Hand to Hand: Magic

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Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by dragonfett »

I can't seem to remember, which Rifter did it appear in?
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Axelmania »

Galactus Kid said in 2012 at http://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/vi ... 1&t=128089 something called Arcomi was Rifter 30, Snape says page 31, not sure if this is what you mean

In 2015 eliakon mentions at http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... p?t=148566 there is also something called Arkenas in Rifter 29 page 21
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by dragonfett »

Thanks, I had tried doing a couple of searches but got back so many hits that I had no way of finding anything useful.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Glistam »

Hand to Hand: Magic is terrible and a perfect example of when fan-made creations go awry.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

The concept is okay in theory.
Every example of execution of it so far has ended up somewhere on the spectrum between "Munchkin bait" and "Mary Sue's Standard Issue"

The problem is that the magical combat rules are so nebulous and tied into classes that buffing up someone's magic skills with a simple H2H skill basically is impossible with out totally rewriting the system... or just granting the skill massive bonuses and abilities that no one with out it can hope to ever match. Neither of which is a viable solution.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Prysus »

Greetings and Salutations. Since the answer in the OP has been answered, I'll throw this out there as well. I did take an attempt at making a mystical based hand to hand style and posted them on my site.

Magic Combat: These are the rules I used as the basis for the hand to hand styles. They're basically the old (pre-RUE) rules, expanded slightly.
Hand to Hand: Spell Weaver
Hand to Hand: Spell Slinger
Hand to Hand: Magnus Arcanum

Those are three different styles, each with different abilities and strengths. I was/am working on a forth, but got distracted before I finished it (it's on my "to do" list). My goal for these hand to hand styles was to give options. You can take one, and become a better spell caster but start to lack in hand to hand combat. Alternatively, you can excel in hand to hand combat (as the rules stood before), but not be as proficient at magic. So you get to be the bad arse magic user, or you can use magic to set the stage (buffs, ambush, etc.) but once combat starts you're better off switching to more traditional methods. Note: These styles were meant to accompany other additional styles for psychics, as well as Men at Arms. The overall concept had been more of a N&S feel, with more of a focus on the fantasy aspects.

eliakon wrote:The concept is okay in theory.
Every example of execution of it so far has ended up somewhere on the spectrum between "Munchkin bait" and "Mary Sue's Standard Issue"

The problem is that the magical combat rules are so nebulous and tied into classes that buffing up someone's magic skills with a simple H2H skill basically is impossible with out totally rewriting the system... or just granting the skill massive bonuses and abilities that no one with out it can hope to ever match. Neither of which is a viable solution.

I'd be curious where you feel mine fall into the spectrum, though if this thread isn't the most appropriate forum for such a discussion I do accept PM. Farewell and safe journeys for now.


P.S. Edited to add the links. I forgot when I first posted.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Glistam wrote:Hand to Hand: Magic is terrible and a perfect example of when fan-made creations go awry.

They are also Pre-Rue when the standard rules about cast spells limited most PC to Two per melee round.
*waves and and is not going to go into details.
So people were trying to let their spell casters get off more spells per melee.

The 2nd best are the PPE channeling rules in R21. The best being what's in RUE.)

As far as I'm concerned, except for the Mana Channeling in R21, all the other ones are defunct due to RUE's.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

I think remember a refance from way back to a PB game with something like that (think the TMNT game) that inspired the idea. It was like 14 years ago so I may be off and never looked into it.
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Wed May 04, 2016 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

dragonfett wrote:I can't seem to remember, which Rifter did it appear in?

I'm sure there have been HTH styles revolving around magic in the Rifter, but there have been cases of Palladium having essentially a "HTH: Mage" skill or skills in older lines like TMNT (Trans dimensional Turtles specifically pg42 & 49 essentially) and in 1E Palladium Fantasy (easily referenced in the GM Shield in the Cutting Room floor) that list multiple forms of magic progression in terms of combat (though I believe they are closer to WP than HTH skill).
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Glistam »

The OP isn't talking about the old advancement/level progression the "spells per day" mages in the old books used to follow. This is what the OP is talking about:
An irredeemably terrible fan creation wrote:
Hand to Hand: Magic

This is a Hand to Hand skill that only applies to heavy magic users such as Lay Line Walkers, Mystics, Shifters, Warlocks and various others (G.M.'s discretion, not available to Techno Wizards). The idea is, that if a Magic user spends enough time honing his magic skills, then it becomes useless to even bother with physical fighting.

