Making Rifts® Savage: Mega Damage, Vampires, and Juicer Burn

[dragonfett]

So Pinnacle released an article talking about some of the thought processes and such of making the game. I have to say that when I had first heard about the Juicer Burn, I wasn't too overly optimistic, but now I am.

Here's the link to the PDF for the article.

https://www.peginc.com/store/making-rifts-savage-mega-damage-vampires-and-juicer-burn/

[FluidicAztec]

It's really interesting stuff...can't wait to see more. The whole 'burn' thing sounds super cool.

Question for the MODs: Why isn't there a discussion board for Savage World Rifts? Is it a proprietary thing?

[PigLickJF]

I need to get more familiar with the Savage Worlds rules to gauge my feelings on the Juicer Burn.

As someone who normally struggles with usage of limited resources (I'm a hoarder at heart, I guess), I'm not a big fan of the idea. Especially for a resource which basically inevitably lads to character death, I can't imagine ever choosing to use burn unless the tradeoff is near-guaranteed salvation from near-certain death. Since I don't know the Savage World rules well, let alone exactly how the Juicer burn mechanics work, it's hard for me to decide how I feel about it.

That said, it is an interesting idea and quite fitting for the Juicer in concept, so Look forward to learning/seeing more about it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I like that juicer burn idea, letting the player choose how quick they burn the juicer out.

[eliakon]

The idea that there is something that might cause the downside of the Juicer (short lifespan) to actually manifest in play is good.
I have seen dozens of juicers played in games... And baring a special sort of time skip I have never seen one die of last call out side of a couple characters rolled up for a JU game who started in LC.

Its a great narrative element of pathos and tragedy... But game wise it has almost next to zero impact on players so why bother. The idea that you might actually have a risk? Yeah double A plus.

[Shark_Force]

I need to get more familiar with the Savage Worlds rules to gauge my feelings on the Juicer Burn.

As someone who normally struggles with usage of limited resources (I'm a hoarder at heart, I guess), I'm not a big fan of the idea. Especially for a resource which basically inevitably lads to character death, I can't imagine ever choosing to use burn unless the tradeoff is near-guaranteed salvation from near-certain death. Since I don't know the Savage World rules well, let alone exactly how the Juicer burn mechanics work, it's hard for me to decide how I feel about it.

That said, it is an interesting idea and quite fitting for the Juicer in concept, so Look forward to learning/seeing more about it.

if the idea of your OCC killing you doesn't appeal to you, perhaps it is best not to play an OCC that will inevitably kill you...

[Jefffar]

I like the way they are handling MDC . . . not the SDC can't hurt MDC part, but that a lot of things that currently are MDC won't be.

And FluidAztec, because nobody's suggested it to us yet.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The burn die seems a bit risky. It's entirely possible to die in 8 sessions purely through bad luck. not so much 5 years as 5 days

[The Beast]

I like the way they are handling MDC . . . not the SDC can't hurt MDC part, but that a lot of things that currently are MDC won't be.

And FluidAztec, because nobody's suggested it to us yet.

Like what?

[Daniel Stoker]

And FluidAztec, because nobody's suggested it to us yet.

Well ok, can we have one please?


Daniel Stoker

[Shark_Force]

The burn die seems a bit risky. It's entirely possible to die in 8 sessions purely through bad luck. not so much 5 years as 5 days

turns out you were allergic i guess

[eliakon]

The burn die seems a bit risky. It's entirely possible to die in 8 sessions purely through bad luck. not so much 5 years as 5 days

Bah, if you wanted to die of old age you would have been a CPA. At least you go out with your boots on right?

[Slight001]

And juicers just got kicked off a lot of people's lists of viable class options...

[dragonfett]

The burn die seems a bit risky. It's entirely possible to die in 8 sessions purely through bad luck. not so much 5 years as 5 days

Well we don't know what die type the Burn Die will be. If it's a d8, then yeah, there is a remote possibility. But if the Burn Die is a d6 (which is what I have a feeling is going to be the case), then so long as you don't use any abilities that require you to lower your Burn Score, you should be fine. But honestly, what's the fun in playing a Juicer if you are going to play it safe?

