No Starting Armor Classes

[Serus Angel]

So I was taking a look a friend's copy of Dinosaur Swamp and Black Market books and noticed something interesting. A few of the Occupational Classes lack any kind of starting M.D.C. armor. What as a Gamemaster do you do with those classes if anything? Should a starting player in Rifts Earth receive M.D.C. armor as a matter of course or do you feel that starting characters should have to rely solely on their wits in the wild to try and survive? Do you just leave them with only S.D.C. foes, creatures and hazards?

I'm curious because all the classes do get the opportunity to start with M.D. grade weaponry (though you could always just reduce their starting equipment to S.D. only). Is the offense meant to be greater than the defense?

[Blue_Lion]

So I was taking a look a friend's copy of Dinosaur Swamp and Black Market books and noticed something interesting. A few of the Occupational Classes lack any kind of starting M.D.C. armor. What as a Gamemaster do you do with those classes if anything? Should a starting player in Rifts Earth receive M.D.C. armor as a matter of course or do you feel that starting characters should have to rely solely on their wits in the wild to try and survive? Do you just leave them with only S.D.C. foes, creatures and hazards?

I'm curious because all the classes do get the opportunity to start with M.D. grade weaponry (though you could always just reduce their starting equipment to S.D. only). Is the offense meant to be greater than the defense?

If it is a starting charter they get what it says they get. Could be a type-o or ment to be taken by mdc races or survive with your own wits. As a Gm it is not my problem if a player picks a OCC that lacks mdc defense.


As a player I have played a charter that had no mdc and survived by being very sneaky.

[ShadowLogan]

So I was taking a look a friend's copy of Dinosaur Swamp and Black Market books and noticed something interesting. A few of the Occupational Classes lack any kind of starting M.D.C. armor. What as a Gamemaster do you do with those classes if anything? Should a starting player in Rifts Earth receive M.D.C. armor as a matter of course or do you feel that starting characters should have to rely solely on their wits in the wild to try and survive? Do you just leave them with only S.D.C. foes, creatures and hazards?

I'm curious because all the classes do get the opportunity to start with M.D. grade weaponry (though you could always just reduce their starting equipment to S.D. only). Is the offense meant to be greater than the defense?

Some classes aren't intended for combat or adventuring and are there more for NPC support I think. Though that shouldn't stop anyone from playing them as an adventurer.

It might be an oversight, but there are a few solutions to it:
-PC spends some of their money to acquire armor, this might require some GM permission and raising the necessary capital
-GM gives the N/PC the equipment initially for free, if they think the character needs it for the adventure/campaign-start
-GM has the N/PC as a "capture target" for the knowledge, which requires they be alive and in good shape
-PC borrows a spare suit from a PC who has spare suit(s), some classes do get spare suits
-do nothing and "fight" in a different manner (sneaky, smart, avoid, inside a vehicle, etc)

[Serus Angel]

If it is a starting charter they get what it says they get. Could be a type-o or ment to be taken by mdc races or survive with your own wits. As a Gm it is not my problem if a player picks a OCC that lacks mdc defense.


As a player I have played a charter that had no mdc and survived by being very sneaky.

I'm pretty sure, could be wrong, that the class was meant for S.D.C. beings native to Rifts Earth (specifically humans). In particular, it was the Legacy Scout and Banker. However, I can see either of them surviving by their wits though in the wilds it probably would be difficult and the focus of the game. I'll keep your thoughts in mind.

Some classes aren't intended for combat or adventuring and are there more for NPC support I think. Though that shouldn't stop anyone from playing them as an adventurer.

It might be an oversight, but there are a few solutions to it:
-PC spends some of their money to acquire armor, this might require some GM permission and raising the necessary capital
-GM gives the N/PC the equipment initially for free, if they think the character needs it for the adventure/campaign-start
-GM has the N/PC as a "capture target" for the knowledge, which requires they be alive and in good shape
-PC borrows a spare suit from a PC who has spare suit(s), some classes do get spare suits
-do nothing and "fight" in a different manner (sneaky, smart, avoid, inside a vehicle, etc)

As for an oversight, it was the Banker and Legacy Scout write-ups. Both of them mention travelling with adventurers or going on adventures and being hands-on. Which solution on your list do you use in particular? I was thinking about what the average gamemaster might do cause I was thinking of maybe playing one of these in the future (should I be able to find a game). Hiding in a vehicle might be a good idea though neither gets one either

[say652]

I give Mdc armor. Because it's fair.

[Killer Cyborg]

In my day, Vagabonds didn't start with any Mega-Damage gear, and people played them just like any other class.
You just have to duck, dodge, and otherwise not get shot for a little while, until you get better gear.
If you can't make it a couple adventures without getting shot, then somebody is probably doing something wrong in my estimation.

[kaid]

So I was taking a look a friend's copy of Dinosaur Swamp and Black Market books and noticed something interesting. A few of the Occupational Classes lack any kind of starting M.D.C. armor. What as a Gamemaster do you do with those classes if anything? Should a starting player in Rifts Earth receive M.D.C. armor as a matter of course or do you feel that starting characters should have to rely solely on their wits in the wild to try and survive? Do you just leave them with only S.D.C. foes, creatures and hazards?

I'm curious because all the classes do get the opportunity to start with M.D. grade weaponry (though you could always just reduce their starting equipment to S.D. only). Is the offense meant to be greater than the defense?

If it is a starting charter they get what it says they get. Could be a type-o or ment to be taken by mdc races or survive with your own wits. As a Gm it is not my problem if a player picks a OCC that lacks mdc defense.


As a player I have played a charter that had no mdc and survived by being very sneaky.

There are a few odd ball OCC that don't automatically start with MDC armor listed in their starting gear. In the RUE I think one or two of the scholar occ don't have any armor listed at start even. Generally if you are playing a class like that you are going to tend to be a bit non combat initially anyway and in general basic MDC protection is not that expensive especially with the new MDC NG clothing lines or if you are in the dino swamps a friendly local eco wizard can likely at least make some basic hodge podge dino skin armor for a reasonable price.

[Serus Angel]

In my day, Vagabonds didn't start with any Mega-Damage gear, and people played them just like any other class.
You just have to duck, dodge, and otherwise not get shot for a little while, until you get better gear.
If you can't make it a couple adventures without getting shot, then somebody is probably doing something wrong in my estimation.

You have *far* better rolls to dodge than I do , but I catch your meaning.

