The good and bad of the CS.

[Blue_Lion]

No propaganda just the facts on what the good and bad about the CS as a nation not. Try to limit it to facts we have in writing. If you provide something that is good about them you must also recognize something that is bad about them, and if you recognize something bad you must also recognize something good. (preferably on a 1 to 1 ratio.)
Example

The good.
A: CS provides the standard of economy that allows for innervation trading in north America.
B: According to Collation war campaign most of the food eating not only by the CS but other nations like Lazlo is grown in the CS.
C: CS contains one of the devil gates next to Chi town.

The bad.
A: CS as a whole is racist and practices Genicide against other races during war regaurdless if the other race is a threat.
B: CS uses military force to annex land based on vauge claims of belonging to humanity that have not been valid in over a 100 years. Forcing people that are living there that are not the CS chosen race to either loose there home or die in a racial purge.
C: The upper CS leadership and policy setters are corrupt and evil.

Note: the claim savors of humanity is propaganda not fact humanity can survive without the CS and has in nations like NGR and New Lazlo.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ohh. I like this game!

Good:
A: The CS Protect millions of humans on a planet that has seen billions of humans die to alien invaders and supernatural threats since the coming of rifts
B: The CS has recovered many pre rifts/Golden age technologies that help humanity as a hole. Bionics, cybernetics, MD weapons, MD Armor, Advanced genetics including cows that eat less, make more meat, make the meat quicker, and even taste b etter.
C: The CS has created a 'new' race, or 'recreated it' as it was 98% done before the coming of rifts. The new created race is much loved... but....
D: The CS have some pretty cool uniforms/Arms/Armor.
E: The CS Health care gives the average CS CITIZEN, prolonged life and a high standard of life in a post apocalyptic setting.
F: The CS have crossed the monster filled atlantic to put boot to ass for other humans over in Germany
G: The CS Took out a nation of Evil magic users, supernatural creatures with armies of demons.
H: The CS's higher learning is some of the highest in North America.

Bad:
A: The CS tend to be heavy handed with Dbees up to and including mass deportation or up to summary execution based on looks and ill conceived preconceptions.
B: The CS repress education as a whole, promoting ignorance so that they may rewrite history as they see fit. (Which all nations do, but it's bad even when everyone does it)
C: The CS uses it's new race as combat troops and values them less than humans, even though that new race gives it's all and throws itself into the jaws of literal monsters to protect humans.
D: Sadly the cool uniforms arms and armor are designed to purposefully invoke fear in the enemies of the state
E: The CS have in the past used Dbees in rather unethical experimentation.
F: Those other humans they helped are pretty much CS Light, on all the bad things.
G: It can be argued that that nation USED to be Good, but TURNED willingly evil, due to fear of the CS. Tolkeen went evil on it's own, but they were goaded. They still made the choice, but yeah.
H: Said higher learning is restricted to an uber class and AS WRITTEN most of their population are illiterate. (I disagree with this as it's dumb but it's in the books)

[flatline]

The Good:
1. The CS is an excellent antagonist for low and medium powered parties
2. The CS provides an endless source of loot

The Bad:
1. As described, the CS ruins the integrity of the setting (too many resources, unrealistic economics, etc)
2. The CS seems to be the primary reason for advancing the time line

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Good:
They're humans and you know what to expect.

Bad:
They're humans and you know what to expect.

[HWalsh]

Good:
1. The CS supplies stability to a percentage of the human population in North America.
2. The CS actively takes action against major threats such as the Xiticix.
3. The CS has attempted, and succeeded in, operations to re-establish international and intercontinental trade.
4. The CS provides food which is used by the greater population of North America, even the enemies of the CS.
5. The CS has made strides in developing and improving technology.
6. The CS has utilized its laboratories to master genetics and create life.
7. The CS has, somewhat, welcomed Psi-Stalkers into its boarders.
8. The CS has some impressive armor and weaponry.
9. The CS believes in negotiation and diplomacy with other human nations.
10. The CS has created medical technology that has improved the lives of its Citizens.
11. The CS utilizes a hierarchical structure that ensures that even in the event of a catastrophe that order can be maintained.

Bad:
1. The CS only recognizes 75% of Humans as Human, declaring all others, even Psychics, as not-fully-human.
2. The CS engages in genocide against D-Bees.
3. The CS engages in genocide against humans who do not conform to their views on Magic and the Supernatural. (This is comparable to a Religious Purge.)
4. The CS threatened Tolkeen, a City-State stated to have never threatened or attacked the CS, until they were forced to take drastic and morally reprehensible actions to defend their City-State... Then committed genocide against them.
5. The CS actively stifles other nations and/or groups who attempt to make strides developing and improving technology.
6. The CS created life, then immediately enslaved it.
7. The CS relegates Psi-Stalkers, Psychics, and Dogboys into a 3rd class of citizen, or in the case of Dogboys lower than that.
8. The CS uses its impressive armor and weaponry to intimidate, kill, and commit genocide.
9. The CS believes negotiation and diplomacy with D-Bees and magic users is best performed with a mega-damage rifle blast to the face.
10. The CS keeps its citizens ignorant and docile with propaganda and limited to near-nonexistent access to education.
11. The CS breaks its citizenry up in a manner of 1st class citizens (the wealthy and powerful who are allowed education and training), 2nd class citizens (who are denied education), and 3rd class citizens (who they have declared aren't really human even when they were born to human parents.)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Minor note. CWC and then the recent HoH book have pretty much retaconned the thing on Psychics. The new book states that psychics are seen as heroes and what not now, and utalized highly.
Note two. Tolkeen wasn't FORCED to go evil. They chose to go evil. There was years of military build up in which tolkeen could have fled or hidden. That was a choice. One of many.
Note three. They don't stifle other nations that attempt to make strides in technology. Northern Gun is one of their strongest allies and they sell to the CS and are even incorperating NG advancements into their arms and armor.
Note four. Dogboys aren't enslaved. The Lone star book goes to great extents to make this clear. They willingly serve, even often when given the chance not to.
Note five, sort of a wrap around to note one. The psychics, psistalkers and dog boys are not third class citizens. Doy boys are considered 'animals' but arte much beloved by both the military and even more so by the citizens. The psychics while back in SB1 (Non revised) Were written to have a bad shake, this has been changed in CWC (Put out over a decade ago) and more recently in HoH as heroes.

[kaid]

The CS accepts psychics as provisionally human and they are allowed to live and be employed inside the fortress cities themselves. They simply are required to register as psychics. Given what some psychics are capable of this does not seem to be a bad idea.

They also play a sizable role in security forces and the military.

2. Genocide vs D-bees is probably the biggest knock against them. Not only is it wrong and needlessly causes conflict and threats that otherwise could have been avoided but until/unless the rifts stop rifting it is pointless. May as well shoot the sky unless you can stop them from being ripped from their homeworlds and thrown through rifts you can't really kill enough of them to matter.

3. Given their long experience with magic and the treachery of magic users this is while unfortunate pretty understandable. That is one good thing with the minion war potentially given them enough exposure of enough of their population to heroic magic users and the vanguard to slowly swing things back the other way. When the CS was founded they had magical forces in the CS military that served with honor and still serve in the form of the vanguard.

4. Tolkeen with the heroes of humanity looks like it was more or less a city in the way of expansion of a greater power in need of resources found past them. The fact they were magic users just was an easier justification to do it. It was bad but it was a bad that nations have been doing since nations first started forming. Once a powerful nation starts running low on strategic resources its neighbors who have those resources or are in the way of deposists of them tend to get run over.

5. I don't really see this. They could squash northern gun and the manastique empire flat but they have not done so even though these powers were actively working and advancing their technological capability and were right in the CS sphere of influence. Other than new kenora I don't really see any evidence of this at least for physical technology and not magical techno wizard stuff. New kenora which was part of the CS originally to begin with was not much a nation.

6. This is true although their enslavement is basically asking dog boys to pretty much do what they want to do anyway. In heroes of humanity they are offering clemency for dog boys who went rogue to help them fight demons and a large percentage of the rogue dog boys came back to do just that. Also I think after tolkeen and especially after troops see them used in the minion wars the CS people themselves will not see nor treat dog boys as slaves. Maybe not the same as humans but its hard to look at something as property that selflessly sacrifices its life to save you from literal demons. Their initial intentions were clearly bad but long run the CS leaders forgot that their whole reasons for making dog boys in the first place is that dogs love and trust humans but forgot the converse is most humans love dogs right back.

7 They deffinately have unease with psychics but I am not sure its really a 3rd class citizen. They are wary of them but they also are making countless psychics at lone star and heavily rely on the abilities of psi stalkers in their military and internal security forces. To a large extent after getting burned by magic users they are wary of psychics but over time seem to be making more and more heavy use of them. Asking a psychic to register does not seem to be a bad thing given the powers they have.

8. this is largely true although it is also largely true that the CS for all its strength is pretty bellicose but until tolkeen not very expansionistic. Now we have a bit more behind the scenes reasons why they started to act that way. If the CS just wanted to MDK magic users they could stomp new lazlo and other cities of similar size any time they chose to. Until now they have never chosen to. If you are in their territory or areas they claim life is bad if you are a dbee or a magic user but overall the CS really was not throwing around that much actual forces.

Just look at the minion war in the first few months they plan on throwing out 300k juicers into combat. With the size of their military had they really just wanted to genoicde all magic users/dbees there were a lot of other targets that were smaller and easier to do this to than tolkeen that still exist.

9 the mostly don't want to talk to them at all until recently though if you stayed out of their territory the CS did not seem overly anxious to start major offensives. Even if they "win" the minion war if they were resource limited before they may wind up not being in any position for any major offenses against anybody for a long time to come.

10. This is one of the most short sighted parts of their policy. Triax is built along similar lines but actually values literacy. If you really want to embrace high technology having your population illeterates who cannot make really full use out of it seems foolish in the long run.

11 in general this is basically every military state in history. You have your elite citizens your nameless masses and the dregs.

