How does an SDC creature eat a Mega-Damage critter?

[Procopius]

Presumably after death, but I guess there's no reason someone couldn't be ambitious about it and start sooner.

The question came to me while reading Madhaven -- the mutants (who're MDC beasties) eat the "soft, greasy, and fatty meat" of the also-MDC Giant Ruin Worms.

Would an SDC human, like, say, Anthony Bourdain or possibly Guy Fieri, whisked into the postapocalyptic ruins of NYC by a rift, be able to sup upon a dead worm? Does the death of a supernatural creature cause it to cease being MDC? I assume not, since you can make armor from some of 'em.

Can SDC teeth and digestive juices even make a dent in a dead MDC creature, or would it need to be slow-cooked in an mega-damage crockpot, or softened up with MD weapons?

My players may be dealing with some MD dinos soon, so my question isn't entirely academic.

[ShadowLogan]

Rifts (WB20) Canada has a Fury Beatle (MDC critter) Ranch that sells the meat, though IIRC for maximum attractiveness it has to be pre-pared.

Rifts (WB26) Dinosaur Swamp IIRC has humans hunting MDC dinos for food and other raw materials.

So yes, MDC critters can be a source of food in general for SDC critters.

[Killer Cyborg]

The only what that it makes sense to me for MDC flesh to be edible by SDC creatures is if something renders it into SDC flesh.
Some magic/supernatural critters might turn into SDC at the moment of death, their magic/supernatural nature gone along with their life.

Otherwise, I'd say that there'd have to be one hell of a tenderization process, enough so that the flesh is no longer Mega-Damage.
Heck, more than that even, because taking a bite of meat that has 100+ SDC would take a LONG time to chew.

On the other hand, I'd think that some nutrients & calories might be able to be gained by other means than direct consumption.
Stick a chunk of untenderized dino-meat in a crockpot with some greens, and cook it all down. The meat will still be inedible, but the cooking process should allow some stuff to leak out of the meat into the other food.

[ShadowLogan]

Well we know that you can use MDC critters as a food source in canon, there are at least two examples though neither get into the specifics.

It might also be worth considering that MDC critters may be not 100% MDC. Externally they might have MDC hides, and maybe even some nternally (like Bones), but on the inside you've also got softer SDC material (with SN attributes being a bough "power" like HU2E's mutant animal psionics). At least that is my take on how MDC critters can be a food source for SDC critters given there are real world equivalents in concept I think.

[guardiandashi]

Well we know that you can use MDC critters as a food source in canon, there are at least two examples though neither get into the specifics.

It might also be worth considering that MDC critters may be not 100% MDC. Externally they might have MDC hides, and maybe even some nternally (like Bones), but on the inside you've also got softer SDC material (with SN attributes being a bough "power" like HU2E's mutant animal psionics). At least that is my take on how MDC critters can be a food source for SDC critters given there are real world equivalents in concept I think.

in some cases the MDC critter may not "really" be MDC similar to the titan juicers. IE they are sdc critters but have so much sdc that normal sdc weapons don't really stand a chance of taking them down in a realistic timeframe.

lets take the example of a dimo like a T-rex if we said that for a certain assumption IE 1 inch of flesh over a bone is ~1 sdc and it has 2 feet of flesh on a certain part of the body and that is for ~1 square foot... it starts to add up pretty fast.

[glitterboy2098]

historically, the #1 method most cultures came up with to tenderize overly tough meat, prior to knowledge of advanced chemistry and industry to support same, was to hang the meat out to 'age' a few days in a cool place, comparable to the modern practice of "Dry aging" (which is just a more accessible and somewhat more hygienic version of the practice)
this can be combined with preservative methods like salt-curing and/or smoking as well to ensure the result doesn't rot.
or you could use processes like marinades in alcohol, enzymes, or other chemical processes to soften it up. though these might take longer than an SDC cut might using the same process.
likewise Brining it in salt water.
or perhaps a mix of several.

[rem1093]

what if only the skin is MDC not the meat under it. so once you get thought the skin the rest is all SDC.

[glitterboy2098]

some of the early MDC critters seem to have been written under that idea, like the Fury-beetle. but it doesn't really work any more, because such a scheme would require actual armored scales/chitin/etc for the non-supernatural stuff. and we've long had "non-armored" MDC critters who's skin is like that of SDC stuff, yet the whole animal is tougher. not to mention the fact it has long been confirmed that MDC critters have MDC bones as well.

so no, it most likely is that MDC living things are MDC throughout, and their flesh is tougher than SDC animal flesh.

[taalismn]

This is why the Paladin Steel Heavy Machinery and Kitchenware divisions overlap; we're the makers of the only home hydraulic meat hammer-press with tenderizer function. Available with the Quick-Clean counter coating. Though, note that buying one, you have to register it with the your local OSHA office and police department.

[The Beast]

There's a Rifter issue on this very subject, though I don't remember what issue.

[taalismn]

There's a Rifter issue on this very subject, though I don't remember what issue.

#42...."Mega-Steel Chef" by Erin Lindsey.
Covers Brining(or chemical marinade), Smoking, Long Cooking, or straight-out Megadamage Heat to soften MDC flesh for eating.

[mercedogre]

I found this on a fan-site long ago:

Mega Pepper

Since before the coming of the Rifts, people joked that a Cajun would eat anything. The Wilderness Scouts of the Dinosaur Swamp take this practice very serious. If they kill a supernatural monster, a mundane animal, or hell, even one of their companions who gets out of hand; it's a damn good bet they're going to eat them. For years more refined Wilderness Scouts laughed as these "backwoods" Scouts who claimed to regularly eat and enjoy MDC creatures. Of course they all thought it was the tall tales of a bunch of drunk Yokels. However the Wilderness Scouts in The Dinosaur Swamps have found an amazing natural product that breaks down the mega structure in MDC tissue. It comes from the seeds of a mutated pepper found only in the Dinosaur Swamps. In all respects it looks like a purple two foot long jalapeño pepper. After about 48 hours of soaking in the sauce made from the Mega-Pepper, the MDC meat is changed into an SDC meat that tastes exactly the same, thus making it edible for swamp residents. A Wilderness Scout raised in the Dinosaur Swamps is never found without a bottle of Mega-Pepper sauce, or at least a pouch full of its seeds.
Mega-Pepper
A Mega-Pepper plant consists of 3D6 vines that are about 50 feet long. The vines wrap around trees, and grow in tangles along the ground. The actual peppers are 2 feet long on average and are evenly spaced across the vines; an average plant yields about 40 peppers. They have a unique effect on living/organic MDC matter, in which it slowly breaks down the structure of the matter until it becomes SDC, making it perfect for cooking! If SDC meat is soaked in the pepper sauce it will break it down as well until the meat is nothing but a gooey meaty jelly. The peppers will not harm an MDC or SDC creature if it touches them (the contact is not nearly long enough, and it's the seeds that carry most of the chemical). Also it will not harm them if they ingest the peppers; the digestive system breaks it down too quick to do any damage, however it will give MDC beings severe gas problems for about 24 hours and any poor bastard that is an SDC being will be confined to the nearest bathroom for 24 hours and will have severe gas for the next 24.
The sauce that is used by wilderness scouts is made up primarily of Mega-Peppers, and most scouts in the Dinosaur Swamp know how to make Mega-Pepper sauce, so there are hundreds of different varieties out there: they can be sour, sweet, extra spicy, or anywhere in-between, but in any case it will still have a nice spicy kick in its aftertaste. Many MDC creatures enjoy eating the peppers by themselves, or pickled. They have become the latest food rage across Atlantis and a single pepper can go for as high as 100 credits.

[glitterboy2098]

There's a Rifter issue on this very subject, though I don't remember what issue.

#42...."Mega-Steel Chef" by Erin Lindsey.
Covers Brining(or chemical marinade), Smoking, Long Cooking, or straight-out Megadamage Heat to soften MDC flesh for eating.

honestly i wish this article had been Official, because it addresses so many of the issues with MDC vs SDC ecology as well (like why MDC predators haven't entirely wiped out the SDC ecology)
it had its flaws but with a few minor tweaks, it would work well for fixing such issues in the main game.

[Alrik Vas]

what if only the skin is MDC not the meat under it. so once you get thought the skin the rest is all SDC.