There are a few odd ball OCC that don't automatically start with MDC armor listed in their starting gear. In the RUE I think one or two of the scholar occ don't have any armor listed at start even. Generally if you are playing a class like that you are going to tend to be a bit non combat initially anyway and in general basic MDC protection is not that expensive especially with the new MDC NG clothing lines or if you are in the dino swamps a friendly local eco wizard can likely at least make some basic hodge podge dino skin armor for a reasonable price.

Double checked and the Ultimate Edition gives all the Scholarly classes Light M.D.C. Armor in the starting gear. As for expensive, the NG Streetwolf stuff is nice, but it only provides body protection and legs at most (hands and arms aren't mentioned though I bet someone has house ruled them). A single called shot from an enemy bandit or sniper team and poof, no more limb and possible bleed out.

The Dinosaur Swamp armor had me intrigued, but I haven't seen a crafting system outside of the Techno-Wizard write-up. About how much would M.D.C. hide armor cost?

[kaid]

In my day, Vagabonds didn't start with any Mega-Damage gear, and people played them just like any other class.
You just have to duck, dodge, and otherwise not get shot for a little while, until you get better gear.
If you can't make it a couple adventures without getting shot, then somebody is probably doing something wrong in my estimation.

You have *far* better rolls to dodge than I do , but I catch your meaning.

There are a few odd ball OCC that don't automatically start with MDC armor listed in their starting gear. In the RUE I think one or two of the scholar occ don't have any armor listed at start even. Generally if you are playing a class like that you are going to tend to be a bit non combat initially anyway and in general basic MDC protection is not that expensive especially with the new MDC NG clothing lines or if you are in the dino swamps a friendly local eco wizard can likely at least make some basic hodge podge dino skin armor for a reasonable price.

Double checked and the Ultimate Edition gives all the Scholarly classes Light M.D.C. Armor in the starting gear. As for expensive, the NG Streetwolf stuff is nice, but it only provides body protection and legs at most (hands and arms aren't mentioned though I bet someone has house ruled them). A single called shot from an enemy bandit or sniper team and poof, no more limb and possible bleed out.

The Dinosaur Swamp armor had me intrigued, but I haven't seen a crafting system outside of the Techno-Wizard write-up. About how much would M.D.C. hide armor cost?

I will have to check tonight but I am pretty sure my first printing RUE at least one of the scientist/rogue scholar ones did not start with MDC armor. Probably fixed in errata later though.


There have been some mentions of the hodge podge armor and price for it in a few areas but none really give a good crafting write up on how they are made. Eco wizards given what they do should at very least be able to prepare and craft a non magical and upgradable to magical MDC armor if provided the materials. If you can kill the dino other than the time to prepare/craft its not like the armor would require anything that is not reasonably plentiful in the dinosaur swamps and one dino probably is enough to craft armor for an entire tribe so it can't be that expensive.

[ShadowLogan]

As for an oversight, it was the Banker and Legacy Scout write-ups. Both of them mention travelling with adventurers or going on adventures and being hands-on. Which solution on your list do you use in particular? I was thinking about what the average gamemaster might do cause I was thinking of maybe playing one of these in the future (should I be able to find a game). Hiding in a vehicle might be a good idea though neither gets one either

Which ever works best for the story, probably GM provided if no one (PC-wise) wants to share their armor. This way the armor can come from NPCs (if any), ogranization they represent (if they do) or hired them (employer provided), or some other explanation left to GM fiat since I would assume the player character doesn't have sufficient funds.

[kaid]

Between the new NG cloth armor/hodge podge dino skin type makeshift armor and things like plastic man type armor if a player wants armor they can probably afford it out of their initial starting cash for at least some minor levels of protection. Also note that the cloth armor from the NG first appeared in the dinoswamp books so clearly they are marketing too and selling to people in those areas.

[Killer Cyborg]

In my day, Vagabonds didn't start with any Mega-Damage gear, and people played them just like any other class.
You just have to duck, dodge, and otherwise not get shot for a little while, until you get better gear.
If you can't make it a couple adventures without getting shot, then somebody is probably doing something wrong in my estimation.

You have *far* better rolls to dodge than I do , but I catch your meaning.

It was easier before the -10 rule, of course, but a lot of it comes down to stuff that happens before initiative is rolled.
If you're setting up an ambush, make sure that there's plenty of cover for you, and not much cover for the enemy.
If you're afraid of getting ambushed, make sure that you take the route that provides more cover.
Have forward scouts. Use binoculars and other sensors to try to detect the enemy (not to mention magic and psionics).
If you DO find yourself facing off with bad guys, and you're caught out in the open, try to negotiate, maybe even surrender.
(Although if you have a mage, psychic, or other powerful character with the right powers, you're never really out in the open for long, because cover and concealment can be created.)

If you have one of those GMs who's style is "You've been walking along in a featureless plane for an hour with nothing in sight. Roll for initiative, there are a dozen CS Soldiers standing a dozen feet from you..." then none of that will matter.
But I consider that a pretty bad GM.

In our first year of Rifts, we realized that the best way to survive was for the players to look for every opportunity that they could to not get shot, and for the GM to give them that opportunity whenever reasonable.
Otherwise, people died like flies, whether they had MDC armor or not.

[Bill]

Canonically, mega-damage weapons and armor are supposed to be uncommon on Rifts earth (RUE, p357). It's easy to lose sight of that with the emphasis placed on mega-damage equipment in every supplement and when nearly every class includes mega-damage weapons and armor in their starting equipment lists.

[Killer Cyborg]

Canonically, mega-damage weapons and armor are supposed to be uncommon on Rifts earth (RUE, p357). It's easy to lose sight of that with the emphasis placed on mega-damage equipment in every supplement and when nearly every class includes mega-damage weapons and armor in their starting equipment lists.

Word.

[glitterboy2098]

it is worth mentioning that Rifts earth Earth is not exactly the "MDC Deathworld" so many players seem to assume, with a giant slavering monster behind every tree. Nor would the common MDC predators be said slavering monsters. most are just really tough and strong animals, and if a person is careful not to provoke them, would have little interest in humans.

if a game was going ot be centered mostly on city based adventuring, where MD weapons would be less common, or if the party had a large number of combat types to handle the fighting, i'd not worry about it. especially since the group would inevitably salvage or buy some armor for the charcter in the course of play.

if the game was going to have a higher level of MDC combat relative to the party's capabilities, or if i otherwise felt it needed for narrative reasons, i'd probably just give the character some low end armor for free. the Homespun armor found in WB19:australia is something i consider widespread around the world (being basically "armor made from junk/salvage/found materials" madmax style) and would be my Go-to choice, though if the narrative requires more professional looking or less obvious armor i'd probably use the Triax or NG armored clothing options instead.

