Cyber armor question

[Sir Dellis]

I'm sure that this has been asked and I did try to search for a prior thread but had no luck. Does a Cyber Knight have to take cyber armor?

Here is why I ask. I'm creating a "time travel" scenario/adventure in a Rifts/Palladium RPG crossover campaign for my players. My wife and my friends and I have played in a generational campaign for years. My original character (Sir Dellis, a night elf Paladin of Rurga) married my wife's character (a night elf noble) (Go figure, lol), had kids and for about the last 15 years, we have all played either the original character or descendants of those characters. Currently, my wife is playing the grand daughter of our original characters.

My character, Dellis, had a son who was kidnapped as a baby and taken into Rifts. It took 3 years of real time to rescue him. Although, I have never played the son in an active campaign, he has been an active NPC for years and is a Cyber Knight. Well, time has come for me to actually create a character sheet for him. The way I have played him as a NPC (I'm usually the GM for our campaigns), he would not accept the Cyber armor grafting. hence my original question.

Thanks in advance for any help/suggestions

[Mack]

Nope, I see no reason to force it upon a Cyber Knight.

[Library Ogre]

I wouldn't require it, though the modifications made in SOT and the RUE make it less "cyber armor" and more "weird biomechanical flesh replacement."

[eliakon]

Since there is at least one canon Cyberknight in the game that doesn't have it (The bat lady from Arnzo), its pretty clear that it is optional.

[glitterboy2098]

i would assume that while the cyberknights heavily encourage it's implantation (on basis of 'cyberknight traditions' and increased survival), it would be optional. if a race cannot accept cybernetic implants (since it is a standard implant at the start) or who choose to refuse it, they don't get it. i suspect though that fairly few choose to turn it down.

IMO if a player or NPC does not have it, they should gain some alternate option instead, like access to a better suit of starting armor or some extra starting gear, etc.. to reflect the fact that the OCC was created with the cyberarmor assumed as part of the starting gear.. and the reflect the cyberknight order giving the character something extra to compensate for their choice and ensure that the new Knight isn't starting with a handicap relative to the other new knights which did choose the armor.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm with GB on this one. It's more "Highly traditional/standard operating proceedure/ a 'given'.

That said if someone just flat out didn't want it, the CK's are the type to be like "DO IT OR YOU'RE OUT OF THE ORDER"

On the other hand I would NOT give them some other bonus to replace it. If they chose not to have it. Cool. That's fine. That's your choice. your character. But it's not an alacart thing where you just trade it in for the enhancement you want instead.

[glitterboy2098]

to be honest i had figured the GM would be the one deciding what extra a player gets. and that it would be a minor thing. a branaghan coat over the armor for example, or a few extra E-clips, etc.

as far as "do it or leave" goes.. i suspect it would depend on the Knight overseeing the training. the training of a cyberknight, going by SOT4 seems to be heavy on individual training with a mentor. which means exactly how the training goes will vary depending on who you end up with training you. some might be unwilling to bend on traditions like cyberarmor. others might see choosing not to take the cyberarmor as a sign of courage and tenacity. etc.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't see them forcing bionic stuff on someone that doesn't want it though. "Tradition" ehh.. "here's very invasive surgery that you don't want. Take it or your out of the Knighthood" just doesn't seem like it would fly.

As for the individual training with a mentor. yes, they "Jedi'd it up" even more than it was to start.

[glitterboy2098]

i think you had a typo then in your previous response then since you said

"That said if someone just flat out didn't want it, the CK's are the type to be like "DO IT OR YOU'RE OUT OF THE ORDER"

i guess you left out a "not" somewhere there?

[Incriptus]

but ... but ... but that's the only thing that makes you "Knights" "Cyber"

Teasing aside, I would say yes to a player making the request without hesitation.

[Pepsi Jedi]

i think you had a typo then in your previous response then since you said

"That said if someone just flat out didn't want it, the CK's are the type to be like "DO IT OR YOU'RE OUT OF THE ORDER"

i guess you left out a "not" somewhere there?

yeah.

[Ed]

Play a duelist. They have many of the same powers as the Cyberknight without the cyber armor.

[Hotrod]

I'm still a little grumpy about how Cyber-Knights were turned into anti-tech melee fighters to give them a bigger role fighting for Tolkeen, but the armor is one of the areas of the revamp that didn't bug me so much. Why turn it down?

[eliakon]

I'm still a little grumpy about how Cyber-Knights were turned into anti-tech melee fighters to give them a bigger role fighting for Tolkeen, but the armor is one of the areas of the revamp that didn't bug me so much. Why turn it down?

Well, at least their name was Cyber-Knight. So the idea wasn't quite as bad as it could have been.

But off hand the first reason that comes to mind is if your a Native American, Jungle Elf, Lemurian, or some other person who has an aversion to high technology. After all there are a lot of people out there who have no interest in getting cybernetics of any kind for various racial, cultural, philosophical, or religious reasons... but who are still interested in fighting the good fight. And with the anti-tech focus of the knights it makes even more sense that those who feel that technology is evil would be drawn to an order of crusaders who fight evil AND give their members powers to battle the spawn of science...

[Pepsi Jedi]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

[eliakon]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

[rem1093]

nobody mentions that the armor can only be bonded to the Knight in one place. So that would mean that any knight from anywhere, but the States, would not have the Armor. But that doesn't mean that they not knights.
As a side thing I personally think that the same bonding process can work on other bionics.

[Ed]

I'm still a little grumpy about how Cyber-Knights were turned into anti-tech melee fighters to give them a bigger role fighting for Tolkeen, but the armor is one of the areas of the revamp that didn't bug me so much. Why turn it down?

Well, at least their name was Cyber-Knight. So the idea wasn't quite as bad as it could have been.

But off hand the first reason that comes to mind is if your a Native American, Jungle Elf, Lemurian, or some other person who has an aversion to high technology. After all there are a lot of people out there who have no interest in getting cybernetics of any kind for various racial, cultural, philosophical, or religious reasons... but who are still interested in fighting the good fight. And with the anti-tech focus of the knights it makes even more sense that those who feel that technology is evil would be drawn to an order of crusaders who fight evil AND give their members powers to battle the spawn of science...

Those folks would still get to fight the good fight, just as some other profession.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm still a little grumpy about how Cyber-Knights were turned into anti-tech melee fighters to give them a bigger role fighting for Tolkeen, but the armor is one of the areas of the revamp that didn't bug me so much. Why turn it down?

