How to handle the Xiticix (spun off from CS = good/bad)

[Killer Cyborg]

A nerve toxin I might add that does not say that it does not affect MDC beings...
Which actually supports my argument.

It doesn't comment one way or the other on whether or not it affects MDC beings.
We can guess, but that doesn't mean that our guess is necessarily accurate.
I've already listed one indication that conventional poisons don't affect MDC beings as a rule. It's not enough for us to say overall, but it's enough to show the doubt.
There's also a similar example with Neural Maces, which never originally commented one way or the other about their ability to affect MDC or supernatural beings. People made assumptions one way or the other, and eventually Palladium stated that they were ineffective against most enemies of that type.

Edit:
I'll also point out that the vast majority of poisons do not list what kind of poison they are, which means that any number of them could in fact be nerve agents.
Any of the examples that I listed that don't indicate whether or not the poison is a nerve agent MIGHT in fact be a nerve agent that doesn't affect MDC beings.

Hummm, I guess that means that MDC beings are immune to nerve agents

Keep hitting that strawman.
I never said that MDC beings are immune to nerve agents.
I'm pretty sure that nobody here has made that claim.

[jaymz]

Actually they specify to do only sdc not mdc at all.....the non "damaging" effects may affect mdc beings but they woukd not take any "damage". Thars kind of the point of listing the damage rating after all.

Really?
KC was claiming that they didn't do any 'damage' at all and only had an effect (Paralysis)
The one nerve gas in Rifts that I have seen with a damage rating DOES say it does damage to SDC and MDC beings though...
And since pretty much every poison so far listed has said explicitly what its damage is and if it does SCC or MDC AND that they actually make a point of calling out poisons that DONT affect MDC beings it would seem that there is no inherent immunity to poison just because your MDC.
Yeah, you get to ignore ones with only an SDC damage code and no other effects...
...but that doesn't seem to include nerve gas (any nerve gas).

You know if ypu are going to twist someones post you need to do a better job of it as my post was in response to you about kc's example od a north american nerve toxin that does only sdc damage so by extension does not actually damage mdc beings though as i said ot may affect them in a non damaging manner ehich was already by kc as well.

I was somewhat on your side in this but since you cant be bothered to actually understand what was written and you blatantly ignore things that factually contradict what you have written you are on your own. Keep digging that hole.

[Axelmania]

I wonder if a Sea Inquisitor launched the SDC nerve gas if that would change its damage to MD against Xiticix... seems to hinge on whether they're technically evil or supernatural.

I am sorry IQ stat times ten is NOT your IQ score. Since otherwise pretty much the majority of NPCs are "smarter than Einstein" and crap
Its a strawman of the worst order.

If that's what the book says then we have to go with it. We have to keep in mind that Rifts Earth is actually not our Earth. For all we know the Einstein of Rifts Earth had a higher IQ than in ours (perhaps 30/300) or he wasn't as intelligent in RE history as he was in our reality.

RE canonically has normal dolphins being super-smart and able to fire kinetic blasts from their mouth... as in EVERY dolphin... as in they could ALWAYS do this. This just isn't our Earth so we shouldn't get upset when things don't make sense in respect to what we know of our reality.

Another possibility, in regard to numbers on the Intelligence Quotient scale, is this could simply be explained by them using a different scale than us. Maybe humans are just as intelligent in Rifts as they are IRL in our world, but one historical difference is their numbers scale differently to reflect different intelligence extremes.

And the farcical claim that some how it is smarter than any human that has ever lived is a joke demonstrating that you are making up stuff to support your imagined narrative since in Palladium humans routinely get that smart.

Assuming that the 3D6 reflects the random chance of stats in all humans, then ignoring stuff like brain injuries or IQ bonuses from some classes, 1 in 7776 (6^5) or 0.0128600823045% of the population will have an IQ stat of 30. In a world population of 7 billion (which we have surpassed currently) this would mean over 900 000 people.

I don't know what stats we use for IQ, but a lot of people never get tested, and may apply their intelligence to menial labour instead of scientific breakthroughs, so we may never know just how many geniuses are really out there.

It appears that the Karl Prosek has an IQ of 190
Joseph Prosek is 170
General Cabot is 190
Colonel Lyboc is 180
Doctor Bradford is 270 Dang I guess that's impossible though right? I mean no human has ever been that smart so it can't be right?
Oh and the Angel of Death is 210

I think we can safely say that the idea that "IQ stat of 21 is smarter than any human that has ever lived" is BS

No, we can't safely say that, as it conflicts with canon. No game in Palladium books is set in our reality. Normal humans can be smarter in the Megaverse than in our reality.

Given that it's always been 3D6, it's always been that way. About the only change is the second bonus die in later games which changed the cap from 24 to 30.

You could also take the angle, if you wanted, that maybe humans were not always that way on Rifts Earth. Maybe they never used to get bonus dice and that's a recent thing that happened after the Coming of the Rifts.

"No human has ever been that smart" should never limit our imagination for how smart humans could become. With all the radiation and natural selection going on, is the smartest human ever existing in 2400 such an impossibility? Bradford has done more with DNA than we ever dreamed of so I have no problem thinking he's smarter than anyone who has ever lived by our time.

The real-world World Record for Deadlift was set this year, at 1,102 lbs. That guy would have a Palladium PS of 27.5.

Let's say 28 and assume he had a bit left in the hole

Although... top-tier powerlifters might be considered in the 'Physical Training' category of Heroes Unlimited and get the Superhuman PS super-ability... but I think HU is still a decade or two in our future.

And I will still say that the claim that some how we should just pretend that anything with an IQ stat of 21 is smarter than any human that ever lived... even though there are multiple humans in the game with that stat or better is BS.
It can be "how the system is" but it just means that you will have to move the definitions of what an IQ 100 and IQ 50 and IQ 200 etc are.

Ever lived.... in OUR reality. Humans in games who get a second bonus die get up to IQ 300, up to 240 in the old ones without a second bonus die.