Level:
1. 2 physical attacks per melee, 3 attacks with magic. +3 to Parry, +3 to Dodge, 2D6×10 to P.P.E. +3 to strike using magic +1 to parry energy/ projectile weapons using magic spells such as 'fireball' or 'call lightning' (only those with Hand to Hand: Magic can do this, a parry in this fashion counts as one Hand to Hand attack, and spends P.P.E) can also cast defensive spells, such as 'Armor of Ithan' as a parry but has no bonus to do so. +3 to save vs. magic.
2. +1 to parry using magic
3. +1 to parry +1 dodge (physical), 1 additional magic attack per melee, +2 strike using magic
4. +2 save vs. magic, +3 save vs. psionics
5. +2 parry using magic, 1D4×10 to P.P.E.
6. 3 additional spells from any level
7. +5 save vs. horror factor
8. 1 additional physical attack, 1 additional magic attack
9. +3 initiative. +1 parry (physical). +1 strike using magic
10. 2D4×10 to P.P.E.
11. +1 to strike and parry using magic
12. +2 save vs. magic. +1 strike, parry and dodge (physical)
13. 4 additional spells from any level
14. 2 additional magic attacks per melee
15. 3D4×10 to P.P.E.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Glistam wrote:The OP isn't talking about the old advancement/level progression the "spells per day" mages in the old books used to follow. This is what the OP is talking about:
An irredeemably terrible fan creation wrote:
Hand to Hand: Magic

This is a Hand to Hand skill that only applies to heavy magic users such as Lay Line Walkers, Mystics, Shifters, Warlocks and various others (G.M.'s discretion, not available to Techno Wizards). The idea is, that if a Magic user spends enough time honing his magic skills, then it becomes useless to even bother with physical fighting.

Level:
1. 2 physical attacks per melee, 3 attacks with magic. +3 to Parry, +3 to Dodge, 2D6×10 to P.P.E. +3 to strike using magic +1 to parry energy/ projectile weapons using magic spells such as 'fireball' or 'call lightning' (only those with Hand to Hand: Magic can do this, a parry in this fashion counts as one Hand to Hand attack, and spends P.P.E) can also cast defensive spells, such as 'Armor of Ithan' as a parry but has no bonus to do so. +3 to save vs. magic.
2. +1 to parry using magic
3. +1 to parry +1 dodge (physical), 1 additional magic attack per melee, +2 strike using magic
4. +2 save vs. magic, +3 save vs. psionics
5. +2 parry using magic, 1D4×10 to P.P.E.
6. 3 additional spells from any level
7. +5 save vs. horror factor
8. 1 additional physical attack, 1 additional magic attack
9. +3 initiative. +1 parry (physical). +1 strike using magic
10. 2D4×10 to P.P.E.
11. +1 to strike and parry using magic
12. +2 save vs. magic. +1 strike, parry and dodge (physical)
13. 4 additional spells from any level
14. 2 additional magic attacks per melee
15. 3D4×10 to P.P.E.

Wow just wow some of that stuff is really OP. Spells from any level at level 6, casting protecting spells as a parry wow really. I parry your laser blast by casting impervious to energy. Massive PPE boosts and way to high bonuses +7(max) to save vs magic. magic attack/spells 7 a turn plus three physical attacks at max level. that is better than marital arts.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Wow. This makes the Charlie Foxtrot that was my old magical combat rules look wonderful and balanced.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Axelmania »

I'd rather just get bonus magic attacks instead of an alternate pool, rates of fire that only benefit you when that's all you do (or which you need to calculate equivalent hand to hand costs and ratios) are mostly frustrating.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Glistam wrote:The OP isn't talking about the old advancement/level progression the "spells per day" mages in the old books used to follow. This is what the OP is talking about:

No the stuff I'm referencing isn't the "spells per day" aspect in the system, but rather bonuses and the number of spells per melee they could cast w/n combat. The Spells per day hardly requires listing it in the format of various HTH styles like these are since it covers per melee basis and other modifiers.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Sureshot »

I see nothing wrong with the fighting style. The only thing I would change is the extra spells per level. Replacing it instead with making the magic harder to save. increasing the number needed to save.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Axelmania wrote:I'd rather just get bonus magic attacks instead of an alternate pool, rates of fire that only benefit you when that's all you do (or which you need to calculate equivalent hand to hand costs and ratios) are mostly frustrating.