Well, at least their name was Cyber-Knight. So the idea wasn't quite as bad as it could have been.

It comes down to perspective.
To me, anti-tech powers and living armor are the opposite of "cyber."

Although I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of cybernetics merging so completely as to be considered a part of the knight. I'd have just taken it in a bit different direction, allowing the cyber-armor to not be included when counting up cybernetic/bionic penalties to psychic powers.
At later levels, I'd have allowed them to have other cybernetics/bionics work the same way, making CKs the only class who could have cybernetics/bionics in larger amounts without crippling their psychic powers.

But you know, different strokes for different folks.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

lol where do you get... any of that?

[Slight001]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

lol where do you get... any of that?

iirc don't the NA's get all pissy about using technology/ways and not (ie only) their 'traditional' ways/tech? That's my memory of the write up at least...

[Ed]

I'm still a little grumpy about how Cyber-Knights were turned into anti-tech melee fighters to give them a bigger role fighting for Tolkeen, but the armor is one of the areas of the revamp that didn't bug me so much. Why turn it down?

Well, at least their name was Cyber-Knight. So the idea wasn't quite as bad as it could have been.

It comes down to perspective.
To me, anti-tech powers and living armor are the opposite of "cyber."

Although I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of cybernetics merging so completely as to be considered a part of the knight. I'd have just taken it in a bit different direction, allowing the cyber-armor to not be included when counting up cybernetic/bionic penalties to psychic powers.
At later levels, I'd have allowed them to have other cybernetics/bionics work the same way, making CKs the only class who could have cybernetics/bionics in larger amounts without crippling their psychic powers.

But you know, different strokes for different folks.

Living cyber armor always bothered me as well. It just seemed like change for the sake of change. And to create a handy anti CS powerblock.

[eliakon]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

lol where do you get... any of that?

Looking at the Spirit West book?
Lets see. He uses Cybernetics, Energy Weapons, modern vehicles, has an OCC that is only open to Renegades, and his write up has no totem powers...
Yeah, sounds like a Renegade.
The rest follows from the definition of Renegade as per the Spirit West book.

[Alrik Vas]

"Lord Coake sods off into seclusion, works with the blessed chiang ku developing this new fighting technique that will CHANGE THE GAME. What's he come up with? Training to fight the bloody CS when demons and deevyls are a thing. Balderdash! Bush league! Amateur hour I say!"

...said every cyberknight who could see past his own nose.

[eliakon]

"Lord Coake sods off into seclusion, works with the blessed chiang ku developing this new fighting technique that will CHANGE THE GAME. What's he come up with? Training to fight the bloody CS when demons and deevyls are a thing. Balderdash! Bush league! Amateur hour I say!"

...said every cyberknight who could see past his own nose.

That is one way to look at it.
Another way is to figure that there are a lot of orders out there that are dedicated to fighting demons, and undead...
...and no other order that is able to challenge the high tech bandits that are a common and pervasive threat.

It wasn't until the current game I was in where I am playing an amped up cybernetic killing machine that I realized just how that worked. Lynette is an utterly amoral murder hobo capable of (and in fact has) slaughtering her way through hordes of foes single handedly...
... but she can't win a single sparing match against the parties cyber-knights who are the only thing so far she has ever faced that she truly fears. She may say that they cheat, she may say that their powers are unfair. But it is no more unfair then her implants. And in the final analysis, at least the knight had to work for his spurs.

Cyber-knights may not be perfect against demons, or vampires. But if you have rouge juicers, or a murderous MOM? Soldiers armed with weapons or marauding bandits with a suit of power armor? Mechanoids in your neighbor hood, or maybe the Kittani have come to call? Call a Cyber-knight. Some one had to take up the slack, and Lord Coake seems to be of the opinion that if he doesn't do it, who will?

Everyone may not agree with me, and yeah, maybe a different anti-tech order would have been a better idea. But I can now honestly say that the concept of

[Alrik Vas]

No, I see your point of view. There are a lot of reasons for anti-tech methods. Yet prior to me finding out how weak they were as a megaversal force in reality, I'd taken Palladium at their word and considered demons etc as the worst thing ever. Now the worst thing ever is clearly HU converted cyborgs that become MDC because of the nonsense of the megaverse creator.

[Glistam]

No, I see your point of view. There are a lot of reasons for anti-tech methods. Yet prior to me finding out how weak they were as a megaversal force in reality, I'd taken Palladium at their word and considered demons etc as the worst thing ever. Now the worst thing ever is clearly HU converted cyborgs that become MDC because of the nonsense of the megaverse creator.

The Mechanoids are the worst thing ever, and the current version of Cyber Knights are amazing against them.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

lol where do you get... any of that?

Looking at the Spirit West book?
Lets see. He uses Cybernetics, Energy Weapons, modern vehicles, has an OCC that is only open to Renegades, and his write up has no totem powers...
Yeah, sounds like a Renegade.
The rest follows from the definition of Renegade as per the Spirit West book.

It's your indication that every native american in the world, follows the same restrictions as one ooc? Or even just the OOC's in the spirit west books?

You guys do know there were.... alot of different Native American Tribes right? Painting them all as one is... well.. pretty insulting.

There's also native americans in the books that have no problem with technology. *Shrugs* not every human is even religious.

[Pepsi Jedi]

People forget that CK's do just fine against Demons and what not. They just don't get "added bonuses on TOP of everything else against them"

And.. many demons and devils and what not pick up and use technology.

The CK's default status (Same as anyone else fighting demons and supernatural) Do fine. They also have psionics to help out.

The technology part helps in that most of the world(Megaverse) has moved past magic and have laser rifles and what not. Laser rifles can hit you from like 2000-3000 feet out. Magic.. 50 or 100 feet. Missiles and stuff can reach farther.

And... what we're kinda being too nice to say.. "The CK anti-tech things moves them a step further away from 'Jedi' which is what they were totally cribbed to be in RMB way back when"

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. In addition to points brought up by Pepsi Jedi and eliakon, I'd also like to add that Coake is from the PF world. He's faced demons and dealt with magic long before arriving on Rifts Earth. I actually find it in character that technology might be considered the new, bigger threat. In part because it would be foreign to him (relatively, since tech does find its way to PF as well), but also because it can be fielded by larger numbers with relatively little training. Slay a demon on Rifts Earth and it's probably gone for a few years (at least). Threat removed and Supernatural Beings will (typically) be limited in numbers. Slay a gun-toting maniac on Rifts Earth, and the next guy to pick up the gun can be just as lethal. Threat remains, and there are literally armies armed with the threat in every major nation.