[kaid]

Canonically, mega-damage weapons and armor are supposed to be uncommon on Rifts earth (RUE, p357). It's easy to lose sight of that with the emphasis placed on mega-damage equipment in every supplement and when nearly every class includes mega-damage weapons and armor in their starting equipment lists.

Although once they let dinosaur hide hodge armor be a thing a while back any rarity of at least basic armor does not make a ton of sense. Sure maybe only your crazy super hero of your tribe can kill a dino but once he manages that and if you can skin it and prepare the hide which apparently is possible then even a single big dino probably has enough hide for 50-60 people and left overs to make tents or other items. If you can make MDC armor out of the hides of creatures that are pretty common over a big chunk of the country then at least basic MDC protection simply can't be as rare as it was originally described as.

[Killer Cyborg]

Canonically, mega-damage weapons and armor are supposed to be uncommon on Rifts earth (RUE, p357). It's easy to lose sight of that with the emphasis placed on mega-damage equipment in every supplement and when nearly every class includes mega-damage weapons and armor in their starting equipment lists.

Although once they let dinosaur hide hodge armor be a thing a while back any rarity of at least basic armor does not make a ton of sense. Sure maybe only your crazy super hero of your tribe can kill a dino but once he manages that and if you can skin it and prepare the hide which apparently is possible then even a single big dino probably has enough hide for 50-60 people and left overs to make tents or other items. If you can make MDC armor out of the hides of creatures that are pretty common over a big chunk of the country then at least basic MDC protection simply can't be as rare as it was originally described as.

Agreed.
There is a lot of stuff in Rifts that doesn't very well support a lot of the basic premises of the setting.
Which is unfortunate.

In this case, a large part of the problem is general power creep within the setting leading to even more power creep.
Back when a T-Rex only had 10-40 MDC total, mega-damage hide armor made from a T-Rex would probably only have like 1-4 MDC at most.
But then New West happened, and even before that, CB1 screwed a lot of the previous balance up.

[kaid]

Although even a 1-4 MDC body armor would still have been pretty amazing but yes once they added the concept of hodge podge non magical stuff made from MDC hides any thought of keeping MDC uncommon shot out the window. In an area that has literal herds of MDC giants if you can manage to even kill one of those things but that one thing is over 100 feet long and about as big as an ambulatory office building you can get an awful lot of skin from that one kill. I have to say though even when rifts was brand new I never played a game that was not pretty MDC heavy I guess we were to used to robotech at the time and kinda played it more like the invid invasion type setting than any kind of mad max like setting.

[Alrik Vas]

I just drop really big rocks on people in hide armor. It's like squashing a bug.

[Serus Angel]

it is worth mentioning that Rifts earth Earth is not exactly the "MDC Deathworld" so many players seem to assume, with a giant slavering monster behind every tree. Nor would the common MDC predators be said slavering monsters. most are just really tough and strong animals, and if a person is careful not to provoke them, would have little interest in humans.

I think its lines like the one in Northern Gun that mentions how the wilderness is still the wilderness and that there are monsters lurking through the forests. It even mentions that most small villages and towns don't last more than 1-3 years (Can't remember the exact number) before disappearing entirely because Rifts Earth isn't safe in the slightest. Taking that to the logical conclusion, it implies that there is a major degree of danger just existing beyond the confines of a city. That being said, games can be adjusted as you mentioned to the player characters at hand.

I guess part of the issue is that I'm never sure when I hear of a game starting up of what to expect due to the variety or vagaries (or both) within the setting. That being said, I guess I could go for an update to Dinosaur Swamp (and a third Neenok Expedition) to see just how the writers might have evolved or changed (if at all) their views on the importance and prevalence of M.D.C. Armor in the setting especially as an adventuring O.C.C.

[flatline]

CB1 screwed a lot of the previous balance up.

I never had issues with CB1. It was SB1 and the introduction of the Wilk's pulse laser rifle that totally screwed up the established balance in my groups.

The powerful stuff in CB1 was mostly GM material. Most of the player races were still SDC and stat-wise very similar to humans.

Then, of course, CB2 came out, but the initial balance was already totally lost by that point and we no longer cared.

[glitterboy2098]

it is worth mentioning that Rifts earth Earth is not exactly the "MDC Deathworld" so many players seem to assume, with a giant slavering monster behind every tree. Nor would the common MDC predators be said slavering monsters. most are just really tough and strong animals, and if a person is careful not to provoke them, would have little interest in humans.

I think its lines like the one in Northern Gun that mentions how the wilderness is still the wilderness and that there are monsters lurking through the forests. It even mentions that most small villages and towns don't last more than 1-3 years (Can't remember the exact number) before disappearing entirely because Rifts Earth isn't safe in the slightest. Taking that to the logical conclusion, it implies that there is a major degree of danger just existing beyond the confines of a city. That being said, games can be adjusted as you mentioned to the player characters at hand.

keep in mind that you can say a lot of the same stuff about Central Africa or the Amazon IRL, but can go years without ever seeing a predator in such places, animal or otherwise. for that matter the same was said about the american west when it was being settled (dangerous animals, roving bands of indians, bandits, etc), yet most homesteaders never even saw those.

and the survival rate of communities has little to do with animal attacks. away from the cities your lacking medical car, reliable supplies, etc. which means that famine, starvation, illness, injury, or other mundane in the settlement of the american west, most homesteaders only lasted 1-3 years before they packed up and left or died out.. because farming failed, or they got sick, or they hurt themselves and couldn't work.. etc. living on the frontier was something generally done on a very limited margin, and it didn't take much to cause a farmstead or even a young town to fail completely.

[Killer Cyborg]

CB1 screwed a lot of the previous balance up.

I never had issues with CB1.

I am absolutely amazed.

It was SB1 and the introduction of the Wilk's pulse laser rifle that totally screwed up the established balance in my groups.

Yeah, that one certainly messed with things a bit. I remember being shocked at how the laser pulse rifle was more powerful than the big railguns that required a crew or power armor to use!
Then again, it wasn't much worse than being able to unload a JA-11 for 3d6x10 MD, and due to Impervious to Energy and other factors, railguns still had plenty of use.

The powerful stuff in CB1 was mostly GM material. Most of the player races were still SDC and stat-wise very similar to humans.

Almost all races in CB1 were potentially player races.
But that's not exactly what I was talking about. I was talking about the ability of trained humans and super-humans to be mega-damage power-houses.
Wrist strengthening exercises give a normal human 4 MDC.
Kick Practice lets you kick with the force of 2 LAW rockets (at the time).
Stretching Power gave you enough MDC that you didn't need armor (for the most part)
And so forth.