[HWalsh]

Minor note. CWC and then the recent HoH book have pretty much retaconned the thing on Psychics. The new book states that psychics are seen as heroes and what not now, and utalized highly.

And that doesn't mean they aren't 3rd class citizens. The current core book, RUE, states that they are SPECIFICALLY seen as "not really" human. They are STILL third class citizens. While they may be TRYING to change it, they haven't yet. That is just your head canon.

Note two. Tolkeen wasn't FORCED to go evil. They chose to go evil. There was years of military build up in which tolkeen could have fled or hidden. That was a choice. One of many.

Flee your home, where you have been for a couple generations, or be destroyed. That isn't really a choice.

Note three. They don't stifle other nations that attempt to make strides in technology. Northern Gun is one of their strongest allies and they sell to the CS and are even incorperating NG advancements into their arms and armor.

Actually they do. They specifically state that they do in the RUE and in SB1. They state, very clearly, that any nation which has more advanced technology than them is seen as a threat and if they cannot have the technology themselves they will take it by force. That is stifling.

Note four. Dogboys aren't enslaved. The Lone star book goes to great extents to make this clear. They willingly serve, even often when given the chance not to.

They are indoctrinated and grown to serve. That isn't willingly. They think it is willing. It isn't.

Note five, sort of a wrap around to note one. The psychics, psistalkers and dog boys are not third class citizens. Doy boys are considered 'animals' but arte much beloved by both the military and even more so by the citizens.

And yet that doesn't make them citizens. A beloved dog is still a dog. It doesn't have a right to vote, change things, or tell the CS to go take a long walk off of a short pier. Since any Dogboy who DOES is hunted down and killed when possible that is not only below 3rd class citizen, it is ALSO a slave.

The psychics while back in SB1 (Non revised) Were written to have a bad shake, this has been changed in CWC (Put out over a decade ago) and more recently in HoH as heroes.

Some of them may be seen as heroes. So are some Dog Boys they are STILL not human. They are still not seen as human. They STILL cannot mate with humans, it was never reconned. Being omitted from a reprint for space doesn't retcon, a retcon would require them to specifically state that they now can. Can you provide me a page number where it says this is allowed now? They still can be barred from businesses in the CS and many of the STILL bar them. Not a few. Not a couple. Not the elite places. Many. Which means a significant enough number to be an actual issue for Psychics.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Minor note. CWC and then the recent HoH book have pretty much retaconned the thing on Psychics. The new book states that psychics are seen as heroes and what not now, and utalized highly.

And that doesn't mean they aren't 3rd class citizens. The current core book, RUE, states that they are SPECIFICALLY seen as "not really" human. They are STILL third class citizens. While they may be TRYING to change it, they haven't yet. That is just your head canon.

No.. It's been published.. in the books.. you know.. written about the CS. First in CWC, and then again in HoH. Yes, the CS back 25 years ago was written like that, but in that time we've had new books. The time line has progressed and the books tell us that this is no longer true. Even back in the original they wern't 'Third class citizens' less than half of the psychis were even tattooed and chipped. You're exaggerating as you've been doing so for a week or more now, to make it sound worse than it really is.

Note two. Tolkeen wasn't FORCED to go evil. They chose to go evil. There was years of military build up in which tolkeen could have fled or hidden. That was a choice. One of many.

Flee your home, where you have been for a couple generations, or be destroyed. That isn't really a choice.

Of course it is. It's not a good choice. Nor an evil choice but it's a choice. Might as well say "Flee the hurricane or be destroyed" Everyone on earth knew how the war would turn out. Tolkeen was -told- by everyone how it'd turn out. Even their 'friends' like Lazlo, told them exactly how it'd turn out. Tolkeen chose instead of running and surviving or hiding and surviving, to -willingly embrace evil- and fight. That was their choice.

You can't be 'forced' to be evil. You have a choice. Sometimes that choice is to yes. Run away or .. even worse.. DIE.... vs embracing and or becoming evil, but it's still a choice. You can maintain being 'good'.

For example.. someone breaks into your house. Puts a gun to your head and says "Go choke three kids on the playground down the street to death, or die"

You have a choice to make. You have different choices you can choose. 1) Do as your told, going and killng three kids on the playground. I.E. Embracing evil. 2) Refuse, and die. Or 3) Try and fight/escape and maybe still die.

Tolkeens choice wasn't even THAT bad. Their situation "Someone's said that they're going to come kill you. You have choices. 1) Run. Sucks but it's a choice. 2) Hide. Sucks that you might have to, but it's a choice. 3) Fight honorably and likely die. Sucks too, but it's a choice. or.. 4) Embrace evil to try and get power enough to win, and fight. Sucks too. But a choice.

Tolkeen CHOSE the 4th. it sucks. The situation was IN NO WAY a happy or good one, but they had more than just one choice. People acting like they don't are refusing to look at the entire situation.

Note three. They don't stifle other nations that attempt to make strides in technology. Northern Gun is one of their strongest allies and they sell to the CS and are even incorperating NG advancements into their arms and armor.

Actually they do. They specifically state that they do in the RUE and in SB1. They state, very clearly, that any nation which has more advanced technology than them is seen as a threat and if they cannot have the technology themselves they will take it by force. That is stifling.

Part of the problem might be you're using books decades old, and or out of relevance.

Note four. Dogboys aren't enslaved. The Lone star book goes to great extents to make this clear. They willingly serve, even often when given the chance not to.

They are indoctrinated and grown to serve. That isn't willingly. They think it is willing. It isn't.

Sad to disagree but this point is -specifically- addressed, -at length- in Lone Star. The information we have says you're 100% wrong.

Note five, sort of a wrap around to note one. The psychics, psistalkers and dog boys are not third class citizens. Doy boys are considered 'animals' but arte much beloved by both the military and even more so by the citizens.

And yet that doesn't make them citizens.

Depends on what your definition of citizen is I suppose. how are you defining 'Citizen'?

A beloved dog is still a dog. It doesn't have a right to vote, change things, or tell the CS to go take a long walk off of a short pier.

Not sure any CS Citizen has that right. Do they?

Since any Dogboy who DOES is hunted down and killed when possible that is not only below 3rd class citizen, it is ALSO a slave.

Nope. Dog boys aren't hunted down. If they run, they tend to be let run. It's not worth it to chase them. If they come back. Most of the time they were let back.

Now with HoH. ALL Dog boys (Even feral born) and other mutant animals are WELCOMED back. All sins forgiven. So... There's that

The psychics while back in SB1 (Non revised) Were written to have a bad shake, this has been changed in CWC (Put out over a decade ago) and more recently in HoH as heroes.

Some of them may be seen as heroes. So are some Dog Boys they are STILL not human. They are still not seen as human. They STILL cannot mate with humans, it was never reconned.

Pretty sure that dog boys aren't capiable of mating with humans, but you're likely correct. Out side of underground fetish clubs. If a dog boy was caught having sex with a human.. Dog boy is likely to be killed and human inprosioned if not killed.

To be fair it's not legal to have sex with YOUR dog either.

Being omitted from a reprint for space doesn't retcon, a retcon would require them to specifically state that they now can.

That's a clear dodge. it WAS taken out of SB1 Revised, more over, CWC doesn't mention it. and HoH Doesn't mention it and both of them have advanced the time line (Twice now) and put psychics to a more prominant role.

if you want to stick to old information 20+ years in the past, when there's been tons and tons of new information you can. But I'll use the new information myself.

Can you provide me a page number where it says this is allowed now? They still can be barred from businesses in the CS and many of the STILL bar them. Not a few. Not a couple. Not the elite places. Many. Which means a significant enough number to be an actual issue for Psychics.

It's not an actual issue. Less than half the psychics are coded. of the 25% of the population only 10% are chipped and tattooed.

"Many" is less than half of all places would persecute against them. If it was half they'd have said half. If it was more they'd have said 'Most'.

So you have 10% of the population being unwanted or watched closely at less than half of places.

I wouldn't like it too much, but it's not that big a deal.

More over THAT information is older, and the new information indicates that psychics are seen as heroes and such now. So no. I don't see it as a problem.

[HWalsh]

"Many" is less than half of all places would persecute against them. If it was half they'd have said half. If it was more they'd have said 'Most'.

So you have 10% of the population being unwanted or watched closely at less than half of places.

I wouldn't like it too much, but it's not that big a deal.

More over THAT information is older, and the new information indicates that psychics are seen as heroes and such now. So no. I don't see it as a problem.

noun
plural noun: many
1.
the majority of people. "music for the many"
synonyms: people, common people, masses, multitude, populace, public, rank and file, proletariat, mob; More
antonyms: few


So yeah. Most can mean "greater than half" so, no. Your argument is not iron clad.

[HWalsh]

Flee your home, where you have been for a couple generations, or be destroyed. That isn't really a choice.

Of course it is. It's not a good choice. Nor an evil choice but it's a choice. Might as well say "Flee the hurricane or be destroyed" Everyone on earth knew how the war would turn out. Tolkeen was -told- by everyone how it'd turn out. Even their 'friends' like Lazlo, told them exactly how it'd turn out. Tolkeen chose instead of running and surviving or hiding and surviving, to -willingly embrace evil- and fight. That was their choice.

You can't be 'forced' to be evil. You have a choice. Sometimes that choice is to yes. Run away or .. even worse.. DIE.... vs embracing and or becoming evil, but it's still a choice. You can maintain being 'good'.

For example.. someone breaks into your house. Puts a gun to your head and says "Go choke three kids on the playground down the street to death, or die"

You have a choice to make. You have different choices you can choose. 1) Do as your told, going and killng three kids on the playground. I.E. Embracing evil. 2) Refuse, and die. Or 3) Try and fight/escape and maybe still die.

Tolkeens choice wasn't even THAT bad. Their situation "Someone's said that they're going to come kill you. You have choices. 1) Run. Sucks but it's a choice. 2) Hide. Sucks that you might have to, but it's a choice. 3) Fight honorably and likely die. Sucks too, but it's a choice. or.. 4) Embrace evil to try and get power enough to win, and fight. Sucks too. But a choice.