Heck, with a Natural/Genius in Beyond the Supernatural you can build up into the 40s... there's a mutant human NPC in Transdimensional TMNT with an IQ stat of 87/870 (even though it should only be Hominids who can buy it multiple times, I figure it is via the 'buy attributes directly' thing from Adventures)

We just have to write off that Palladium games are not meant to represent the lesser potential of humans/dolphins, both have higher potentials in these games than IRL.

It also means that yeah, either lots of NPCs are smarter than Einstein, or Einsten could have a higher Intelligence Quotient in Rifts Earth's history compared to our history, which also lacked Chaing-Ku dragons and Nunnehi.

Sourcebook one Revised, Page 13: "Robotic Artificial Intelligence (A.I.) is found in sophisticated and advanced robots a bit beyond the current capibilities of the CS, Traix (Who are what 10-20 years ahead of the CS in tech?) and the rest of rifts earth"

CS Skelebots are listed a step down. "Robot drones or simple intelligences"

I'm not going to type out the entire entry, it's on the same page but they make a distinct point that the CS don't possess AI and it's robots are not AI.

This seems to be a bit of a semantic screw-up by Palladium though. "Simple Intelligence" is still intelligence...

So skelebots have a drone/simple intelligence... which is artificial, so it should still be classified as an AI.

We should probably use phrases like "Sentient AI" to describe things like ARCHIE and whatever other higher-than-Triax forces they're talking about.

Technically, saying Robotic AI is found in supra-Triax communities isn't the same as saying that Skele/Dyna bots are not AI, it's not an outright denial, more like an implication of denial, so let's use that to ignore that weird distinction and introduce sense-making language.

We don't have a quarter of the population as psionic either.

We can't say that for sure. There are a lot of powers which people could have and not be aware of. Maybe every single human on our world has 'See the Invisible' but there's nothing invisible around so we never notice this. Or maybe we all have 'Mind Block' but nothing ever assaults our minds so its potential use is utterly irrelevant.

While looking for more examples of poisons, btw, I just found this:

RGMG 110
The weapons and equipment from strange or isolated cultures like the Arkhons or distant lands like Japan, China, Russia, Africa, Australia, and even South America are all going to be super-rare and may NEVER be available to North America, and Europe. NEVER!

Reading this I imagine 'never' being shouted ominously like Pinkie does 'forever' in "Green Isn't Your Color"

Cool, so you don't have flamethrowers in your North America? (After all that is an Australian piece of equipment)
Oh, and we cant have boats, since the stats for those are found in south America...

I thought Juicer Uprising had flamethrowers and Underseas also had stats for boats.

"All going to be super-rare" applies to stuff ONLY printed in these other books, not stuff ALSO printed in them.

It's also not a guarantee they can't be found, it does say 'may' never.

The book citation is there on the cost. If you're trying to say a paint ball shell, that my kids shoot at each other for fun, at hte costs of penny's per paint ball, is what costs tens of thouands of dollars in Rifts... you're funny.

I want to take up this crusade!

Plastic manufacturing on Rifts Earth is not as widespread as it is today, and for the plants which can produce it, plastic is in high demand for making MDC armor and Wilk's guns and cannot be spared for silly games!

Paint balls are also extremely valuable for being able to shoot vampires from longer distances with greater accuracy and without giving away one's position as badly as shooting an uncontained stream of water.

[Natasha]

And common sense. All it really means is that 10 is average, like with every other attribute. If you played I.Q. 7 x 10, you're playing a clinically retarded character while RUE says you're kinda an underachiever.

10.5 is average

But by the book, or at least RUE which is the one I have nearby, average starts at 10. But I agree that I.Q. x 10 doesn't mean in Rifts what it means to us.

[Killer Cyborg]

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the ... in-histoy/
#1 William James Sidis IQ 250 – 300

[Pepsi Jedi]

And common sense. All it really means is that 10 is average, like with every other attribute. If you played I.Q. 7 x 10, you're playing a clinically retarded character while RUE says you're kinda an underachiever.

10.5 is average

But by the book, or at least RUE which is the one I have nearby, average starts at 10. But I agree that I.Q. x 10 doesn't mean in Rifts what it means to us.

Except that we're told that it does.

The existence of exceptional people doesn't break the curve. They're just on the far right end of the Bellcurve. If the CS have 10 people in the books with IQ's north of 160 that's all well and good. That's 10 people out of 25-45 million people. Hardly anything to get hyper about. There's likely just as many IQ 3 people in those millions of people as well.


(( and again. I don't think that the guys at Palladium really comprehend their numbers most of the time. They just choose "A big number" and stick it in, but reguardless we're told exactly how IQ translates from Palladium games to real world terms.))

[Pepsi Jedi]

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/the-10-highest-iqs-in-histoy/
#1 William James Sidis IQ 250 – 300

lol Pretty sure that was the list I found when I went looking to make my point previously.

[Killer Cyborg]

And common sense. All it really means is that 10 is average, like with every other attribute. If you played I.Q. 7 x 10, you're playing a clinically retarded character while RUE says you're kinda an underachiever.

10.5 is average

But by the book, or at least RUE which is the one I have nearby, average starts at 10. But I agree that I.Q. x 10 doesn't mean in Rifts what it means to us.

Except that we're told that it does.

The existence of exceptional people doesn't break the curve. They're just on the far right end of the Bellcurve. If the CS have 10 people in the books with IQ's north of 160 that's all well and good. That's 10 people out of 25-45 million people. Hardly anything to get hyper about. There's likely just as many IQ 3 people in those millions of people as well.


(( and again. I don't think that the guys at Palladium really comprehend their numbers most of the time. They just choose "A big number" and stick it in, but reguardless we're told exactly how IQ translates from Palladium games to real world terms.))

Agreed.
In this case, I think that they looked at 100(ish) being the average IQ, and 10 being the average rolled IQ, and went with it on the assumption that it was close enough.

[Killer Cyborg]

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/the-10-highest-iqs-in-histoy/
#1 William James Sidis IQ 250 – 300

lol Pretty sure that was the list I found when I went looking to make my point previously.

[Natasha]

And common sense. All it really means is that 10 is average, like with every other attribute. If you played I.Q. 7 x 10, you're playing a clinically retarded character while RUE says you're kinda an underachiever.

