Alrik Vas wrote:Borging and Juicing an 8th of your population seems counter productive in war unless your situation is do dire you're facing extinction if you don't.
Is that how Palladium paints this situation, or just how the CS sees it?
Pretty big portion of these guys ARENT citizens.
'Burb people aren't citizens and aren't counted in the CS population figures. They barely consider them people.
They are offering it to citizens but most of the fresh recruits are burb dwellers who are not considered citizens and people responding to the day of forgiveness which is basically if you are human and willing to join the fight the CS is enlisting them and giving them one time clemency for past misdeeds or involvements with undesirables.
Another oddity of the Death Knight is they don't get the option of taking OCC related/Secondary skills, and instead get several of the AT courses. That makes sense in a way for what is really a CS hack and slash class, but I noticed a problem. The class has a sdc automatic pistol, energy pistol(energy sidearm), and various knives(bone, silver) as standard equipment without the matching WPs, or the ability to grab them as Related/Secondary skills. The only option I see is to take some combination of AT classes to pick up the missing WPs. Something like Marksmanship AT with a WP of choice instead of Targeting, CQC AT for one ancient and one modern WP (already having MA or Commando HTH makes this a sort of wasted slot), or Officer AT course for WP Knife and WP Handgun (assuming the "short" course version?). Several of the combinations can give you the WPs to handle the standard equipment for the class(Wp Knife, WP Handgun, WP Energy Pistol), but still leave the Death Knight without Energy Rifle, which I would think is the basis of military training in Rifts.
As for the different P-Beam rifle, I took the Death Knight one being more assault rifle sized in comparison to the armor instead of man sized like the War Campaign gun. Plus the cable system is new, and probably not setup for the giant rifle.
The Coalition is hardly unique amongst RIFTs political entities being described with an overabundance of troops. Most descriptions of cities in RIFTs involve unsustainably large portions of the populace made up by the military or combat O.C.C.s
Although in a world where demons/dragons and other monsters actually exist cities/states may find them finding ways to sustain an awful lot of military/combat related OCC's. When your city/town/village could find itself literally invaded out of the blue with almost no warning it would make some sense to have as many police/troops as possible. And then just about every able bodied man and probably no small amount of women likely get some basic military/militia training.
This is common in a lot of small countries like isreal or switzerland where effectively everybody for a few years joins their military for training. So technically in those countries other than those physically disabled or get waivers for other reasons sucha s religeon efffectively have near 100% of their population military trained.
I tend to agree with the militia angle. I would think most people in Rift's North America have something like HTH Basic, WP Energy Rifle, and WP Handgun and/or WP Energy Pistol, Military Etiquette, and Forced March at 2nd level, even if they don't have it in any regular skill selection to represent some sort of training.
hth basic, multiple WPs, military etiquette, and forced march? that seems excessive.
I could believe hth basic for many (the biggest difference between hth basic and no hth skill at level 1 is automatic parry, which I don't see most militia being able to reflexively block melee attacks without interfering with their other actions) along with a single WP, but I don't think most places are going to train their regular civilian militia to be able to use a large variety of weapons. more likely, the civilian militia will own their equipment, and won't really have much in the way of training as soldiers... they're not there to fend off the CS military (because it's laughably implausible for them to pull that off no matter how well-trained they are), they're there to fend off roaming groups of bandits and the occasional supernatural predator.
RockJock wrote:Another oddity of the Death Knight is they don't get the option of taking OCC related/Secondary skills, and instead get several of the AT courses. That makes sense in a way for what is really a CS hack and slash class, but I noticed a problem. The class has a sdc automatic pistol, energy pistol(energy sidearm), and various knives(bone, silver) as standard equipment without the matching WPs, or the ability to grab them as Related/Secondary skills. The only option I see is to take some combination of AT classes to pick up the missing WPs. Something like Marksmanship AT with a WP of choice instead of Targeting, CQC AT for one ancient and one modern WP (already having MA or Commando HTH makes this a sort of wasted slot), or Officer AT course for WP Knife and WP Handgun (assuming the "short" course version?). Several of the combinations can give you the WPs to handle the standard equipment for the class(Wp Knife, WP Handgun, WP Energy Pistol), but still leave the Death Knight without Energy Rifle, which I would think is the basis of military training in Rifts.