It's a nice thought...but then high explosive would be just as deadly to MDC creatures as it is to SDC. Shockwaves are deadly.

[Procopius]

There's a Rifter issue on this very subject, though I don't remember what issue.

#42...."Mega-Steel Chef" by Erin Lindsey.
Covers Brining(or chemical marinade), Smoking, Long Cooking, or straight-out Megadamage Heat to soften MDC flesh for eating.

There's a Rifter issue on this very subject, though I don't remember what issue.

#42...."Mega-Steel Chef" by Erin Lindsey.
Covers Brining(or chemical marinade), Smoking, Long Cooking, or straight-out Megadamage Heat to soften MDC flesh for eating.

honestly i wish this article had been Official, because it addresses so many of the issues with MDC vs SDC ecology as well (like why MDC predators haven't entirely wiped out the SDC ecology)
it had its flaws but with a few minor tweaks, it would work well for fixing such issues in the main game.

Nice! That sounds like one to get, the SDC/MDC bifurcation in a lot of Rifts is something I invest probably too much of my limited thinking time in.

what if only the skin is MDC not the meat under it. so once you get thought the skin the rest is all SDC.

It's a nice thought...but then high explosive would be just as deadly to MDC creatures as it is to SDC. Shockwaves are deadly.

I had the same thought, but I suppose that if MDC body armor can stop people being pulped into a delicious mole sauce by nearby MDC explosions (and some of it quite thin, like the Triax MDC suits), then MDC skin might be able to prevent the shockwave from disrupting a T-Rex's delicious guts.

[taalismn]

[
I had the same thought, but I suppose that if MDC body armor can stop people being pulped into a delicious mole sauce by nearby MDC explosions (and some of it quite thin, like the Triax MDC suits), then MDC skin might be able to prevent the shockwave from disrupting a T-Rex's delicious guts.

That's like the old joke about the customer worrying about a leather jacket holding together, and the salesman snapping 'Of course it will! It held a COW together!!!"

[Alrik Vas]

I have explosives deal damage through armor, just usually SDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

I found this on a fan-site long ago:

Mega Pepper

Somebody always brings that thing up.

[Blue_Lion]

I have explosives deal damage through armor, just usually SDC.

well there is the optional bleed through rules from unrevissed conversion book 1.

[Todd Yoho]

This is one of those things where I'm like, "your overthinking is getting in the way of the fun." M.D.C. is a mechanic for tracking damage for the purpose of conflict resolution. If you are applying it to characters consumption of food, you're running a game I wouldn't want to play. Do you require characters to roll damage to "S.D.C. food" when they eat it? Should they roll to hit? What is the A.R. of a well-done steak verses the A.R. of a tomato sandwich?

This topic has always been bait for rules lawyers ad absurd, and should be treated as such.

[Killer Cyborg]

This is one of those things where I'm like, "your overthinking is getting in the way of the fun." M.D.C. is a mechanic for tracking damage for the purpose of conflict resolution. If you are applying it to characters consumption of food, you're running a game I wouldn't want to play. Do you require characters to roll damage to "S.D.C. food" when they eat it? Should they roll to hit? What is the A.R. of a well-done steak verses the A.R. of a tomato sandwich?

This topic has always been bait for rules lawyers ad absurd, and should be treated as such.

What would be absurd is assuming that humans can chew through flesh that shrugs off TNT.

[taalismn]

This is one of those things where I'm like, "your overthinking is getting in the way of the fun." M.D.C. is a mechanic for tracking damage for the purpose of conflict resolution. If you are applying it to characters consumption of food, you're running a game I wouldn't want to play. Do you require characters to roll damage to "S.D.C. food" when they eat it? Should they roll to hit? What is the A.R. of a well-done steak verses the A.R. of a tomato sandwich?
.

Phrased like that, a fast food stop sounds like epic combat....
"Well, you fumbled all your 'to strike' rolls on your pancake stack....looks like you're going hungry tonight."
"Heh....need somebody to chew your food for you, newbie?"

[eliakon]

This is one of those things where I'm like, "your overthinking is getting in the way of the fun." M.D.C. is a mechanic for tracking damage for the purpose of conflict resolution. If you are applying it to characters consumption of food, you're running a game I wouldn't want to play. Do you require characters to roll damage to "S.D.C. food" when they eat it? Should they roll to hit? What is the A.R. of a well-done steak verses the A.R. of a tomato sandwich?

This topic has always been bait for rules lawyers ad absurd, and should be treated as such.

What would be absurd is assuming that humans can chew through flesh that shrugs off TNT.

Only if one accepts the underlying premise that all flesh on all MDC creatures is equally durable.
Which since we have canon statements that some MDC creatures are eaten, seems to be a mistake.

If we throw out that unsupported premise then we get back to a (IMHO) much more reasonable "Most things that are MDC are MDC because that is an easier way to conceptualize damage and not because the actual game mechanics exist in universe"
This allows for things that are MDC because they have armored hides, things that are MDC because they are just really tough, things that are MDC because they are supernatural... All sorts of different MDC beings. It gets us away from the absurd "All things that are MDC are MDC because they are this way, even though that is never actually stated in any book, and even though that explanation makes no sense. And because of this nonsensical fanon explanation the following happens, even though this violates what is in the books"

First case in point. A cyborg is, for game statistical purposes, an MDC being. This does not mean that some how all the fleshy bits are now super-duper tough and can not be eaten or harmed by 'normal' processes. It just means that for game stat purposes it is treated a certain way.

Second case in point would be divisibility. If a 25 ton lizard has 80 MDC, including its armored scaly hide (which can be used to make MDC armor) then it does not make any sense that a 6oz cut of said meat should have even 1 MDC...

[Procopius]

This is one of those things where I'm like, "your overthinking is getting in the way of the fun." M.D.C. is a mechanic for tracking damage for the purpose of conflict resolution. If you are applying it to characters consumption of food, you're running a game I wouldn't want to play. Do you require characters to roll damage to "S.D.C. food" when they eat it? Should they roll to hit? What is the A.R. of a well-done steak verses the A.R. of a tomato sandwich?

This topic has always been bait for rules lawyers ad absurd, and should be treated as such.

I'd imagine a steak has very low AR if prepared properly, but you make a fair point.

I think if I were a rules lawyer I'd be disbarred -- to me, MDC was more of a psychological obstacle; I was thinking in the context of the baseball bat against the APC in the main rules.

[glitterboy2098]

assigning SDC and AR certainly would be over thinking it. but the fact is, that in the setting it is official that SDC people can eat meat from MDC animals. ones that produce MDC hide and bones for other purposes. so for RP purposes the question of "how?" is an important one. since you'd expect MDC animals to produce meat that chips teeth and is totally indigestible due to their naturally tough nature. as mentioned by Killer cyborg, these are animals that can shrug off point blank Explosions without taking damage, but human teeth and cut and chew them?

[GeorgeNotes]

In the New West book, under the Cowboy O.C.C. it says Tri-Tops and a few others are good eating. They are also good for dairy.

So to answer your question... Rare, with an ice cold beer.

It's not the sort of question that lends itself to blanket answers. I'd go for a case by case basis.

Dinosaurs at least, seem to be edible. If you can get past all the scales and claws and teeth.

[taalismn]

I'd imagine a steak has very low AR if prepared properly, but you make a fair point. .

THAT'S a way of phrasing a restaurant review I wouldn't want to read if I were the owner...
"The steak was so tough it had an armor rating.....of a bullet-proof vest."

[Pepsi Jedi]

The article in the rifter was actually very good. and I too wish it'd been official. I had a long running campagin where our group went out to hunt Dino's for food sources, for a Fast food Restraunt in Northern Gun ( Dino-burger! ). Our group would go out, hunt the dinos. Manage to bring one down. Hold off other predators while the meat was harvested. Transport it, etc. We'd get into good old fashion "RP group" Shenanigans on the way to and from NG, or WHile hunting the dinos, etc. "You come across....." Or "While in transit you come to a small town with THIS problem...." But yeah. It was a fun game. Wasn't "Just" hunting dinos (The food that can hunt you back!). But that was the 'underlying frame work' that the game was based on/around.