10.5 is average

But by the book, or at least RUE which is the one I have nearby, average starts at 10. But I agree that I.Q. x 10 doesn't mean in Rifts what it means to us.

Except that we're told that it does.

The existence of exceptional people doesn't break the curve. They're just on the far right end of the Bellcurve. If the CS have 10 people in the books with IQ's north of 160 that's all well and good. That's 10 people out of 25-45 million people. Hardly anything to get hyper about. There's likely just as many IQ 3 people in those millions of people as well.


(( and again. I don't think that the guys at Palladium really comprehend their numbers most of the time. They just choose "A big number" and stick it in, but reguardless we're told exactly how IQ translates from Palladium games to real world terms.))

We're told that it does. But it doesn't. I real life 85 to 115 is average but in Rifts it's 100 to 130. There are other differences. Any character with an I.Q. attribute can handle military service in the CS, even the characters who cannot pass basic training and are completely unable to learn new skills.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And common sense. All it really means is that 10 is average, like with every other attribute. If you played I.Q. 7 x 10, you're playing a clinically retarded character while RUE says you're kinda an underachiever.

10.5 is average

But by the book, or at least RUE which is the one I have nearby, average starts at 10. But I agree that I.Q. x 10 doesn't mean in Rifts what it means to us.

Except that we're told that it does.

The existence of exceptional people doesn't break the curve. They're just on the far right end of the Bellcurve. If the CS have 10 people in the books with IQ's north of 160 that's all well and good. That's 10 people out of 25-45 million people. Hardly anything to get hyper about. There's likely just as many IQ 3 people in those millions of people as well.


(( and again. I don't think that the guys at Palladium really comprehend their numbers most of the time. They just choose "A big number" and stick it in, but reguardless we're told exactly how IQ translates from Palladium games to real world terms.))

We're told that it does. But it doesn't. I real life 85 to 115 is average but in Rifts it's 100 to 130. There are other differences. Any character with an I.Q. attribute can handle military service in the CS, even the characters who cannot pass basic training and are completely unable to learn new skills.

The average in rifts is 10-10.5, Which is right about 100 for our average. You can stretch it out more if you want but half way between 85 and 115 is 100.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last bit.

[Natasha]

10.5 is average

But by the book, or at least RUE which is the one I have nearby, average starts at 10. But I agree that I.Q. x 10 doesn't mean in Rifts what it means to us.

Except that we're told that it does.

The existence of exceptional people doesn't break the curve. They're just on the far right end of the Bellcurve. If the CS have 10 people in the books with IQ's north of 160 that's all well and good. That's 10 people out of 25-45 million people. Hardly anything to get hyper about. There's likely just as many IQ 3 people in those millions of people as well.


(( and again. I don't think that the guys at Palladium really comprehend their numbers most of the time. They just choose "A big number" and stick it in, but reguardless we're told exactly how IQ translates from Palladium games to real world terms.))

We're told that it does. But it doesn't. I real life 85 to 115 is average but in Rifts it's 100 to 130. There are other differences. Any character with an I.Q. attribute can handle military service in the CS, even the characters who cannot pass basic training and are completely unable to learn new skills.

The average in rifts is 10-10.5, Which is right about 100 for our average. You can stretch it out more if you want but half way between 85 and 115 is 100.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last bit.

My copy of RUE says average is 10-13. Yours might say different. The last bit means that in Rifts an I.Q. of 3 does not work like I.Q. 30 does for us; it's so low it doesn't really exist (as far as I recall); it also means you cannot get all your O.C.C. skills because your diminished capacity but you can still pilot a SAMAS... but you can't be a SAMAS pilot class. In other words, it means that I.Q. x 10 does not work in Rifts like it does for us. That's probably why RUE speaks of age equivalence.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Except that we're told that it does.

The existence of exceptional people doesn't break the curve. They're just on the far right end of the Bellcurve. If the CS have 10 people in the books with IQ's north of 160 that's all well and good. That's 10 people out of 25-45 million people. Hardly anything to get hyper about. There's likely just as many IQ 3 people in those millions of people as well.


(( and again. I don't think that the guys at Palladium really comprehend their numbers most of the time. They just choose "A big number" and stick it in, but reguardless we're told exactly how IQ translates from Palladium games to real world terms.))

We're told that it does. But it doesn't. I real life 85 to 115 is average but in Rifts it's 100 to 130. There are other differences. Any character with an I.Q. attribute can handle military service in the CS, even the characters who cannot pass basic training and are completely unable to learn new skills.

The average in rifts is 10-10.5, Which is right about 100 for our average. You can stretch it out more if you want but half way between 85 and 115 is 100.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last bit.

My copy of RUE says average is 10-13. Yours might say different. The last bit means that in Rifts an I.Q. of 3 does not work like I.Q. 30 does for us; it's so low it doesn't really exist (as far as I recall); it also means you cannot get all your O.C.C. skills because your diminished capacity but you can still pilot a SAMAS... but you can't be a SAMAS pilot class. In other words, it means that I.Q. x 10 does not work in Rifts like it does for us. That's probably why RUE speaks of age equivalence.

Yes it says that but actually rolling dice proves it's not actually true.

As a point with the OOC, if you look in the RUE, it gives significant penalties for someone with an IQ of 30. They're not nearly significant enough, but it refutes your claim. It says they have the mind of a 5 year old child (Which to be honest isn't fair to the 5 year old.) Someone with an IQ of 30 couldn't tie his shoes, much less have an OCC even with limited number of skills. An IQ of 30 can't be left out side alone least they stare into the sun or wander into traffic.

The book says he(someone with an IQ of 30) can't learn to read or write, and is impossible to learn anything but the most rudimentary of skills mainly wp's domestic, physical and wilderness. that's after taking half the skills of any OCC off the top. So no he couldn't pilot a samus. He couldn't pilot anything. By the rules the best he could do would be swing a sword or build his muscles.

While the OCC of CS grunt don't have a minimum IQ, this is the realm of a GM stepping in. Even Forest gump had an IQ of what 70? and he wasn't handling Mega damage weaponry.