As for the different P-Beam rifle, I took the Death Knight one being more assault rifle sized in comparison to the armor instead of man sized like the War Campaign gun. Plus the cable system is new, and probably not setup for the giant rifle.
I reread this as well. One thing to note though is they do have WP heavy MDC weaponry which covers things like plasma rifles/particle beam rifles so in theory they at the bat are just really heavy weapon operator oriented. If they pick up the AT for officer training that gives them pistol and one WP of choice so they could take knife and then have WP for all their standard equipment.
I find it pretty likely anybody with access to it probably would pick up the marksman AT especially for a heavy combat oriented OCC. One thing I found odd it says they favor the stalking/stealth AT but neither of those seems to make a lick of sense for a power armor shock trooper OCC.
One thing I also find odd is the options for the elite flying armor/vehicle AT especially the focused one are a LOT better than the ground power armor/ground vehicle variant. Otherwise that would be a no brainer being able to reroll two dodges/attacks every round is really nice.
I just threw those skills out there for very basic training. Military Etiquette is a pretty basic skill I would think anyone with any amount of military training would have. I did Forced March to represent the physical portion, along with Basic HTH General Athletics, or even Manual Labor would work. The two WPs might be too much, so drop it to just Energy Rifle. I thought that was a pretty good militia, or basic conscript skill set. I want to say there are book mentions of skills help by city militia, or mages in the militia, but I'm not going to pour through books looking for one.
It sort of kills the point of the AT packages to me if you need to take a certain combination to have the WPs for the standard OCC equipment.
The Stealth/Stalking is a bit strange as well.
Heavy weapons is great, but would you have a machine gunner who can't fire a rifle? It just hits me as odd, and means the Death Knight does not go through "basic training" with everyone else. Nothing wrong, just odd to me.
At first glance without playing with AT packages I think I like the Robotech Marine MOS system better.
It really depends on how hard and dedicated a city may want a militia to be. Historically, militias were mostly volunteers of a town that sought to protect it and some militia units became irregular forces of a bigger army. Such militias did so in the Seven Years war and the War for American Independence and even the American Civil War. These militias did drills, trained in arms, and learned some military tactics. Most of the time they were lead by an experienced officer of a regular force. They did not have the discipline as regular forces did, but they were not meant to, at least not in 18th century warfare. On weapons training, even militias learned how to use bayonet, tomahawk, and knife along with muskets.
I would consider in Rifts Earth that a militia maybe a kin to a national guard unit, but less national more town, community focused. Today's national guard branches learn basic training, which includes firearms, so I don't see why a town militia wouldn't train their volunteers in SDC Rifles and Pistols and their Energy equivalents. Both rifles at the least. Some may have handgun training on their own as a hobby. Probably some sort of physical test every now and then. If the town/militia can afford it, maybe a couple heavy weapons specialists.
RockJock wrote:I just threw those skills out there for very basic training. Military Etiquette is a pretty basic skill I would think anyone with any amount of military training would have. I did Forced March to represent the physical portion, along with Basic HTH General Athletics, or even Manual Labor would work. The two WPs might be too much, so drop it to just Energy Rifle. I thought that was a pretty good militia, or basic conscript skill set. I want to say there are book mentions of skills help by city militia, or mages in the militia, but I'm not going to pour through books looking for one.
It sort of kills the point of the AT packages to me if you need to take a certain combination to have the WPs for the standard OCC equipment.
The Stealth/Stalking is a bit strange as well.
Heavy weapons is great, but would you have a machine gunner who can't fire a rifle? It just hits me as odd, and means the Death Knight does not go through "basic training" with everyone else. Nothing wrong, just odd to me.
At first glance without playing with AT packages I think I like the Robotech Marine MOS system better.
They are different. MOS has better skill range but some of the AT come with some pretty serious attribute/other ability bonuses. Such as given the DK start with demon hunting AT that is along with all the other boost +1 attack per round vs supernatural and if they pick up martial training as one of their options they get a second +1 attack boost but this one is to everything. For somebody making a samas pilot the super focused pilot training option is outstanding. Letting you reroll two attacks or dodges every single round is pretty spectacular. That really helps your overall odds of performing those actions at clutch times.
Resource issues - its about time (it also verifies issues that were first reported in aftermath in regards to food production)
Military stuff was good.
