EMP in Rifts - Spun off from Anti-GB II

[Natasha]

An EMP.

[Nightmask]

An EMP.

Just about everything including Glitterboys are shielded against EMP.

[Natasha]

An EMP.

Just about everything including Glitterboys are shielded against EMP.

Howso?

[guardiandashi]

An EMP.

Just about everything including Glitterboys are shielded against EMP.

Howso?

Military equipment tends to be EMP shielded by default and a part of standard military construction.
the easiest way to EMP shield electronics is to make sure there is electrically grounded material around the electronics. Similar to a Ferriday Cage.

if you have ever seen the movie "enemy of the state" with Will Smith in it, the "crazy ex CIA dude" has one in his "house" to keep the government from finding out what he knows.

another example is that large portions of a lab building at the local community college was built with EM shielding in the structure... Funny thing at the windows and outside.. 5 bars of signal inside? 0 bars. same principle.

Its harder to shield a flying vehicle than a ground vehicle I believe because the ground unit is basically always in contact with the ground allowing an EM sump.

[Natasha]

An EMP.

Just about everything including Glitterboys are shielded against EMP.

Howso?

Military equipment tends to be EMP shielded by default and a part of standard military construction.
the easiest way to EMP shield electronics is to make sure there is electrically grounded material around the electronics. Similar to a Ferriday Cage.

if you have ever seen the movie "enemy of the state" with Will Smith in it, the "crazy ex CIA dude" has one in his "house" to keep the government from finding out what he knows.

another example is that large portions of a lab building at the local community college was built with EM shielding in the structure... Funny thing at the windows and outside.. 5 bars of signal inside? 0 bars. same principle.

Its harder to shield a flying vehicle than a ground vehicle I believe because the ground unit is basically always in contact with the ground allowing an EM sump.

It should be noted that EM shielding is not the same as defence against an EMP. If you're talking about modern militaries, they do not tend to be EMP shielded; this is because an EMP weapon fielded on the modern battlefield is beyond unfeasible. The only place I seem to find the discussion on EMP defence is on prepper blogs and forums.

A Rifts EMP weapon is easy to imagine if we can imagine a laser that rips through a modern battle tank like it isn't there. Which means it's easy to image there is a Rifts defence against an EMP beyond the various (and easy) ways to become invulnerable to energy. But if the glitterboy is not EMP defended, then an EMP would take it out. So I'm fine with everything being shielded against EMP in Rifts, but it's either canon or it's a house rule and I'd just like to know which is the case.

[eliakon]

The spell Electro-Magnetic Attack specifically says that its EMP works on military devices, including robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. This would suggest that EMP shielding is not a standard feature.

[Killer Cyborg]

I remember from WAY back in the day that military gear in Rifts was supposed to be EMP shielded as a rule, but I cannot find the source of that information... unless it's from the old FAQ:
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/acew.html
46. Also, if there are borgs on Rifts Earth why does anybody worry about them? I mean all you should have to do is mechanical engineer a white noise generator (which puts out an EMP on a set frequency) and make it go on all frequencies. And for the extra kick, make it run off an e-clip for increased range. Do borgs (with all the technology the American Empire came up with in the Golden Age) have any kind of shielding against it?

Answer: Military hardware is shielded against EM spectrum interference.

[Nightmask]

The spell Electro-Magnetic Attack specifically says that its EMP works on military devices, including robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. This would suggest that EMP shielding is not a standard feature.

No, what it suggests is that the SPELL can overcome EMP shielding, since EMP shielding IS a standard feature of robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. Those things are all military-grade and they all come with EMP shielding, if they didn't then EMP weapons would be far more common.

[Killer Cyborg]

The spell Electro-Magnetic Attack specifically says that its EMP works on military devices, including robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. This would suggest that EMP shielding is not a standard feature.

No, what it suggests is that the SPELL can overcome EMP shielding, since EMP shielding IS a standard feature of robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. Those things are all military-grade and they all come with EMP shielding, if they didn't then EMP weapons would be far more common.

I strongly agree with that logic.
EMP weapons are easy to make, especially for a high-tech futuristic society, yet we don't see any EMP-specific weapons.
The only logical in-game reason would be that EMP weapons must be rather useless against Rifts era technology.

[Natasha]

I remember from WAY back in the day that military gear in Rifts was supposed to be EMP shielded as a rule, but I cannot find the source of that information... unless it's from the old FAQ:
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/acew.html
46. Also, if there are borgs on Rifts Earth why does anybody worry about them? I mean all you should have to do is mechanical engineer a white noise generator (which puts out an EMP on a set frequency) and make it go on all frequencies. And for the extra kick, make it run off an e-clip for increased range. Do borgs (with all the technology the American Empire came up with in the Golden Age) have any kind of shielding against it?

Answer: Military hardware is shielded against EM spectrum interference.

The question on the FAQ is absurd. A white noise generator does not put out an EMP. It puts out... noise.

In any case, EM shielding against EM interference does not protect against an EMP.

The spell Electro-Magnetic Attack specifically says that its EMP works on military devices, including robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. This would suggest that EMP shielding is not a standard feature.