With all that said, I did try to create an alternate to the counter-technology abilities given in SoT4 and RUE. For those interested:

http://www.prysus.com/hth_spirit_knight.htm

Now to address the original topic: I've played a Cyber-Knight who refused the armor grafting as well (it just didn't fit the character's mentality). Though strongly recommended by other Cyber-Knights (for survivability reasons), they're not going to strap down some apprentice and force it on them either. I don't feel they should get anything as compensation either. You can choose not to take it, but don't expect to be rewarded for your choice. Those are my thoughts on the matter at least. Hope they help. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Alrik Vas]

So who are you all trying to convince? I understand the point of view, the setting history, power level of gear vs magic, I see why it was done this way according to you guys.

[eliakon]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

lol where do you get... any of that?

Looking at the Spirit West book?
Lets see. He uses Cybernetics, Energy Weapons, modern vehicles, has an OCC that is only open to Renegades, and his write up has no totem powers...
Yeah, sounds like a Renegade.
The rest follows from the definition of Renegade as per the Spirit West book.

It's your indication that every native american in the world, follows the same restrictions as one ooc? Or even just the OOC's in the spirit west books?

You guys do know there were.... alot of different Native American Tribes right? Painting them all as one is... well.. pretty insulting.

There's also native americans in the books that have no problem with technology. *Shrugs* not every human is even religious.

I know that it is rather a racial stereo type...
...but yeah, according to the official Palladium Canon as printed in Spirit West, all Native American tribes follow the rules for Native Americans as outlined in that book. All of them. They all use the same OCCs, they all use the same totems, they all have the same gods, they all have the same spirits, they all get the same fetishes. Yes its pretty stereotypical. Yes, Palladium took flack over it. Yes you can change it in your game. But the official canon is that this is how Native American society works. Thus yes, to be a Pure One or a Traditionalist you are required to follow the rules set out for those two cultural paths. Otherwise you are required to follow the cultural path of the Renegade. Period. Dot. End of story. ALL Natives who are not Pure Ones or Traditionalists are Renegades. There are no other options it is a trinary system, there is no fourth option. And thus my statement. Pure Ones can not be Cyber-Knights. Traditionalists can not have cybernetics and thus be Cyber-Knights. That sort of, by default means that all (100%) of Native Cyber-Knights with implants are Renegades. Renegades, by definition have abandoned the totems. Renegades by definition have abandoned some of, if not all of the traditional culture as that culture has been defined in the Palladium Universe of Rifts Earth. The rest is simply following the reflexive statements.

<edit> Corrected class note.
Lady Nightrunner demonstrates that it is possible to be a Traditionalist Cyber-Knight. But it also says that because of her Traditionalist views she, wait for it, refused to accept the cyber armor implant. She also had to follow all the other rules. So no energy weapons, no hover cycle, no robot horse, no high tech body armor, no radio...She sort of, well she had to follow the Traditions. That is what it means to be a Traditionalist.
Sir Thorpe does not. He has energy weapons, He uses modern vehicles, he has skills from the prohibited list, uses gear off the prohibited list. He is the text book example of a Renegade

This would pretty conclusively demonstrate that
1) you can refuse to have the implant
and
2) that part of being a Traditionalist involves not accepting cybernetics.

[Killer Cyborg]

From what I recall of Spirit West, eliakon has the right of it.

[Jerell]

On the topic of Cyber Armor, something I've always wondered. After a Cyber Knight gets the armor (male or female), are they capable of having children after that? Just seems like if it was no, that could be a reason some would refuse the armor... I should note, nowhere that I can remember does it say biological functions are altered, but still, it makes me wonder.

[eliakon]

On the topic of Cyber Armor, something I've always wondered. After a Cyber Knight gets the armor (male or female), are they capable of having children after that? Just seems like if it was no, that could be a reason some would refuse the armor... I should note, nowhere that I can remember does it say biological functions are altered, but still, it makes me wonder.

Since it is just a dermal shell that doesn't even cover the entire body...
...there should be no problem with siring children. A female knight though would probably have sever issues if they got pregnant as, unless their armor had bonded with them and become a living part of their body it would interfere with the pregnancy.

[Hotrod]

I always thought of cyber-armor as an "under the skin" armor that isn't immediately obvious to the casual observer, bonded to things like the rib cage, skull, that sort of thing. Now that I think about it, though, that would mean that a player would take SDC damage even if the armor absorbed a shot. So yeah, the armor must be an outside-the-skin or replacing-the-skin thing, which would probably get in the way of close, comfy snuggles and would also, by extension, mean that the sense of touch for any part of the body not covered would be significantly impeded. Any significant body change (weight gain/loss, pregnancy) would also present a problem without the "living armor" hand-wave. The more I think about the second and third-order effects, the more I think normal cyber-armor would suck. Even the living armor seems like it's not worth it. I'd probably pass on it, too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I know that it is rather a racial stereo type...
...but yeah, according to the official Palladium Canon as printed in Spirit West, all Native American tribes follow the rules for Native Americans as outlined in that book. All of them. They all use the same OCCs, they all use the same totems, they all have the same gods, they all have the same spirits, they all get the same fetishes. Yes its pretty stereotypical. Yes, Palladium took flack over it. Yes you can change it in your game. But the official canon is that this is how Native American society works. Thus yes, to be a Pure One or a Traditionalist you are required to follow the rules set out for those two cultural paths. Otherwise you are required to follow the cultural path of the Renegade. Period. Dot. End of story. ALL Natives who are not Pure Ones or Traditionalists are Renegades. There are no other options it is a trinary system, there is no fourth option. And thus my statement. Pure Ones can not be Cyber-Knights. Traditionalists can not have cybernetics and thus be Cyber-Knights. That sort of, by default means that all (100%) of Native Cyber-Knights with implants are Renegades. Renegades, by definition have abandoned the totems. Renegades by definition have abandoned some of, if not all of the traditional culture as that culture has been defined in the Palladium Universe of Rifts Earth. The rest is simply following the reflexive statements.