The GM has to have some common sense. You wouldn't let a literally retarded individual (And I mean that by definition) have a laser rifle that could take out a modern day main battle tank with one shot. What happens if he laughs and starts pointing it at everyone and just randomly pulling the trigger?

I'd say you need an IQ of at least 70 to even try for an OCC. Other wise you're not good enough to.. well. Learn the skills and stuff. That's not persecuting against the mentally retarded, it's just accepting limitations. Kevin might spin a yarn about retardation being a joy to play, but I think we all know different. At the very best it'll be a caricature. At worst highly insulting to anyone with real mental deficiencies.

[ShadowLogan]

A nerve toxin I might add that does not say that it does not affect MDC beings...
Which actually supports my argument.

It doesn't comment one way or the other on whether or not it affects MDC beings.
We can guess, but that doesn't mean that our guess is necessarily accurate.
I've already listed one indication that conventional poisons don't affect MDC beings as a rule. It's not enough for us to say overall, but it's enough to show the doubt.
There's also a similar example with Neural Maces, which never originally commented one way or the other about their ability to affect MDC or supernatural beings. People made assumptions one way or the other, and eventually Palladium stated that they were ineffective against most enemies of that type.

Edit:
I'll also point out that the vast majority of poisons do not list what kind of poison they are, which means that any number of them could in fact be nerve agents.
Any of the examples that I listed that don't indicate whether or not the poison is a nerve agent MIGHT in fact be a nerve agent that doesn't affect MDC beings.

Hummm, I guess that means that MDC beings are immune to nerve agents

Keep hitting that strawman.
I never said that MDC beings are immune to nerve agents.
I'm pretty sure that nobody here has made that claim.

What exactly is the difference between Supernatrual vs Regular Physical Endurance attribute? Because the 'bugs are SN PE IIRC, and that means they are immune to poisons and disease (IINM, I can't see to find a description easily on what SN PE confers, but if this is correct Nerve agents wouldn't work on them, though I admit I could be wrong because I can't seem to find the SN PE description easily).

[Axelmania]

I guess 3D6 might just mean that 10.5 is average for PCs but that 3D6 may not reflect the distribution of attributes for NPCs.

[Killer Cyborg]

What exactly is the difference between Supernatrual vs Regular Physical Endurance attribute? Because the 'bugs are SN PE IIRC, and that means they are immune to poisons and disease (IINM, I can't see to find a description easily on what SN PE confers, but if this is correct Nerve agents wouldn't work on them, though I admit I could be wrong because I can't seem to find the SN PE description easily).

Supernatural PE is never clearly defined.
Yes, the bugs have it: All physical attributes are considered supernatural, including PS."
So they have Supernatural PS, PP, PE, PE, PB, and SPD.

IIRC, the only thing that we know that Supernatural PE does (and we're not necessarily positive) is that it means the person does not fatigue.

[Natasha]

Yes it says that but actually rolling dice proves it's not actually true.

As a point with the OOC, if you look in the RUE, it gives significant penalties for someone with an IQ of 30. They're not nearly significant enough, but it refutes your claim. It says they have the mind of a 5 year old child (Which to be honest isn't fair to the 5 year old.) Someone with an IQ of 30 couldn't tie his shoes, much less have an OCC even with limited number of skills. An IQ of 30 can't be left out side alone least they stare into the sun or wander into traffic.

The book says he(someone with an IQ of 30) can't learn to read or write, and is impossible to learn anything but the most rudimentary of skills mainly wp's domestic, physical and wilderness. that's after taking half the skills of any OCC off the top. So no he couldn't pilot a samus. He couldn't pilot anything. By the rules the best he could do would be swing a sword or build his muscles.

While the OCC of CS grunt don't have a minimum IQ, this is the realm of a GM stepping in. Even Forest gump had an IQ of what 70? and he wasn't handling Mega damage weaponry.

The GM has to have some common sense. You wouldn't let a literally retarded individual (And I mean that by definition) have a laser rifle that could take out a modern day main battle tank with one shot. What happens if he laughs and starts pointing it at everyone and just randomly pulling the trigger?

I'd say you need an IQ of at least 70 to even try for an OCC. Other wise you're not good enough to.. well. Learn the skills and stuff. That's not persecuting against the mentally retarded, it's just accepting limitations. Kevin might spin a yarn about retardation being a joy to play, but I think we all know different. At the very best it'll be a caricature. At worst highly insulting to anyone with real mental deficiencies.

I was going off memory and forgot the lower I.Q.s further restrict the skills. But the essential point remains unchanged. I.Q. x 10 doesn't mean in Rifts what it means to us. That's why the GM has to have some common sense....

[Axelmania]

It could mean what it means to us, or it might not. There's no telling. Being able to be a CS grunt with IQ 3 doesn't mean that there are a heck of a lot of them... and the ones that do exist probably get killed off quicker, they're the meat shields form the burbs.

[Shark_Force]

What exactly is the difference between Supernatrual vs Regular Physical Endurance attribute? Because the 'bugs are SN PE IIRC, and that means they are immune to poisons and disease (IINM, I can't see to find a description easily on what SN PE confers, but if this is correct Nerve agents wouldn't work on them, though I admit I could be wrong because I can't seem to find the SN PE description easily).

Supernatural PE is never clearly defined.
Yes, the bugs have it: All physical attributes are considered supernatural, including PS."
So they have Supernatural PS, PP, PE, PE, PB, and SPD.

IIRC, the only thing that we know that Supernatural PE does (and we're not necessarily positive) is that it means the person does not fatigue.

regarding supernatural PE, i found this old thread which may be of some interest.

i would go so far as to say that it definitely does not make you immune to poison inherently, considering not one of the listed creatures is given any such thing and some of them are explicitly only given a bonus to save against poison.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yes it says that but actually rolling dice proves it's not actually true.

As a point with the OOC, if you look in the RUE, it gives significant penalties for someone with an IQ of 30. They're not nearly significant enough, but it refutes your claim. It says they have the mind of a 5 year old child (Which to be honest isn't fair to the 5 year old.) Someone with an IQ of 30 couldn't tie his shoes, much less have an OCC even with limited number of skills. An IQ of 30 can't be left out side alone least they stare into the sun or wander into traffic.