Think "Firefly" on Rifts Earth, but with dinosaur hunting/harvesting. lol

More than once "But how!" Would come up and the Rifter article gave us nice in universe answers.

Are some of them (pardon the pun) Tongue in cheek? yeah.. but it's RIFTS..... There's Dinos' out there to eat (and or milk) There's Glitter boys, and dragons that can metamorph into pigs that can rip your leg off and beat you to death with it if you try and make them into bacon. A bit of "This is how it works, don't think TOOOO Heavy into it" works just fine in rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

This is one of those things where I'm like, "your overthinking is getting in the way of the fun." M.D.C. is a mechanic for tracking damage for the purpose of conflict resolution. If you are applying it to characters consumption of food, you're running a game I wouldn't want to play. Do you require characters to roll damage to "S.D.C. food" when they eat it? Should they roll to hit? What is the A.R. of a well-done steak verses the A.R. of a tomato sandwich?

This topic has always been bait for rules lawyers ad absurd, and should be treated as such.

What would be absurd is assuming that humans can chew through flesh that shrugs off TNT.

Only if one accepts the underlying premise that all flesh on all MDC creatures is equally durable.

All one need accept is that MDC flesh takes 100 SDC worth of damage to significantly harm it.

Which since we have canon statements that some MDC creatures are eaten, seems to be a mistake.

"MDC creatures can be eaten" does not mean that MDC flesh can be eaten.

If we throw out that unsupported premise then we get back to a (IMHO) much more reasonable "Most things that are MDC are MDC because that is an easier way to conceptualize damage and not because the actual game mechanics exist in universe"
This allows for things that are MDC because they have armored hides, things that are MDC because they are just really tough, things that are MDC because they are supernatural... All sorts of different MDC beings. It gets us away from the absurd "All things that are MDC are MDC because they are this way, even though that is never actually stated in any book, and even though that explanation makes no sense. And because of this nonsensical fanon explanation the following happens, even though this violates what is in the books"

Not sure what you're talking about there.
"MDC flesh is MDC" is a truism. Are you really trying to argue about it?

I've already addressed supernatural beings.
Creatures with SDC flesh and MDC hides/shells are described in canon, but of course most MDC creatures are logically MDC throughout. Otherwise they'd get pulped by the first railgun burst, and all you'd have to do is squeeze the pulp out of their MDC hide. Unless they have such massive SDC that they can resist that kind of internal damage, in which case it nets out the same as if they're MDC throughout--it'll still be effectively impossible to chew.

First case in point. A cyborg is, for game statistical purposes, an MDC being. This does not mean that some how all the fleshy bits are now super-duper tough and can not be eaten or harmed by 'normal' processes. It just means that for game stat purposes it is treated a certain way.

Yup.
Good luck getting much meat from a borg, though.

Second case in point would be divisibility. If a 25 ton lizard has 80 MDC, including its armored scaly hide (which can be used to make MDC armor) then it does not make any sense that a 6oz cut of said meat should have even 1 MDC...

Except that the MDC listed does not represent the entire mega-damage of the creature in question. If it DID, then you couldn't make armor out of its hide after killing it (reducing that 80 MDC to 0 MDC) with mega-damage weapons.

Look at it like the Dune Buggy on p. 11 of RMB.
It's got 300 SDC. It gets hit for 3 MD.
The dune buggy is "blown in half."
The SDC of (the dune buggy) is now zero, but that doesn't mean that each remaining (half of a dune buggy) has zero SDC, or even a very low number like 1-20 SDC.
And is sure as heck doesn't mean that the dune buggy parts that remain are now edible.

[ShadowLogan]

assigning SDC and AR certainly would be over thinking it. but the fact is, that in the setting it is official that SDC people can eat meat from MDC animals. ones that produce MDC hide and bones for other purposes. so for RP purposes the question of "how?" is an important one. since you'd expect MDC animals to produce meat that chips teeth and is totally indigestible due to their naturally tough nature. as mentioned by Killer cyborg, these are animals that can shrug off point blank Explosions without taking damage, but human teeth and cut and chew them?

A thought crosses my mind and may need some adjustment to get the idea across, but what if the MDC aspect is a result of bundled reinforcement that greatly amplifies their individual durability*. This would mean that all an SDC critter has to be able to do with the MDC critters flesh is to be able to reduce the "bundled size" to a manageable level by one or more means.

*Sort of like how individually you can easily tear a phone book page completely, but try to do all the pages at once in the typical metro area type book and it becomes a lot tougher. Or individual spaghetti noodles, uncooked, can be easily snapped but as you try to break more and more they require more force.

Second case in point would be divisibility. If a 25 ton lizard has 80 MDC, including its armored scaly hide (which can be used to make MDC armor) then it does not make any sense that a 6oz cut of said meat should have even 1 MDC...

This is actually very true. I reviewed an old project where I looked at MDC to mass ratios several years ago. Of the known cited critters (dinos and the fury beetle) and mutant MDC versions of RL critters humans are known to consume (like Bear, Whale, Octopus, etc) the results put them at LESS THAN 1 MDC per 1 KG of mass (1kg = 2.2lbs = 35.2oz). That means even if we assume 100SDC per kg (which is higher than indicated), each oz of meat would have ~3SDC which easily falls within bite and knife attack range.

So I guess the real question should be at what point in terms of divisibility does MDC target lose its MDC rating and become vulnerable to SDC attacks?

Quick note: NOT ALL critters on the list had a ratio of less than 1, some are greater than 1 (and some that get into double digits or better over 1).

"MDC creatures can be eaten" does not mean that MDC flesh can be eaten.

It does mean that at least some MDC flesh can be eaten, though it is possible that not all MDC flesh can be eaten or made to be eaten. (There are SDC sources that don't get completely eaten, but are still usable in part).

Yup.
Good luck getting much meat from a borg, though.

Depends on what type of meat you are looking for. Someone only interested in say the brain probably doesn't care if you don't have say a liver or other muscles to feast on.

[Killer Cyborg]

"MDC creatures can be eaten" does not mean that MDC flesh can be eaten.

It does mean that at least some MDC flesh can be eaten, though it is possible that not all MDC flesh can be eaten or made to be eaten. (There are SDC sources that don't get completely eaten, but are still usable in part).

What it means is that at least some MDC creatures have flesh that can be eaten by SDC beings in at least some circumstances.
It's quite possible that MDC flesh has to undergo some form of massive tenderization that renders it into SDC flesh (with low enough SDC to be edible).
It's quite possible that the MDC creatures listed revert naturally back to SDC creatures at some point after their death (obtaining MDC hides from the bodies may well involve special preservation techniques).
It's possible that the MDC creatures do have SDC flesh of some kind within them, similar to Borgs, and that the bulk of their flesh remains MDC and remains inedible.

Yup.
Good luck getting much meat from a borg, though.

Depends on what type of meat you are looking for. Someone only interested in say the brain probably doesn't care if you don't have say a liver or other muscles to feast on.

I don't know if the brain or other organs qualify as "meat," but I do have to agree with your overall point.
It's not a lot of food per overall body weight, but it's not too bad.

[kaid]

what if only the skin is MDC not the meat under it. so once you get thought the skin the rest is all SDC.

Also kind of makes sense if you punch through the hide the critter is going to be dead dead dead. It is an interesting question as we have a number of cannon cases of some MDC things being edible like rhino buffalo/fury beetles although I believe only the juvenile fury beetles are used as well as dino's from the dinosaur swamp.

It could be a combination of the whole thing not being SDC and only the hide is that tough/armored which does make some sense or people have learned various techniques to make them edible.

Humans have a long history of finding ways of making seemingly inedible things into common food stuffs. Take tapioca the casava root. In its natural state it has very high concentrations of cyanide which make it very poisonous to eat. To make it edible it has to be chopped up/boiled and then preferably freeze dried which was accomplished back in ancient times by hiking it to the top of mountains to freeze and dry out at night. This is a common basic food stuff in the area and you just have to wonder how many people died attempting to figure out a way to prepare it in a way that is edible and why they kept trying.

Hunger is a great motivator for creativity I guess.

[taalismn]

[Good luck getting much meat from a borg, though..

Quality may suffer too...some people prefer fresh meat, not canned, even when it's specific tissues. And those preservatives...

[kaid]

Great now I am picturing brodkil demons with giant crab mallets whacking away at borgs trying to get at the tasty bits.

[taalismn]

Great now I am picturing brodkil demons with giant crab mallets whacking away at borgs trying to get at the tasty bits.

"I kinda regret customizing my body to look like a giant crab at this point."

[eliakon]

This is one of those things where I'm like, "your overthinking is getting in the way of the fun." M.D.C. is a mechanic for tracking damage for the purpose of conflict resolution. If you are applying it to characters consumption of food, you're running a game I wouldn't want to play. Do you require characters to roll damage to "S.D.C. food" when they eat it? Should they roll to hit? What is the A.R. of a well-done steak verses the A.R. of a tomato sandwich?

This topic has always been bait for rules lawyers ad absurd, and should be treated as such.

What would be absurd is assuming that humans can chew through flesh that shrugs off TNT.

Only if one accepts the underlying premise that all flesh on all MDC creatures is equally durable.

All one need accept is that MDC flesh takes 100 SDC worth of damage to significantly harm it.

No, one needs to accept that any piece of any given size from any portion of a monster what so ever takes 100 SDC to damage, regardless of the size or location. "Just because"
Which is what I reject as absurd

Which since we have canon statements that some MDC creatures are eaten, seems to be a mistake.

"MDC creatures can be eaten" does not mean that MDC flesh can be eaten.

The book states that these creatures are used as sources of meat. Ergo their flesh can be eaten unless dinosaurs have SDC meat fruits growing on them or something.

If we throw out that unsupported premise then we get back to a (IMHO) much more reasonable "Most things that are MDC are MDC because that is an easier way to conceptualize damage and not because the actual game mechanics exist in universe"
This allows for things that are MDC because they have armored hides, things that are MDC because they are just really tough, things that are MDC because they are supernatural... All sorts of different MDC beings. It gets us away from the absurd "All things that are MDC are MDC because they are this way, even though that is never actually stated in any book, and even though that explanation makes no sense. And because of this nonsensical fanon explanation the following happens, even though this violates what is in the books"

Not sure what you're talking about there.
"MDC flesh is MDC" is a truism. Are you really trying to argue about it?

I've already addressed supernatural beings.
Creatures with SDC flesh and MDC hides/shells are described in canon, but of course most MDC creatures are logically MDC throughout. Otherwise they'd get pulped by the first railgun burst, and all you'd have to do is squeeze the pulp out of their MDC hide. Unless they have such massive SDC that they can resist that kind of internal damage, in which case it nets out the same as if they're MDC throughout--it'll still be effectively impossible to chew.

Unfortunatly your making a slight mistake there.
Your using a house rule that a railgun burst can some how pulp it.
Using the RAW if you have MDC armor, then it doesn't matter.
MDC swimsuit? RAW says that being hit with a railgun will just damage the armor.
Now you may not like that rule. But that happens to be the rule. And since those rules were the ones that were consulted when the idea of 'you can eat MDC creatures' was made, then no the claim that 'it must be MDC through out or else it would be pulped' fails because that is not a rule, its fanon.

First case in point. A cyborg is, for game statistical purposes, an MDC being. This does not mean that some how all the fleshy bits are now super-duper tough and can not be eaten or harmed by 'normal' processes. It just means that for game stat purposes it is treated a certain way.

Yup.
Good luck getting much meat from a borg, though.

Your avoiding the point.
The point is that it is an MDC creature, just like your dinosaur. And guess what? It has SDC meat.
Ergo, I have just demonstrated that RAW it is totally possible to be an MDC being with SDC flesh.

Second case in point would be divisibility. If a 25 ton lizard has 80 MDC, including its armored scaly hide (which can be used to make MDC armor) then it does not make any sense that a 6oz cut of said meat should have even 1 MDC...

Except that the MDC listed does not represent the entire mega-damage of the creature in question. If it DID, then you couldn't make armor out of its hide after killing it (reducing that 80 MDC to 0 MDC) with mega-damage weapons.

Look at it like the Dune Buggy on p. 11 of RMB.
It's got 300 SDC. It gets hit for 3 MD.
The dune buggy is "blown in half."
The SDC of (the dune buggy) is now zero, but that doesn't mean that each remaining (half of a dune buggy) has zero SDC, or even a very low number like 1-20 SDC.
And is sure as heck doesn't mean that the dune buggy parts that remain are now edible.

It also doesn't mean that since a SAMAS is MDC, that every rivet, screw, and wire inside it therefore has 1+MDC point. There will be a lot of SDC components inside it. But it doesn't matter because RAW, they can't be damaged with out destroying the location's MDC.


Using house rules and fanon to try and overturn the RAW so that one can argue a point really doesn't prove anything...

[dragonfett]

I think that one of the main points of confusion here is how everyone seems to be assuming that rail guns do MD damage via the force of the rail gun rounds and not potentially from the rounds ability to apply force to a small area (or it's sharpness) and/or it's ability to retain it's shape upon impact (it would be pretty hard for a round to continue penetration it the tip of the round gets dull, and yes I realize just how bad that all sounds).

[eliakon]

I think that one of the main points of confusion here is how everyone seems to be assuming that rail guns do MD damage via the force of the rail gun rounds and not potentially from the rounds ability to apply force to a small area (or it's sharpness) and/or it's ability to retain it's shape upon impact (it would be pretty hard for a round to continue penetration it the tip of the round gets dull, and yes I realize just how bad that all sounds).

Or possibly that it does MD damage only because MD is an abstraction that exists solely as a game mechanic and doesn't actually have a 'real' in universe 1:1 analogue? It represents a huge array of diverse effects, features, and options that all distill into a mechanic.
Railguns do MD because they are MD weapons.
Seriously, that is the reason. We can come up with all sorts of explanations of why we can justify this item here working this way, and that item there working that way. But at a certain point it comes down to "because the game is not a reality simulator, and thus it just has to make up values that are plausibly entertaining and more or less internally self consistent"

Its a game, not a physics treatise. This is why the term 'rules lawyering' was used before. Because it is trying to take a game mechanical rule and extrapolate it as if it were an actual in universe law of physics.

Since I do not think that anyone is going to argue that, for example all motors must have quantum outputs (since PS only exists in discrete quanta) and that there for that any motor of any horse power is identical to any other motor, even of different horse power, as long as their resulting PS is the same...
...I reject the notion that we should some how accept that MDC gets to be special and gets to be infinitely quantum... but only when convenient.

[Blue_Lion]

MD is a meta quality of the mega universe of rifts. If you take any MDC life form and move it to a no MDC envorment it has SDC stats. At the same time we have stuff in other games that is SDC but once it crosses over to rifts becomes MDC. So even with MDC creatures they are made up of stuff that can be SDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

What would be absurd is assuming that humans can chew through flesh that shrugs off TNT.

Only if one accepts the underlying premise that all flesh on all MDC creatures is equally durable.

All one need accept is that MDC flesh takes 100 SDC worth of damage to significantly harm it.

No, one needs to accept that any piece of any given size from any portion of a monster what so ever takes 100 SDC to damage, regardless of the size or location. "Just because"
Which is what I reject as absurd

Right.
Something that has, for example, 1 MDC per pound doesn't necessarily have 1 MDC per oz.
But you do need to inflict 1 MD in order to slice off that oz as a rule, and that oz may well have 1 MDC, or 50 SDC, or some other such damage capacity that makes it unlikely to be as easy to chew as regular meat.

"MDC creatures can be eaten" does not mean that MDC flesh can be eaten.

The book states that these creatures are used as sources of meat. Ergo their flesh can be eaten unless dinosaurs have SDC meat fruits growing on them or something.

Uh... I'm going to let you argue that idea out with THIS guy:

The point is that it is an MDC creature, just like your dinosaur. And guess what? It has SDC meat.
Ergo, I have just demonstrated that RAW it is totally possible to be an MDC being with SDC flesh.

Let me know what you guys decide about whether "MDC creatures can be eaten" and "MDC flesh can be eaten" are the same thing.

"MDC flesh is MDC" is a truism. Are you really trying to argue about it?

I've already addressed supernatural beings.
Creatures with SDC flesh and MDC hides/shells are described in canon, but of course most MDC creatures are logically MDC throughout. Otherwise they'd get pulped by the first railgun burst, and all you'd have to do is squeeze the pulp out of their MDC hide. Unless they have such massive SDC that they can resist that kind of internal damage, in which case it nets out the same as if they're MDC throughout--it'll still be effectively impossible to chew.

Unfortunatly your making a slight mistake there.
Your using a house rule that a railgun burst can some how pulp it.
Using the RAW if you have MDC armor, then it doesn't matter.
MDC swimsuit? RAW says that being hit with a railgun will just damage the armor.

RMB p. 12 rules address taking SDC damage while wearing MDC armor.
So does RGMG 31-32.

If you want to argue that those rules don't cover "railgun bursts," then cool.
I'll alter my statement to be
"Creatures with SDC flesh and MDC hides/shells are described in canon, but of course most MDC creatures are logically MDC throughout. Otherwise they'd get pulped by the first sufficiently damaging explosion, fall or high-speed impact, and all you'd have to do is squeeze the pulp out of their MDC hide. Unless they have such massive SDC that they can resist that kind of internal damage, in which case it nets out the same as if they're MDC throughout--it'll still be effectively impossible to chew."

Now you may not like that rule. But that happens to be the rule.

Quote the exact rule that you're talking about

Second case in point would be divisibility. If a 25 ton lizard has 80 MDC, including its armored scaly hide (which can be used to make MDC armor) then it does not make any sense that a 6oz cut of said meat should have even 1 MDC...

Except that the MDC listed does not represent the entire mega-damage of the creature in question. If it DID, then you couldn't make armor out of its hide after killing it (reducing that 80 MDC to 0 MDC) with mega-damage weapons.

Look at it like the Dune Buggy on p. 11 of RMB.
It's got 300 SDC. It gets hit for 3 MD.
The dune buggy is "blown in half."
The SDC of (the dune buggy) is now zero, but that doesn't mean that each remaining (half of a dune buggy) has zero SDC, or even a very low number like 1-20 SDC.
And is sure as heck doesn't mean that the dune buggy parts that remain are now edible.

It also doesn't mean that since a SAMAS is MDC, that every rivet, screw, and wire inside it therefore has 1+MDC point. There will be a lot of SDC components inside it. But it doesn't matter because RAW, they can't be damaged with out destroying the location's MDC.

a) Got a source for the bolded portion?
b) Yes, any hypothetical SDC components can't be damaged without destroying the location's MDC.
In theory, if one does enough damage to MDC flesh, then parts of it may eventually become SDC flesh.
Congratulations for mostly catching up to my very first post in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=2918069#p2918069

The only what that it makes sense to me for MDC flesh to be edible by SDC creatures is if something renders it into SDC flesh.
Some magic/supernatural critters might turn into SDC at the moment of death, their magic/supernatural nature gone along with their life.

Otherwise, I'd say that there'd have to be one hell of a tenderization process, enough so that the flesh is no longer Mega-Damage.

[eliakon]

What would be absurd is assuming that humans can chew through flesh that shrugs off TNT.

Only if one accepts the underlying premise that all flesh on all MDC creatures is equally durable.

All one need accept is that MDC flesh takes 100 SDC worth of damage to significantly harm it.

No, one needs to accept that any piece of any given size from any portion of a monster what so ever takes 100 SDC to damage, regardless of the size or location. "Just because"
Which is what I reject as absurd

Right.
Something that has, for example, 1 MDC per pound doesn't necessarily have 1 MDC per oz.
But you do need to inflict 1 MD in order to slice off that oz as a rule, and that oz may well have 1 MDC, or 50 SDC, or some other such damage capacity that makes it unlikely to be as easy to chew as regular meat.

So we are back to defending steaks have AR and SDC silliness. Got it

"MDC creatures can be eaten" does not mean that MDC flesh can be eaten.

The book states that these creatures are used as sources of meat. Ergo their flesh can be eaten unless dinosaurs have SDC meat fruits growing on them or something.

Uh... I'm going to let you argue that idea out with THIS guy:

The point is that it is an MDC creature, just like your dinosaur. And guess what? It has SDC meat.
Ergo, I have just demonstrated that RAW it is totally possible to be an MDC being with SDC flesh.

Let me know what you guys decide about whether "MDC creatures can be eaten" and "MDC flesh can be eaten" are the same thing.

Your attempt here to play semantics games to get out of this doesn't do anything other than show that rules lawyering and semantics seem to be more important than actually discussing the situation.
Because sorry, these two statements do not conflict.
MDC creatures can be eaten does not in any way, shape, or form, conflict with the flesh of MDC creatures can be eaten.
In fact they are the exact same statements.
Saying that you can eat a MDC creature means, by definition, that you can eat the flesh of an MDC creature.
All this tells me is that you are not interested in actually facing situations where you have been demonstrated to be factually wrong and instead are trying to make a false impression that my arguments are conflicting so as to cast them as mutually exclusive and thus that your argument must some how be right.

"MDC flesh is MDC" is a truism. Are you really trying to argue about it?

I've already addressed supernatural beings.
Creatures with SDC flesh and MDC hides/shells are described in canon, but of course most MDC creatures are logically MDC throughout. Otherwise they'd get pulped by the first railgun burst, and all you'd have to do is squeeze the pulp out of their MDC hide. Unless they have such massive SDC that they can resist that kind of internal damage, in which case it nets out the same as if they're MDC throughout--it'll still be effectively impossible to chew.

Unfortunatly your making a slight mistake there.
Your using a house rule that a railgun burst can some how pulp it.
Using the RAW if you have MDC armor, then it doesn't matter.
MDC swimsuit? RAW says that being hit with a railgun will just damage the armor.

RMB p. 12 rules address taking SDC damage while wearing MDC armor.
So does RGMG 31-32.

If you want to argue that those rules don't cover "railgun bursts," then cool.
I'll alter my statement to be
"Creatures with SDC flesh and MDC hides/shells are described in canon, but of course most MDC creatures are logically MDC throughout. Otherwise they'd get pulped by the first sufficiently damaging explosion, fall or high-speed impact, and all you'd have to do is squeeze the pulp out of their MDC hide. Unless they have such massive SDC that they can resist that kind of internal damage, in which case it nets out the same as if they're MDC throughout--it'll still be effectively impossible to chew."

Again your making a false statement
1d4 SDC per 20 MDC (from explosions and large falls only btw) is not some sort of massive damage that is going to make some sort of pulp.
Making ridiculous statements that have no basis in fact to try and make a factual statement look ludicrous is not really a very rational way to argue a position logically.
AND these rules still don't even apply to the primary example used that is the one that would be relevant. Borgs do not take SDC damage from these explosions and impacts. Why? Because they are not 'rattling around inside the armor and getting bruised' which is the damage method listed. They are the armor. Which means that these rules don't even apply to things with built in armor like borgs...Or possibly like dinosaurs, anymore than the rules on how psionics damage things would apply to damage from lasers.

Now you may not like that rule. But that happens to be the rule.

Quote the exact rule that you're talking about

Same place you found your rule
RMB page 12 "M.D.C. Natural Armor
Many supernatural creatures, such as dragons, vampires, many demons, and others have natural protective armor covering or M.D.C. skin, or their supernatural essence makes them a mega-damage structure. In these cases, normal SDC weapons can not harm the creature..."

Now if you have a rule that you can cite that says that there is any circumstance in which MDC armor does not protect. I would be fascinated to see it. Because the rules as written simply state that having body armor is enough to protect you. There is no AR for MDC armor... and since part of AR is coverage, there is no coverage factor to MDC protection in the rules. It either is or isn't, its a binary state.

Second case in point would be divisibility. If a 25 ton lizard has 80 MDC, including its armored scaly hide (which can be used to make MDC armor) then it does not make any sense that a 6oz cut of said meat should have even 1 MDC...

Except that the MDC listed does not represent the entire mega-damage of the creature in question. If it DID, then you couldn't make armor out of its hide after killing it (reducing that 80 MDC to 0 MDC) with mega-damage weapons.

Look at it like the Dune Buggy on p. 11 of RMB.
It's got 300 SDC. It gets hit for 3 MD.
The dune buggy is "blown in half."
The SDC of (the dune buggy) is now zero, but that doesn't mean that each remaining (half of a dune buggy) has zero SDC, or even a very low number like 1-20 SDC.
And is sure as heck doesn't mean that the dune buggy parts that remain are now edible.