Agreed. The system is complex enough without having to calculate how many spell attacks you lost because you dodged.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by PigLickJF »

I actually like the idea of casting a defensive spell in place of a parry, though I'd have it replace a dodge, so it still costs an action (and I suppose it should be limited to spells that only cost one action to cast).

I do agree about the addition of extra attacks only for certain types of actions, though. That's just confusing. I understand the desire, but in practice it's just messy.

I've often thought of using some sort of "action point" system for Rifts/Palladium games, so instead of just a certain number of "attacks" per round, you have a pool of action points, and different actions take different numbers of points. Never really bothered to actually try and make such a thing, though, and again, in practice it may just end up being more trouble than it's worth.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Library Ogre »

PigLickJF wrote:I actually like the idea of casting a defensive spell in place of a parry, though I'd have it replace a dodge, so it still costs an action (and I suppose it should be limited to spells that only cost one action to cast).

I do agree about the addition of extra attacks only for certain types of actions, though. That's just confusing. I understand the desire, but in practice it's just messy.

I've often thought of using some sort of "action point" system for Rifts/Palladium games, so instead of just a certain number of "attacks" per round, you have a pool of action points, and different actions take different numbers of points. Never really bothered to actually try and make such a thing, though, and again, in practice it may just end up being more trouble than it's worth.


Hackmaster did away with rounds, and has actions take place in seconds... so it takes a few seconds to cast a spell, a few seconds to recover, it might take a few seconds to get an effective attack with a sword, etc.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by PigLickJF »

That's a way to go too, but I think that's a bit too granular and not quite abstract enough for my tastes, though I'm sure it has its own advantages.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

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PigLickJF wrote:I actually like the idea of casting a defensive spell in place of a parry, though I'd have it replace a dodge, so it still costs an action (and I suppose it should be limited to spells that only cost one action to cast).

I do agree about the addition of extra attacks only for certain types of actions, though. That's just confusing. I understand the desire, but in practice it's just messy.

I've often thought of using some sort of "action point" system for Rifts/Palladium games, so instead of just a certain number of "attacks" per round, you have a pool of action points, and different actions take different numbers of points. Never really bothered to actually try and make such a thing, though, and again, in practice it may just end up being more trouble than it's worth.


My character is a Wolfen Ley Line Walker with this hand to hand style (the GM had sent me a copy of it saying that it was a style that my character could take) and in order to use the defensive magic casting, you still use an action despite the fact that it's using a "parry".
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by 42dragon »

I have always preferred the PPE channeling rules in R21. And allowed a parry with a defensive spell if you could cast it in one action and had an action or more left that round. But at middle levels, you could burn through your PPE fast if you weren't near a Ley Line or Nexus.
I also often use the RMB HtH combat skills, without the +2 attacks for living. Just personal preference. Not everyone needs 6+ attacks per round.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by dragonfett »

I have always felt that the PPE channeling was the most balanced option. I chose the HtH: Magic skill my GM presented me with really more to try it out.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by PigLickJF »

I like the idea of channeling as well, though I've never actually played in a game where it was being used.

I don't think channeling necessarily precludes some sort of HtH: Magic though, but if you're using both they should each be designed/implemented with the other in mind.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

I may be in a minority here...
But I have never had a problem with using the rules as written. Especially the RUE ones.
Low level spells use one action.
Mid level spells are like a power blow or aimed shot and take two actions
High level spells are like a called aimed shot and take three actions.

Quick, easy granular. Yah sure its a bit cinematic. But the whole game is cinematic. If I want a hard game I go play something like GURPs and layer on the optional rules.

While I would usually not allow a spell to be cast as a parry (that way leads to some pretty serious abuses) I have allowed a 'simultaneous attack' with a spell more than once. You take the other guys hit, and you get your spell off (as long as it is a one action spell of course).