No, what it suggests is that the SPELL can overcome EMP shielding, since EMP shielding IS a standard feature of robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. Those things are all military-grade and they all come with EMP shielding, if they didn't then EMP weapons would be far more common.

I strongly agree with that logic.
EMP weapons are easy to make, especially for a high-tech futuristic society, yet we don't see any EMP-specific weapons.
The only logical in-game reason would be that EMP weapons must be rather useless against Rifts era technology.

It's possible. Just as possible is that they are not easy to make even for a high-tech futuristic society which is why don't see any EMP weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

I remember from WAY back in the day that military gear in Rifts was supposed to be EMP shielded as a rule, but I cannot find the source of that information... unless it's from the old FAQ:
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/acew.html
46. Also, if there are borgs on Rifts Earth why does anybody worry about them? I mean all you should have to do is mechanical engineer a white noise generator (which puts out an EMP on a set frequency) and make it go on all frequencies. And for the extra kick, make it run off an e-clip for increased range. Do borgs (with all the technology the American Empire came up with in the Golden Age) have any kind of shielding against it?

Answer: Military hardware is shielded against EM spectrum interference.

The question on the FAQ is absurd. A white noise generator does not put out an EMP. It puts out... noise.

Much of the FAQ is absurd.

In any case, EM shielding against EM interference does not protect against an EMP.

I suspect that you are engaging in semantic distinctions that neither I nor the creators of the game care would really care about.

The spell Electro-Magnetic Attack specifically says that its EMP works on military devices, including robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. This would suggest that EMP shielding is not a standard feature.

No, what it suggests is that the SPELL can overcome EMP shielding, since EMP shielding IS a standard feature of robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. Those things are all military-grade and they all come with EMP shielding, if they didn't then EMP weapons would be far more common.

I strongly agree with that logic.
EMP weapons are easy to make, especially for a high-tech futuristic society, yet we don't see any EMP-specific weapons.
The only logical in-game reason would be that EMP weapons must be rather useless against Rifts era technology.

It's possible. Just as possible is that they are not easy to make even for a high-tech futuristic society which is why don't see any EMP weapons.

I disagree.

[Natasha]

In any case, EM shielding against EM interference does not protect against an EMP.

I suspect that you are engaging in semantic distinctions that neither I nor the creators of the game care would really care about.

And you would wrong the distinctions are semantic. The difference is like that between dogs and peaches.

So much for logic and reason when you speak gibberish and then insist it has meaning.

I disagree.

Apparently. But for no reason.

[Killer Cyborg]

In any case, EM shielding against EM interference does not protect against an EMP.

I suspect that you are engaging in semantic distinctions that neither I nor the creators of the game care would really care about.

And you would wrong the distinctions are semantic. The difference is like that between dogs and peaches.

Uh-huh.

So much for logic and reason when you speak gibberish and then insist it has meaning.

If you think that anything I said was confusing, let me know which part, and I will attempt to clarify things for you.
As it stands, I have no idea what part you believe is gibberish.

I disagree.

Apparently. But for no reason.

I have reason.
Do you?
You haven't given any support, just an opinion.
Do you believe that EMPs are particularly tricky to create?

[Natasha]

You're free to be ignorant and pretend words don't have the meanings they actually have. It doesn't change the meaning of the words; it just shows your ignorance about them. "I don't know/care/understand what you're talking about so you're wrong" isn't valid. White noise generators sending out an EMP is gibberish. If you accept that is what they do, then you'll have to abandon any requirements of being logical when having that discussion. You made the claim that the only explanation is they are useless first so you can go first.

[Killer Cyborg]

I quoted the FAQ. That's not the same as endorsing it.

I've given my explanation of my logic: it's easy to make EMPs today, and with futuristic tech, it'd be even easier.
If they worked on Rifts-era tech, they'd be everywhere.

[Nightmask]

I remember from WAY back in the day that military gear in Rifts was supposed to be EMP shielded as a rule, but I cannot find the source of that information... unless it's from the old FAQ:
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/acew.html
46. Also, if there are borgs on Rifts Earth why does anybody worry about them? I mean all you should have to do is mechanical engineer a white noise generator (which puts out an EMP on a set frequency) and make it go on all frequencies. And for the extra kick, make it run off an e-clip for increased range. Do borgs (with all the technology the American Empire came up with in the Golden Age) have any kind of shielding against it?

Answer: Military hardware is shielded against EM spectrum interference.

The question on the FAQ is absurd. A white noise generator does not put out an EMP. It puts out... noise.

In any case, EM shielding against EM interference does not protect against an EMP.

So for some reason you think shielding against EM and having circuits hardened against EMP doesn't protect against EMP.

The spell Electro-Magnetic Attack specifically says that its EMP works on military devices, including robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. This would suggest that EMP shielding is not a standard feature.

No, what it suggests is that the SPELL can overcome EMP shielding, since EMP shielding IS a standard feature of robots, power armor, and robot vehicles. Those things are all military-grade and they all come with EMP shielding, if they didn't then EMP weapons would be far more common.