It also doesn't mean that since a SAMAS is MDC, that every rivet, screw, and wire inside it therefore has 1+MDC point. There will be a lot of SDC components inside it. But it doesn't matter because RAW, they can't be damaged with out destroying the location's MDC.

a) Got a source for the bolded portion?

Cool, I got it your supporting the every metal shaving is MDC interpretation. I understand
Although the simple fact that the various tools for use on repairs inside these systems do SDC would suggest that, infact there are SDC components inside.
As well as the simple fact that there would be no need for making armor if micro electronics were MDC structures, or if fiber optics were SDC structures. (I have not checked the various books on mechanics and robots to see what they say about electronics, though I do recall reading that internal electronics were not protected and destroyed if any damage gets through)

b) Yes, any hypothetical SDC components can't be damaged without destroying the location's MDC.
In theory, if one does enough damage to MDC flesh, then parts of it may eventually become SDC flesh.
Congratulations for mostly catching up to my very first post in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=2918069#p2918069

The only what that it makes sense to me for MDC flesh to be edible by SDC creatures is if something renders it into SDC flesh.
Some magic/supernatural critters might turn into SDC at the moment of death, their magic/supernatural nature gone along with their life.

Otherwise, I'd say that there'd have to be one hell of a tenderization process, enough so that the flesh is no longer Mega-Damage.

Well except for the part where I am saying that breaching the armor is good enough to get at the non-MDC parts inside (I.E. deplete the MDC of a location and it is destroyed. I do not have to then deplete the MDC of the parts inside it too)

And except that your pretending that some how you have to shoot a microchip until it loses its 'mdc status' to become SDC, instead of having actual SDC microchips

Its just like a borg. You don't have to 'tenderize' the flesh, or 'break it down' from MDC to SDC, because the flesh was already SDC, it just needs to be gotten at through all the armor.

... Unless we accept your premise that everything is MDC, and that this MDC is infinitely divisible into any arbitrarily small quantity of flesh.
And that this is some how different than our known example of a Borg that has known SDC flesh inside a creature that is MDC.
AND that there is also some hypothetical process that turns MDC substances into SDC ones. Which there isn't actually in canon.
And that this hypothetical process which is used on these meats, but no one ever mentions it anywhere, is apparently so easy, quick, and efficient that it is not mentioned anywhere, can (and is) done by groups as diverse as cowboys on the plains, Indian tribes, mutants, homesteads, barbarians... I.e. that it apparently requires no special equipment, no special training, no special tools, no special chemicals, no time (nomadic groups seem to have no issue here), no technology, and oh yeah, are universal.


In summery. No you do not have to have all the internal flesh of an MDC creature be Mega Damage structures, where a 6oz cut can stop a rocket. We have a canon example of how it is possible to have MDC skin and bones and some internal portions and still have SDC flesh that can be eaten. Since we know that this can be done, since it exists, it is easy to extend this possibility to creatures that we know are both MDC, and are consumed for meat.

[Killer Cyborg]

Something that has, for example, 1 MDC per pound doesn't necessarily have 1 MDC per oz.
But you do need to inflict 1 MD in order to slice off that oz as a rule, and that oz may well have 1 MDC, or 50 SDC, or some other such damage capacity that makes it unlikely to be as easy to chew as regular meat.

So we are back to defending steaks have AR and SDC silliness. Got it

Let me know when you have an argument instead of insults.

"MDC creatures can be eaten" does not mean that MDC flesh can be eaten.

The book states that these creatures are used as sources of meat. Ergo their flesh can be eaten unless dinosaurs have SDC meat fruits growing on them or something.

Uh... I'm going to let you argue that idea out with THIS guy:

The point is that it is an MDC creature, just like your dinosaur. And guess what? It has SDC meat.
Ergo, I have just demonstrated that RAW it is totally possible to be an MDC being with SDC flesh.

Let me know what you guys decide about whether "MDC creatures can be eaten" and "MDC flesh can be eaten" are the same thing.

Your attempt here to play semantics games to get out of this doesn't do anything other than show that rules lawyering and semantics seem to be more important than actually discussing the situation.
Because sorry, these two statements do not conflict.

I said "MDC creatures can be eaten" does not mean that MDC flesh can be eaten.
You tried to counter by claiming that the fact that the books say that dinosaurs can be eaten means that MDC flesh can be eaten.
Then you later point out that MDC beings might have SDC flesh.

So... which is it?
Does the fact that dinos get eaten by SDC beings necessarily mean that MDC flesh can be eaten by SDC Beings, OR is it possible that MDC beings might have SDC components?

Saying that you can eat a MDC creature means, by definition, that you can eat the flesh of an MDC creature.

But not that you can eat MDC flesh, which is what this part of the conversation is about.

All this tells me is that you are not interested in actually facing situations where you have been demonstrated to be factually wrong

I'll let you know when such a situation occurs.

MDC swimsuit? RAW says that being hit with a railgun will just damage the armor.

RMB p. 12 rules address taking SDC damage while wearing MDC armor.
So does RGMG 31-32.

If you want to argue that those rules don't cover "railgun bursts," then cool.
I'll alter my statement to be
"Creatures with SDC flesh and MDC hides/shells are described in canon, but of course most MDC creatures are logically MDC throughout. Otherwise they'd get pulped by the first sufficiently damaging explosion, fall or high-speed impact, and all you'd have to do is squeeze the pulp out of their MDC hide. Unless they have such massive SDC that they can resist that kind of internal damage, in which case it nets out the same as if they're MDC throughout--it'll still be effectively impossible to chew."

Again your making a false statement
1d4 SDC per 20 MDC (from explosions and large falls only btw) is not some sort of massive damage that is going to make some sort of pulp.

That would depend on how much SDC we're talking about.
Which is why I had the bolded portion in my statement.

Making ridiculous statements that have no basis in fact to try and make a factual statement look ludicrous is not really a very rational way to argue a position logically.

Apology accepted.
IF you have anything in canon saying that dinosaurs have SDC flesh, then present it.
If not, then let's just move on.

Borgs do not take SDC damage from these explosions and impacts. Why?

Because they are MDC beings. Other than that, we're not told. Perhaps the no longer have SDC components. Perhaps their SDC components are just rolled into their MDC damage pool.
The books never really say.

Now you may not like that rule. But that happens to be the rule.

Quote the exact rule that you're talking about

Same place you found your rule
RMB page 12 "M.D.C. Natural Armor
Many supernatural creatures, such as dragons, vampires, many demons, and others have natural protective armor covering or M.D.C. skin, or their supernatural essence makes them a mega-damage structure. In these cases, normal SDC weapons can not harm the creature..."

I don't see anything about swimsuits in there, which is what I asked about.
Where is the rule that states that a person wearing a MDC swimsuit doesn't sustain SDC damage from railgun bursts (or other attacks)?

Now if you have a rule that you can cite that says that there is any circumstance in which MDC armor does not protect.

Already cited. The rules regarding taking SDC damage while in MDC armor.

I would be fascinated to see it.

You didn't seem fascinated. You just kind of tried to blow on by it, ignoring the point.

Because the rules as written simply state that having body armor is enough to protect you. There is no AR for MDC armor... and since part of AR is coverage, there is no coverage factor to MDC protection in the rules. It either is or isn't, its a binary state.

Some MDC armor has Armor Ratings, and there are rules (RGMG 31) for assinging Armor Ratings to partial MDC armor when determining if certain attacks can bypass it.
That's not binary.

a SAMAS is MDC, that every rivet, screw, and wire inside it therefore has 1+MDC point. There will be a lot of SDC components inside it. But it doesn't matter because RAW, they can't be damaged with out destroying the location's MDC.

a) Got a source for the bolded portion?

Cool, I got it your supporting the every metal shaving is MDC interpretation.

You made a claim.
I'm asking for your source.
Do you have one, or are you citing "fanon?"

b) Yes, any hypothetical SDC components can't be damaged without destroying the location's MDC.
In theory, if one does enough damage to MDC flesh, then parts of it may eventually become SDC flesh.
Congratulations for mostly catching up to my very first post in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=2918069#p2918069

The only what that it makes sense to me for MDC flesh to be edible by SDC creatures is if something renders it into SDC flesh.
Some magic/supernatural critters might turn into SDC at the moment of death, their magic/supernatural nature gone along with their life.

