Star Child RCC

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Star Child RCC

Unread post by Mack »

(Warning, what follows is the result of a bit of free time combined with idle curiosity, and is not really useful whatsoever!)

I was recently perusing the Star Child RCC (England, p53-54) and looking at it's Shooting Star ability. It lists a wide variety of random times that the ability might consume. Anywhere from 1 second to as much as 4 days. Which got me thinking (this is the dangerous part) "I wonder how long a character should actually expect this ability to take?"

After a false start or two, I used a multi-tabbed Excel sheet to come up with all the possible outcomes and calculate the actual odds. One tidbit that makes it a bit more complicated is that a character has a 3% per level chance of arriving in a second or two, bypassing the random table altogether. So the character's level becomes an important part of the answer.

Skipping to the chase, here's the results.

Code: Select all

Level  25% chance    50% chance    75% chance     90% chance   Average
1      4 min         26 min        13 hrs         27 hrs       11.07 hrs
5      4 sec         18 min        11 hrs         25 hrs       9.70 hrs
10     2 sec         8 min         8 hrs          24 hrs       7.99 hrs
15     2 sec         3 sec         1 hrs          21 hrs       6.28 hrs


So a level 5 character has a 25% chance of arriving in 4 seconds or less; a 50% chance of arriving in 18 minutes or less; a 75% chance of arriving in 11 hours or less; a 90% chance of arriving in 25 hours or less; and on average will take 9.70 hours to arrive. The next time he leaves his toothbrush at the old campsite, he can be pretty sure the journey back will take 11 hours or less (75% odds) but his buddies shouldn't be surprised if it takes quite a bit longer.


(Good thing I don't charge admission for these little musings.)

[EDIT - corrected an error in the table.]
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Axelmania »

How are these guys not messengers between the Mutants in Orbit settings and Rifts Earth? It would seem like this would let them bypass the satellite defense network. All I can figure is they can only bring their bodies and go naked so they wouldn't be able to bring vacuum survival gear and the ones who did this to teleport on the moon suffocated before the locals could rescue them.

Maybe that's where the legend of little green men came from?
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by blackwingedheaven »

Axelmania wrote:How are these guys not messengers between the Mutants in Orbit settings and Rifts Earth?


Second paragraph of the ability: "as long as he has a good idea of where he's going." No one on Rifts Earth knows the orbital colonies even exist, let alone where they are in orbit. If someone told a Star Child that the orbitals existed and could let him look at one through a high-powered telescope, then he could probably light-beam himself to one of them, where he would promptly get jumped by local security forces as a horrific alien monster. It would be like that one episode of The Simpsons: "I bring you love." "Break his legs!" XD
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Axelmania »

They'd still know the Moon exists though, but it's mostly the surviving while there thing. Breathe Without Air might help but I think you'd need some of those Three Galaxies spells to survive vacuum even with BWA.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by blackwingedheaven »

Axelmania wrote:They'd still know the Moon exists though, but it's mostly the surviving while there thing. Breathe Without Air might help but I think you'd need some of those Three Galaxies spells to survive vacuum even with BWA.


That's a problem, yeah. But even if you could get to the moon, the Lunar colony at Mare Imbrium is underground, and there's basically no way to know it's there at all unless you've got some sort of prior knowledge about it existing. Though that might be an interesting plot hook: scavengers discover a trove of information about a "moon base" from before the Rifts, a magic-user or Star Child decides to scout out the ruins for relics from the Golden Age (because naturally no one could still be living up there), and finagles a way to teleport a sealed vehicle onto the moon's surface, only to run afoul of the CAN Republic.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Mack »

A Star Child alone can visit the Moon, provided the GM decides a good look through a telescope is sufficient to know where he's going. Even the original Dead Boy body armor (RMB p193) is capable of protecting the wearer from space. The character should be able to reach the surface of the Moon and look around for a few hours until the internal oxygen supply runs low. And since the Star Child can also get Astral Projection, he could search a pretty big area before returning to the Earth.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by blackwingedheaven »

Mack wrote:Even the original Dead Boy body armor (RMB p193) is capable of protecting the wearer from space.


You know, I completely forgot that Coalition body armor was called out as specifically being vacuum-safe. XD
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Mack »

Yea, I always thought it odd that Dead Boy armor had that trait but not any other environmental armor. I always assumed it was just an oversight, but by the book it only applies to CS armor.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by eliakon »

Must be one of those kewl pre-rifts secret tech things.
Well, that or it just got quietly dropped in later books. One of the two.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Mack »

eliakon wrote:Well, that or it just got quietly dropped in later books. One of the two.


So I did a little more digging on the "space" ability of environmental armor...
-- RMB p193 on CS armor... yes
-- RMB p209 on common armor... no
-- RUE p261 on CS armor... yes
-- RUE p267 on common armor... no
-- CWC p100 on new CS armor... yes
-- Triax 1 p34 on Triax armor... yes
-- New West p177 on Bandito Arms... yes
-- FQ p49 on FQ armor... yes
-- SB1r p133 on Republican armor... no

It appears that RMB gives the ability to CS armor, but not others. From there, as best I can tell, subsequent books copy/paste from the RMB write-up but don't necessarily follow a pattern of when to copy from the CS entry versus the common entry.

I could see limiting it to nations like the CS, FQ, and Triax, but that doesn't explain why Bandito Arms can do it but not the Republicans.

/Shrug.

EDIT - found another reference... RGMG p202 has the space ability, and says "whether it is from the CS, Northern Gun, Triax, the Black Market or a little homespun shop in the back alley of the 'Burbs." Based on that, I'd allow all EBA to have the space ability.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Axelmania »

Unlike a Psi-Ghost, I see nothing about being able to bring equipment along for this ride. Having to leave all your gear behind and arrive nude seemed like a balancing factor to it.
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Re: Star Child RCC

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Axelmania wrote:Unlike a Psi-Ghost, I see nothing about being able to bring equipment along for this ride. Having to leave all your gear behind and arrive nude seemed like a balancing factor to it.


That's a rather significant limitation. So significant that it's incredibly unlikely the author would neglect to include it.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Axelmania »

It's not that significant, these are creatures with an impressive MDC aura that regenerates quickly, and they're children of nature who might not be that fond of gear and might fly around in minimal clothing anyway.

Generally when you can teleport they include some kind of weight limit, otherwise I could pilot a Glitterboy with a Starchild and FTL it around.

If it's alllowed I'd at least require a temporal "attune object to owner" spell as a semi-balancer.
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Re: Star Child RCC

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If you consider arriving buck naked without any equipment to be not that significant, then we have different definitions of significant.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Axelmania »

It's less significant for someone with their powers than it would be for someone who doesn't have inherent permanent regenerating MDC protection.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Mack wrote:A Star Child alone can visit the Moon, provided the GM decides a good look through a telescope is sufficient to know where he's going. Even the original Dead Boy body armor (RMB p193) is capable of protecting the wearer from space. The character should be able to reach the surface of the Moon and look around for a few hours until the internal oxygen supply runs low. And since the Star Child can also get Astral Projection, he could search a pretty big area before returning to the Earth.


Actually you bring up an interesting point, Astral Projection should let someone travel, in their astral form from the comfort of Earth, through the atmosphere, undetected by killer satellites. They could even make contact via telepathy etc. Tolkeen, Lazlo, the CS, Psyscape, and just about any other major Rifts world powers has access to major and Master psychics with these powers and really ought to have thought of this possibility.

Low earth orbit is about 250 miles up, and at mach 1 you can travel 12.69 miles per minute, so the astral projectee would have to be at least 4th level to get up high enough to just see anything at that height. Or for the higher geostationary stations (22,236 miles) skip the distance and use the astral plane to skip the distance and get up high enough to zip up there and start looking around, and maybe make contact. Might take awhile, and could be an interesting adventure plot, and involve the characters making multiple trips with detours through the astral plane for more drama and plot twists.

A star child could use it to explore first, then use their shooting star power once they located a base via astral projection to get there and back.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Natasha »

Mack wrote:(Warning, what follows is the result of a bit of free time combined with idle curiosity, and is not really useful whatsoever!)

I was recently perusing the Star Child RCC (England, p53-54) and looking at it's Shooting Star ability. It lists a wide variety of random times that the ability might consume. Anywhere from 1 second to as much as 4 days. Which got me thinking (this is the dangerous part) "I wonder how long a character should actually expect this ability to take?"

After a false start or two, I used a multi-tabbed Excel sheet to come up with all the possible outcomes and calculate the actual odds. One tidbit that makes it a bit more complicated is that a character has a 3% per level chance of arriving in a second or two, bypassing the random table altogether. So the character's level becomes an important part of the answer.

Skipping to the chase, here's the results.

Code: Select all

Level  25% chance    50% chance    75% chance     90% chance   Average
1      5 min         13 min        60 min         26 hrs       9.8 hrs
5      4 sec         11 min        60 min         24 hrs       8.6 hrs
10     2 sec         7 min         60 min         24 hrs       7.1 hrs
15     2 sec         3 sec         19 min         21 hrs       5.6 hrs


So a level 5 character has a 25% chance of arriving in 4 seconds or less; a 50% chance of arriving in 11 minutes or less; a 75% chance of arriving in 60 minutes or less; a 90% chance of arriving in 24 hours or less; and on average will take 8.6 hours to arrive. The next time he leaves his toothbrush at the old campsite, he can be pretty sure the journey back will take 60 minutes or less (75% odds) but his buddies shouldn't be surprised if it takes quite a bit longer.

There ya go. What I found amusing was how different the average time is from the different confidence intervals. 75% is pretty good odds, yet the time is an order of magnitude less than the average.

(Good thing I don't charge admission for these little musings.)

I've been unable to reverse engineer and therefore understand your solution. I can readily explain why the higher level character should always be less likely to fall into any of the categories given by the second roll; there are simply fewer possible outcomes which put them in those failure categories. After that, I cannot explain your results. If you don't mind providing some more detail about your solution, I would only be happy.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

J_cobbers wrote:
Mack wrote:A Star Child alone can visit the Moon, provided the GM decides a good look through a telescope is sufficient to know where he's going. Even the original Dead Boy body armor (RMB p193) is capable of protecting the wearer from space. The character should be able to reach the surface of the Moon and look around for a few hours until the internal oxygen supply runs low. And since the Star Child can also get Astral Projection, he could search a pretty big area before returning to the Earth.


Actually you bring up an interesting point, Astral Projection should let someone travel, in their astral form from the comfort of Earth, through the atmosphere, undetected by killer satellites. They could even make contact via telepathy etc. Tolkeen, Lazlo, the CS, Psyscape, and just about any other major Rifts world powers has access to major and Master psychics with these powers and really ought to have thought of this possibility.

Low earth orbit is about 250 miles up, and at mach 1 you can travel 12.69 miles per minute, so the astral projectee would have to be at least 4th level to get up high enough to just see anything at that height. Or for the higher geostationary stations (22,236 miles) skip the distance and use the astral plane to skip the distance and get up high enough to zip up there and start looking around, and maybe make contact. Might take awhile, and could be an interesting adventure plot, and involve the characters making multiple trips with detours through the astral plane for more drama and plot twists.

looking at the PSI-power.. it only lasts 5 minutes per level. at mach 1 (since we can ignore the effect of gravity) your looking at a travel rate of only 11.1 miles per minute. so to reach low orbit (99-1200m) you'd have a travel time of 9-108 minutes. one way. remember that you actually have to return to your physical body before the duration is up, so you can't really go all that far.

so even a level 15 Psychic would be unable to reach anything but the lower end of the LEO belt.