[Damian Magecraft]

The burn die seems a bit risky. It's entirely possible to die in 8 sessions purely through bad luck. not so much 5 years as 5 days

Well we don't know what die type the Burn Die will be. If it's a d8, then yeah, there is a remote possibility. But if the Burn Die is a d6 (which is what I have a feeling is going to be the case), then so long as you don't use any abilities that require you to lower your Burn Score, you should be fine. But honestly, what's the fun in playing a Juicer if you are going to play it safe?

It is a d10.
And there s a Background Edge called "freshly juiced" which raises the base burn from 8 to 10.

As to the mechanic itself?
Dont like the check every session? make it a check every adventure arc... or a check every two sessions (or any other arbitrary number that suits your need.)

better get used to the idea tho...
from the sounds of things Kevin really likes the idea and he may try to find away to incorporate a pb version of it into the game.

[Jefffar]

I like the way they are handling MDC . . . not the SDC can't hurt MDC part, but that a lot of things that currently are MDC won't be.

And FluidAztec, because nobody's suggested it to us yet.

Like what?

Well for example basic body armour and personal weapons appear to no longer be MDC. The example provided a GB Pilot in Huntsman Armour with a Laser Pistol would still have to fear some dude with a spear jumping out and rushing him.

And FluidAztec, because nobody's suggested it to us yet.

Well ok, can we have one please?


Daniel Stoker

I'll pass along the request.

[Blue_Lion]

The burn die seems a bit risky. It's entirely possible to die in 8 sessions purely through bad luck. not so much 5 years as 5 days

Well we don't know what die type the Burn Die will be. If it's a d8, then yeah, there is a remote possibility. But if the Burn Die is a d6 (which is what I have a feeling is going to be the case), then so long as you don't use any abilities that require you to lower your Burn Score, you should be fine. But honestly, what's the fun in playing a Juicer if you are going to play it safe?

It is a d10.
And there s a Background Edge called "freshly juiced" which raises the base burn from 8 to 10.

As to the mechanic itself?
Dont like the check every session? make it a check every adventure arc... or a check every two sessions (or any other arbitrary number that suits your need.)

better get used to the idea tho...
from the sounds of things Kevin really likes the idea and he may try to find away to incorporate a pb version of it into the game.

So a 30% base chance to die every check that could be every session. That does not make it very appealing.
It to me sounds like a good idea fairy something that sounds good until you start looking at it. Will likely cause a drop in juicer play.

[Jefffar]

Well a lot of current players of Juicers realize that the current mechanic for them does not make their burn out a part of game play in most campaigns. In short, the major disadvantage of the class is more or less not applicable.

This actually means you have to risk something to get the juicer benefits ... we'll have to see what those are before we find out how worth it it is.

[Blue_Lion]

Well a lot of current players of Juicers realize that the current mechanic for them does not make their burn out a part of game play in most campaigns. In short, the major disadvantage of the class is more or less not applicable.

This actually means you have to risk something to get the juicer benefits ... we'll have to see what those are before we find out how worth it it is.

Making them need to refill their drugs more often and have affects for when they are short on drugs would be a better as a disadvantage. IE they should be focusing the disadvantage on the juicer looking to maintain his addiction, not randomly killing a charter just because of his class. A base 30% chance to die every session for a charter just for being his class means they are unlikely to survive more than a handful of sessions.
I do not think the short life span(as in most games life spans are irrelevant) was meant as a in game disadvantage but a story one.

[Jefffar]

It's a chance to lose a Burn Point, not to die. As long as the character has Burn Points left they may live.

[blackwingedheaven]

It's a chance to lose a Burn Point, not to die. As long as the character has Burn Points left they may live.

And I'm pretty sure most GMs would let you spend a Benny to reroll it. That means starting the session with one less Benny, but hey, drug addiction's a hell of a thing.

[Wise_Owl]

I actually quite like the Burn mechanic. It makes the 'weakness' of the Juicer relevant in actual play. Realistically in the majority of games I've ever witnessed I've had exactly 1 Juicer reach 'Check-out' time, and that was because the player intentionally wanted to be 'near that threshold'.

The advantage of this mechanic, like much of Savage worlds, is tying it to the narrative. It lets you 'live' the Juicer life-style. You can, to an extent, control when your going to go, and maybe expend that last point of burn in a heroic moment, burning bright and than 'going out'.

[The Beast]

I like the way they are handling MDC . . . not the SDC can't hurt MDC part, but that a lot of things that currently are MDC won't be.

