How does an SDC creature eat a Mega-Damage critter?

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, do you believe consider SDC flesh to be MDC flesh?

Since not all MDC beings have MDC flesh the question is a red herring that has about as much relevance as asking if Dinosaurs are red meat or white meat (i.e. no relevance to the discussion and has nothing to do what so ever with anything I have said or claimed).

I made statements about MDC flesh.
You've been arguing against the statements.
That's not a red herring; that's the conversation.

I am saying that there isn't any such thing.
Not all MDC creatures have MDC flesh. Some do, but not all.

So... There's no such thing as MDC flesh, and some creatures have MDC flesh.

Gotcha.

[Blue_Lion]

Or was he saying sdc flesh being mdc is something that does not exist.

It is possible that MDC is total resistance of a whole to attack and comes from the parts absorbing the damage and not soft tissues you eat.(we know from the books that sdc can add up to MD and as long as the outer shell takes MD to breach it may not matter than it is 1 MD linked to 100000sdc or 1001MD just staring the damage requires MD so for ease they track it all as MD) You could easily bite the flesh of a cow the bones and hide not so easy, that could be the case of the MD creatures that can be eaten. Some may not be able to be eaten by sdc. It is also possible that they use some method of prep to make the flesh tender so you can eat it.

It could also be the DC is reduced by the scale of the meat to the whole, a 100 pound 35MDC creature might have 35sdc per pound(a 1d6 knife could cut it into 10 peaces for chewing) of flesh before it is tenderized. This can be further reduced by tenderizing the meat.

It realy comes down to if you are trying to find a way to say the books are right and you can eat a dino, or if you are saying the books are wrong and you can't. Logical augments can be made either way.

[taalismn]

Use your discretion. Some may have MDC shells and soft insides, or utterly TOXIC soft insides, or may have striations of MDC tissue(like carbon fiber tendons) through soft stuff. Or may be thoroughly MDC through-and-through like mineraloid or crystalline tissues.

For purposes of quick combat, through, assume that, unless otherwise noted, you're going to have to blast through the listed MDC first before you can kill it, since that seems to be the hang-up people have with regards to using SDC explosives to shock-blast/quick-kill MDC critters. Keep it simple, or if you're aiming for absolute realism, use your own house rules for your game.

In short, free for all madness. The same if you're planning on eating what you kill; use your discretion, and a healthy dollop of the Mega-Chef guidelines. Don't try to maim other diners with your cutlery during the polite dinner conversation.
Bon appetite.

[eliakon]

Again, do you believe consider SDC flesh to be MDC flesh?

Since not all MDC beings have MDC flesh the question is a red herring that has about as much relevance as asking if Dinosaurs are red meat or white meat (i.e. no relevance to the discussion and has nothing to do what so ever with anything I have said or claimed).

I made statements about MDC flesh.
You've been arguing against the statements.
That's not a red herring; that's the conversation.

I am saying that there isn't any such thing.
Not all MDC creatures have MDC flesh. Some do, but not all.

So... There's no such thing as MDC flesh, and some creatures have MDC flesh.

Gotcha.

Not what I said at all.
I said that it is a provable fact that some MDC creatures do not have MDC flesh. Ergo it can be demonstrated that some MDC creatures flesh is simply 'SDC flesh'

It has not been proved by any source that anyone here has provided (other than a simple assertion that it must be so, because it is claimed thus) that any MDC creature has 'MDC flesh' Nor has anyone demonstrated what such would look like, or how it would operate.

This is rather important because the claimed 'MDC flesh' has properties that seem to violate the game and infact can only exist if we posit that rules abstractions exist as actual, testable in universe physical laws AND that MDC is a conserved infinitely divideable quantity (that an object with any amount of MDC subdivided into any number of smaller objects all smaller objects will all remain MDC regardless of size). This is because the claim is that even though a hypothetical animal might be 100 tons, and have 35 MDC (of which apparently all or most of which resides in their skin, since that is what MDC armor is made out of) Any amount of flesh, regardless of size will also magically be MDC. Even though no one has ever demonstrated that this 'MDC Flesh' actually exists...

So really the burden here is on someone to
1) prove the existence of this claimed MDC flesh
and
2) demonstrate the properties of said flesh, ie what does it mean to be MDC flesh, how is MDC conserved, and why is aggregate MDC still always higher (by orders of several magnitudes) than the initial MDC.

Anyone have any actual canon to support this claim that the flesh is MDC?

[taalismn]

Define 'flesh'. The skin? The muscle? The internal organs? Layers of fat? MDC muscle could be a composite of buckyball-like superfibers or supertough single molecule strands of material. MDC organs can be hard, machine-like bio-mechanisms of extremely dense tissue. MD 'fat' might be more like tough polymers that change between liquid and solid states with enyzmic or temperature catalysts. 'Flesh' can be one or a combination of all of them.

[Killer Cyborg]

I made statements about MDC flesh.
You've been arguing against the statements.
That's not a red herring; that's the conversation.

I am saying that there isn't any such thing.
Not all MDC creatures have MDC flesh. Some do, but not all.

So... There's no such thing as MDC flesh, and some creatures have MDC flesh.

Gotcha.

Not what I said at all.

I'm just going to leave this right here for you to look at for a while.

[Killer Cyborg]

Or was he saying sdc flesh being mdc is something that does not exist.

Why the heck would that exist in the first place?
How could it?
And why would he change the topic from what I was talking about to something completely different, in a conversation with me, without explaining that what he was saying was completely unrelated to the conversation that he was in the middle of...?

It realy comes down to if you are trying to find a way to say the books are right and you can eat a dino, or if you are saying the books are wrong and you can't. Logical augments can be made either way.

So far, I haven't seen anybody in this thread claim that the books are wrong.

[Killer Cyborg]

So really the burden here is on someone to
1) prove the existence of this claimed MDC flesh

Ask THIS guy, he seems to know:

Not all MDC creatures have MDC flesh. Some do, but not all.

[eliakon]

So really the burden here is on someone to
1) prove the existence of this claimed MDC flesh

Ask THIS guy, he seems to know:

Not all MDC creatures have MDC flesh. Some do, but not all.

So other than twisting things, out of context, to try and pretend to score points while actually avoiding answering questions...
Then no there isn't any actual canon support for your supposed MDC flesh that you claim exists and makes eating things impossible.

It may exist. Possibly sure. But nothing in canon to say it does. (And no, my out of text comment of my opinion is not canon, unless I have been made a line editor with out my knowing)

Which again brings me to my point. I have demonstrated that the books do have for at least one MDC being with known 'sdc flesh'. There is not though any support, at all, for the counter claim that there is this mythical MDC flesh is there?

Which would then mean that how you eat an MDC creature is "one bite at a time"

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not twisting anything, and I'm not trying to score points.
I seriously have no idea why you think that it makes any kind of sense to simultaneously claim that MDC flesh exists and that it doesn't exist.

Also, if you (sometimes) don't think that MDC exists, why spend so much time arguing against my statement that it's not edible to normal humans...?

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously you said in one sentence that MDC flesh doesn't exist, then in the next two sentences you say that it does. In the same post.
What kind of context do you think I'm skipping....?
What context makes those statements NOT conflict?

[eliakon]

Seriously you said in one sentence that MDC flesh doesn't exist, then in the next two sentences you say that it does. In the same post.
What kind of context do you think I'm skipping....?
What context makes those statements NOT conflict?

The context where I was discussing someone else's discussion?

Or the context where you dismissed the entire thread that it was from as 'fanon' and demanded sourcing? (which is when I discovered that the entire concept of MDC flesh was actually just a fanon meme that has no book support, and thus discarded it)

Or how about the context where the discussion at that time was accepting the (now discredited) claim that there was such a thing in the first place? (accepting someone else's contention unchallenged for the sake of a discussion is not proof of the existence of the contention)

Or maybe the context where I asked for someone to provide actual canon support for the existence of the claimed MDC flesh?

Because right now it looks like the only thing you have to argue here is that I once said that it existed (even though I was only accepting the claim given at the time). And that you don't have any evidence of your own to support the existence of this mythical concept that is the crux of all the claims that MDC creatures can't be eaten.

Seriously. The sole argument right now for the existence of this supposed MDC flesh is that I once accepted other peoples premise that it existed as being possible? That is all you have? Seriously?

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously you said in one sentence that MDC flesh doesn't exist, then in the next two sentences you say that it does. In the same post.
What kind of context do you think I'm skipping....?
What context makes those statements NOT conflict?