Tolkeen CHOSE the 4th. it sucks. The situation was IN NO WAY a happy or good one, but they had more than just one choice. People acting like they don't are refusing to look at the entire situation.

Then. By that logic. The average CS citizen is evil.

By not rising up to depose Prosek. Who they have been told is evil. They are evil.

Why?

They have been told by Deebees, and through the writings of Erin Tarn that the CS is evil. They have been told by the CS that these are lies.

They choose to believe the CS. That is a choice. They choose to follow someone they have been told is evil. That is their choice. It is a bad choice, to follow evil, but they made it.

Of course that is a silly argument. Just as saying that Tolkeen should have tried not to defend themselves. You are absolving the CS of their actions which is what scared Tolkeen into making that choice in the first place. The CS literally rolled into Tolkeen's rightful territory and said, "This is ours now. We are going to kill you all."

The blame doesn't fall squarely on Tolkeen there.

[Pepsi Jedi]

"Many" is less than half of all places would persecute against them. If it was half they'd have said half. If it was more they'd have said 'Most'.

So you have 10% of the population being unwanted or watched closely at less than half of places.

I wouldn't like it too much, but it's not that big a deal.

More over THAT information is older, and the new information indicates that psychics are seen as heroes and such now. So no. I don't see it as a problem.

noun
plural noun: many
1.
the majority of people. "music for the many"
synonyms: people, common people, masses, multitude, populace, public, rank and file, proletariat, mob; More
antonyms: few


So yeah. Most can mean "greater than half" so, no. Your argument is not iron clad.

Which is cute, but you're using the definition of many as a noun. Not a determiner, pronoun, & adjective.

Which amusingly enough, is ABOVE the definition you jumped to. When used as an adjective, as in the usage in THIS CASE, is defined as 'A large number of'

I have google too. You chose to use the wrong definition there.

[HWalsh]

"Many" is less than half of all places would persecute against them. If it was half they'd have said half. If it was more they'd have said 'Most'.

So you have 10% of the population being unwanted or watched closely at less than half of places.

I wouldn't like it too much, but it's not that big a deal.

More over THAT information is older, and the new information indicates that psychics are seen as heroes and such now. So no. I don't see it as a problem.

noun
plural noun: many
1.
the majority of people. "music for the many"
synonyms: people, common people, masses, multitude, populace, public, rank and file, proletariat, mob; More
antonyms: few


So yeah. Most can mean "greater than half" so, no. Your argument is not iron clad.

Which is cute, but you're using the definition of many as a noun. Not a determiner, pronoun, & adjective.

Which amusingly enough, is ABOVE the definition you jumped to. When used as an adjective, as in the usage in THIS CASE, is defined as 'A large number of'

I have google too. You chose to use the wrong definition there.

*Sigh*

You know what. You win. The CS doesn't discriminate, they aren't racist, they are the epitome of sweetness and light. Just totally misunderstood.

*Shakes head*

[Pepsi Jedi]

Flee your home, where you have been for a couple generations, or be destroyed. That isn't really a choice.

Of course it is. It's not a good choice. Nor an evil choice but it's a choice. Might as well say "Flee the hurricane or be destroyed" Everyone on earth knew how the war would turn out. Tolkeen was -told- by everyone how it'd turn out. Even their 'friends' like Lazlo, told them exactly how it'd turn out. Tolkeen chose instead of running and surviving or hiding and surviving, to -willingly embrace evil- and fight. That was their choice.

You can't be 'forced' to be evil. You have a choice. Sometimes that choice is to yes. Run away or .. even worse.. DIE.... vs embracing and or becoming evil, but it's still a choice. You can maintain being 'good'.

For example.. someone breaks into your house. Puts a gun to your head and says "Go choke three kids on the playground down the street to death, or die"

You have a choice to make. You have different choices you can choose. 1) Do as your told, going and killng three kids on the playground. I.E. Embracing evil. 2) Refuse, and die. Or 3) Try and fight/escape and maybe still die.

Tolkeens choice wasn't even THAT bad. Their situation "Someone's said that they're going to come kill you. You have choices. 1) Run. Sucks but it's a choice. 2) Hide. Sucks that you might have to, but it's a choice. 3) Fight honorably and likely die. Sucks too, but it's a choice. or.. 4) Embrace evil to try and get power enough to win, and fight. Sucks too. But a choice.

Tolkeen CHOSE the 4th. it sucks. The situation was IN NO WAY a happy or good one, but they had more than just one choice. People acting like they don't are refusing to look at the entire situation.

Then. By that logic. The average CS citizen is evil.

By not rising up to depose Prosek. Who they have been told is evil. They are evil.

Ahhh nice try but not even remotely true in universe.

Why?

They have been told by Deebees, and through the writings of Erin Tarn that the CS is evil. They have been told by the CS that these are lies.

1) CS Citizens don't generally talk to Dbees.
2) CS Citizens don't generally know how to read
3) Of those CS citizens that do know how to read, most haven't read Erin's book
4) Of those that can read and have read Erin's book, they've grown up in a society that has painted her as public enemy number one, for most of their lives.

In Rifts earth, in the CS, Erin Tarn is a villainous seditionist who consorts with supernatural evil creatures. She's discredited by the state. To the CS.. .Erin tarn's book is like ISIS Propaganda videos. So ludicrous in application to even factor in. If you DO believe her viewpoints you're seen as a nutball.

The new book even goes into THIS aspect. On how the vast majority of CS Citizens do NOT talk to Dbees or anything. That's why they live in the CS. lol. Those that do have more contact with them are cops and the military and when the military has contact with them the DBees know the stuff's hitting the fan so the aggression level is high on both sides which naturally leads to the outcomes that are predicted. I.E. conflict.

They choose to believe the CS. That is a choice. They choose to follow someone they have been told is evil. That is their choice. It is a bad choice, to follow evil, but they made it.

But they haven't been told that. By and large those in the CS don't have access to the information you're discussing. Heck some of it's even illegal to HAVE. Even if they had, it'd be like ISIS telling you that the US is evil, and to go shoot up a school. THAT's how it's perceived in world man. You're skipping that part.

Of course that is a silly argument.

It's silly because your 'Given's' Aren't. They're untrue.

Just as saying that Tolkeen should have tried not to defend themselves

How is that silly? Literally (and I mean the word) EVERYONE Told Tolkeen ---exactly--- how that war would end. They were all correct. It ended exactly the way that everyone, even their friends told them it would end.

If you're a 90lbs weakling, and you get a phone call that THOR is going to come and destroy your house and kill you in 5 years. Everyone you know, friends and foes alike say "Dude, THOR is coming to destroy your house and kill you. You've got NO CHANCE. None. What so ever. You can move to a different city, or hide, but fighting thor will just get you killed"

if you choose to stay there, and fight him. Then your'e an idiot. Thor comes, and destroys your house and kills you. (Just like everyone told you he would)

If the person is too stupid to move, it's on them. Now THor is clearly not being a cool dude in this situation, but you were told, repeatedly what would happen, and it did.

So the SILLY aspect would be standing there and getting killed for nothing, when you COULD have moved or hidden.

Should you HAVE to move? No. Thor shouldn't be such a jerkwad, but if he's coming, jerkwad or not, and you stand there and get smooshed by his hammer. Then you're the silly one.

You are absolving the CS of their actions which is what scared Tolkeen into making that choice in the first place

Not at all. The CS were aggressive. But tolkeen let it's fear rule it and __MADE THAT CHOICE__. They had other choices they could have made. Did the situation suck? SURELY SO. Should they have had to make a choice? No. But seldom do things work as we hope they will. The choices were there. More than one. Run. Hide. Fight and retain honor and goodness(but still die).. or... dive face first into evil and fight(and still die) They chose the last one.

The CS literally rolled into Tolkeen's rightful territory and said, "This is ours now. We are going to kill you all."

The blame doesn't fall squarely on Tolkeen there.

The Earth is Humans territory. Tolkeen was an invading and occupying force of militants with armies of demons, and other supernatural monsters bolstering it's ranks including witches, neuron beasts, gargoyles, etc, and were -exactly- what CS Feared, and came rolling in to fight. They'd chosen to become that wich the CS feared.

though I do agree that the blame doesn't fall squarely on Tolkeen for the war itself. (The CS feared that Tolkeen was a magic nation ruled by an evil king, with evil armies.
Then, ironicly enough... Tolkeen became an evil kingdom, ruled by an evil king with evil armies, justifying the CS fears)

The blame for TOLKEEN DECIDING TO GO EVIL, does fall squarely on tolkeen, they had other choices. They didn't choose them. Again. "1)Run. 2) hide. 3) Fight and die while remaining good" Were three other viable options. Does that make them "FUN"? no. Options that tolkeen was going to like? no. But any one of them was 'better' than the option they chose. lol.

[Pepsi Jedi]

"Many" is less than half of all places would persecute against them. If it was half they'd have said half. If it was more they'd have said 'Most'.

So you have 10% of the population being unwanted or watched closely at less than half of places.

I wouldn't like it too much, but it's not that big a deal.

More over THAT information is older, and the new information indicates that psychics are seen as heroes and such now. So no. I don't see it as a problem.

noun
plural noun: many
1.
the majority of people. "music for the many"
synonyms: people, common people, masses, multitude, populace, public, rank and file, proletariat, mob; More
antonyms: few


So yeah. Most can mean "greater than half" so, no. Your argument is not iron clad.

Which is cute, but you're using the definition of many as a noun. Not a determiner, pronoun, & adjective.

Which amusingly enough, is ABOVE the definition you jumped to. When used as an adjective, as in the usage in THIS CASE, is defined as 'A large number of'

I have google too. You chose to use the wrong definition there.

*Sigh*

You know what. You win. The CS doesn't discriminate, they aren't racist, they are the epitome of sweetness and light. Just totally misunderstood.

