WILL be a weapon of last resort.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Killery Cyborg wrote:WB Japan also states in the same section:
Nano-technology, like the SAMAS and many other pre-Rifts technologies and secrets, exist only in the Republic of Japan and the city of Nagasaki in particular.

We know that it's not really true for the SAMAS--the CS have their own version, as do others. When they refer to "nano-technology" in this section, they might be referring to this specific kind of nanotech.
Or not.

I do agree that it would be reasonable for a GM to rule that the CS can make IRMSS kits (and the other nanotech that is presented), but that they're stuck using specific pre-Rifts designs.

As said we know some of the Japanese pre-Rifts tech is around in NA (SAMAS, Glitterboy) and elsewhere (Glitterboys in space, SA, and part of the New Navy, and introduced in Gernamny) so the part I omitted could be intended as a regional aspect (Japan) and not the entire world given the region's isolation. But what it does show is that the CS is not as advanced as you presented in canon when it comes to nano-tech since it is flatly stated they are on the "no knock-offs" of nanotech list and don't even warrant a mention on the "catchup list" like Triax and Naruni. Now if we were talking about someone not specifically identified on either list (like say Archie-3/Titan Robotics) it gets a bit more murky, but the CS is specifically identified.

Another issue to consider is that even if we assume the CS has medical nano-technology and can "retask" them to cause sickness/injury instead of healing it, you still need a delivery system. Which the CS might not be able to handle if the nano-machines can't be aerosolized (sp?) since it is unlikely you will be able to go up and inject all the Xiticix easily (and if you could probably other options are cheaper and quicker in dealing with them)

jaymz wrote:Will kill all of them and wipe a hive? Not a frickin chance but it will certainly make coming up from the lower depths (which is only up to 200 feet or so down as per the xit book) a bad experience for them and at least whittle numbers down. Then you just watch for new entrances/exits to emerge and do it again.The acidic vapour will also have the secondary effect of damaging the walls to some degree and repeated exposure will also weaken them.

Not exactly, as I mentioned before you need something more potent than the Bionic system or a large number of doses to make this viable I think to do any real harm to the hive in general. A target application toward the nursery(s) might be more lethal, but you have to find the nursery(s).

The problem with boring machines is they Xiticix could detect them and respond (they can detect approach upto 6 MILES away by vibration alone)

jaymz wrote:resin walls would stop much of the blast....and all along they have indicated the CS REALLY does not want to use super nukes on north american soil....

What are the parameters the CS would consider using the super nukes though. I agree they don't want to use them on NA soil, but what are the parameters for such in-action? Does the in-action only apply to air/surface explosions which would the CS allow underground detonation? Or is it a blanket ban except in dire emergencies?

Though killing off that many Xiticix that fast might not be the best idea given the massive release of PPE that would entail. It might not be Great Cataclysm level due to astronomical alignments, but it could still be bad potentially.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Honestly I think they would try other options similar to what have already been discussed here at a minimum before they get to that point.

Truthfully......I think the following cold be done...

Significant force of skelebots and air attacks to rile up as many into the air possible THEN drop a couple or 4 super nukes would wipe out a huge number of the various of the hive making marching into the hive significantly less dangerous...but that is my opinion not fact *shrugs* To me the hive lands are a lost cause unless they are wiped out utterly anyway so make unusable by anyone. It creates a nice northwestern buffer for the CS to see anything coming too to some degree.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

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ShadowLogan wrote:
jaymz wrote:Will kill all of them and wipe a hive? Not a frickin chance but it will certainly make coming up from the lower depths (which is only up to 200 feet or so down as per the xit book) a bad experience for them and at least whittle numbers down. Then you just watch for new entrances/exits to emerge and do it again.The acidic vapour will also have the secondary effect of damaging the walls to some degree and repeated exposure will also weaken them.

Not exactly, as I mentioned before you need something more potent than the Bionic system or a large number of doses to make this viable I think to do any real harm to the hive in general. A target application toward the nursery(s) might be more lethal, but you have to find the nursery(s).