Advancrd training - awesome concept....severaly lacking in implementation imo.
Over all good book. Usefull book. Not great though.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
That's an average of 21 (rounding down) skills given up at start vs. 8-10 given up later, in exchange for two AT MOS. I get focused vs. general skill, but still.
I think that is more symptomatic of the occ system as a whole.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
I'm not sure how that wold be symptomatic of the OOC system. The issue is gross cost imbalance. If, say, the cost was all future Related and Secondary you'd have a reasonable skill sacrifice. Having the average cost being 10-14 skills compares much better to 8-10, rather than 16-25. Especially when staring character do not have the option of taking only one AT. The only thing this seems symptomatic of is over valuing the benefit of the ATs for a starting characters compared to an established one.
And the Advanced training isn't really "for" vagabonds and what not. It's advanced military training you'll need to have access to, to obtain. A bum with his bag of candy isn't goig to suddenly find himself in a military's advance training schools.
Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.
Some of the AT actually have a pretty large number of skills in them some are more combat bonus oriented. Like the two versions of the pilot training. The first varient has a ton of pilot related/handy skills and has a default of you can fly anything with wings option at a default level of skill which is pretty handy for rift type adventurers.
The second is almost no skills but some seriously good in combat bonuses like two rerolls of attacks or dodges every melee round.
Some like the demon hunter actually starts with 3 AT right off the bat. Demon hunter AT is part of the OCC by default and then they can pick two of choice.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:And the Advanced training isn't really "for" vagabonds and what not. It's advanced military training you'll need to have access to, to obtain. A bum with his bag of candy isn't goig to suddenly find himself in a military's advance training schools.
Well, they are one of three Adventurer OOCs singled out as being able to take them. Removing them has little impact on the averages.
kaid wrote:Some of the AT actually have a pretty large number of skills in them some are more combat bonus oriented. Like the two versions of the pilot training. The first varient has a ton of pilot related/handy skills and has a default of you can fly anything with wings option at a default level of skill which is pretty handy for rift type adventurers.
The second is almost no skills but some seriously good in combat bonuses like two rerolls of attacks or dodges every melee round.
Some like the demon hunter actually starts with 3 AT right off the bat. Demon hunter AT is part of the OCC by default and then they can pick two of choice.
Yeah and none of that matters to the point. Starting characters are paying more than double for the same benefits as an established ones. Because reasons.
They also get the combat benefits much sooner some of which are highly potent depending what is picked. Being able to start at level one with 2 more attacks depending on your target, hand to hand commando a number of boosts to physical/mental stats for a lot of combat oriented attacks could be worth doing.
Some like the death knight effectively has 3 AT right at level 1 which also helps swing the costs a bit more in their favor.
For a lot of OCC it makes more sense to wait and get it after the fact if you are allowed to and can find the time to do so.
If one is playing in a CS campaign or a triax as I assume they would have similar options somebody with two AT at level 1 also RP wise has to be seen as a rising star. Generally each AT gives you one bump up in rank so somebody starting with two is basically already a sergeant at level 1 and likely eyed as somebody who may be going NCO or officer career wise.
kaid wrote:They also get the combat benefits much sooner some of which are highly potent depending what is picked. Being able to start at level one with 2 more attacks depending on your target, hand to hand commando a number of boosts to physical/mental stats for a lot of combat oriented attacks could be worth doing.
Some like the death knight effectively has 3 AT right at level 1 which also helps swing the costs a bit more in their favor.
For a lot of OCC it makes more sense to wait and get it after the fact if you are allowed to and can find the time to do so.
If one is playing in a CS campaign or a triax as I assume they would have similar options somebody with two AT at level 1 also RP wise has to be seen as a rising star. Generally each AT gives you one bump up in rank so somebody starting with two is basically already a sergeant at level 1 and likely eyed as somebody who may be going NCO or officer career wise.
The Death Knight is irrelevant to the point. It actually gets three of them at no actual cost since you have no choice in taking them and is the only class that like that.
Getting the bonuses earlier does not make them 2-3 times better then waiting. That's not even going into combat bonuses not being the sum total of what ATs do. The benefits of waiting until third level far out weight the benefits of taking them at start. This is a problem. There is a massive cost imbalance.
Unless of course your campaigns dont last very long and characters barely make or dont make 3rd level at all by the end.
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree
