The Coalition Should Lose a Battle/War In The Metaplot

[HWalsh]

As it stands now the Coalition is kind of, okay let us be honest, they are very much a Mary Sue. They always win, they always have the strangest coincidences happen in their favor (Somehow all of these troops managed to make it through the heart of Xiticis territory without losing almost anyone at just the right moment to stomp Tolkeen into the dirt) they always come out on top and anyone who disagrees with them is proven to be wrong. (Free Quebec at the last minute anyone?)

So... It seems, in the Metaplot, it is time for the CS to make a mistake. A bad one. It is time for the bad guys to finally lose something significantly enough that they actually legitimately appear to be (and are) vulnerable. Now, this doesn't mean they should be wiped out or weakened to the point of being a paper tiger, it just means that they need to realize that they have a serious problem and that they need to be more careful when and how they pick their battles.

So, if you were writing the metaplot, what would you have their mistake be?

(I'll toss mine in as a reply to this main master post)

[flatline]

The mistake was advancing the time line in the first place.

If you ignore the time line advancement and just take what ideas you like out of each book, then the CS has whatever advancements and victories/losses that you decide they have.

--flatline

[HWalsh]

Now, when I consider this, I see there being 4 likely possibilities for the CS to legitimately screw up.

1. Lazlo - Attacking Lazlo would be foolish for the CS. Lazlo doesn't have the baggage that Tolkeen did as far as things go. Attacking Lazlo could have unforeseen consequences like re-uniting the Cyber-Knights, who I doubt would allow Lazlo to fall without at least trying to fight them, or worse have other groups that are fairly opposed to Lazlo, such as the Federation of Magic, strike in aid to Lazlo simply because they hate the CS much more.

2. The Xiticix - If the CS decided that they had to move against the alien bugs, it could be a huge mistake. Not only could the Xiticix decide to actively attempt to raze something like Chi-Town but again, if the CS leaves themselves vulnerable it could be very bad for them. Extending or overextending their forces due to hubris and overconfidence following their victory at Tolkeen could be massive.

3. The Republicans - The Republicans do pose a serious threat to the Coalition States. Either through their assassination plans, or simply outright attack, the Republicans could do tremendous damage.

4. A.R.C.H.I.E. Three - This is perhaps, in my opinion, one of the most likely events. If A.R.C.H.I.E. Three decides that the Coalition States could be used by the Republicans against him, or simply feels that their Campaign of Unity could be a legitimate threat to him, he could work to seriously throw a monkey wrench into the works. Not to destroy them, of course, but to slow them down.

-----

So, the scenario I am going with is something I call, "Dividing Powers." It is an A.R.C.H.I.E. Three plot that reignites the war between the Coalition States and Free Quebec. It is a pretty simple plot, A.R.C.H.I.E. Three creates a new type of Anti-Glitterboy unit. Essentially this unit would sport the CS Death's Head motif and be built specifically to kill Glitterboys. It would be fast, lightly armored, designed to work in squads of 3-5, and most importantly stealth-capable. The unit would primarily fight in melee, and close range, combat, though it would also carry something that appears to be a CV-213 rifle for ranged combat. For melee combat it would use something that resembles a MD chainsaw that does incredible damage which it uses to target the Glitterboy's weapon systems, most importantly, the Boom Gun.

These robots would use programming structures similar to those of the Coalition's Skelebots and, like the Shemarrian, would be programmed to self-destruct if killed doing further damage to the surroundings. The rubble would be just enough to reveal those similarities. A.R.C.H.I.E. Three would release three of these to enter into Free Quebec territory and attack groups of Free Quebec Glitterboy Scouts. These would be ambush attacks, and would continue until they had all been destroyed.

Several months before the release A.R.C.H.I.E. Three would make sure that some documents and schematics for these robots would make it to the black market, along with a vaguely worded mission statement referencing something about the robots being designed for use in something called, Operation: Northern Unity. These documents are all forgeries, but look very official and appear to originate from inside the Coalition States. The documents would dub these automatons, "Glitterboy Assassins or the CB-GBA-01."

Naturally the CS would deny these claims. Naturally everyone would assume that the CS are lying about that denial. Humans have a funny way with bias after all and the fact that Free Quebec will not be able to find any more proof even through their spies. They only have this very vague information, coupled with a number of ambushes by units that match these designs, will absolutely convince Free Quebec that the Coalition States are indeed up to something.

This would likely raise tensions between the CS and FQ, and A.R.C.H.I.E. Three would know that all that would be needed would be one more tiny push. That push would come when a CS research and weapons testing facility is attacked by a large force of FQ Glitterboys. These, of course, are just facsimiles created by A.R.C.H.I.E. Three to look like Free Quebec forces. They attack the facility and raze it to the ground. Conveniently this also happens to be the facility that the forged documents claimed created the CB-GBA-01.

Naturally the CS would blame FQ for the attack. They would accuse FQ of falling victim to forged documents while FQ would accuse the CS of destroying their own facility to cover up what they were doing and trying to blame them. In response to this the CS would make a counter-accusation that FQ made up the documents and the attacks in order to justify hostility against the CS. This would create even more mounting tension between the two allies.

The final nail in that coffin, however, wouldn't come from A.R.C.H.I.E. Three. No the part of the Machine Entity has been played. Hagan and A.R.C.H.I.E. Three need only sit back and watch at this point.

The CS, seeing how effective the CB-GBA-01 was against the FQ Glitterboys and, like FQ, having access to the schematics and designs of them would put them into production, "Just in case."

That would be all that would be needed, eventually it would come out that the CS was making CB-GBA-01's and Free Quebec would spring into action. Accusations would start flying and a lot of the good will between the two groups would evaporate overnight. The first shot to begin the actual fighting, of course, would be by the hand of A.R.C.H.I.E. Three when a large number of CB-GBA-01's would attack, openly, a Free Quebec outpost. Their goal would be to annihilate the outpost and everyone in it. The wreckage would show the presence of CB-GBA-01's and Free Quebec would spring into action.

All out war would erupt between Free Quebec and the Coalition States within a year. The problem is the CS hasn't yet recovered from the war with Tolkeen yet and they absolutely aren't ready for a military campaign against Free Quebec. For the first time in a long time the CS is simply over matched in firepower. This forces the CS to abandon at least 2 of their cities which are then claimed by Free Quebec which allows Free Quebec to expand further South than they have before. The CS is forced to sue for a cease fire, and surrenders, at least one of, the cities that Free Quebec captured.

For the first time, in known history, the CS was forced to effectively surrender and it makes the CS citizens nervous and the enemies of the CS salivate. The beast has been injured and they are all wondering if now is the time to strike.

[HWalsh]

The mistake was advancing the time line in the first place.

If you ignore the time line advancement and just take what ideas you like out of each book, then the CS has whatever advancements and victories/losses that you decide they have.

--flatline

I like the advancing metaplot. I am a lore junkie. It makes the world, to me, seem more real.

[ShadowLogan]

The CS is really the only 400lbs gorilla in the room of NA operating out in the open. For them to screw up would require that they pick a fight with the Xiticix Bugs.

The Demon/Devil war might take them down a notch in NA to, but of the players out in the open currently. It doesn't look to likely unless the CS over commits itself and gets dragged into a multiple wars simultaneously (which seems unlikely).

Shadow Players like the FoM, Archie-3 (who is said to be able to do it), Republicans (who are supposed to becoming into the light in "Haunted Tech") are possible.

Now there are people that can take the CS down a peg or two easily:
-Naruni (some do want revenge on the CS)
-Splurgoth (though the CS would have to crazy to attack them)

[glitterboy2098]

they can't really afford to lose the minion war stuff.. but i do hope that it is a somewhat Pyrrhic victory for them. that they lose a lot of troops in the process, that their own territory gets seriously threatened and attacked before they achieve a victory. etc.

make them really work for it, the victory coming as much of a surprise to the CS as it is to the rest of the world. have them get knocked back in size and power to where they were before they built up for the SoT.. although with the better tech so they are still a threat to the other groups of NA.

it would also be nice to see the CS/Demon conflict, after the initial conflict is over, becoming a long-running thing. that having beaten them back, the CS becomes the target of harrassment attacks by demons and those working for them. enough so that the CS constantly has to worry about it, devote more of it's military to defense of it's own territory, be less aggressive.

[Alrik Vas]

The CS loses most skirmishes in Rifts unless the fight is against a small village of peace loving d-bees. It seems their meta-plot powers only apply in the large scale conflict arena where the majority of PCs won't be able to face them on equal footing.

Funny how that all fits.

[flatline]

If you're going to advance the time line, the obvious way for the CS to lose is for one or more of the fortress cities to stop following orders from Chi Town. Even better, Chi Town might overreact to perceived disloyalty of another fortress city and the remaining fortress cities might decide that Chi Town went too far.

If the CS becomes divided, then instead of an 800lb gorilla, they might become a handful of 200lb gorillas that spend as much of their energy against each other as they do the surrounding world.

In my own setting, I've gone much further than that. Each fortress city is its own city-state, much like Machiavelian Italy. This is more interesting to me and, coincidentally, more in line with the typical high-tech post-apoc anime settings I watched as a kid.

[HWalsh]

I was once in a game where we destroyed Chi-Town and killed Prosek and his kid in one shot when we managed to seize a Macross Cannon that Rifted in.

Though this wouldn't be a possible thing in Rifts.

[Tiree]

I think the next big one, would be to have Prosek die. But in doing so it would also crush the heroes of light, such as Erin Tarn and Loard Coake.

[Killer Cyborg]

Was The Empire a Mary Sue in Star Wars...?

[Blue_Lion]

I was once in a game where we destroyed Chi-Town and killed Prosek and his kid in one shot when we managed to seize a Macross Cannon that Rifted in.

Though this wouldn't be a possible thing in Rifts.

I once played a game where my TW found the old Hasbro action figure factory and converted it to make TW GI JOE action golems. 6 inch action figures with super natural PS and MDC and flight by their jet packs with Mini MD guns 1d4 do to the location of a ley line for power found a way to get it up at full production. Was able to make over 50 million and sent them to attack chi-town. That was a crippling blow to the CS according to the GM.

The snuck up and drag down CS patrols in even medium length grass, then snuck through the burbs and flew up forcing there way in through the venation ducts. Once inside they lacked the ability to tell threats from non-threats and started killing every one. Once my TW relized his mistake he destroyed the factory spent years trying to atone for his crime.

Think of it as a TW small soldiers spin off without the EM.

But that will never be part of any official metta plot.

[Morik]

They lost a lot of troops in the Tolkeen war. They are not prepared for the minion war and it will cut deep as well.

This will set them up for hard time. You could have any threat at that point strike at them. They are losing the continent by attrition.

I will probably have the Soul Harvesters and the FOM join forces and attack CS Missouri. Atlantis will help with supplies and the CS will not be getting the territory back any time soon.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

They lost a lot of troops in the Tolkeen war. They are not prepared for the minion war and it will cut deep as well.

This will set them up for hard time. You could have any threat at that point strike at them. They are losing the continent by attrition.

There is quite literally nothing in the canon to support that. In fact, most of the troops they lost were Burb-recruits, and there are hundreds of people lining up to replace every person that was killed at the mere prospect of earning citizenship for their families.

The way the CS is built in canon right now, they are the absolute superpower of North America, with millions of troops under arms, the highest tech level by far (save perhaps FQ's Glitter Boy technology, not that the CS really needs it), and inexhaustable resources.

In fact, they have been built up so much that the setting doesn't even make sense as it sits. Given how rabidly anti-magic they are, Kingsdale, Arzno, and the Colorado Baronies should all be glowing craters devoid of life. Until the Minion War started, the CS should have been gearing up to move on Lazlo and wiping them off the map as well. They literally have more men under arms (not even counting mercs and skelebots) than Lazlo has people.

Rifts is a mess in every coneivable way right now. The rules are all but unplayable, and the setting doesn't even make sense on its face.

Now, i agree, it's time for the CS to come down a few notches. SOMETHING has to be done to explain why they haven't just wiped the continent clean. The Minion War is a great opportunity, but given the title of the upcoming book ("The Coalition: Heroes of Humanity" or some such drek) i seriously doubt Kev's going to give up that hard-on for the CS being the winners. (And honestly, there was a thread a few months back where we broke down why Hades and Dyvaal arent really even a threat, so, stats-as-written, it doesn't make sense for the CS to lose anyway).

Im all for advancing meta-plots (not everyone is an amazing writer and advancing stories give average-man GMs good story ideas) but they need to be handled a lot more gingerly than Kev does and with an eye towards maximum playability and use to the players, not railroading a story in a particular direction.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Was The Empire a Mary Sue in Star Wars...?

Uh.. "Mary Sue", no, but winning by plot-fiat? Definitely. The Empire became a thing because Lucas said so. The in-story events that predicated it were weak at best and not terribly wellg rounded even in the setting he presented.

If you want to add the Expanded Failverse to it, well, that's a discussion for another time.

[Alrik Vas]

The CS has a large territory, but even still too many soldiers for the amount of thumb sitting they do.

I agree that with their forces they could be further along than they are, and the north American politiscape should look pretty different than it does.

I don't think they're a Mary Sue though. They might win major conflicts, but I wouldn't say they do everything right, or even all that well.

Let me tell ya, I'd love to see the brutal combat between the tolkeen garrison and the demon horde from the winter solstice rift played out with the rules though. Talk about poor tactics. The CS is terribad the way they're written.

[ShadowLogan]

If you're going to advance the time line, the obvious way for the CS to lose is for one or more of the fortress cities to stop following orders from Chi Town. Even better, Chi Town might overreact to perceived disloyalty of another fortress city and the remaining fortress cities might decide that Chi Town went too far.

If the CS becomes divided, then instead of an 800lb gorilla, they might become a handful of 200lb gorillas that spend as much of their energy against each other as they do the surrounding world.

In my own setting, I've gone much further than that. Each fortress city is its own city-state, much like Machiavelian Italy. This is more interesting to me and, coincidentally, more in line with the typical high-tech post-apoc anime settings I watched as a kid.

But how would that happen in the CS, as aside from FQ IIRC the various states are basically puppets or extensions of Chi-Town.

[kaid]

It depends how things unfold in the minion wars but overall there really other than something crazy like that not that much of a threat of any of the local NA powers.

Lazlo suffers the same critical flaw tolkeen did. Its one compact target. They have no defensive depth if the CS was willing to spend the money/effort to take it the results would likely be the same as tolkeen. Given the lore advice lazlo gave to tolkeen was to flee I would expect that to be the most likely response of lazlo opening up portals elsewhere and fleeing.

Republicans could be a danger via assassination but even if they woke up the sleepers archie is maintaining that is still a pretty limited amount of man power. I think it was around 11k people if I recall correctly. Even if all of those were in glitter boys and had no logistical support/other units you are still talking a force of around free quebec power at best and likely a lot less simply due to lack of man power. They could cause some other force to be a major threat but by themselves they simply lack the man power to barge in and take over. And unlike most of the other NA powers the CS is not just one big city in a small compact area. It has a number of fortress cities over a pretty spread out area. Go all in on chi town and you likely wind up getting flanked from all directions. The CS military is lore wise enormous and even their second line defense units in cities are gigantic in number.

The major threats to the CS would be atlantis/the minion war/xiticix. There is a good chance that the latter two may to some extent mitigate the other. It sounds like some demon or devils are going to attempt to take over the xiticix and that probably is really not going to end well for them. Likely outcome is both sides duking it out lowing both of their numbers substantially. Once the demons/devils kick that bee hive they may wind up not having a choice but to go all in on an assault vs the xiticix which would be an enormous distraction at best and a horrible failure for those factions for their war efforts.

[kaid]

They lost a lot of troops in the Tolkeen war. They are not prepared for the minion war and it will cut deep as well.

This will set them up for hard time. You could have any threat at that point strike at them. They are losing the continent by attrition.

There is quite literally nothing in the canon to support that. In fact, most of the troops they lost were Burb-recruits, and there are hundreds of people lining up to replace every person that was killed at the mere prospect of earning citizenship for their families.

The way the CS is built in canon right now, they are the absolute superpower of North America, with millions of troops under arms, the highest tech level by far (save perhaps FQ's Glitter Boy technology, not that the CS really needs it), and inexhaustable resources.

In fact, they have been built up so much that the setting doesn't even make sense as it sits. Given how rabidly anti-magic they are, Kingsdale, Arzno, and the Colorado Baronies should all be glowing craters devoid of life. Until the Minion War started, the CS should have been gearing up to move on Lazlo and wiping them off the map as well. They literally have more men under arms (not even counting mercs and skelebots) than Lazlo has people.

Rifts is a mess in every coneivable way right now. The rules are all but unplayable, and the setting doesn't even make sense on its face.

Now, i agree, it's time for the CS to come down a few notches. SOMETHING has to be done to explain why they haven't just wiped the continent clean. The Minion War is a great opportunity, but given the title of the upcoming book ("The Coalition: Heroes of Humanity" or some such drek) i seriously doubt Kev's going to give up that hard-on for the CS being the winners. (And honestly, there was a thread a few months back where we broke down why Hades and Dyvaal arent really even a threat, so, stats-as-written, it doesn't make sense for the CS to lose anyway).

Im all for advancing meta-plots (not everyone is an amazing writer and advancing stories give average-man GMs good story ideas) but they need to be handled a lot more gingerly than Kev does and with an eye towards maximum playability and use to the players, not railroading a story in a particular direction.

One of the interesting points about the CS over the years is given how belligerent their talking points are overall they are very slow with any sorts of expansions unless like in lone star they found something truly unique they felt they had to try to lock down but even then a lot of the CS state of lone star is in name only. It is mostly just the bases setup to protect the lone star facility and some of the surrounding area have any sorts of heavy CS activity. Most of the rest of the area gets sweeps and patrols but not really much in the way of actual settlements. This goes with some of their other midwest states they on a map claim a fair amount of land but in actuality their expansions have been very slow and methodical. The tolkeen strike was really the first major muscle flexing they have done in a VERY long time and arguably it was an almost ideal target for them. A single major city and some small sub cities in a tiny geographic area right in their backyard a few hundred miles from their borders. Even then the fight took a lot longer and was a lot harder than it had any real right to be but the outcome was never in any doubt.

Once tolkeen fell without any of the major magical city states intervening on their behalf not even the federation of magic there is no reason to expect if they chose to attack another major magic city state that anybody would lift a finger. Places like new lazlo have to be pooping bricks because they are not that much farther from CS territory than tolkeen was and are even smaller and less powerful while being very strident and vocally against the CS.

Ironically enough what protects lazlo is likely free quebec. After the abortive war vs free quebec the CS would have to be very careful trying to engage in large scale military engagements in their back yard for fear of free quebec intervening vs any forces moving to close to their sphere of influence. They would not be actively helping lazlo but the effect would work in that way.

[HWalsh]

Republicans could be a danger via assassination but even if they woke up the sleepers archie is maintaining that is still a pretty limited amount of man power. I think it was around 11k people if I recall correctly. Even if all of those were in glitter boys and had no logistical support/other units you are still talking a force of around free quebec power at best and likely a lot less simply due to lack of man power.

It's 30,000 troops, the Republicans themselves have around 11,000 - Their plan called for a 6 month build up to recruit 15,000 more.

So 56,000 troops armed with the best military tech in North America, fresh Glitterboys, more advanced SAMAS armor and an extensive spy and espionage network. Coming out of nowhere? Yes, they could cause some serious damage to the CS if they tried.

They could cause some other force to be a major threat but by themselves they simply lack the man power to barge in and take over. And unlike most of the other NA powers the CS is not just one big city in a small compact area. It has a number of fortress cities over a pretty spread out area. Go all in on chi town and you likely wind up getting flanked from all directions. The CS military is lore wise enormous and even their second line defense units in cities are gigantic in number.

The major threats to the CS would be atlantis/the minion war/xiticix. There is a good chance that the latter two may to some extent mitigate the other. It sounds like some demon or devils are going to attempt to take over the xiticix and that probably is really not going to end well for them. Likely outcome is both sides duking it out lowing both of their numbers substantially. Once the demons/devils kick that bee hive they may wind up not having a choice but to go all in on an assault vs the xiticix which would be an enormous distraction at best and a horrible failure for those factions for their war efforts.

I think it's been established that the Minion War isn't much of a threat.

[HWalsh]

It depends how things unfold in the minion wars but overall there really other than something crazy like that not that much of a threat of any of the local NA powers.

Lazlo suffers the same critical flaw tolkeen did. Its one compact target. They have no defensive depth if the CS was willing to spend the money/effort to take it the results would likely be the same as tolkeen. Given the lore advice lazlo gave to tolkeen was to flee I would expect that to be the most likely response of lazlo opening up portals elsewhere and fleeing.

Republicans could be a danger via assassination but even if they woke up the sleepers archie is maintaining that is still a pretty limited amount of man power. I think it was around 11k people if I recall correctly. Even if all of those were in glitter boys and had no logistical support/other units you are still talking a force of around free quebec power at best and likely a lot less simply due to lack of man power. They could cause some other force to be a major threat but by themselves they simply lack the man power to barge in and take over. And unlike most of the other NA powers the CS is not just one big city in a small compact area. It has a number of fortress cities over a pretty spread out area. Go all in on chi town and you likely wind up getting flanked from all directions. The CS military is lore wise enormous and even their second line defense units in cities are gigantic in number.