The problem with boring machines is they Xiticix could detect them and respond (they can detect approach upto 6 MILES away by vibration alone)



I am going to guess you have not yet read Heroes of Humanity......the CS is already using "drilling" Apc's to insert "volunteer soldiers" into the hive. Granted they are not overly successful and do not get very far but they are getting further which each attempt and are doing it frequently enough that these machines are effectively throw away items to some extent.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Mack »

I don't remember if I read this in a book somewhere, or if it was online a decade ago. Nonetheless...

One concern with using nukes on the Xiticix (or any other large population) is that the massive, simultaneous, PPE release could trigger another cataclysmic event. All that PPE hitting the ley lines could have an untold effect. I could see the CS's Rifts Control Study Group being really, really, reluctant to endorse a "nuke the bugs" plan.

The actual result falls into the writer's fiat category as opposed to the setting's mechanics, but it's something to consider.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

jaymz wrote:actually the drilling/boring vehicles are in hoh...just not statted out. It is how the insert the "volunteers" so they are common enough to be thrown away as it is.....instead remote control them froma DHT into entrances instead of through walls. as fast as you can as deep as you can. once one is stopped it pops open with acidic vapour (possibly something more damaging than the borg one) while any others wollofing barrel on buy deeper. Maybe even lave them ejecting barrels along the way behind them that after a few second burst open.

Will kill all of them and wipe a hive? Not a frickin chance but it will certainly make coming up from the lower depths (which is only up to 200 feet or so down as per the xit book) a bad experience for them and at least whittle numbers down. Then you just watch for new entrances/exits to emerge and do it again.The acidic vapour will also have the secondary effect of damaging the walls to some degree and repeated exposure will also weaken them.



That's a good bit of misrepresentation. the stuff in hoh is not built to drill down through the earth and through the walls. They're drop boxes with ram prows.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

There's also the fact that the nukes in rifts aren't actually beefy enough to really do the job.

See we hear nuke and we hear "I WIN BUTTON"

In rifts the damage isn't THAT great. I mean it's more than a standard guy in armor is going to survive but not ungodly powerful like we think of them. Even a cruise missle only does 3D4X100 damage to a 1000 ft radius.

So even if you could get a cruise missile all the way to the bottom of a hive and detonate it (pretty much not going to happen), you'd probably kill a young queen or two, but not likely the entire royal caste. they're not all going to be in the same room and with a 1000 foot radius of the main blast, ehh. iffy. The elder queens have 500+ mdc so a cruise missile direct hit will... likely kill them but not for sure (Basically it's whim of the die at that point).

So taking out one hive you'd have to detonate multiple sub surface Big nukes in hope of doing it and even then how could you be sure. Remeber the queens have IQ's north of 210. As soon as a concentrated attack starts, they might secret a few young queens away in hidden chambers away from the main hive to ensure even if she falls the hive will live on. I mean.. i don't have an IQ of 210 and I could think of that in a few seconds.

Jaymz is right though, the notation under CS nukes (CS Navy pg 48) States that they're much like the US and wouldn't use them on native soil not even against their worst enemies. It would take a truely desperate act to see them employed. The only two options where they'd consider their use is full scale invasion from Atlantis, or to help the NGR if the Gargoyles are about to crush that country.

Heck they're not even going Nuclear during the Minion war and that's a fight for Humanity's very survival, as it's "on home turf"

They're not going to nuke things a couple of states away.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by HWalsh »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:There's also the fact that the nukes in rifts aren't actually beefy enough to really do the job.

See we hear nuke and we hear "I WIN BUTTON"

In rifts the damage isn't THAT great. I mean it's more than a standard guy in armor is going to survive but not ungodly powerful like we think of them. Even a cruise missle only does 3D4X100 damage to a 1000 ft radius.

So even if you could get a cruise missile all the way to the bottom of a hive and detonate it (pretty much not going to happen), you'd probably kill a young queen or two, but not likely the entire royal caste. they're not all going to be in the same room and with a 1000 foot radius of the main blast, ehh. iffy. The elder queens have 500+ mdc so a cruise missile direct hit will... likely kill them but not for sure (Basically it's whim of the die at that point).

So taking out one hive you'd have to detonate multiple sub surface Big nukes in hope of doing it and even then how could you be sure. Remeber the queens have IQ's north of 210. As soon as a concentrated attack starts, they might secret a few young queens away in hidden chambers away from the main hive to ensure even if she falls the hive will live on. I mean.. i don't have an IQ of 210 and I could think of that in a few seconds.