<edit> Corrected class note.
Lady Nightrunner demonstrates that it is possible to be a Traditionalist Cyber-Knight. But it also says that because of her Traditionalist views she, wait for it, refused to accept the cyber armor implant. She also had to follow all the other rules. So no energy weapons, no hover cycle, no robot horse, no high tech body armor, no radio...She sort of, well she had to follow the Traditions. That is what it means to be a Traditionalist.
Sir Thorpe does not. He has energy weapons, He uses modern vehicles, he has skills from the prohibited list, uses gear off the prohibited list. He is the text book example of a Renegade

This would pretty conclusively demonstrate that
1) you can refuse to have the implant
and
2) that part of being a Traditionalist involves not accepting cybernetics.

To be fair, I consider spirit west one of the worst books in the line. (Not THE worst but in the bottom 5) So it's been a great number of years since I've read it. I think the "Lets make ALL the Indians live in the stone age" Was a large part of it "Except for like these two groups that have robot vehicles and high levels of tech." why? "Well... because we have this art with the robot vehicles and high tech and Indians"

It was horrid.

Was that the one with the laser bow? Ohhh if you wanna start fights, start talking about the laser bow.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I always thought of cyber-armor as an "under the skin" armor that isn't immediately obvious to the casual observer, bonded to things like the rib cage, skull, that sort of thing. Now that I think about it, though, that would mean that a player would take SDC damage even if the armor absorbed a shot. So yeah, the armor must be an outside-the-skin or replacing-the-skin thing, which would probably get in the way of close, comfy snuggles and would also, by extension, mean that the sense of touch for any part of the body not covered would be significantly impeded. Any significant body change (weight gain/loss, pregnancy) would also present a problem without the "living armor" hand-wave. The more I think about the second and third-order effects, the more I think normal cyber-armor would suck. Even the living armor seems like it's not worth it. I'd probably pass on it, too.

Well the description is pretty clear.

Rifts Bionics: (As I don't know where they moved it to and the RUE is like a 'where's waldo' with information) Page 45

"Lightweight armor grafted right to the skin"
"Armor is less than an eighth of an inch thick and form fitted to the contors of the body"
"Only grafted to the chest, shoulders, and thighs"
For two reasons "The body needs to breathe through it's pores, additional armor would impair movement"

This is why it has AR. As to be honest, there's not really that much of it 'on' you. lol

[Jerell]

That's a good catch.

I always thought of cyber-armor as an "under the skin" armor that isn't immediately obvious to the casual observer, bonded to things like the rib cage, skull, that sort of thing. Now that I think about it, though, that would mean that a player would take SDC damage even if the armor absorbed a shot. So yeah, the armor must be an outside-the-skin or replacing-the-skin thing, which would probably get in the way of close, comfy snuggles and would also, by extension, mean that the sense of touch for any part of the body not covered would be significantly impeded. Any significant body change (weight gain/loss, pregnancy) would also present a problem without the "living armor" hand-wave. The more I think about the second and third-order effects, the more I think normal cyber-armor would suck. Even the living armor seems like it's not worth it. I'd probably pass on it, too.

I could totally see that. The normal Cyber Armor really doesn't sound workable to me either. Living maybe, but it would have to change with your body, weight gain, muscle gain, ect. If it (likely) causes loss of sensation that could be a major drawback, then again, it saving your life could be worth it. It's a tough call. However, if it's some kind of living armor, maybe you do keep some kind of sensation. I definitely wouldn't mind understanding exactly how the whole living armor thing is meant to work in certain respects. For grafted armor to actually be an actual viable thing, one would think they must have worked out the issues somehow...

What the cyber knights need to do, is hook up with Lemuria and get some real bio-armor. Problem solved.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

There are Four Types of Native Americans.

Modern Native Americans or Modern Indians
Traditionalists
Pure Ones
Renegades

You're confusing Modern Natives and Renegades, as well.

Modern Natives have largely forsaken the old ways, though they respect Traditionalists, Pure Ones, and Renegades and their beliefs. Some even follow those beliefs in a limited fashion.
Renegades:
(Spirit West, pages 29-30)
- Still hold the beliefs and ways of their people to be sacred
- respect and honor the spirits, and most have taken traditional indian names and totems (though they do not get the bonuses from totems)
- practice conservation, dont hunt for sport, and are mindful of nature.
- are respectful of Traditionalists and Pure Ones
- dont want to worship strange supernatural beings (The Spirits) but dont speak out against them or raise their hands against them
- there are some fanatical Traditionalists and Pure Ones who feel all Renegades have rejected the true way and regard them as traitors/fools. Implication here is that that is pretty rare.

Regardless of belief, Indians stick together. ALL of the Preserves have significant populations of all types of Indians, from Moderns, Pure Ones, Traditionalists, and Renegades.

So, your assertion that Sir Thorpe is somehow an outcast is absurd.

[eliakon]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

There are Four Types of Native Americans.

Modern Native Americans or Modern Indians
Traditionalists
Pure Ones
Renegades

You're confusing Modern Natives and Renegades, as well.

Modern Natives have largely forsaken the old ways, though they respect Traditionalists, Pure Ones, and Renegades and their beliefs. Some even follow those beliefs in a limited fashion.
Renegades:
(Spirit West, pages 29-30)
- Still hold the beliefs and ways of their people to be sacred
- respect and honor the spirits, and most have taken traditional indian names and totems (though they do not get the bonuses from totems)
- practice conservation, dont hunt for sport, and are mindful of nature.
- are respectful of Traditionalists and Pure Ones
- dont want to worship strange supernatural beings (The Spirits) but dont speak out against them or raise their hands against them
- there are some fanatical Traditionalists and Pure Ones who feel all Renegades have rejected the true way and regard them as traitors/fools. Implication here is that that is pretty rare.

Regardless of belief, Indians stick together. ALL of the Preserves have significant populations of all types of Indians, from Moderns, Pure Ones, Traditionalists, and Renegades.

So, your assertion that Sir Thorpe is somehow an outcast is absurd.

I didn't say he was an outcast.
I said that he had rejected the traditions and culture of the tribes and the totems.
Since there is no way to keep the traditions/follow the totems teachings AND fully embrace technology he sort of has to have picked one or the other.
I.e. that whole "Largely forsaken the ways" bit.
Since I don't consider anyone to be able to both "Largely forsake" and "accept and follow" something at the same time as the seem to be rather mutually exclusive.

So what we have here is you can be a Modern or Renegade and get Cyber-Armor, or you can be a Traditionalist and not get Cyber-Armor. But there is no way to be both a Traditionalist and have Cyber-Armor.
And since both Modern and Renegades have rejected large portions of their heritage (including basically the entire spiritual side of their heritage since they can not be shamans or have totems) My basic premise still stands.