Moreover, without any other handy Monster Book, GMs started using those creatures rather than rolling up their own, which resulted in a swift swerve away from the previous standard of supernatural critters having vulnerabilities to certain SDC attacks.

Perhaps worst of all, CB1 is where the idea was introduced that "Supernatural PS" inflicted drastically higher damage than normal PS, and that Juicer, Bionic, and Robotic PS echoed that ability to a lesser extent.

Then, of course, CB2 came out, but the initial balance was already totally lost by that point and we no longer cared.

I can agree to that part.

[Killer Cyborg]

it is worth mentioning that Rifts earth Earth is not exactly the "MDC Deathworld" so many players seem to assume, with a giant slavering monster behind every tree. Nor would the common MDC predators be said slavering monsters. most are just really tough and strong animals, and if a person is careful not to provoke them, would have little interest in humans.

I think its lines like the one in Northern Gun that mentions how the wilderness is still the wilderness and that there are monsters lurking through the forests. It even mentions that most small villages and towns don't last more than 1-3 years (Can't remember the exact number) before disappearing entirely because Rifts Earth isn't safe in the slightest. Taking that to the logical conclusion, it implies that there is a major degree of danger just existing beyond the confines of a city. That being said, games can be adjusted as you mentioned to the player characters at hand.

keep in mind that you can say a lot of the same stuff about Central Africa or the Amazon IRL, but can go years without ever seeing a predator in such places, animal or otherwise. for that matter the same was said about the american west when it was being settled (dangerous animals, roving bands of indians, bandits, etc), yet most homesteaders never even saw those.

and the survival rate of communities has little to do with animal attacks. away from the cities your lacking medical car, reliable supplies, etc. which means that famine, starvation, illness, injury, or other mundane in the settlement of the american west, most homesteaders only lasted 1-3 years before they packed up and left or died out.. because farming failed, or they got sick, or they hurt themselves and couldn't work.. etc. living on the frontier was something generally done on a very limited margin, and it didn't take much to cause a farmstead or even a young town to fail completely.

Right.

The Rifts Adventure Guide and/or RUE has a section saying essentially the same thing, essentially that "here there be dragons" doesn't mean that you're going to meet a dragon just because you go through that territory.
They're not behind every tree and bush.

[glitterboy2098]

plus aside from the rare intelligent monster, most of the MDC critters are basically just really tough animals. animals tend to be fairly conservative in behavior, so the "unstoppable rampaging monster killing everything in sight" trope rarely plays out. generally when animals attack people, it's because conditions have made things so hard for the animal that they have to go outside their normal behavior to survive, or because humans have provoked it in some way (like getting too close to its children), or the like. especially the big ones like a T-rex.. even ignoring the "do MDC critters need to eat MDC critters to survive" aspect, a human (or a goat or a cow, etc) wouldn't be much nutrition to an animal that size, and the energy expended to catch us would probably be less than the energy they'd get eating us. even before figuring in the fact that some humans have rock hard shells and can seriously injure a Rex..

these aren't theme park monsters.

now obviously the intelligent ones would be more likely to cause issues (curiosity and boredom if nothing else), but those are supposed to be pretty darn rare.

pretty good, if less than scholarly, articles on why animals do and do not attack people. (handy for GM's so you can have the animal attacks actually make some sense.. players figuring out what is going on and acting intelligently to placate the animal/avoid a confrontation would actually end up with more XP than ones that just kill it.
https://www.quora.com/Wildlife-Why-do-a ... n-the-wild
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ani ... 80b245c858

[flatline]

The most dangerous thing about Rifts Earth is the folks who have MD equipment.

The supernatural baddies are a distant second. And that includes vampires.

[flatline]

Almost all races in CB1 were potentially player races.
But that's not exactly what I was talking about. I was talking about the ability of trained humans and super-humans to be mega-damage power-houses.
Wrist strengthening exercises give a normal human 4 MDC.
Kick Practice lets you kick with the force of 2 LAW rockets (at the time).
Stretching Power gave you enough MDC that you didn't need armor (for the most part)
And so forth.

I don't disagree with any of that, but those are all conversions from other games. We already expected supers to be, well, super. We didn't consider CB1 to be power creep because conversions are always exceptions that have to be approved by the GM and can be as common or rare as the GM pleases.

We raised our eyebrows a bit at allowing adventurer OCCs to have more super powers than HUr allowed for regular heros, but we ignored it until we started seeing all the other creep in later books...then we started allowing it.

Moreover, without any other handy Monster Book, GMs started using those creatures rather than rolling up their own, which resulted in a swift swerve away from the previous standard of supernatural critters having vulnerabilities to certain SDC attacks.

We still relied on the random monster table in RMB. They had more flavor than the CB1 monsters and there was no danger of a player having read about them and knowing all about them even if the PC didn't know what they were.

Perhaps worst of all, CB1 is where the idea was introduced that "Supernatural PS" inflicted drastically higher damage than normal PS, and that Juicer, Bionic, and Robotic PS echoed that ability to a lesser extent.

There was this. We didn't see SN strength as power creep in CB1, but rather an explanation of how the authors assigned damage to magic creatures we were already familiar with (like RMB dragon hatchlings) and those races already had built-in limitations so we didn't worry about it. We didn't start worrying about it until Atlantis gave us the Undead Slayer...and then every book after that seemed to provide PC races or classes with SN strength. That was definitely power creep.

But as I said before, the first time I got that sinking feeling in my stomach caused by setting-destoying-power-creep was when I got to the the Wilk's pulse laser rifle in SB1...Even after all these years, I feel like I'm cheating somehow if I start with a weapon that can do more than 6d6MD in a single attack unless I'm playing a "heavy" like a borg or PA pilot or something similar. The idea that anyone who can use a rifle can do more damage than that just rubs me the wrong way.

The second time I got that sinking feeling in my stomach was when FoM came out. They wasted so much space on spells that do damage rather than spells that do new useful and novel things or solve difficult problems (space magic did a much better job with this).

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Almost all races in CB1 were potentially player races.
But that's not exactly what I was talking about. I was talking about the ability of trained humans and super-humans to be mega-damage power-houses.
Wrist strengthening exercises give a normal human 4 MDC.
Kick Practice lets you kick with the force of 2 LAW rockets (at the time).
Stretching Power gave you enough MDC that you didn't need armor (for the most part)
And so forth.

I don't disagree with any of that, but those are all conversions from other games. We already expected supers to be, well, super.

I expected super heroes to be like anybody else, only with the powers that they already had.
Invulnerability, sure. Makes sense that'd still be powerful in a Mega-Damage setting.
Stretching? Not so much.
More so with N&S martial arts abilities.