Jaymz is right though, the notation under CS nukes (CS Navy pg 48) States that they're much like the US and wouldn't use them on native soil not even against their worst enemies. It would take a truely desperate act to see them employed. The only two options where they'd consider their use is full scale invasion from Atlantis, or to help the NGR if the Gargoyles are about to crush that country.

Heck they're not even going Nuclear during the Minion war and that's a fight for Humanity's very survival, as it's "on home turf"

They're not going to nuke things a couple of states away.


Their hesitance to use nukes makes no sense since they're clean nukes. To be honest.

At 3d4x100 damage average damage would be 1100 MD, reduced by half for radius over direct hit and then again if the queen rolls with impact. So average is only going to be 275 MD to a rolling queen.

The main power of these is that they hit everything in a 1000 ft radius. That is over 6 football fields in diameter. So depending on how deep the hive goes a nuke could do great at exposing it if a bunker buster strat were used.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

HWalsh wrote:Their hesitance to use nukes makes no sense since they're clean nukes. To be honest.


I agree.
It's canon, but it makes no real sense.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Shark_Force »

not killing off all the bugs rapidly is almost guaranteed to have a catastrophic result. specifically, the bugs will multiply at an increasingly rapid pace and probably the only ones that will be able to even withstand them have names that start with "S" and end with "plynncryth".

so yeah, i get that there's some concern about the possibility of a catastrophic release of the PPE (clearly they need a few million psi-stalkers to eat it all) but at this point, *not* doing something about it in the near future will almost certainly end all human life on earth anyways. it's like when someone gets cancer... yes, the treatment is almost assuredly going to have a negative impact on the patient. there's even a chance that the treatment will, ultimately, kill or permanently damage them. but the alternative is that the patient dies, and some loss is better than total loss.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Thing is, that killing off all the bugs at once wouldn't "Actually" Cause "Coming of Rifts 2.0" It was done in conjunction with ultra rare planetary cosmic alignment.

Sort of like randomly shooting out of a window as some guy jumps off the roof to commit suicide and you accidentally hit him in the head killing him before he hits the ground.

You could shoot out the window millions and millions of times and never randomly hit the guy in the head, unless you just HAPPENED to do so in the milisecond he was falling past your window the one time he actually was up there and jumped.

Now... those on Rifts earth may or may not know that, but we as readers know that it was more than just 'mass death' it was "mass death in conjunction to the rare cosmic occurrence"
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

HWalsh wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:There's also the fact that the nukes in rifts aren't actually beefy enough to really do the job.

See we hear nuke and we hear "I WIN BUTTON"

In rifts the damage isn't THAT great. I mean it's more than a standard guy in armor is going to survive but not ungodly powerful like we think of them. Even a cruise missle only does 3D4X100 damage to a 1000 ft radius.

So even if you could get a cruise missile all the way to the bottom of a hive and detonate it (pretty much not going to happen), you'd probably kill a young queen or two, but not likely the entire royal caste. they're not all going to be in the same room and with a 1000 foot radius of the main blast, ehh. iffy. The elder queens have 500+ mdc so a cruise missile direct hit will... likely kill them but not for sure (Basically it's whim of the die at that point).

So taking out one hive you'd have to detonate multiple sub surface Big nukes in hope of doing it and even then how could you be sure. Remeber the queens have IQ's north of 210. As soon as a concentrated attack starts, they might secret a few young queens away in hidden chambers away from the main hive to ensure even if she falls the hive will live on. I mean.. i don't have an IQ of 210 and I could think of that in a few seconds.

Jaymz is right though, the notation under CS nukes (CS Navy pg 48) States that they're much like the US and wouldn't use them on native soil not even against their worst enemies. It would take a truely desperate act to see them employed. The only two options where they'd consider their use is full scale invasion from Atlantis, or to help the NGR if the Gargoyles are about to crush that country.

Heck they're not even going Nuclear during the Minion war and that's a fight for Humanity's very survival, as it's "on home turf"

They're not going to nuke things a couple of states away.


Their hesitance to use nukes makes no sense since they're clean nukes. To be honest.