The context where I was discussing someone else's discussion?

Why were you discussing somebody else's discussion with me?

Or the context where you dismissed the entire thread that it was from as 'fanon' and demanded sourcing? (which is when I discovered that the entire concept of MDC flesh was actually just a fanon meme that has no book support, and thus discarded it)

No idea what you're talking about there, but I don't think that any context in which you discard the concept of MDC flesh helps me understand why you then proceed to claim that some creatures have MDC flesh.

Or how about the context where the discussion at that time was accepting the (now discredited) claim that there was such a thing in the first place? (accepting someone else's contention unchallenged for the sake of a discussion is not proof of the existence of the contention)

You've lost me again.

Or maybe the context where I asked for someone to provide actual canon support for the existence of the claimed MDC flesh?

You asked somebody to provide canon support for something that you just claimed exists.
That context doesn't clarify things any.

Because right now it looks like the only thing you have to argue here is that I once said that it existed (even though I was only accepting the claim given at the time).

Reread this post:
viewtopic.php?p=2918649#p2918649

Again, do you believe consider SDC flesh to be MDC flesh?

Since not all MDC beings have MDC flesh the question is a red herring that has about as much relevance as asking if Dinosaurs are red meat or white meat (i.e. no relevance to the discussion and has nothing to do what so ever with anything I have said or claimed).

I made statements about MDC flesh.
You've been arguing against the statements.
That's not a red herring; that's the conversation.

I am saying that there isn't any such thing.
Not all MDC creatures have MDC flesh. Some do, but not all.

The sentence where you "once said that it existed" is in the two sentences right after you said that it doesn't exist.

Not in some previous point in the conversation in which you might have once believed something that you changed your mind about.
You said that it exists right AFTER saying that it doesn't exist.
In the same post.
Chronologically after you claimed that it doesn't exist.
In the next two sentences.

You don't see how that could be confusing to anybody?

And that you don't have any evidence of your own to support the existence of this mythical concept that is the crux of all the claims that MDC creatures can't be eaten.

I'm not even at the point of trying to argue against your view.
I'm still at the point of trying to figure out what your view IS, and if you understand what it is, and why you make statements that seem to directly conflict each other.

Clear THAT up, and then maybe we can move on to discuss the validity of whatever it is you're trying to say.

If you made a mis-statement, that's fine. It happens. Just say that you did, and let me know what the mistake was.

But there's no way for anybody to counter-argue against and argument of: "I am saying that there isn't any such thing as MDC flesh. Some creatures have MDC flesh."
Because it's nonsense.

[eliakon]

Here this should clear it up.

I am saying that there is no such thing as canon support for the concept of "MDC Flesh"
My previous statement that said that some flesh was, was a mistake on my part where I foolishly assumed that the people here who were advocating its existence actually knew what they were talking about. Since I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, I foolishly assumed that what they claimed to exist, must actually exist. I know now better. NOW I know that there is probably no MDC flesh. NOW I know that because people would take things out of context to try and use it as proof lf the existence of the non-existant that I should have used the word "may" instead. That is why I said three posts ago that it doesn't canonically exist. Your attempts to pretend otherwise and try to make the conversation look silly by dragging up my one statement where I was agreeing with your, now known to be false, claims as 'proof' that I am being inconsistent are not really logic. They are, at best an attempt to use a red herring to avoid the topic. I am sorry, I did not fully realize that you were more interested in playing semantics games with my words than actually discussing the topic at hand. I shall endeavor to be more precise with my wording in the future.


Is that clear enough? Or will you continue to try and pretend that my previous mistake in believing your false, unsupported claims are sufficient to make my actual argument false and that it must prove your false and unsupported claim?

My claim is this.
I claim that there is canon support for the existence of MDC beings who's flesh is known to be SDC.
I claim that there is canon support for the fact that a being can be classed as MDC if it simply has armored skin
I claim that I am not aware of any text claiming that the flesh of an MDC being is inherently itself MDC.
Thus I am claiming that there is no canon support for the claim that it is any harder to eat an MDC being than it is to eat anything else. There is no special state of being that makes MDC meat indestructible.

I am open to the possibility that there may exist such a thing as "MDC Flesh". I am open because I have not seen anything that says it does not exist nor have I seen anything that says it does exist. In that lack it could, possibly exist. Of course this proves nothing other than the fact that it is rather hard to prove the non-existence of a thing.
Now if someone has some actual canon support for the existence of this so-called MDC-Flesh I would be fascinated to see it.
Until then, simply attempting to score points off of other peoples posts is...well its not a discussion.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, that story doesn't fit the chronology.
You claimed that MDC flesh doesn't exist in one sentence, then in the very next two sentences you claimed that it did exist.

That doesn't fit with you claim that you used to accept that it existed, then realized that it doesn't.
Not unless you were writing that post backwards.

Cut the accusations about scoring points. That's the kind of thing that gets threads shut down, and it's simply untrue.
All I'm looking for is an explanation that fits the facts.

If you don't have one, then whatever. I can just skip that particularly inexplicably post on you part and move on to address the question of whether or not MDC flesh exists, when I get back to my computer and my books.

[eliakon]

Again, that story doesn't fit the chronology.
You claimed that MDC flesh doesn't exist in one sentence, then in the very next two sentences you claimed that it did exist.

That doesn't fit with you claim that you used to accept that it existed, then realized that it doesn't.
Not unless you were writing that post backwards.

Cut the accusations about scoring points. That's the kind of thing that gets threads shut down, and it's simply untrue.
All I'm looking for is an explanation that fits the facts.

If you don't have one, then whatever. I can just skip that particularly inexplicably post on you part and move on to address the question of whether or not MDC flesh exists, when I get back to my computer and my books.

I'll make it easy for you
I'll repost my actual argument

Since this is getting ridiculously long.

Lets look at it again, with out slicing it into fifty sentences.

My claim is that the rules allow for
1)a being to have MDC skin as the source of their MDC status
2) that there is a canon example of at least one MDC being that is known to have SDC flesh
3) that there is no canon way to turn MDC materials into SDC materials
4) that based on the fact that SD tools are used on them, that it would seem that, yes there are SDC components inside MDC vehicles
5) that there is no basis to assume that MDC is infinitely divisible, that is that just because a large object has MDC, that any arbitrarily small amount of it will also have MDC. (or put another way, MDC is not a conserved quantum value in universe)
6) that since there is at least one MDC being that has SDC flesh, it is not unreasonable to claim that there can be others
7) That some MDC beings are canonically eaten by humans, there for it must be possible for humans to eat them

Ergo, my claim is that: Since not only is there is nothing in the rules that says that every part of every MDC being is MDC, but in fact we know that, demonstrably, this is not true, that there is therefore no reason to claim that all the meat on every MDC being is MDC regardless of the size of the piece of meat, where it is cut from, or what being it is taken from.

Secondly that based on the above conclusion, that it is therefore probable that at least some MDC beings meat is no more tough than the meat of a regular SDC being, and therefor no harder to eat than one.

Thus the answer to the question of "how do you eat an MDC being" is "Find one of the MDC beings that has its MDC status provided by natural armor, or by a supernatural effect that fades upon death. Kill the being, and then consume the non-armor portions"

Note that my argument does still allow for the possibility of MDC flesh, assuming that someone can actually come up with evidence of it.

Now if you could please try to actually argue the argument, and not play word games with my posts we might get something done.

[Killer Cyborg]

If anybody is playing word games, it's the guy saying that MDC flesh doesn't exist, but some creatures have it, but it doesn't exist, but it might exist.

[guardiandashi]

If anybody is playing word games, it's the guy saying that MDC flesh doesn't exist, but some creatures have it, but it doesn't exist, but it might exist.

KC in the last 5 posts he was NOT doing that and you kept going back to his acknowledged erroneous statement and moving the goalposts because he made a mistake by accepting that people who made a claim not fully in evidence were right.

as I am looking at it from what I remember IN the rifts books:

hunting things like rabbits or (sdc) deer with a MD weapon even such a relatively weak one as the OLD coalition laser pistol is a bad idea because:
you hit the rabbit and its going to be a splattered grease spot.
you hit the deer in the head and definitely the head, likely much of the neck and possibly more of the body is going to be useless for food purposes.

on the other hand there MAY be a MDC rabbit that is NOT a dragon
there definitely was a "deamon Deer" that you HAVE to use MDC weapons to kill

now the question is: is it possible that some of the "mdc critters" like the mentioned "mdc rabbit" has mdc flesh and so is partially or totally mdc throughout. On the other hand there are cases such as Dinosaurs where it is likely that the vast majority of the creature is not actually MDC it just has so much SDC that it is treated as MDC for damage purposes. I mean heck a large dino might literally have feet of flesh between the skin and bones, and who cares if the first 6 inches to a foot of meat get turned into pink slime (say 5lbs or so) when you can still harvest literally tones of meat off the carcass.