*Shakes head*

I win because I'm right about the definition and caught you trying to skew it by using the wrong definition.

I've never said that they don't ever discriminate. They do. Just not as badly as you make out.

As for racist. It depends on your definition. There's no 'racism' in the CS (Pertaining to black people or Hispanic people etc). There's very much human supremacists, and persecution of aliens. But those are different species. So that depends on what you mean when you say it.
Nor have I said they're the epitome of sweetness and light. I know they do bad. PLENTY of bad. All nations do. The CS does more than MANY other nations. They're just not 100% bad, or 'Evil'. May in rifts earth see them as heroes. The minion war is just solidifying that in their eyes, more over, it's changing the minds of people who USED to think the CS were evil, into thinking the CS is good.

How do we know? *points* The book tells us that, for pages on end.

[HWalsh]

"Many" is less than half of all places would persecute against them. If it was half they'd have said half. If it was more they'd have said 'Most'.

So you have 10% of the population being unwanted or watched closely at less than half of places.

I wouldn't like it too much, but it's not that big a deal.

More over THAT information is older, and the new information indicates that psychics are seen as heroes and such now. So no. I don't see it as a problem.

noun
plural noun: many
1.
the majority of people. "music for the many"
synonyms: people, common people, masses, multitude, populace, public, rank and file, proletariat, mob; More
antonyms: few


So yeah. Most can mean "greater than half" so, no. Your argument is not iron clad.

Which is cute, but you're using the definition of many as a noun. Not a determiner, pronoun, & adjective.

Which amusingly enough, is ABOVE the definition you jumped to. When used as an adjective, as in the usage in THIS CASE, is defined as 'A large number of'

I have google too. You chose to use the wrong definition there.

*Sigh*

You know what. You win. The CS doesn't discriminate, they aren't racist, they are the epitome of sweetness and light. Just totally misunderstood.

*Shakes head*

I win because I'm right about the definition and caught you trying to skew it by using the wrong definition.

I've never said that they don't ever discriminate. They do. Just not as badly as you make out.

As for racist. It depends on your definition. There's no 'racism' in the CS (Pertaining to black people or Hispanic people etc). There's very much human supremacists, and persecution of aliens. But those are different species. So that depends on what you mean when you say it.
Nor have I said they're the epitome of sweetness and light. I know they do bad. PLENTY of bad. All nations do. The CS does more than MANY other nations. They're just not 100% bad, or 'Evil'. May in rifts earth see them as heroes. The minion war is just solidifying that in their eyes, more over, it's changing the minds of people who USED to think the CS were evil, into thinking the CS is good.

How do we know? *points* The book tells us that, for pages on end.

No. I think you're making them out far nicer than they are. In your world "many" businesses means like next to none.

Regardless. You think your way. I'll think mine.

In your world they're good guys. In mine they're Nazis.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No. I think you're making them out far nicer than they are. In your world "many" businesses means like next to none.

Regardless. You think your way. I'll think mine.

In your world they're good guys. In mine they're Nazis.

No. In my world 'Many' Means less than half, more than a few.

I also can look at the numbers and see that at most, it would be less than half the businesses, that may persecute 10% or less of the population, and that's only if you use the out dated material and ignore not one, but two newer books that say other wise.

That you think they're Nazi's is very clear though.

In my world the CS are both good and Evil. at the same time. As they're presented in the books.

[Blue_Lion]

I think this is more than done it was not suppose to be a debate about the meaning of X word just a list of the good and bad you see in the CS.

(Many to me is more than a few less than all. Many can be over half, less than half or 99% it is a vague word.)

[eliakon]

The claim that "earth is humans territory" is the EXACT sort of propaganda that makes the whole CS blatantly evil. Seriously, it is a pure, total lie that is then used to justify things that it doesn't even have relevance to if it were true, which it isnt'

Lets start with the minor fact that the TRUTH is that earth has NEVER been a planet of just humans. EVER! It is explicitly stated over and over again that there are multiple races that ALSO call earth home. Besides the Red Giants (who are also earth natives), the Chaing-Ku dragons were native to earth at LEAST several thousand years before humans started building settlements. There are at least TWO 'demonic' races that are ALSO native to earth. The claim is just trying to justify the CS position by claiming that its lies are truth and that therefore it is justified. Lies are still lies, even if repeated many times.

Then there is the FACT that Tolkeen was NOT aliens, it was humans too. It was lead by a human who explicitly said "yes, we allow people to live here" the CS argued that it, and it alone gets to define what is human, and who has the right to land. And that since it defined itself as the sole heir to the entire earth that it has the right to kill anyone that disagrees with it. This is the EXACT same argument that was used to justify the extermination campaings against the Native Americans since the land 'belonged' to the whites...

We could also point out that it is a FACT that magic existed before the coming of the rifts. This is an incontrovertible fact that is not just officially a game fact, but is mentioned in SEVERAL places as being known to the pre-rifts people (Victor Lazlo is a good start, though the Atlantians, Nazcan, Lemurians, Native Americans, SEVERAL pantheons of gods, et multiple cetera)

Then there is the fact that in Rifts the gods and the ancient religions? Yeah, they are TRUE. You can pretend otherwise but the TRUTH is that they existed, they were real, and that they were a part of human history.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The claim that "earth is humans territory" is the EXACT sort of propaganda that makes the whole CS blatantly evil. Seriously, it is a pure, total lie that is then used to justify things that it doesn't even have relevance to if it were true, which it isnt'

It's not a lie though. It's true. Even the atlantenians are descendant of humans.

Lets start with the minor fact that the TRUTH is that earth has NEVER been a planet of just humans. EVER!

Because you say so. *looks around* looks like just us to me. lol. Even in rifts for thousands of years previous it was just humans. The occasional traveler or what not swung through but it was very much the human's planet.

It is explicitly stated over and over again that there are multiple races that ALSO call earth home.

Sure. Now. That they've invaded and are squatting. That's why they're called "Dimensional beings" They're from... you know. other dimensions and planets.

Besides the Red Giants (who are also earth natives),

Source?

the Chaing-Ku dragons were native to earth at LEAST several thousand years before humans started building settlements.

*Opens rifts England* This says that's not true. Page 46 says they're experienced dimensional travelers, and that they VISITED earth 10,000 years ago and found it to be a tiny quiet refuge and a few thousand years later they adopted it as a home away from home.
Humans have been around for about 2.5 million years and evolved here. Not found the place 10,000 years ago. There's homo sapien skeletons dating 200,000 years back. There were humans in North America 50,000 years ago.
There are human settlements found on the sea floor off the cost of india at leas 32,000 years old.

Your claim is... well invalid on a number of points.

There are at least TWO 'demonic' races that are ALSO native to earth.

Again, source please? The one i knew where to find was grossly incorrect so I'd need to read the others to see to their veracity.

The claim is just trying to justify the CS position by claiming that its lies are truth and that therefore it is justified. Lies are still lies, even if repeated many times.

Well at least one of your claims was grossly untrue (The dragons) So.... that's sort of a harsh thing to be throwing out there. While.. expounding untruth. Yeah?

Then there is the FACT that Tolkeen was NOT aliens, it was humans too.

It was both. Dimensional beings are by default aliens as they're not from THIS planet. They come from other planets in other dimensions. yes there's human mages there as well but all the Dbees and demons were still present. You can't just ignore them. You know the literal armies of thousands of demons they busted out of demon prison and armed with TW stuff to come fight for them, and all the other 'things'.

It was lead by a human who explicitly said "yes, we allow people to live here" the CS argued that it, and it alone gets to define what is human, and who has the right to land.

Yes. The humans said that earth was theirs, and backed their claim with force. Same way all land is protected from the dawn of history. Right?

And that since it defined itself as the sole heir to the entire earth that it has the right to kill anyone that disagrees with it.

Which again, is the same way every nation on Earth, defends it's land and borders. Yes?

This is the EXACT same argument that was used to justify the extermination campaings against the Native Americans since the land 'belonged' to the whites...

Wouldn't "Humans" be the "native americans" on earth when other dimensional beings showed upo through the rifts? Not really sure how you can claim both sides here....

We could also point out that it is a FACT that magic existed before the coming of the rifts.

So? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Magic isn't by it's nature a person.

This is an incontrovertible fact that is not just officially a game fact, but is mentioned in SEVERAL places as being known to the pre-rifts people (Victor Lazlo is a good start, though the Atlantians, Nazcan, Lemurians, Native Americans, SEVERAL pantheons of gods, et multiple cetera)

That magic existed at some point in the past isn't in question. It's outlawed by a human nation. Same as some outlaw guns and others outlaw slavery. That's policy.

Then there is the fact that in Rifts the gods and the ancient religions? Yeah, they are TRUE. You can pretend otherwise but the TRUTH is that they existed, they were real, and that they were a part of human history.

Ehh.. They're true-ish. In palladium the gods aren't actually "GODS" They're more or less powerful alien beings that are worshiped like gods. I mean they're gods. they're described as stuff but not gods in ther traditional sense. They're moderately powerful alien beings. I can take out Thor with a couple of platoons of CS infantry.

But they're not 'native' to earth either. They're dimensional travelers who came to earth and due to their magical power were worshiped like gods.

[eliakon]

The Purca Red Giants in South America explicitly say that they are from earth, sorry.

The Chinese demons AND the Oni of Japan are also said to be native to our planet with the Chinese hells, demons gods and all existing as a PART of China. They are not 'dimensional travelers' they are actually part of Japan. The Native American pantheon is the same way (at least one of their gods IS a native American human who accended, making the claim that they are an invader ludicrous as they were a human resident of NA for THOUSANDS of years before the CS showed up...)

And then there is the awkward question of who is squatting where... I mean if someone lived in North America for ten thousand years + then its sort of a false claim that someone who showed up a hundred or so years ago has a better claim to the continent because they are human... But hey, lebensraum and all that right?

Like I said, its a false propaganda put out by the CS that is based on a lie. Its a seductive lie that is easy to parrot but it is still a lie.