Otherwise, I'd say that there'd have to be one hell of a tenderization process, enough so that the flesh is no longer Mega-Damage.

Well except for the part where I am saying that breaching the armor is good enough to get at the non-MDC parts inside (I.E. deplete the MDC of a location and it is destroyed. I do not have to then deplete the MDC of the parts inside it too)

Do you consider SDC flesh to be MDC flesh?
If so, then I'll ask you to elaborate.
If not, then I'll ask why you're talking about SDC flesh in response to a post about MDC flesh.

And except that your pretending that some how you have to shoot a microchip until it loses its 'mdc status' to become SDC, instead of having actual SDC microchips

That's not what I said.
Try again, with more effort, instead of tilting at strawmen.

Its just like a borg. You don't have to 'tenderize' the flesh, or 'break it down' from MDC to SDC, because the flesh was already SDC, it just needs to be gotten at through all the armor.

Source for the bolded statement?
Or is it more fanon?

Unless we accept your premise that everything is MDC, and that this MDC is infinitely divisible into any arbitrarily small quantity of flesh.

I wouldn't make that claim, so I'm not sure why you would.

AND that there is also some hypothetical process that turns MDC substances into SDC ones. Which there isn't actually in canon.

What is actually in canon is:
a) Dinosaurs and certain other MDC creatures have flesh that is edible by SDC beings
b) Dinosaurs and the other creatures are MDC beings that are not mentioned to have SDC flesh.
c) The bite of SDC creatures is not sufficient high of damage to chew through MDC flesh.

Anything beyond that is pure speculation.

And that this hypothetical process which is used on these meats, but no one ever mentions it anywhere, is apparently so easy, quick, and efficient that it is not mentioned anywhere, can (and is) done by groups as diverse as cowboys on the plains, Indian tribes, mutants, homesteads, barbarians... I.e. that it apparently requires no special equipment, no special training, no special tools, no special chemicals, no time (nomadic groups seem to have no issue here), no technology, and oh yeah, are universal.

You're doing a heck of a lot of speculation there.
Do I need to point it all out, or are you already aware of it?

In summery. No you do not have to have all the internal flesh of an MDC creature be Mega Damage structures,

Whack that strawman good.

where a 6oz cut can stop a rocket. We have a canon example of how it is possible to have MDC skin and bones and some internal portions and still have SDC flesh that can be eaten. Since we know that this can be done, since it exists, it is easy to extend this possibility to creatures that we know are both MDC, and are consumed for meat.

That's one hypothetical, sure. That Dinosaurs have secret SDC flesh in addition to their MDC flesh, and that when people make dino steaks they're only eating the secret SDC flesh, and the MDC flesh doesn't convert to SDC in any way.
But it's pretty convoluted, and there is nothing indicating that hypothesis in canon.

[eliakon]

Since this is getting ridiculously long.

Lets look at it again, with out slicing it into fifty sentences.

My claim is that the rules allow for
1)a being to have MDC skin as the source of their MDC status
2) that there is a canon example of at least one MDC being that is known to have SDC flesh
3) that there is no canon way to turn MDC materials into SDC materials
4) that based on the fact that SD tools are used on them, that it would seem that, yes there are SDC components inside MDC vehicles
5) that there is no basis to assume that MDC is infinitely divisible, that is that just because a large object has MDC, that any arbitrarily small amount of it will also have MDC. (or put another way, MDC is not a conserved quantum value in universe)
6) that since there is at least one MDC being that has SDC flesh, it is not unreasonable to claim that there can be others
7) That some MDC beings are canonically eaten by humans, there for it must be possible for humans to eat them

Ergo, my claim is that: Since not only is there is nothing in the rules that says that every part of every MDC being is MDC, but in fact we know that, demonstrably, this is not true, that there is therefore no reason to claim that all the meat on every MDC being is MDC regardless of the size of the piece of meat, where it is cut from, or what being it is taken from.

Secondly that based on the above conclusion, that it is therefore probable that at least some MDC beings meat is no more tough than the meat of a regular SDC being, and therefor no harder to eat than one.

Thus the answer to the question of "how do you eat an MDC being" is "Find one of the MDC beings that has its MDC status provided by natural armor, or by a supernatural effect that fades upon death. Kill the being, and then consume the non-armor portions"

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, do you believe consider SDC flesh to be MDC flesh?

[eliakon]

Again, do you believe consider SDC flesh to be MDC flesh?

Since not all MDC beings have MDC flesh the question is a red herring that has about as much relevance as asking if Dinosaurs are red meat or white meat (i.e. no relevance to the discussion and has nothing to do what so ever with anything I have said or claimed).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Since this is getting ridiculously long.

Lets look at it again, with out slicing it into fifty sentences.

My claim is that the rules allow for
1)a being to have MDC skin as the source of their MDC status
2) that there is a canon example of at least one MDC being that is known to have SDC flesh
3) that there is no canon way to turn MDC materials into SDC materials
4) that based on the fact that SD tools are used on them, that it would seem that, yes there are SDC components inside MDC vehicles
5) that there is no basis to assume that MDC is infinitely divisible, that is that just because a large object has MDC, that any arbitrarily small amount of it will also have MDC. (or put another way, MDC is not a conserved quantum value in universe)
6) that since there is at least one MDC being that has SDC flesh, it is not unreasonable to claim that there can be others
7) That some MDC beings are canonically eaten by humans, there for it must be possible for humans to eat them

Ergo, my claim is that: Since not only is there is nothing in the rules that says that every part of every MDC being is MDC, but in fact we know that, demonstrably, this is not true, that there is therefore no reason to claim that all the meat on every MDC being is MDC regardless of the size of the piece of meat, where it is cut from, or what being it is taken from.

Secondly that based on the above conclusion, that it is therefore probable that at least some MDC beings meat is no more tough than the meat of a regular SDC being, and therefor no harder to eat than one.

Thus the answer to the question of "how do you eat an MDC being" is "Find one of the MDC beings that has its MDC status provided by natural armor, or by a supernatural effect that fades upon death. Kill the being, and then consume the non-armor portions"

The thing is, that this takes alot of 'assumptions' lables them as stipulating fact, and then runs with them building the arguement off of 'given facts' that really aren't. In fact many of the givens you have could easily be seen as the inverse. Your number 5 for example is an assumption that can just as easily go the other way. 'Due to the fact that the whole is MDC and there are no stats for SDC 'parts' of the MDC creature then we can logically assume that the entire creature is MDC, from tip to tail, and thus any part of the whole, likewise is MDC, even if in part. I.E. yes a small Fillet of Dino flesh is MDC just like a huge hunk of flesh would be.


MUCH of this thread also ignores the aspect of MDC being 'More' than just a bunch of SDC.

if an MDC item is struck with an SDC Attack, unless the SDC attack is capiable of doing -the equivilent- of 1+ Mdc in a single attack, the MDC item/structure takes no damage.

You don't get to just add it up. "oh I did 1D6 SDC with this attack and 1D6 SDC with every attack so... I'll eventually get through!"

It's like 'punching' the heavy duty steel door to a cell or something. You can punch it all you want but you're not going to punch your way through a heavy duty steel door. Even if you add up your roughly 3 SDC per attack, 4 attacks per round. The logic doesn't hold that in... 8 and a half minutes you can 'Punch' one MDC at 1D6SDC per round. Thus if the cell door had 10mdc, you're not just bare handed punching your way out in 19 minutes of punching the door.

To put it more in context. A human's not going to walk up to an MDC Item, say, a tank, and go "Well MDC is just alot of SDC, so I'm going to start chewing my way in!" and do (Just for ease sake, 1 SDC Per bite, 4 bites per round.. 4 rounds per minute.) So you're not 'chewing' at the rate of 1MDC per 6.5 minutes, chewing on the tank.

An MD Creature would be exactly the same as the tank. You're not going to chew your way through it, just acting like 'It'll take a bit longer to chew' while it might not shatter your teeth (Though it might) The effect would likely be like trying to chew on thick boot leather. You can maw on it all you want but it's not going to break down and be masticated. You're just chewing and wearing down your teeth on something thats not coming apart/getting 'chewed up' or masticated.