also, it is worth noting that astral forms, not being effected by gravity, are stuck at the mach1 maximum speed. when anything in orbit is generally in the mach25+ range even in 'freefall' due to orbital mechanics. so even if you could somehow manage to increase the duration (and thus the distance) of the power, you'd be unable to keep up with anything in orbit long enough to get into telepathy range.
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Re: Star Child RCC

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Natasha wrote:I've been unable to reverse engineer and therefore understand your solution. I can readily explain why the higher level character should always be less likely to fall into any of the categories given by the second roll; there are simply fewer possible outcomes which put them in those failure categories. After that, I cannot explain your results. If you don't mind providing some more detail about your solution, I would only be happy.
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(Note - I'm glad you asked this, because I found a copy/paste error in my spreadsheet that adjusts the results. I'll post the correction later.)

Alright, let's see if I can adequately communicate it.

So for a Level 1 character, there are two ways for the trip to take exactly 3 minutes: 1) Roll 01-12 and then all ones on 3D6; or 2) Roll 38-50 and then roll a three on 1D6.

1) There's a 97% chance the character has to use the table. Then there's a 12% chance of rolling 01-12 on the table, and then only a 1 in 216 (or 0.46296%...) chance of rolling all ones on 3D6.
-- So 97% * 12% * 0.46296% = 0.05369% chance.

2) Again, there's a 97% chance the character has to use the table. Then there's a 13% chance of rolling 38-50 on the table, and then a 1 in 6 (or 0.16667%...) chance of rolling a three on 1D6.
-- So 97% * 13% * 0.16667% = 2.10167% chance

Add those two up, and the overall chance of the trip taking exactly 1 minute is 2.15556%.

The spreadsheet I built does that same approach for every possible outcome, then summarizes it into a single table based on time.
-- Odds of exactly 1 minute = 2.1%
-- Odds of exactly 2 minutes = 2.1%
-- Odds of exactly 3 minutes = 2.2%
-- Odds of exactly 4 minutes = 2.3%
...all the way from 1 second up to 4 days.

With that table, I could then find the expected returns I listed. Speaking of which, here's the revision, and I'll edit the original post:

Code: Select all

Level  25% chance    50% chance    75% chance     90% chance   Average
1      4 min         26 min        13 hrs         27 hrs       11.07 hrs
5      4 sec         18 min        11 hrs         25 hrs       9.70 hrs
10     2 sec         8 min         8 hrs          24 hrs       7.99 hrs
15     2 sec         3 sec         1 hrs          21 hrs       6.28 hrs

So for a level one character, all the results between 1 second and 4 minutes equals about 25% of the outcomes. Or to rephrase it, there's about a 25% chance of the trip taking 4 minutes or less.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by J_cobbers »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
J_cobbers wrote:Actually you bring up an interesting point, Astral Projection should let someone travel, in their astral form from the comfort of Earth, through the atmosphere, undetected by killer satellites. They could even make contact via telepathy etc. Tolkeen, Lazlo, the CS, Psyscape, and just about any other major Rifts world powers has access to major and Master psychics with these powers and really ought to have thought of this possibility.

Low earth orbit is about 250 miles up, and at mach 1 you can travel 12.69 miles per minute, so the astral projectee would have to be at least 4th level to get up high enough to just see anything at that height. Or for the higher geostationary stations (22,236 miles) skip the distance and use the astral plane to skip the distance and get up high enough to zip up there and start looking around, and maybe make contact. Might take awhile, and could be an interesting adventure plot, and involve the characters making multiple trips with detours through the astral plane for more drama and plot twists.

looking at the PSI-power.. it only lasts 5 minutes per level. at mach 1 (since we can ignore the effect of gravity) your looking at a travel rate of only 11.1 miles per minute. so to reach low orbit (99-1200m) you'd have a travel time of 9-108 minutes. one way. remember that you actually have to return to your physical body before the duration is up, so you can't really go all that far.

so even a level 15 Psychic would be unable to reach anything but the lower end of the LEO belt.

also, it is worth noting that astral forms, not being effected by gravity, are stuck at the mach1 maximum speed. when anything in orbit is generally in the mach25+ range even in 'freefall' due to orbital mechanics. so even if you could somehow manage to increase the duration (and thus the distance) of the power, you'd be unable to keep up with anything in orbit long enough to get into telepathy range.