[Killer Cyborg]

If anybody is playing word games, it's the guy saying that MDC flesh doesn't exist, but some creatures have it, but it doesn't exist, but it might exist.

KC in the last 5 posts he was NOT doing that and you kept going back to his acknowledged erroneous statement and moving the goalposts because he made a mistake by accepting that people who made a claim not fully in evidence were right.

As I've pointed out to him, that "acknowledgement" doesn't fit the facts.
If he started off saying, "MDC flesh exists," then went to "MDC flesh doesn't exist" and stuck there, that'd be one thing.
But he went from "I'm saying MDC flesh does not exist" directly to "some creatures have MDC flesh," and that doesn't fit his explanation.
Unless, as I said, he was writing the post backward.

And in his latest post, he's gone back to saying that it MIGHT exist... while still saying that it doesn't.

So... yeah, I'm not buying his explanation because it doesn't make sense.

Which might not matter, except he keeps accusing anybody who disagrees with him of being dishonest, of playing word games, and so on, and so forth.
If he's going to throw stones, then he needs to move out of the glass house.
If he's going to ask for quarter, then he should start off by giving it.
For somebody who demands that other people understand whatever he means over what he actually says, then he should pay more attention to other people's words.

Now that I'm back at my keyboard, with access to my books, I can skip over the inconsistencies for now and focus on the question of whether MDC flesh exists.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, that story doesn't fit the chronology.
You claimed that MDC flesh doesn't exist in one sentence, then in the very next two sentences you claimed that it did exist.

That doesn't fit with you claim that you used to accept that it existed, then realized that it doesn't.
Not unless you were writing that post backwards.

Cut the accusations about scoring points. That's the kind of thing that gets threads shut down, and it's simply untrue.
All I'm looking for is an explanation that fits the facts.

If you don't have one, then whatever. I can just skip that particularly inexplicably post on you part and move on to address the question of whether or not MDC flesh exists, when I get back to my computer and my books.

I'll make it easy for you
I'll repost my actual argument

I'm responding to your actual posts.
If they weren't your actual argument, then I'm kinda curious what you think your posts--the words that you've been typing into your keyboard and posting online--really were... but whatever.

Since this is getting ridiculously long.

Lets look at it again, with out slicing it into fifty sentences.

My claim is that the rules allow for
1) a being to have MDC skin as the source of their MDC status

Kind of. It depends on how literally you want to go with the word "skin."
RMB 12
Many supernatural creatures, such as dragons, vampires, many demons, and others have natural protective armor covering or MDC skin, or their supernatural essence makes them a mega-damage structure.

That passage--as well as some other passages in other books--talks about "MDC skin" or MDC hide" protecting the beings from mega-damage, but such passages can be taken in one of several ways.
The first way is strictly literal--only the hide/skin is MDC, and the rest is SDC.
The second way is partially literal--the passage emphasizes skin/hide, but it's logical to assume that there's more of these creatures that's MDC than just the skin/hide.
The third way is mostly metaphorical--yes, their skin is MDC, because all* of them is MDC as a rule.

*All doesn't mean literally every part of them. It's hard to imagine MDC blood, for example, and it's hard to imagine that every molecule within their body has 1+ MDC.


Edit:
While I'm quoting that passage, give it a real good look:
"Many...creatures...have natural protective armor covering or MDC skin, or their supernatural essence makes them a mega-damage structure."

Many creatures have "MDC skin," OR being supernatural/magic "makes them" MDC.
To me, if "they" are "a mega-damage structure," that indicates that they are MDC throughout, not just on the skin level, especially when presented as the alternative to "MDC skin," whatever that entails.

2) that there is a canon example of at least one MDC being that is known to have SDC flesh

Which? Borgs?
If so, then kindly refer me to the passage that states that they have SDC flesh.
If not, then kindly refer me to whichever creature you are talking about.

3) that there is no canon way to turn MDC materials into SDC materials

Incorrect.
-You can take MDC creatures/objects from MDC settings to SDC settings.
-An SDC creature/object which as undergone a temporary transformation into MDC can transform back to SDC.
-There might be some other ways as well that I can't recall at the moment.

4) that based on the fact that SD tools are used on them, that it would seem that, yes there are SDC components inside MDC vehicles

Can you cite the passages that describe which tools are used on MDC vehicles, and the manner in which they're used?

5) that there is no basis to assume that MDC is infinitely divisible, that is that just because a large object has MDC, that any arbitrarily small amount of it will also have MDC. (or put another way, MDC is not a conserved quantum value in universe)

Agreed. Yet you took issue with the idea that MDC structures that are "tenderized" would eventually break down into SDC structures.
So where does that leave us? With MDC structures that are reduced to 0 MDC break down into other MDC structures, up to a certain point in which case they entirely vanish?

6) that since there is at least one MDC being that has SDC flesh, it is not unreasonable to claim that there can be others

Logical, but contingent on the premise that there is in fact one MDC being that has SDC flesh.
So I can't further comment at this time.

7) That some MDC beings are canonically eaten by humans, there for it must be possible for humans to eat them

Of course. Nobody has argued against that issue that I have noticed.
What I have stated is that MDC flesh would not be edible to humans.
(MDC flesh) does not equal (flesh from MDC creatures), although there is some overlap.

Ergo, my claim is that: Since not only is there is nothing in the rules that says that every part of every MDC being is MDC, but in fact we know that, demonstrably, this is not true, that there is therefore no reason to claim that all the meat on every MDC being is MDC regardless of the size of the piece of meat, where it is cut from, or what being it is taken from.

This gets us back to the idea of Secret SDC Flesh, which seems strange and convoluted to me.
Like you kill a dinosaur, then you go through it thinking, "I can't eat THAT part, because it's Mega-Damage, but this cut of dino-steak is SDC steak, so I'll cut that part out..."
It doesn't make much sense to me.

Or perhaps you're saying "Everything other than the actual skin is SDC," but that makes very little sense either, since a 25 ton dinosaur would have a significant amount of SDC and HP... but those are never once listed, referred to, or indicated that I am aware of.
It would also make killing many MDC creatures absurdly easy, vulnerable to Called Shots from even SDC weapons to the eyes, mouth, and other areas of the body not protected by MDC skin/hide.

Secondly that based on the above conclusion, that it is therefore probable that at least some MDC beings meat is no more tough than the meat of a regular SDC being, and therefor no harder to eat than one.

I disagree regarding probability, instead assuming that there are a number of more probable ways, including tenderization of some kind, or natural decay, or creatures reverting to SDC after death.

Thus the answer to the question of "how do you eat an MDC being" is "Find one of the MDC beings that has its MDC status provided by natural armor, or by a supernatural effect that fades upon death. Kill the being, and then consume the non-armor portions"
Note that my argument does still allow for the possibility of MDC flesh, assuming that someone can actually come up with evidence of it.

Noted.

Now if you could please try to actually argue the argument, and not play word games with my posts we might get something done.

When you make contradictory statements, and other people call you out on them, and you give explanations that do not make any logical sense, then THEY are not the ones playing games.
FYI.

If you people to address your arguments, then you need to make them in a non-contradictory fashion, to avoid needless hostilities and accusations, and to make your arguments simple and easy to understand (including citing and quoting supporting passages from official sources whenever possible).

[eliakon]

Again, that story doesn't fit the chronology.
You claimed that MDC flesh doesn't exist in one sentence, then in the very next two sentences you claimed that it did exist.

That doesn't fit with you claim that you used to accept that it existed, then realized that it doesn't.
Not unless you were writing that post backwards.

Cut the accusations about scoring points. That's the kind of thing that gets threads shut down, and it's simply untrue.
All I'm looking for is an explanation that fits the facts.

If you don't have one, then whatever. I can just skip that particularly inexplicably post on you part and move on to address the question of whether or not MDC flesh exists, when I get back to my computer and my books.

I'll make it easy for you
I'll repost my actual argument

I'm responding to your actual posts.
If they weren't your actual argument, then I'm kinda curious what you think your posts--the words that you've been typing into your keyboard and posting online--really were... but whatever.