A lot of the time, when making characters, I insisted on ignoring the conversion rules and just porting stuff over as-is.
Just because I wanted my character to know Tae Kwon Do didn't mean that I wanted his kick to be as powerful as a laser rifle.
Just because I wanted a character with extraordinary Endurance or Strength didn't mean that I wanted a Mega-Damage powerhouse.

We didn't consider CB1 to be power creep because conversions are always exceptions that have to be approved by the GM and can be as common or rare as the GM pleases.

That's how it creeps in.

We raised our eyebrows a bit at allowing adventurer OCCs to have more super powers than HUr allowed for regular heros, but we ignored it until we started seeing all the other creep in later books...then we started allowing it.

Yeah, vagabonds could get crazy with super powers.

Moreover, without any other handy Monster Book, GMs started using those creatures rather than rolling up their own, which resulted in a swift swerve away from the previous standard of supernatural critters having vulnerabilities to certain SDC attacks.

We still relied on the random monster table in RMB. They had more flavor than the CB1 monsters and there was no danger of a player having read about them and knowing all about them even if the PC didn't know what they were.

GMs could still control stuff to a degree, but the CB1 stuff became the new standard.

Perhaps worst of all, CB1 is where the idea was introduced that "Supernatural PS" inflicted drastically higher damage than normal PS, and that Juicer, Bionic, and Robotic PS echoed that ability to a lesser extent.

There was this. We didn't see SN strength as power creep in CB1, but rather an explanation of how the authors assigned damage to magic creatures we were already familiar with (like RMB dragon hatchlings) and those races already had built-in limitations so we didn't worry about it. We didn't start worrying about it until Atlantis gave us the Undead Slayer...and then every book after that seemed to provide PC races or classes with SN strength. That was definitely power creep.

We didn't see a problem with it either, at the time.
It was only in hindsight that I traced things back to CB1. I really like(d) the book, but a lot of bad stuff got a foothold there.

But as I said before, the first time I got that sinking feeling in my stomach caused by setting-destoying-power-creep was when I got to the the Wilk's pulse laser rifle in SB1...Even after all these years, I feel like I'm cheating somehow if I start with a weapon that can do more than 6d6MD in a single attack unless I'm playing a "heavy" like a borg or PA pilot or something similar. The idea that anyone who can use a rifle can do more damage than that just rubs me the wrong way.

The Wilk's Pulse Rifle was just a logical extension of the stuff in the RMB, a hybrid of the C-14's 3d6 laser and the L-20's Pulse ability to fire 3 shots in one attack for x3 damage.
Perfectly logical... but yeah, if I had to reboot Rifts from scratch, I'd probably come up with a way to nix it.
Something like just capping standard laser damage at 2d6 MD, with a specific note that more powerful lasers require just enough time to recharge the capacity that they're restricted to being single shot weapons.

The second time I got that sinking feeling in my stomach was when FoM came out. They wasted so much space on spells that do damage rather than spells that do new useful and novel things or solve difficult problems (space magic did a much better job with this).
--flatline

Yeah, FoM was another hallmark. New West and Spirit West were others.
Pretty much every book has introduced new creep, but some books were more like Power Leap than Power Creep.

[kaid]

Just to make sure I was not imagining things I rechecked my RUE it was the elemental fusionist that has no listed starting armor. I guess they figure they would by default get one of the shielding spells and use that for their armor instead.

[kaid]

Almost all races in CB1 were potentially player races.
But that's not exactly what I was talking about. I was talking about the ability of trained humans and super-humans to be mega-damage power-houses.
Wrist strengthening exercises give a normal human 4 MDC.
Kick Practice lets you kick with the force of 2 LAW rockets (at the time).
Stretching Power gave you enough MDC that you didn't need armor (for the most part)
And so forth.

I don't disagree with any of that, but those are all conversions from other games. We already expected supers to be, well, super.

I expected super heroes to be like anybody else, only with the powers that they already had.
Invulnerability, sure. Makes sense that'd still be powerful in a Mega-Damage setting.
Stretching? Not so much.
More so with N&S martial arts abilities.

A lot of the time, when making characters, I insisted on ignoring the conversion rules and just porting stuff over as-is.
Just because I wanted my character to know Tae Kwon Do didn't mean that I wanted his kick to be as powerful as a laser rifle.
Just because I wanted a character with extraordinary Endurance or Strength didn't mean that I wanted a Mega-Damage powerhouse.

We didn't consider CB1 to be power creep because conversions are always exceptions that have to be approved by the GM and can be as common or rare as the GM pleases.

That's how it creeps in.

We raised our eyebrows a bit at allowing adventurer OCCs to have more super powers than HUr allowed for regular heros, but we ignored it until we started seeing all the other creep in later books...then we started allowing it.

Yeah, vagabonds could get crazy with super powers.

Moreover, without any other handy Monster Book, GMs started using those creatures rather than rolling up their own, which resulted in a swift swerve away from the previous standard of supernatural critters having vulnerabilities to certain SDC attacks.

We still relied on the random monster table in RMB. They had more flavor than the CB1 monsters and there was no danger of a player having read about them and knowing all about them even if the PC didn't know what they were.

GMs could still control stuff to a degree, but the CB1 stuff became the new standard.

Perhaps worst of all, CB1 is where the idea was introduced that "Supernatural PS" inflicted drastically higher damage than normal PS, and that Juicer, Bionic, and Robotic PS echoed that ability to a lesser extent.

There was this. We didn't see SN strength as power creep in CB1, but rather an explanation of how the authors assigned damage to magic creatures we were already familiar with (like RMB dragon hatchlings) and those races already had built-in limitations so we didn't worry about it. We didn't start worrying about it until Atlantis gave us the Undead Slayer...and then every book after that seemed to provide PC races or classes with SN strength. That was definitely power creep.

We didn't see a problem with it either, at the time.
It was only in hindsight that I traced things back to CB1. I really like(d) the book, but a lot of bad stuff got a foothold there.

But as I said before, the first time I got that sinking feeling in my stomach caused by setting-destoying-power-creep was when I got to the the Wilk's pulse laser rifle in SB1...Even after all these years, I feel like I'm cheating somehow if I start with a weapon that can do more than 6d6MD in a single attack unless I'm playing a "heavy" like a borg or PA pilot or something similar. The idea that anyone who can use a rifle can do more damage than that just rubs me the wrong way.

The Wilk's Pulse Rifle was just a logical extension of the stuff in the RMB, a hybrid of the C-14's 3d6 laser and the L-20's Pulse ability to fire 3 shots in one attack for x3 damage.
Perfectly logical... but yeah, if I had to reboot Rifts from scratch, I'd probably come up with a way to nix it.
Something like just capping standard laser damage at 2d6 MD, with a specific note that more powerful lasers require just enough time to recharge the capacity that they're restricted to being single shot weapons.