The major threats to the CS would be atlantis/the minion war/xiticix. There is a good chance that the latter two may to some extent mitigate the other. It sounds like some demon or devils are going to attempt to take over the xiticix and that probably is really not going to end well for them. Likely outcome is both sides duking it out lowing both of their numbers substantially. Once the demons/devils kick that bee hive they may wind up not having a choice but to go all in on an assault vs the xiticix which would be an enormous distraction at best and a horrible failure for those factions for their war efforts.

I still feel that Kevin S. made a mistake not having Laszlo join up in the war and not having the CS actually lose.

It just makes no sense to me. It is the kind of build up, narratively, of:

"The CS is super powerful! The can stomp anyone! Tolkeen pulls out all the stops, mounts an amazing defense, tactically is brilliant, does everything right (from a purely tactical standpoint) and... The CS makes monumentally stupid tactical mistakes, the CS uses tactics that are nothing but the height of stupidity, and still wins due to plot hand waving."

I mean just from a real world standpoint Lazlo was dumb not to get involved during SoT Book 5. Tolkeen's forces were depleted, the CS was the weakest they had ever been, while the CS and Tolkeen were both chomping at the bit for war at least Tolkeen could be reasoned with.

Even the Federation of Magic might have jumped in at that point.

That whole series really should have ended with the CS military crushed and have the CS being gripped by panic and fear. Making them become even more violent and Xenophobic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well part of the problem is that people..... well Lie is a strong word.. Misrepresent the CS at every turn. Even you've done it.

As it stands now the Coalition is kind of, okay let us be honest, they are very much a Mary Sue. They always win, they always have the strangest coincidences happen in their favor (Somehow all of these troops managed to make it through the heart of Xiticis territory without losing almost anyone at just the right moment to stomp Tolkeen into the dirt)

This didn't happen.

Holmes lost 1 in 4 men in that gable. Which is even more than 'decimation'. Decimation is losing 1 in ten. Holmes lost 25% of his forces and almost broke resolve with his stratigy before it worked. But people act like he waltzed through with out any problems what so ever. 100,000 men is nothing to sneeze at. That's A HUGE Loss.

As for 'strangest coincidences' it happens on both sides. The war 'should' have lasted about 5 minutes. The time for the missiles to fly and blow tolkeen off the face of the earth but suddenly tolkeen had a 'Hand of god' Defense that just shunted the nukes to another planet. A defense not known anywhere else in the megaverse. So... it's not like coincidences don't happen on each side.

they always come out on top and anyone who disagrees with them is proven to be wrong. (Free Quebec at the last minute anyone?)

Well 2 things here.

1) The CS going to war with FQ would be like.. the US going to war with... *Waves hand* New York state. Yeah it's not a small number of people but he outcome isn't really remotely in doubt, and even then the CS didn't really go "All in" against FQ

and

2) FQ came to the CS Aid at the last minute.. and afterwords the CS Emp, did a full 180, and embraced FQ as brothers, broke off all military operations against them and pledged aid, and HE TOOK THE BLAME, publicly. Saying it was his mistake.... So.. again not as you're making out.

So... It seems, in the Metaplot, it is time for the CS to make a mistake.

They make many mistakes, if you actually get all the Siege on tolkeen books, they get hit just as hard if not harder than Tolkeen. Granted the books are written to "Sell books' not really realisticly show how the war would have gone, but the CS got punched at least twice hard in that 4 or 5 punch exchange.

A bad one. It is time for the bad guys to finally lose something significantly enough that they actually legitimately appear to be (and are) vulnerable.

here the problem is compounded by the fact that you just lable them as 'bad guys' and call it done. In the Rifts world the CS Are only 'bad' if you're a combative alien on earth. To humans they're heroes and one of the last bastions of humanity on the planet.

Now, this doesn't mean they should be wiped out or weakened to the point of being a paper tiger, it just means that they need to realize that they have a serious problem and that they need to be more careful when and how they pick their battles.

They already know that. That's WHY they're militaristic and such already. Aliens and demons and god knows what have taken over the majorty of the planet. Humanity's almost an endangered species. They fight for all they're worth to maintain humanity's grip on their homeworld from countless alien invaders.

So, if you were writing the metaplot, what would you have their mistake be?

(I'll toss mine in as a reply to this main master post)

I like the CS being present. They're a good foil if you want one, and a bastion of humanity if you want to use them as that.

What the CS __NEEDS__ is someone at palladium listening to (Some anyway) Of the fans, and taking a few pages to EXPLAIN TO THE PLAYERS, how the CS maintains it's army of 4-7 million troops, and what not considering it's overall population numbers. For that matter, they need to give firm(er) population numbers for each state, in accordance to that.

We need a "Coalition States" Book (or series) Not on just the military (We've got and are gettign 2 more of those) We need information on... the STATES... the PEOPLE. Their lives in the states, the mega cities, how they differ, their manufactuing base, etc.

Granted it's a fictional country, but still there's alot of questions and it's 25+ years in. Time to sit down and think about this crap for 10 minutes and work it out so people don't ***** about it for another 25 years.

[Pepsi Jedi]

They lost a lot of troops in the Tolkeen war. They are not prepared for the minion war and it will cut deep as well.

This will set them up for hard time. You could have any threat at that point strike at them. They are losing the continent by attrition.

I will probably have the Soul Harvesters and the FOM join forces and attack CS Missouri. Atlantis will help with supplies and the CS will not be getting the territory back any time soon.

They're just fine in prep for the Minion war.

Yes they lost alot of troops in tolkeen, but they had recruited alot of troops too, so by the end of the war they 'broke even'

In truth they came out better though, at the end of the war, those that DID Survive, basicly had "Gained about 5 or 6 lvls"

So the CS's troops post Tolkeen war were tested vetrans, not rookies fresh out of boot.

When the minion war starts up, the CS sees a surge in volenteers.. to the tune of 1-3 million in a few weeks? (It's been a while since I've read the passage)

That's in addition to their 4+ Million troops/dog boys they have NOW.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Republicans could be a danger via assassination but even if they woke up the sleepers archie is maintaining that is still a pretty limited amount of man power. I think it was around 11k people if I recall correctly. Even if all of those were in glitter boys and had no logistical support/other units you are still talking a force of around free quebec power at best and likely a lot less simply due to lack of man power.

It's 30,000 troops, the Republicans themselves have around 11,000 - Their plan called for a 6 month build up to recruit 15,000 more.

So 56,000 troops armed with the best military tech in North America, fresh Glitterboys, more advanced SAMAS armor and an extensive spy and espionage network. Coming out of nowhere? Yes, they could cause some serious damage to the CS if they tried.

Not really. Even if you multiplied that number by ten, they still couldn't do much damage. 56,000 troops against the CS's 4+ million prior to the minion war. It's just a drop in the bucket. Even if you, like I said, multiplied it by ten, they'd still get face rolled by the CS.

[HWalsh]

here the problem is compounded by the fact that you just lable them as 'bad guys' and call it done. In the Rifts world the CS Are only 'bad' if you're a combative alien on earth. To humans they're heroes and one of the last bastions of humanity on the planet.

Of if you are a human who practices magic, or techno wizardry, or learned to read without their permission, or don't like their system of government and publicly call them out on it, or if you purchase gear from a retailer they don't like, or if you are a DeeBee regardless of if you were born on Earth because your ancestors were sucked through a rift and you are "flesh and blood" as far as SDC with no special capabilities, or are a completely human historian who writes books detailing the truth about events going on in the world...

If you aren't one of those things and "human" then they are a hero.

So, to, I dunno... 30% of humans, in North America, they are Heroes... Maybe.

I mean, let's be honest here the CS is a representation of a certain reviled faction from human history that once participated in a genocide attempt during a period of time between 1935 and 1945. They are the bad guys. If Captain America rifted to Rifts Earth he'd be trying to punch Emperor Prosek in the jaw while the Red Skull would be all like, "I like zee vay zat zis man thinks!"

[Pepsi Jedi]

It depends how things unfold in the minion wars but overall there really other than something crazy like that not that much of a threat of any of the local NA powers.

Lazlo suffers the same critical flaw tolkeen did. Its one compact target. They have no defensive depth if the CS was willing to spend the money/effort to take it the results would likely be the same as tolkeen. Given the lore advice lazlo gave to tolkeen was to flee I would expect that to be the most likely response of lazlo opening up portals elsewhere and fleeing.

Republicans could be a danger via assassination but even if they woke up the sleepers archie is maintaining that is still a pretty limited amount of man power. I think it was around 11k people if I recall correctly. Even if all of those were in glitter boys and had no logistical support/other units you are still talking a force of around free quebec power at best and likely a lot less simply due to lack of man power. They could cause some other force to be a major threat but by themselves they simply lack the man power to barge in and take over. And unlike most of the other NA powers the CS is not just one big city in a small compact area. It has a number of fortress cities over a pretty spread out area. Go all in on chi town and you likely wind up getting flanked from all directions. The CS military is lore wise enormous and even their second line defense units in cities are gigantic in number.

The major threats to the CS would be atlantis/the minion war/xiticix. There is a good chance that the latter two may to some extent mitigate the other. It sounds like some demon or devils are going to attempt to take over the xiticix and that probably is really not going to end well for them. Likely outcome is both sides duking it out lowing both of their numbers substantially. Once the demons/devils kick that bee hive they may wind up not having a choice but to go all in on an assault vs the xiticix which would be an enormous distraction at best and a horrible failure for those factions for their war efforts.

I still feel that Kevin S. made a mistake not having Laszlo join up in the war and not having the CS actually lose.

It just makes no sense to me. It is the kind of build up, narratively, of:

Then you didn't read the build up or any of the 'fluff' for the series. I'm sorry but it was very very clearly laid out why Lazlo didn't join up.

It went like this.