And FluidAztec, because nobody's suggested it to us yet.

Like what?

Well for example basic body armour and personal weapons appear to no longer be MDC. The example provided a GB Pilot in Huntsman Armour with a Laser Pistol would still have to fear some dude with a spear jumping out and rushing him.

Doesn't sound so bad. What about MDC creatures? Are they getting rid of them, not changing them at all, or only allowing supernatural creatures to be MDC?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I like the way they are handling MDC . . . not the SDC can't hurt MDC part, but that a lot of things that currently are MDC won't be.

And FluidAztec, because nobody's suggested it to us yet.

Like what?

Well for example basic body armour and personal weapons appear to no longer be MDC. The example provided a GB Pilot in Huntsman Armour with a Laser Pistol would still have to fear some dude with a spear jumping out and rushing him.

Doesn't sound so bad. What about MDC creatures? Are they getting rid of them, not changing them at all, or only allowing supernatural creatures to be MDC?

I imagine similar logic will be employed. so while Dragons will amost certainly remain MDC, it's doubtful every farie and imp will.

[Shark_Force]

i will say that the payout from juicer burn feels somewhat low. i would want to see more happen by default if you voluntarily spend burn (alternately, you could have it so that when you burn, you roll the die an extra time to see if you lose burn permanently instead of guaranteed loss).

[Jefffar]

We still don't have all the Juicer rules yet. We don't know what spending a burn point does.

[Damian Magecraft]

We still don't have all the Juicer rules yet. We don't know what spending a burn point does.

a lot...
it does a lot...
at the basic level you can spend a point of burn to add your burn die (1d10) to any trait (stat, skill, etc...) or damage roll.
Keep in mind the typical TN (target number) in Savage Worlds is 4 unless it is a damage roll. For every 4 points over the TN that is something above and beyond a normal success (in the case of damage every 4 points over the TN is a wound).
Then there are the juicer edges that go beyond the basics.

[Shark_Force]

We still don't have all the Juicer rules yet. We don't know what spending a burn point does.

a lot...
it does a lot...
at the basic level you can spend a point of burn to add your burn die (1d10) to any trait (stat, skill, etc...) or damage roll.
Keep in mind the typical TN (target number) in Savage Worlds is 4 unless it is a damage roll. For every 4 points over the TN that is something above and beyond a normal success (in the case of damage every 4 points over the TN is a wound).
Then there are the juicer edges that go beyond the basics.

sure, but you're taking a significant hit to your life expectancy. every point you lose is speeding up future loss of points.

as was noted, this feels like something you would use extremely rarely, if ever, in its current form, rather than being a real living breathing part of the class that contributes in a major way to how you play the character. currently, it makes you not want to use burn... which feels like it should be the exact opposite when playing a juicer. juicers should be all about taking risks, not so much about avoiding them.

[13eowulf]

We still don't have all the Juicer rules yet. We don't know what spending a burn point does.

a lot...
it does a lot...
at the basic level you can spend a point of burn to add your burn die (1d10) to any trait (stat, skill, etc...) or damage roll.
Keep in mind the typical TN (target number) in Savage Worlds is 4 unless it is a damage roll. For every 4 points over the TN that is something above and beyond a normal success (in the case of damage every 4 points over the TN is a wound).
Then there are the juicer edges that go beyond the basics.

So Juicers are a 10 session character at best, unless you do nothing special and roll well at the start of every session.

My enthusiasm for this project is diminishing somewhat. PC body count is not how I measure success in a campaign....

[Jefffar]

We still don't have all the Juicer rules yet. We don't know what spending a burn point does.

a lot...
it does a lot...
at the basic level you can spend a point of burn to add your burn die (1d10) to any trait (stat, skill, etc...) or damage roll.
Keep in mind the typical TN (target number) in Savage Worlds is 4 unless it is a damage roll. For every 4 points over the TN that is something above and beyond a normal success (in the case of damage every 4 points over the TN is a wound).
Then there are the juicer edges that go beyond the basics.

I think there may still be other things to learn. There seems to be an assumption that spending a burn point that way is a permenant loss, which I think is the cause of much consternation.

Exactly how one spends the Burn Point and when is still not discussed, nor is it confirmed that they are lost permenantly when spent. Those details, plus the special edges are big holes in our knowledge to be plugged.