The CS can claim that magic is new, and it is corrupt and that it should be banned, and that therefor they are justified in returning the earth to the way it was... but its a false claim.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Do you have page numbers on the Red giants and Demons you're claiming are native? I'd rather not have to read entire books looking for the varfications.

As for the Dragons. None of the dragons from 10,000 years ago are still living here, but even if they were, the claim to them being native is clearly incorrect as the book says they're not.

As for Humans accending, that doesn't make the gods native. That's a human that has mutated or changed into something else, but was still human first.

I'll check out the red giants and Demons you're claiming are native but with out reading it and seeing it claimed, the chances are they might be like the dragons you've claimed are native. I'll surely give you the benifit of the doubt. Can you toss me the page numbers so I can see that you're correct?

[eliakon]

Do you have page numbers on the Red giants and Demons you're claiming are native? I'd rather not have to read entire books looking for the varfications.

SA 2 page 52 says that the origins of the Purca are not known, but that they may have evolved on earth.
Which is a bit of a problem if one claims that Earth is only for humans....

As for the Dragons. None of the dragons from 10,000 years ago are still living here, but even if they were, the claim to them being native is clearly incorrect as the book says they're not.

None of the humans from 10,000 years ago is living here either, that doesn't mean squat.
But my claim is that the argument that Earth has only been for humans until the coming of the rifts let in squatters is patently false. But by this argument then all white people should be removed from North America as they are just interlopers right?
Or does tenancy only count when its Humans invading?

As for Humans accending, that doesn't make the gods native. That's a human that has mutated or changed into something else, but was still human first.

That is your personal opinion. Got a page reference though?
Because the POINT is that the gods are part and parcel of human civilization from before there WAS a civilization, so the claim that they have no right to be here is false.
Not to mention that if she is human, then she BY HER SELF proves that the claim that the gods are intruders is false.

I'll check out the red giants and Demons you're claiming are native but with out reading it and seeing it claimed, the chances are they might be like the dragons you've claimed are native. I'll surely give you the benifit of the doubt. Can you toss me the page numbers so I can see that you're correct?

Rifts China 1 talks a LOT about the Chinese demons, and how they are a part of China, to the point where the souls of the dead are part of the system. Which sort of suggests that since HUMAN SOULS are the foundation of the system, that it is part of humanity. Or I guess maybe the Chinese just sort of added souls to humans after they invaded?


As I have said, the claim that the Earth is property of Humans is patently, and proveably false.
Besides the problem of the fact that there are KNOWN non-human residents going back 10,000+ years which means that the CS is arguing that a naturalized resident who has been on earth 100x as long as the CS has existed have less right to their homes than the CS does...
Which is basically saying that they get to decide who has property rights, and who gets to die...because they said they did.
Which, sorry, is a good definition of Evil.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Do you have page numbers on the Red giants and Demons you're claiming are native? I'd rather not have to read entire books looking for the varfications.

SA 2 page 52 says that the origins of the Purca are not known, but that they may have evolved on earth.
Which is a bit of a problem if one claims that Earth is only for humans....

It also says they could have come from another dimension. As noone knows if they evolved on earth and noone has proof they evolved on earth, it's at very best a possiblity but unproven. As an unproven possibility one cannot render it as 'fact' to disporve something. Sorry

As for the Dragons. None of the dragons from 10,000 years ago are still living here, but even if they were, the claim to them being native is clearly incorrect as the book says they're not.

None of the humans from 10,000 years ago is living here either, that doesn't mean squat.

*Points to the CS* Unbroken line of humanity. The humans that evolved on earth still live on earth as a race. Perhaps an endangered species, but still present.

But my claim is that the argument that Earth has only been for humans until the coming of the rifts let in squatters is patently false.

No You claimed many other beings where here first or at the same time. The dragon's weren't. their write up clearly said they were dimensional travelers that liked the planet when they found it. Well after humans had evolved.

But by this argument then all white people should be removed from North America as they are just interlopers right?

One could certinly make that argument if they tried, but that's speaking of skin color. Skin color isn't actually a difference in speices. Black humans and white humans are still human and can inner breed.

Or does tenancy only count when its Humans invading?

White people ARE human. Some may argue the point but scientificly we are.

As for Humans accending, that doesn't make the gods native. That's a human that has mutated or changed into something else, but was still human first.

That is your personal opinion. Got a page reference though?

I'm going from your post. You said one of their gods was human and then ascended. *Shrugs* Unless you told an untruth there.

Because the POINT is that the gods are part and parcel of human civilization from before there WAS a civilization, so the claim that they have no right to be here is false.

The gods didn't evolve here. They like others are dimensional travelers, and squatters on our (Humans) Planet. In Palladium the gods are represented as medium-high level aliens. If you put them up beside Say sploogorith, they're not impressive at all. Again I could take down Thor with a few platoons of CS troops. "Gods" they were called but "Godly" They're not really so much in Palladium.

Not to mention that if she is human, then she BY HER SELF proves that the claim that the gods are intruders is false.

No. She 'was' human. She became something else. Even if you give her grandfathered status as an Earthling, the rest wouldnt have it.

I'll check out the red giants and Demons you're claiming are native but with out reading it and seeing it claimed, the chances are they might be like the dragons you've claimed are native. I'll surely give you the benifit of the doubt. Can you toss me the page numbers so I can see that you're correct?

Rifts China 1 talks a LOT about the Chinese demons, and how they are a part of China, to the point where the souls of the dead are part of the system. Which sort of suggests that since HUMAN SOULS are the foundation of the system, that it is part of humanity. Or I guess maybe the Chinese just sort of added souls to humans after they invaded?

Well if you give me page numbers I'll look, but so far you're wrong two for two, with the Dragons and the Red Giants.

I don't know EVERYTHING about Rifts. I know alot about rifts. I'm always willing to expand my knowledge. For example. SA II is such an utterly crappy book I've hardly read it in years and years and years except parts I need to check in discussions like this one. To see if other people's claims are true. Or how it might effect discussions I"m in. (For the record SA1 sucked too)

In this case though the Dragons you claimed were native were not. The Red giants you claimed were native might just as easily be dimensional travlers and 'noone knows' which is NOT a difinative answer.

So if you could toss me the pages on the chinese demons I'll read up on those too. (For the record, the two china books are not much beloved by me either. Thus I don't know the area's to look myself. I thought they were pretty crappy too, but i'll be more than happy to read the pages if offered.

As I have said, the claim that the Earth is property of Humans is patently, and proveably false.

But... You've yet to prove anything. The sources you've cited have been debunked. (You've yet to give pages for the chinese ones, those might be right but you're not batting reall well here)

Besides the problem of the fact that there are KNOWN non-human residents going back 10,000+ years which means that the CS is arguing that a naturalized resident who has been on earth 100x as long as the CS has existed have less right to their homes than the CS does...

Humans go back further. We evolved on earth. The rest are undocumented illegal aliens. (Literally! lol)

Which is basically saying that they get to decide who has property rights, and who gets to die...because they said they did.
Which, sorry, is a good definition of Evil.

No. that's the only way property rights have ever been given out. Governments take power by force. Hold power by force and dictate their laws which are in all cases, backed by force. Property lines are imaginary things created by humans for the purpose of claiming parts of the earth, and are only enforceable.. by force, that force either comes at the end of a weapon or from the government, whom again, enforces laws, via.... force.

Earth belongs to humans because we evolved here and rose to prominence as a sapient species. Others have visited 'our' planet from time to time and in the past 300 years (In rifts time line) Our planet has been invaded, but the resistance still exists and is fighting to retake all of our planet from those invaders. The CS, and the NGR both exist to do this (and aren't that different from one another)

The NGR just don't have black uniforms.

[HWalsh]

There is so much wrong with defending the idea that the CS are just people defending their homes that I literally get sick to my stomach during these threads at times.

First of all... To debunk the idea that Karl Prose just believes he's protecting people...

CWC P. 214 - "Karl Prosek is an evil meglomaniac who's every action is motivated by his lust for power, fame, and glory."

So there is that.

Then there is the whole, "Kill all magic users because the FoM once almost did something to me! They also kidnapped my wife!"

I mean she was saved by the Cyber-Knights but you know, forget those guys and their freaky powers. They use TW items so they're part of the problem.

Tolkeen was a sovereign nation that the CS threatened and invaded. They did *not* attack the CS first. The CS committed horrible war crimes during SoT that would make the Hitler say, "Oh very nice, jah I like how zees Coalition people sink."

Seeing every other sentient species as evil is evil in and of itself. To even fathom that the CS higher ups would really think that indicates that they have to be intellectually deficient with the critical thinking skills of a toddler.

"Magic is evil because possible demon summoning!"
"What about magic users who don't summon demons?"
"Shut up!"
"What about MD weapons. A human with an MD weapon killed my friend. That means MD weapons are bad and all humans who use them should be put to death, right?"
"No! MD weapons are different!"
"How so?"
"They just are!"
"Uh huh."
"I got attacked by a dog once. Does that mean we ban all people from having dogs?"
"No! Of course not!"
"Then why kill all people who use magic?"
"Because magic isn't safe!"
"Tolkeen was ok until we started threatening them. Lazlo seems pretty stable. Don't Cyber-Knights use magic too? Aren't they regarded as heroes? Even by us? I mean I heard they even have Deebee Cyber..."
*Zorrkh*
"Anyone else wanna ask any questions? I'd ask that loudmouth but he don't have a head anymore. So let me, and my MD pistol, make it real clear. Magic is bad because I say it's bad. The next person that says otherwise gets to join Sleepy Hallow over there."

[Pepsi Jedi]

There is so much wrong with defending the idea that the CS are just people defending their homes that I literally get sick to my stomach during these threads at times.

Then you might want to take a step back, buddy. You're too invested. This is a talk... on a small internet forums board... about a RPG, with a realitvly small player base.

In essense we're a few RPG geeks sitting around BS'ing about a game we've played for like 30 years. But it's a game. We're just geeks. It's nothing to get physically ill over.