The second time I got that sinking feeling in my stomach was when FoM came out. They wasted so much space on spells that do damage rather than spells that do new useful and novel things or solve difficult problems (space magic did a much better job with this).
--flatline

Yeah, FoM was another hallmark. New West and Spirit West were others.
Pretty much every book has introduced new creep, but some books were more like Power Leap than Power Creep.

If I had to go back in time and change something I would have just begged them to have MDC weapons simply not capable of doing bursts/pulses. Single shot high intensity high damage. Even for rail guns it makes more sense doing what the glitter boy does accelerating a single flechette round than being rapid fire. It would bring a lot of sanity to the damage scale where pretty much you would only see 1d4x10 or 1d6x10 on dedicated heavy/vehicular grade weaponry.

[Serus Angel]

I don't disagree with any of that, but those are all conversions from other games. We already expected supers to be, well, super. We didn't consider CB1 to be power creep because conversions are always exceptions that have to be approved by the GM and can be as common or rare as the GM pleases.

We raised our eyebrows a bit at allowing adventurer OCCs to have more super powers than HUr allowed for regular heros, but we ignored it until we started seeing all the other creep in later books...then we started allowing it.


--flatline

Yeah, it was weird seeing those, but I thought that changed in CB1: Revised and now the powers are linked to the original class or GM fiat rather than using a new list of starting powers.

[glitterboy2098]

Just to make sure I was not imagining things I rechecked my RUE it was the elemental fusionist that has no listed starting armor. I guess they figure they would by default get one of the shielding spells and use that for their armor instead.

they have spells for their type that gives them a form of MDC protection. however it is worth noting that these have some drawbacks. for example, the earth/air fusionist has 'earth skin', which toughens up the caster to be MDC. but it explicitly says it makes the skin armored.. which means it won't protect clothing (which means their outfit will be shredded, burnt, blasted apart, etc each time they take damage)
plus since it just makes them MDC tough rather than create some sort of magic armor the way armor of ithan and other spells do, it means that the notes in the GMG about how taking damage to your body, even if not fatal, involves pain and the like. which depending on the GM, might mean making save vs pains on every hit to avoid being distracted by it. etc.

the fire/water fusionist doesn't get automatic spells from their list, but do have several options for protection.. Flamecoat creates a suit of armor made out of Fire to protect them.. which burns away any clothing or items they have on their person. the protective field spell is less destructive, but has a 6th sense like condition where it triggers the moment danger is perceived.. whether the mage wants to spend the PPE or not. which also suggests that if the battle does not end before the duration is up, it'll keep casting itself automatically.

in all three cases the amount of protection is actually fairly low at typical starting levels. at lv1 it's less than even most light body armor in fact.
which means that you have to be creative in the use of the other spells and the fusionist's skill use to try and avboid getting hit in the first place, even with the protective spells active.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I had to go back in time and change something I would have just begged them to have MDC weapons simply not capable of doing bursts/pulses. Single shot high intensity high damage. Even for rail guns it makes more sense doing what the glitter boy does accelerating a single flechette round than being rapid fire. It would bring a lot of sanity to the damage scale where pretty much you would only see 1d4x10 or 1d6x10 on dedicated heavy/vehicular grade weaponry.

I'd totally allow MD weapons to do bursts/pulses, but I'd have kept it a bit more under control.
For that matter, I'd have lowered the general power levels, and I'd have differentiated more between the various energy weapon types.

[kaid]

Just to make sure I was not imagining things I rechecked my RUE it was the elemental fusionist that has no listed starting armor. I guess they figure they would by default get one of the shielding spells and use that for their armor instead.

they have spells for their type that gives them a form of MDC protection. however it is worth noting that these have some drawbacks. for example, the earth/air fusionist has 'earth skin', which toughens up the caster to be MDC. but it explicitly says it makes the skin armored.. which means it won't protect clothing (which means their outfit will be shredded, burnt, blasted apart, etc each time they take damage)
plus since it just makes them MDC tough rather than create some sort of magic armor the way armor of ithan and other spells do, it means that the notes in the GMG about how taking damage to your body, even if not fatal, involves pain and the like. which depending on the GM, might mean making save vs pains on every hit to avoid being distracted by it. etc.

the fire/water fusionist doesn't get automatic spells from their list, but do have several options for protection.. Flamecoat creates a suit of armor made out of Fire to protect them.. which burns away any clothing or items they have on their person. the protective field spell is less destructive, but has a 6th sense like condition where it triggers the moment danger is perceived.. whether the mage wants to spend the PPE or not. which also suggests that if the battle does not end before the duration is up, it'll keep casting itself automatically.

in all three cases the amount of protection is actually fairly low at typical starting levels. at lv1 it's less than even most light body armor in fact.
which means that you have to be creative in the use of the other spells and the fusionist's skill use to try and avboid getting hit in the first place, even with the protective spells active.

Still given how good the shielding options are for fusionists it would be an odd fusionist who did not at least pick one of the options they have available for their elemental set defensive wise. But still an example of some people don't start with MDC armor by default even in the RUE. Honestly though in my play MDC armor while not uncommon also tends to not last that long. Armor gets cycled through pretty rapidly via attrition and some people start with some really fancy body armor but eventually its cheaper to replace it than it is to repair it and they wind up switching to whatever they can acquire.

[Serus Angel]

Still given how good the shielding options are for fusionists it would be an odd fusionist who did not at least pick one of the options they have available for their elemental set defensive wise. But still an example of some people don't start with MDC armor by default even in the RUE. Honestly though in my play MDC armor while not uncommon also tends to not last that long. Armor gets cycled through pretty rapidly via attrition and some people start with some really fancy body armor but eventually its cheaper to replace it than it is to repair it and they wind up switching to whatever they can acquire.

That being said, what about Character Classes that lack even shield options? I know the Legacy Scout does not have any supernatural powers to compensate unlike the Elemental Fusionist. The Banker, I figure, can get a loan at least to acquire one of the basic suits should they roll terribly on starting credits (which has been my luck ).

I don't think there are any options in the Core that lack at least some means of getting M.D.C. unless I am mistaken.

[Blue_Lion]

If I had to go back in time and change something I would have just begged them to have MDC weapons simply not capable of doing bursts/pulses. Single shot high intensity high damage. Even for rail guns it makes more sense doing what the glitter boy does accelerating a single flechette round than being rapid fire. It would bring a lot of sanity to the damage scale where pretty much you would only see 1d4x10 or 1d6x10 on dedicated heavy/vehicular grade weaponry.