It looks like your more interested in trolling me about grammar than actually talk about the topic is why I am saying this.

Since this is getting ridiculously long.

Lets look at it again, with out slicing it into fifty sentences.

My claim is that the rules allow for
1) a being to have MDC skin as the source of their MDC status

Kind of. It depends on how literally you want to go with the word "skin."
RMB 12
Many supernatural creatures, such as dragons, vampires, many demons, and others have natural protective armor covering or MDC skin, or their supernatural essence makes them a mega-damage structure.

That passage--as well as some other passages in other books--talks about "MDC skin" or MDC hide" protecting the beings from mega-damage, but such passages can be taken in one of several ways.
The first way is strictly literal--only the hide/skin is MDC, and the rest is SDC.
The second way is partially literal--the passage emphasizes skin/hide, but it's logical to assume that there's more of these creatures that's MDC than just the skin/hide.
The third way is mostly metaphorical--yes, their skin is MDC, because all* of them is MDC as a rule.

*All doesn't mean literally every part of them. It's hard to imagine MDC blood, for example, and it's hard to imagine that every molecule within their body has 1+ MDC.


Edit:
While I'm quoting that passage, give it a real good look:
"Many...creatures...have natural protective armor covering or MDC skin, or their supernatural essence makes them a mega-damage structure."

Many creatures have "MDC skin," OR being supernatural/magic "makes them" MDC.
To me, if "they" are "a mega-damage structure," that indicates that they are MDC throughout, not just on the skin level, especially when presented as the alternative to "MDC skin," whatever that entails.

So, what you are saying is that some how having megadamage skin, automatically makes you megadamage through out your entire body?
How?
Do you have any book support for the claim that 'armored skin' means 'entire body'?
Because the book simply says "armored skin" and 'considered" That is a pretty far cry from "is entirely megadamage through out its structure and substructures" and a radical change like that is going to need its own support

2) that there is a canon example of at least one MDC being that is known to have SDC flesh

Which? Borgs?
If so, then kindly refer me to the passage that states that they have SDC flesh.
If not, then kindly refer me to whichever creature you are talking about.

Human's are SDC
Bionic componets add MDC alloys to human flesh
The human flesh is not changed in any way.
Ergo, the flesh is still SDC. Unless there is some text somewhere that says that the unaltered parts of a borg suddenly transform?

3) that there is no canon way to turn MDC materials into SDC materials

Incorrect.
-You can take MDC creatures/objects from MDC settings to SDC settings.
-An SDC creature/object which as undergone a temporary transformation into MDC can transform back to SDC.
-There might be some other ways as well that I can't recall at the moment.

Neither of which is actually turning an MDC material into an SDC material.
This is yet more of the semantics game I was talking about. If a material is MDC, then it is MDC. If it is temporarily turned into MDC, then it is not really an MDC material. If you move it to a dimension that doesn't have MDC, it is still what ever it was, and when it comes back to an MDC universe it is MDC.
I am talking about actual state changes, not playing semantics games.
This is rather important because the claim you were making about 'tenderizing' the flesh requires such a state change. A change that I do not believe is canon.

4) that based on the fact that SD tools are used on them, that it would seem that, yes there are SDC components inside MDC vehicles

Can you cite the passages that describe which tools are used on MDC vehicles, and the manner in which they're used?

The various laser tools which were described as being used for working on high tech machinery? The ones that do not do MD?
Or are we going to go back to the 'every single scrap of every thing that is MDC is itself MDC. Every rivet, every screw, every microchip?
I need you to pick one or the other? Are you, or are you not, claiming this?
Its a binary question. Either every subcomponent no matter what, of anything that has MDC is MDC OR there are SDC subcomponents in MDC devices. pick one.

5) that there is no basis to assume that MDC is infinitely divisible, that is that just because a large object has MDC, that any arbitrarily small amount of it will also have MDC. (or put another way, MDC is not a conserved quantum value in universe)

Agreed. Yet you took issue with the idea that MDC structures that are "tenderized" would eventually break down into SDC structures.
So where does that leave us? With MDC structures that are reduced to 0 MDC break down into other MDC structures, up to a certain point in which case they entirely vanish?

Your making a false equivocation here.
I am saying that cutting a 1 ton object that has 1 MDC into 6 oz pieces results in pieces that do not have MDC. There is no need to 'tenderize' it, because it is not MDC once cut up that small.

6) that since there is at least one MDC being that has SDC flesh, it is not unreasonable to claim that there can be others

Logical, but contingent on the premise that there is in fact one MDC being that has SDC flesh.
So I can't further comment at this time.

Human Borgs. Unless you are seriously going to argue that the non-augmented pieces of a borg suddenly turn into MDC.

7) That some MDC beings are canonically eaten by humans, there for it must be possible for humans to eat them

Of course. Nobody has argued against that issue that I have noticed.
What I have stated is that MDC flesh would not be edible to humans.
(MDC flesh) does not equal (flesh from MDC creatures), although there is some overlap.

I am saying that there since we know people eat these things, that a claim that these things are inedible falls flat on its face.

Ergo, my claim is that: Since not only is there is nothing in the rules that says that every part of every MDC being is MDC, but in fact we know that, demonstrably, this is not true, that there is therefore no reason to claim that all the meat on every MDC being is MDC regardless of the size of the piece of meat, where it is cut from, or what being it is taken from.

This gets us back to the idea of Secret SDC Flesh, which seems strange and convoluted to me.
Like you kill a dinosaur, then you go through it thinking, "I can't eat THAT part, because it's Mega-Damage, but this cut of dino-steak is SDC steak, so I'll cut that part out..."
It doesn't make much sense to me.

Or perhaps you're saying "Everything other than the actual skin is SDC," but that makes very little sense either, since a 25 ton dinosaur would have a significant amount of SDC and HP... but those are never once listed, referred to, or indicated that I am aware of.
It would also make killing many MDC creatures absurdly easy, vulnerable to Called Shots from even SDC weapons to the eyes, mouth, and other areas of the body not protected by MDC skin/hide.

Neither of which is actually possible RAW.
As I said, MDC is a game mechanic. Attempting to claim that an abstracted game mechanic has some actual in-universe value is absurd.
The creature is treated as if it an MDC being. Period. Just like a human borg is treated like an MDC being, even if you make a called shot to some part of it, or shoot it with a phase beamer, or a necro-bolt. The rules say "well yeah, nice...we are just treating anything with MDC as being fully MDC for game purposes" Attempting to claim that something like a dinosaur should get treated differently, and that this houseruled different treatment proves that the rule on MDC creatures doesn't exist is specious at best.

Secondly that based on the above conclusion, that it is therefore probable that at least some MDC beings meat is no more tough than the meat of a regular SDC being, and therefor no harder to eat than one.

I disagree regarding probability, instead assuming that there are a number of more probable ways, including tenderization of some kind, or natural decay, or creatures reverting to SDC after death.

Again your welcome to. Do you have anything besides "well I want it to work this way, even though there is no rules to support this"?
Especially since as I have said before, the entire claim that there is in fact MDC flesh in the first place seems to be only supported by the assertion that it must exist because some players believe it must exist.

Thus the answer to the question of "how do you eat an MDC being" is "Find one of the MDC beings that has its MDC status provided by natural armor, or by a supernatural effect that fades upon death. Kill the being, and then consume the non-armor portions"
Note that my argument does still allow for the possibility of MDC flesh, assuming that someone can actually come up with evidence of it.

Noted.

Now if you could please try to actually argue the argument, and not play word games with my posts we might get something done.

When you make contradictory statements, and other people call you out on them, and you give explanations that do not make any logical sense, then THEY are not the ones playing games.
FYI.

If you people to address your arguments, then you need to make them in a non-contradictory fashion, to avoid needless hostilities and accusations, and to make your arguments simple and easy to understand (including citing and quoting supporting passages from official sources whenever possible).

I don't consider trolling from people playing semantics games, who refuse to accept clarifications, and claim that no matter what you say it really doesn't matter because they want to quote something out of context that you have already tried to clarify as anything but needlessly hostile, and since you have refused to provide any citations for your own claims other than to simply assert that it is so I really find the claim that mine are insufficiently cited.

[Pepsi Jedi]

For the record. Getting a bionic arm doesn't turn the entire human into an MDC being as you seem to be indicating. Your SDC bits are still SDC. The arm may be MD but it doesn't confer you a 'main body" MDC, just because you stuck on an arm there, Winter Soldier.

