Coalition States - Good, Bad, or In-Between?

[HWalsh]

People forget that the reason Tolkeen held out as long as it did was because they had a MASSIVE information advantage over the CS.

They knew when the CS would attack. They knew HOW the CS would attack. They had plenty of time to develop countermeasures. The CS had no idea and suddenly their entire battle plan was shot to heck.

[Shark_Force]

Once you get to the point of knowing your enemy has entire 'planets worth' of back up, do you need to actually count each one? Or can it be then assumed that dude'd got a crap ton of troops and likely more than your nation which, while a large one on rifts earth, still has less population than present day California?

how do they know the splugorth have entire planets worth? are people randomly walking around stating out loud for everyone to hear "just a reminder, splynncryth has literal planets full of soldiers in reserve" or something?

you could very well overhear a couple of kydians talking about going to or coming from <some place>. you may even know that <some place> requires some form of teleportation.

but the odds of <some place> being clearly defined as a planet, with the further statement that the planet is full of soldiers (rather than just being a small base somewhere, or a planet with an outpost on it, etc) in casual conversation are ridiculously low.

the CS almost definitely knows that atlantis exists (someone's probably bought slaves, brought them to north america, and had those slaves escape in the many years the splugorth have been operating on rifts earth). they almost certainly know that not all of the splugorth are *in* atlantis (if nothing else, they should have an idea that the splugorth have some outposts in north america, which they do... and they probably have as a bare minimum some vague indications that the splugorth operate in europe and africa, which would likely imply outposts of some kind there as well). they probably don't know how many total splugorth minions of the various types are in atlantis. they quite probably expect that the splugorth have some sort of off-world outposts or bases (just because they want to kill d-bees and such doesn't mean they won't torture them or interrogate them first, and tons of people across the megaverse know at least something about the splugorth). but they probably don't have the slightest clue that splynncryth in particular has literal planets full of troops.

(incidentally, splynncryth probably has much larger numbers of troops in general because as i recall he is the canon personal saviour of both the kydians and kittani, so we can reasonably expect that there are more of them serving him than any other splugorth).

[Killer Cyborg]

And that is just INITAL bombardment.

No. That is the CS pulverizing the above-ground structures, with no mention of how long that would take, nor of what exactly would be involved.

First strike wave IS initial bombardment.
Unless we are assuming that for some reason it will take dozens and dozens of nuclear weapons to destroy a single hive which seems...off. I mean if MD Buildings are that resilient why bother nuking Tolkeen?

a) We don't know the damage of the biggest CS nukes, but we do know that a single Xiticix tower has 5,100-13,200 MDC.
b) Good point about the attack on Tolkeen: How'd THAT nuking work out for the CS?
Nothing is a sure thing.

Follow up strikes with things like persistent chemical agents (like say VX) to poison bugs as they leave the hives.

Not familiar with VX. Is it a mega-damage poison?

Its a real world nerve agent. But since Nerve agents in the game don't do 'damage' directly MD/SD is not as big a distinction. Its also kind of hard to tell if it would be MD or not since...well MD doesn't exist in the real world. For all of that though the point of VX is that dusting the poison leaves a residue that is deadly for days afterwards...

In-game, there is a distinction between MD toxins/chemicals and SDC toxins/chemicals.
I don't know of any books that mentions any MD chemical weapons program for the CS.

That totally leaves out the use of biological weapons tailored to the Xixtic biology (which have the wonderful advantage of being really hard to species jump) Which can be used to infect and weaken/kill entire hives.

Sure. Or not.
Science doesn't always give us what we want.

And your point is?

That you personally dreaming up ideas doesn't make them viable options.

And then there is the NGR system of micro-bot assassins

Is there?

EIR-60 golf ball sized kill bots
Page 129 Triax 2

Don't have the book, so I can't comment on them without a lot more information.

Or the idea of sappers carrying Nuclear weapons INSIDE hives (after you have vaporized the outside, and killed of the majority of the defenders)

Possibly.
Or (again) possibly not.

How would it not work?

You want to give a detailed plan, I can give a detailed response.
You want to toss out vague ideas, I can toss out vague rebuttals.
The simplest way to failure is "the sappers get killed by the bugs."

I mean seriously how are you going to PREVENT a skelebot from walking into a hive under a cover of a cloud of nerve gas?

a) the nerve gas doesn't do anything, because it's an SDC weapon against MDC foes. The Bugs shoot the skelebot.
b) The CS has a heretofore unmentioned MD nerve gas. Bugs die in the process of killing the bot.
c) The bugs have a heretofore unmentioned ace up their sleeve.
d) The nuke doesn't inflict enough MD.

Again, it took the CS far, far, far longer than it should have to even take out a speedbump like Tolkeen.

A foe that had the ability to react, the ability to use magic to defend them selves, a foe that had environmental armor to prevent environmental attacks, a foe that was able to nullify the use of strategic weapons...
The Xitic are not in the same league as Tolkeen by a long shot. They have literally only brute force and numbers going for them...
and in this kind of fight the first is of no value and the second just makes them bigger targets.

Elder Queens have an IQ of 20+1d6.
The bugs have psionics, and the ability to make TW equivalent items.
That's a lot more than brute strength.

I kind of assume that both sides will use tactics. For example, the bugs won't necessarily just sit in their bombed-out hives waiting to die.
Massive bombing of the bugs will cause them to go after the CS, which is one reason why the CS wants to avoid that option.

Killing 50% of 1.2 billion bugs still leaves a hell of a lot of angry bugs.

That is a win for the CS.
I mean seriously, bugs leaving their hives to "go after the CS' just means that they can be killed in job lots faster and easier.
Like I said, bugs have no way to defend against stuff like this, and it would take them DAYS to fly from the Hivelands theater to someplace where they could DO anything. If they live that long its because the CS lets them.
The bugs move in swarms after all, and with a nice NBC opening the bugs outside the hives will be dead. Leave a hive = DOA if you simply put forces around the hives.
If they dig a tunnel and let a swarm out? Nuke it, or gas it, or use an FAE, or what ever else tickles your fancy.

You do know that missiles can be shot down?
And that they can tunnel?
And that the CS doesn't have a magic crystal ball that lets them know everything that the bugs are doing?
And that the bugs have more warriors--even after being bombed/nuked--than the CS likely has entire population...?

Its not like the Bugs have a dispersed command center, forward deployed troops, ready reserves, or the ability to teleport. Heck most of them can't even effectively hide...

Each hive has 12 million Hunters.
Hunters can hide.
You should probably read up on the bugs that you're talking about.

[Killer Cyborg]

First off question for Pepsi Jedi, totally off topic. Wouldn't the opposite of your user name be Coca-Cola Sith? Kind of makes sense in that Coke is red colored where pepsi has that yin yang red and blue balance the force thing going on. Btw I like Coke more, not that matters at all.

Ok more on topic:

I like the smuggle a nuke into the hive option. As we know (on a meta level, not common knowledge in game) there's the old, use the scent gland trick to get past the guards and into the deeper levels XI pg 11. If the CS command or scientist ever got this info they could put together a well made delivery system (perhaps a robot or cyborg disguised as a Xit much like the NGR uses against the Gargoyle Empire) covered in Xiticix scent that could walk non threateningly deep into a hive and deliver a full yield nuke and likely take out the Queens and most of the rest of the hive city.

That would really be the best way to handle it: sneak in a lot of nukes.

