Building missiles

[Tor]

Are there any rules for a means of actually constructing missiles? In terms of self-sufficiency there is an OCC or a magic spell which can be used to recharge e-clips, but I'm looking for a way besides buying them to actually just build a missile to replenish ones you use.

[guardiandashi]

Are there any rules for a means of actually constructing missiles? In terms of self-sufficiency there is an OCC or a magic spell which can be used to recharge e-clips, but I'm looking for a way besides buying them to actually just build a missile to replenish ones you use.

to the best of my knowledge there isn't.

that isn't to say an operator (equivalent) couldn't do it, an armorer should be able to assemble them from components etc. but its another area that TPTB haven't touched on or considered as far as I know.

[dragonfett]

The CS EOD OCC should be able to make some (so long as they take the right skills beside the ones that they get as part of their OCC).

[Library Ogre]

Generally, Palladium doesn't do too much with manufacture of things.

[ShadowLogan]

Are there any rules for a means of actually constructing missiles? In terms of self-sufficiency there is an OCC or a magic spell which can be used to recharge e-clips, but I'm looking for a way besides buying them to actually just build a missile to replenish ones you use.

What do you mean by rules?

Warhead aspects can be covered by things like CWC (WB11)'s EOD Specialist, or the Gimmick Weapons of HU's Harware types.

The actual missile itself probably can be constructed via the vehicle construction rules (HU/N&SS) or by adapting the Robot construction rules (Rifts SB1o/r, HU) since a missile is basically a vehicle/robot. Probably need something for miniaturization.

If you are asking what skills they would need? Demolitions for constructing the warhead and the engine (they are basically controlled explosions). They also need skills to work on/construct the body. Probably some electronics skills to hand steering and other avionics (if they aren't dumb).

[Alrik Vas]

Weapons Engineer.

Possibly chemistry, rocket science...? (lol...actually need rocket science for something game-related), optic systems (if using IR/Thermal), computer programming.

Demolitions does teach you how to make explosives, but it's pretty different than making a missile, which is a designer (ie: engineer) job.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Are there any rules for a means of actually constructing missiles? In terms of self-sufficiency there is an OCC or a magic spell which can be used to recharge e-clips, but I'm looking for a way besides buying them to actually just build a missile to replenish ones you use.

*In my Galaxy Unlimited manuscript (HU space source text) I've included the ability to buy the Warhead, avionics and missile body separately so the chars can mix an match the abilities of the missile.

*Each component takes a different disciplines to build. Along with weapons Engineer....Warheads~~>demolitions & basic electronics for explosive warheads......for nuclear warheads...'astrophysics' & 'engineering', Avionics~~>'Electronics' and 'comp programing' (and optic systems if laser of TV guided), And missile bodies (structure and motors) 'Engineering' for the body, for chemical motors 'engineering' and 'chemistry', for field drives 'starship engineering' for that drive type.

*There are spells that can recharge E-clips. There are even e-clip rechargers in one of the books.

*The costs listed in the books for the missiles are for fully built and tested units. And they are built on an assembly line (probibly with lots of automation) so the costs are reduced from an individual trying to build missiles by themselves individually.

[The Beast]

Weapons Engineer.

Possibly chemistry, rocket science...? (lol...actually need rocket science for something game-related), optic systems (if using IR/Thermal), computer programming.

Demolitions does teach you how to make explosives, but it's pretty different than making a missile, which is a designer (ie: engineer) job.

Definitely need Weapons Engineer and Demolitions to design, build, & install the warhead, and you need at least Chemistry (possibly Chemistry: Analytical as well) to make the fuel if you don't have access to a place that sells it. Then again, I'm picturing the fuel being the same stuff NASA had in the Shuttle's SRBs.

Designing and building the body of the missile would likely need Electrical Engineering, and either Aircraft Mechanics or Mechanical Engineering, possibly both. I say that because Aircraft Mechanics doesn't include rockets in its description, but you are making something that is supposed to be aerodynamic. Also if you're making a smart missile, you'll need Computer Operation and Computer Programming.

[Tor]

They're such good ammo but so hard to think of world domination antics when there's no cost-in time-to-make to base logistics on.

[Blue_Lion]

Are there any rules for a means of actually constructing missiles? In terms of self-sufficiency there is an OCC or a magic spell which can be used to recharge e-clips, but I'm looking for a way besides buying them to actually just build a missile to replenish ones you use.