The book says he(someone with an IQ of 30) can't learn to read or write, and is impossible to learn anything but the most rudimentary of skills mainly wp's domestic, physical and wilderness. that's after taking half the skills of any OCC off the top. So no he couldn't pilot a samus. He couldn't pilot anything. By the rules the best he could do would be swing a sword or build his muscles.

While the OCC of CS grunt don't have a minimum IQ, this is the realm of a GM stepping in. Even Forest gump had an IQ of what 70? and he wasn't handling Mega damage weaponry.

The GM has to have some common sense. You wouldn't let a literally retarded individual (And I mean that by definition) have a laser rifle that could take out a modern day main battle tank with one shot. What happens if he laughs and starts pointing it at everyone and just randomly pulling the trigger?

I'd say you need an IQ of at least 70 to even try for an OCC. Other wise you're not good enough to.. well. Learn the skills and stuff. That's not persecuting against the mentally retarded, it's just accepting limitations. Kevin might spin a yarn about retardation being a joy to play, but I think we all know different. At the very best it'll be a caricature. At worst highly insulting to anyone with real mental deficiencies.

I was going off memory and forgot the lower I.Q.s further restrict the skills. But the essential point remains unchanged. I.Q. x 10 doesn't mean in Rifts what it means to us. That's why the GM has to have some common sense....

I had to look it up myself. As I'd never actually play a person that was mentally disabled of that nature, it surely hassn't come up much.


As for needing a GM with common sense. They're certainly desired, yet, sadly, seldom common.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It could mean what it means to us, or it might not. There's no telling. Being able to be a CS grunt with IQ 3 doesn't mean that there are a heck of a lot of them... and the ones that do exist probably get killed off quicker, they're the meat shields form the burbs.

you can't learn the skills nessitated to be a grunt.
Military Etiquette
Hovorcraft
tank/APC
Radio Basic
Robot combat basic
sensory equipment
Weapon systems
Energy Rifle
Energy Pistol
Hand to hand expert.

All they could learn would be
Body building
Climbing (But not repelling)
Running
And one ancient wp

That's not going to get them through basic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I noticed the thing about Supernatural PE when I was looking at the bugs stats for how they'd deal with the nerve toxin. Now I only looked in a hand full of books but couldn't find it firmly defined either.

If it does give the +3 to resist poisons and stuff then bugs would be totally immune to nerve gas (And most poisons at that.)

The nerve toxin requires a save vs poison 12. Bugs have between +9and +10 to saves already. Add on anther +3 and they'll have +12 and +13.. and defender wins in a tie, so they wouldn't even need to roll. Their base save exceeds the needed plateau.

[Axelmania]

Perhaps OCC skills are an exception to the normal restrictions for IQ learning skills.

Otherwise... shouldn't Ultimate have taken these into account and imposed IQ restrictions on the OCCs?

[jaymz]

You would think so but pb is not exactly known for internal consistecy. Quite the opposite in fact.

[Axelmania]

I'd still let them have the OCC, just say they lost the skills they lack the IQ to retain. Hand-wave it as the CS having some kind of temporary IQ-boosting measure they can use on the soldiers long enough to teach them the skills but then the measure wears off and the skills are forgotten.

Kind of like how you could lose the skills if suffering brain damage to lower IQ.

[flatline]

One of our house rules was no IQs less than 8.

Too many bad experiences with dumb characters.

--flatline

[Axelmania]

Maybe if anyone rolls a single-digit IQ they need to spend 10 Bio-E to buy 10 IQ and take appropriate penalties from size level to pay for it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Perhaps OCC skills are an exception to the normal restrictions for IQ learning skills.

Otherwise... shouldn't Ultimate have taken these into account and imposed IQ restrictions on the OCCs?

They're not because it talks about taking away OCC skills as well.

I think the IQ thing was written firmly after the OCCs were created but if you look at it, they stack.

You might not have a minimum IQ to be a CS grunt, but if you can't learn any of the skills but sword, running and climbing, then you're clearly no grunt and thus an't really take the OCC.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'd still let them have the OCC, just say they lost the skills they lack the IQ to retain. Hand-wave it as the CS having some kind of temporary IQ-boosting measure they can use on the soldiers long enough to teach them the skills but then the measure wears off and the skills are forgotten.

Kind of like how you could lose the skills if suffering brain damage to lower IQ.

Wouldn't it just be infinitely easier to say "You cant even remember your name.... we're not handing you a mega damage laser rifle. Go home and stare at the sun, there" Not that the person with an IQ of 30 would really comprehend the concept of a laser rifle or have any idea how to get home.

Again. GM has to have some common sense.

Just like IQ's above 160 or so are hard to test, because the IQ is 'beyond the average person's ability to qualify" IQ's below 50 or so are the same. The lower IQ's are hard to qualify because it would be almost impossible for them to take a test. One would have to be 'administered' to them and even then their ability to comprehend what they're being asked is so severely impaired. So the test is going to be a 'best guess' of what the tester feels the person understood.

An IQ of 50 is "Put a helmet on them, and constantly 100% supervision" Sort of thing. An IQ of 30... likely wouldn't be able to feed themselves or even understand clothes.

Kevin's "Playing someone with severe mental retardation can be a joy to play!" Aside. It's nothing that COULD be played. My 20 month old can pick out members of the family, can tell all the cats in the house. Knows what certain toys are, etc. This is beyond someone with an IQ of 30. At the very best they'd be able to dimly recognize their primary caregiver as 'not a stranger', beyond that they are living in a world of sensory confusion. Pretty colors and stuff would likely please them but just as likely scare them if unexpected. You couldn't even 'potty train' someone with an IQ of 30.....

They're NOT going to intake someone like that into an army, much less one where if you pull the trigger on the gun a the wrong time a basket ball sized hole could go through your entire platoon... and travel for 2000 feet after that vaporizing everything else in the way.

[Pepsi Jedi]

One of our house rules was no IQs less than 8.

Too many bad experiences with dumb characters.