I will admit that I forgot the bit about the Moderns being different than the Renegades, I was thinking that they were a sub-group of
Renegades for some reason.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

There are Four Types of Native Americans.

Modern Native Americans or Modern Indians
Traditionalists
Pure Ones
Renegades

You're confusing Modern Natives and Renegades, as well.

Modern Natives have largely forsaken the old ways, though they respect Traditionalists, Pure Ones, and Renegades and their beliefs. Some even follow those beliefs in a limited fashion.
Renegades:
(Spirit West, pages 29-30)
- Still hold the beliefs and ways of their people to be sacred
- respect and honor the spirits, and most have taken traditional indian names and totems (though they do not get the bonuses from totems)
- practice conservation, dont hunt for sport, and are mindful of nature.
- are respectful of Traditionalists and Pure Ones
- dont want to worship strange supernatural beings (The Spirits) but dont speak out against them or raise their hands against them
- there are some fanatical Traditionalists and Pure Ones who feel all Renegades have rejected the true way and regard them as traitors/fools. Implication here is that that is pretty rare.

Regardless of belief, Indians stick together. ALL of the Preserves have significant populations of all types of Indians, from Moderns, Pure Ones, Traditionalists, and Renegades.

So, your assertion that Sir Thorpe is somehow an outcast is absurd.

I didn't say he was an outcast.
I said that he had rejected the traditions and culture of the tribes and the totems.
Since there is no way to keep the traditions/follow the totems teachings AND fully embrace technology he sort of has to have picked one or the other.
I.e. that whole "Largely forsaken the ways" bit.
Since I don't consider anyone to be able to both "Largely forsake" and "accept and follow" something at the same time as the seem to be rather mutually exclusive.

So what we have here is you can be a Modern or Renegade and get Cyber-Armor, or you can be a Traditionalist and not get Cyber-Armor. But there is no way to be both a Traditionalist and have Cyber-Armor.
And since both Modern and Renegades have rejected large portions of their heritage (including basically the entire spiritual side of their heritage since they can not be shamans or have totems) My basic premise still stands.

I will admit that I forgot the bit about the Moderns being different than the Renegades, I was thinking that they were a sub-group of
Renegades for some reason.

Well it's not hard to look up. What you said was

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

So you did say he was 1) A Renegade... Which would seem to be incorrect.
2) You said he abandoned his people, where in if there's modern natives, that would seem to be incorrect
3) Abandoned his culture. But.. if there's modern natives, then he's not abandoned his culture either. They might not worship the same people but that's like saying that ... An American has abandoned his culture because he's not Christian. He may have chosen not to follow a faith but still be very much a member of and be a part of the culture.
4) His totem. Well. If he's not religious, then it wouldn't be a big deal.

You did imply that he was an outcast. You didn't say the word but the sentence "He's also a renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture and his totem" Would seem to define him as an outcast. Which is defined by a person that's rejected by a society or social group.

As for "There's no way to keep tradition And embrace technology you have to pick one or another... You do realize that Native Americans... have power, and cars, and cell phones and stuff... now... yes? They're not living in the stone age.

And you say one can't largely forsake, and accept and follow something at the same time... ...... ... really? 99.9% of the religious people I know do this. They largely forsake the rules, be they commandments or what have you, and yet 'accept' them as rules and claim to follow them most every day.

Gets real fun when some religious person is yapping at you about homosexuality or something and you fire back with touching pigs skin, or wearing clothes made of two different cloths or working on sunday, or selling their daughters into slavery. Gets them right upset. But it seems to be very very much a way of life to the religious crowd. People that are devout Jews, often break the rules and eat bacon. I've a Hindu friend that loves cheese burgers.

So in the end, we have two groups of native Americans that seem to be ok with Cyber armor and one group that's not. All three groups are members of the native american tribes (Even in rifts) and part of their society. Yes?

So.. it's hardly a default that Native American Cyberknights can't have cyber armor. If 2/3 of them can?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

To be fair... 2 out of 4. Pure ones and Traditionalists are slightly different, though they believe the samet hings. Pure Ones are the descendents of the natives who were actually taken off of earth.

But Renegades and Modern's, yes would be fine with Cyber Armor.

Thorpe strikes me as a Renegade - still very respectful of his culture, but following a slightly different path. Renegades, as described, are basically Indians who like/are in tune with their native roots but ALSO think there's no reason not to use technology. Moderns seem more like... "im a human that uses technology of native descent".

Still, at the end of the day, the Preserves are made up of all four types living in relative harmony. None of them - not even Moderns, are truly outcasts.

[eliakon]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

There are Four Types of Native Americans.

Modern Native Americans or Modern Indians
Traditionalists
Pure Ones
Renegades

You're confusing Modern Natives and Renegades, as well.

Modern Natives have largely forsaken the old ways, though they respect Traditionalists, Pure Ones, and Renegades and their beliefs. Some even follow those beliefs in a limited fashion.
Renegades:
(Spirit West, pages 29-30)
- Still hold the beliefs and ways of their people to be sacred
- respect and honor the spirits, and most have taken traditional indian names and totems (though they do not get the bonuses from totems)
- practice conservation, dont hunt for sport, and are mindful of nature.
- are respectful of Traditionalists and Pure Ones
- dont want to worship strange supernatural beings (The Spirits) but dont speak out against them or raise their hands against them
- there are some fanatical Traditionalists and Pure Ones who feel all Renegades have rejected the true way and regard them as traitors/fools. Implication here is that that is pretty rare.

Regardless of belief, Indians stick together. ALL of the Preserves have significant populations of all types of Indians, from Moderns, Pure Ones, Traditionalists, and Renegades.

So, your assertion that Sir Thorpe is somehow an outcast is absurd.

I didn't say he was an outcast.
I said that he had rejected the traditions and culture of the tribes and the totems.
Since there is no way to keep the traditions/follow the totems teachings AND fully embrace technology he sort of has to have picked one or the other.
I.e. that whole "Largely forsaken the ways" bit.
Since I don't consider anyone to be able to both "Largely forsake" and "accept and follow" something at the same time as the seem to be rather mutually exclusive.