First of all... To debunk the idea that Karl Prose just believes he's protecting people...

It's not that he thinks he's "JUST" protecting people. it's that he honestly beleives magic and Dbees are a threat to humans. They've proven in every way they possibly could, to he and the CS that he's correct.

CWC P. 214 - "Karl Prosek is an evil meglomaniac who's every action is motivated by his lust for power, fame, and glory."

So there is that.

Then there is the whole, "Kill all magic users because the FoM once almost did something to me! They also kidnapped my wife!"

No no. Lets be clear. the FoM didn't 'ALMOST' do anything.the FoM invaded the fledling CS and almost took out humanity. Killing huge portions of the CS. the CS barely rallied and pushed them back. You're minimalizing history to try and white wash it there.

They still hate and prey on the CS when ever possible.

I mean she was saved by the Cyber-Knights but you know, forget those guys and their freaky powers. They use TW items so they're part of the problem.

Right, forget when a nation of DBees and magic users almost wipe out the CS. Forget it when they kidnap your wife. That's easy to get over. Right? I mean. It's such a kind and forgiving world.

Tolkeen was a sovereign nation that the CS threatened and invaded.

They were an occupying invasion force, in the eyes of the CS. Not a 'sovereign nation'.

They did *not* attack the CS first.

They were occupying land on the Human's planet and posed a threat to the CS and humanity. The CS perceived this threat. By the time the CS showed up to take care of this threat. Tolkeen, had MANIFESTED exactly what the CS feared.. sadly, proving the CS"s fears about tolkeen 100% correct.

The CS committed horrible war crimes during SoT that would make the Hitler say, "Oh very nice, jah I like how zees Coalition people sink."

1) That's an exaggeration that you should feel guilty about. If you get sick to your stomach reading fourms boards about fictional things, belitteling and minimizing the plight of those in REAL HONEST TO GOD Concentration caps and slaughter and genocide IN REAL LIFE, by saying that fiction is worse, is ... pretty bad.

2) Palladium, by and large is written as a 'pg' thing for 12 to 14 year olds. Only rarely does it slip past PG into PG13 or R.. I can count the number of times on one hand that I've actually blinked and went 'Wow. Hardcore' ( one of them is from the upcoming Disavowed book. So stay tuned.) The 'atrocities' in the SoT book were so general and lightly written as to not be 'that bad'. Even their detention camps were written to be not all that bad. Sure. I wouldn't want to be locked up in one but they are not even on the same plane of reality.... compaired to real life Nazi camps.

Frankly you should be ashamed of having written that Walsh.

Moving past that shockingly gross under appreciation for the horrors that REAL LIVE Nazi's actually committed against real life people....

Both sides committed horrible crimes during the SoT. The books were so extremely clear as to that point, that if you missed it your'e either purposefully telling untruths or didn't read the books. BOTH sides were presented as horrible during the war.

Seeing every other sentient species as evil is evil in and of itself.

No it's a mis-perception. It's not evil. In Rifts, it's a survival trait.
While the CS is wrong in that. it's not an 'evil' outlook. It's a matter of fear and perception.

To even fathom that the CS higher ups would really think that indicates that they have to be intellectually deficient with the critical thinking skills of a toddler.

No it means you fail to comprehend the horror and devistation that befel the earth when everything happened with the coming of Rifts and the utter PREDATION of the human race for literally 300 years after it by things supernatural and alien. Literal armies of demons have shown up to LITERALLY try and transform our planet into a hellworld from which they hope to take over the megaverse.

The CS's reaction to the supernatural, magic and the alien invaders is not intellectually deficicent. If anything. It's more moderated than what we would actually do.

"Magic is evil because possible demon summoning!"
"What about magic users who don't summon demons?"

This is explained in the books. The theory is that using magic even for 'good' makes you more suseptable to corruption. That by it's nature, magic corrupts and once you start down that path, the corruption takes hold and leads to further corruption. It's seen as like embracing a disease or something. The usage of it, even with good intent, opens you up to such things.

It doesn't help that by and large, they're not 100% wrong. Power does tend to corrupt. And many are the evil wizards out there that learn magic for that exact reason. To dominate, destroy and enslave.

"Shut up!"
"What about MD weapons. A human with an MD weapon killed my friend. That means MD weapons are bad and all humans who use them should be put to death, right?"
"No! MD weapons are different!"
"How so?"
"They just are!"
"Uh huh."

For the most part, people aren't allowed to carry military weapons with more power than a battle tank inside CS cities either.

"I got attacked by a dog once. Does that mean we ban all people from having dogs?"
"No! Of course not!"

Have you ever spoken to people that got bit by a dog? Many would redialy agree with that over reaction. The fear remains.

But remember, it wasn't just 'I was attacked by a Dbee once"

it was "BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of humans died when magic tore the planet asunder and rifts disgorged these alien invaders on earth. for 200 years the 'dark ages' these things preyed on humanity mostly unchecked. Millions if not billions more fell to these predations. Not just 'I was bit once' but My grandfather fought the demons, his father fought the demons, his father before him. For 200 years. Humanity had to hide and cower and run and flee supernatural predators.. aliens who could rip your arms off. Literal evil dragons dropping down from the sky to eat you or your wife. On and on and on and on. For the last 300 years time in Rifts earth, this has been a -constant-. It's not just one guy getting bitten by one dog. It's the entire human race facing an extinction level event, and having to claw it's way back from that nadir.

MANY people bitten by a dog ONCE, hate dogs for the rest of their lives. Humanity has been pryed upon for the 200 years of the dark ages and .. for the last 100 years since they've started to claw their way back. 300 years. A generation is 20 to 25 years. That's 12 to 15 GENERATIONS of humanity having to combat supernatural, alien and magical threats, least humanity be wiped from the face of the earth. Not 12 to 15 years... 12 to 15 generations.

So if you're alive 'now' in rifts earth, you've faced this. Your father Your grandfather. His father, his father, his father, his father, his father, his father, his father, his father, his father, his father, his father, and his father, have faced these horrors, for their entire lives.

Think about how old the US is as a country. Then look at the cominmg of rifts and realize that humanity has faced these horrors longer than that.

That's a good deal more than 'I got nipped by a poodle once'.

"Then why kill all people who use magic?"
"Because magic isn't safe!"
"Tolkeen was ok until we started threatening them. Lazlo seems pretty stable. Don't Cyber-Knights use magic too? Aren't they regarded as heroes? Even by us? I mean I heard they even have Deebee Cyber..."

Tolkeen went pure evil. Bad example. Tolkeen went SO evil that they broke Demon prisoners out of demon prison and armed them. Take a moment to contemplate that. Demons so bad OTHER demons locked them away, and tolkeen not only freed them, but strengthened them arming them with techno wizard devices....

If a nation of 'Peaceful mages' could go that evil, isn't it proof of the CS's words? They did so with a rapdiity that is shocking. About 5 to 8 years if memory serves from "Peaceful nation" to literally fielding ARMIES of supernatural demons broken out of demon prison to fight and kill humanity.

Wow.

*Zorrkh*
"Anyone else wanna ask any questions? I'd ask that loudmouth but he don't have a head anymore. So let me, and my MD pistol, make it real clear. Magic is bad because I say it's bad. The next person that says otherwise gets to join Sleepy Hallow over there."

In Rifts earth, Might often makes right. But that's hardly regulated to rifts earth. That's how humanity has functioned since the first human picked up a rock and brained someone he didn't like. Every nation enforces it's policies by force. If they can't, they're taken over by othern ations that can.

With in the nations the laws are enforced by force as well "Obey our laws or be locked up foceably against your will. Resist this and you're killed. Break the wrong laws and we'll just kill you."

And that's in the US. An enlightened country.

To pretned other wise is absurd.

[HWalsh]

Number one Pepsi:

The daemonix weren't imprisoned because they were so bad. Re-read your SoT books. The daemonix were imprisoned because they were so weak and pathetic that the other demons did it simply because they could do it. This is the second time I have seen you insinuate that the Daemonix were some kind of mega criminal of Hell that was so evil they had to be locked up. The books clearly state that they were the weakest of the weak and were so much fail that they were imprisoned. Part of this was because they couldn't use magic. So the Daemonix were actually an oppressed sentient minority.

You also skipped the part where the CS, again, forgets that the Cyber-Knights, known heroes, also use TW items frequently. Using magic is actually part of their bag. These were the same people who risked life and limb and rescued Prosek's wife.

So again, critical thinking skills:
If all Magic users are evil, then Cyber-Knights are evil.
Yet the Cyber-Knights are heroes who fight evil, therefor they must be good.
The Cyber-Knights fight evil magic users and are pretty honest about magic not being evil.

They are the critical thinking section that the CS isn't following.

They have tons of evidence of "non-evil" Magic users. Yet they still insist that magic is an ultimately corrupting force.

The fact is, in North America, the CS is the most powerful force. They have 9,000,000 soldiers in Heroes of Humanity. Nine. Million. The demons have like 200,000 the CS outnumbered them literally 45:1

There comes a point when you get so big that you are no longer "protecting" yourself. The CS has to see that. You build up troops like that, even the "only" 5,000,000 then you are an aggressor. Your PRESENCE ALONE is aggressive at that point. Realistically Lazlo, Tolkeen, the FoM, and every group that isn't the CS should see the CS, right now, as a legitimate threat that is actively threatening them. Why? Because you don't need numbers like that to protect yourself.

So... Let me give you a "what if" scenario.

If a human kingdom got a hold of something from a rift. Something that turns the tide. Something that the CS can't defeat. Something that would only be effective if used before the CS' numerical advantage could be utilized. Say, an SDF-1 or a set of Macross Cannons. Something that can fire from miles away and destroys everything in a 4 mile wide path.

This Human Kingdom says, "The CS has 5,000,000+ troops. That is not a defense force. That is an invasion force. They will invade and conquer anyone who refuses to bow to them and join them."