More over the books do not indicate any sort of "Crunchy on the outside but gooy on the inside" sort of aspect to MDC creatures. having MDC skin doesn't mean you have SDC insides.

MDC creatures are listed with.... MDC. Not MDC 'armor' and "SDC" insides. (You know.. like.. humans in armor) As pointed out, where this the case the stat blocks would look very different.

if the 'MDC skin/SDC Insides was a thing, then a Dinosaur would have his MDC and then many hundred or thousands of SDC on the inside.

The entire thing is further complicated by using a term such as 'flesh' yet not defining it.

"Flesh" Might be defined as "Skin" Meaning the first few layers of skin but not the meat and muscle under.
"Flesh" Might be defined as the skin and the muscle down to the bone.

The two are vastly different and 'flesh' doesn't seem to imply organs in either case. Reguardless MDC creatures in rifts are not broken down into MDC/SDC bits.

They have "MDC" Thus.. via the rules that's "ALL" They have. is MDC. Thus by that nature, yes the 'Skin" the "Flesh" the bones and everything are MDC.

"Well does one cubic millimeter of MDC flesh have 1 MD even if the entire being only has 30 MD?"

To that I would ask "Does one cubic milimter of SDC flesh have 1 SDC, even tough the full human might only have 10 or 20 sdc?"

The answer is going to be "The rules don't break down that far. For either event.

The NATURE of MDC is that it doesn't take ANY DAMAGE, unless that damage is sufficent enough to produce OVER 100 SDC in an instant.

So you could hit an MDC item with50.. 75 SDC attacks over and over and not scratch it, because they do not reach that threshhold to damage it in the slightest. "But what about machine guns?" (As it's already been thrown out there. Machine guns shoot so fast that the damage is considered in 'one instant'. Thus allowing them to stack with 50.. 100 rounds in a second or two.

I again point you back to the fact that (baring super powers or something of that nature) a normal SDC human isn't going to chew his way through an MDC battle tank. No matter how many times he bites it. Minor SDC attacks don't 'add up' to MDC. (For that matter you can't punch a prison cell door 100 times to exceed it's SDC and get out that way either)

[Killer Cyborg]

If they weren't your actual argument, then I'm kinda curious what you think your posts--the words that you've been typing into your keyboard and posting online--really were... but whatever.

It looks like your more interested in trolling me about grammar than actually talk about the topic is why I am saying this.

You claiming in one sentence that MDC flesh does not exist, then claiming in the next sentence that it does exist is not a grammar issue.
Me calling you out on it isn't trolling.

Why are we still talking about this?
You gave an explanation that doesn't fit the facts, but I'm pretty sure that at this point neither you nor I are going to get any further by arguing about whatever the heck you meant.

Since this is getting ridiculously long.

Lets look at it again, with out slicing it into fifty sentences.

My claim is that the rules allow for
1) a being to have MDC skin as the source of their MDC status

Kind of. It depends on how literally you want to go with the word "skin."
RMB 12
Many supernatural creatures, such as dragons, vampires, many demons, and others have natural protective armor covering or MDC skin, or their supernatural essence makes them a mega-damage structure.

That passage--as well as some other passages in other books--talks about "MDC skin" or MDC hide" protecting the beings from mega-damage, but such passages can be taken in one of several ways.
The first way is strictly literal--only the hide/skin is MDC, and the rest is SDC.
The second way is partially literal--the passage emphasizes skin/hide, but it's logical to assume that there's more of these creatures that's MDC than just the skin/hide.
The third way is mostly metaphorical--yes, their skin is MDC, because all* of them is MDC as a rule.

*All doesn't mean literally every part of them. It's hard to imagine MDC blood, for example, and it's hard to imagine that every molecule within their body has 1+ MDC.


Edit:
While I'm quoting that passage, give it a real good look:
"Many...creatures...have natural protective armor covering or MDC skin, or their supernatural essence makes them a mega-damage structure."

Many creatures have "MDC skin," OR being supernatural/magic "makes them" MDC.
To me, if "they" are "a mega-damage structure," that indicates that they are MDC throughout, not just on the skin level, especially when presented as the alternative to "MDC skin," whatever that entails.

So, what you are saying is that some how having megadamage skin, automatically makes you megadamage through out your entire body?

WOW.
No.
Try reading that again.

2) that there is a canon example of at least one MDC being that is known to have SDC flesh

Which? Borgs?
If so, then kindly refer me to the passage that states that they have SDC flesh.
If not, then kindly refer me to whichever creature you are talking about.

Human's are SDC
Bionic componets add MDC alloys to human flesh
The human flesh is not changed in any way.
Ergo, the flesh is still SDC. Unless there is some text somewhere that says that the unaltered parts of a borg suddenly transform?

Borgs are MDC creatures. There is no commentary that I'm aware of describing whether or not their human organs remain SDC, therefore we do not know for certain whether or not their human organs remain SDC.
You are free to make assumptions, of course, but kindly do not state those assumptions as fact.

3) that there is no canon way to turn MDC materials into SDC materials

Incorrect.
-You can take MDC creatures/objects from MDC settings to SDC settings.
-An SDC creature/object which as undergone a temporary transformation into MDC can transform back to SDC.
-There might be some other ways as well that I can't recall at the moment.

Neither of which is actually turning an MDC material into an SDC material.

Care to explain the reasoning behind that statement?

This is yet more of the semantics game I was talking about. If a material is MDC, then it is MDC. If it is temporarily turned into MDC, then it is not really an MDC material. If you move it to a dimension that doesn't have MDC, it is still what ever it was, and when it comes back to an MDC universe it is MDC.

Yes, that is indeed a semantics game.

But I'm going to just kind of ignore it, because it's nonsense.
Whether or not a material is MDC or SDC depends entirely on its actual damage capacity, not on its potential damage capacity.
A Glitter Boy in an SDC setting is no longer a "MDC material."
Try again.

I am talking about actual state changes, not playing semantics games.
This is rather important because the claim you were making about 'tenderizing' the flesh requires such a state change. A change that I do not believe is canon.

For your clarification, one of the possibilities that I've repeatedly mentioned is the idea that some MDC creatures--particularly those who are only MDC due to the magical energies of Rifts Earth--may revert to SDC beings after death.
Such an event would be an SDC creature that became Mega-Damage temporarily due to supernatural influences returning to its proper SDC state.

The tenderization angle isn't relevant here.

4) that based on the fact that SD tools are used on them, that it would seem that, yes there are SDC components inside MDC vehicles

Can you cite the passages that describe which tools are used on MDC vehicles, and the manner in which they're used?

The various laser tools which were described as being used for working on high tech machinery?

Okay, that'll do.
Please cite the passages that describe those laser tools working on MDC high-tech machinery.

The ones that do not do MD?

For example...?

Or are we going to go back to the 'every single scrap of every thing that is MDC is itself MDC. Every rivet, every screw, every microchip?

We're going back to "If you're going to make a claim, make it clear, and cite your sources."

5) that there is no basis to assume that MDC is infinitely divisible, that is that just because a large object has MDC, that any arbitrarily small amount of it will also have MDC. (or put another way, MDC is not a conserved quantum value in universe)

Agreed. Yet you took issue with the idea that MDC structures that are "tenderized" would eventually break down into SDC structures.
So where does that leave us? With MDC structures that are reduced to 0 MDC break down into other MDC structures, up to a certain point in which case they entirely vanish?

Your making a false equivocation here.
I am saying that cutting a 1 ton object that has 1 MDC into 6 oz pieces results in pieces that do not have MDC.

Okay... so what DO they have?
SDC, perhaps?

If so, then you've just described what I'm talking about; reducing MDC objects into SDC objects by breaking them down.

There is no need to 'tenderize' it, because it is not MDC once cut up that small.

That would BE the tenderization process that I've been describing, and that you've been arguing against.

6) that since there is at least one MDC being that has SDC flesh, it is not unreasonable to claim that there can be others

Logical, but contingent on the premise that there is in fact one MDC being that has SDC flesh.
So I can't further comment at this time.

Human Borgs. Unless you are seriously going to argue that the non-augmented pieces of a borg suddenly turn into MDC.

If they do become MDC, then there need not be anything sudden about it. It would be part of the process of becoming "the synthesis of man and machine."

7) That some MDC beings are canonically eaten by humans, there for it must be possible for humans to eat them

Of course. Nobody has argued against that issue that I have noticed.
What I have stated is that MDC flesh would not be edible to humans.
(MDC flesh) does not equal (flesh from MDC creatures), although there is some overlap.