On the point of good or bad or in between, it's all a matter of perspective, which I think is why they are written the way that they are, so that players and GMs have to wrestle with the moral conundrum of man kind's survival in a very hostile world, but at the price of genocide, racism and inculcated cultural ignorance. With regard to how the CS leadership deals with other powers in the Americas, they tend to be bullies rather than diplomats, who trust what they can control (technology) rather than what they can not (magic and an educated populace). But they also deal with other supernatural threats of beings of true unadulterated evil (demons and such) as well as dangerous wild MDC animals that can kill an unarmored human with one hit (like Rhino Buffalo or any other random monster). In that regard they are protectors. It is definitely a blurred line. The average CS grunt is trying to save the world from their perspective, no matter that not everything or everyone they are trying to save it from is any better worse than the average human. It's a matter of subjective good and evil vs objective good and evil.

Yes.

There is also the old adages of 1) Picking the lessor of 2 evils. And if you are an average human, there are and have been more sinister evils (or threats) out there than the leadership of the CS (splugorth, vamps, xiticix, Mechanoids, Federation of Magic, harvester of souls, minion war etc).
and 2) Better to trust the devil you know. The CS are a largely known element, you know what the believe and stand for and can work around it, most of the others not so much. Yes they are sci-fi nazi's, but at least you know what they want and how they go about getting it done. The other big bads out there are either sneaky and interested in dominating / enslaving people (vamps, splugies, FoM, deevils and demons), or exceptionably hostile/genocidal to nonconforming life forms (Xits, harvester of souls, and the Mechs). Tell me which one you as a normal human want to work with day to day if you have to?

Right.
One of the appeals of Rifts as a setting has, for me, always been that you basically have Nazis on one side, and Demons on the other, and most PCs are caught somewhere in-between.

[Killer Cyborg]

(Oh, and according to p. 82 of Xiticix Invasion, defenders are -6 to dodge TK rifles. I don't know if I ever noticed that before.)

How does the dodge mechanic work when the shooter is thousands of feet away? How can you tell that a particular bug is about to fire?

--flatline

My guess is it's an abstraction. They aren't saying its harder to dodge, they're saying on target ranged attacks miss less. All firearms have dodge penalties associated with them. The bug tk gun has a different listing...for...reasons...

So if I'm a CS grunt with 6 attacks and there are 100 bugs shooting at me, I get to dodge the first 6, but not the remaining 94. If dodging were an abstraction for "zig-zagging" or otherwise moving evasively, it would apply a penalty for all the bugs, not just the first 6. That's where the abstraction becomes stretched.

--flatline

Back in N&S, that's how dodging worked, IIRC.

[Killer Cyborg]

RGMG 12
106 PA (2392 AD): The Coalition States declares war on the kingdom of Tolkeen and Free Quebec.

Then which is correct. The RGMG or the SoT book where it actually happened?

SoT:1 Pg. 105 specifically lists the date of Chalk's Folly (the missile attack on Tolkeen that started the war) as 104 PA.

The RGMG.
CWC is set in 105 PA.

"Easy" versus human lives [is] relative.

Not really. If that were the case they'd use Dogboys and/or Psi-Stalkers.

Not sure what you're trying to say there.
My point was that they can crank out skelebots faster than creating humans, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily a piece of cake.

Speaking of which, here's some research I did a while back regarding skelebot production:
viewtopic.php?p=2481988#p2481988

Meanwhile, I did happen to find some solid numbers regarding the Coalition's robot production, though they are rather meaningless overall, because of the lack of other information.

SB1, 33
Three Battalions [of skelebots] (864) are currently in production at Lone Star's superior manufacturing facilities. In fact, an entire factory is now devoted to the construction of the skelebots and two other factories are being converted for mass production; should be in full operation within six months. Current level of manufacturing is approximately three battalions (864 bots) per month. the two additional factories will increase production to about 2592 skelebots per month. Chi-Town's limited facilities are limited to the production of 288 skelebots a month.

All this tells us is (as of 102 PA):
-That the Lone Star facilities are superior (in some fashion) to other CS manufacturing facilities, and that the a single CS factory in Lone Star dedicated to the production of skelebots can produce 864 bots per month.
-It takes the CS factories about 6 months to retool to produce skelebots instead of producing its previous product.

It does not tell us how many factories the CS has overall.
It does not tell us why the Chi-Town facilities are only capable of producing 288 skelebots per month (though presumably it is because most of their manufacturing capabilities are otherwise tied up).
It does not tell us if maximum production efficiency has been achieved.
It does not tell us how many hours of that month the factories are active.

That page also describes the "present number of skelebots in use" as well as those in production.
The numbers total at 1,248.

And by the time of the SoT books they are literally leaving "Skelebot Graveyards" (multiples) with 18,000+ Skelebots.[/quote]

Right.
By 105 PA, they have close to 100k skelebots.
You can leave up to 5 skelebot graveyards with those kinds of numbers.

Other information:
CWC,35
The Chi-Town military employs over 1.2 million citizens in their factories and facilities alone. This includes everything from the production of military uniforms, medals, munitions, weapons, armor, robots, and armored vehicles to microchips, parts and widgets for just about everything.

CWC, 122
Since their introduction into military service approximately seven years ago....
(establishes timeline)

But this timeline clashes with the timeline presented in the SoT line.

SoT is wrong.
Or possibly you're wrong about it, I suppose.
The RGMG and CWC have a pretty clear timeline.

[quote[

Six skelebot divisions (34,560 troops) are on their way to Quebec, while eight divisions (46,080) are already in place for the siege on Tolkeen. Another two divisions (11,520) patrol the borders of the Coalition States or are on limited missions in hostile territories.
The context there is showing that skelebots are now being used as frontline combat troops, so these seem to be simply the number of bots used offensively and/or in major numbers in hot zones.
The total there is 92,160.

Again, SoT indicates that they have far greater than that number.[/quote]

Quote some supporting passages. Cite the book and page number.
It's how we do things when we want to make a solid argument.

IIRC, the CWC book takes place around 105 PA, only three years after the previous information on production.
Which indicates that the Coalition has dedicated a LOT more factories to the task of creating skelebots.

CWC has to be incorrect. It directly contradicts SoT. SoT came later, does this not mean SoT takes precedence?

Nope.

[HWalsh]

Okay CK:

Timeline of events:
Chalk's Folly - The opening Salvo at Tolkeen happens on Page 105 in SoT Book 1.

This book has a VERY clear timeline covering from year 12 PA to year 106 PA. This is covered from pages 96 to 109.
Clearly this shows NUMEROUS TIMES that the SoT starts in 104 PA.

Officially the CS doesn't declare war until 105 PA.

Actually, if you read it, the CS has surrounded Tolkeen in 103 PA, then "after nearly a year" there General Chalk Launched a nuclear attack on it in 104 PA.
----

Specifically on page 105 it also covers the events of 103 PA which details EXACTLY when Prosek decided to increase the military equipment as detailed in CWC.

These new weapons were not ready for testing until 103 PA. Specifically stated on pg 105 -
"For years, new weapon and armor designs were in the works, and now they were finally ready for testing."

So the Coalition couldn't have begun mass production of the new Armor or Weapons prior to 103 PA as they were not tested until 103 PA.

Game. Set. Match.

"The tests went off well enough to merit full-scale production of the new equipment, and Emperor Prosek's new army was finally on the way."

So all of those new SAMAS? All of that new Deadboy armor? All of it? Happened after that. After 103 PA. So, if they have those SAMAS claimed in CWC to be ready... Which I believe the stated number is 2.2 million? They had LESS THAN 2 FULL YEARS to do it.