They then fire a shot. Obliterate Lonestar. Wipe it off the map. Then send a communication to the CS 3 minutes later:
"You have 1 minute to surrender or we destroy another of your cities."

The CS doesn't surrender... Boom... Another CS city down. 3 minutes later another communication:
"You have 1 minute to surrender or we destroy Chi-Town."

No reply. Boom. Chi-Town is obliterated, again, another communication is sent:
"You have 1 minute to surrender or we destroy another CS city."

And they keep going until the CS is a smoking ruin.

Would you say that the human kingdom is evil?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Number one Pepsi:

The daemonix weren't imprisoned because they were so bad. Re-read your SoT books. The daemonix were imprisoned because they were so weak and pathetic that the other demons did it simply because they could do it. This is the second time I have seen you insinuate that the Daemonix were some kind of mega criminal of Hell that was so evil they had to be locked up. The books clearly state that they were the weakest of the weak and were so much fail that they were imprisoned. Part of this was because they couldn't use magic. So the Daemonix were actually an oppressed sentient minority.

No. I said that they were in demon prison and were broken out. They 'are' sub demons. (Same as brodkil and Gargoyles, which it should be noted are badass enough to have the NGR under seige for decades), yes they are magically difficent, and kept under the thumb of true demons, but you should reread your SoT books. SoT2, Page 88, under "The problem with Daemonix" Where it goes on at length, in pionting out how.. bad.. they are. They pick fights with other demons, sub demons, etc, they're so vile that even armies of Evil can't stand them. Their inculsion has caused most of the Psistalkers on tolkeen's side to up and quit. When you're so vile that other demons think you're so vile you have to be locked up. That's pretty bad. And those are the ones that tolkeen broke free and more over, empowered to make them stronger.

You also skipped the part where the CS, again, forgets that the Cyber-Knights, known heroes, also use TW items frequently. Using magic is actually part of their bag. These were the same people who risked life and limb and rescued Prosek's wife.

Some do. Some don't.

So again, critical thinking skills:
If all Magic users are evil, then Cyber-Knights are evil.
Yet the Cyber-Knights are heroes who fight evil, therefor they must be good.
The Cyber-Knights fight evil magic users and are pretty honest about magic not being evil.

They are the critical thinking section that the CS isn't following.

Because you're making presumptive leaps.

Some Ck's use magic. Not all. they are, by and large psionic. Of which so is 25% of the CS population and their "secret weapon" against the supernatura/demons/devils.

Only some CK's use magic, not all. There fore not all are evil, therefore not all CK's are evil. and on down the line...

They have tons of evidence of "non-evil" Magic users. Yet they still insist that magic is an ultimately corrupting force.

No. That's not 'proof of non evil magic users" Those are Magic users that just haven't YET shown SIGNS of corruption. (In their eyes) Sort of like....... I don't know.. having HIV but being healthy. The person is already sick. They just haven't succumbed to the disease yet. They may not show symptoms for years but it's already started. It's 'there'. That's how the CS see the corruption from Magic.

The fact is, in North America, the CS is the most powerful force. They have 9,000,000 soldiers in Heroes of Humanity. Nine. Million.

I know. I've been the one pointing that out.

The demons have like 200,000 the CS outnumbered them literally 45:1

I've not done a count on the demons on earth during the Minion war. I'm not sayng your wrong. ( I really haven't counted at all) Could you point me to the page where you found the numbers? I'd like to double check for my own usage.

I will say that demons, by and large being supernatural are more than a 1 for 1 basis. You may need 10 or more troops per demon to take them down( maybe more if theyr'e simple infantry, less if they're juicers/borg, etc). And while you're doing that, you still need to be powerful enough to protect yourself from all the OTHER things trying to take out the CS.

There comes a point when you get so big that you are no longer "protecting" yourself. The CS has to see that. You build up troops like that, even the "only" 5,000,000 then you are an aggressor. Your PRESENCE ALONE is aggressive at that point. Realistically Lazlo, Tolkeen, the FoM, and every group that isn't the CS should see the CS, right now, as a legitimate threat that is actively threatening them. Why? Because you don't need numbers like that to protect yourself.

lol You do on rifts earth. You're not wrong, they all should see the CS as a threat. But all of them together couldn't take down the CS.
But tha'ts not the point. Again you're forgetting your setting. The CS is in NA. the Xits are in NA. The Xits have billions of mega damage troops, most of which can fly. And have TK MD rifles. They have no fear, and don't feel pain (I don't think... could be wrong on the pain thing, but they're bugs) They could swarm at any minute and come down and attack the CS. Sure we have information on how they "Typically" act, but as the SoT itself have shown us, they don't always act in typical fashion. They're still learning about the Xits, and they're a huge huge threat. Not just to the CS but to the planet.

Down south there's armies of millions of vampires. Which many of the CS weapons are utterly useless. A naked vampire could cavort infront of a standard CS patrol taking laser fire till the CS ran out of eclips. They're still a threat too. Sooner or later someone's going to go "You know this running water thing isn't really that big a deal. We'll just blow up the canyon to the north. andstop the river for a few nights and move millions of vampires north into NA." Or a dozen other ways the vamps COULD come north should they wish.

Then to the east there's millions and millions of supernatural and alien monsters on Atlantis, that see humans as chattle or food, even iof the CS some how killed all the troops on atlantis, the Sploog has literal planets of troops on standby. Billions more.. The CS has literal BILLIONS of threating MDC aliens out there that would see them dead.

That's all before you touch the minion war.

yes 9,000,000 is an ungodly number of troops. But it's not like the CS doesn't have an ungodly number of enemies.

So... Let me give you a "what if" scenario.

If a human kingdom got a hold of something from a rift. Something that turns the tide. Something that the CS can't defeat. Something that would only be effective if used before the CS' numerical advantage could be utilized. Say, an SDF-1 or a set of Macross Cannons. Something that can fire from miles away and destroys everything in a 4 mile wide path.

This Human Kingdom says, "The CS has 5,000,000+ troops. That is not a defense force. That is an invasion force. They will invade and conquer anyone who refuses to bow to them and join them."

They then fire a shot. Obliterate Lonestar. Wipe it off the map. Then send a communication to the CS 3 minutes later:
"You have 1 minute to surrender or we destroy another of your cities."

The CS doesn't surrender... Boom... Another CS city down. 3 minutes later another communication:
"You have 1 minute to surrender or we destroy Chi-Town."

No reply. Boom. Chi-Town is obliterated, again, another communication is sent:
"You have 1 minute to surrender or we destroy another CS city."

And they keep going until the CS is a smoking ruin.

Would you say that the human kingdom is evil?

You're basing the entire hypothetical about the CS having too many troops. As indicated above the CS has literal billions of MD enmies out there willing to kill them. Thus 9.000,000 troops while a huge huge huge number, is still piddly compaired to what the CS faces.

Thus your hypothetical is incorrect. In your hypothetical your guys with the cannon, would be equated to how YOU see the CS. Overreacting to threats that aren't actually there.

[Blue_Lion]

I think what they are referring to is the ratio of troops to the population size, not to the number of enemies they have.
The ratio is not that of a defensive force but one that has the man power to invade and defend and quite simply should be beyond there ability to sustain giving there size.

And any one born in a place is a native of the place even if that is not where the ancestors came from.

And no property is not only gained by force and property laws are not only enforceable by military force. Countries have gained property through negations. Now most property is gained by people through purchase not force. The argument of property laws only being enforced by force can be said to be the same for any law. Property laws can be enforced by law enforcement without the use of force, with most people it is only those that use force to break the law that get force used against them.

[Pepsi Jedi]

that's not what they're referencing at all.

And if you're beset by literal billions of bad guys, you could force every member of your species into the armed forces in some capacity and be 'justified' and 'defending yourself'.

The CS is beset on three of four sides, but Billions to the north, billions to the east, and Millions to the South, of deadly MD creatures with variety of MD ways to kill them.

Millions of troops against billions all around, is an underdog and not actually up to the task.

The CS isn't 'overreacting to their situation' in any sort of dramatic way. If anything it's a hail mary ploy, that if any of those 3 forces pressed the matter.. is pretty doomed to fail and the CS be destroyed. Yes their army expands their borders, but they are there to defend humanity from far far worse and FARRRRRRRRRR SUPERIOR numbers of foes.

[Blue_Lion]

I call BS there are not billions sitting on any CS boarder.

The problem is a supply issue and economic issue it is not possible for so few to people to sustain a modern army of that size. A nation that has to much of its national resources tied up in military goes broke.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Does anybody know the age group breakdown for CS soldiers

[Pepsi Jedi]

I call BS there are not billions sitting on any CS boarder.

The problem is a supply issue and economic issue it is not possible for so few to people to sustain a modern army of that size. A nation that has to much of its national resources tied up in military goes broke.

There's not billions of Xiticiks' to the north?

Atlantis doesn't have millions if not billions on the island with ENTIRE PLANETS Of backup at short notice?

There's not millions of vampires to the south?

You may want to re-read the setting information Lion. You're whoafully ignorant of just a FEW of the threats that surround the CS.

Edit:As for the supply and economic issue, if you mean the CS... welcome to the conversation. That one's been going on for about two decades real time. It's actually addressed in the new book. (Finally)

If you mean the Xits, and atlantis... *Shrugs*They are what they are. The bugs are a hive (Well hives plural). They deforrest and kill the landscape around their hives as they grow ever larger breeding more bugs. if you mean Atlantis. They're interdimensional traders with entire planets economies at their command.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Does anybody know the age group breakdown for CS soldiers

I've not seen such, but the new book talks about the CS Reserves having some older and or retired troops in them I think.

[Blue_Lion]

I call BS there are not billions sitting on any CS boarder.

The problem is a supply issue and economic issue it is not possible for so few to people to sustain a modern army of that size. A nation that has to much of its national resources tied up in military goes broke.

There's not billions of Xiticiks' to the north?

Atlantis doesn't have millions if not billions on the island with ENTIRE PLANETS Of backup at short notice?

There's not millions of vampires to the south?