In theory a TW or operator with weapons engineering should be able to but no rules on how in the books.
Other than the house rules I have for building weapons I know of none. If you want when I finish editing my house rules I can send you a copy so you can see if it something that can help inspire you to come up with rules for your game.
(The focus is on the cost and time to build things, but includes different guidance options many based off RL so may be a good jump of point for your own rules.)
Or you can go with a general rule such as 25% BM cost to build and every X credits is 1 man power hour to build.

[Blue_Lion]

Weapons Engineer.

Possibly chemistry, rocket science...? (lol...actually need rocket science for something game-related), optic systems (if using IR/Thermal), computer programming.

Demolitions does teach you how to make explosives, but it's pretty different than making a missile, which is a designer (ie: engineer) job.

Definitely need Weapons Engineer and Demolitions to design, build, & install the warhead, and you need at least Chemistry (possibly Chemistry: Analytical as well) to make the fuel if you don't have access to a place that sells it. Then again, I'm picturing the fuel being the same stuff NASA had in the Shuttle's SRBs.

Designing and building the body of the missile would likely need Electrical Engineering, and either Aircraft Mechanics or Mechanical Engineering, possibly both. I say that because Aircraft Mechanics doesn't include rockets in its description, but you are making something that is supposed to be aerodynamic. Also if you're making a smart missile, you'll need Computer Operation and Computer Programming.

I disagree with apply every skill role that might possibly apply approach to tech building.

That is like saying to fire your robots gun you need to roll read sensor equipment to find it for every shot.

The design of the missile would fall completely under the most applicable skill weapons engineering. This skill includes electrical engineering as it applies to weapons such as making a laser weapon or attaching it to a vehicle, and integrated into weapons other wise it would be useless.

Let me put it this way your approach is like requiring a mechanic replacing a alternator to roll auto mechanic, electrical engineer and or electrical generation. Given that a typical auto mechanic is not likely to be able to wire a house or build a generator but can easily change an alternator this seams broken. So most build repair skill should have inherent aspects of others as it applies to the skill being used. A auto mechanic should not have to roll electrical engineering to replace a headlight or starter.

[guardiandashi]

Are there any rules for a means of actually constructing missiles? In terms of self-sufficiency there is an OCC or a magic spell which can be used to recharge e-clips, but I'm looking for a way besides buying them to actually just build a missile to replenish ones you use.

In theory a TW or operator with weapons engineering should be able to but no rules on how in the books.
Other than the house rules I have for building weapons I know of none. If you want when I finish scrubbing my house rules I can send you a copy so you can see if it something that can help inspire you to come up with rules for your game.

the biggest issue in general is that palladium other than a few guidelines never goes into detail about the actual manufacturing process. Instead leaving it up to the GM to determine.

I know I have had a number of "tech" characters, and it hasn't usually been a major issue but in hindsight it should have been.

I will use a rather extreme case. I had a character build a fighter based on the "alpha fighter concept" using a different games construction rules. it carried 3 units (clips) of ammo for a 100mm gun pod, could fire up to 6 bursts per melee and each "clip" held 20 bursts of ammo.
In addition the "fighter" had a total of 60 launch tubes for missiles (in groups of 6) 12 tubes in each leg, and 18 in each arm it also carried a total of 300 "reload" missiles for those 10 launchers. can you imagine how fast it would go through its 3 "units" of missiles even if those launchers were limited to 1 salvo (each) per melee?

on the other hand I had another char that had access to a "automated factory" pour in resources and if the plans existed... out came finished products.

now in general I would say that the first few missiles should be a bit of a pain to manufacture, but as you build more and more they should get easier, as long as you aren't deliberately tweeking the design.

[Alrik Vas]

If you have a refined process and the infrastructure, sure. Building, securing and upkeep on the infrastructure is a major issue, though.

Also Palladium's vehicle construction rules make me sad. A 100mm gun pod. The recoil, and ammunition space make my head spin.

[Blue_Lion]

If you have a refined process and the infrastructure, sure. Building, securing and upkeep on the infrastructure is a major issue, though.

Also Palladium's vehicle construction rules make me sad. A 100mm gun pod. The recoil, and ammunition space make my head spin.

