Magebane

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

You can fairly easily wear a hardened leather breastplate, shoulders (pauldrons/spaulders), vambraces/elbow cops, and greaves/knee cops with chain, however.

Also - forget chain maile leggings. They were a thing, but they were -incredily- hard to make (becayuse you have to size them just right or the rings bind up on you and you cant move) and were cripplingly heavy to wear suspended from a chause belt. Chain leg coverage was usually just the hauberken being extended down the upper thigh, often with a split for riding, or as a separate knee-length skirt that was belted on, in the transitional years between early breastplates and the later more articulated styles that included faulds at the bottom and tassets hanging from them.

[Zer0 Kay]

You can fairly easily wear a hardened leather breastplate, shoulders (pauldrons/spaulders), vambraces/elbow cops, and greaves/knee cops with chain, however.

Also - forget chain maile leggings. They were a thing, but they were -incredily- hard to make (becayuse you have to size them just right or the rings bind up on you and you cant move) and were cripplingly heavy to wear suspended from a chause belt. Chain leg coverage was usually just the hauberken being extended down the upper thigh, often with a split for riding, or as a separate knee-length skirt that was belted on, in the transitional years between early breastplates and the later more articulated styles that included faulds at the bottom and tassets hanging from them.

Uh, yeah that is like the leather equivalent of plate mail. You still wouldn't get all of chain mail plus all of leathers stats.

[Zer0 Kay]

late nails of medieval times included padding as far as being built as a part of it. Original suits of plate did require the wearer to wear chain upon which were strapped pieces of plate throughout the period a cap had to be worn under the great helms. The padding was mostly for fitting as it was poor protection agains bludgeoning attacks, which is why the weapons of choice were hammers, maces, morning stars and greatswords.

Id been occasionally perusing to see if there were any interesting topics and hadn't posted in quiet some time..

i actually went through the process of finding my account info and resetting my password to address this. As a history major, re-enactor and larper, there is a lot of misunderstanding here (though i think it got cleared up later, i want to go over it again).

Historically, by the time we got back to "real" plate armor (the Romans had plate armor for centuries, remember) after the Dark Ages, chain maile was NOT worn under it. Very -early- post dark ages "plate and maile" armor was largely just a chain maile hauberken (shirt with arms down to usually mid-forearm or even all the way to the wrists, and long enough to hang down the knees) with plated forearm vambraces, a "floating" plate greave (does not wrap around the entire calf, just buckles on) for the lower leg, and a rather crude early breastplate that is actually tied INTO the chain, with perhaps a pair of primitive spaulders (two or three lames) on the shoulders, also tied directly into the maile.

Padding (A gamebeson/gambezon, in english, had a lot of other names in various cultures, but all basically the same garment) was a practical necessity under anything other than perhaps very light leather armor. Even under hardened leather armor, you wore a gambeson, unless you wanted to be rubbed raw and bloody after an hour's combat. (Seriously, as a guy, you will never understand a womans pain until you fight in a stiff leather breastplate without padding underneath and find your nipples rubbed raw and bloody)

A gambeson (and a thick one) was pretty much -always- worn under maile. Otherwise you'd end the day bleeding from everywhere with ring-ligatures all over your body.

By the time early plate-and-maile armor evolved into the first forms of truly articulated "plate" armor, chain maile was no longer worn underneath it. By that time, the practice had become to simply sew maile straight to the gambeson in all the places that the plate didn't cover, to save on weight and exhaustion. Also by this time, the gambeson was also an integral part of the plate armor process - they were even thicker and better quilted, often with very expensive silk in the case of noblemen and rich knights, to help defeat one of the few weapons that could actually penetrate plate armor reliably at the time - a longbow fired in arched volley or heavy crossbow (an arbalest or cranequin). In addition, by this point the gambeson was the essential rig the armor was strapped to. All the articulated pieces other than the legs themselves were tied directly to the gambeson, including the helmet and gorget, which bucked into the neckline for stability. The legs were suspended off of a belt that looks suspiciously like a weight belt you see weight lifters using.