I am saying that there since we know people eat these things, that a claim that these things are inedible falls flat on its face.

Since nobody has made the claim that the creatures that are canonically eaten are inedible, I have no idea why you're bothering to make this statement.

Ergo, my claim is that: Since not only is there is nothing in the rules that says that every part of every MDC being is MDC, but in fact we know that, demonstrably, this is not true, that there is therefore no reason to claim that all the meat on every MDC being is MDC regardless of the size of the piece of meat, where it is cut from, or what being it is taken from.

This gets us back to the idea of Secret SDC Flesh, which seems strange and convoluted to me.
Like you kill a dinosaur, then you go through it thinking, "I can't eat THAT part, because it's Mega-Damage, but this cut of dino-steak is SDC steak, so I'll cut that part out..."
It doesn't make much sense to me.

Or perhaps you're saying "Everything other than the actual skin is SDC," but that makes very little sense either, since a 25 ton dinosaur would have a significant amount of SDC and HP... but those are never once listed, referred to, or indicated that I am aware of.
It would also make killing many MDC creatures absurdly easy, vulnerable to Called Shots from even SDC weapons to the eyes, mouth, and other areas of the body not protected by MDC skin/hide.

Neither of which is actually possible RAW.

Okay, explain THAT one!!!

As I said, MDC is a game mechanic. Attempting to claim that an abstracted game mechanic has some actual in-universe value is absurd.

Characters within the game refer to "mega-damage."
How/why do they do that if there's no actual in-universe value to the term...?

The creature is treated as if it an MDC being. Period. Just like a human borg is treated like an MDC being, even if you make a called shot to some part of it, or shoot it with a phase beamer, or a necro-bolt. The rules say "well yeah, nice...we are just treating anything with MDC as being fully MDC for game purposes" Attempting to claim that something like a dinosaur should get treated differently, and that this houseruled different treatment proves that the rule on MDC creatures doesn't exist is specious at best.

So... are you saying that some of their steaks are SDC and some are MDC, or that dinos have 80 MDC (for example) just in their skin, and the rest of their 25 ton mass worth of damage capacity isn't statted, or what...?

Secondly that based on the above conclusion, that it is therefore probable that at least some MDC beings meat is no more tough than the meat of a regular SDC being, and therefor no harder to eat than one.

I disagree regarding probability, instead assuming that there are a number of more probable ways, including tenderization of some kind, or natural decay, or creatures reverting to SDC after death.

Again your welcome to. Do you have anything besides "well I want it to work this way, even though there is no rules to support this"?

Basic logic, which I have already explained.
If there are points that you are unclear on, feel free to ask questions or to review my previous posts.

When you make contradictory statements, and other people call you out on them, and you give explanations that do not make any logical sense, then THEY are not the ones playing games.
FYI.

If you people to address your arguments, then you need to make them in a non-contradictory fashion, to avoid needless hostilities and accusations, and to make your arguments simple and easy to understand (including citing and quoting supporting passages from official sources whenever possible).

I don't consider trolling from people playing semantics games, who refuse to accept clarifications, and claim that no matter what you say it really doesn't matter because they want to quote something out of context that you have already tried to clarify as anything but needlessly hostile, and since you have refused to provide any citations for your own claims other than to simply assert that it is so I really find the claim that mine are insufficiently cited.

You might want to check your own hostility before throwing stones.
Seriously, you constantly accuse other people of trolling, of playing semantic games, of "refusing to accept" your arguments, and all sorts of other insulting things. Don't be shocked when some of the crap you dish out gets tossed back at you.

And if you wish me to cite any support that I have not already covered, then by all means let me know which of my statements you believe are unsupported.
(Just be sure to provide me with a direct quote of my claim, NOT with a summary of what you think that I said or meant at some vague point in the past)

[Killer Cyborg]

On the subject of MDC Flesh vs. MDC skin:

CB1 21
An MDC creature is a being whose physical body is so tough, or armored, that it functions as a natural mega-damage body armor, enabling it to withstand mega-damage attacks of all sorts.
(Not whose skin is so tough or armored.)

Natural MDC works just like Hit Points
(Hit Points do not represent just the skin. Hit Points (RMB 9-10) "might best be thought of as life points, because they indicate how much physical damage (cuts, bruises, etc.) a character can withstand before he/she dies."
"SDC damage is painful, but not deadly."
"Hit Point damage is serious, and potentially life-threatening."
Natural MDC working "just like Hit Points" indicates that natural MDC is perhaps more than just thick skin.)

...supernatural creatures like elementals and demons are typically transformed into mega-damage beings when they enter the PPE enriched environment of Rifts.
("Transformed into," not "have their skin transformed into." When one thing is transformed into another, it's more than just the skin. If a spell transforms you into stone or an animal, it's not just a skin-deep effect.)

CB1 22
Creatures of Magic likewise, upon coming to Rifts Earth become mega-damage creatures.
(Not "their skin becomes mega-damage." The creatures themselves become Mega-Damage creatures. Not SDC creatures with MDC skin.)

Minor monsters with a link to the supernatural or magic: simply convert their normal SDC and Hit Points into MDC points.
(Again, Hit Points become MDC. Hit Points represent damage that is more than just skin deep.)

CB1 26
Supernatural beings and creatures of magic, like the dragon, possess inhuman or superhuman strength... the supernatural element of their essence gives them mega-damage strength, endurance, and, in many cases, makes them natural MDC creatures (flesh like mega-damage steel).

(Natural MDC creatures have flesh like mega-damage steel.)

Supernatural beings and Creatures of Magic are enhanced by the enormous amount of magic energy in the Rifts Earth environment; they...become Mega-damage creatures...
(Again, BECOME, not "have their skin turned into.")

RMB 256
Dinosaurs are mega-damage creatures too, although, thankfully, not as tough as most supernatural creatures.

CB1 40
The hit points of mutant dinosaurs and prehistoric mammals become mega-damage on Rifts Earth.

(Hit Points represent serious injury, not just skin-deep injury. When mutant dinos spend the Bio-E on Thick Skin or armor, such powers add to their SDC, not to their Hit Points.)

SB1 115
The Brodkil are a race of superhuman giants who are natural MDC creatures. They are apparently of supernatural origin, but do not possess significant powers other than superhuman strength, MDC body, and the ability to turn invisible.

(Reinforcing that "natural MDC creatures" have "MDC bodies," not just "MDC skin."

DS 10
The magic energies of Rifts Earth and the very nature of dinosaurs makes dinosaurs Mega-Damage creatures with hides as tough as MDC metal...
(Note that having hides as tough as MDC metal does NOT preclude having flesh or bones as tough as MDC metal, then read the following passage...)

DS 11
Head shots, especially to the eye, are extremely difficult targets to hit...other, vital shots include the legs, especially the knee and ankle joints, the base of the spine wher ethe tail intersects with the main body, or anywhere along the neck are excellent places to wound a dinosaur in order to slow it down for a second or third kill shot....
From a game mechanics point of view, each of these attacks would be considered Critical Strikes, and could possibly do as much as triple damage...
(Long story short, a Called Shot to the eye nets out in game terms as x3 damage, which would come off of their MDC, not off of unstatted SDC/HP somewhere that exists in spite of all the places where we're told that MDC acts as Hit Points.)

DS 79
Another note on arrowheads, when hunting large animals, such as certain types of dinosaurs, the arrowhead is typically coated with a toxin. The arrowhead does negligible damage to such a large beast, but is enough to pierce their tough, mega-damage hide, introducing the toxin to the animal's system, weakening it for the protracted kill.

(The damage for arrowheads is 1-2 MD. That's all that it takes to pierce a dinosaur's Mega-Damage hide. When a dinosaur with 400 MDC is hit by a laser blast for 20 MD, or stabbed by a vibro-blade for 12 MD, where's the damage go, if not into the flesh behind that hide?)

[eliakon]

Since I can see that there is no interest in actually the questions here, just playing semantic games, shifting goal posts, circular reasoning, arguments from verbosity, shifted burdens, and other logic games I am going to bow out.

[Damian Magecraft]

Let's review shall we?
Fact: the books state there are mdc critters in rifts.
Fact: the books state that some mdc critters are bred and hunted for meat by humans (and other non mdc types).
What can we derive from these two CANON statements?
Only one thing...
Some MDC critters are edible by sdc critters after death.
That is all we can establish from the given data.