So they produced 2.2 Million new style SAMAS (as well as everything else) in less than 24 months. That equals roughly 91,666 per month while at the same time making all of the new Deadboy Armors and weapons.

It isn't fair for you to say, "CWC has a pretty clear timeline." When SOT 1 has a VERY detailed and VERY clear timeline.

CWC Came out in 1996
SoT 1 came out in 2000

If there is any conflict between CWC it is superseded by the later printing in SoT 1 which came out four years later.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's such a bummer... I mean the rest will have to fly up at speed 90 and rip people apart as that 200,000,000 sit back and pepper the troops with long range MD fire.

Pretty much.

Here's a more specific breakdown of the kind of numbers we're looking at with the bugs:

XI 45
Breakdown of a Typical Xiticix Colony's Population
1 Elder Queen
2-100 Young Queens
4% Leapers
5% Super Warriors
6% Hunters
9% Nannies
10% Diggers
30% Workers
36% Warriors

With 200 million bugs (minimum) in a hive, that turns into a fighting force that looks like this:

8,000,000 Leapers
10,000,000 Super Warriors (around 2,500,000 will have TK rifles, and 500,000 will have a resin rifle or a TK pistol)
12,000,000 Hunters
72,000,000 Warriors (23,760,000 of which will have TK Rifles, 14,400,000 of which will have spike guns (400' range), 3,600,000 of which will have Resin Rifles (240' range), and the rest will have only melee weapons. Although keep in mind that they can throw their spears 300'.).

Per Hive.


(Oh, and according to p. 82 of Xiticix Invasion, defenders are -6 to dodge TK rifles. I don't know if I ever noticed that before.)

Yeah I just lumped all the combatants into one chunk for ease of discussion. I found those numbers too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

First off question for Pepsi Jedi, totally off topic. Wouldn't the opposite of your user name be Coca-Cola Sith? Kind of makes sense in that Coke is red colored where pepsi has that yin yang red and blue balance the force thing going on. Btw I like Coke more, not that matters at all..

I have a friend that self identifies as sith. he likes Coke better too. He's also Canadian.

For the record. My light saber is green.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I like the smuggle a nuke into the hive option. As we know (on a meta level, not common knowledge in game) there's the old, use the scent gland trick to get past the guards and into the deeper levels XI pg 11. If the CS command or scientist ever got this info they could put together a well made delivery system (perhaps a robot or cyborg disguised as a Xit much like the NGR uses against the Gargoyle Empire) covered in Xiticix scent that could walk non threateningly deep into a hive and deliver a full yield nuke and likely take out the Queens and most of the rest of the hive city.

For the record, the CS aren't stupid. They __HAVE__ Developed Skelebots with bombs in them and scent gland immeters. No nukes though. They are detailed in the HoH book.

No nukes though, so there's a reason "In game" why nukes aren't used in this fashion. or.. they would. They do have infiltrator bots with bombs that they try to get close to the queen and blow up. Its hampered by the fact that the queens and higher caste bugs are actually smart. Not like, writting song lyrics smart but have high IQ's even if they're more instinctual. They 'figure out' that buggy looking thing over isn't actually a bug even if it looks and smells like one. (Also detailed in the new book)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Once you get to the point of knowing your enemy has entire 'planets worth' of back up, do you need to actually count each one? Or can it be then assumed that dude'd got a crap ton of troops and likely more than your nation which, while a large one on rifts earth, still has less population than present day California?

how do they know the splugorth have entire planets worth? are people randomly walking around stating out loud for everyone to hear "just a reminder, splynncryth has literal planets full of soldiers in reserve" or something?

1) I'm betting.. yeah.. .You just send some covert ops into Atlantis, and hang out at one of the bars and listen. I'm betting that many beings (Not 'people') sit around chatting about it and it's a pretty common knowledge sort of thing. It's the sort of thing evil creatures would brag about and the sort of thing you'd hear while in the DImensional market "How come such and such demon or supernatural creature doesn't just steal what he wants? he could fight his way out, (Or whatever) "Oh well Splynn has about 4 planets of military back up he can rift in at the drop of a hat should someone get foggy"

2) The CS aren't your nice and cuddly sorts of guys. It's not gone into (much/yet) but they do capture Dbees and stuff and hold some in prison. Not all are shot on sight. When you're gathering intel and you capture enemies.. you ask them questions. While most minions of the sploog are going to tell the CS to frak off, the CS... .aren't cuddly. Most anything can be made to talk if you're patient enough and have the stomach for it. It's not nice to think about but I'm sure more than one minion of the Sploog has met his or her fate at the hand of CS interrigators, often in rooms splattered with body fluids if they wern't talkative before. Heck the new book states CS troops can lose like 60% of their body or something, still be stabalized on the field of battle and brought back to later have the option to be turned into borgs (Or live out their lives as stumps). The CS has genetics high enough to uplift dogs to bipedal sapent beings that can shoot laser rifels. They have bionics and full borg conversion. Their medicacl knowledge while not thought about much is VAST... the entry on the new borgs talks about how many of them have "Died' multiple times and just had their gooshy bits recovered from the metal corpses and put in new metal bodies. High high high level of medical knowledge to MAKE a borg..... now.. apply that knowlege to purposefully causing and prologing pain.. or even if you just go old school with knives, plyers, and a blow torch (Normal or MD) The medical knowledge can keep the target(victim?)Alive as long as needed to get answers.

I'm betting the CS knows that the Sploog has planets of back up. Yeah.

you could very well overhear a couple of kydians talking about going to or coming from <some place>. you may even know that <some place> requires some form of teleportation.

but the odds of <some place> being clearly defined as a planet, with the further statement that the planet is full of soldiers (rather than just being a small base somewhere, or a planet with an outpost on it, etc) in casual conversation are ridiculously low.

Well, not putting too fine a point on it, but that's why you train intelligence gathering operatives/troops. There's even a school for it in the CS. We know because it's one of the new AT modules. lol

the CS almost definitely knows that atlantis exists (someone's probably bought slaves, brought them to north america, and had those slaves escape in the many years the splugorth have been operating on rifts earth). they almost certainly know that not all of the splugorth are *in* atlantis (if nothing else, they should have an idea that the splugorth have some outposts in north america, which they do... and they probably have as a bare minimum some vague indications that the splugorth operate in europe and africa, which would likely imply outposts of some kind there as well). they probably don't know how many total splugorth minions of the various types are in atlantis. they quite probably expect that the splugorth have some sort of off-world outposts or bases (just because they want to kill d-bees and such doesn't mean they won't torture them or interrogate them first, and tons of people across the megaverse know at least something about the splugorth). but they probably don't have the slightest clue that splynncryth in particular has literal planets full of troops.

You forget. Even if they don't use torture. (Which I'm betting the CS aren't shy about.) The CS control the money system in North America. The Minions of SPloog arem ostly selfish and evil. One gets caught by the CS. Even if they don't torture him, the thing is going to know it's dead meat, as the CS kill Dbees and magic users.

Instead the CS send in an Intelligence officer. He puts a certified cred-stick on the table that reads $50,000,000. "Yours and a trip out of CS territory, if you but answer a few questions for us."

50,000,000 not enough? how about 500,000,000? No? How about 1,000,000,000? They make the money, they could offer what ever it took (With life as cheep as it is in rifts earth I'm betting it's far less than a million to get someone to talk but that's not the point)

Heck the CS could even keep their word. Actually give the thing the money and let him go. (But.. chaces are he'd be shot in the back of the head as soon as they got all the information they could get out of him, out of him)

You're ALSO forgetting PsiBattalion, with their PRETTY PRETTY CAPES!!