In my experience mages in Palladium are already very powerful and don't really need to have additional bonuses stacked on top of them in the form of a specialized combat skill to optimize their already ludicrously dangerous abilities. If the group feels the need to buff up mages there are plenty of ways in the game already (literally hundreds of spells, sorcerous proficiencies, etc.)
PPE channeling, sort of, kind of, almost worked a little back in the old days, but I never liked it and after RUE it was IMHO less than pointless.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Axelmania »

Mark Hall wrote:
Axelmania wrote:I'd rather just get bonus magic attacks instead of an alternate pool, rates of fire that only benefit you when that's all you do (or which you need to calculate equivalent hand to hand costs and ratios) are mostly frustrating.


Agreed. The system is complex enough without having to calculate how many spell attacks you lost because you dodged.

I think I've seen this for guns, like some class got +1 shot with a gun per melee (no requirement any of the usual attacks be shots) so even if you had some amazing rune sword which did more damage, it would still give incentive to fire the gun. Or like how yuo get the bonus breath attack in Atlantis from Bio-Wizardry. Getting this with magic would be nice, let mages mix in spells with otherwise maybe more reliable weapons.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by PigLickJF »

Axelmania wrote:I think I've seen this for guns, like some class got +1 shot with a gun per melee (no requirement any of the usual attacks be shots) so even if you had some amazing rune sword which did more damage, it would still give incentive to fire the gun. Or like how yuo get the bonus breath attack in Atlantis from Bio-Wizardry. Getting this with magic would be nice, let mages mix in spells with otherwise maybe more reliable weapons.

I know the Gunfighter and Gunslinger get this type of thing (in fact I think it's built into the WP Sharpshooting skill). You get one extra attack when using that weapon (type) for the entire round.

It's not horribly confusing, but it does add another level of complexity to track not just how many attacks/actions you've used/have left, but types of actions they were and how that affects your pool of remaining actions.

As I said though, I understand the desire for this type of thing, because having everything tied to your hand to hand skill doesn't make much sense either. You should be able to make a shootist/spellcaster that can't fight his way out of a paper bag in a fistfight but can sling bullets/spells like no one's business.

Which is what led me to thinking about an action point system instead. That way you have the option of just straight increasing the AP pool for those quick characters who can just "do more" in a given amount of time (juicers, etc.), or you could reduce the AP cost of certain activities for characters who specialize in those things, thereby letting them do those things more quickly/more often without just letting them do everything more quickly/often.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Sureshot »

The magic system is decent. Though far from perfect. The numbers required to save against spells is too easy imo. No other class but the mages lose a spell when taking damage. I would find it fair if both psychics and combat oriented classes would also lose a psionic ability or attack when hit. Negate mechanics to me is a joke of a spell compared to what psychics can do. They can paralyze or take over tech. yet somehow the mages can't. Parrying with a spell why not. As long as the player makes sure to keep track of the PPE spent. I don't see it broken by any means. Considering how many bonuses one has to keep track off in terms of skills, hand to hand, etc. It's a bit more math on top of a system that already has too much of it imo.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Glistam »

Sureshot wrote:The magic system is decent. Though far from perfect. The numbers required to save against spells is too easy imo. No other class but the mages lose a spell when taking damage. I would find it fair if both psychics and combat oriented classes would also lose a psionic ability or attack when hit. Negate mechanics to me is a joke of a spell compared to what psychics can do. They can paralyze or take over tech. yet somehow the mages can't. Parrying with a spell why not. As long as the player makes sure to keep track of the PPE spent. I don't see it broken by any means. Considering how many bonuses one has to keep track off in terms of skills, hand to hand, etc. It's a bit more math on top of a system that already has too much of it imo.

Psychics may be better at using their powers to mess with tech, but Mages beat them out by being better at messing with your mind - Trance, Domination, Compulsion, Apparation, Mental Shock, Soultwist, Ensorcel, Somebody Makes Them... There's so many more that didn't come immediately to mind that also qualify.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Sureshot »

Glistam wrote:Psychics may be better at using their powers to mess with tech, but Mages beat them out by being better at messing with your mind - Trance, Domination, Compulsion, Apparation, Mental Shock, Soultwist, Ensorcel, Somebody Makes Them... There's so many more that didn't come immediately to mind that also qualify.