[eliakon]

I will wait to make any pronouncements of doom and gloom until I actually see the rules in there entirety and have some time to run some simulations with them to see how they work out in actual play.
Yeah the mechanics will be massively different. That was a given when the word 'conversion' comes up. The devil is in the details. If the flavor of the world can be kept then I am fine with some things changing. If flavor has to be sacrificed though then no I am not going to be happy.

And I will say that no I do not measure success in body count or consider lethality or danger to be part of the flavor of the setting. Anyone can make a game dangerous or deadly that is literally a no brainer. The trick is to make settings and mechanics that are just dangerous enough to be fun, but not dangerous enough to be boring.

Sure I would like juicers to have some sort of 'price' to pay. Why? Because the 'theme' of the juicer is 'pay a huge price for your power'... And if you don't ever end up having to ever pay that price. If no one is ever expected to ever pay that price, then its not really there. The current set up hurts the juicer concept and frankly is one of the reasons that Juicers are often banned by GMs. Because many people see it as a way to get 'free power' that has no price attached, since any costs will never actually come up in play.
But by the same token I don't want a juicer that is pointless either. Yes getting juiced is a terminal illness, yes it is a death sentence, and yes make no bones about it that character will die....but it doesn't have to mean that your going to be a disposable red shirt either. The trick is, as I said, to strike a balance and find a sweet spot where the price of power is just high enough that many, though not all, are leery of the seductive power offered by the juice...

[Damian Magecraft]

We still don't have all the Juicer rules yet. We don't know what spending a burn point does.

a lot...
it does a lot...
at the basic level you can spend a point of burn to add your burn die (1d10) to any trait (stat, skill, etc...) or damage roll.
Keep in mind the typical TN (target number) in Savage Worlds is 4 unless it is a damage roll. For every 4 points over the TN that is something above and beyond a normal success (in the case of damage every 4 points over the TN is a wound).
Then there are the juicer edges that go beyond the basics.

I think there may still be other things to learn. There seems to be an assumption that spending a burn point that way is a permenant loss, which I think is the cause of much consternation.

Exactly how one spends the Burn Point and when is still not discussed, nor is it confirmed that they are lost permenantly when spent. Those details, plus the special edges are big holes in our knowledge to be plugged.

another assumption is that burn is the only way the juicer gets to be... well... a juicer.
Juicers still get all their cool juicer abilities. Burn is for Last Call and uber over the top extra stuff not the mundane everyday juicer tricks.

[Daniel Stoker]

So Juicers are a 10 session character at best, unless you do nothing special and roll well at the start of every session.

My enthusiasm for this project is diminishing somewhat. PC body count is not how I measure success in a campaign....

Well 10 session character at worst and don't do something like spend one of your bennies to retain a burn point (which I gather you can do and you regain them every session? Yes? No?)


Daniel Stoker

[PigLickJF]

We still don't have all the Juicer rules yet. We don't know what spending a burn point does.

a lot...
it does a lot...
at the basic level you can spend a point of burn to add your burn die (1d10) to any trait (stat, skill, etc...) or damage roll.
Keep in mind the typical TN (target number) in Savage Worlds is 4 unless it is a damage roll. For every 4 points over the TN that is something above and beyond a normal success (in the case of damage every 4 points over the TN is a wound).
Then there are the juicer edges that go beyond the basics.

Again, I need to get more familiar with Savage Worlds rules so I probably shouldn't be commenting quite yet, but that doesn't seem like all that much to me, given what you're trading away. A chance (a decent chance, but still only a chance) at having a greater effect for one roll in exchange for an essentially guaranteed shorter lifespan doesn't seem like a good trade to me, unless it's a "save or die" situation in the first place or. I don't know how common those types of scenarios are in Savage Worlds games, though. It's also true that a way to "earn back" spent burn (though it's made pretty clear that's not a possibility) or even avoid the potential random loss of burn at the start of each session would change the equation, which is why I'm definitely reserving judgement.

I do like the general idea, but I'll have to see how it actually plays out mechanically. I guess if worst comes to worst you could just never spend burn, so normal random attrition would be the only way you're losing it, thereby maximizing your lifespan.

[Tiree]

I have been reading all the support material for Savage Rifts, and I am liking what is coming out. There are a couple of minor nits, that I am not sure I like or can be answered at this time. If they can, I'd appreciate it, and would help me decide on whether to back it or not.