(( I'm Dying to know who's idea that was and who got the rainbow brigade approved... ))

There's mind melters and all other manner of psychics (except I think Mind bleeders. and Psi-warriors (Jedi) )) The CS even has Psi druids on staff.
Psychics that the CS specifically train for intelligence gathering.

Depending on who's captured you might not even have to ask a question.

But if you wantd to be more subtil you use your psychics to infiltrate the dimensional market (I'm betting in MD armor to look like something non human) and use your psionics there.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't remember the page but the "Lets just nuke the bugs" theory is directly counted out in one of the books. Short version "The nukes would get the surface level. Might even glass the area but the vast majority of the bugs would be underground and just fine. They'd use their diggers and warriors and just burrow through the glass and start rebuilding their towers."

That's the in world reason. The Game reason is even more simple. Nukes in palladium are whimps. Again I forget the stats but you can likely find them easily enough. The Nukes DETAILED in the books are just.... whimpy. Not anything to be really frightened of. I mean sure they'd blow me up, but the actual 'damage' they do to the area is paltry.

As for the "have skelebots carry in bombs"

The HoH book ---directly--- addresses it. I.E. the CS does this.. but doesn't use nukes. Just high powered conventional weapons. Even then it's iffy. As KC pointed out the higher castes of the bugs aren't brick stupid. They tend to pick out the imposters.

By and large the CS doesn't actually nuke people any more than the US nukes people. They have nukes (Whimpy ones) but other than the crappy hand of god dodge from tolkeen, there's no tell of the CS actually using their nukes.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay CK:

"KC," actually.

Timeline of events:
Chalk's Folly - The opening Salvo at Tolkeen happens on Page 105 in SoT Book 1.

This book has a VERY clear timeline covering from year 12 PA to year 106 PA. This is covered from pages 96 to 109.

Indeed.
SoT1 breaks it down nicely.

Clearly this shows NUMEROUS TIMES that the SoT starts in 104 PA.

I guess that depends on how you define the "Siege on Tolkeen."

As you say, "Officially the CS doesn't declare war until 105 PA."
Also, SoT1 p. 107, it's in 105 PA that the CS "unveils new war machines."
Meaning that they didn't have the new SAMAS until 105, as CWC indicates.
So both books agree after all.

Specifically on page 105 it also covers the events of 103 PA which details EXACTLY when Prosek decided to increase the military equipment as detailed in CWC.

You mean the part that states "For years, new weapon and armor designs were in the works?"
That's discussing the Skeleton Raiders, the CS Juicers.
They didn't use the new SAMAS, IIRC.

Again,
CWC 89
For approximately the last five years, the Coalition military has been engaged in a secret campaign to refit and improve their forces.

So the Coalition couldn't have begun mass production of the new Armor or Weapons prior to 103 PA as they were not tested until 103 PA.

No. They couldn't have started mass production of the Juicer armor and weapons until then.

Game. Set. Match.

I love it when people try to declare themselves winners in a conversation.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for the Xiticix vs the CS question, remember:

The CS themselves were uncertain whether or not they could win a full-out war against the bugs, even if they started with heavy bombing/nukes.
And at the time of their uncertainty, the CS wrongly estimated the bugs' numbers at 3-4 million.
The bugs' current numbers are 1,196,000,000 higher than the point at which the CS was uncertain of their ability to win a war.

[J_cobbers]

For the record, the CS aren't stupid. They __HAVE__ Developed Skelebots with bombs in them and scent gland immeters. No nukes though. They are detailed in the HoH book.

No nukes though, so there's a reason "In game" why nukes aren't used in this fashion. or.. they would. They do have infiltrator bots with bombs that they try to get close to the queen and blow up. Its hampered by the fact that the queens and higher caste bugs are actually smart. Not like, writting song lyrics smart but have high IQ's even if they're more instinctual. They 'figure out' that buggy looking thing over isn't actually a bug even if it looks and smells like one. (Also detailed in the new book)

I haven't gotten HoH, and probably won't get it for a while, but I look forward to reading it eventually. It is nice to know I am not too far off the mark. So if the CS decides to change the tactics and use the bigger nukes then they've got their delivery system ready to go, and perhaps they'll refine the idea from skelebot to robotic Xiticix.

[Alrik Vas]

As for the Xiticix vs the CS question, remember:

The CS themselves were uncertain whether or not they could win a full-out war against the bugs, even if they started with heavy bombing/nukes.
And at the time of their uncertainty, the CS wrongly estimated the bugs' numbers at 3-4 million.
The bugs' current numbers are 1,196,000,000 higher than the point at which the CS was uncertain of their ability to win a war.

It's my opinion that the CS would be unsure about winning a war vs the x-bugs largely because they would know that they are in dire need of good intel. Once they have more information, figure out what kind of prodding causes the most ouch and are able to get a good idea of hive response and layout, the skullheads will come up with a better strategy than "treat them like they have game stats."

[Pepsi Jedi]

For the record, the CS aren't stupid. They __HAVE__ Developed Skelebots with bombs in them and scent gland immeters. No nukes though. They are detailed in the HoH book.

No nukes though, so there's a reason "In game" why nukes aren't used in this fashion. or.. they would. They do have infiltrator bots with bombs that they try to get close to the queen and blow up. Its hampered by the fact that the queens and higher caste bugs are actually smart. Not like, writting song lyrics smart but have high IQ's even if they're more instinctual. They 'figure out' that buggy looking thing over isn't actually a bug even if it looks and smells like one. (Also detailed in the new book)

I haven't gotten HoH, and probably won't get it for a while, but I look forward to reading it eventually. It is nice to know I am not too far off the mark. So if the CS decides to change the tactics and use the bigger nukes then they've got their delivery system ready to go, and perhaps they'll refine the idea from skelebot to robotic Xiticix.

The Skelebot bombers are being used lightyly.

They are also sending drop ships of 'prisoner volenteers' into the hives on suicide missions.

I will note they 'lightened' that aspect up from the preview book. in the preivew they were just prisoners, in the full text they're volenteers from the prisoner population. (Even if they don't FULLY know what they're volenteering for) Mixed in with a few highs skilled combatants that want to go out swinging (Juicers on last call etc) That want their familys given citizenship.

This muted down the rather draconian acts a good bit.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As for the Xiticix vs the CS question, remember:

The CS themselves were uncertain whether or not they could win a full-out war against the bugs, even if they started with heavy bombing/nukes.
And at the time of their uncertainty, the CS wrongly estimated the bugs' numbers at 3-4 million.
The bugs' current numbers are 1,196,000,000 higher than the point at which the CS was uncertain of their ability to win a war.

It's my opinion that the CS would be unsure about winning a war vs the x-bugs largely because they would know that they are in dire need of good intel. Once they have more information, figure out what kind of prodding causes the most ouch and are able to get a good idea of hive response and layout, the skullheads will come up with a better strategy than "treat them like they have game stats."

The CS have 'more' informaiton now.

They've taken an entire hive.

Small one, but they've taken it. and by taken it I mean they paid the price in blood and bodies and totally wiped out the bugs.. then... TOOK the hive. Physically. lol shipped it to a secret base and put it back together, for training purposes. Like the worlds biggest ant farm.

[HWalsh]

As for the Xiticix vs the CS question, remember:

The CS themselves were uncertain whether or not they could win a full-out war against the bugs, even if they started with heavy bombing/nukes.
And at the time of their uncertainty, the CS wrongly estimated the bugs' numbers at 3-4 million.
The bugs' current numbers are 1,196,000,000 higher than the point at which the CS was uncertain of their ability to win a war.