Not that they ever really gave a good reason why psychics were suddenly good at messing with tech. Beyond the usual " would it be cool if psychics were suddenly able to really screw over tech based enemies". I'm not saying Mages don't have any good spells they do. Given the fight between the Cs and Tolkeen. I see no reason why mages can't have better anti-tech magic at this point. At the very least I can see a magic occ specializing in working with anti-tech magic. Why does it have to be regular humans and their tech that can only upgrade. Why not both mages and psychics over time as well.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

Sureshot wrote:
Glistam wrote:Psychics may be better at using their powers to mess with tech, but Mages beat them out by being better at messing with your mind - Trance, Domination, Compulsion, Apparation, Mental Shock, Soultwist, Ensorcel, Somebody Makes Them... There's so many more that didn't come immediately to mind that also qualify.


Not that they ever really gave a good reason why psychics were suddenly good at messing with tech. Beyond the usual " would it be cool if psychics were suddenly able to really screw over tech based enemies". I'm not saying Mages don't have any good spells they do. Given the fight between the Cs and Tolkeen. I see no reason why mages can't have better anti-tech magic at this point. At the very least I can see a magic occ specializing in working with anti-tech magic. Why does it have to be regular humans and their tech that can only upgrade. Why not both mages and psychics over time as well.

There are a number of technological spells out there actually. Machine Empathy, Electromagnetic Attack, Metamorphosis: Energy, Invisibility to Sensors, Engine Flame Out... its out there.

Which is one of the things about mages. There's an app, err, spell for that.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:
Sureshot wrote:
Glistam wrote:Psychics may be better at using their powers to mess with tech, but Mages beat them out by being better at messing with your mind - Trance, Domination, Compulsion, Apparation, Mental Shock, Soultwist, Ensorcel, Somebody Makes Them... There's so many more that didn't come immediately to mind that also qualify.


Not that they ever really gave a good reason why psychics were suddenly good at messing with tech. Beyond the usual " would it be cool if psychics were suddenly able to really screw over tech based enemies". I'm not saying Mages don't have any good spells they do. Given the fight between the Cs and Tolkeen. I see no reason why mages can't have better anti-tech magic at this point. At the very least I can see a magic occ specializing in working with anti-tech magic. Why does it have to be regular humans and their tech that can only upgrade. Why not both mages and psychics over time as well.

There are a number of technological spells out there actually. Machine Empathy, Electromagnetic Attack, Metamorphosis: Energy, Invisibility to Sensors, Engine Flame Out... its out there.

Which is one of the things about mages. There's an app, err, spell for that.

Well there are several spells that are really good at stopping tech like negate mechanics. Some spells that cause major problems to tech just by what they do. Summon storm by the book stops air travel. Many spells that work good against tech do so against more than just tech. Invisible superior works against both living and tech. Invulnerability protects against tech really well, as well as supernatural.

(Those spells you just listed I never seen the names before where they from?)
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

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eliakon wrote:While I would usually not allow a spell to be cast as a parry (that way leads to some pretty serious abuses) I have allowed a 'simultaneous attack' with a spell more than once. You take the other guys hit, and you get your spell off (as long as it is a one action spell of course).

definately not a parry, since being able to cast spells without spending actions seems very unbalanced.

but i'd have no problem allowing a single action (lv1-5) defensive spell being cast like a standard dodge in response to an attack. ditto a single action offensive spell being cast as a simultaneous attack.

on both cases your spending some of your attacks per melee, which means that your using up you attacks faster and leaving yourself vulnerable to unopposed attack later.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

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Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:<snip>Machine Empathy, Electromagnetic Attack, Metamorphosis: Energy, Invisibility to Sensors, Engine Flame Out...</snip>

(Those spells you just listed I never seen the names before where they from?)

Electromagnetic Attack, Invisibility to Sensors and Engine Flame Out are (iirc) all combat magic from Merc Adventures

Machine Empathy and Metamorphosis: Energy... no bloody clue never heard of them.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
eliakon wrote:While I would usually not allow a spell to be cast as a parry (that way leads to some pretty serious abuses) I have allowed a 'simultaneous attack' with a spell more than once. You take the other guys hit, and you get your spell off (as long as it is a one action spell of course).

definately not a parry, since being able to cast spells without spending actions seems very unbalanced.

but i'd have no problem allowing a single action (lv1-5) defensive spell being cast like a standard dodge in response to an attack. ditto a single action offensive spell being cast as a simultaneous attack.

on both cases your spending some of your attacks per melee, which means that your using up you attacks faster and leaving yourself vulnerable to unopposed attack later.