--flatline

Hey it's a week of surprises! I actually agree with Flatline here.

Firm house rule of ours. "No IQ's less than 8".

[jaymz]

I would say minimum 7 but i am board with the idea too

[Axelmania]

If there is no IQ requirement for an OCC but an IQ requirement for OCC skills, I would only take that to mean they can still be the OCC but don't learn the skills.

Technically you don't need to know all the OCC skills to be the OCC. Someone could mind-wipe your ability to understand a certain language, for example, and that language could be a starting OCC skill, but that would not make you no longer of the OCC.

Native Americans are a good example of this, they are allowed to alter their starting OCC Skills to suit their anti-technology stances, even though a technology skill like Radio: Basic is a starting skill.

The starting skills of a Grunt are just the training the CS provides, not necessarily the skills they require for you to serve.

As mentioned elsewhere, an IQ of 3/30 can mean something different on Rifts Earth than it does in real life, we don't know if the traits they match to certain numbers match the traits we apply to those numbers.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This isn't that sort of thing Axe. This is literally you' can't remember your own name or how to feed yourself or not to crap your pants, territory.

People keep going "It could mean something different"

It could, if it wasn't defined.

It was. Clearly.. in every book that has the 8 attributes in it, it's defined the same way. This isn't a one time slip that can be chalked up to Palladium's lack of editing. It's in every book that has the stats defined. For decades. We do know what it means as we've been told a dozen times exactly what it means.

[jaymz]

To add based on what rue has to say on it as well....no way as a gm do i let them pick any occ that does not learn skill instinctively like mystics instinctively "learn" new spells. The penalty is too great. How the heck do tgey serve as a grint when they cant use modern weapons? Flagbearer?

[eliakon]

This isn't that sort of thing Axe. This is literally you' can't remember your own name or how to feed yourself or not to crap your pants, territory.

People keep going "It could mean something different"

It could, if it wasn't defined.

It was. Clearly.. in every book that has the 8 attributes in it, it's defined the same way. This isn't a one time slip that can be chalked up to Palladium's lack of editing. It's in every book that has the stats defined. For decades. We do know what it means as we've been told a dozen times exactly what it means.

What we end up is the issue that while we "know" that IQ is statx10...
what we do NOT know is what that actually means, as it seems that what the IQ score means does something different than in our world...
Which is great, we already know that the PU and RL have differences on other areas, it seems that this ends up being one of them.

We know this because what IQ 30 is in our world and what IQ 30 are in the game world... and the effects are different.
We also know what IQ 150 in our world is and what IQ 150 in Palladium, and once again they are different.

Thus we end up with a "same name, different results" type situation.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not really. An iq in our world of 150 is high but not genius level.

And IQ of 30 is severely mentally disabled. IN palladium it is too. Implying the only thing the character can learn are things like running or lifting heavy things, or swinging a stick at someone.

Now the penalties aren't as severe as I would make them, but this isn't really a 'fault' of the system as much as it's a lack of understanding by the creator. They're still represented as they would be in our world.

People are trying to imply that what we're told, over and over and over and over again isn't actually what we're told. But it is. An IQ of 30 isn't presented as a genius. It's presented as someone that can't have but a very very small selection of skills and even those are reduced from the usual number.

High IQ's give bonuses. Just like high stats of any sort.

I do not think it's a perfect system. Even reading Kevin's explanations of playing someone with an IQ under 70 shows that. he seems to think it'll be awesome fun to do. In reality we know better, but that's writer bias. That doesn't change the fact that as written we're told exactly what the IQ's are.

Do I think the writers take this into account every time they stat out a NPC NO!!! I don't. lol the palladium writers are notorious for 'Pick a big number and plug it in" with out really understanding large numbers.

Now one could argue that 25/250 isn't a large number... (Compared to 9,000,000 CS combat troops) but when you're talking about IQ's it clearly is. They just don't understand the number they're tossing down on the page. It's sort of like there's two completely different representations of average life spans and stuff in Rifts, because who ever wrote the second one (Clemmons? I foroget) Clearly had either 1) Never read or 2) forgot that it'd been covered, _AT LENGTH_ In a previous book.

[eliakon]

I think we can pretty safely say that the definitions are totally different
To start with IQ test scores as low as 30-40 are not even able to be generated with many tests, they zone out at that point.
Then we look at the fact that what the game says that a person of 30 can do and what a person that zeroes out a real life test can do and note that there are wild differences.

It gets even more problematic at the top, as people routinely generate IQ scores that again break the system...
A good example is that the statistical break down of all people with between a 130 and a 169 is ~4.43%... when somewhere around 10%+ of Rifts humans have IQ 170 or above...(All rolls of 16, 17, and 18 on 3d6 will get an IQ17 or above...)

Basically, it seems that the deviations from the norm in the IQ score calculations in RU are different than the ones used in RL

[ShadowLogan]

getting back on topic.

What about attacking the Xiticix chemical sensing abilities? Use their own chemical scents against them by, either by neutralizing the agent (so it can't detect if someone nearby send of "Chemical Alarm" for ex). I'm thinking more specifically of eliminating "Colony ID" scent combined with another scent to get them in a tizzy (or a custom scent)

It is also worth noting that the Xiticix are vulnerable to sonic based weapons (they do an extra die of damage) WB23 pg37 (bottom left column under bolded Vulnerability) and methods of attack (CS uses White Noise generators). Unfortunately there are very few sonic weapons in NA/Rifts-Earth (as published), so it would require some time and investment to develop and produce in NA by all indications.

[Killer Cyborg]

getting back on topic.

What about attacking the Xiticix chemical sensing abilities? Use their own chemical scents against them by, either by neutralizing the agent (so it can't detect if someone nearby send of "Chemical Alarm" for ex). I'm thinking more specifically of eliminating "Colony ID" scent combined with another scent to get them in a tizzy (or a custom scent)

It is also worth noting that the Xiticix are vulnerable to sonic based weapons (they do an extra die of damage) WB23 pg37 (bottom left column under bolded Vulnerability) and methods of attack (CS uses White Noise generators). Unfortunately there are very few sonic weapons in NA/Rifts-Earth (as published), so it would require some time and investment to develop and produce in NA by all indications.