I'd totally allow MD weapons to do bursts/pulses, but I'd have kept it a bit more under control.
For that matter, I'd have lowered the general power levels, and I'd have differentiated more between the various energy weapon types.

I agree, I created standard damage by weapon type some may have a light and heavy version and all weapons of that type do a set base damage. This not only limits power creep but scales the weapons. IE ion better than laser by base damage. Some types of exotic weapons I see as having secondary affects such as sonic weapons causing temporary hearing loss or plasma weapons starting fires.

[kaid]

Still given how good the shielding options are for fusionists it would be an odd fusionist who did not at least pick one of the options they have available for their elemental set defensive wise. But still an example of some people don't start with MDC armor by default even in the RUE. Honestly though in my play MDC armor while not uncommon also tends to not last that long. Armor gets cycled through pretty rapidly via attrition and some people start with some really fancy body armor but eventually its cheaper to replace it than it is to repair it and they wind up switching to whatever they can acquire.

That being said, what about Character Classes that lack even shield options? I know the Legacy Scout does not have any supernatural powers to compensate unlike the Elemental Fusionist. The Banker, I figure, can get a loan at least to acquire one of the basic suits should they roll terribly on starting credits (which has been my luck ).

I don't think there are any options in the Core that lack at least some means of getting M.D.C. unless I am mistaken.

In double checking it looks like Dino swamp predates rue by about a year old RMB occ had many more lacking mdc standard equipment.

[Serus Angel]

In double checking it looks like Dino swamp predates rue by about a year old RMB occ had many more lacking mdc standard equipment.

Gotcha, that makes more sense then

[kaid]

In double checking it looks like Dino swamp predates rue by about a year old RMB occ had many more lacking mdc standard equipment.

Gotcha, that makes more sense then

Yup RUE did some minor tweaking upgrades to all the classes so every one has at least a bit of MDC protection. Things like burster flame adding in an MDC damage shield as well. It looks like the RUE wilderness scout is based off and upgraded from the varients seen in the dino swamp book. So probably a decent template to use for starting gear for the wilderness scout varients in dino swamp book.

The other option is the barbarians list hodge podge minor MDC armor they make and sell for 12-20k credits or trade. The starting cash for most of the wilderness scouts varients there is more than enough to buy that or some of the basic armored clothing/jumpsuits from the NG2 book.

[Blue_Lion]

Although even a 1-4 MDC body armor would still have been pretty amazing but yes once they added the concept of hodge podge non magical stuff made from MDC hides any thought of keeping MDC uncommon shot out the window. In an area that has literal herds of MDC giants if you can manage to even kill one of those things but that one thing is over 100 feet long and about as big as an ambulatory office building you can get an awful lot of skin from that one kill. I have to say though even when rifts was brand new I never played a game that was not pretty MDC heavy I guess we were to used to robotech at the time and kinda played it more like the invid invasion type setting than any kind of mad max like setting.

I thought it was MDC technology that was rare. Natural MD material does not make the technology common.

[Serus Angel]

I thought it was MDC technology that was rare. Natural MD material does not make the technology common.

Maybe its more of a function of the game? The fact that the characters are often mercenaries or adventurers and that those kinds of people tend to have more M.D.C. gear than others? I know that the book does mention they are the primary market for a lot of the major companies. Perhaps, the books are just showing that bias of the Player Characters being exceptional and beyond the norm? Users of Magic are rare as well right?

[flatline]

Users of Magic are rare as well right?

Totally depends on where you are and who your GM is.

[Blue_Lion]

Users of Magic are rare as well right?

Totally depends on where you are and who your GM is.

Well by the way the book is written they are rare. only a small % are capable of learning magic in humans some races are different and some planes may be as well.

[parkhyun]

I've wondered about this topic pretty much ever since I first read RMB back in the 90s. My take on it is that this is where storytelling runs into book-selling. It's hard to sell your books (and keep your business alive) with no power creep and a setting in which most people are normal schmoes.

Let's say that all MD pistols do the same amount of damage - 2d6. Some are more reliable, some have a bigger magazine capacity, but all do 2d6 MD. Easy to remember, no chance of power creep. Same with rifles - they just do 3d6.

Now I've got a supplement to sell. Here it is, my book I want you the player to buy, and you need this book, because... look! Fifty new kinds of pistols and rifles, and they all do 2d6 or 3d6 MD! Eighty new kinds of armor, all with 45 to 85 MD!
Yes, most people in this setting are normal humans to whom your PCs are awesome and almighty, but here's 20 new O.C.C.s that are awesomer and all-mightier!

It's hard to maintain balance when you've got a business to support. As they say in business, if you ain't growing, you're dying. In the RPG business, if it ain't creeping, you're weeping.

[Blue_Lion]

I've wondered about this topic pretty much ever since I first read RMB back in the 90s. My take on it is that this is where storytelling runs into book-selling. It's hard to sell your books (and keep your business alive) with no power creep and a setting in which most people are normal schmoes.

Let's say that all MD pistols do the same amount of damage - 2d6. Some are more reliable, some have a bigger magazine capacity, but all do 2d6 MD. Easy to remember, no chance of power creep. Same with rifles - they just do 3d6.

Now I've got a supplement to sell. Here it is, my book I want you the player to buy, and you need this book, because... look! Fifty new kinds of pistols and rifles, and they all do 2d6 or 3d6 MD! Eighty new kinds of armor, all with 45 to 85 MD!
Yes, most people in this setting are normal humans to whom your PCs are awesome and almighty, but here's 20 new O.C.C.s that are awesomer and all-mightier!

It's hard to maintain balance when you've got a business to support. As they say in business, if you ain't growing, you're dying. In the RPG business, if it ain't creeping, you're weeping.

I know a few games where weapons do standard damage base on the type and it has been that way since the game came out. I have also bought books with no gear or classes in them it was all world information.
So while i do think gear books are great that is not the only selling point.
By that logic nothing boost sales like a new edition every few years something that rifts does not do. Gear does not need to be stronger to be cool it can have a really cool concept that sales it. You can be creative without power creep, intentional use of power creep to sale books is more a lack of creativity.

[parkhyun]

I know a few games where weapons do standard damage base on the type and it has been that way since the game came out. I have also bought books with no gear or classes in them it was all world information.
So while i do think gear books are great that is not the only selling point.
By that logic nothing boost sales like a new edition every few years something that rifts does not do. Gear does not need to be stronger to be cool it can have a really cool concept that sales it. You can be creative without power creep, intentional use of power creep to sale books is more a lack of creativity.