The rifter article mentioned previously is not 'canon' in that it's not official, but it gives a number of 'ways' that MDC flesh could be transformed/ changed, and thus become edible to sdc creatures. Chemical reactions (Basicly 'damaging' the meat through brine etc, untill it is damaged enough that it 'becomes' sdc., Cooking with MD heat etc.)

So while yes, MDC creatures being eaten is mentioned in more than one book, there's no 'canon' explanation as to how. The non cannon explanations fit though, more than thinning MDC Crearures are..

*Effects Pauly Shore voice* "Cruuuuuuunchy on the outside.... sooooft on the inside"

Now with something like a fury beetle.. I could buy it. Hard MDC shell.. gooy buggy (Giant lobster?) insides, but a dinosaur or something, no.

Either way it's not really worth fighting about is it? Roll how ever you like in your game. As there are no -canon- answers in the book. It 'works' how ever your group decides it does.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, do you believe consider SDC flesh to be MDC flesh?

Since not all MDC beings have MDC flesh the question is a red herring that has about as much relevance as asking if Dinosaurs are red meat or white meat (i.e. no relevance to the discussion and has nothing to do what so ever with anything I have said or claimed).

I made statements about MDC flesh.
You've been arguing against the statements.
That's not a red herring; that's the conversation.

[taalismn]

"With enough ketchup, just about anything's edible."
"Okay, so what level pH of ketchup do you recommend for xiticix chitin rinds?"

Well, there's always the Super Digestion superpower from Heroes Unlimited. I can see a process that induces that mutation becoming popular among the megaversal travelling set.
"Superpowers? I aim for superpowers that enable me to live off the land, wherever I go!"

[eliakon]

Again, do you believe consider SDC flesh to be MDC flesh?

Since not all MDC beings have MDC flesh the question is a red herring that has about as much relevance as asking if Dinosaurs are red meat or white meat (i.e. no relevance to the discussion and has nothing to do what so ever with anything I have said or claimed).

I made statements about MDC flesh.
You've been arguing against the statements.
That's not a red herring; that's the conversation.

I am saying that there isn't any such thing.
Not all MDC creatures have MDC flesh. Some do, but not all.

[eliakon]

Since this is getting ridiculously long.

Lets look at it again, with out slicing it into fifty sentences.

My claim is that the rules allow for
1)a being to have MDC skin as the source of their MDC status
2) that there is a canon example of at least one MDC being that is known to have SDC flesh
3) that there is no canon way to turn MDC materials into SDC materials
4) that based on the fact that SD tools are used on them, that it would seem that, yes there are SDC components inside MDC vehicles
5) that there is no basis to assume that MDC is infinitely divisible, that is that just because a large object has MDC, that any arbitrarily small amount of it will also have MDC. (or put another way, MDC is not a conserved quantum value in universe)
6) that since there is at least one MDC being that has SDC flesh, it is not unreasonable to claim that there can be others
7) That some MDC beings are canonically eaten by humans, there for it must be possible for humans to eat them

Ergo, my claim is that: Since not only is there is nothing in the rules that says that every part of every MDC being is MDC, but in fact we know that, demonstrably, this is not true, that there is therefore no reason to claim that all the meat on every MDC being is MDC regardless of the size of the piece of meat, where it is cut from, or what being it is taken from.

Secondly that based on the above conclusion, that it is therefore probable that at least some MDC beings meat is no more tough than the meat of a regular SDC being, and therefor no harder to eat than one.

Thus the answer to the question of "how do you eat an MDC being" is "Find one of the MDC beings that has its MDC status provided by natural armor, or by a supernatural effect that fades upon death. Kill the being, and then consume the non-armor portions"

The thing is, that this takes alot of 'assumptions' lables them as stipulating fact, and then runs with them building the arguement off of 'given facts' that really aren't. In fact many of the givens you have could easily be seen as the inverse.

I am vastly curious as to see evidence that invalidates any of these claims.

Your number 5 for example is an assumption that can just as easily go the other way. 'Due to the fact that the whole is MDC and there are no stats for SDC 'parts' of the MDC creature then we can logically assume that the entire creature is MDC, from tip to tail, and thus any part of the whole, likewise is MDC, even if in part. I.E. yes a small Fillet of Dino flesh is MDC just like a huge hunk of flesh would be.

So you are willing to argue that some how a 200 ton object that has 30 MDC, is made up of millions of 1MDC 1mm cubes?
or 1 pico meter cubes?
Or hell that the atoms each have 1 MDC?
Never mind that we can pretty well demonstrate that robots have SDC components because the tools that work on them are SDC, and that it talks about the armors used to make their shells?

MUCH of this thread also ignores the aspect of MDC being 'More' than just a bunch of SDC.

if an MDC item is struck with an SDC Attack, unless the SDC attack is capiable of doing -the equivilent- of 1+ Mdc in a single attack, the MDC item/structure takes no damage.

You don't get to just add it up. "oh I did 1D6 SDC with this attack and 1D6 SDC with every attack so... I'll eventually get through!"

It's like 'punching' the heavy duty steel door to a cell or something. You can punch it all you want but you're not going to punch your way through a heavy duty steel door. Even if you add up your roughly 3 SDC per attack, 4 attacks per round. The logic doesn't hold that in... 8 and a half minutes you can 'Punch' one MDC at 1D6SDC per round. Thus if the cell door had 10mdc, you're not just bare handed punching your way out in 19 minutes of punching the door.

To put it more in context. A human's not going to walk up to an MDC Item, say, a tank, and go "Well MDC is just alot of SDC, so I'm going to start chewing my way in!" and do (Just for ease sake, 1 SDC Per bite, 4 bites per round.. 4 rounds per minute.) So you're not 'chewing' at the rate of 1MDC per 6.5 minutes, chewing on the tank.

An MD Creature would be exactly the same as the tank. You're not going to chew your way through it, just acting like 'It'll take a bit longer to chew' while it might not shatter your teeth (Though it might) The effect would likely be like trying to chew on thick boot leather. You can maw on it all you want but it's not going to break down and be masticated. You're just chewing and wearing down your teeth on something thats not coming apart/getting 'chewed up' or masticated. [/quote]
Correct, but since I am claiming that the flesh is not MDC it doesn't matter does it?
And just to be argumentative we already know that it is possible for SDC attacks to get through MDC... if there are a bunch of the attacks in the same spot. Canon example is the machinegun. Why is that important? Because otherwise we DO get to the ruleslawyering where people try and claim that out-universe game mechanics have actual in-universe physical manifestations. Which is false, unless your going to also pretend that lifting capacity is quantum in the Rifts universe, or any of the other silliness that results from pretending that game stats exist in game.

The rifter article mentioned previously is not 'canon' in that it's not official, but it gives a number of 'ways' that MDC flesh could be transformed/ changed, and thus become edible to sdc creatures. Chemical reactions (Basicly 'damaging' the meat through brine etc, untill it is damaged enough that it 'becomes' sdc., Cooking with MD heat etc.)

Yeah like I said. There is no way in any official material to change MDC material to SDC material. Other than one, rather silly (like April Fools level silly), highly unofficial fanon article in the Rifter.

So while yes, MDC creatures being eaten is mentioned in more than one book, there's no 'canon' explanation as to how. The non cannon explanations fit though, more than thinning MDC Crearures are..

*Effects Pauly Shore voice* "Cruuuuuuunchy on the outside.... sooooft on the inside"

Now with something like a fury beetle.. I could buy it. Hard MDC shell.. gooy buggy (Giant lobster?) insides, but a dinosaur or something, no.

Well sure, like I said, if your willing to completely ignore the stated facts and just make the totally unsuported assumption that everything works a certain way just because it makes it easier to justify using a silly bit of Fanon...

Either way it's not really worth fighting about is it? Roll how ever you like in your game. As there are no -canon- answers in the book. It 'works' how ever your group decides it does.

I would disagree a bit on the 'no canon'. While in the end each persons game is their own to run, I would say that finding out what the rules actually do or do not say about a subject once they have been striped of the accumulated fanon and head canon that has built up on them allows a GM to do things. Especially if they want to have a justification to do something that people are going to look at that fanon, claim its canon and tell them that they are 'doing it wrong'.