Getting up there isn't an impossibility, as an Astral Traveler you can bypass great distances by short cutting through the Astral Plane (enter the AP by your body, and come out out in space/moon and return the same way). While this carries it's own risks, it is a viable strategy to get up high enough into a geosynchronous orbit or even the moon. Is this realistic? Probably not, but under the rules it is possible.

But your point about orbital speeds is on point, even the geosynchronous stations would be traveling too fast to keep up with. Unless your GM lets you twink with relative motion once you hit the station, but would that then contradict the whole ethereal nature of the Astral form? Of course one could argue that relative speed to where you are is allowable because earth's rotational velocity is 1040 mph, it's orbital speed around the Sun is about 70,000 mph and the Sun's Galactic Orbital speed is an additional 514,000 mph, and the galaxy itself is booking around a good 1.34 million mph. But that's really belaboring the point. I would guess my opinion would be that the best ruling is that the Mach 1 limit would be in relation to where the character initiated their power, which doesn't help the earth bound traveler. Even if you astrally projected from the moon, then you have an orbital speed of 2,288 mph. Geosynchronous orbital speeds are about 6876 mph, and mach 1 is about 717 mph at sea level, so even then you'd would be stuck about 3931 mph too slow using the relative motion theory, except for lunar exploration, for which you'd need someone like a star child to get up there in the first place.

However, it shouldn't take very powerful telescopes to be able to look up and see the large space stations, or at least that something is up there to target with Astral Projection in this manner, or just using the Star Child's normal power, since they are described as being in a geosynchronous orbit, they'll always be in the same place above the earth, so get some good eyes on them to know where they are going, and then use their shooting star power to get up there and skip the whole Astral Projection.

Actually this also makes me wonder about another part of the Astral Projection power, what happens if you don't make it back to your body or return from the Astral Plane within the time limits of the power? It is never specifically addressed in the description of the power. Thoughts?
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Natasha »

Mack wrote:1) There's a 97% chance the character has to use the table. Then there's a 12% chance of rolling 01-12 on the table, and then only a 1 in 216 (or 0.46296%...) chance of rolling all ones on 3D6.
-- So 97% * 12% * 0.46296% = 0.05369% chance.

2) Again, there's a 97% chance the character has to use the table. Then there's a 13% chance of rolling 38-50 on the table, and then a 1 in 6 (or 0.16667%...) chance of rolling a three on 1D6.
-- So 97% * 13% * 0.16667% = 2.10167% chance

Add those two up, and the overall chance of the trip taking exactly 1 minute is 2.15556%.

Ok. That works. :ok:
Last edited by Natasha on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Child RCC

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J_cobbers wrote:Actually this also makes me wonder about another part of the Astral Projection power, what happens if you don't make it back to your body or return from the Astral Plane within the time limits of the power? It is never specifically addressed in the description of the power. Thoughts?

I'm certain RUE says you die after a given period of time. I'm not sure about other Rifts sources.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Natasha wrote:
J_cobbers wrote:Actually this also makes me wonder about another part of the Astral Projection power, what happens if you don't make it back to your body or return from the Astral Plane within the time limits of the power? It is never specifically addressed in the description of the power. Thoughts?

I'm certain RUE says you die after a given period of time. I'm not sure about other Rifts sources.


I don't recall that in RUE. I know it is possible to be killed in Astral form by other Astral beings, but where is the "you die rule" located?
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Re: Star Child RCC

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Natasha wrote:
J_cobbers wrote:Actually this also makes me wonder about another part of the Astral Projection power, what happens if you don't make it back to your body or return from the Astral Plane within the time limits of the power? It is never specifically addressed in the description of the power. Thoughts?