I strongly agree with that logic.
EMP weapons are easy to make, especially for a high-tech futuristic society, yet we don't see any EMP-specific weapons.
The only logical in-game reason would be that EMP weapons must be rather useless against Rifts era technology.

It's possible. Just as possible is that they are not easy to make even for a high-tech futuristic society which is why don't see any EMP weapons.[/quote]

No that's a false equivalency, it's not just as possible that it would be impossibly difficult to make EMP weapons even with the futuristic tech of Rifts as it is that things like power armor are simply shielded against such weapons, particularly when the books do refer to such shielding for why you don't see EMP weapons.

[Natasha]

I quoted the FAQ. That's not the same as endorsing it.

I've given my explanation of my logic: it's easy to make EMPs today, and with futuristic tech, it'd be even easier.
If they worked on Rifts-era tech, they'd be everywhere.

Just curious, do you endorse it?

If everything was figured out in the future, there wouldn't be any power creep in Rifts. The fact of being in the future does not mean they are useless because they do not exist. Somebody has to build the first laser rifle, right. EMPs are easy to build today and unfeasible to deploy in battle. They might still be unfeasible in the future until there comes along a technological advancement. So pretty clearly your explanation isn't the only possible one.

[Killer Cyborg]

I quoted the FAQ. That's not the same as endorsing it.

I've given my explanation of my logic: it's easy to make EMPs today, and with futuristic tech, it'd be even easier.
If they worked on Rifts-era tech, they'd be everywhere.

Just curious, do you endorse it?

The FAQ is mostly useless, unless it cites or indicates an official source.
In this case, there's no indication where the answer comes from, so it's pretty much useless.

If everything was figured out in the future, there wouldn't be any power creep in Rifts. The fact of being in the future does not mean they are useless because they do not exist. Somebody has to build the first laser rifle, right. EMPs are easy to build today and unfeasible to deploy in battle. They might still be unfeasible in the future until there comes along a technological advancement. So pretty clearly your explanation isn't the only possible one.

Do you have ANY reason to believe that EMPs would be harder to create on Rifts Earth than they are today?
Also, http://gizmodo.com/5454295/this-emp-can ... -instantly.

[Natasha]

the falling rules are different for people in MDC armour... now, that's quite silly from a physics perspective. it should merely change to them splatting against the inside of their armour rather than splatting into the ground.

Armor typically has padding.

sure.

but imagine jumping off a tall building vs jumping off that building with a pillow to cushion the landing.

difference? eh, maybe. noticable difference to the point where one kills you several times over and the other you can walk away from? i'm gonna say no.

What I usually go with is that Rifts as super dooper materials available to it so the padding isn't a pillow but something with serious impulse. This doesn't explain why there are no internal injuries but strange things happen; sometimes people bounce off the ground.
One of the wonders of Rifts

[Killer Cyborg]

the falling rules are different for people in MDC armour... now, that's quite silly from a physics perspective. it should merely change to them splatting against the inside of their armour rather than splatting into the ground.

Armor typically has padding.

sure.

but imagine jumping off a tall building vs jumping off that building with a pillow to cushion the landing.

difference? eh, maybe. noticable difference to the point where one kills you several times over and the other you can walk away from? i'm gonna say no.

What I usually go with is that Rifts as super dooper materials available to it so the padding isn't a pillow but something with serious impulse. This doesn't explain why there are no internal injuries but strange things happen; sometimes people bounce off the ground.
One of the wonders of Rifts

Yup.

[Killer Cyborg]

So now we have TWO sources, both of which explicitly spell out that there is no hypothetical shielding that protects power armor (like say the Glitter Boy) from being the victim of EMP weapons.

No, not at all.
We have two sources, each of which indicate that yest, hardened targets resistant or impervious to typical EMPs do exist.
We don't know if the GB is among those targets, but I'd say it's logical to assume that they are.
If you cast that particular spell at a GB, it might overcome the GB's (hypothetical) hardening.
If you launch a nuke at a GB, that might overcome the GB's (hypothetical) hardening.
But we have NOTHING saying that GBs are not hardened against EMPs.

The older book (CS Navy) allows a 25% for 'hardened targets' to not be fried, with no details on what is or is not hardened
The newer book introduces a Save mechanic, with a 14+ for shielded military style technology (which gives a 70% efficiency instead of 75%)

Neither book gives the slightest support to the stance that there is any unmentioned protection out there that renders EMP weapons un-usable.

Right.
There is only the mentioned protection, and only the mentioned possible exceptions to that protection.
There are no general rules for EMPs, and there are no general rules for EMP protection, at least not that we have yet found.

[Marcethus]

Logically, given that the Boom-Gun would generate a fairly large magnetic field of it's own it is reasonable to infer that the GB would be hardened against such things. To protect it's electronic systems from being fried by its own Magnetic systems.

[Natasha]

Logically, given that the Boom-Gun would generate a fairly large magnetic field of it's own it is reasonable to infer that the GB would be hardened against such things. To protect it's electronic systems from being fried by its own Magnetic systems.

It's interesting. Modern rail guns don't have this problem and they pack quite a punch. They do have other problems that railguns in Rifts do not.