Tolkeen: "Hey, come join us! We're going to kick the spit out of the CS!"
Lazlo: "Um.. dude what? Are you high?
T: "No no really! Come join us! We're going to BEAT THE CS!"
L: "Dude, seriously, put down the pipe"
T: "WE HAVE MAGIC!!"
L: "Yeah so do we, dude, don't mess with the CS"
T: "MAGIC IS AWESOMESAUCE BRO! WE CAN'T LOSE!"
L: "You're going to lose"
T: "How could we lose??"
L: "They have literally millions of troops millions of dog boys, robots, power armor, skelebots and nukes. How could you win?
T: "We got the nukes covered"
L: "Ok well that's good but did you hear the rest?"
T: "Pffft we'll kick their butts!
L: "MILLIONS of Troops man. MILLIONS. Can you count to a million?
T: "It's just more zeroes, we're heroes yo!
L: "No really you're going to lose"
T: "Team up with us then! We'll win"
(and the very important part, SAID BY LAZLO DIRECTLY)
L: "No.. you won't. Even if ALL THE MAGIC KINGDOMS TEAMED UP AND ATTACKED AT ONCE, WE WOULD STILL LOSE. We'd hurt the CS more, but we'd STILL LOSE"
T: "Well F you brother! F you straight to hell!! We'll do it with out you! Whimps!"
L: "Please don't. Please. Run. Hide. Survive. Move your city with magic or some crap. Hide it from the CS, dont' fight them. You're going to die!"
T: "You'll see!! You'll rue the day!!!
L: *Sigh*
War.
Tolkeen loses as everyone in the Palladium universe told them they would
T: "Um we lost"
L: "We know"
T: "Can you take in all these refugees??"
L: *Sigh*


"The CS is super powerful! The can stomp anyone! [/quote]

Not 'anyone' but a state, one ... 50th their size? Sure. That the war lasted as long as it did, was to sell books.

Tolkeen pulls out all the stops, mounts an amazing defense,

Not really. They did pull out alot of stops but their defnse seemed to consist of 'Hit them with crap they've never seen before" (Not a bad idea but didn't work) and "Let a LITERAL ARMY OF DEMONS out to fight for them.

tactically is brilliant,

Not even remotely close. Tactically brilliant isn't 'let out an army of demons so crappy that OTHER demons locked them up.

does everything right (from a purely tactical standpoint)

Again. Not at all. Not even close.

and... The CS makes monumentally stupid tactical mistakes,

This indeed is true. Monumental stupid mistakes were on both sides. TO SELL MORE BOOKS IN THE SERIES.

the CS uses tactics that are nothing but the height of stupidity, and still wins due to plot hand waving."

Not at all. Everyone on earth knew Tolkeen would lose. Everyone TOLD tolkeen it'd lose. Tolkeen chose a losing fight instead of getting out of the way. They had literal years to do so. Instead they stood there like a big dawg and got punched. They thought they were better than they were and thought they could take on a technological army with literal millions of troops. That's pretty dumb.

I mean just from a real world standpoint Lazlo was dumb not to get involved during SoT Book 5

lazlo told tolkeen they were going to lose before the first shot was fired and begged them not to do it.

Lazlo was right.

Why was Lazlo 'dumb'? Seems tolkeen got destroyed. Not Lazlo.....

Tolkeen's forces were depleted, the CS was the weakest they had ever been, while the CS and Tolkeen were both chomping at the bit for war at least Tolkeen could be reasoned with.

Again, not true. yes the CS was a touch weakened but was STILL strong enough to destroy tolkeen AND Lazlo. Lazlo knew it. how do we know they knew it? They straight up told Tolkeen "Even if we all team up, the CS will still win. We'd all die, and the CS would still be around. Just alot of dead people"

Nor could tolkeen be reasoned with. by that point Tolkeen had gone full darkside evil. They chose to go evil PURPOSEFULLY to win a fight, and still lost.

Even the Federation of Magic might have jumped in at that point.

Seriously, you should read the books. It explains why the Fed didn't get into it as well. Not the least of which, they hate tolkeen and wanted to see them die.

That whole series really should have ended with the CS military crushed and have the CS being gripped by panic and fear. Making them become even more violent and Xenophobic.

No. the entire series "SHOULD" have been a paragraph or two, then tolkeen be a glowing crater from the nuke. If that didn't work. the CS could outfit a special forces group to LOOK like mercs, put the nuke inside a gutted APC and drive it into tolkeen pretending to be mercs.. then blow it up.... but there was alot of stupid stuff on both sides so that the series was more than just a few paragraphs.

In no way shape or form was tolkeen ever said to be stronger than the CS or able to mop the floor with them. They did far far better than they should have. If for nothing else. Most spells have the range of 50-100 feet and laser rifles have range of 1000-2000 ft. lol

[Pepsi Jedi]

here the problem is compounded by the fact that you just lable them as 'bad guys' and call it done. In the Rifts world the CS Are only 'bad' if you're a combative alien on earth. To humans they're heroes and one of the last bastions of humanity on the planet.

Of if you are a human who practices magic, or techno wizardry,

Yes, those things are seen as dangerous and are outlawed in their country.

Australia has outlawed guns. Few people call Aussies evil for that. You can live there, just can't own a gun. Same for the CS and magic. You're welcome to live there (if youre human) Just can't do magic.

or learned to read without their permission,

I agree the reading thing is stupid. Not thought out and blatenty unsustainable in reality. But as 'evil' not on the surface. Epicly stupid? yes. Evil? no.

or don't like their system of government and publicly call them out on it,

No country likes such things.

or if you purchase gear from a retailer they don't like

Lets be specific. Wilks gear is outlawed, the --military grade megadamage weaponry--. Yes. The US seldom lets people buy tanks with working cannons and F16 strike eagles with full loadouts either.

As for the Naurni, "Alien arms dealers selling military grade mega damage weaponry" Yeah.. they're not liked. I can see why.

or if you are a DeeBee

Dbee's aren't humans. No nation on earth welcomes aliens today. It's not like it's out of line.

regardless of if you were born on Earth because your ancestors were sucked through a rift and you are "flesh and blood" as far as SDC with no special capabilities,

They're still aliens on earth, and descendants of alien invaders. That they happen to be born here just compounds the problem. They're illegal aliens (Literally) From other planets or dimensions here on earth displacing the native human population.

or are a completely human historian who writes books detailing the truth about events going on in the world.

Few countries allow political dissidants to go unchecked. Some do, but most don't. I'd say the majority of countries now, would have a problem with someone like Erin. Can you imagine her in the Middle east? she'd be stoned or set on fire in about 10 minutes. Now.. i'm not saying we should be like the middle east, but I'm pointing out it's not exactly a strange concept.

If you aren't one of those things and "human" then they are a hero.

Well alot of the things you named wern't human. lol

Of those that were, many of them make sense to have problems with.

So, to, I dunno... 30% of humans, in North America, they are Heroes... Maybe.

Again, a glaring misrepresentation. (Untruth.. .lie?)

the vast vast vast majority of ___HUMANS___ In north america are in the CS.

If you add up all the other populations of humans in NA and combine them all together, they don't come close to equaling the numbers of the CS. Not even close. The CS Has millions and millions of people.

The other places have.. a few hundred here.. a few thousand there.. maybe 10 or 20,000 for the big ones. No where NEAR the population that the CS has.

I mean, let's be honest here the CS is a representation of a certain reviled faction from human history that once participated in a genocide attempt during a period of time between 1935 and 1945.

No. that's what some people that don't like them, like to lump them as.

They have SOME of the characteristics of that group, but by and large are not. Other than the black uniforms and an unrelenting attitude towards those not of their approved chosen type, the CS is pretty different.

They are the bad guys. If Captain America rifted to Rifts Earth he'd be trying to punch Emperor Prosek in the jaw while the Red Skull would be all like, "I like zee vay zat zis man thinks!"

Kinda ironic you said that....

Captain America has always been a Hydra spy, from the very very start......

[kaid]

Republicans could be a danger via assassination but even if they woke up the sleepers archie is maintaining that is still a pretty limited amount of man power. I think it was around 11k people if I recall correctly. Even if all of those were in glitter boys and had no logistical support/other units you are still talking a force of around free quebec power at best and likely a lot less simply due to lack of man power.

It's 30,000 troops, the Republicans themselves have around 11,000 - Their plan called for a 6 month build up to recruit 15,000 more.

So 56,000 troops armed with the best military tech in North America, fresh Glitterboys, more advanced SAMAS armor and an extensive spy and espionage network. Coming out of nowhere? Yes, they could cause some serious damage to the CS if they tried.

They could cause some other force to be a major threat but by themselves they simply lack the man power to barge in and take over. And unlike most of the other NA powers the CS is not just one big city in a small compact area. It has a number of fortress cities over a pretty spread out area. Go all in on chi town and you likely wind up getting flanked from all directions. The CS military is lore wise enormous and even their second line defense units in cities are gigantic in number.

The major threats to the CS would be atlantis/the minion war/xiticix. There is a good chance that the latter two may to some extent mitigate the other. It sounds like some demon or devils are going to attempt to take over the xiticix and that probably is really not going to end well for them. Likely outcome is both sides duking it out lowing both of their numbers substantially. Once the demons/devils kick that bee hive they may wind up not having a choice but to go all in on an assault vs the xiticix which would be an enormous distraction at best and a horrible failure for those factions for their war efforts.

I think it's been established that the Minion War isn't much of a threat.

Baring new stuff showing up in haunted tech. The technology the republicans bring for their main combat equipment is nothing the CS has not encountered. The glitter boys the republicans have are effectively the same as the bulk of free quebec has powerful but a known quantity. The advanced samas are basically the same as the bandito arms variants with a bit more armor and laser reflective chrome. The newest CS models are either comparable to or much better than what we have seen.

The only real edge from what we have seen that the republicans have is their hand weapons are a bit harder hitting/lighter and their personal body armor is more durable. But that is a meager advantage to say the least if you are dealing with how good your infantry grunts are that is a losing fight of even with the enhanced recruits of 30k people vs a military in the millions of near equal armor/armament.

We have seen the nema tech in chaos earth a lot of it while highly advanced was basically the first model MDC capable equipment and it was designed for a threat environment where most people did not even have MDC at all. Some of their stuff like their bots have really low MDC and their weapons while more advanced are not signficantly better than the PA designs. Designs with centuries of combat experience on what works and what does not in the actual threat environment that currently exists.

Republicans would be more of a moral threat to the CS than a physical one. There simply are not enough of them even if they recruit heavily to ever that much of a direct threat. They would also have to worry short of taking archie out completly they will likely be under sever attack if they somehow wake the sleepers without archie helping them.

[HWalsh]

Kinda ironic you said that....

Captain America has always been a Hydra spy, from the very very start......

Not going to derail, but I'm willing to bet that he wasn't. I'm further going to bet that it was something that happened when something that seemed to be controlled by a Hydra master who had a power comparable to a cosmic cube restored him. Remember, Cosmic Cubes can do weird things. I'm also willing to bet, since, you know he's the star of that book that it will all be resolved within the next 4-6 months and we will learn it was either some external force, a clone, or some kind of trick.

As to them not being that...

Oh please... Seriously, I'm pretty sure one of the books even said straight out that Prosek was inspired by them. Not only that, but they had straight up concentration/death camps during SoT. Like, they had a North American version of Aushwitz. Prosek, in the artwork, is literally shown wearing a uniform styled after them. They perform experiments on (if not exterminate) captives. This includes, and is not limited to, surgical experimentation.