The vehicle construction rules are very basic. We do use vehicle mounted weapons that big the main gun of a Abrams is 120mm. PB approach to vehicles is more about action combat than real life mechanics. Heck there is a transport vehicle that caries is not big enofe to carry the vehicles it is suppose to carry in NG.

[Alrik Vas]

That's fine, just make it bigger. /shrug

We don't have to accept the nonsense we're fed.

My point against the 100mm gun pod is that it's a burst weapon. The Abrams gun has tremendous recoil that is handed by the tank's substantial weight. A flying unit won't have that to help, and it's supposedly slinging these in what, 20 round bursts?

As a GM, I have a hard time with that. It's the same with the Glitter Boy in RUE. 1,000 rounds? 100 is much more reasonable, but may even be too much.

Though I agree, rifts goes with some crazy stuff and sometimes you do just have to shrug and go, "okay, so there's that..."

Yet I don't think everything should be easily accepted.

[Blue_Lion]

That's fine, just make it bigger. /shrug

We don't have to accept the nonsense we're fed.

My point against the 100mm gun pod is that it's a burst weapon. The Abrams gun has tremendous recoil that is handed by the tank's substantial weight. A flying unit won't have that to help, and it's supposedly slinging these in what, 20 round bursts?

As a GM, I have a hard time with that. It's the same with the Glitter Boy in RUE. 1,000 rounds? 100 is much more reasonable, but may even be too much.

Though I agree, rifts goes with some crazy stuff and sometimes you do just have to shrug and go, "okay, so there's that..."

Yet I don't think everything should be easily accepted.

*points to the part where the poster said he was using another games rules*
He was not using something from rifts and without knowing more about it hard to pass judgment. He did not use the poor vehicle rules for rifts, but another system. So the thing could for all we know be huge.

Fling units still have mass to help with the recoil as well as momentum. The A-10 main guns recoil slows down the attack jet down so a faster jet can have more recoil off set by speed.

[Alrik Vas]

The Avenger is 30mm with 70 rounds per second, the aircraft was specially designed to compensate for the weapon.

A platform based on the Alpha has no such engineering, the damn thing is made to fire it's gunpod like a human uses a rifle, but with less support from the frame as they are supposedly able to fire one handed, and this is using rounds with more than three times the diameter, and more than likely, have fairly high velocity.

This is why the Alpha didn't use a solid ammunition gunpod, but an energy based one instead. The mounting of the weapon was poorly implemented for recoil, whereas with lasers and most other beam weaponry, it's a non-issue.

But maybe we should just table this, as it's nothing to do with missiles.

[glitterboy2098]

Weapons Engineer.

Possibly chemistry, rocket science...? (lol...actually need rocket science for something game-related), optic systems (if using IR/Thermal), computer programming.

Demolitions does teach you how to make explosives, but it's pretty different than making a missile, which is a designer (ie: engineer) job.

Definitely need Weapons Engineer and Demolitions to design, build, & install the warhead, and you need at least Chemistry (possibly Chemistry: Analytical as well) to make the fuel if you don't have access to a place that sells it. Then again, I'm picturing the fuel being the same stuff NASA had in the Shuttle's SRBs.

Designing and building the body of the missile would likely need Electrical Engineering, and either Aircraft Mechanics or Mechanical Engineering, possibly both. I say that because Aircraft Mechanics doesn't include rockets in its description, but you are making something that is supposed to be aerodynamic. Also if you're making a smart missile, you'll need Computer Operation and Computer Programming.

I disagree with apply every skill role that might possibly apply approach to tech building.

That is like saying to fire your robots gun you need to roll read sensor equipment to find it for every shot.

The design of the missile would fall completely under the most applicable skill weapons engineering. This skill includes electrical engineering as it applies to weapons such as making a laser weapon or attaching it to a vehicle, and integrated into weapons other wise it would be useless.

Let me put it this way your approach is like requiring a mechanic replacing a alternator to roll auto mechanic, electrical engineer and or electrical generation. Given that a typical auto mechanic is not likely to be able to wire a house or build a generator but can easily change an alternator this seams broken. So most build repair skill should have inherent aspects of others as it applies to the skill being used. A auto mechanic should not have to roll electrical engineering to replace a headlight or starter.

how many skills you need would depend on how much work your doing to build it.

if your just assembling premade parts you'd probably only need weapons engineering. it would mostly be a case of plugging the right parts into the right places.

if you using premade parts to make type of missile that is new (not a design already done before), you'd have to add programming in there to alter the existing software to handle the differences.

however each component your build from scratch you'd ned a different set of skills. if you have to hand build the warhead from scratch, thats demolitions. the rocket, that's gonna be chemistry (to figure out the right mix of materials your burning) and an engineering (to work out the right shape, venturi, etc). building the avionics would require engineering, programming, computer repair etc..


so ultimately it comes down to how much work are you putting into each missile? are you just assembling existing parts to make the final project? or are you starting from raw materials and hand building anything?