I'm certain RUE says you die after a given period of time.


Please provide a citation, I find nothing of the sort in RUE.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

given the emphasis on returning to the body (and the difficulties you can have retracing one's route in the Astral plane itself) i suspect that whatever happens is rather ugly.

but auto-death? definitely need a reference on that one.
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Re: Star Child RCC

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J_cobbers wrote:Getting up there isn't an impossibility, as an Astral Traveler you can bypass great distances by short cutting through the Astral Plane (enter the AP by your body, and come out out in space/moon and return the same way).

Second paragraph of Astral Projection, p. 171 wrote:Second, if the Astral Body gets lost or captured while in the Astral Plane, the body will begin to waste away and die. (Note: One minute of our time is equal to one week in the Astral Plane.)

That is what I was remembering.

Although technically death after a given period of time is correct, it's probably not going to happen.

I should have said you roll a few times until you get out of the Astral Plane where the most extreme result is you are forever lost and end up dying.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Mack »

Actually, all one has to do is wait for the duration to expire.
RUE p171, lower right corner wrote:The player may keep trying until he succeeds or time elapses.

Even if he continually fails to find his way back he will automatically return once the power's duration ends.
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Re: Star Child RCC

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Mack wrote:Actually, all one has to do is wait for the duration to expire.
RUE p171, lower right corner wrote:The player may keep trying until he succeeds or time elapses.

Even if he continually fails to find his way back he will automatically return once the power's duration ends.


Read that again. Once the time elapses, the player may not make any more rolls to attempt to find their body. What actually happens when time elapses is not specified. This is actually one of my major complaints about Astral Projection.

Personally, I want Astral Projection to be risky, so my typical house rules for it are if you don't return to your body before the time elapses, then your astral form loses cohesion and you cease to exist.

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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Natasha »

flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:Actually, all one has to do is wait for the duration to expire.
RUE p171, lower right corner wrote:The player may keep trying until he succeeds or time elapses.

Even if he continually fails to find his way back he will automatically return once the power's duration ends.


Read that again. Once the time elapses, the player may not make any more rolls to attempt to find their body. What actually happens when time elapses is not specified. This is actually one of my major complaints about Astral Projection.

Personally, I want Astral Projection to be risky, so my typical house rules for it are if you don't return to your body before the time elapses, then your astral form loses cohesion and you cease to exist.

--flatline

I'd say that it is specified by "the body will begin to waste away and die." What I would say is not specified is if you are in the material plane when the duration expires. Perhaps then you just get reeled in by the silver cord.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Natasha wrote:
flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:Actually, all one has to do is wait for the duration to expire.
RUE p171, lower right corner wrote:The player may keep trying until he succeeds or time elapses.

Even if he continually fails to find his way back he will automatically return once the power's duration ends.


Read that again. Once the time elapses, the player may not make any more rolls to attempt to find their body. What actually happens when time elapses is not specified. This is actually one of my major complaints about Astral Projection.

Personally, I want Astral Projection to be risky, so my typical house rules for it are if you don't return to your body before the time elapses, then your astral form loses cohesion and you cease to exist.

--flatline

I'd say that it is specified by "the body will begin to waste away and die." What I would say is not specified is if you are in the material plane when the duration expires. Perhaps then you just get reeled in by the silver cord.


The the wasting away and dying is only if the astral body is 'lost or captured' on the Astral Plane, but you can roll one a melee and 1 minute of real time = 1 week in the astral plane. Which is plenty of time to roll a success as there are 40,320 15 second melee rounds per week.

As Flatline points out, no word on what happens in the material plane even though you have a 60% chance to find your body if it has been moved, no mention of any difficulty on the material plane otherwise, and again no word on what happens when time runs out anyway.