Although it's physically impossible to stop a magnetic field, we can redirect them if we exploit permeability. We have mu-metal today, Rifts almost certainly would, too. My hunch is that even if we redirect the magnetic field, the "E" in EM is still a serious problem. Lead will stop x-rays but it has the same permeability as air and so is utterly ineffective against magnetic fields. Not sure anything stops gamma rays. But such a material is a hand wave away.

We rapidly descend into the realm of GM's Choice because that's what makes the most sense in the case of EMP and defence against them. What I've seen posted so far, canon is wide open to any interpretation we please.

[Jefffar]

I do not believe the FAQ is the only source for indicating that most Rifts military vehicles and similar are shielded from an EMP, unfortunately I don't have the citation immediately to hand.

I do have a few other things to bring up. First, in 2001 Popular Mechanics published an article regarding creating an EMP weapon using 1940's technology that would be powerful enough to black out a city and small enough to be carried by a conventional fighter-bomber. The article itself is no longer on PM's website, but it is referenced here: http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm

So I would have to say that given the above, and the greatly enhanced technology of Rifts earth, yes, portable EMP weapons are likely possible. I'd say the Neural Rifle carried by the JAPE II may actually be a highly evolved form of such, generating an electro-magnetic pulse effect fine tuned to disrupt humanoid neural networks at range without the need for a conductive material like modern tasers.

My second point is that nuclear weapons generate EMPs. In addition to having the world as they know it ended in part by a nuclear exchange, the inhabitants of Rifts Earth are used to nuclear weapons being used on the battlefield. Heck, they even have hand placed nuclear demolitions charges and nuclear rifle grenades. Further, Ion, Particle, Plasma and Rail weaponry all require some degree of potent electromagnetic forces to work, which could necessitate some degree of shielding being built into these weapons. Arguably an Ion weapon should deliver a surge of electromagnetic energy similar to an EMP when it hits a target.

So the designers on Rifts Earth would be well aware of the effects of EMPs and reasonably expect to encounter them periodically. They would also know how to shield from at least the lower end of the power spectrum of EMPs. So I think that it would be illogical to assume that these factors have no place in their design philosophy.

So I can't say exactly to what extent military vehicles and the like would be shielded vs EMP, but I can't believe it would be completely absent.

[kaid]

An EMP.

Just about everything including Glitterboys are shielded against EMP.

Howso?

Military equipment tends to be EMP shielded by default and a part of standard military construction.
the easiest way to EMP shield electronics is to make sure there is electrically grounded material around the electronics. Similar to a Ferriday Cage.

if you have ever seen the movie "enemy of the state" with Will Smith in it, the "crazy ex CIA dude" has one in his "house" to keep the government from finding out what he knows.

another example is that large portions of a lab building at the local community college was built with EM shielding in the structure... Funny thing at the windows and outside.. 5 bars of signal inside? 0 bars. same principle.

Its harder to shield a flying vehicle than a ground vehicle I believe because the ground unit is basically always in contact with the ground allowing an EM sump.

A giant dense chrome power armor is effectively a faraday cage already now add in military grade hardening and you get something that is unlikely to be seriously effected by EMP. There are a number of examples of EMP in rifts magical/psionic/tech based. In general either they simply don't effect military hardware/vehicles at all or their effects are very transient.

[Alrik Vas]

Ah yes, "half your weapons generate EMP as a side effect, you need to protect against it if you want to keep firing."

Seems like a strong argument.

[glitterboy2098]

It is worth noting that "resistant to EMP" and "EMP sheilded" does not mean "immune to EMP"

EMP protection is largely a matter of surge protectors and other such systems to regulate voltage flow, more robust electronic components,, combined with backup systems that are simpler and less liable to be damage in a surge.

a military vehicle hit by EMP will still have it's system's degraded. even if the systems are not damaged, they will not be working at 100% for some time (since much of it will have automatically shut down to minimize damage, and will have to reboot. and those systems that did not shut down will generally go into a diagnostic mode to verify they are still functioning at required capacity.) Integrated circuits are extremely vulnerable to EMP effects, since the induced voltage changes and the radiation pulses tend to fry the minute connections. most EMP hardening is designed around the idea that the advanced electronics will fail, but the simpler backups will still function.


so while an EMP may not destroy advanced military devices, they would tend to mess them up and render them non-functional for a time.
civilian stuff would be very hit or miss.. a lot of radio's and walkie-talkies for example end up partially hardened due to the needs of their design, and would survive as long as the antenna are not up. yet most civilian electronics are not hardened. this is important to know IRL because our military is moving towards "off the shelf" technology basis.. so non-hardened civilian systems are being used more and more. this is because the hardened stuff is quite a few generations behind the current standard civilian stuff, especially in computing. and there isn't much farther the hardened stuff can go. hardening is a factor of design, and basically requires you to forgo a lot of miniaturization (because the smaller the component is, the more vulnerable it is to voltage and radiation. this is why the Space Shuttle, even after several updates, used computer's less powerful than many graphing calculators today)

and EMP hardening is generally only good up to a certain level. if the EMP attack has a strong enough field, even the hardened stuff will fry.

a very useful site i've found: http://www.futurescience.com/emp/

[drewkitty ~..~]

When writing up my expansion to the AUGG space-/star-ship construction tables (The Galaxy Unlimited) I did include a directional EMP projector as one of the ship-systems. While I have classed it as an Anti-Ship weapon it does only 1d6x10 SD to ships. But it has an high % to knock out the ship's systems for a time.