Yea I can see a dodge using an action for defensive spells. The parry ranged with a attack spell to me is like saying I am going to shoot your bullet, not something hand to hand(or rifts mechanics) should normally allow.


Machine empathy sounds like a psi power.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Sureshot »

eliakon wrote:There are a number of technological spells out there actually. Machine Empathy, Electromagnetic Attack, Metamorphosis: Energy, Invisibility to Sensors, Engine Flame Out... its out there.

Which is one of the things about mages. There's an app, err, spell for that.


I know their some good anti-tech spells. I just wish their was a magical version of Telemechanical Paralysis and Possession. Their is even a reason for it because of what happened in the setting with SOT. I would like to see a Hand to Hand Magic. That being said one that is useful and not too nerfed. Not interested in options that make characters less useful.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by eliakon »

Metamorphosis: Energy and Machine Empathy are two of the technology spells in the Canon Rifter article on computer hacking in Rifter #2

Mercenary Adventures has the Combat Magic which ups the game for magic a lot with a huge number of ludicrously potent spells, several of which are specialized in defeating technology.

As for a H2H: Magic I am not really sure what bonuses you could really give it that would not be abusive that a mage wants?
You can't really give it Spell Strength, penalize others saves, speed up casting...
Possibly some strike rolls, maybe a 'critical strike' for spells on a n20 with a n19 at a suitably high level and some PPE every few levels?

Most of the things people want to give mages in H2H: Magic I see as being the province of the OCC proper, or Sorcerous Proficiencies.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

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Why not raise the spell strength at the very least. It's fairly easy to save against magic imo. Making it a little harder I don't think will break the game. I take a lot of what is in Mercanary Adventures in terms of Combat Magic with a grain of salt. Some of them are good. Some are bad. Some are not worth the paper they are written on imo. Bulletproof I mean really. Let's take a SDC version of Armor of Ithan and try and make it viable by saying it's worth taking in a city environment. Ones does not walk around in a MDC environment with SDC protection. City or out in the open I'm staying with MDC protection at all times. It's not as if anyone can force one to take the less protective version. Not to mention some of those spells should be general magic spells open to everyone imo. Electromagnetic attack should be open to all mages given what the CS did to Tolkien and not be limited to a OCC. I looked through the book when I bought it and tonight and next game. Most if not all of those spells at least in my games will be open to be taken by any and all mages classes. Even the Combat Mage as a O.C.C. Considering the restrictions it has I won't see anyone willing to play them to lose the benefits of say a Ley Line Walker. Very specific class with no really major benefits imo. Hell I could do more with a Shifter and the right minions than a Combat Mage.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

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Sureshot wrote:Why not raise the spell strength at the very least. It's fairly easy to save against magic imo. Making it a little harder I don't think will break the game. I take a lot of what is in Mercanary Adventures in terms of Combat Magic with a grain of salt. Some of them are good. Some are bad. Some are not worth the paper they are written on imo. Bulletproof I mean really. Let's take a SDC version of Armor of Ithan and try and make it viable by saying it's worth taking in a city environment. Ones does not walk around in a MDC environment with SDC protection. City or out in the open I'm staying with MDC protection at all times. It's not as if anyone can force one to take the less protective version. Not to mention some of those spells should be general magic spells open to everyone imo. Electromagnetic attack should be open to all mages given what the CS did to Tolkien and not be limited to a OCC. I looked through the book when I bought it and tonight and next game. Most if not all of those spells at least in my games will be open to be taken by any and all mages classes. Even the Combat Mage as a O.C.C. Considering the restrictions it has I won't see anyone willing to play them to lose the benefits of say a Ley Line Walker. Very specific class with no really major benefits imo. Hell I could do more with a Shifter and the right minions than a Combat Mage.