So what we have here is you can be a Modern or Renegade and get Cyber-Armor, or you can be a Traditionalist and not get Cyber-Armor. But there is no way to be both a Traditionalist and have Cyber-Armor.
And since both Modern and Renegades have rejected large portions of their heritage (including basically the entire spiritual side of their heritage since they can not be shamans or have totems) My basic premise still stands.

I will admit that I forgot the bit about the Moderns being different than the Renegades, I was thinking that they were a sub-group of
Renegades for some reason.

Well it's not hard to look up. What you said was

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

So you did say he was 1) A Renegade... Which would seem to be incorrect.
2) You said he abandoned his people, where in if there's modern natives, that would seem to be incorrect
3) Abandoned his culture. But.. if there's modern natives, then he's not abandoned his culture either. They might not worship the same people but that's like saying that ... An American has abandoned his culture because he's not Christian. He may have chosen not to follow a faith but still be very much a member of and be a part of the culture.
4) His totem. Well. If he's not religious, then it wouldn't be a big deal.

You did imply that he was an outcast. You didn't say the word but the sentence "He's also a renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture and his totem" Would seem to define him as an outcast. Which is defined by a person that's rejected by a society or social group.

Nope. I said he abandoned. If you want to read that as outcast then that's your business but that isn't what I wrote, so really I have no idea why I should have to defend myself against something I never said just because you want to make up a point to argue.

As for "There's no way to keep tradition And embrace technology you have to pick one or another... You do realize that Native Americans... have power, and cars, and cell phones and stuff... now... yes? They're not living in the stone age.

I was not aware that we were living in the Palladium Universe. Since I said that this applied to the culture rules as described in the books and not what real life tribes say this is less than ireleivent it is actively trying to, once again, take what I never said, and use it to argue that my position is wrong. If you are going to argue me, have the respect to argue what I actually said please.

And you say one can't largely forsake, and accept and follow something at the same time... ...... ... really? 99.9% of the religious people I know do this. They largely forsake the rules, be they commandments or what have you, and yet 'accept' them as rules and claim to follow them most every day.

Gets real fun when some religious person is yapping at you about homosexuality or something and you fire back with touching pigs skin, or wearing clothes made of two different cloths or working on sunday, or selling their daughters into slavery. Gets them right upset. But it seems to be very very much a way of life to the religious crowd. People that are devout Jews, often break the rules and eat bacon. I've a Hindu friend that loves cheese burgers.

Thank you. You just described Renegades and Moderns. They have rejected their actual culture for the parts of the culture they like.
They are not Traditionalists or Pure Ones. Traditionalists and Pure Ones are not the modern American "Christians", they are groups like the Ultra Orthodox Jews who do still follow every last religions law.

So in the end, we have two groups of native Americans that seem to be ok with Cyber armor and one group that's not. All three groups are members of the native american tribes (Even in rifts) and part of their society. Yes?

No.
2 of the 4 say no Cyber Armor.
Pure Ones: No Cybernetics
Traditionalists: No Cybernetics
Renegades: Can have Cybernetics
Modern: Can have Cybernetics

And once again I said culture (which I then defined when ask as necessitating the full religious and spiritual beliefs) not their society.
And yes, there is a difference. Anyone can be a member of their society, heck they have D-bees living among them. But they are not part of their culture.

So.. it's hardly a default that Native American Cyberknights can't have cyber armor. If 2/3 of them can?

The fact is that 100% of Traditionalist Cyber-Knights do reject the armor.
The fact is that to accept cybernetics requires you to reject the Spirits, their explicit non-technological path, and your ability to spiritually link with the Spirits and thus become either a Renegade or a Modern.
The fact is that Thorpe is not a Pure one or Traditionalist.

Now if you want to quibble on how many Native Americans are which path, or if my original statement of "if your a Native American" that you "may have religious or philosophical differences with using high technology" was too broad, that's fine. But the fact is that two out of the four kinds of Native American do have "Religious or Philosophical differences with using high technology" and thus if you are a Native American you might have those too.

Now if you can find where I said that all of them had those qualms I would be interested. Especially since right now we have exactly 2 Native American Cyber-Knights that I know of, and one rejected technology on cultural grounds and one rejected the culture on technological grounds.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I've always played it that unless the char is a borg CC the char does not have to get implants or replacement parts.

With The Headhunter class I've had them with all their original parts with the cybernetic limb as part of their stuff. Ether as loot or somehow acquired.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

There are Four Types of Native Americans.

Modern Native Americans or Modern Indians
Traditionalists
Pure Ones
Renegades

You're confusing Modern Natives and Renegades, as well.

Modern Natives have largely forsaken the old ways, though they respect Traditionalists, Pure Ones, and Renegades and their beliefs. Some even follow those beliefs in a limited fashion.
Renegades:
(Spirit West, pages 29-30)
- Still hold the beliefs and ways of their people to be sacred
- respect and honor the spirits, and most have taken traditional indian names and totems (though they do not get the bonuses from totems)
- practice conservation, dont hunt for sport, and are mindful of nature.
- are respectful of Traditionalists and Pure Ones
- dont want to worship strange supernatural beings (The Spirits) but dont speak out against them or raise their hands against them
- there are some fanatical Traditionalists and Pure Ones who feel all Renegades have rejected the true way and regard them as traitors/fools. Implication here is that that is pretty rare.

Regardless of belief, Indians stick together. ALL of the Preserves have significant populations of all types of Indians, from Moderns, Pure Ones, Traditionalists, and Renegades.

So, your assertion that Sir Thorpe is somehow an outcast is absurd.

I didn't say he was an outcast.
I said that he had rejected the traditions and culture of the tribes and the totems.
Since there is no way to keep the traditions/follow the totems teachings AND fully embrace technology he sort of has to have picked one or the other.
I.e. that whole "Largely forsaken the ways" bit.
Since I don't consider anyone to be able to both "Largely forsake" and "accept and follow" something at the same time as the seem to be rather mutually exclusive.

So what we have here is you can be a Modern or Renegade and get Cyber-Armor, or you can be a Traditionalist and not get Cyber-Armor. But there is no way to be both a Traditionalist and have Cyber-Armor.
And since both Modern and Renegades have rejected large portions of their heritage (including basically the entire spiritual side of their heritage since they can not be shamans or have totems) My basic premise still stands.

I will admit that I forgot the bit about the Moderns being different than the Renegades, I was thinking that they were a sub-group of
Renegades for some reason.