[flatline]

In theory, any circuitry enclosed in a super-conductor is perfectly shielded from EMP. Any circuitry enclosed by a conductor will be highly resistant to EMP. Enough so to consider it perfectly shielded unless the EMP is so intense it causes the surrounding conductor to melt...but then you've really got a different kind of weapon.

Unless I have a compelling reason not to, I assume that any electronics that are intended to be "robust" (weapons, for example) will have EMP resistant circuitry.

[glitterboy2098]

In theory, any circuitry enclosed in a super-conductor is perfectly shielded from EMP. Any circuitry enclosed by a conductor will be highly resistant to EMP. Enough so to consider it perfectly shielded unless the EMP is so intense it causes the surrounding conductor to melt...but then you've really got a different kind of weapon.

Unless I have a compelling reason not to, I assume that any electronics that are intended to be "robust" (weapons, for example) will have EMP resistant circuitry.

in practice however any electronics that need to interface with the outside world are vulnerable even with faraday cages, because they have to have connections through the cage. which means that even if the pulse does not hit the device directly, the surges coming in over the connections will still effect it. anything contained wholly inside a faraday cage can only be used to sense/manipulate things inside the cage, and nothing outside it.

and you don't need superconductors to do it, just a good conductive mesh.

[ShadowLogan]

Even it this were true they're still bulky (a lot bulkier than the one Killer Cyborg linked to) and still have limited range. Putting a radar system on cargo trucks and driving it into battle with only a few hundred meters of range is not feasible and it does not happen today. They don't even seem to be deployed to static positions like checkpoints.

Once again, I did not say it's not possible they were tried and discarded in the future. I said it's not the only possibility.

The point though is that EMP weapons can come in a variety of forms, sizes and effective ranges. Also the US in 2012 tested CHOMPS missile with a EMP warhead. So the technology is feasible.

KCs example though is for a specific role (stopping a car), it's range is probably limited because of that role. Raython has a high powered microwave system that can potentially reach 100miles (160km) intended for airport protection (http://www.livescience.com/435-radar-death-ray.html).

The technology is real but deployable weapons are not (yet). It's all still just theory and tests that never seem to go anywhere, and when I look for weaponised EMP I mostly find discussions on prepper sites. When I look at e-warfighting operational documents, EMP only gets listed in the glossary. If EMP weaponry is on the verge of deployment, then it's super secret. I couldn't find anything on CHOMPS using "2012 CHOMPS test" and scanning the first few results. what is CHOMPS? I read the Raytheon article and it seems to be discussing jamming which is different from EMP. The site was terribly slow and never fully loaded so I may have missed something.

I'm not sure if I would dismiss it as theory/tests only. It probably is going to be treated as "secret" I think if it is operationally ready, though budget constraints might have more do with lack of "public" adoption even if its ready. The US military doesn't have a blank check to spend.

As for 2012 CHOMPS, my bad it should be CHAMP. http://www.boeing.com/features/2012/10/ ... 22-12.page

The LiveScience article is not the best, since it attempts to summarize/quote the Aviation Week cover story, which will be hard to get unless you subscribe to the magazine currently, or have a source for back issues that goes that far back (I still have the article). You might have missed the part "Possible AESA techniques for attacking another radar could include burning through the target radar's antenna side-lobes, filter side-lobes, or other known features of the target system. ", that is not jamming by any stretch of the word.

[eliakon]

I would like to point out that "hardened" "resistant" and "Immune" are totally different.
A device can be one or both of the first with out being the second. And a device can be the third with out being the first (if it is something not susceptible to EMP in the first place).

Since we know that At least some EMP can over come the first two classes, it seems to me to be a stretch to assume that there are any examples of the third class absent an explicit statement of such. It would seem that since vulnerability to EMP is already a known canon issue, being immune to that weakness would need to be spelled out rather than something one just implies from the desire for it to exist.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's rifts. I go with the military equipment being EMP shielded.

If nothing else small MD pistols pack more punch than modern day battle tanks. Once you reach that level of science, it's going to be a pretty easy thing to protect against EMP.

When looking at the spell, the spell works due to "magic". Quite literally. A magical fire ball doesn't work due to physics. It's a ball of magical fire flung at someone and hitting for mega damage.

Spell replicates EMP is due to it being 'magic' not physical.

Even then I'd give a savings roll or negate it against military equipment (Which all MD stuff would be, as it's... mega damage and stronger than the main gun on a modern battle tank.)

it has the added benifit of keeping things nice and easy.

Now if they want to create some sort of 'Super science, super EMP" that might be different, but baring that. Yeah. Done deal. Modern MD equipment is shielded.