Try not to over think things guys.

[Pepsi Jedi]

He's right. *nodnod*

[Killer Cyborg]

Since I can see that there is no interest in actually the questions here, just playing semantic games, shifting goal posts, circular reasoning, arguments from verbosity, shifted burdens, and other logic games I am going to bow out.

But not before trolling with insults one more time, after your premise that "there's no such thing as MDC flesh" has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

[Killer Cyborg]

Let's review shall we?
Fact: the books state there are mdc critters in rifts.
Fact: the books state that some mdc critters are bred and hunted for meat by humans (and other non mdc types).
What can we derive from these two CANON statements?
Only one thing...
Some MDC critters are edible by sdc critters after death.
That is all we can establish from the given data.

Try not to over think things guys.

I was mostly with you until that last sentence.

The topic of this thread is "How does an SDC creature eat a Mega-Damage critter?"
It is not "Can an SDC creature eat a Mega-Damage creature."

I agree that what you've posted is most of what we know for certain from canon, but the topic of conversation is about how it might be possible for SDC creatures to devour creatures that are tougher than steel.
I don't think telling the OP to "not overthink things" is a great answer. It's a question that deserves answers, canon or not, because it's the kind of thing that can interfere with willing suspension of disbelief and can damage setting credibility.

As I originally said, there are only three different options that I can see:
1. Certain MDC creatures revert to SDC creatures after death (either at the instant of death, or after some kind of mega-decomposers go to work on the corpse).
2. Mega-Damage flesh can be rendered into SDC flesh by some unknown means.
3. Indirect consumption is used that involves obtaining nutrients and calories without devouring MDC muscle tissue or flesh. I don't feel that my back and forth with eliakon has been all that productive, but it has highlighted the fact that it'd be hard to argue that every component of a MDC creature is necessarily MDC. Blood, for example, seems like it would be difficult to argue is an "MDC structure." Fats, or certain kinds of fats, as mentioned by the OP, might be another example.
(Of course, the dinos in New West have notes like "the meat is tasty," which--unless the comments are meant for MDC creatures--indicates that dinosaur MDC meat is somehow made edible to SDC beings at some point)

As a Game Master, I would say that all three possibilities have some value.

I would personally be a big advocate of the idea that most supernatural creatures lose their mega-damage upon death, because that's a simple explanation that would resolve not only this question, but also the question of how long it takes MDC corpses to decompose, and whether or not decomposition is SDC or Mega-Damage.
It would leave the issue of MDC Hide Armor, but I would rather assume that special processes are involved in making such armor than in making dinosaur steaks or whatnot.

One point where eliakon and I agreed was that MDC is not infinitely splittable, that if you take a 80 MDC dinosaur and cut it in half, you might have two 40 MDC dino-halves, and if you cut those in half you might have two 20 MDC dino-quarters, but at some point the process should break down to a point where you're cutting 1 MD dino chunks in half, and ending up with SDC dino chunks. Even the canon "flesh as strong as MDC steel" might be rendered edible after enough of this kind of process.
Even if you end up with 8 oz steaks that have dozens or hundreds of MDC, that's where a meat mallet and some patience can come in handy by reducing the SDC down to manageable (i.e. chewable) levels.

And while the third option doesn't answer the question of dino-steaks, it does lend flavor (so to speak) to the setting, as well as present options for obtaining nutrients from beings that don't revert to SDC and/or are not easily rendered into SDC meat.

[ShadowLogan]

Part Joke, Part Serious post.

How does an SDC critter eat a MDC critter?

I want to say very carefully

But that doesn't seem satisfying though two competing thoughts have come to me that seem satisfying for in-game explanation:
-what if the critter is only regarded as MDC for purposes of combat (in the dimensional energy matrix, a term that is alluded to in one of the Dimension Books I've picked up), but when it comes to non-combat purposes it is just SDC because it isn't considered combat when we eat.
-The SDC critter's digestive process(es) is capable of doing MDC.

[taalismn]

Eat the GM.

[Procopius]

Boy, do I ever regret asking this question!

[Daniel Stoker]

Welcome to the forums!


Daniel Stoker

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Boy, do I ever regret asking this question!

And a lot of the regular posters wonder why this community is dying. Read over this thread guys, and youll get an idea.

I'm with Damien except i think we can infer one further thing:

Let's review shall we?
Fact: the books state there are mdc critters in rifts.
Fact: the books state that some mdc critters are bred and hunted for meat by humans (and other non mdc types).
What can we derive from these two CANON statements?
Only one thing...
Some MDC critters are edible by sdc critters after death.
That is all we can establish from the given data.

Try not to over think things guys.

I feel we can reasonably infer that not every part of an MDC creature is necessarily MDC. IF MDC critters can be eaten by SDC critters, some part of them must be SDC. Also, not all MDC creatures are created equally. Some are MDC because they are supernatural. Magic binds their tissue together and makes it tougher than steel. These guys are probably MDC all the way through.

Dinosaurs dont appear to be supernatural - they are natural MDC creatures, basically. Like the Fury Beetle. I have -no- trouble believing that the MDC hide of a dinosaur is strong enough to stop rail gun and laser blasts and not instantly liquify the (squishier edible interior parts) - because otherwise, any time some fool in MDC armor got hit with a rail gun, he'd be goo.

The exterior flesh and hide may be MDC, but the internal organs and even the musculature could be perfectly edible.

[Killer Cyborg]

Boy, do I ever regret asking this question!

And a lot of the regular posters wonder why this community is dying. Read over this thread guys, and youll get an idea.

I'm with Damien except i think we can infer one further thing:

Let's review shall we?
Fact: the books state there are mdc critters in rifts.
Fact: the books state that some mdc critters are bred and hunted for meat by humans (and other non mdc types).
What can we derive from these two CANON statements?
Only one thing...
Some MDC critters are edible by sdc critters after death.
That is all we can establish from the given data.

Try not to over think things guys.

I feel we can reasonably infer that not every part of an MDC creature is necessarily MDC. IF MDC critters can be eaten by SDC critters, some part of them must be SDC. Also, not all MDC creatures are created equally. Some are MDC because they are supernatural. Magic binds their tissue together and makes it tougher than steel. These guys are probably MDC all the way through.

Dinosaurs dont appear to be supernatural - they are natural MDC creatures, basically. Like the Fury Beetle. I have -no- trouble believing that the MDC hide of a dinosaur is strong enough to stop rail gun and laser blasts and not instantly liquify the (squishier edible interior parts) - because otherwise, any time some fool in MDC armor got hit with a rail gun, he'd be goo.

The exterior flesh and hide may be MDC, but the internal organs and even the musculature could be perfectly edible.

The "hidden SDC" theory.
But I maintain that if Dino flesh was SDC, it would be in significant amounts to be listed somewhere, or mentioned somewhere, and it is not.
Also, we have the repeated mentions of mutant Dino Hit Points turning into MDC in Rifts (not their SDC), and references to MDC bodies, and even MDC flesh. And the other stuff I've gone over, such as "if only their skin is MDC, then I'm going to shoot them in their eyes and mouth."

Why is it more easy for you to believe in hidden SDC flesh than to believe that MDC flesh can be rendered somehow into SDC?

[Damian Magecraft]

Boy, do I ever regret asking this question!

And a lot of the regular posters wonder why this community is dying. Read over this thread guys, and youll get an idea.

I'm with Damien except i think we can infer one further thing:

Let's review shall we?
Fact: the books state there are mdc critters in rifts.
Fact: the books state that some mdc critters are bred and hunted for meat by humans (and other non mdc types).
What can we derive from these two CANON statements?
Only one thing...
Some MDC critters are edible by sdc critters after death.
That is all we can establish from the given data.

Try not to over think things guys.

I feel we can reasonably infer that not every part of an MDC creature is necessarily MDC. IF MDC critters can be eaten by SDC critters, some part of them must be SDC. Also, not all MDC creatures are created equally. Some are MDC because they are supernatural. Magic binds their tissue together and makes it tougher than steel. These guys are probably MDC all the way through.

Dinosaurs dont appear to be supernatural - they are natural MDC creatures, basically. Like the Fury Beetle. I have -no- trouble believing that the MDC hide of a dinosaur is strong enough to stop rail gun and laser blasts and not instantly liquify the (squishier edible interior parts) - because otherwise, any time some fool in MDC armor got hit with a rail gun, he'd be goo.

The exterior flesh and hide may be MDC, but the internal organs and even the musculature could be perfectly edible.