Well it's not hard to look up. What you said was

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

So you did say he was 1) A Renegade... Which would seem to be incorrect.
2) You said he abandoned his people, where in if there's modern natives, that would seem to be incorrect
3) Abandoned his culture. But.. if there's modern natives, then he's not abandoned his culture either. They might not worship the same people but that's like saying that ... An American has abandoned his culture because he's not Christian. He may have chosen not to follow a faith but still be very much a member of and be a part of the culture.
4) His totem. Well. If he's not religious, then it wouldn't be a big deal.

You did imply that he was an outcast. You didn't say the word but the sentence "He's also a renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture and his totem" Would seem to define him as an outcast. Which is defined by a person that's rejected by a society or social group.

Nope. I said he abandoned. [/quote]

But he hasn't If both Moderns and Renegades can have cyber armor, then by aspect of having it isn't abandoning the culture. You can take your culture with you even if you dont live in it currently.

If you want to read that as outcast then that's your business but that isn't what I wrote,

It is what you've wrote. I showed you. You can call it something else if you like but the words are there. You're trying to quibble semantics but it's there.

so really I have no idea why I should have to defend myself against something I never said just because you want to make up a point to argue.

But you did say it. I provided the quote. It's right up there in the thread to read.

As for "There's no way to keep tradition And embrace technology you have to pick one or another... You do realize that Native Americans... have power, and cars, and cell phones and stuff... now... yes? They're not living in the stone age.

I was not aware that we were living in the Palladium Universe.

I wasn't aware that Native Americans were an alien creature created by kevin and the Palladium writers.

Since I said that this applied to the culture rules as described in the books

Did you? Or did you just say he's a renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture and his totem? *Looks back at the quote* Maybe you should re-read what you've written.

and not what real life tribes say this is less than ireleivent it is actively trying to, once again, take what I never said,

Actually no.. now you're trying to claim that you DID say something that you didn't. You may have implied it. sure. That's likely what you 'meant', but if you're going to quibble. No. You did NOT actually say that.

and use it to argue that my position is wrong. If you are going to argue me, have the respect to argue what I actually said please.

Well that's the thing. You didn't actually say, what you're now claiming you said.

And you say one can't largely forsake, and accept and follow something at the same time... ...... ... really? 99.9% of the religious people I know do this. They largely forsake the rules, be they commandments or what have you, and yet 'accept' them as rules and claim to follow them most every day.

Gets real fun when some religious person is yapping at you about homosexuality or something and you fire back with touching pigs skin, or wearing clothes made of two different cloths or working on sunday, or selling their daughters into slavery. Gets them right upset. But it seems to be very very much a way of life to the religious crowd. People that are devout Jews, often break the rules and eat bacon. I've a Hindu friend that loves cheese burgers.

Thank you. You just described Renegades and Moderns. They have rejected their actual culture for the parts of the culture they like.

Not at all. I know very very VERY few people that follow literally the bible or any religious book. Those that do are looked at as insane. Can you imagine someone killing a family member for pulling a shift at walmart on sunday? Or one trying to sell their daughter into slavery? Of course not. But that doesn't mean they've 'rejected their actual culture' any claims to such are clearly absurd. The actual culture is what people actually do and how they actually live, which is often far far different than the religious rules say. Breaking a religious rule doesn't mean you've abandoned your culture. Even Priests and Monks sin. We all (As humans) Pick and choose which aspects we follow and which we don't. SOME Hindu's don't eat beef. Some chow down on cheeseburgers. Doesn't mean that the cheeseburger eating guy has rejected his culture. Just means he likes cheeseburgers and isn't an overliteral strict adherant to -that- religious rule. he might keep the rest of the religious rules just fine.

They are not Traditionalists or Pure Ones. Traditionalists and Pure Ones are not the modern American "Christians", they are groups like the Ultra Orthodox Jews who do still follow every last religions law.

They're humans, and thus by default imperfect. It's very unlikely that they do follow 'Every last religious law' even ultra orthodox jews don't fllow 'every last religious law". Just more than the common person of that faith. I'm not knockng them. It's a hard life, but lets not act like they're robots and or infalliable and all 100% the same. The birth rates of ultra orthodox jews out side of marriage might be lower, but it still exists. You know?

So in the end, we have two groups of native Americans that seem to be ok with Cyber armor and one group that's not. All three groups are members of the native american tribes (Even in rifts) and part of their society. Yes?

No.
2 of the 4 say no Cyber Armor.
Pure Ones: No Cybernetics
Traditionalists: No Cybernetics
Renegades: Can have Cybernetics
Modern: Can have Cybernetics

Ok. Till the post before this we were talking about three groups. Now we're talking about four.

Of four, 50% of them allow it. Then I'd say that it's culturally allowed if fully half the culture is down with it.

And once again I said culture (which I then defined when ask as necessitating the full religious and spiritual beliefs) not their society.

Just because you're making up different definitions for culture doesn't make it hold true. Culture is far more than FULL RELIGIOUS AND SPIRITUAL Beliefs. That's 'Religion' which is one of many aspects of a culture. Nice try, to move the goal posts though.

And yes, there is a difference. Anyone can be a member of their society, heck they have D-bees living among them. But they are not part of their culture.

There's also a massive difference between "Culture' and "Religion". In this case, the defintion of culture we're using currently in the debate would be "Culture: the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group." or " Anthropology. the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another. " Both of which CAN factor Religion as part of said definition, "Beliefs' or "Ways of living" but religion is not in any way the soul defining characteristic of cultures, anywhere.

So.. it's hardly a default that Native American Cyberknights can't have cyber armor. If 2/3 of them can?

The fact is that 100% of Traditionalist Cyber-Knights do reject the armor.

Can you please cite a page where it says this? I'm honestly asking. Or a page where it says ---100%--- will reject anying? Maybe it's my Jedi training but only the Sith deal in absolutes. I'd like to see the reference that says it's that strong an aversion, and pertaining to CK's.

The fact is that to accept cybernetics requires you to reject the Spirits, their explicit non-technological path, and your ability to spiritually link with the Spirits and thus become either a Renegade or a Modern.

Debatable as well. Cyber armor, while certinly having 'cyber' in the name.. isn't actually powered or doing anything. It's a few strips of MDC metal grafted to the skin. By this logic, having.. Pins or plates to set a bone would make you reject the spirits?

It's been along time and it -was- a really crappy book, so if you could again please give me the page number where this is indicated to save me having to read more of that horrible thing than nessisary, I'd appreciate it.