1. The fonts in the banner: Oddly enough I can't stand the stupid orange/yellow fonts used in banners.

ICONIC FRAMEWORKS—FRONT LOADING POWER

above is just one such banner that was listed in that yellow orange font. The letters are too blocky for my taste, and makes it very tough for me to read. I really hope the books don't use this, as it detracts from the game and makes it less likely for me to want it.

2. Manga Format: I know the Savage Worlds folks are probably used to the Manga format. But the Rifts folks, well the Robotech Folks who received Manga from Palladium, really disliked it. Will a larger format be available, even at a later date?

3. Digital Editions: One of the things that has been throwing me for a loop is the digital edition of the main book. Explorer Edition vs. Deluxe Edition, what's the big difference. Which should I buy? If I want something standard size, which version?

[13eowulf]

I have been reading all the support material for Savage Rifts, and I am liking what is coming out. There are a couple of minor nits, that I am not sure I like or can be answered at this time. If they can, I'd appreciate it, and would help me decide on whether to back it or not.

1. The fonts in the banner: Oddly enough I can't stand the stupid orange/yellow fonts used in banners.

ICONIC FRAMEWORKS—FRONT LOADING POWER

above is just one such banner that was listed in that yellow orange font. The letters are too blocky for my taste, and makes it very tough for me to read. I really hope the books don't use this, as it detracts from the game and makes it less likely for me to want it.

2. Manga Format: I know the Savage Worlds folks are probably used to the Manga format. But the Rifts folks, well the Robotech Folks who received Manga from Palladium, really disliked it. Will a larger format be available, even at a later date?

3. Digital Editions: One of the things that has been throwing me for a loop is the digital edition of the main book. Explorer Edition vs. Deluxe Edition, what's the big difference. Which should I buy? If I want something standard size, which version?

In regards to #2, it is graphic novel (comic book) sized, not Manga, from my understanding.

[Jefffar]

Yes, from the measurements on the company website is is manga-sized in the sense that BESM 2nd Edition was manga-sized rather than the way Robotech 2nd Edition was mandga-sized.

[Alrik Vas]

Overall, Juicer burn seems pretty amazing. Very cool. Though one thing would be cool if they'd adjust the death rate based on health/stamina (whatever they use) rather than pure random.

Though of course the danger there is players figuring out how to make an immortal juicer.

[palladiumjunkie]

3. Digital Editions: One of the things that has been throwing me for a loop is the digital edition of the main book. Explorer Edition vs. Deluxe Edition, what's the big difference. Which should I buy? If I want something standard size, which version?

They are the same book, only the print format is different. Not sure how much that actually matters, though, if you are buying a digital copy... unless you plan on printing it off. Here is their statement on the matter:

*** The contents of the Savage Worlds Deluxe: Explorer's Edition and Savage Worlds Deluxe are the same. The Explorer's Edition is formatted for 6.5"x9" while Savage Worlds Deluxe is 8.5"x11". ***

EDIT: As for the reason behind different copies of the same thing, when Savage Worlds Deluxe was released, the initial print run was a standard size book. They publish both their physical, and digital, books simultaneously. So the full size book was put up on Drivethru at that time. It was a year or two before they published an explorers sized copy of the book, and they published a PDF copy of that one at that time, as well.
-Chris

[glitterboy2098]

Overall, Juicer burn seems pretty amazing. Very cool. Though one thing would be cool if they'd adjust the death rate based on health/stamina (whatever they use) rather than pure random.

Though of course the danger there is players figuring out how to make an immortal juicer.

it would probably be easy enough for Gm's to grant a few extra points every few sessions if a juicer looks to be burning through the points too fast. you could justify it as periods of rest giving the juicer time to heal some of the damage from the over-exertion or them getting a 2nd wind, etc. that would let a Gm ensure a juicer doesn't burn out after only a few sessions.. but also would let them adjust things so that player's can't easily game the system to create immortal Juicers. a juicer that does something totally awesome or plot relevant could thus be rewarded by a GM.. while one that wastes their points by burning through them for largely useless stuff or without thinking their action through would get not.

[The Beast]

How is skill selection handled? Is it more flexible, or is it the same lousy, cookie-cutter system currently used?