Honestly, you couldnt wear a full suit of chain maile under a suit of plate if you wanted to - the mail would cause all the articulated joints of the plate to bind up. You wouldnt be able to move. Same with hardened/armor grade leather - it wouldnt move.

TL:DR version.. .

No tripple dipping.

So... You agree then? It isn't padded armor and plate or padded, chain and plate it is either early or late platemale. Which plate are you referring to for the Romans? The Lorica Segmentata or the Lorica Musculata/Thorax? The Musculata/Thorax was definitely plate but it was only a chest plate even Segmentata is Torso protection we didn't see the full plate that most games call platemale until much later. It would be more correct, if I'm not mistaken, to refer to only plate and chain mail as plate Mai and for something like Maximilian cavalry as Full Plate while a knight on foot would likely be wearing field plate and Maximilian Jousting is half plate even thought that half would have a higher armor class... and less mobility than the full plate... OR lower AC and mobility but higher SDC? Hmm.

[eliakon]

OOOOOoooorrrrr maybe this is a game not a reality simulation and all those armors got folded into general classes of armor with the same names (*hint by the books that is what happened*)

[Zer0 Kay]

Wiiiiiich still means you can't combine Plate, Chain and Padded because Plate is either Plate & Mail, Full Plate, Field Plate or Half Plate. And combining them is stupid and would serve as much as making a magic system that is Earth, Air, FIre and Water and that is it. No fireballs because it is combined into fire, No lightning because that is just air no ice cuz that is just water. That is it we just combined them all to make it easier. See... very stupid. Especially seeing how inundated Rifts is with armors the least they could have given us in Palladium Fantasy is the various types of armors there were.

[eliakon]

Wiiiiiich still means you can't combine Plate, Chain and Padded because Plate is either Plate & Mail, Full Plate, Field Plate or Half Plate. And combining them is stupid and would serve as much as making a magic system that is Earth, Air, FIre and Water and that is it. No fireballs because it is combined into fire, No lightning because that is just air no ice cuz that is just water. That is it we just combined them all to make it easier. See... very stupid. Especially seeing how inundated Rifts is with armors the least they could have given us in Palladium Fantasy is the various types of armors there were.

They tried.
There were a bunch of weapons and armor books. They sold really poorly, suggesting that no one was interested in that....spells and monsters and magic items though did okay....
....so that is what they printed.

But Rifts players seem to eat up yet more guns and armor and weapons...so we get more guns, more armor, and more weapons.
Which is also why there are more forms and varieties of SDC armor in Rifts than there are in the various SDC lines....Because that is what sells in Rifts.

Which, btw suggests that if you want tons of detailed variations on swords, and armors and stuff.....then tracking down the various 'weapons and armors' books might be a good investment for you.

[Blue_Lion]

From what I saw in the compendium of modern weapons it looks like they used different stat system requiring the gm/player to convert it to the game. It was not ease of use X does Y in game that could also be part of what hurt it.

[eliakon]

From what I saw in the compendium of modern weapons it looks like they used different stat system requiring the gm/player to convert it to the game. It was not ease of use X does Y in game that could also be part of what hurt it.

Quite possibly.
Though the fact that when converted into game stats they were almost all identical with only minute variations in SDC and maybe a single point of AR might have been part of it.
If I can describe fifty forms of armor as Just like plate mail +/- 5% SDC...is it really worth spending the (very limited) space in Palladium Fantasy books to print each of those armors?
*shrugs*
Though the thought occurs that if someone really thinks its such a great idea they can always do the calculations, write the material and submit it to the Rifter.
I strongly suspect that one of the reasons we have not seen much of the 'yet more toys' in PF is that the authors who have written for PF are not interested in writing such. And since the only material that will get published is the material that gets written.......

[flatline]

The compendium of weapons armor and castles is excellent reading. I highly recommend it.

The compendium of contemporary weapons is less interesting.