It's my opinion that the CS would be unsure about winning a war vs the x-bugs largely because they would know that they are in dire need of good intel. Once they have more information, figure out what kind of prodding causes the most ouch and are able to get a good idea of hive response and layout, the skullheads will come up with a better strategy than "treat them like they have game stats."

The CS have 'more' informaiton now.

They've taken an entire hive.

Small one, but they've taken it. and by taken it I mean they paid the price in blood and bodies and totally wiped out the bugs.. then... TOOK the hive. Physically. lol shipped it to a secret base and put it back together, for training purposes. Like the worlds biggest ant farm.

And we are still supposed to see the Xits as a credible threat to the CS?

They took a Hive, physically. Something MUCH harder to do than any other option. Using none of their most advanced long range weaponry. The most ineffective way possible. Then they did this without having proper intel. You see now why we don't consider the bugs a threat? Because we all know that Kevin S. will not allow anything bad to happen to the CS anyway.

[flatline]

Folks keep talking about the Xiticix as if they're easily fooled. I may have to pick up a copy of Xiticix Invasion to see if they're actually written that way or if folks just have over-simplified understandings of what was written.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

As for the Xiticix vs the CS question, remember:

The CS themselves were uncertain whether or not they could win a full-out war against the bugs, even if they started with heavy bombing/nukes.
And at the time of their uncertainty, the CS wrongly estimated the bugs' numbers at 3-4 million.
The bugs' current numbers are 1,196,000,000 higher than the point at which the CS was uncertain of their ability to win a war.

It's my opinion that the CS would be unsure about winning a war vs the x-bugs largely because they would know that they are in dire need of good intel. Once they have more information, figure out what kind of prodding causes the most ouch and are able to get a good idea of hive response and layout, the skullheads will come up with a better strategy than "treat them like they have game stats."

The CS have 'more' informaiton now.

They've taken an entire hive.

Small one, but they've taken it. and by taken it I mean they paid the price in blood and bodies and totally wiped out the bugs.. then... TOOK the hive. Physically. lol shipped it to a secret base and put it back together, for training purposes. Like the worlds biggest ant farm.

And we are still supposed to see the Xits as a credible threat to the CS?

They took a Hive, physically. Something MUCH harder to do than any other option. Using none of their most advanced long range weaponry. The most ineffective way possible. Then they did this without having proper intel. You see now why we don't consider the bugs a threat? Because we all know that Kevin S. will not allow anything bad to happen to the CS anyway.

Oh for christ sakes. it was a small one. One of the splinter off shoots before they get big and into the millions Wash.

Read the book

Have you not noticed the discussions about HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF WARRIORS they can roll out from EACH hive? You look silly when you make statements like that.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Folks keep talking about the Xiticix as if they're easily fooled. I may have to pick up a copy of Xiticix Invasion to see if they're actually written that way or if folks just have over-simplified understandings of what was written.

--flatline

Ehh... the bugs have a more animalistic sort of intelligence than a 'human' sort of intelligence. The 'sent marker trick' is in the books, but it only works on the lower castes and even then it's iffy.

Once you get to the leader casts or the hunters or what have you, they're smart enough to go 'Smells like us. Looks like a human. Better kill it to make sure"

The queens have relatively high intelligence. Elder queens have an IQ of 21-26... (1D6+20) Which would make her a super genius. Young queens range from 17-21. (16+1D6) Which still puts the dumbest young queen smarter than like 99% of the human population. Now it says they think like a supernatural predator and act on instinct as much as thought but they still have genius level smarts they CAN use.

[Shark_Force]

the xiticix, by and large, *are* easily fooled. (even most of the smarter bugs iirc have a chance to be fooled, it just gets progressively lower the higher up the rankings you go).

but no matter how you slice it, over a billion bugs (even if you can face them "only" 200 million at a time) is a lot.

now, you can thin them out a lot. as noted earlier in the thread, nukes can kill a sizeable portion of the bugs in a hive, but unfortunately as it turns out half of a reaaaaaaally big number is still a reaaaally big number, just not quite as big as it was before, and equally unfortunately it is still getting bigger all the time. probably faster than before actually, since the majority of their food production is deep underground and should survive, so they probably just lay more eggs for a while).

and they're comparatively poorly armed too (many of them don't have much in the way of ranged weapons). but it's *still* a lot of bugs. a ridiculous amount, even. there's a reason not many things in nature mess with ants. quantity has a quality all its own, and the xiticix have a LOT of quantity.

personally, i think an opening missile bombardment to reduce the numbers in an individual hive that you're planning to attack is still well worth the effort, incidentally. i mean, okay, you don't get 100% of the bugs. but when you're facing 200 million bugs at a time, being able to reduce that to "only" 100 million (and taking out most of the primary combatants, leaving mostly comparatively less powerful workers that don't have ranged weapons) at the cost of none of your own troops is a real bargain. it still sucks to then have to go in and mop up at close range in tunnels (which really reduces the range advantage gained by killing many or perhaps even most of the warriors that had ranged weapons), but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's easier to go in after killing half the bugs than it is to go in without killing half the bugs first.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's been a while since I've read the entire Xit book, but I don't think you get 'half" of the hive with a surface strike.I thought it was25% or less.

And yeah... 200,000,000 foes with ranged weapons is still quite a few. Even if you have 9,000,000, that's still what? 22 and change to 1 odds?

[Axelmania]

The titular princess protagonist Star Buttery in "Star vs the Forces of Evil" serves as a really great example of this dichotomy between the good intentions one can have behind one's actions versus whether in a sightlines going back centuries if you are the defender or aggressor.

I didn't expect to come across a link between anything here and Star vs the Forces of Evil.... and nicely done too.

Would be nice if there was an 'art request' section of these forums, I want a pic of Star piloting a SAMAS.

[Shark_Force]

It's been a while since I've read the entire Xit book, but I don't think you get 'half" of the hive with a surface strike.I thought it was25% or less.

And yeah... 200,000,000 foes with ranged weapons is still quite a few. Even if you have 9,000,000, that's still what? 22 and change to 1 odds?

killery cyborg quoted the xiticix book upthread.

35-55% would survive (so 50% surviving is actually slightly generous. but still leaves you with 70-110 million bugs, in tunnels that they know and you don't, so... still kind of a problem, even if most of the warriors are likely to have been nearer the top which is what decides who dies from the bombardment).

that said, supposing it was only 25% that it would kill, that's still 50 million fewer xiticix... i would still consider that well worth it. at potentially up to 130 million xiticix killed, well... i was gonna say you'd almost be crazy not to bomb them first, but i'm going to revise that: you would have to actually be completely crazy to not bomb them first. no almost. you're just a frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic if you decide a frontal assault with no bombardment is the best plan, and while i'm normally not a fan of the CS murdering people who think differently than them, i'd make an exception for the guy who gives orders to not support with a bombardment here.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thing is there's multiple problems with the nuke attack.

Nukes killing millions is what 'triggered' the rifts the first time. Doing so again might trigger a second resurgence and that didn't go so well for humanity the first time. 1000s or tornados tidal waves, earth quakes, volcanos, super storms, and that's before you factor in countless rifts dumping god knows what all over the planet.

In addition to that, the book claims that even after you glass the top, you gotta go into the tunnels and try and kill your way down. You can't actually seal off the tunnels due to the rapidity the 'digger's can form new tunnels (Only a 10% chance, says the book) And that the cost in lives would be extreme.