The CS are Rifts Nazis.

[kaid]

It depends how things unfold in the minion wars but overall there really other than something crazy like that not that much of a threat of any of the local NA powers.

Lazlo suffers the same critical flaw tolkeen did. Its one compact target. They have no defensive depth if the CS was willing to spend the money/effort to take it the results would likely be the same as tolkeen. Given the lore advice lazlo gave to tolkeen was to flee I would expect that to be the most likely response of lazlo opening up portals elsewhere and fleeing.

Republicans could be a danger via assassination but even if they woke up the sleepers archie is maintaining that is still a pretty limited amount of man power. I think it was around 11k people if I recall correctly. Even if all of those were in glitter boys and had no logistical support/other units you are still talking a force of around free quebec power at best and likely a lot less simply due to lack of man power. They could cause some other force to be a major threat but by themselves they simply lack the man power to barge in and take over. And unlike most of the other NA powers the CS is not just one big city in a small compact area. It has a number of fortress cities over a pretty spread out area. Go all in on chi town and you likely wind up getting flanked from all directions. The CS military is lore wise enormous and even their second line defense units in cities are gigantic in number.

The major threats to the CS would be atlantis/the minion war/xiticix. There is a good chance that the latter two may to some extent mitigate the other. It sounds like some demon or devils are going to attempt to take over the xiticix and that probably is really not going to end well for them. Likely outcome is both sides duking it out lowing both of their numbers substantially. Once the demons/devils kick that bee hive they may wind up not having a choice but to go all in on an assault vs the xiticix which would be an enormous distraction at best and a horrible failure for those factions for their war efforts.

I still feel that Kevin S. made a mistake not having Laszlo join up in the war and not having the CS actually lose.

It just makes no sense to me. It is the kind of build up, narratively, of:

Then you didn't read the build up or any of the 'fluff' for the series. I'm sorry but it was very very clearly laid out why Lazlo didn't join up.

It went like this.

Tolkeen: "Hey, come join us! We're going to kick the spit out of the CS!"
Lazlo: "Um.. dude what? Are you high?
T: "No no really! Come join us! We're going to BEAT THE CS!"
L: "Dude, seriously, put down the pipe"
T: "WE HAVE MAGIC!!"
L: "Yeah so do we, dude, don't mess with the CS"
T: "MAGIC IS AWESOMESAUCE BRO! WE CAN'T LOSE!"
L: "You're going to lose"
T: "How could we lose??"
L: "They have literally millions of troops millions of dog boys, robots, power armor, skelebots and nukes. How could you win?
T: "We got the nukes covered"
L: "Ok well that's good but did you hear the rest?"
T: "Pffft we'll kick their butts!
L: "MILLIONS of Troops man. MILLIONS. Can you count to a million?
T: "It's just more zeroes, we're heroes yo!
L: "No really you're going to lose"
T: "Team up with us then! We'll win"
(and the very important part, SAID BY LAZLO DIRECTLY)
L: "No.. you won't. Even if ALL THE MAGIC KINGDOMS TEAMED UP AND ATTACKED AT ONCE, WE WOULD STILL LOSE. We'd hurt the CS more, but we'd STILL LOSE"
T: "Well F you brother! F you straight to hell!! We'll do it with out you! Whimps!"
L: "Please don't. Please. Run. Hide. Survive. Move your city with magic or some crap. Hide it from the CS, dont' fight them. You're going to die!"
T: "You'll see!! You'll rue the day!!!
L: *Sigh*
War.
Tolkeen loses as everyone in the Palladium universe told them they would
T: "Um we lost"
L: "We know"
T: "Can you take in all these refugees??"
L: *Sigh*


"The CS is super powerful! The can stomp anyone!

Not 'anyone' but a state, one ... 50th their size? Sure. That the war lasted as long as it did, was to sell books.

Tolkeen pulls out all the stops, mounts an amazing defense,

Not really. They did pull out alot of stops but their defnse seemed to consist of 'Hit them with crap they've never seen before" (Not a bad idea but didn't work) and "Let a LITERAL ARMY OF DEMONS out to fight for them.

tactically is brilliant,

Not even remotely close. Tactically brilliant isn't 'let out an army of demons so crappy that OTHER demons locked them up.

does everything right (from a purely tactical standpoint)

Again. Not at all. Not even close.

and... The CS makes monumentally stupid tactical mistakes,

This indeed is true. Monumental stupid mistakes were on both sides. TO SELL MORE BOOKS IN THE SERIES.

the CS uses tactics that are nothing but the height of stupidity, and still wins due to plot hand waving."

Not at all. Everyone on earth knew Tolkeen would lose. Everyone TOLD tolkeen it'd lose. Tolkeen chose a losing fight instead of getting out of the way. They had literal years to do so. Instead they stood there like a big dawg and got punched. They thought they were better than they were and thought they could take on a technological army with literal millions of troops. That's pretty dumb.

I mean just from a real world standpoint Lazlo was dumb not to get involved during SoT Book 5

lazlo told tolkeen they were going to lose before the first shot was fired and begged them not to do it.

Lazlo was right.

Why was Lazlo 'dumb'? Seems tolkeen got destroyed. Not Lazlo.....

Tolkeen's forces were depleted, the CS was the weakest they had ever been, while the CS and Tolkeen were both chomping at the bit for war at least Tolkeen could be reasoned with.

Again, not true. yes the CS was a touch weakened but was STILL strong enough to destroy tolkeen AND Lazlo. Lazlo knew it. how do we know they knew it? They straight up told Tolkeen "Even if we all team up, the CS will still win. We'd all die, and the CS would still be around. Just alot of dead people"

Nor could tolkeen be reasoned with. by that point Tolkeen had gone full darkside evil. They chose to go evil PURPOSEFULLY to win a fight, and still lost.

Even the Federation of Magic might have jumped in at that point.

Seriously, you should read the books. It explains why the Fed didn't get into it as well. Not the least of which, they hate tolkeen and wanted to see them die.

That whole series really should have ended with the CS military crushed and have the CS being gripped by panic and fear. Making them become even more violent and Xenophobic.

No. the entire series "SHOULD" have been a paragraph or two, then tolkeen be a glowing crater from the nuke. If that didn't work. the CS could outfit a special forces group to LOOK like mercs, put the nuke inside a gutted APC and drive it into tolkeen pretending to be mercs.. then blow it up.... but there was alot of stupid stuff on both sides so that the series was more than just a few paragraphs.

In no way shape or form was tolkeen ever said to be stronger than the CS or able to mop the floor with them. They did far far better than they should have. If for nothing else. Most spells have the range of 50-100 feet and laser rifles have range of 1000-2000 ft. lol[/quote]


The problem for lazlo is the old jewish saying. They came for my jews and I did nothing, then they came for the gypsies and I did nothing, then they came for me and there was nobody left to ask for help. By not helping tolkeen for whatever reason basically signed their own death warrant down the road baring a miracle. All the magical city states combining could at least have forced the CS off the war path to defend its own areas and stale mate the situation and maybe some or all of them survive. But when you let one of the biggest magical communities get knocked out without lifting a finger to help them who does that leave left to help lazlo when the time comes. New lazlo is tiny, dweomer would probably be willing to help but overall it is not that big of a city when you come right down to it and would be a drop in the bucket compared to what would be barreling down at lazlo when the CS decides its time. The rest of the federation of magic is not going to lift a finger to help they will sit back and eat their popcorn and laugh and say I told you so.

They would draw in a lot of heroes/freedom fighters but so did tolkeen and all that does is drag out the inevitable. Lazlo's best bet is figure out a way to mimic how the lemurians make their cities and craft one of their own for a newerer lazlo model 3 that can fly and go under water.

The only real magical threat near the CS that they could not punch out if they wanted to is the federation of magic simply because most of its threats are not in any particular city. And the cities that they do have either move around on their own/can't be seen/not actually in this dimension. It is just a massive counter insurgent operation with no real targets to knock out to "win" like they can vs tolkeen/lazlo. And insurgent type fighting is exactly the right way for mages to fight and what they are the best situated for and most capable of doing. The CS would love to take them out but due to the mass ley line access in the magic zone its next to impossible to kill enough federation of magic people to make a difference as they can mostly just keep popping around leyline to ley line and are not concentrated in any large numbers enough to matter.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Kinda ironic you said that....

Captain America has always been a Hydra spy, from the very very start......

Not going to derail, but I'm willing to bet that he wasn't. I'm further going to bet that it was something that happened when something that seemed to be controlled by a Hydra master who had a power comparable to a cosmic cube restored him. Remember, Cosmic Cubes can do weird things. I'm also willing to bet, since, you know he's the star of that book that it will all be resolved within the next 4-6 months and we will learn it was either some external force, a clone, or some kind of trick.

Those in power say it's none of those things. That it's really him.

Now.. the comic reader in me says you're likely right. Especially with the backlash they're getting. More over the movies that make 100s of millions coming out along the way, they won't stick with it, but at THIS moment, as we post, that's their story and they're sticking to it. So it is ironic you brought it up like that.

As to them not being that...

Oh please... Seriously, I'm pretty sure one of the books even said straight out that Prosek was inspired by them.

In part. Not totally. Their uniforms are. Some other aspects but it's not the only thing. Nor were the Nazi's "All bad" They did have cool uniforms. They had the trains running on time. Granted their evil very much offset the good things, but that's not the point.

The CS is more than "Just rift's nazzies" that's just lazy thinking by those that don't read deep enough into it and want to use them as loot pinyata's. There's plenty of people that would agree with you there, but these sorts also play games where they 'prey' on a military with millions and millions of troops and never get caught/hurt.

Not only that, but they had straight up concentration/death camps during SoT. Like, they had a North American version of Aushwitz.

We already have had north American interment camps... during WWII... ask the Japanese Americans....

Not for nothing, we've still got camps and such, Guantanamo Bay isn't a figment of anyone's imagination you know.

Prosek, in the artwork, is literally shown wearing a uniform styled after them.

Yes the uniforms take from the black nazi type. The uniforms are pretty cool. You can hatre Nazi's (I know I do) But it'd be a lie to say they didn't have some style.
Look at the French uniforms or the UN or those of the Vatacan or something.... the Nazi's uniforms look spiffy.

They perform experiments on (if not exterminate) captives. This includes, and is not limited to, surgical experimentation.

So do alot of countries. There were experiments in the US on babies at one time. On prisioners, etc. Many countries have had or currently do this. (Thankfully most are in the past but not all. Nor were all Nazi regimes)

The CS are Rifts Nazis.