At 3d4x100 damage average damage would be 1100 MD, reduced by half for radius over direct hit and then again if the queen rolls with impact. So average is only going to be 275 MD to a rolling queen.

The main power of these is that they hit everything in a 1000 ft radius. That is over 6 football fields in diameter. So depending on how deep the hive goes a nuke could do great at exposing it if a bunker buster strat were used.


Actually they are not as clean as you think. There is prompt radiation that goes out 6 miles.

And 3d4x100 average is 7-800 not 1100.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by HWalsh »

jaymz wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:There's also the fact that the nukes in rifts aren't actually beefy enough to really do the job.

See we hear nuke and we hear "I WIN BUTTON"

In rifts the damage isn't THAT great. I mean it's more than a standard guy in armor is going to survive but not ungodly powerful like we think of them. Even a cruise missle only does 3D4X100 damage to a 1000 ft radius.

So even if you could get a cruise missile all the way to the bottom of a hive and detonate it (pretty much not going to happen), you'd probably kill a young queen or two, but not likely the entire royal caste. they're not all going to be in the same room and with a 1000 foot radius of the main blast, ehh. iffy. The elder queens have 500+ mdc so a cruise missile direct hit will... likely kill them but not for sure (Basically it's whim of the die at that point).

So taking out one hive you'd have to detonate multiple sub surface Big nukes in hope of doing it and even then how could you be sure. Remeber the queens have IQ's north of 210. As soon as a concentrated attack starts, they might secret a few young queens away in hidden chambers away from the main hive to ensure even if she falls the hive will live on. I mean.. i don't have an IQ of 210 and I could think of that in a few seconds.

Jaymz is right though, the notation under CS nukes (CS Navy pg 48) States that they're much like the US and wouldn't use them on native soil not even against their worst enemies. It would take a truely desperate act to see them employed. The only two options where they'd consider their use is full scale invasion from Atlantis, or to help the NGR if the Gargoyles are about to crush that country.

Heck they're not even going Nuclear during the Minion war and that's a fight for Humanity's very survival, as it's "on home turf"

They're not going to nuke things a couple of states away.


Their hesitance to use nukes makes no sense since they're clean nukes. To be honest.

At 3d4x100 damage average damage would be 1100 MD, reduced by half for radius over direct hit and then again if the queen rolls with impact. So average is only going to be 275 MD to a rolling queen.

The main power of these is that they hit everything in a 1000 ft radius. That is over 6 football fields in diameter. So depending on how deep the hive goes a nuke could do great at exposing it if a bunker buster strat were used.


Actually they are not as clean as you think. There is prompt radiation that goes out 6 miles.

And 3d4x100 average is 7-800 not 1100.


You're right on the 3d4, I went with 3d6 for some reason. Regardless, it doesn't change that I pointed out that the queen could survive with a roll with impact.

I could have sworn it said that they didn't leave radiation behind.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

jaymz wrote: am going to guess you have not yet read Heroes of Humanity......the CS is already using "drilling" Apc's to insert "volunteer soldiers" into the hive. Granted they are not overly successful and do not get very far but they are getting further which each attempt and are doing it frequently enough that these machines are effectively throw away items to some extent.


No I haven't, it's low on the interest list at the moment.

Though if the CS is using this tactic (based on your statement and Pepsi Jedi's), it sounds like they are just throwing people in to the grider without a real plan hoping raw numbers will do the job.

Ideas to try (CS participation is not required):
-sterilize the Xiticix population (not quite sure how they could go about this in practice atm)
-Dimensional Shift the region(s) out (not something the CS can likely do, but other players in NA might be able to help in this respect), we know its possible though here the idea is a one way ticket, unlike the Japanese cities or Atlantis (or the TA city in SA1), etc.
-throw up a force field(s) to blockade them in (again CS doesn't have the technology, but Magic and/or non-CS players in NA might), unlikey to work INMHO but woth a look at
-it might be funny if it actually worked, but unleash DISCO at them (or insert music/dance/band/singer of choice instead of Disco)! Making them flee into any Rift they could find or something equally unlikely likely their heads all explode.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Thing is, that killing off all the bugs at once wouldn't "Actually" Cause "Coming of Rifts 2.0" It was done in conjunction with ultra rare planetary cosmic alignment.