Long story short, the rules of Astral Travel could use some fleshing out. Isn't Nightbane supposed to have something to do with the Astral realm? Maybe the answers are fleshed out there more indepth.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Natasha »

J_cobbers wrote:The the wasting away and dying is only if the astral body is 'lost or captured' on the Astral Plane, but you can roll one a melee and 1 minute of real time = 1 week in the astral plane. Which is plenty of time to roll a success as there are 40,320 15 second melee rounds per week.

Can you roll after the duration elapses? I interpret it as you cannot. If you interpret it otherwise, that's fine with me.
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Re: Star Child RCC

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flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:Actually, all one has to do is wait for the duration to expire.
RUE p171, lower right corner wrote:The player may keep trying until he succeeds or time elapses.

Even if he continually fails to find his way back he will automatically return once the power's duration ends.


Read that again. Once the time elapses, the player may not make any more rolls to attempt to find their body. What actually happens when time elapses is not specified. This is actually one of my major complaints about Astral Projection.


I agree that it's not specified. However, if there was a nasty consequence then it would be expressly laid out.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by flatline »

Mack wrote:
flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:Actually, all one has to do is wait for the duration to expire.
RUE p171, lower right corner wrote:The player may keep trying until he succeeds or time elapses.

Even if he continually fails to find his way back he will automatically return once the power's duration ends.


Read that again. Once the time elapses, the player may not make any more rolls to attempt to find their body. What actually happens when time elapses is not specified. This is actually one of my major complaints about Astral Projection.


I agree that it's not specified. However, if there was a nasty consequence then it would be expressly laid out.


And yet the power description is written in a tone that implies that there are consequences...and then fails to describe any consequences.

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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Marcethus »

J_cobbers wrote:
The the wasting away and dying is only if the astral body is 'lost or captured' on the Astral Plane, but you can roll one a melee and 1 minute of real time = 1 week in the astral plane. Which is plenty of time to roll a success as there are 40,320 15 second melee rounds per week.

As Flatline points out, no word on what happens in the material plane even though you have a 60% chance to find your body if it has been moved, no mention of any difficulty on the material plane otherwise, and again no word on what happens when time runs out anyway.

Long story short, the rules of Astral Travel could use some fleshing out. Isn't Nightbane supposed to have something to do with the Astral realm? Maybe the answers are fleshed out there more indepth.


Nightbane does have something. The book is Between the Shadows. Covers everything to do with the Astral plane and the Dreamstream. Also Rifter 9 has more info on it as well.

And as I don't have my books nearby atm I will not weigh in on this discussion yet. Though I do recall very specific details regarding what happens if one fails the rolls and the power elapses.
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Re: Star Child RCC

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Marcethus wrote:Nightbane does have something. The book is Between the Shadows. Covers everything to do with the Astral plane and the Dreamstream. Also Rifter 9 has more info on it as well.

And as I don't have my books nearby atm I will not weigh in on this discussion yet. Though I do recall very specific details regarding what happens if one fails the rolls and the power elapses.


Hmph. Hopefully someone with those books handy can shed some light on this.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Natasha »

Between the Shadows defines regions of the astral plane and then refers you to Nightbane page 70, which RUE copies practically verbatim.
If you don't find your way out of the astral plane before the duration elapses, you waste away and die.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Prysus »

Mack wrote:Actually, all one has to do is wait for the duration to expire.
RUE p171, lower right corner wrote:The player may keep trying until he succeeds or time elapses.

Even if he continually fails to find his way back he will automatically return once the power's duration ends.

Greetings and Salutations. Though consequences aren't stated out directly, your conclusion of being automatically returned runs contrary to the text we do have.

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 171 wrote:Second, if the Astral Body gets lost or captured while in the Astral Plane, the body will begin to waste away and die.
Rifts Ultimate Edition, Page 171 wrote:Furthermore, the Astral Plane has its dangers as well, from Astral Beings and monsters to becoming endlessly lost.

The first quote tells us you CAN become lost and die as a result. Additionally, becoming lost is considered a "danger" that can happen "endlessly." These statements couldn't be true at all if you were guaranteed safe return whenever you become lost. But what does happen?