[dragonfett]

The Savage Worlds system's skill selection is very much flexible.

[blackwingedheaven]

How is skill selection handled? Is it more flexible, or is it the same lousy, cookie-cutter system currently used?

Savage Worlds core has 23 skills instead of the dozens and dozens in Rifts. Each skill is pretty broad, so Fighting represents skill with all forms of close combat, Shooting is skill in all ranged weapons (whether guns or bows), and Throwing is your skill with thrown objects like knives and grenades. You start with 15 skill points and each point raises the skill a die type (so 1 point is d4, another point is d6 and so on). The skills are linked to your Attributes, so Fighting is linked to Agility, for example. Once your skill level goes above the linked Attribute, the skill costs double, representing it being more difficult to advance your training beyond your natural limits. So if you have Agility d6, raising your Fighting skill to d8 costs 4 points (1 for d4, 1 more for d6, then 2 more for d8).

Having a d4 in a skill represents basic training, d6 is competence, d8 is excellence, d10 is superior, and d12 makes you one of the best in the world. If you don't have a given skill, you can roll it at d4-2. Whenever you roll a skill in Savage Worlds you also roll an additional d6 (called the Wild Die) and take the better of the two dice. If you roll maximum on any die, you roll it again and add on (this is called "Acing"). So if you have d8 Fighting, you roll a d8 and a d6; if you get a 7 on the d8 and a 6 on the d6, you roll the d6 again; should you roll a 3 on the second d6, you then have results of 7 and 9, so you take the 9 as your final result.

Most target numbers in Savage Worlds are 4, though numbers in combat might be higher, or there might be penalties based on difficulty. Getting 4 above your target number (called a "raise") usually results in a better result of some kind.

Hope that helps!

[The Beast]

How is skill selection handled? Is it more flexible, or is it the same lousy, cookie-cutter system currently used?

Savage Worlds core has 23 skills instead of the dozens and dozens in Rifts. Each skill is pretty broad, so Fighting represents skill with all forms of close combat, Shooting is skill in all ranged weapons (whether guns or bows), and Throwing is your skill with thrown objects like knives and grenades. You start with 15 skill points and each point raises the skill a die type (so 1 point is d4, another point is d6 and so on). The skills are linked to your Attributes, so Fighting is linked to Agility, for example. Once your skill level goes above the linked Attribute, the skill costs double, representing it being more difficult to advance your training beyond your natural limits. So if you have Agility d6, raising your Fighting skill to d8 costs 4 points (1 for d4, 1 more for d6, then 2 more for d8).

Having a d4 in a skill represents basic training, d6 is competence, d8 is excellence, d10 is superior, and d12 makes you one of the best in the world. If you don't have a given skill, you can roll it at d4-2. Whenever you roll a skill in Savage Worlds you also roll an additional d6 (called the Wild Die) and take the better of the two dice. If you roll maximum on any die, you roll it again and add on (this is called "Acing"). So if you have d8 Fighting, you roll a d8 and a d6; if you get a 7 on the d8 and a 6 on the d6, you roll the d6 again; should you roll a 3 on the second d6, you then have results of 7 and 9, so you take the 9 as your final result.

Most target numbers in Savage Worlds are 4, though numbers in combat might be higher, or there might be penalties based on difficulty. Getting 4 above your target number (called a "raise") usually results in a better result of some kind.

Hope that helps!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juFZh92MUOY

[Tiree]

3. Digital Editions: One of the things that has been throwing me for a loop is the digital edition of the main book. Explorer Edition vs. Deluxe Edition, what's the big difference. Which should I buy? If I want something standard size, which version?

They are the same book, only the print format is different. Not sure how much that actually matters, though, if you are buying a digital copy... unless you plan on printing it off. Here is their statement on the matter:

*** The contents of the Savage Worlds Deluxe: Explorer's Edition and Savage Worlds Deluxe are the same. The Explorer's Edition is formatted for 6.5"x9" while Savage Worlds Deluxe is 8.5"x11". ***

EDIT: As for the reason behind different copies of the same thing, when Savage Worlds Deluxe was released, the initial print run was a standard size book. They publish both their physical, and digital, books simultaneously. So the full size book was put up on Drivethru at that time. It was a year or two before they published an explorers sized copy of the book, and they published a PDF copy of that one at that time, as well.
-Chris

Thank you very much for the insights!