That is one of I few books I do not have. I have my own take on combat magic.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by Glistam »

Combat Magic IS available to all Invocation mages, but it is considered a "lesser" form of magic that the educated frown upon and deride.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

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Well that's the reason given. Yet reading some of the spells. That's just a reason given in the book for the occ to exist. Along the lines of this is not only a redundant occ, it's less powerful than the core classes. So lets come up with a rather poor and imo unrealistic reason for limiting those spells. If I ever run Rifts again. That class does not exist and those spells will be allowed to be taken by and and all magic classes. It's like the robot occ that takes penalties for using a Glitterboy (page 84 RUE). All because apparently Glitter Boy suits are "too old" in terms of technology. Which is a very very poor in game reason to penalize a class whose job it is to pilot a robot. I like modern cars more than classic ones. Yet if someone were to give me the car from the movie Bullett or the Knight rider car. I'm not going to turn around and go " sorry not interested it's a classic car I like modern cars" .
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

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Sureshot wrote:Well that's the reason given. Yet reading some of the spells. That's just a reason given in the book for the occ to exist. Along the lines of this is not only a redundant occ, it's less powerful than the core classes. So lets come up with a rather poor and imo unrealistic reason for limiting those spells. If I ever run Rifts again. That class does not exist and those spells will be allowed to be taken by and and all magic classes. It's like the robot occ that takes penalties for using a Glitterboy (page 84 RUE). All because apparently Glitter Boy suits are "too old" in terms of technology. Which is a very very poor in game reason to penalize a class whose job it is to pilot a robot. I like modern cars more than classic ones. Yet if someone were to give me the car from the movie Bullett or the Knight rider car. I'm not going to turn around and go " sorry not interested it's a classic car I like modern cars" .

I do not have the book but I do see a need for military Mage OCCs, I even have some home brewed ones. No regular army is going to just take mages off the street and have them serve. They would go through a military training program that would likely change the OCC of a new mage. In addition large magic cities like Tolkeen(before its fall) and Lazlo would likely have an ROTC(ROTC is a program where students are trained to be officers) style mage training program where they teach potential mages in exchange for a mandatory term of service in the standing army.

The hard part is coming up with a way to make the mages in line units about as powerful than core mages without being redundant. The solution I came up with was a team work mechanic that allows the military mages to work well with other military mages and doing it in a way that does not affect core mages. (Team work is a big in the military) Also with the idea of an ROTC style program you can have SF mages stronger than core mages and about equal to the combat mages from FOM.

Note the team work mechanic would make such mages in most games a better GM tool than PC tool as most if not all the PCs would need to be mages with it to get the full affect.
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Re: Hand to Hand: Magic

Unread post by dragonfett »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Sureshot wrote:Well that's the reason given. Yet reading some of the spells. That's just a reason given in the book for the occ to exist. Along the lines of this is not only a redundant occ, it's less powerful than the core classes. So lets come up with a rather poor and imo unrealistic reason for limiting those spells. If I ever run Rifts again. That class does not exist and those spells will be allowed to be taken by and and all magic classes. It's like the robot occ that takes penalties for using a Glitterboy (page 84 RUE). All because apparently Glitter Boy suits are "too old" in terms of technology. Which is a very very poor in game reason to penalize a class whose job it is to pilot a robot. I like modern cars more than classic ones. Yet if someone were to give me the car from the movie Bullett or the Knight rider car. I'm not going to turn around and go " sorry not interested it's a classic car I like modern cars" .

I do not have the book but I do see a need for military Mage OCCs, I even have some home brewed ones. No regular army is going to just take mages off the street and have them serve. They would go through a military training program that would likely change the OCC of a new mage. In addition large magic cities like Tolkeen(before its fall) and Lazlo would likely have an ROTC(ROTC is a program where students are trained to be officers) style mage training program where they teach potential mages in exchange for a mandatory term of service in the standing army.

The hard part is coming up with a way to make the mages in line units about as powerful than core mages without being redundant. The solution I came up with was a team work mechanic that allows the military mages to work well with other military mages and doing it in a way that does not affect core mages. (Team work is a big in the military) Also with the idea of an ROTC style program you can have SF mages stronger than core mages and about equal to the combat mages from FOM.

Note the team work mechanic would make such mages in most games a better GM tool than PC tool as most if not all the PCs would need to be mages with it to get the full affect.


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