I agree it isn't going to cause Rifts 2.0 due to the chance alignment, but the release of that much PPE could still be have consequences that might set the world back in terms of stability and could rev. up systems that have 'calmed down' or 'super charge' systems that are still going.

Also worth remembering that Xiticix IINM on average have higher PPE levels than Pre-Cat. humans, so you need less bugs to equal humans in terms of release. So you might not need the chance alignment if PPE release levels are high enough.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

@shadowlogan


Actually they even using humans for this tactic

Dbee and magic using captives basically used against their will in a manner of speaking.

They are "volunteers" that nothing cannon fodder to test bug responses etc.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

CS Navy (somewhere from p. 46-48) says this:
These are "clean" devices that produce minimal fallout (long-term radiation) but combine the destruction of a thermonuclear explosion with the enhanced radiation of a neutron bomb. What this means is that these nukes can utterly destroy enemy cities, bases and armies without causing long-term devastation of the environment, or so the CS believes.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

I havent double checked but I do not think it states how long the promp radiation left behind (as described in thecdamage listing of each), by the super nuke detonation, lasts.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:I havent double checked but I do not think it states how long the promp radiation left behind (as described in thecdamage listing of each), by the super nuke detonation, lasts.


Hm.
I'll have to look.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Axelmania »

What creatures out there could co-opt the Xiticix for their own use? Couldn't these be used as the basis for the 'Create Minion' deific power?
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Their hesitance to use nukes makes no sense since they're clean nukes. To be honest.


I agree.
It's canon, but it makes no real sense.

I am going to have to disagree with you.

Small scale nukes they use. IN tolken (sot 6) they used small nukes to target dragons. The ones they will not use are city buster nukes, the reason is likely fear of causing large scale elevated magic in ley lines resulting in increased number of rifts and other baddies.(They know about the great cataclysm and do not want to trigger another such event.)
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Their hesitance to use nukes makes no sense since they're clean nukes. To be honest.


I agree.
It's canon, but it makes no real sense.

I am going to have to disagree with you.

Small scale nukes they use. IN tolken (sot 6) they used small nukes to target dragons. The ones they will not use are city buster nukes, the reason is likely fear of causing large scale elevated magic in ley lines resulting in increased number of rifts and other baddies.(They know about the great cataclysm and do not want to trigger another such event.)


No.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

I would say their concern is how long the prompt radiation left behind by super nukes (as per cs navy sourcebook) would last since they plan to occupy the land as opposed to causing overactive ley lines and nexuses.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by eliakon »

Weeee a Canon duel :D
Am I right in inferring that there is both a canon statement that they don't use nukes AND a canon statement about them using nukes?
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Well chalks folly has a rogue general launch nukes at tolkeen (they get swallowed by the rift defense system) but generally speaking the cs will use normal nukes (normal lrms) but ate very hesitant to use super nukes (cs navy to ahawk missiles etc)
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Axelmania »

I remember statements against them using nukes in the earlier books but I don't know if they over-rode that later. Blue Lion did it specify nukes in SOT6 or just LRMs? The non-nuke LRMS can still be pretty decent. Considering their extra cost and lower speed I would think armor-piercing is always the best option for targetting single tough targets.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:I remember statements against them using nukes in the earlier books but I don't know if they over-rode that later. Blue Lion did it specify nukes in SOT6 or just LRMs? The non-nuke LRMS can still be pretty decent. Considering their extra cost and lower speed I would think armor-piercing is always the best option for targeting single tough targets.

If I recall right it specified nukes. It was in the write up of some the ancient dragons.

The CS nuke policy is found in CS Navy.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Axelmania »

I think someone brought this up before in another thread...

Page 216:
In the first days of the Siege, the CS launched a preemptive nuclear strike on the Twin Cities (Tolkeen and Freehold),

only to watch the ley lines surrounding the cities energize and swallow up the nukes before they could reach their target.

(Incidentally, nukes are forbidden by standard Coalition mission doctrine. Their use against Tolkeen was an unwarranted deviation
from that policy, and the officers responsible for the attack were executed for their transgression.)

When the "Hard Rain" bombardment commences, it uses non-nuclear warheads

(although the term "nuked" is still used to describe the destruction).