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 171 wrote:The player may keep trying until he he succeeds or time elapses.

So once time elapses, you can't try again. Is this because you get automatically snapped back to your body safely and without danger? Well, the text doesn't state for sure, but this seems unlikely based upon the previous sections, and even some of the following sections.

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 172 wrote:Astral travel with a partner is a much safer way to travel, because if one can find his body, he can lead the other one with him.
Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 172 wrote:The other danger lies in ...

Again, this is calling it a danger, and how it's safer to travel with a friend so that you have a better chance of finding your body. The fact this is dangerous, and the book suggests added precautions to help safely return suggests that automatic safe return is NOT the default. Note: The second quote here isn't about returning to the body, but it does call monsters "the other danger," indicating that the returning to the body is the first danger (reaffirming what the book clearly states earlier).

What I believe would happen (based upon the text provided)?
To me, it seems that if you don't find your way back within the duration that you become endlessly lost (at least within the Astral Plane). However, why? As long as that silver cord (you know, the one the power talks about constantly in almost every paragraph sometimes multiple times as a super important aspect) is there you should be able to still try and find your way back, right? I'd theorize that staying out of your body beyond the time limit snaps the Silver Cord. Now, this is NOT instant death. You get a 30% chance (best 2 out 3) to still find your body. This is kind of a last ditch effort, but still possible. If the roll fails, the body likely dies of shock.

So if I fail this roll I'm automatically dead?
Well, first, you probably had to fail a LOT of rolls before this for this to be an issue. However a G.M. can cause you to lose sense of time in the Astral Plane due to the lack of environment such as a sun to tell time with, as well as the general time distortion. So maybe it became a time crunch and a race against the clock. Bad luck and well ... now you're stuck! G.M. allowing though, all hope is not lost. Though you're lost in the Astral Plane, the hope is you still have friends on the Material Plane. Instead of the Silver Cord being snapping under too much stress (exceeding the duration), it could just fade away. Now, instead of the body dying suddenly of shock it will just slowly wither away. This gives friends time to enlist help from another Astral Traveler (psychic, magic, other). Tell this hired hand where Bob was headed when he went into the Astral Plane (considering Bob relayed this info), and now the hired help can go looking for Bob. If he finds him, he can bring Bob back the same way as traveling with a friend. Now our hired hand is a professional. He might have the Astral Navigation power from Nightbane: Between the Shadows (greatly increasing his chances of finding his way back), or just leave himself with enough time to have literally thousands of attempts to find his way back. Eventually, Bob's body will wither away and die. But, until then, there's hope.

Would this apply if traveling in the Material Plane?
Yes! The book tells us you have a 60% chance of finding your body (if it's been moved that is, otherwise it seems a guaranteed success as long as you give yourself enough time). This is still listed as a danger within the book, and the rule for a Silver Cord breaking would still be the same. While this is much safer than going to the Astral Plane, that's not the same as being safe. See ways to save a lost character above.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on Astral Travel. Hope they help. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Star Child RCC

Unread post by Axelmania »

Psionics aside, a Diabolist in Kingsdale could permanence ward someone under the effects of the spell version, which while normally Self spell could be open to anyone via Talisman/Scroll. Probably something they would try anyway on people who are paralyzed or in unwaking comas.

Aside from something so invasive, the spell could benefit from Duration Booster and much better duration multipliers from ley lines than the ones enjoyed by psionics.

On that note, doubled sensitive psi from Psyscapers would mean they would probably have double the distance mapped out via AP compared to other communities. Especially as all Yhabbayar can give via bubbles temporarily any healing/sensitive power to anybody. I don't know if others would benefit from the.doubling.

Makes.you wonder if a bubble hit an astral form if it cod extend the duration without needing a body return. Sounds like the Yhabbayar might spend the meditation time too.

Also Psycape you can get a 1/5 duration boost from.implant. Not huge changer.

Lone Star the PsiX.can't go longer but cod take bigger risks in nearing the limit since they get a percent boost to relocate home.
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