[Natasha]

I'm not sure if I would dismiss it as theory/tests only. It probably is going to be treated as "secret" I think if it is operationally ready, though budget constraints might have more do with lack of "public" adoption even if its ready. The US military doesn't have a blank check to spend.

As for 2012 CHOMPS, my bad it should be CHAMP. http://www.boeing.com/features/2012/10/ ... 22-12.page

The LiveScience article is not the best, since it attempts to summarize/quote the Aviation Week cover story, which will be hard to get unless you subscribe to the magazine currently, or have a source for back issues that goes that far back (I still have the article). You might have missed the part "Possible AESA techniques for attacking another radar could include burning through the target radar's antenna side-lobes, filter side-lobes, or other known features of the target system. ", that is not jamming by any stretch of the word.

Thanks.

I don't want to belabour the point of my interpretation of how things are today. I think this will sum it up but on the other hand I'm happy to discuss anything.

The CHAMP test seems to me was proving the concept and the article reads as if that's the case. I don't know if they explain why in the video, as I don't have sound on this computer, but when all the computers in the room go dark the lights and cameras stay on, but in the animation they show complete darkness. In any case when people say things like "in the future ... we may have XYZ" I take it with a grain of salt that it will occur at all at worst or is still years away at best. I number of ideas get tried and some work, some don't work.

So we might getting tripped on the word "feasible". What I mean is a system ready for deployment now, not in some possible future 5, 50, 500 years from now. Perhaps I'm using the wrong word.

As for the radar array that comment seems highly speculative. But the essence is the same as with the CHAMP test. It's even better for CHAMP as there was an actual test while for the RA there was just speculation.

These defence contractors are in business to make money, so some hype is to be expected about their successes and their possibilities. I think it's hard to separate all of the noise out and get a true sense of the state of things today. Although I am inclined to think there's more hype than being on the verge of battlefield deployability going on in this research. But it's all just a hunch.

[Alrik Vas]

I would like to point out that "hardened" "resistant" and "Immune" are totally different.
A device can be one or both of the first with out being the second. And a device can be the third with out being the first (if it is something not susceptible to EMP in the first place).

Since we know that At least some EMP can over come the first two classes, it seems to me to be a stretch to assume that there are any examples of the third class absent an explicit statement of such. It would seem that since vulnerability to EMP is already a known canon issue, being immune to that weakness would need to be spelled out rather than something one just implies from the desire for it to exist.

To me that's basically true as a virtue of the spell that keeps being brought up having a saving throw. It's not automatic either way.

[Natasha]

Not sure whether this goes here or in the other thread, but on page 84 of Mutants in Orbit you can purchase EMP protection for your spaceship but no EMP rules are offered. It is not standard or apparently even available for the glitterboys described in that book.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not sure if I would dismiss it as theory/tests only. It probably is going to be treated as "secret" I think if it is operationally ready, though budget constraints might have more do with lack of "public" adoption even if its ready. The US military doesn't have a blank check to spend.

As for 2012 CHOMPS, my bad it should be CHAMP. http://www.boeing.com/features/2012/10/ ... 22-12.page

The LiveScience article is not the best, since it attempts to summarize/quote the Aviation Week cover story, which will be hard to get unless you subscribe to the magazine currently, or have a source for back issues that goes that far back (I still have the article). You might have missed the part "Possible AESA techniques for attacking another radar could include burning through the target radar's antenna side-lobes, filter side-lobes, or other known features of the target system. ", that is not jamming by any stretch of the word.

Thanks.

I don't want to belabour the point of my interpretation of how things are today. I think this will sum it up but on the other hand I'm happy to discuss anything.

The CHAMP test seems to me was proving the concept and the article reads as if that's the case. I don't know if they explain why in the video, as I don't have sound on this computer, but when all the computers in the room go dark the lights and cameras stay on, but in the animation they show complete darkness.

The guy says that it took out the cameras as well.
Obviously, there's no footage of that part.

In any case when people say things like "in the future ... we may have XYZ" I take it with a grain of salt that it will occur at all at worst or is still years away at best. I number of ideas get tried and some work, some don't work.

Of course.
The question in this case is "what specific technology is necessary to improve EMP weapons, and does Rifts Earth have it?"

So... what does it take to make an EMP, and what would it take to make a bigger (and/or more focused) one?

[Killer Cyborg]

Not sure whether this goes here or in the other thread, but on page 84 of Mutants in Orbit you can purchase EMP protection for your spaceship but no EMP rules are offered. It is not standard or apparently even available for the glitterboys described in that book.

Good find.

I think it's a leap to say that it's not available for GBs, or to claim that it's not standard in them.
That section is only about spacecraft.

[eliakon]

It's rifts. I go with the military equipment being EMP shielded.

If nothing else small MD pistols pack more punch than modern day battle tanks. Once you reach that level of science, it's going to be a pretty easy thing to protect against EMP.

When looking at the spell, the spell works due to "magic". Quite literally. A magical fire ball doesn't work due to physics. It's a ball of magical fire flung at someone and hitting for mega damage.

Spell replicates EMP is due to it being 'magic' not physical.

Even then I'd give a savings roll or negate it against military equipment (Which all MD stuff would be, as it's... mega damage and stronger than the main gun on a modern battle tank.)

it has the added benifit of keeping things nice and easy.