The "hidden SDC" theory.
But I maintain that if Dino flesh was SDC, it would be in significant amounts to be listed somewhere, or mentioned somewhere, and it is not.
Also, we have the repeated mentions of mutant Dino Hit Points turning into MDC in Rifts (not their SDC), and references to MDC bodies, and even MDC flesh. And the other stuff I've gone over, such as "if only their skin is MDC, then I'm going to shoot them in their eyes and mouth."

Why is it more easy for you to believe in hidden SDC flèche than to believe that MDC flesh can be rendered somehow into SDC?

I am inclined to go with the "secret process" theory.
Which is left unexplained by the books for one of two reasons (or possibly both).
One: the writers and editors did not think it that important to explain (it was intended as a flavor comment).
Two: it was left open so the GM and Players could make it up themselves and make the world their own.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Indeed. Thing is it's not really secret. We've been given the answer in the Rifter, just not "canon"

When that rifter came out, Palladium was not in the habit (That they seem to be in lately) Of making many articles canon. The vast majority at the time were optional rules.

So the 'answer' is out there, it's just up to people if they want to use it.

[Wise_Owl]

Making things that are only some-what edible fully edible is one of the foundational basis' of human technology. Smoking, Pickling, Brining, Making Jam, Tenderizing, etc. All have the potential to transform inedible flesh into edible flesh.

I would assume that the Flesh of Most MDC creatures can probably be rendered edible by humans through either chemical and/or magical means. M.D.C. is a rules extraction and meant to portray armour penetration, not structural integrity(i.e. I Can have an MDC piece of Glass that shatters from a single point of MDC damage but cannot be damaged through S.D.C. sources.)

Than again the game does tend to implode from the contradictory MD rules an implications at times. Still, basically 'Throw it in a vat and leave it for a weak' seems to make perfect sense to me. I mean does MDC flesh rot? If we presume so than some sort of bacterial transformation is at play.

[taalismn]

Making things that are only some-what edible fully edible is one of the foundational basis' of human technology. Smoking, Pickling, Brining, Making Jam, Tenderizing, etc. All have the potential to transform inedible flesh into edible flesh..

This. Modern stoves and cooking equipment arose from the period of the Enlightenment, when there were both those with the time and money to experiment with such things as thermodynamics, and the metallurgical technology to implement it. And human chemistry began even earlier with cooking(heat treatment, mixing, and the like), though some combinations and procedures continue to allude me as to how anybody thought they were worth developing to render something edible.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Making things that are only some-what edible fully edible is one of the foundational basis' of human technology. Smoking, Pickling, Brining, Making Jam, Tenderizing, etc. All have the potential to transform inedible flesh into edible flesh.

I would assume that the Flesh of Most MDC creatures can probably be rendered edible by humans through either chemical and/or magical means. M.D.C. is a rules extraction and meant to portray armour penetration, not structural integrity(i.e. I Can have an MDC piece of Glass that shatters from a single point of MDC damage but cannot be damaged through S.D.C. sources.)

Than again the game does tend to implode from the contradictory MD rules an implications at times. Still, basically 'Throw it in a vat and leave it for a weak' seems to make perfect sense to me. I mean does MDC flesh rot? If we presume so than some sort of bacterial transformation is at play.

Not trying to be funny but the methods you mention are what's in the article. (in addtion to cooking with MDC heat)

[taalismn]

[q

Not trying to be funny but the methods you mention are what's in the article. (in addtion to cooking with MDC heat)

Because that's what we IRL commonly use. Though the chemistry of lutefisk preparation frankly revolts me.

[Nightmask]

Making things that are only some-what edible fully edible is one of the foundational basis' of human technology. Smoking, Pickling, Brining, Making Jam, Tenderizing, etc. All have the potential to transform inedible flesh into edible flesh..

This. Modern stoves and cooking equipment arose from the period of the Enlightenment, when there were both those with the time and money to experiment with such things as thermodynamics, and the metallurgical technology to implement it. And human chemistry began even earlier with cooking(heat treatment, mixing, and the like), though some combinations and procedures continue to allude me as to how anybody thought they were worth developing to render something edible.

When you're starving and trying to make anything you can find edible so you can survive another day I imagine it proved impressively motivating, like the effort slaves put into turning the castoffs of animals like pig's feet into something nourishing due to being deprived of better, healthier, and more easily prepared cuts of meat. Considering how long human history goes back and how many people have lived and struggled to survive that's a LOT of time to experiment in and lots of motivation to do so.

[HWalsh]

Uh, it's pretty obvious that some MDC creatures are MDC on the outside and SDC on the inside. Before you scream, "Then you need an AR!"

No you don't.

If my Cyber-Knight has 94 MDC armor then there is no AR and if a rail gun blast hits me I don't die instantly unless it depletes the armor's MDC.

Then there is the process of cooking. If MDC meat is cooked in MDC heat it's very possible to eat whatever is left over after the MDC has been depleted.

[taalismn]

Just remember: proper etiquette sez the chainsaw goes on the right hand side of the plate, the laser torch on the left.
And get your knees out from under the table when cutting.

[J_cobbers]

How does an SDC creature eat a Mega-Damage critter?
Here's a Haku on that.

Well some use catchup,
others mayo and mustard;
I prefer A-1.

OR

Nom nom nom nom nom.
Try a fork and a knife.
Nom nom nom nom nom.

[HWalsh]

How does an SDC creature eat a Mega-Damage critter?
Here's a Haku on that.

Well some use catchup,
others mayo and mustard;
I prefer A-1.

OR

Nom nom nom nom nom.
Try a fork and a knife.
Nom nom nom nom nom.

Haiku is 5-7-5 not 5-6-5 (in your 2nd one)

Some use teeth and claws
Some eat whole with gaping maws
Some grind with strong jaws

Mine is a rare haiku that rhymes.

[J_cobbers]

How does an SDC creature eat a Mega-Damage critter?
Here's a Haku on that.

Well some use catchup,
others mayo and mustard;
I prefer A-1.

OR

Nom nom nom nom nom.
Try a fork and a knife.
Nom nom nom nom nom.

Haiku is 5-7-5 not 5-6-5 (in your 2nd one)

Some use teeth and claws
Some eat whole with gaping maws
Some grind with strong jaws

Mine is a rare haiku that rhymes.

Nice I dig yours. LMAO.

And crap, good catch I did miscount for the second. So here are 2 possible revisions:

Try a fork and a knife sir;
or
I use a fork and a knife.

[HWalsh]

And now: Rap

I'm going to eat ya up with my face
But don't worry, this ain't a race
Silly dog boy with a neutral mace
I'll make you a snack to pick up the pace
I gotta eat a monster that's MDC
But I'm kinda sad 'cause I'm SDC
But your meat's so hard silly me,
I'd like to borrow tenderizer if ya please,
I'm gonna beat and boil it till it's soft,
Then dry it out back at my loft,
My belly's a tomb, you're Laura Croft,
Now I got a beer belly like Hasslehoff.

Word.

[J_cobbers]

And now: Rap

I'm going to eat ya up with my face
But don't worry, this ain't a race
Silly dog boy with a neutral mace
I'll make you a snack to pick up the pace
I gotta eat a monster that's MDC
But I'm kinda sad 'cause I'm SDC
But your meat's so hard silly me,
I'd like to borrow tenderizer if ya please,
I'm gonna beat and boil it till it's soft,
Then dry it out back at my loft,
My belly's a tomb, you're Laura Croft,
Now I got a beer belly like Hasslehoff.

Word.

Let me beatbox that for you, boom chhhh boom boom chhhhboom chhhh boom boom chhhh, wicky wicky wicky.

[ShadowLogan]

Uh, it's pretty obvious that some MDC creatures are MDC on the outside and SDC on the inside. Before you scream, "Then you need an AR!"

No you don't.

If my Cyber-Knight has 94 MDC armor then there is no AR and if a rail gun blast hits me I don't die instantly unless it depletes the armor's MDC.

Then there is the process of cooking. If MDC meat is cooked in MDC heat it's very possible to eat whatever is left over after the MDC has been depleted.

You are correct you don't need AR, since humans in EBA can be completely sealed up (SDC inside, MDC outside) and not have an AR unless a part is removed. In any case though AR is ignored for MD combat and is only applicable to SD combat.

You Cyber-Knight example is not a good one for a variety of reasons.

MD heat I don't think is required, since temperature wise it doesn't seem to be any different than SDC heat.