Not to mention inspite of the way that rifts presents it, these area's are NOT that spread out. You're talking an hour by air or maybe two. The hive lands are just a state or two over from the CS homeland. You 'can' nuke people but if you lived in Illinois would you really want to be setting off dozens of high yield nuclear weapons in Minnesota?

The book also states that if the CS goes balls to the wall on this, that it fully commits the CS, that from that point on all the Bugs would see anything with a death's head motif as a Kill on Sight mortal enemy and even have retaliation swarms launched from the hivelands into the CS proper in retaliation.

So unless they can take out the 1.2 billion all at once.. they can't really 'pick' the fight.

Remember even with 9,000,000 under arms as per HoH you can't put 9,000,000 on the front lines. You have to have troops in reserve to "hold your territory" Or any of your dozen other enmies come scooting in the back door when your troops are on the front lines fighting bugs.

[Shark_Force]

doesn't make sense that all the 1.2 billion would immediately ID them from missiles. i mean, what, is it a requirement that the CS learns to write in xiticix and send a skywriter missile like in the old cheesy 60s batman movie to announce precisely who launched the missiles and how to recognize them for all the other hives?

and in any event, your options suck either way, but they suck less with missile bombardment first (doesn't necessarily have to be nukes, though it would take a *lot* of non-nukes). you're going to have to go into the tunnels no matter what - there is no option where you don't go into the tunnels. if you glass the surface, you go in while there are up to 110 million bugs (possibly as few as 70 million), most of which will be workers, nannies, etc. if you don't glass the surface, you go in while there are 200 million bugs for sure, many of which will be warriors.

as you can see, both options are terrible, but one option is clearly *less* terrible.

now, i wouldn't say it's a good enough option to go right now without any further plans, because that still leaves you in a best-case scenario of needing to kill 70+ million bugs 6 times using less than 10 million soldiers total, and there are some very obvious challenges in accomplishing that. so you better have a plan for how you're gonna pull off stage 2. but stage 1 is a no-brainer. you don't go in without bombing them.

[J_cobbers]

The titular princess protagonist Star Buttery in "Star vs the Forces of Evil" serves as a really great example of this dichotomy between the good intentions one can have behind one's actions versus whether in a sightlines going back centuries if you are the defender or aggressor.

I didn't expect to come across a link between anything here and Star vs the Forces of Evil.... and nicely done too.

Would be nice if there was an 'art request' section of these forums, I want a pic of Star piloting a SAMAS.

Just because of this thread I am just a few episodes into it over the last few days, that show is hilariously great.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thing is there's multiple problems with the nuke attack.

Nukes killing millions is what 'triggered' the rifts the first time. Doing so again might trigger a second resurgence and that didn't go so well for humanity the first time. 1000s or tornados tidal waves, earth quakes, volcanos, super storms, and that's before you factor in countless rifts dumping god knows what all over the planet.

Eh. The first time, it wasn't just the deaths--it was also a certain planetary alignment that only happens once in a LONG time.
I don't think the risk of this would be high, and I don't know that the CS even knows for certain what caused the Coming of the Rifts the first time.

Not to mention inspite of the way that rifts presents it, these area's are NOT that spread out. You're talking an hour by air or maybe two. The hive lands are just a state or two over from the CS homeland. You 'can' nuke people but if you lived in Illinois would you really want to be setting off dozens of high yield nuclear weapons in Minnesota?

Yeah... they're "clean" nukes, but it still seems like a bad idea.

While we're talking about it, exactly how far IS Duluth from Chi-Town?

The book also states that if the CS goes balls to the wall on this, that it fully commits the CS, that from that point on all the Bugs would see anything with a death's head motif as a Kill on Sight mortal enemy and even have retaliation swarms launched from the hivelands into the CS proper in retaliation.

So unless they can take out the 1.2 billion all at once.. they can't really 'pick' the fight.

If the CS attacks only one hive, then they might end up fighting only that one hive.
But ~100 million angry bugs is still some pretty bad (aka apocalyptic) news.

Remember even with 9,000,000 under arms as per HoH you can't put 9,000,000 on the front lines. You have to have troops in reserve to "hold your territory" Or any of your dozen other enemies come scooting in the back door when your troops are on the front lines fighting bugs.

I need to get that book.

And yeah, the CS's troops are scattered out across CS territory.
The bugs can send tens of millions of troops at one spot.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thing is there's multiple problems with the nuke attack.

Nukes killing millions is what 'triggered' the rifts the first time. Doing so again might trigger a second resurgence and that didn't go so well for humanity the first time. 1000s or tornados tidal waves, earth quakes, volcanos, super storms, and that's before you factor in countless rifts dumping god knows what all over the planet.

Eh. The first time, it wasn't just the deaths--it was also a certain planetary alignment that only happens once in a LONG time.
I don't think the risk of this would be high, and I don't know that the CS even knows for certain what caused the Coming of the Rifts the first time.

Death does cause the ppe release though and millions would spike it. Do we know this would cause another coming of rifts? No no no no. But it's the sort of thing one might want to factor in. Just in case. Kill a few bugs but destroy the planet... AGAIN... seems like a bad trade off. It ---might--- also explain why nukes aren't used more often to take out huge armies of evil. I mean.. Calgry is a 'kingdom of evil' or something in the north. if it was just that simple 'Nuke um and be done' you'd think they'd have done so already.

Not to mention inspite of the way that rifts presents it, these area's are NOT that spread out. You're talking an hour by air or maybe two. The hive lands are just a state or two over from the CS homeland. You 'can' nuke people but if you lived in Illinois would you really want to be setting off dozens of high yield nuclear weapons in Minnesota?

Yeah... they're "clean" nukes, but it still seems like a bad idea.

While we're talking about it, exactly how far IS Duluth from Chi-Town?

468 miles by road. Less as the crow flys. Only an hour and thirty minutes on commercial airlines... so.. alot less by military transport I'd guess.

And yean "clean nukes" or no, like you said it seems like a bad idea. We don't have tons of knowledge on nukes in the game because they're not really meant to be used in the game. Nukes kinda do what ever the GM says they do. as they're more 'story elements' than 'weapons to be shot at someone in a fight"

The book also states that if the CS goes balls to the wall on this, that it fully commits the CS, that from that point on all the Bugs would see anything with a death's head motif as a Kill on Sight mortal enemy and even have retaliation swarms launched from the hivelands into the CS proper in retaliation.

So unless they can take out the 1.2 billion all at once.. they can't really 'pick' the fight.

If the CS attacks only one hive, then they might end up fighting only that one hive.
But ~100 million angry bugs is still some pretty bad (aka apocalyptic) news.

I read the section last night. It seemed to imply that once engaging on that level, that for lack of a better term, word would spread and the CS would be comitted for the entirerty.

It was very clear that if they go in hard core, it's an all or nothing proposition.

Remember even with 9,000,000 under arms as per HoH you can't put 9,000,000 on the front lines. You have to have troops in reserve to "hold your territory" Or any of your dozen other enemies come scooting in the back door when your troops are on the front lines fighting bugs.

I need to get that book.

It's pretty good. There's some bumps in the road, and you can tell where the equipment section was yanked out to make the second book, but over all it's pretty good. if nothing else it addresses alot of things that we often speculate about here. lol

And yeah, the CS's troops are scattered out across CS territory.
The bugs can send tens of millions of troops at one spot.