The fact is that Thorpe is not a Pure one or Traditionalist.

Which was never in question. What was said that he had abandoned his people (Not needed if you can be a modern or renegade.) his culture (Clearly not needed if moderns and renegades can get cyber stuff) and his totem. *Shrugs* if he's not a pure one or Traditionalist, he wouldn't have had a totem to reject. right?

Now if you want to quibble on how many Native Americans are which path, or if my original statement of "if your a Native American" that you "may have religious or philosophical differences with using high technology" was too broad, that's fine.

Is it a quibble, when fully 50% of the categories clearly.. .don't do as you've said? i mean if it was 3 or 4%.. ok that's a small portion of society. Even if it was 10% or less you could argue that it was some minor subset.. but half? That doesn't seem a quibble. That seems that your sweeping statement is wrong in at least two if not more points, thus, invalid.

But the fact is that two out of the four kinds

Fully half. Half of them.

of Native American do have "Religious or Philosophical differences with using high technology" and thus if you are a Native American you might have those too.

Indeed. The operative word being MIGHT. you MIGHT have those too. You just as likely, might not! That's the cool thing about it being 50/50. They're just as likely as not to have that objection. And, there's exceptions to most every rule. Not trying to pick fights and what not but there's homosexual preachers and clergy and what not now. Something specificly outlawed (For the most part) in scripture, but priests can be homosexual in some faiths.

This is an important aspect, in pointing out you could be a traditionalist or pure one. Hold those beliefs, and yet, have an exception. "i'm a pure one. I follow the faith, bla bla bla, but I'm a Cyber knight. So I have cyber armor. I know that usually my fath forbids such things, but it's an innate part of my order and it is becoming 'part' of me, thus not out side the realm of -my- personal aspects of faith".

Religion is a construct of humans and thus imperfect, very seldom are the rules of religion 100%, if for no other reason than 1) They were made by humans and 2) Humans are hypocrites of a drastic scale. I mean the Church of England was created so a king could get a divorce to get a lil strange. The rules bend and break when ever people feel like. Theyr'e not laws of the universe.

Now if you can find where I said that all of them had those qualms I would be interested. Especially since right now we have exactly 2 Native American Cyber-Knights that I know of, and one rejected technology on cultural grounds and one rejected the culture on technological grounds.

I've already quoted what you said.

I don't agree that 'One has rejected the culture'. If fully 50% of the culture is a-ok with technology". That's a claim that you're making that, lets be honest, not only is NOT supported by the books but, if fully 50% of said culture is ok with it (Technology) then is directly counter point to your claims.

Your claim could only be true, if you actually ignore 50% of said culture you're saying is being rejected. Which seems silly. it's akin to rejecting all women just because you don't want them in the debate.. as they make up half of our culture.

[guardiandashi]

pepsi

nitpick
Cyber armor, while certainly having 'cyber' in the name.. isn't actually powered or doing anything. It's a few strips of MDC metal grafted to the skin. By this logic, having.. Pins or plates to set a bone would make you reject the spirits?

It may be my familiarity with other game settings (such as shadowrun) but I think cyberarmor is a little more than a few strips of MDC alloy plating.

Maybe its just me, but I always considered cyber armor to essentially come in "grades" like some systems levels.

low level cyber armor in that interpretation would be essentially MDC cloth implanted just under the skin and or replacing the skin possibly regrowing new skin on a mdc cloth matrix. its obviously a lot better than nothing but would likely only provide single digit MDC protection (similar to MDC cloth body armor)

an intermediate level would likely be "slightly reinforced" versions of the low level stuff. which would include light plating around the vitals. such as armor grafted to the spine (think the armor plating Klingons in star trek wear on their backs) but implanted rather than clothing, reinforcements to the rib cage and the skull and similar.

at some of the highest levels it would be difficult to impossible to tell cyber armor and borg upgrades apart visually, with the main difference being that medical personnel and or mechanics could tell (and a borg is going to have MUCH heavier armor because they are not limited by the organic strength limits. )

[Blue_Lion]

The most, if not second most famous Cyberknight... is a Native American and he's chill with the cyber armor.

He also is a Renegade who has abandoned his people, his culture, and his totem...
For those Native American's who don't want to do that the armor is a no go.

lol where do you get... any of that?

iirc don't the NA's get all pissy about using technology/ways and not (ie only) their 'traditional' ways/tech? That's my memory of the write up at least...

Yes and no, there are diffrent types of NA tribes traditional and tech. Traditional favor traditional powers over white mans ways and tech tribes favor samas and other high tech goodies. Some one from a traditional tribe would be less likely to be a cyber knight instead of one of the traditional occs. Tech tribes would be more likely to be the ones to train cyber knights.

[ShadowLogan]

Cyber armor, while certainly having 'cyber' in the name.. isn't actually powered or doing anything. It's a few strips of MDC metal grafted to the skin.

I agree the name is somewhat misleading given the description.

low level cyber armor in that interpretation would be essentially MDC cloth implanted just under the skin and or replacing the skin possibly regrowing new skin on a mdc cloth matrix. its obviously a lot better than nothing but would likely only provide single digit MDC protection (similar to MDC cloth body armor)

This is not consistent with the description of Cyber Armor though, which has been given previously. The armor is described as going on top of the skin, not under it and adds another 20lbs to weight.

Though my take on the Cyber Armor system is that the system really is more like a series of specially designed snap/hook attachments that are implanted (like on pg37 of the Bionics SB), and the armor attaches to them for ease of maintenance. In this way you can more easily replace damaged sections of the armor (in essence this operates similar to Bionic Body Armor).

Cyber Knight Cyber Armor as of RUE/SoT is a TW invention, so it is likely a TW device (and likely the spell chain involved is what allows it to become "living" with all aspects of that).

[Killer Cyborg]

pepsi

nitpick
Cyber armor, while certainly having 'cyber' in the name.. isn't actually powered or doing anything. It's a few strips of MDC metal grafted to the skin. By this logic, having.. Pins or plates to set a bone would make you reject the spirits?

"Cyber" doesn't mean "requires a power source."
It's more about the merging of living tissue and mechanical or electronic components. Whether or not cyber-armor technically qualifies as cybernetic might depend on how complicated it is. If it's a high-tech enough material to count as a "machine" of some kind, or if the plates overlap or interact in an intricate enough way, or if they're designed on a micro-level to bend and move with the human body, then it might count as cybernetic.