You may want to re-read the setting information Lion. You're whoafully ignorant of just a FEW of the threats that surround the CS.

Edit:As for the supply and economic issue, if you mean the CS... welcome to the conversation. That one's been going on for about two decades real time. It's actually addressed in the new book. (Finally)

If you mean the Xits, and atlantis... *Shrugs*They are what they are. The bugs are a hive (Well hives plural). They deforrest and kill the landscape around their hives as they grow ever larger breeding more bugs. if you mean Atlantis. They're interdimensional traders with entire planets economies at their command.

Atlantis is not on any CS boarder.
I did forget that the new northern boarder now touches a hive.

I doubt there is millions of vampires on there southern boarder. That would take tens of millions of people per million vampires to sustain. Do you have a source with the number of vampires. (most are not any where near any CS boarder.)

You might to learn what a boarder is if you think Atlantis is on a boarder with the CS.

(Not sure but I seam to recall the population of the CS was around 10 million. Even if they are not pulling from internal population 9 million soldiers is quite high.)
I was aware of it for decades, so not new just saying what the reason they are saying the number of troops are to high.

[eliakon]

The problem with trying to justify the CS by pointing to these numbers is that its a con.
The Bugs? To bad that no one knows just how bad the threat IS. Its a joke to try and use a threat THAT THE CS DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT as one of their justifications. Let alone the idiotcy of an argument that if you have billions of foes... you should go looking to make MORE enemies by waging a war of genocide against every non-human, mage, and what not out there.

Atlantis? To bad that its not a threat to the CS, unless the CS makes it one. Seriously. Again, there is the tiny problem that
1) the CS doesn't know the scope and scale of the Splugorth empire, we do but the CS cant use our meta-game information
2) the Splugorth aren't interested in conquest.

Then we have the grossly inflated numbers of vampires...

This sounds less like a logical argument and more like a statement from Joseph Proseks propaganda department "There are billions, yes BILLIONS of enemies out there. You must join us in defending mankind."
Hmmm, it would also fit perfectly in WH40K where the Imperium warns that the Witch, the Xeno, and the Heretic are the danger.

[flatline]

Hmmm, it would also fit perfectly in WH40K where the Imperium warns that the Witch, the Xeno, and the Heretic are the danger.

I need to pick up WH40k. It sounds like fascinating reading material.

--flatline

[guardiandashi]

Hmmm, it would also fit perfectly in WH40K where the Imperium warns that the Witch, the Xeno, and the Heretic are the danger.

I need to pick up WH40k. It sounds like fascinating reading material.

--flatline

If you like grimdark then it works but if you aren't a huge fan of that then its somewhere between ok and sucks.

there are a lot of things that I find hideously, and in a lot of cases stupidly or humorously bad.

[Shark_Force]

honestly, in 40k the witch pretty much is a legitimate danger. even well-trained psykers can sometimes cause problems, without training there's a fairly significant chance any given "witch" you encounter will summon a demon, or get possessed by one and go on a killing spree, or just accidentally kill people nearby, etc.

and if you read "heretic" as "chaos", then yeah, that's pretty legitimate too. chaos in 40k really does spread.

the xeno isn't inherently a threat, but last i checked, most of the other factions in the setting, well, they may or may not hate humans, but they typically don't have the best interests of humans in mind.

in contrast, rifts has spellcasters and psychics that can use their abilities with no meaningful drawbacks whatsoever, there isn't any force of chaos that actively attempts to spread corruption into the minds of innocents, and a significant number of d-bees are more than happy to be friends with humans (or anyone, really).

basically, if there is something the coalition claims as a reason to fear <thing> in rifts, the WH40k setting gives you very clear reasons why you should fear <thing> in that setting.

[Axelmania]

The CS doesn't know the exact number of Xiticix Warriorss or Kydian Overlords, but they know enough about their strength (either could whip a grunt) and numbers (many eaten or enslaved) to justify that growth. Either directly through measuring encounters and logistic or indirectly by noticing they still don't let up and runnscared after a recent recruiting drive. The CS didn't boost to this overnight they gradually climbed there as then need became apparent.

[Alrik Vas]

Lolololololol

Ok. I feel better.

You guys are killing me.

We all know the CS is evil. Half the time Pepsi is saying so himself.

This is what this conversation sounds like to me:

ProCS: "Well, yeah...They're evil. But I totally understand why they act the way they do. Real life humans would probably be worse."

AntiCS: "just admit they're evil, because look at all the bad stuff. Stop saying they're good, evil is real and they're it!"

PCS: "I didn't say they weren't evil."

ACS: "why won't you say they're evil?!"

P: "but I did...I'm also saying I get why, though."

A: "they're evil even if you won't admit it!"

/stagger

[flatline]

So when do we get to argue that evil is subjective?

For instance, my magic user perceives the CS as evil because of how the CS treats magic users.
My dog boy, on the other hand, doesn't see the CS as evil at all.

And they're both right from their perspectives.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

Lolololololol

Ok. I feel better.

You guys are killing me.

We all know the CS is evil. Half the time Pepsi is saying so himself.

This is what this conversation sounds like to me:

ProCS: "Well, yeah...They're evil. But I totally understand why they act the way they do. Real life humans would probably be worse."

AntiCS: "just admit they're evil, because look at all the bad stuff. Stop saying they're good, evil is real and they're it!"

PCS: "I didn't say they weren't evil."

ACS: "why won't you say they're evil?!"

P: "but I did...I'm also saying I get why, though."

A: "they're evil even if you won't admit it!"

/stagger

[Axelmania]

The alignment system isn't subjective but for it to make sense with what NPCs do it has to be more about how they think of their actions and not impartial assessment of their actions.

Example: no killing innocents means the character can't kill someone they believe must be innocent. They also establish what traits define innocent.

Actual/potential innocents are free game.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

So when do we get to argue that evil is subjective?

For instance, my magic user perceives the CS as evil because of how the CS treats magic users.
My dog boy, on the other hand, doesn't see the CS as evil at all.

And they're both right from their perspectives.

--flatline

Yeah muddy the waters , that should confuse the anti-CS folks

[J_cobbers]

If you're a 90lbs weakling, and you get a phone call that THOR is going to come and destroy your house and kill you in 5 years. Everyone you know, friends and foes alike say "Dude, THOR is coming to destroy your house and kill you. You've got NO CHANCE. None. What so ever. You can move to a different city, or hide, but fighting thor will just get you killed"

if you choose to stay there, and fight him. Then your'e an idiot. Thor comes, and destroys your house and kills you. (Just like everyone told you he would)

If the person is too stupid to move, it's on them. Now THor is clearly not being a cool dude in this situation, but you were told, repeatedly what would happen, and it did.

So the SILLY aspect would be standing there and getting killed for nothing, when you COULD have moved or hidden.

Should you HAVE to move? No. Thor shouldn't be such a jerkwad, but if he's coming, jerkwad or not, and you stand there and get smooshed by his hammer. Then you're the silly one.

Unless you are Steve Rogers, get your super soldier serum and vibranium shield and Army training the 5 years before he shows up. That would be the one 90lb weakling that could reasonably stand up to Thor. Course he wouldn't be a 90 lb weakling anymore. Just saying.

[Nightmask]

If you're a 90lbs weakling, and you get a phone call that THOR is going to come and destroy your house and kill you in 5 years. Everyone you know, friends and foes alike say "Dude, THOR is coming to destroy your house and kill you. You've got NO CHANCE. None. What so ever. You can move to a different city, or hide, but fighting thor will just get you killed"

if you choose to stay there, and fight him. Then your'e an idiot. Thor comes, and destroys your house and kills you. (Just like everyone told you he would)

If the person is too stupid to move, it's on them. Now THor is clearly not being a cool dude in this situation, but you were told, repeatedly what would happen, and it did.

So the SILLY aspect would be standing there and getting killed for nothing, when you COULD have moved or hidden.

Should you HAVE to move? No. Thor shouldn't be such a jerkwad, but if he's coming, jerkwad or not, and you stand there and get smooshed by his hammer. Then you're the silly one.

Unless you are Steve Rogers, get your super soldier serum and vibranium shield and Army training the 5 years before he shows up. That would be the one 90lb weakling that could reasonably stand up to Thor. Course he wouldn't be a 90 lb weakling anymore. Just saying.

Don't you just hate when someone argues that it's totally acceptable for someone to rob or kill you and if you fight back and try to keep what belongs to you that YOU'RE the one in the wrong and that because you refused to be robbed it's all on you and not the guy/group that's robbing and killing you? But turn things around and they'd totally argue you were still in the wrong because 'well you're taking stuff that doesn't belong to you and killing people you shouldn't be'? Imagine trying that argument in say Texas.

[Axelmania]

Tolkeen can't be robbed of land that they robbed to begin with. Freehold for example, is dragons monopolizing human land.

In the case of the above example, Steve Rogers was squatting in Asgard. HH.

[Nightmask]

Tolkeen can't be robbed of land that they robbed to begin with. Freehold for example, is dragons monopolizing human land.

In the case of the above example, Steve Rogers was squatting in Asgard. HH.

Tolkeen didn't rob any land and certainly the CS can't claim the land as theirs just as they can't claim the planet as theirs. Heck if anyone has any right to it it's either Triax and the NGR which has managed to be a government for far longer and cover far more land or the Tech city of Japan since it's people are literally from before the Cataclysm so could argue that 'well we had that claim and still hold it today'.

[Killer Cyborg]

Tolkeen can't be robbed of land that they robbed to begin with. Freehold for example, is dragons monopolizing human land.

In the case of the above example, Steve Rogers was squatting in Asgard. HH.

Tolkeen didn't rob any land and certainly the CS can't claim the land as theirs just as they can't claim the planet as theirs.

Historically, they most certainly can.
In case you've missed it, nations have been doing that sort of thing throughout all of history.
Heck, look at the Middle East.

You can disagree with their claim, but land ownership is an intangible concept that has no inherent value beyond the ability to defend one's territory, and/or to acquire more territory.