And there in lies the rub. the CS while it has millions of troops (and lets make no mistake. nine million troops is an UNGODLY number of troops.), but while the CS has millions of troops, the bugs have over a billion. Even if they lost 10 bugs to every CS troop taken out, the CS would still be destroyed to the last man and the bugs would still have hundreds of millions of bugs left and they breed fast.

[Shark_Force]

if you don't kill the bugs, you lose the planet anyways. the problem isn't getting any smaller, after all... if there are 1.2 billion bugs today, you can be sure there's going to be more than 1.2 billion tomorrow.

again, I'm not saying it's go time and the CS should immediately launch an assault (though again, they most likely do have an offensive army of 9 million... they've almost certainly got over 1 million ISS as a defensive army in addition to that). they need something better than "march into the tunnels and hope we miraculously don't all die". but some time, sooner or later, their entire plan should begin with missile bombardment, because if you don't you're gonna have to go into the tunnels and deal with the 90+ million bugs you could've blown up in one shot.

[Pepsi Jedi]

what they need, and about the only thing that will 'work' is a bio/chemical agent that can target the bugs, but not kill everything else on earth, with a short half life.

Up till now, they don't have such a thing, but realistically that's about the only thing that's going to work against current numbers.

[eliakon]

what they need, and about the only thing that will 'work' is a bio/chemical agent that can target the bugs, but not kill everything else on earth, with a short half life.

Up till now, they don't have such a thing, but realistically that's about the only thing that's going to work against current numbers.

Meh, the area the bugs have taken over is pretty much a lost cause anyway.
Spraying it with a total "kill everything organic" toxin is not going to be an issue, and honestly is probably a GOOD idea.

Once you have sterilized the area through a combination of nuclear, chemical, conventional, and possibly biological weapons (and depending on who else is involved psychic, magical, necromantic and what ever else you come up with) THEN you worry about re-terraforming it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well that seems self defeating. Remember the land is very close to the CS proper and just becasuse they're squatting on it now, doesn't mean you want to render it fallow for future generations.

The CS have genetics that can take a common dog an raise him up to a full sapient being that's bipedal has full human hands, and can talk AND is a major psychic with like 98% perfection rate on it.

I would think that forming a genetically engineered poision to target ONLY the bugs would be a simple thing.
That said the bugs are "Alien" so alll bets are off, but in theory it shouldn't be too hard.

That they haven't yet, tells us it's harder than you think. I mean some were along the way someone had to have said "What we need is a big ass can of Raid!" and someone else went 'Wait.. can't they make that at lone star??"

Btu going full NBC over the entire area and writing it off seems... less than intelligent. You want to taylor it to target only the Xits and even then you want what ever it is to become innert almost instantly. just incase it turns out to kill.... humans.. or.. bees....

[eliakon]

Oh, and I just found what I was looking for.
Nerve Gas DOES affect MD beings. First example I found is in Australia page 202 where the nerve toxin does 1d6x10 HP or 1d4x10 MD and go unconscious...
Sounds like the perfect thing for bug hunting!

[Pepsi Jedi]

It'd need to be heavier than air to even start to work. Does it stipulate that?

Edit: Wel lto be clear it could 'Start' to work if it's not, but to work seriously it would need to descend down into the hive.

[eliakon]

It'd need to be heavier than air to even start to work. Does it stipulate that?

Edit: Wel lto be clear it could 'Start' to work if it's not, but to work seriously it would need to descend down into the hive.

My point was that we don't have to imagine creating some toxins from whole cloth, the canon already says that poison works on MD beings and that the idea that there is some protection is a myth.
That means that since the various poisons have HP/MD damages it follows that it should be just as easy to make various other kinds of agents; persistent, dusts, heavier than air, etc.

[eliakon]

Well that seems self defeating. Remember the land is very close to the CS proper and just becasuse they're squatting on it now, doesn't mean you want to render it fallow for future generations.

The CS have genetics that can take a common dog an raise him up to a full sapient being that's bipedal has full human hands, and can talk AND is a major psychic with like 98% perfection rate on it.

I would think that forming a genetically engineered poision to target ONLY the bugs would be a simple thing.
That said the bugs are "Alien" so alll bets are off, but in theory it shouldn't be too hard.

That they haven't yet, tells us it's harder than you think. I mean some were along the way someone had to have said "What we need is a big ass can of Raid!" and someone else went 'Wait.. can't they make that at lone star??"

Btu going full NBC over the entire area and writing it off seems... less than intelligent. You want to taylor it to target only the Xits and even then you want what ever it is to become innert almost instantly. just incase it turns out to kill.... humans.. or.. bees....

Oh I am not writing it off.
I am scrubbing it clean of the Xictic infestation and all the xenoforming that they have done, then once it is clean I am going to go back in and reterraform it. I don't think the CS (or anybody) Wants the Xictic ecosystem anymore than they want the Xictic.

And that they haven't yet only tells us that the metagame story arc has not had it happen yet.
I would also like to point out that while in the real world it has been 26 years, in game only eight years have passed since the setting opened to today.
Eight years that the CS has already dealt with: The Mechanoids, The Juicer Uprising, The Siege on Tolkeen, The Naruni, The Quebec incident, redesigning their entire arsenal, and right now have some demons with delusions of grandeur running around...
They have been busy little skullheads, and they haven't known how dangerous the bugs were until just recently...

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh, and I just found what I was looking for.
Nerve Gas DOES affect MD beings. First example I found is in Australia page 202 where the nerve toxin does 1d6x10 HP or 1d4x10 MD and go unconscious...
Sounds like the perfect thing for bug hunting!

Don't have that book handy.
Does it say that all nerve gas affects MDC beings, or does it simply list one that does?

(Either way, if the CS has access to what's described, it could be quite handy against the bugs)

[The Beast]

It'd need to be heavier than air to even start to work. Does it stipulate that?

Edit: Wel lto be clear it could 'Start' to work if it's not, but to work seriously it would need to descend down into the hive.

If I remember my NBC training right, all nerve gasses are heavier than air. I believe a good portion of the chemical ones are as well.

EDIT: One should also consider the history of chemical warfare. Many of the ones around today were conceived in WW1, with trench warfare in mind. Trenches were dug into the ground. If the chemical weapons used were lighter than air, none of it would get into the trenches unless you managed to get the shell into the trench. Even then, once the shell exploded the chemical would leave the trenches.

So yes, if you're using chemical weapons, it's likely that it's heavier than air.

[Killer Cyborg]

IIRC, the overall context of the bug discussion is the question of whether or not the CS military is justified in existing in its current size due to external threats, such as the xiticix.

Does anybody here still think that the CS, with a much smaller, weaker army, would not be threatened by the roughly 1.2 billion xiticix?

[eliakon]

IIRC, the overall context of the bug discussion is the question of whether or not the CS military is justified in existing in its current size due to external threats, such as the xiticix.

Does anybody here still think that the CS, with a much smaller, weaker army, would not be threatened by the roughly 1.2 billion xiticix?

I say that the question is a false one, since it relies on using out of game information (the size of the enemies the CS faces) to justify an in game decision (the size of the CS army)

Basically that argument boils down to "The CS Army is justified because Karl Prosek is a metagamer" which I have a bit of a problem with.

[guardiandashi]

Oh, and I just found what I was looking for.
Nerve Gas DOES affect MD beings. First example I found is in Australia page 202 where the nerve toxin does 1d6x10 HP or 1d4x10 MD and go unconscious...
Sounds like the perfect thing for bug hunting!

Don't have that book handy.
Does it say that all nerve gas affects MDC beings, or does it simply list one that does?