Now if they want to create some sort of 'Super science, super EMP" that might be different, but baring that. Yeah. Done deal. Modern MD equipment is shielded.

Problem with that is twofold the first is that you don't get a save vs fireball or a save vs lightning bolt.. Its not a save vs spell, its a specific save against a force that was conjured. And in Palladium once a force is conjured it is a real force, which is why you have to dodge or parry fireballs. Because they are real.

The second is that objects are not to roll saves vs. magic, it automatically affects them. Which means that even if it was "oh its magic it doesn't count" then it would AUTOMATICALLY affect items, because they are not allowed to save.

Both of which suggest that the Save Vs. EMP is an actual save, just like Save Vs: Magic, Poison, Pain, Despair, Temptation, and all the various other sundry saves that exist.
There is not a lot of call for it apparently, but it exists.

[Killer Cyborg]

the Save Vs. EMP is an actual save, just like Save Vs: Magic, Poison, Pain, Despair, Temptation, and all the various other sundry saves that exist.

Right.
But that doesn't mean that it's the normal result of an EMP being used.
So far, it seems to only be used with this particular spell.

[eliakon]

Not sure whether this goes here or in the other thread, but on page 84 of Mutants in Orbit you can purchase EMP protection for your spaceship but no EMP rules are offered. It is not standard or apparently even available for the glitterboys described in that book.

Good find.

I think it's a leap to say that it's not available for GBs, or to claim that it's not standard in them.
That section is only about spacecraft.

If it is not standard gear on space ships though, then the argument that such shielding is routinely added to gear seems to be specious. After all, it wouldn't be a non-standard option if it was standard now would it?

[eliakon]

the Save Vs. EMP is an actual save, just like Save Vs: Magic, Poison, Pain, Despair, Temptation, and all the various other sundry saves that exist.

Right.
But that doesn't mean that it's the normal result of an EMP being used.
So far, it seems to only be used with this particular spell.

And since it was added to the game no additional forms of EMP have been added either making it impossible to tell if it is one off or the new standard either. Which to me suggests that claiming that it must be unique and not apply to any other EMP and thus allow for people to dismiss the existence of EMP as existing seems... specious at best.

[Killer Cyborg]

the Save Vs. EMP is an actual save, just like Save Vs: Magic, Poison, Pain, Despair, Temptation, and all the various other sundry saves that exist.

Right.
But that doesn't mean that it's the normal result of an EMP being used.
So far, it seems to only be used with this particular spell.

And since it was added to the game no additional forms of EMP have been added either making it impossible to tell if it is one off or the new standard either. Which to me suggests that claiming that it must be unique and not apply to any other EMP and thus allow for people to dismiss the existence of EMP as existing seems... specious at best.

Agreed.
On the other hand, claiming that it may very well be unique is perfectly logical.
We have a sample of exactly two EMP weapons that I'm aware of, large nukes and this spell.
The large nukes have a flat 25% success rate.
The spell has a Save vs. EMP.

It could be the difference between a technological EMP vs a magically created EMP.
It could be the difference between a smaller EMP and a larger EMP.
It could be something else.

[Natasha]

Not sure whether this goes here or in the other thread, but on page 84 of Mutants in Orbit you can purchase EMP protection for your spaceship but no EMP rules are offered. It is not standard or apparently even available for the glitterboys described in that book.

Good find.

I think it's a leap to say that it's not available for GBs, or to claim that it's not standard in them.
That section is only about spacecraft.

If it is not standard gear on space ships though, then the argument that such shielding is routinely added to gear seems to be specious. After all, it wouldn't be a non-standard option if it was standard now would it?

Also the glitter boy write ups do not list it as standard or even offer it as an option. The only words about defence are how much M.D.C. and where.

Rifts meet Attention To Detail.

[kaid]

There are EMP effects already written out. Most simply don't have any effect on military equipment. A few can have some transient issues and generally have a chart for power fluctuations that they cause. None I have seen yet can knock out a military vehicle or power armor but some can cause very short duration equipment glitches.

[The Beast]

The main issue is what Palladium actually means when they say that mecha units are radiation shielded and body armor has minimal radiation shielding. An EMP may be a natural occurrence or man-made and can occur as a radiated, electric or magnetic field or a conducted electric current, depending on the source. An EMP weapon would be a burst of electromagnetic radiation.

Also I personally don't see how EMP shielding wouldn't be standard equipment for the orbitals. If the wrong solar flare hits you you'd be completely at the mercy the first law of physics until gravity takes control.

[Killer Cyborg]

Not sure whether this goes here or in the other thread, but on page 84 of Mutants in Orbit you can purchase EMP protection for your spaceship but no EMP rules are offered. It is not standard or apparently even available for the glitterboys described in that book.

Good find.

I think it's a leap to say that it's not available for GBs, or to claim that it's not standard in them.
That section is only about spacecraft.

If it is not standard gear on space ships though, then the argument that such shielding is routinely added to gear seems to be specious. After all, it wouldn't be a non-standard option if it was standard now would it?