Absolutely! However, I think the Rifts "everything and the kitchen-sink, too" setting makes it particularly susceptible to this mechanic. If your game's advantage is its massive, all-in-one world, it's a lot harder to follow the D&D model of new edition-monster book-campaigns-new edition. I don't mean to imply that Palladium Books is following a cynical business model, merely that it's a business, and it needs to keep publishing. Its mainline product is so diverse that it's difficult to sell one-size-fits-all campaign/adventure books. Therefore, it sells lots of World Books, which are chock-full of O.C.C.s, and this creates the impression that everyone in the world is super-amazing adventure man.

I think one solution is to keep everything on a timeline - your PCs start at level one in the RMB setting. As time goes on, new and better gear is invented or produced, old O.C.C.s become new O.C.C.s, magic and psionics become more powerful and wide-spread, history unfolds. I'd also suggest that some O.C.C.s are literally limited to one person, the way that in the old Star Wars movies "the Jedi" were just Yoda and Obi-Wan.

[Blue_Lion]

I know a few games where weapons do standard damage base on the type and it has been that way since the game came out. I have also bought books with no gear or classes in them it was all world information.
So while i do think gear books are great that is not the only selling point.
By that logic nothing boost sales like a new edition every few years something that rifts does not do. Gear does not need to be stronger to be cool it can have a really cool concept that sales it. You can be creative without power creep, intentional use of power creep to sale books is more a lack of creativity.

Absolutely! However, I think the Rifts "everything and the kitchen-sink, too" setting makes it particularly susceptible to this mechanic. If your game's advantage is its massive, all-in-one world, it's a lot harder to follow the D&D model of new edition-monster book-campaigns-new edition. I don't mean to imply that Palladium Books is following a cynical business model, merely that it's a business, and it needs to keep publishing. Its mainline product is so diverse that it's difficult to sell one-size-fits-all campaign/adventure books. Therefore, it sells lots of World Books, which are chock-full of O.C.C.s, and this creates the impression that everyone in the world is super-amazing adventure man.

I think one solution is to keep everything on a timeline - your PCs start at level one in the RMB setting. As time goes on, new and better gear is invented or produced, old O.C.C.s become new O.C.C.s, magic and psionics become more powerful and wide-spread, history unfolds. I'd also suggest that some O.C.C.s are literally limited to one person, the way that in the old Star Wars movies "the Jedi" were just Yoda and Obi-Wan.

I disagree that they have an impression that every one is a super amazing adventure man. It does have every one can be unique but not all are not super-amazing.
I dislike the 3rd ed of choose a class every level and the prestige class is the biggest power creep there is, and a super munchkin tool.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've wondered about this topic pretty much ever since I first read RMB back in the 90s. My take on it is that this is where storytelling runs into book-selling. It's hard to sell your books (and keep your business alive) with no power creep and a setting in which most people are normal schmoes.

Let's say that all MD pistols do the same amount of damage - 2d6. Some are more reliable, some have a bigger magazine capacity, but all do 2d6 MD. Easy to remember, no chance of power creep. Same with rifles - they just do 3d6.

Now I've got a supplement to sell. Here it is, my book I want you the player to buy, and you need this book, because... look! Fifty new kinds of pistols and rifles, and they all do 2d6 or 3d6 MD! Eighty new kinds of armor, all with 45 to 85 MD!
Yes, most people in this setting are normal humans to whom your PCs are awesome and almighty, but here's 20 new O.C.C.s that are awesomer and all-mightier!

It's hard to maintain balance when you've got a business to support. As they say in business, if you ain't growing, you're dying. In the RPG business, if it ain't creeping, you're weeping.

Except that they really could put out new books with new material that isn't power creep.
With Rifts in particular, there's an entire world of damage levels between 1d4 SDC and 3d6 MD that could be explored, along with filling in all the gaps between a 50 SDC bulletproof vest and that 85 MDC armor.

And there are other factors other than damage:
Range, ammunition capacity, reloading ease, weapon durability, accuracy, appearance, manufacturer, and so forth. Just look at the Compendium of Modern weapons; it's chock full of guns, and within each type (pistols, rifles, etc.) there isn't a hell of a lot of variance in damage output, but they still managed to get plenty of guns.
Heck, look at real-world guns, where the damage output has had a pretty steady cap for decades, but darned if there aren't new models of guns coming out every year.
Sure, there's been some power creep in pistols since 1911, but not so much that nobody's interested in buying a M1911 anymore, and not so much that .45 ACP rounds aren't still one of the most common ammunition types.
And there certainly hasn't been so much power creep that there aren't still--after over a century--plenty people willing to argue that the M1911 is the best handgun ever made.

Gamers are the same way. We have emotions. We have priorities other than sheer damage output. We have preferences, and we like to argue about those preferences especially when the differences aren't a very big deal.
You give gamers one laser pistol that does 1d6 MD with a +2 bonus to strike, and another laser pistol that does 1d6+2 MD with no bonus to strike, make them cosmetically different, and people are going to argue back and forth over which is better, they're going to disagree, and both guns are going to see a lot of in-game sales.
Toss in another gun that does 1d6 MD, has no bonus to strike, but has a better ammo capacity.
Toss in another gun that does 1d6 MD, has no bonus to strike, has the same ammo capacity as the first two, but that's a lot more concealable.
And so on, and so forth.

Different gamers are going to have different favorite weapons. Different characters of the same gamer will have different favorite weapons.
The same gamer playing the same character may have a different favorite weapon depending on what he/she/it needs to accomplish.

Increases in basic setting power don't mean as much as people would like to think, when it comes to diversity or gamer interest.

[taalismn]

Play as is described....As others have noted, the character's going to either have to dip into their savings/possessions to equip themselves, seek paying work, or use their wits (and available cover) to survive until they can acquire personal armor.
Or beg a colleague to loan them money or a suit. This can be an early indicator of how the 'squishie' is regarded by the rest of his party-mates, and give the PC incentive to work hard(er) to ingratiate themselves with their traveling companions...or assassinate them and take their stuff.

[kaid]

Users of Magic are rare as well right?

Totally depends on where you are and who your GM is.

Well by the way the book is written they are rare. only a small % are capable of learning magic in humans some races are different and some planes may be as well.

In some cities we have seen described as a pretty solid mix it looks like magic users were about 20ish percent of the population or at least those with enough juice to count as one of the magic using OCC there may be some with some tiny amounts of ability but not enough to be useful.

That said adventurers tend to come from the odd balls anyway so in general an adventurer is far more likely to be one of the edge cases and not one of the majority otherwise they would be a non combatant civillian who likely never leaves town/or their farm.