Later, many will insist that the CS used limited tactical nuclear missiles,

but it is not true and they did not need them.


Page 218 gives an example scenario where merely launching 8 long-range nuclear missiles is something an 'insane' Lieutenant plans to do this without authorization (he is merely an artillery commander and is substituting nukes for other less damaging armaments) and risks destroying have of Minnesota.

Page 22 says under "Other Places of Battle 6." does say that CS High Command is considering "limited use of tactical nukes". This doesn't actually conflict with page 216 though: High Command is considering them against Freehold but has not used tactical nukes so far, and hasn't needed to use them so far.

Page 102 mentions there was a "Coalition attempt" to launch "short-range tactical nuclear missiles" against Freehold but that they exploded and destroyed the mobile base before launch.

Regarding the range I think that would mean they were using medium or heavy (1000 miles) instead of the highest-damage multi-warhead (1800 mile) types.

So as best I can tell...
1) per 22 the CS High Command is considering limited tac-nukes
2) per 102 someone in the Coalition was attempting to launch one but got stopped (perhaps the guy on page 218?)
3) per 216 the CS has not actually used tactical nuclear missiles (albeit because an element tried and was stopped before they could be used)

I think I found a couple places that what you're talking about re the ancient dragon descriptions though.

Page 144 describes the Dragon King (I think all DKs are Ancients) named Rexus (Fire) and this:
It doesn't matter that they will claim tens of thousands of Coalition soldiers and lose the city only when half of it is bombarded with tactical nuclear missiles!

This doesn't sound like it's happened, more like it's discussing a hypothetical scenario for the only way the Dragon Kinds could lose the city. This links back to the discussion on page 22 which says they want to destroy half the city with tactical nuclear missiles.

Given that Freehold DID fall though, I guess we could assume this is what eventually happened? The next quote seems to support that...

Page 153 describes the Dragon Prince (I think just Adult, not Ancient) named Xevek (Zaayr Crystal) and this:
As fate would have it, the noble dragon escapes decimation from a volley of nuclear missiles that lays waste to half the city because he is away taking several hundred people to a ley line in Wisconsin.

So that seems to support, at bare minimum, that a volley of two LRMs (doing at least 2 x 2D6x10 MD using old-style damage, higher if using the higher-damage ones introduced in CWC, both models exist) are destined to hit the city.

The thing about 153 though is it is a continuation of 152 which says "Siege Notes: If there are heroes among the dragons who stay to fight for Freehold," meaning the entire thing is only a hypothetical scenario. The CS using tactical nukes is introduced as a possibility, not a guaranteed outcome. If the dragons fled then there wouldn't be reason to pollute the environment and waste precious missiles bombing the city with nukes.

Is it possible Aftermath might have information confirming whether or not nuclear missiles were used?
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

I just ignore everything about the Xiticix that came out after World Book: 23. Which means Holmes and company were turned into protein paste a long time ago in my world.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Axel - by and large "regular" nukes are not really an issue and are essentially clean (your standard mrm and lrm styles)

The nukes they are very wary to use are the super nukes in the cs navy sourcebook that do 2d4-3d4x100 md to 1000ft radius and then some as well as multimile radius of prompt radiation.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Axelmania »

There is a MRM called a multi-warhead not a nuclear multiwarhead so it may be somethhing else.

I'm not sure the three LRM nukes are clean... Think how little damage U-Rounds do and the problems thy cause.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:There is a MRM called a multi-warhead not a nuclear multiwarhead so it may be somethhing else.

I'm not sure the three LRM nukes are clean... Think how little damage U-Rounds do and the problems thy cause.

I do believe it was the CS navy that said all nukes where relatively clean with no fall out. U rounds you are scattering large chunks of radioactive material around the battle field likely in greater amount than 1 air burst nuke. If the radiative material is destroyed in the blast of the nuke and there is no fall out they can be less toxic to the environment than u rounds.

And you are in error on what 216 says it actually says the CS did use nuclear missiles untunefully. So they did use them.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Well a rogue general used them without sanction, orders, or direction to.
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Re: How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

Unread post by jaymz »

Cs navy also describes that super nukes do infact irradiate an area swveral miles across. It does not however say for how long.
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