Only if you don't look past the black uniforms.
Is there some inspiration there? Sure. Is that all they are? no.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The problem for lazlo is the old jewish saying. They came for my jews and I did nothing, then they came for the gypsies and I did nothing, then they came for me and there was nobody left to ask for help.

That's a cute visual and invokes kneejerk responce, but remember Lazlo is a kingdom of peace. They wern't going to go to war just because someone else wanted them too.

Also remember the important part, Lazlo has some of the smartest people on the planet. Some of the most magically talented people on the planet. They looked at the equation an saw the end result.

_____________EVEN IF ALL THE MAGICAL KINGDOMS TEAMED UP AT ONCE, THE CS WOULD STILL WIN________________

All the magical kingdoms would be destroyed, and the CS would remain. Weakened, yes, but alive. Bloodied? yes, but alive, where all the magical kingdoms would be destroyed.

So they had a choice. "Get in the fight and SURELY DIE" or

Avoid the fight and live on and perhaps gain peace at a later date. If not peace, evasion. They could hide their kingdom. Others have done so. Or leave via magic. Others have done so.

So it's "Fight and surely die.. or live and perhaps find another way"

Lazlo chose life, over stupidly dieing.

By not helping tolkeen for whatever reason basically signed their own death warrant down the road baring a miracle.

No what you (And many others) Aren't getting, is that it was already to that state. There was nothing that Lazlo joining in would have changed, other than this.

Lazlo would ALSO be destroyed.

Lazlo joining in wouldn't have made the CS lose the war. It would have just made lazlo share tolkeen's fate.

Tolkeen would be destroyed. Lazlo would be destroyed. The CS would have lost more troops but they 'broke even' as it is. They'd be fine.

If Lazlo has a death warrant down the road, it was signed before the war. had they jumped in the war, that warrant would have been served instantly.

How do we know this is so? Not because the CS bragged it, because ___LAZLO___ Said so to king Creed.

All the magical city states combining could at least have forced the CS off the war path to defend its own areas and stale mate the situation and maybe some or all of them survive.

No. Not really. If nothing else only tolkeen had the nuke barrier. Lazlo is known. The nukes would have flown and lazlo would be a glowing crater. And again. MILLIONS of troops. The CS could INDEED defend all comers (From the magic kingdoms) At once and still win. People just fail to comprehend how many '4 million+, Troops" Really is. The US forces today, all 50 states in this modern age dont' have a fourth as many troops. And that's before force multipliers like MD rifles, Power armor, hover tanks skelebots etc.

All the magic kingdoms added together, every man woman and child wouldn't rate a million people. and the CS FRONT LINE COMBAT TROOPS Alone was 4 times that many, minimum.

But when you let

It's not a matter of 'letting' it happen. It's a matter of 'Nothing Lazlo could have done, would have stopped it, and they'd just be dead too"

one of the biggest magical communities get knocked out without lifting a finger to help them who does that leave left to help lazlo when the time comes.

In short. Lazlo isn't stupid enough to get in a stand up fight with the CS. They told Tolkeen not to do it, that it was suicide, so they're not going to do it either.

New lazlo is tiny, dweomer would probably be willing to help but overall it is not that big of a city when you come right down to it and would be a drop in the bucket compared to what would be barreling down at lazlo when the CS decides its time. The rest of the federation of magic is not going to lift a finger to help they will sit back and eat their popcorn and laugh and say I told you so.

You're half right, but it circles back around to 'They're all tiny compaired to the CS" even if they all teamed up, it still wouldn't matter.

You're talking about house cat's teaming up to stop a freight train. If one's meowing for help it's sad, but if the other cat's are like 'Dude get off the tracks!" And that first cat is like 'Dude I can take him!!" and the other 4 cats are like 'No way"

That first cat goes "All 5 of us can take him!!" and the other 4 are like "No chance in hell"

They're not suddenly stupid for NOT jumping on the tracks with that one suicidal cat trying to stop the freight train. It wouldn't change the Freight train one bit, but all the cats would be dead, instead of the one stupid one.

They would draw in a lot of heroes/freedom fighters but so did tolkeen and all that does is drag out the inevitable. Lazlo's best bet is figure out a way to mimic how the lemurians make their cities and craft one of their own for a newerer lazlo model 3 that can fly and go under water.

Exactly and that's what I've always said. Theyr'e magical kingdoms. Use magic for a solution. Not a stand up fight with someone that out numbers you 500 to one. There's a dozen things they 'could' do to avoid war with such a juggernaut.

The only real magical threat near the CS that they could not punch out if they wanted to is the federation of magic simply because most of its threats are not in any particular city. And the cities that they do have either move around on their own/can't be seen/not actually in this dimension. It is just a massive counter insurgent operation with no real targets to knock out to "win" like they can vs tolkeen/lazlo. And insurgent type fighting is exactly the right way for mages to fight and what they are the best situated for and most capable of doing. The CS would love to take them out but due to the mass ley line access in the magic zone its next to impossible to kill enough federation of magic people to make a difference as they can mostly just keep popping around leyline to ley line and are not concentrated in any large numbers enough to matter.

In application yes. You're mostly right.

That said, it's largely due to the fact that the Palladium writers don't understand modern warfare, and how to use technological advantage.

There are ways to overcome such things and if you can create nuclear reactors the size of coffee cans and hockey pucks you could sure use them, but Palladum writer's military knowledge comes from 80s Chuck norris movies and the apex of their 'real' military tech is about 1978 or so. They just don't know "How" such things would be used.

Now... the 'arms race' would likely start up. When tech finds away around magic's ____ Magic would then find a way to overcome tech's advancement, then tech would need to overcome THAT

But... in universe, in the past 25 years, the time line in the game has only advanced 3 to 6 years or so.. so such advancements aren't seen. (out side the hand of god given to tolkeen to avoid the nukes, so the series would last more than three paragraphs.)

[HWalsh]

*snip*

Look, I do get it...

Some people are fans of the Coalition States.

Some people really don't want them to be seen as, "The Bad Guys."

However, there is a narrative problem with them... It is the "World of Darkness" problem. You can't have a monolithic apocalypse sitting over your head forever. You also can't keep a society together, under a military system like the CS uses, if there are no legitimate and credible threats.

Free Quebec leaving was probably the most realistic thing to happen in the setting with the CS. The CS are, no offense, evil. The CS is a wholly corrupt, ultra-violent, manipulative tyrannical dictatorship. I will tell you all Lazlo accomplished by sitting out... They managed to temporarily hold off death just a little longer but they ensured that they would die all the same. The CS will move on them, and they will have to flee. If they can.

Logic dictates that Lazlo should be abandoned now. Leave North America, let the Coalition have it. You aren't willing to fight them, you know you can't beat them, then why build a city? It serves no point. You will never be able to negotiate with them. The CS doesn't negotiate. You do what they say, how they say it, or you die. That is how they think, act, and behave.

The only way North America can continue to exist, as a viable place to play, if the metaplot keeps advancing, is if something cripples the CS. Something bad has to happen to them. Maybe it needs to be plot. Maybe during the Minion War someone will whip out some unknown, never-before-seen, magical ritual and in a flash Chi-Town and the Coalition Leadership are obliterated and wiped off the map. Maybe someone will sneak a nuke into the city and boom... Annihilate it... Maybe someone will unleash a legitimate biological weapon and wipe it off the face of the planet.

As long as the CS, however, are painted as truly unbeatable... The setting loses something. When there are no legitimate threats to them the setting loses something.

Tolkeen should have at least inflicted enough damage that the CS would have had to halt plans for expansion for years... Instead it is painted as all they managed was to annoy them... Slightly...

For me, as a person who follows the lore more than actually playing the game, it made the setting worse for me.

Side note:
Palladium's writers also don't understand insurgent fighting tactics and modern weapons. The CS shouldn't be a world power because Magic is a thing, and refusing to use it would instantly make you weaker than the guys that do use it, especially if those guys are willing to use tech as well.

I at least have my own game world's plot.

The CS lost at Tolkeen. They won, crushing Tolkeen, but they didn't manage to stop all of the assassins in Chi-Town. Following the fall of their city, the implanted assassins initiated a suicide bombing strategy with a small scale nuclear weapon. Chi-Town is a glowing crater. Long live the Coalition.

[Killer Cyborg]

Was The Empire a Mary Sue in Star Wars...?

Uh.. "Mary Sue", no,

And there you have it.

but winning by plot-fiat? Definitely. The Empire became a thing because Lucas said so.

Right. As opposed to that other thing that some other author made up.

[Alrik Vas]

I at least have my own game world's plot.

The CS lost at Tolkeen. They won, crushing Tolkeen, but they didn't manage to stop all of the assassins in Chi-Town. Following the fall of their city, the implanted assassins initiated a suicide bombing strategy with a small scale nuclear weapon. Chi-Town is a glowing crater. Long live the Coalition.

That's nice to do things like that. I think we should all explore our own versions of events. I don't agree when your outcome, but it doesn't mean it can't happen.

I agree Palladium doesn't address insurgency very well considering their own material, but I also think what's worse is they make too many absolutes. The tolkeen barrier for one, the CS' supremacy is another. Of course this is only perception. The barrier fell, so can the CS. The writers may not give you what you want, jut since you've decided how it should go on your own, it doesn't matter much.

[Killer Cyborg]

However, there is a narrative problem with them... It is the "World of Darkness" problem. You can't have a monolithic apocalypse sitting over your head forever. You also can't keep a society together, under a military system like the CS uses, if there are no legitimate and credible threats.

You don't see anything deadly in the world of Rifts?

There's like 1.2 billion xiticix alone, not to mention the Federation of Magic, the vampires, and all the other crap out there.

Or, to put it another way, who is the credible threat to the United States that justifies OUR massive military?

[Killer Cyborg]

It just makes no sense to me. It is the kind of build up, narratively, of:

"The CS is super powerful! The can stomp anyone! Tolkeen pulls out all the stops, mounts an amazing defense, tactically is brilliant, does everything right (from a purely tactical standpoint) and... The CS makes monumentally stupid tactical mistakes, the CS uses tactics that are nothing but the height of stupidity, and still wins due to plot hand waving."

First of all, BOTH sides were written very poorly, and both sides did a lot of stupid things.

Secondly, the CS had more dogboys in 101 PA than every man, woman, child, and volunteer D-Bee in Tolkeen at the height of Tolkeen's power.
How'd you think it was going to go, when the cannon fodder on one side outnumbers the entire population of the other?

Tolkeen did stupidly well, as if they had the magic hand of KS himself trying to even the odds in their favor.
Seriously, it'd be like the US going to war with Swaziland.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think it's been established that the Minion War isn't much of a threat.

Care to elaborate?