Good ideas.

If the CS could manufature the right chemicals on a large enough scale, they could really mess the Xiticix up.

And they should certainly put R&D into sonic weapons. I've always thought there should be more of those.

[Axelmania]

Pepsi all we know about low IQ is the low attribute penalties introduced in RUE.

We don't actually know if 30 as measured in Rifts Earth describes the same competency level as 30 as measured in our Earth.

[Pepsi Jedi]

getting back on topic.

What about attacking the Xiticix chemical sensing abilities? Use their own chemical scents against them by, either by neutralizing the agent (so it can't detect if someone nearby send of "Chemical Alarm" for ex). I'm thinking more specifically of eliminating "Colony ID" scent combined with another scent to get them in a tizzy (or a custom scent)

It is also worth noting that the Xiticix are vulnerable to sonic based weapons (they do an extra die of damage) WB23 pg37 (bottom left column under bolded Vulnerability) and methods of attack (CS uses White Noise generators). Unfortunately there are very few sonic weapons in NA/Rifts-Earth (as published), so it would require some time and investment to develop and produce in NA by all indications.

Good ideas.

If the CS could manufature the right chemicals on a large enough scale, they could really mess the Xiticix up.

And they should certainly put R&D into sonic weapons. I've always thought there should be more of those.

The thing with the chemicals seems like a decent thing, but pheromones aren't as easily synthisized as some might think. One would think if you could produce chemicals on mass like that, that the research might be better put into a better can of Raid. I.E. disturbing them and confusing them has value but wouldn't them dropping dead be better?

Then it likely circles back around to their VERY HIGH savs vs poisons and what not. 9 or 10 off the top to save vs poisons with a possible +3 if you count that as supernatural PE's bonus

Sonic weapons could be neat. Not sure about how rifts handles range and penetration but... in theory could be a thing. Good catch.

*Edit: Opened the book. Xit's aren't blanket vulnerable to sonic weapons. Their -antennae- are vulnerable to them. I.E. if you target the antennae, big sensory organs with the sonic weapons, you get the added die of damage.

One on one. Not a bad tactic. When there's 500,000 of them rushing you all at once, either in a swarm in the air or boiling up out of tunnels and all around you, those tiny (In relation) sensory organs are going to be a female dog to hit in pitched combat.

[HWalsh]

The thing with the chemicals seems like a decent thing, but pheromones aren't as easily synthisized as some might think. One would think if you could produce chemicals on mass like that, that the research might be better put into a better can of Raid. I.E. disturbing them and confusing them has value but wouldn't them dropping dead be better?

The CS can clone and create genetic modifications based on information from alien DNA.

Xitcitix Invasion pg. 89

I think they can reproduce pheromones.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The thing with the chemicals seems like a decent thing, but pheromones aren't as easily synthisized as some might think. One would think if you could produce chemicals on mass like that, that the research might be better put into a better can of Raid. I.E. disturbing them and confusing them has value but wouldn't them dropping dead be better?

The CS can clone and create genetic modifications based on information from alien DNA.

Xitcitix Invasion pg. 89

I think they can reproduce pheromones.

By that logic they could have just created a insecticide that works and the war would be over in 5 minutes.

Oh wait....

[HWalsh]

The thing with the chemicals seems like a decent thing, but pheromones aren't as easily synthisized as some might think. One would think if you could produce chemicals on mass like that, that the research might be better put into a better can of Raid. I.E. disturbing them and confusing them has value but wouldn't them dropping dead be better?

The CS can clone and create genetic modifications based on information from alien DNA.

Xitcitix Invasion pg. 89

I think they can reproduce pheromones.

By that logic they could have just created a insecticide that works and the war would be over in 5 minutes.

Oh wait....

Well we know Australia did. If the CS found out about it, I am pretty sure they could mass produce Xitcitix gas. That is one of the problems with the CS and a lot of these threats. Based on what we have seen them do, there is no explanation for why they can't do things which are much simpler on the grand scale. I mean, we can crack the human genome and create cloned human-level intelligent animals and other genetically engineered creatures... But we can't find an insecticide that works on what is a giant bug when we have their genetic makeup to work with?

That. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

[Axelmania]

Some guys in Australia wiped out Xiticix? Page?

How does being able to reproduce pheromones mean you can reproduce an insecticide. Messaging chemicals aren't killer chemicals.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well we know Australia did. If the CS found out about it, I am pretty sure they could mass produce Xitcitix gas. That is one of the problems with the CS and a lot of these threats. Based on what we have seen them do, there is no explanation for why they can't do things which are much simpler on the grand scale. I mean, we can crack the human genome and create cloned human-level intelligent animals and other genetically engineered creatures... But we can't find an insecticide that works on what is a giant bug when we have their genetic makeup to work with?

That. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

First and foremost, you are quite correct; a LOT of the setting doesn't make sense.
That's true of most sci-fi settings, as well as most fantasy settings... and Rifts is both.

Secondly, Xiticix are supernatural creatures.
That right there might make their anatomical nature so drastically different--at least on a micro level--that we'd have trouble analyzing them. They might well not function in such a way that designer poisons could be more difficult than expected.

Third, you don't even have to go to designer poisons if you're looking for questions (although there's no reason not to ponder that situation).
The CS is capable of producing injectable nanites that can heal people by tinkering with their insides.
Why wouldn't they be able to create a nano-plague that kills all non-human humanoids?
Or at least everything with DNA that's sufficiently different from humans?
I can't think of any good reasons... BUT that doesn't mean that there aren't any.
We know that the meta-game reason is because that kind of thing would destroy the setting.
In-game?
We can make up whatever answer we want, to serve as in-game sugar for this particular medicine.

I mean... we're talking about how it doesn't make sense that the futuristic Nazis that rule over post-apocalypse, demon-infested North America can't seem to make a poison that'll kill all the psychic flying humanoid bug-men with TK rifles.

Sundance Kid: I can't swim.
Butch Cassidy: Are you crazy? The fall will probably kill you.

[ShadowLogan]

getting back on topic.

What about attacking the Xiticix chemical sensing abilities? Use their own chemical scents against them by, either by neutralizing the agent (so it can't detect if someone nearby send of "Chemical Alarm" for ex). I'm thinking more specifically of eliminating "Colony ID" scent combined with another scent to get them in a tizzy (or a custom scent)

It is also worth noting that the Xiticix are vulnerable to sonic based weapons (they do an extra die of damage) WB23 pg37 (bottom left column under bolded Vulnerability) and methods of attack (CS uses White Noise generators). Unfortunately there are very few sonic weapons in NA/Rifts-Earth (as published), so it would require some time and investment to develop and produce in NA by all indications.

Good ideas.

If the CS could manufature the right chemicals on a large enough scale, they could really mess the Xiticix up.

And they should certainly put R&D into sonic weapons. I've always thought there should be more of those.

The thing with the chemicals seems like a decent thing, but pheromones aren't as easily synthisized as some might think. One would think if you could produce chemicals on mass like that, that the research might be better put into a better can of Raid. I.E. disturbing them and confusing them has value but wouldn't them dropping dead be better?

Then it likely circles back around to their VERY HIGH savs vs poisons and what not. 9 or 10 off the top to save vs poisons with a possible +3 if you count that as supernatural PE's bonus

Sonic weapons could be neat. Not sure about how rifts handles range and penetration but... in theory could be a thing. Good catch.

*Edit: Opened the book. Xit's aren't blanket vulnerable to sonic weapons. Their -antennae- are vulnerable to them. I.E. if you target the antennae, big sensory organs with the sonic weapons, you get the added die of damage.

One on one. Not a bad tactic. When there's 500,000 of them rushing you all at once, either in a swarm in the air or boiling up out of tunnels and all around you, those tiny (In relation) sensory organs are going to be a female dog to hit in pitched combat.

Don't misunderstand me when it comes to the chemical scents. I have not worked it out completely, I was using something as a quick example. If you can mess with the Xiticix's chemical sensing abilities you could in theory make hive members not look like hive members, which could turn a Hive against itself. It has the advantage though of not being a poison agent negating the entire issue of their PE and save bonuses) and tricking their own senses.

There are very few Tech sonic weapons in Rifts, with the pure Tech ones that come to mind are Japan's Banshee flying 'bot, SA2's Raptor PA, and maybe something in Underseas (Triax might have something, I know the Naut'yll have TW versions). There is an ultrasonic repellent somewhere (SB1o?) and maybe something similar in Triax2 (IIRC). So if you're looking for how Rifts handles Sonic weapons, that would be one place to start in terms of tech.

As far as blanket vulnerability, it may not be so straightforward IMHO. While the antenna make the bugs vulnerable, a near hit might be enough to "count" even if it wasn't a headshot (or antenna shot) and just a regular main body. The sonic boom from the Boomgun doesn't need to be targeting your ears directly to be effective, nor does the Wilk's blinders or a similar system on a SA2 'bot (the elephant Bot IIRC), or blindflash (spell), or Thunderclap (spell), etc. So there is some precedent. It might come down to GM call and such at this point.

[guardiandashi]

Well we know Australia did. If the CS found out about it, I am pretty sure they could mass produce Xitcitix gas. That is one of the problems with the CS and a lot of these threats. Based on what we have seen them do, there is no explanation for why they can't do things which are much simpler on the grand scale. I mean, we can crack the human genome and create cloned human-level intelligent animals and other genetically engineered creatures... But we can't find an insecticide that works on what is a giant bug when we have their genetic makeup to work with?

That. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

Third, you don't even have to go to designer poisons if you're looking for questions (although there's no reason not to ponder that situation).
The CS is capable of producing injectable nanites that can heal people by tinkering with their insides.
Why wouldn't they be able to create a nano-plague that kills all non-human humanoids?
Or at least everything with DNA that's sufficiently different from humans?
I can't think of any good reasons... BUT that doesn't mean that there aren't any.
We know that the meta-game reason is because that kind of thing would destroy the setting.
In-game?
We can make up whatever answer we want, to serve as in-game sugar for this particular medicine.

I believe its covered in GURPS: robots, and or Reign of Steel where they have "Nano-D plagues" (Nano-Disassemblers) and while they are very nasty things to run into they also have a really nasty tendency to get out of control and start tearing apart things they shouldn't. So I kind of suspect there is a case of not wanting to let that particular "genie" out of the bottle as in many cases there is no real defense against rogue Nano-D.

[jaymz]

Well we know Australia did. If the CS found out about it, I am pretty sure they could mass produce Xitcitix gas. That is one of the problems with the CS and a lot of these threats. Based on what we have seen them do, there is no explanation for why they can't do things which are much simpler on the grand scale. I mean, we can crack the human genome and create cloned human-level intelligent animals and other genetically engineered creatures... But we can't find an insecticide that works on what is a giant bug when we have their genetic makeup to work with?

That. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

Third, you don't even have to go to designer poisons if you're looking for questions (although there's no reason not to ponder that situation).
The CS is capable of producing injectable nanites that can heal people by tinkering with their insides.
Why wouldn't they be able to create a nano-plague that kills all non-human humanoids?
Or at least everything with DNA that's sufficiently different from humans?
I can't think of any good reasons... BUT that doesn't mean that there aren't any.
We know that the meta-game reason is because that kind of thing would destroy the setting.
In-game?
We can make up whatever answer we want, to serve as in-game sugar for this particular medicine.

I believe its covered in GURPS: robots, and or Reign of Steel where they have "Nano-D plagues" (Nano-Disassemblers) and while they are very nasty things to run into they also have a really nasty tendency to get out of control and start tearing apart things they shouldn't. So I kind of suspect there is a case of not wanting to let that particular "genie" out of the bottle as in many cases there is no real defense against rogue Nano-D.

See - Splicers

[HWalsh]

Some guys in Australia wiped out Xiticix? Page?

How does being able to reproduce pheromones mean you can reproduce an insecticide. Messaging chemicals aren't killer chemicals.

Australia has a nerve agent that specifically kills MDC beings. (Kills SDC beings too but...)