[Zer0 Kay]

Wiiiiiich still means you can't combine Plate, Chain and Padded because Plate is either Plate & Mail, Full Plate, Field Plate or Half Plate. And combining them is stupid and would serve as much as making a magic system that is Earth, Air, FIre and Water and that is it. No fireballs because it is combined into fire, No lightning because that is just air no ice cuz that is just water. That is it we just combined them all to make it easier. See... very stupid. Especially seeing how inundated Rifts is with armors the least they could have given us in Palladium Fantasy is the various types of armors there were.

They tried.
There were a bunch of weapons and armor books. They sold really poorly, suggesting that no one was interested in that....spells and monsters and magic items though did okay....
....so that is what they printed.

But Rifts players seem to eat up yet more guns and armor and weapons...so we get more guns, more armor, and more weapons.
Which is also why there are more forms and varieties of SDC armor in Rifts than there are in the various SDC lines....Because that is what sells in Rifts.

Which, btw suggests that if you want tons of detailed variations on swords, and armors and stuff.....then tracking down the various 'weapons and armors' books might be a good investment for you.

No they didn't, Maryann came up with some books and they didn't even use the Palladium system, without conversion... which is why those didn't do well. The magic and monsters books did use the system so were useful.

[Zer0 Kay]

The compendium of weapons armor and castles is excellent reading. I highly recommend it.

The compendium of contemporary weapons is less interesting.

I liked both.

[rem1093]

First I'm sorry for being so late coming back to this. You are missing the point I'm trying to make. Over the summer I wore ride leathers under motocross protection, that's basically two different types of armor worn at one time. With this ability all that can all be MDC. But would I have to use it once for the every thing or twice for the two different types of armor. This ability would allow you to use different types of body protection as body armor.

Also Zero Kay do you use the added strike, perry bonuses for melee weapon from the compendium book. We also tried to use the modern weapons's p.v. as a sub for, MDC.

[flatline]

We also tried to use the modern weapons's p.v. as a sub for, MDC.

Were you pleased with the result?

[rem1093]

We also tried to use the modern weapons's p.v. as a sub for, MDC.

Were you pleased with the result?

Yes and no. We started MDC at 7, then added levels for different thing. Such as, light armor was at 7, heavy armor and light power armor was at 8, and so on. The problem was with spells, super powers, psychic abilities, we couldn't get them to balance right.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

First I'm sorry for being so late coming back to this. You are missing the point I'm trying to make. Over the summer I wore ride leathers under motocross protection, that's basically two different types of armor worn at one time.

No, you wore motocross protection and a leather garment. One is armor, one is not. In no reality is motorcycle leather armor-grade.

With this ability all that can all be MDC. .

The point most of us have been making is that two types of real armor simply dont wear with each other in most cases. You cant wear full chain maile under "plate" because you wouldn't be able to move; for earlier forms of plate, the full maile was PART of the plate armor. So to wear chain maile AND plate, you'd have to be wearing TWO suits of chain - good luck moving. The links will bind on each other immediately.

[Axelmania]

That's why you wear some leather armor in between your two layers of chain so they don't bind on each other.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

That's why you wear some leather armor in between your two layers of chain so they don't bind on each other.

Theyll just bind on the leather. Im not sure you have a good concept for how thick leather has to be to be useful as armor.

And have fun carrying ~130lbs of maile on your shoulders.

[eliakon]

Could someone with sufficient strength wear several layers of armor?
Probably.
Would they have significant penalties?
Definitely.
Just a single suit of armor starts to get penalties. When you get into the heavy stuff those penalties can get pretty steep, pretty quick.
If you layer on stuff your going to get those penalties and more. You lose mobility, your joints are either not protected, or stiff with the overlapping material interfering with the full range of motion.....all sorts of stuff.
To me this conjures up memories of trying to put on body armor, over rain gear, over MOPP suits, over artic gear, over uniforms......
Sure you could do it....but you ended up looking like Randy from the movie A Christmas Story.

[Axelmania]

That's why you wear some leather armor in between your two layers of chain so they don't bind on each other.

Theyll just bind on the leather. Im not sure you have a good concept for how thick leather has to be to be useful as armor.

And have fun carrying ~130lbs of maile on your shoulders.

Could a magebane get that power tattoo of broken chain?