(Either way, if the CS has access to what's described, it could be quite handy against the bugs)

Wikipedia entry on VX (nerve agent) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)
whether it would work on Xiticix or not its nasty nasty stuff, and I am sure that if the coalition pulled out a few Xiticix (preferably alive) they could engineer an equivalent.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It'd need to be heavier than air to even start to work. Does it stipulate that?

Edit: Wel lto be clear it could 'Start' to work if it's not, but to work seriously it would need to descend down into the hive.

If I remember my NBC training right, all nerve gasses are heavier than air. I believe a good portion of the chemical ones are as well.

EDIT: One should also consider the history of chemical warfare. Many of the ones around today were conceived in WW1, with trench warfare in mind. Trenches were dug into the ground. If the chemical weapons used were lighter than air, none of it would get into the trenches unless you managed to get the shell into the trench. Even then, once the shell exploded the chemical would leave the trenches.

So yes, if you're using chemical weapons, it's likely that it's heavier than air.

Items developed to kill humans in the trenches of WWI aren't going to be the ones killing MDC bugs from an alien planet in 110PA Rifts earth tough.

[eliakon]

It'd need to be heavier than air to even start to work. Does it stipulate that?

Edit: Wel lto be clear it could 'Start' to work if it's not, but to work seriously it would need to descend down into the hive.

If I remember my NBC training right, all nerve gasses are heavier than air. I believe a good portion of the chemical ones are as well.

EDIT: One should also consider the history of chemical warfare. Many of the ones around today were conceived in WW1, with trench warfare in mind. Trenches were dug into the ground. If the chemical weapons used were lighter than air, none of it would get into the trenches unless you managed to get the shell into the trench. Even then, once the shell exploded the chemical would leave the trenches.

So yes, if you're using chemical weapons, it's likely that it's heavier than air.

Items developed to kill humans in the trenches of WWI aren't going to be the ones killing MDC bugs from an alien planet in 110PA Rifts earth tough.

Going by the fact that both Nerve Gas and Tear Gas affect MDC beings they just might...

[Pepsi Jedi]

It'd need to be heavier than air to even start to work. Does it stipulate that?

Edit: Wel lto be clear it could 'Start' to work if it's not, but to work seriously it would need to descend down into the hive.

If I remember my NBC training right, all nerve gasses are heavier than air. I believe a good portion of the chemical ones are as well.

EDIT: One should also consider the history of chemical warfare. Many of the ones around today were conceived in WW1, with trench warfare in mind. Trenches were dug into the ground. If the chemical weapons used were lighter than air, none of it would get into the trenches unless you managed to get the shell into the trench. Even then, once the shell exploded the chemical would leave the trenches.

So yes, if you're using chemical weapons, it's likely that it's heavier than air.

Items developed to kill humans in the trenches of WWI aren't going to be the ones killing MDC bugs from an alien planet in 110PA Rifts earth tough.

Going by the fact that both Nerve Gas and Tear Gas affect MDC beings they just might...

Do they afect alien bugs? Because that's a bit different.

Where was the 'nerve gas' that affects stuff found again? I'd like to take a peek at it.

[guardiandashi]

It'd need to be heavier than air to even start to work. Does it stipulate that?

Edit: Wel lto be clear it could 'Start' to work if it's not, but to work seriously it would need to descend down into the hive.

If I remember my NBC training right, all nerve gasses are heavier than air. I believe a good portion of the chemical ones are as well.

EDIT: One should also consider the history of chemical warfare. Many of the ones around today were conceived in WW1, with trench warfare in mind. Trenches were dug into the ground. If the chemical weapons used were lighter than air, none of it would get into the trenches unless you managed to get the shell into the trench. Even then, once the shell exploded the chemical would leave the trenches.

So yes, if you're using chemical weapons, it's likely that it's heavier than air.

Items developed to kill humans in the trenches of WWI aren't going to be the ones killing MDC bugs from an alien planet in 110PA Rifts earth tough.

Going by the fact that both Nerve Gas and Tear Gas affect MDC beings they just might...

Do they afect alien bugs? Because that's a bit different.

Where was the 'nerve gas' that affects stuff found again? I'd like to take a peek at it.

pg 202 Australia the ammo options for the NeraTech Pn-50 splatterGun

Damage: Varies as follows.
Acid: 4D6 S.D.C. or 2D6 M.D., depending on what type of target
it hits, in a one yard/meter splatter radius.
Sleep Agent: Opponents not wearing environmental body armor
must roll to save vs non-lethal poison (16 or higher) or fall
asleep within 1D4 melee rounds. The area affected has a radius
of one yard/meter per pellet fired. Victims sleep for 1D4+2 minutes
per pellet of exposure.
Toxin or Nerve Gas: Victims not wearing environmental body
armor must save vs lethal poisons (12 or higher). If the save
fails, the target is racked by convulsions (incapable of fighting
or running), suffers !D6xlO damage direct to Hit Points
(1D4x10 M.D. if a Mega-Damage creature), and will lapse into
unconsciousness for 2D4+4 minutes. Even if the save is successful,
the target takes 1D6+1 direct to Hit Points (or M.D.C.).
The gas cloud has a one yard/meter radius per pellet fired.
Demons, characters in body armor or under some other suitable
shielding are immune to this nasty effect, injecting oneself with
an anti-nerve agent will reduce damage of the gas or toxin by
half and the victim will not lose consciousness or suffer from
convulsions, and can continue to fight.
Rate of Fire: Standard, including bursts!

paint clip $40
sleep agent $1200
toxin or nerve gas 20,500
acid $2700

so the nerve gas is not cheap

[The Beast]

It'd need to be heavier than air to even start to work. Does it stipulate that?

Edit: Wel lto be clear it could 'Start' to work if it's not, but to work seriously it would need to descend down into the hive.

If I remember my NBC training right, all nerve gasses are heavier than air. I believe a good portion of the chemical ones are as well.

EDIT: One should also consider the history of chemical warfare. Many of the ones around today were conceived in WW1, with trench warfare in mind. Trenches were dug into the ground. If the chemical weapons used were lighter than air, none of it would get into the trenches unless you managed to get the shell into the trench. Even then, once the shell exploded the chemical would leave the trenches.

So yes, if you're using chemical weapons, it's likely that it's heavier than air.

Items developed to kill humans in the trenches of WWI aren't going to be the ones killing MDC bugs from an alien planet in 110PA Rifts earth tough.

Which would be a valid point had I said to use WW1-era chemical weapons. What I said was to look at the history of the type of weapon someone here wishes to use on the bugs.

[Pepsi Jedi]

*Opens the book and reads it* Wow.... that's just.. epicly stupid. lol

Not you.

Just.. "Lets have NERVE GAS Paint balls and fire them out of a paint ball gun... epicly stupid. lol The range is just 60 feet. What happens if one of the pellets pops in the paintball gun?? Which happens. Suddenly you're in a cloud of nerve gas. lol

Can you think of any sort of situation you'd want to be with in 60 feet of 'nerve gas'?

Reading over it, I don't know that it would hurt the Xits. If demons are immune (just by being demons) and people in body armor are immune (By being in armor) the Xits might very well be immune, as their exoskeleton might function as defacto body armor. It might very well fall under "under some other suitable shielding"

knowing how hard it is to get rid of regular bugs, a few inches or smaller, combating alien ones that are 6 feet or taller and megadamage...

I'm not sure this generic aussie 'nerve gas' would work.

It'd surely be a GM call. I'm just going to stagger off shaking my head at the concept of putting nerve gas in paintballs and shooting nerve gas, a maximum of 60ft.