[Alrik Vas]

I think one of the problems here is how they handle plot. Some have said this before, but I think I can simplify things a bit.

Palladium makes the plot for the players to interact with, so they can be the heroes.

Then they turn around and tell us how it really went instead.

[HWalsh]

However, there is a narrative problem with them... It is the "World of Darkness" problem. You can't have a monolithic apocalypse sitting over your head forever. You also can't keep a society together, under a military system like the CS uses, if there are no legitimate and credible threats.

You don't see anything deadly in the world of Rifts?

I see nothing deadly to the CS. Not the way they are written.

There's like 1.2 billion xiticix alone, not to mention the Federation of Magic, the vampires, and all the other crap out there.

The Xitcix aren't a threat to the CS. Not only is every faction actively planning ways to deal with them save for the Republicans and the FoM but the CS is depicted as having unlimited troops and equipment. The Xitcix have no way to handle massive area effects which the CS has in abundance.

The bugs have sheer numbers but no way to innovate defense. You think Tolkeen didn't ever stand a chance? At least they had a way to deal with nukes.

Heck, tactically speaking, the bugs are easy to deal with. We already saw that CS troops with no support, massively outnumbered, can walk right through the heart of Xitcix territory and only lose 25% of their troops while running from the worst "loss" they've ever experienced.

The FoM? They're less than a threat than Tolkeen was. They are only harder to find, but they can't do anything to the virtually unlimited size of the CS army.

Vampires? Maybe a threat. Only because technology isn't so good on them. Of course outfit them with high pressure super soakers and they'll beat them.

Or, to put it another way, who is the credible threat to the United States that justifies OUR massive military?

Oh big difference there. The reason we haven't revolted in real life is because we can air grievances and are allowed at least the illusion of being able to change things. You don't get that in the CS. In the CS a politician like, say, Sanders would have been killed by the state for daring to speak against any CS policy.

I mean heck our STATES threaten secession every 4 years for simple policies. If a city in the CS said that the CS would roll up with their army, kill the leaders who suggested it, stand outside the Capitol building with MD weapons and say, "Does anyone else think the public should have a right to basic education?" Followed by a dramatic shotgun "Ka-chack" for emphasis.

[kaid]

I think it's been established that the Minion War isn't much of a threat.

Care to elaborate?

I am also curious about this. The biggest problem in the minion war is if you can find the hell pits and take them out soon after construction you could heavily blunt the invasion. The problem is the strongest defenders capable of doing this are highly regional actors. Knocking down the hell pits in the midwest/east coast of america is all find and dandy but what about the ones popping up in areas that nobody claims like africa/the outback of australia/ parts of asia/the arctic/the ocean floor you could think you have been winning locally only to find out there are hundreds/thousands of hell pits belching millions of minions in areas you would have had a hard time reaching even when there were no demon gysers.

Really the best bet for local defenders is stymie the demons/devils long enough and hope they get bored and give up or take the fight elsewhere. Neither the demon nor devil forces are that cohesive frustrate them long enough and it is possible that they may beat themselves.

[Proseksword]

The way the CS is built in canon right now, they are the absolute superpower of North America........Given how rabidly anti-magic they are, Kingsdale, Arzno, and the Colorado Baronies should all be glowing craters devoid of life.

Even superpowers can find themselves in a difficult bind when they get down to the business of actively trying to conquer and control a hostile state - think any of a dozen inconclusive military conflicts the US has fought over the last several decades. While the CS could win outright against any of them, their are significant strategic concerns that arise from such campaigns.

1 - The CS still has a finite amount of military power it can project. While they could easily overwhelm all three kingdoms you mention simultaneously, such an operation would likely weaken their defenses in a way which might goad one of the stronger threats to them like the Federation of Magic, Hades, Dyval, the Mexico Empire or Atlantis to take a shot at them.
2 - An overt policy of offensive operations against every inhuman power on all fronts would encourage all of the CS's enemies to finally rally and ally to defeat it once and for all. Perpetuating the illusion of security is what goads comfortable citizens of states like Lazlo to decide it's better to stay out of the War at Tolkeen than dive in to help, because they don't see the invasion of Michigan by the CS as inevitable.
3 - These minor powers are a limited threat to the CS, but as they are known gathering points for CS enemies, they can be more easily monitored by CS Intelligence to discern and counter potential threats to the CS. Blowing up the Colorado Baronies wouldn't eliminate TW manufacturing from the New West - it would simply move elsewhere. Why start the process of having to track down these new potential threats all over again when you can monitor the existing ones?

Until the Minion War started, the CS should have been gearing up to move on Lazlo and wiping them off the map as well. They literally have more men under arms (not even counting mercs and skelebots) than Lazlo has people.

They probably were, but 2 years wasn't much time.

[Proseksword]

I still feel that Kevin S. made a mistake not having Laszlo join up in the war and not having the CS actually lose.

It just makes no sense to me.

In the 1930s, all the signs were there that Germany was out to build an empire again, and despite having the justification in international law to invade Germany and disarm her, the countries of Europe simply sat-by and let Germany annex country after country. People who live comfortable, peaceful lives will often put off making war even when the threat to their well-being is starring them right in the face. People do a lot of things that don't make logical sense. I'm not sure we should demand that fictional characters be more sensible than real people.

[Proseksword]

I mean, let's be honest here the CS is a representation of a certain reviled faction from human history that once participated in a genocide attempt during a period of time between 1935 and 1945.

I may be a CS fanboy, but I'm more than able to admit they've engaged in a lot of evil actions. Be that as it may, stating "the Coalition are Nazis" carries a lot of inaccurate implications.

Are the Coalition States fascist? Yes, but the dangers of RIFTs Earth are such that survival is a challenge which the overwhelming majority of communities have managed to overcome only by becoming highly-armed military camps with strict resource management. Most of RIFTs Earth's governments could be described as some manner of fascist or autocratic.

Are the Coalition States xenophobic? Certainly, but this doesn't arise from some bizarre, nonsensical Social-Darwinism imperative to prove the stronger of some arbitrary racial group. Rather, it arises from the quite real threat to a frail and fragile humanity from a world full of demons and aliens that can shape-shift, use mind control, teleport, and bring death with a word or a glance. How does one prove a D-bee isn't a poly-morphed demon? How can you be sure you're actually getting on swell with that Larmac and aren't just being mentally manipulated to feel that way? In a world where supernatural creatures regularly pray on humans with these very tactics, the Coalition States are making the rational decision not to take a chance.

Does the Coalition register, track, and control a minority group (psychics)? Yes, but without such measures, psychic criminals would be virtually impossible to bring to justice. Without a system for identifying and controlling all psychics, mundane law enforcement officers could be mind controlled or otherwise circumvented.

Does the Coalition maintain a strict control on the dissemination of information and education? Yes, but in a world where a certain chant or words read from a scroll could empower an individual to inflict significant damage to their community, possibly even inadvertently, it's wise to ensure anything disseminated to the public has been checked and deemed safe.

The Coalition States does all sorts of awful things, but unlike the Nazis, these actions aren't simply born out of lust for power and emotional prerogative, but a direct response to threats to the human race. Point in fact, we have seen the Coalition repeatedly condemn or counteract actions that go beyond the perceived levels necessary for simple survival - Drogue's death camps at Tolkeen were shut down by the Emperor himself when he found out about them, and many a Coalition soldier has allowed a seemingly peaceful d-bee to leave rather than exterminate them. Whereas Free Quebec (in my mind the greater evil) will not tolerate known psychics or mutant animals to live in their communities, the Coalition embraces those who have taken the step to prove themselves allies of humanity.

The Coalition States in general and Karl Prosek in particular have a lot to answer for, but to call them plain old Nazis really does the whole moral ambiguity of the setting a great injustice. If anything, they're far more akin to Warhammer 40K's Imperium of Mankind - doing terrible things to innocent people for the greater good of innocent people.

[HWalsh]

I mean, let's be honest here the CS is a representation of a certain reviled faction from human history that once participated in a genocide attempt during a period of time between 1935 and 1945.

I may be a CS fanboy, but I'm more than able to admit they've engaged in a lot of evil actions. Be that as it may, stating "the Coalition are Nazis" carries a lot of inaccurate implications.

I shall refute each of these points individually.

Are the Coalition States fascist? Yes, but the dangers of RIFTs Earth are such that survival is a challenge which the overwhelming majority of communities have managed to overcome only by becoming highly-armed military camps with strict resource management. Most of RIFTs Earth's governments could be described as some manner of fascist or autocratic.

Save for ones that aren't.

Such as Tolkeen, before the CS threatened them. Such as Lazlo, which is basically the model society that the CS should be trying to emulate rather than destroy. Tolkeen was, and Lazlo is, better morally than the CS.

Are the Coalition States xenophobic? Certainly, but this doesn't arise from some bizarre, nonsensical Social-Darwinism imperative to prove the stronger of some arbitrary racial group. Rather, it arises from the quite real threat to a frail and fragile humanity from a world full of demons and aliens that can shape-shift, use mind control, teleport, and bring death with a word or a glance. How does one prove a D-bee isn't a poly-morphed demon? How can you be sure you're actually getting on swell with that Larmac and aren't just being mentally manipulated to feel that way? In a world where supernatural creatures regularly pray on humans with these very tactics, the Coalition States are making the rational decision not to take a chance.

Nope. Not buying it. It's rational to destroy a demon, yes. Is it rational to kill... An elf? Is it rational to kill a human historian? The fact that there are/were places in Rifts where we know humans and deebees live side by side peacefully and symbiotically automatically makes it irrational.

Heck, even Palladium admits it is irrational! If Prosek ever got zapped by the bauble of great wisdom we know that gaining wisdom would make him back off from the xenophobia.

Xenophobia is phobia and it, by definition, is irrational.

Does the Coalition register, track, and control a minority group (psychics)? Yes, but without such measures, psychic criminals would be virtually impossible to bring to justice. Without a system for identifying and controlling all psychics, mundane law enforcement officers could be mind controlled or otherwise circumvented.

You know what else can circumvent law enforcement? Money. Power. Noble classes. I don't see the CS cracking down on those. I wonder why an Emperor, with unlimited power, wouldn't crack down on money, power, and social status... hrm...

Also... Again... We have societies that are thriving WITHOUT those safeguards. If they are necessary, which they clearly aren't, then the argument would be valid.

That is just a BS excuse the CS is using. It's a lie. A lie designed to prey on fears. Nothing more.

Does the Coalition maintain a strict control on the dissemination of information and education? Yes, but in a world where a certain chant or words read from a scroll could empower an individual to inflict significant damage to their community, possibly even inadvertently, it's wise to ensure anything disseminated to the public has been checked and deemed safe.