Also the glitter boy write ups do not list it as standard or even offer it as an option. The only words about defence are how much M.D.C. and where.

Rifts meet Attention To Detail.

Again, how things are with spaceships doesn't really reflect on power armor or other objects.

It's not listed with GBs, but it's never listed with power armor.
Is that because it's not present, or because it's a given that it IS present?
We don't have enough info.

[Natasha]

I'm not sure if I would dismiss it as theory/tests only. It probably is going to be treated as "secret" I think if it is operationally ready, though budget constraints might have more do with lack of "public" adoption even if its ready. The US military doesn't have a blank check to spend.

As for 2012 CHOMPS, my bad it should be CHAMP. http://www.boeing.com/features/2012/10/ ... 22-12.page

The LiveScience article is not the best, since it attempts to summarize/quote the Aviation Week cover story, which will be hard to get unless you subscribe to the magazine currently, or have a source for back issues that goes that far back (I still have the article). You might have missed the part "Possible AESA techniques for attacking another radar could include burning through the target radar's antenna side-lobes, filter side-lobes, or other known features of the target system. ", that is not jamming by any stretch of the word.

Thanks.

I don't want to belabour the point of my interpretation of how things are today. I think this will sum it up but on the other hand I'm happy to discuss anything.

The CHAMP test seems to me was proving the concept and the article reads as if that's the case. I don't know if they explain why in the video, as I don't have sound on this computer, but when all the computers in the room go dark the lights and cameras stay on, but in the animation they show complete darkness.

The guy says that it took out the cameras as well.
Obviously, there's no footage of that part.

In any case when people say things like "in the future ... we may have XYZ" I take it with a grain of salt that it will occur at all at worst or is still years away at best. I number of ideas get tried and some work, some don't work.

Of course.
The question in this case is "what specific technology is necessary to improve EMP weapons, and does Rifts Earth have it?"

So... what does it take to make an EMP, and what would it take to make a bigger (and/or more focused) one?

There are some issues with the video they do provide. It looks nothing like the animation and looks like a magician's trick. We are never told what time of day the experiment took place. The animation suggests night time. The video supposedly of the experiment is day time (so we never get to see electrical lighting go off or even flicker). It just raises red flags. We are told to focus on the computers which we get to watch go dark, although some don't go totally dark. It could be sleight of hand. It's only after the dramatic pause on mostly dark computer screens that the video finally fades to black, which looks like it could be the result of video editing.

I would say the question is not only does Rifts Earth have but also can Rifts Earth develop it. Frankly I think it's all up to the GM to just decide what the state of EMP offence and defence is in the game because what is given to the GM in the books to use doesn't give a definitive answer.

[eliakon]

Not sure whether this goes here or in the other thread, but on page 84 of Mutants in Orbit you can purchase EMP protection for your spaceship but no EMP rules are offered. It is not standard or apparently even available for the glitterboys described in that book.

Good find.

I think it's a leap to say that it's not available for GBs, or to claim that it's not standard in them.
That section is only about spacecraft.

If it is not standard gear on space ships though, then the argument that such shielding is routinely added to gear seems to be specious. After all, it wouldn't be a non-standard option if it was standard now would it?

Also the glitter boy write ups do not list it as standard or even offer it as an option. The only words about defence are how much M.D.C. and where.

Rifts meet Attention To Detail.

Again, how things are with spaceships doesn't really reflect on power armor or other objects.

It's not listed with GBs, but it's never listed with power armor.
Is that because it's not present, or because it's a given that it IS present?
We don't have enough info.

That's a pretty weak argument.
We have an EM weapon in the spaceships (Scramblers) that says it affects everything that doesn't have the specific shielding.
Then we have the option of adding the shielding if we want...
...and your telling me that everything out there (including civilian hard suits) comes with this shielding, for free, with no note or mention of it...but that no spaceships, even military spaceships come with it standard unless otherwise stated? Seriously?
That sounds less like a logical argument than more of a "Well they don't say they DONT have them" (I mean the books also don't say that Glitterboys don't come with Universal Credit hacking machines, AI computers, or extra-dimensional Jacuzzis either, doesn't mean we should assume they have any of them)

[Natasha]

That's a pretty weak argument.
We have an EM weapon in the spaceships (Scramblers) that says it affects everything that doesn't have the specific shielding.
Then we have the option of adding the shielding if we want...
...and your telling me that everything out there (including civilian hard suits) comes with this shielding, for free, with no note or mention of it...but that no spaceships, even military spaceships come with it standard unless otherwise stated? Seriously?
That sounds less like a logical argument than more of a "Well they don't say they DONT have them" (I mean the books also don't say that Glitterboys don't come with Universal Credit hacking machines, AI computers, or extra-dimensional Jacuzzis either, doesn't mean we should assume they have any of them)

I agree with this. I think the counter is a negative proof/Russell's teapot. But I also think that the lack of clarity (Palladium's lack of attention to detail and ad hoc game development methods) leaves neither with solid canonical footing (although I'd say the former is much firmer than the latter). So I think it leaves us to house ruling that if we want our game to have everything defended, then we do that. If we don't, then we do that.