More coalition propaganda and I'm not simple minded enough to drink the kool-aid. It's an automatically invalid argument. We have examples of societies: Tolkeen, Lazlo, Free Quebec, the NGR that function PERFECTLY FINE with public education and high literacy rates.

The real reason? By limiting education and information you keep the population ignorant and docile. You stop them from learning the truth.

The Coalition States does all sorts of awful things, but unlike the Nazis, these actions aren't simply born out of lust for power and emotional prerogative, but a direct response to threats to the human race. Point in fact, we have seen the Coalition repeatedly condemn or counteract actions that go beyond the perceived levels necessary for simple survival - Drogue's death camps at Tolkeen were shut down by the Emperor himself when he found out about them, and many a Coalition soldier has allowed a seemingly peaceful d-bee to leave rather than exterminate them.

If a CS soldier is caught allowing a deebee to escape, even a child, they are arrested and executed. Stated in SoT.

Whereas Free Quebec (in my mind the greater evil) will not tolerate known psychics or mutant animals to live in their communities, the Coalition embraces those who have taken the step to prove themselves allies of humanity.

Tolkeen never hurt the CS before the CS fired the first shot. How is Lazlo a threat to humanity? How is Erin Tarn a threat to humanity?

A threat to the CS is not a threat to humanity. The CS is a threat to humanity.

The Coalition States in general and Karl Prosek in particular have a lot to answer for, but to call them plain old Nazis really does the whole moral ambiguity of the setting a great injustice. If anything, they're far more akin to Warhammer 40K's Imperium of Mankind - doing terrible things to innocent people for the greater good of innocent people.

There is no such thing as the "Greater Good" that is just a lie evil people tell themselves so they don't have to admit that they're evil. The ends never justify the means. Saving humanity by way of being inhumane doesn't save it. It creates something different, something dangerous, something more alien than any deebee.

[Alrik Vas]

We're already had "is the CS evil?" discussion. No one is even refuting their crimes. Justifying maybe, but justification is irrelevant in the face if bald faced idealism, which people are more than happy to spew out in waves against the CS, but not any other faction. Regardless, even that doesn't excuse the CS from their deeds.

So, let's stick to the OP.

[kaid]

The way the CS is built in canon right now, they are the absolute superpower of North America........Given how rabidly anti-magic they are, Kingsdale, Arzno, and the Colorado Baronies should all be glowing craters devoid of life.

Even superpowers can find themselves in a difficult bind when they get down to the business of actively trying to conquer and control a hostile state - think any of a dozen inconclusive military conflicts the US has fought over the last several decades. While the CS could win outright against any of them, their are significant strategic concerns that arise from such campaigns.

1 - The CS still has a finite amount of military power it can project. While they could easily overwhelm all three kingdoms you mention simultaneously, such an operation would likely weaken their defenses in a way which might goad one of the stronger threats to them like the Federation of Magic, Hades, Dyval, the Mexico Empire or Atlantis to take a shot at them.
2 - An overt policy of offensive operations against every inhuman power on all fronts would encourage all of the CS's enemies to finally rally and ally to defeat it once and for all. Perpetuating the illusion of security is what goads comfortable citizens of states like Lazlo to decide it's better to stay out of the War at Tolkeen than dive in to help, because they don't see the invasion of Michigan by the CS as inevitable.
3 - These minor powers are a limited threat to the CS, but as they are known gathering points for CS enemies, they can be more easily monitored by CS Intelligence to discern and counter potential threats to the CS. Blowing up the Colorado Baronies wouldn't eliminate TW manufacturing from the New West - it would simply move elsewhere. Why start the process of having to track down these new potential threats all over again when you can monitor the existing ones?

Until the Minion War started, the CS should have been gearing up to move on Lazlo and wiping them off the map as well. They literally have more men under arms (not even counting mercs and skelebots) than Lazlo has people.

They probably were, but 2 years wasn't much time.

The CS has had their 20 year expansion plan for a while and mostly their focus is on consolidating what they already have and the mississippi corridor. As belligerent as they come across they could easily zip in and squash places like new lazlo if they chose to at just about any time they chose to do so but have not to date. Even their tolkeen offensive is a modification on their slow/steady growth pattern securing the northern end of their control of the mississippi. Really if not for the minion war xiticix probably would be next at bat before anything else. Left unchecked they could quickly grow into the more bugs than bullets level of threat where you simply could not kill them fast enough in big enough numbers to fend off the swarm.

One reason I think the CS has held off going all in on the xitixics as long as they have is once you start that fight you are pretty much in it to win it or until you get eaten. Once you kick the hives hard enough its going to be an all out war for survival. This is why some of the minion war generals blithly going in thinking they will procure some new minions may wind up costing them their war. That is not a task to engaged in when starting wars on other fronts.

[Proseksword]

We're already had "is the CS evil?" discussion. No one is even refuting their crimes. Justifying maybe, but justification is irrelevant in the face if bald faced idealism, which people are more than happy to spew out in waves against the CS, but not any other faction.

I must admit, I was hoping for a little bit more of a discussion than "No it's not! No it's not! Yes they are! Yes they are!" Since HWalsh doesn't seem to even want to entertain a different perspective, I guess there's no point in continuing, but I feel like it's ultimately an important part of understanding the narrative picture.

HWalsh, all I can say is that your problem with the meta-plot may have more to do with your very black and white understanding of what the Coalition States are and their place in the RIFTS narrative, and that if you were willing to see more shades of gray than simply Lawful Good and "the wicked rest", you might have less frustration with the story as presented.

[kaid]

The higher ups of the CS are pretty clearly evil but a lot of the CS states and their behavior is pretty reasonable extrapolation over common reflexive behavior humans have in the face of threats from "outsiders". It is a pattern that repeats itself often in history to lesser or greater extent.

A lot of their views are influenced greatly by the history of the CS and the first attacks by the federation of magic. Had that not happened it is entirely possible the CS would have gone a different route.

The interesting thing would be how does the CS change if the minion war really hits the fan as bad as it could. War makes for strange bedfellows and its hard to unring a bell of your troops working in close proximity to people currently seen as enemies bleeding and dying fighting the same foes. I don't think the CS would ever be any kind of shining paladin on the hill but it could easily turn into something more like triax. Anti D-bee but not going out of their way to hunt them and allowing at least a second class citizen level of tolerance towards them.

[Killer Cyborg]

However, there is a narrative problem with them... It is the "World of Darkness" problem. You can't have a monolithic apocalypse sitting over your head forever. You also can't keep a society together, under a military system like the CS uses, if there are no legitimate and credible threats.

You don't see anything deadly in the world of Rifts?

I see nothing deadly to the CS. Not the way they are written.

a) I don't think you're looking very hard.
b) Armies and infrastructure don't have to exist to combat real threats to the entire nation.
A perceived threat would do it.
So would a threat to part of the nation.
Al Quada was never a threat to the United States as a whole. They killed fewer people with their best attack than traffic does. Yet look how we as a nation reacted.

There's like 1.2 billion xiticix alone, not to mention the Federation of Magic, the vampires, and all the other crap out there.

The Xitcix aren't a threat to the CS.

I suggest you do the math.

Not only is every faction actively planning ways to deal with them save for the Republicans and the FoM

No, really, do the math.
The CS has something like 24+ million citizens.
The FoM has what, 1d2 million combined?
The Republicans have like 1d6x10k?

It's not impossible for the CS and/or other factions to take out the Xiticix, but not in conventional warfare.
Kind of like how it's possible for the FoM or other factions to take out the CS... just not in conventional warfare.

Edit:
FYI, Atlantis can officially take out either the CS or the Xiticix pretty much at their whim.

but the CS is depicted as having unlimited troops and equipment.

No, they're not. That's why it taxed them to take out even a speedbump nation like Tolkeen.

The Xitcix have no way to handle massive area effects which the CS has in abundance.

There are official stats in XI describing the kind of damage that the CS could do with prolonged bombardment.
It's not impressive, considering their numbers.

The bugs have sheer numbers but no way to innovate defense.

Yeah, just like Tolkeen didn't have any way to protect against nukes... until the SoT books came out.
Don't assume that the XI book describes every one of the Xiticix' capabilities.

Heck, tactically speaking, the bugs are easy to deal with. We already saw that CS troops with no support, massively outnumbered, can walk right through the heart of Xitcix territory and only lose 25% of their troops while running from the worst "loss" they've ever experienced.

You can't defeat an enemy by walking through their territory and never attacking.

The FoM? They're less than a threat than Tolkeen was.

Hm. I don't agree with that, simply because there are so many factions.
Again, though, they don't have to be a "we can invade you directly and take over your territory" kind of threat in order to create massive military opposition. The original FOM were terrorists. That's sufficient.

They are only harder to find, but they can't do anything to the virtually unlimited size of the CS army.

That depends entirely on who you ask.
Some people claim that the CS is only still alive because they're protected by the magic hand of KS himself, and that they should have lost the Tolkeen war.
There have been quite a few threads where people argue that Chi Town has no defenses against elementals and other certain attacks.

Personally, I'm with you--I assume that if they were a "we can overpower and defeat you" kind of threat, that they'd have done it so far.
Instead, they're a Star Wars Rebellion kind of threat. They're outnumbered, outgunned, and there's no way to win a conventional fight... but that doesn't mean that they're not able to win if they find the right people and strategy.

Vampires? Maybe a threat. Only because technology isn't so good on them. Of course outfit them with high pressure super soakers and they'll beat them.

You're not using vampires right.

Or, to put it another way, who is the credible threat to the United States that justifies OUR massive military?

Oh big difference there. The reason we haven't revolted in real life is because we can air grievances and are allowed at least the illusion of being able to change things.

You don't think that it has something to do with people being relatively satisfied with the society that they're in, and not wanting to look too closely at how many people die overseas in the process?
Or that it has something to do with xenophobia and racism, or simply nationalism, helping people band together?

The ONLY reason is simply because we can air grievances, and have the illusion of change?
I'm not buying it.

But also, what makes you think that the CS doesn't provide a similar illusion?

You don't get that in the CS. In the CS a politician like, say, Sanders would have been killed by the state for daring to speak against any CS policy.

Perhaps, but not openly.

I mean heck our STATES threaten secession every 4 years for simple policies. If a city in the CS said that the CS would roll up with their army, kill the leaders who suggested it, stand outside the Capitol building with MD weapons and say, "Does anyone else think the public should have a right to basic education?" Followed by a dramatic shotgun "Ka-chack" for emphasis.

I think it would depend on whether the state was just sabre-rattling, or if they meant it.
Keep in mind what happened the last time states in the US really MEANT what they said about secession.

Meanwhile, Free Quebec actually HAS seceded, and the CS is cool with it at this point.