[Alrik Vas]

Actually, if you have parts and directions, you probably only need basic mechanics and electronics. If you're designing one, then Weapons Engineer is absolutely necessary.

Of course, I'd give a penalty to someone rolling basic, the point is that you're building it from a kit, essentially, you don't need to be a rocket scientist. Though this is Rifts and knowledge isn't as easy to come by, can't exactly go on YouTube to see if you're doing it right. meh...could go either way.

[Zer0 Kay]

Are there any rules for a means of actually constructing missiles? In terms of self-sufficiency there is an OCC or a magic spell which can be used to recharge e-clips, but I'm looking for a way besides buying them to actually just build a missile to replenish ones you use.

Dude, what do you think this is, Mekton, and your just waiting for Mekton Zeta Plus?

[guardiandashi]

That's fine, just make it bigger. /shrug

We don't have to accept the nonsense we're fed.

My point against the 100mm gun pod is that it's a burst weapon. The Abrams gun has tremendous recoil that is handed by the tank's substantial weight. A flying unit won't have that to help, and it's supposedly slinging these in what, 20 round bursts?

As a GM, I have a hard time with that. It's the same with the Glitter Boy in RUE. 1,000 rounds? 100 is much more reasonable, but may even be too much.

Though I agree, rifts goes with some crazy stuff and sometimes you do just have to shrug and go, "okay, so there's that..."

Yet I don't think everything should be easily accepted.

*points to the part where the poster said he was using another games rules*
He was not using something from rifts and without knowing more about it hard to pass judgment. He did not use the poor vehicle rules for rifts, but another system. So the thing could for all we know be huge.

Fling units still have mass to help with the recoil as well as momentum. The A-10 main guns recoil slows down the attack jet down so a faster jet can have more recoil off set by speed.

actually the fighter that packs the gun is ~50 tons, and it fired 5 round bursts so technically each "clip" was only 100 rounds. so a standard "burst" was firing those rounds in ~2-3 seconds, so its still on the bad side, and as far as using "thrust" to offset the recoil, that 50 ton "fighter" was capable of a full 3g's of thrust, meaning if you stood it up vertically on a launch pad like the space shuttle, it could accelerate at 19.6m/s[sup]2[/sup]straight up. it also enough fuel to maintain a 2g burn for 40 min, or a 3g burn for 20 min, before having to resort to external drop tanks.

[ShadowLogan]

Actually, if you have parts and directions, you probably only need basic mechanics and electronics. If you're designing one, then Weapons Engineer is absolutely necessary.

Of course, I'd give a penalty to someone rolling basic, the point is that you're building it from a kit, essentially, you don't need to be a rocket scientist. Though this is Rifts and knowledge isn't as easy to come by, can't exactly go on YouTube to see if you're doing it right. meh...could go either way.

If we are talking Kit building you are probably right, maybe not even needing skills or having it covered by a WP.

I disagree about needing the Weapon Engineer skill to design one. Missile design can be broken down into several sections, none of which would seem to be covered by the Weapons Engineer Skill IIMHO (which allows you to workout the mounting aspect):
-Demolitions related skills for the warhead
-Propulsion, Mutants in Orbits Drive Repair skill (Chemical specifically, though I might further restrict it to solid, liquid, or hybrid), other wise Demolitions might be the closest applicable skill without needing an overly specialized skill to be imported. Then again a WP that uses propellants might also work (at a suitable size), if the WP is viewed as covering "packing" the propellant for bullet/shells. Advanced Chemistry skills to actual make the material
-Aircraft mechanics, since you would need to factor in aerodynamics (this is the best skill for this aspect unless you want to use overly specialized Spacecraft mechanics type). This does cover flight systems, which a missile is and it isn't very high tech. Mechanical engineer might also work, but it could also be to broad
-avionics are likely covered by appropriate skills to, but that depends on various choices in this regard concerning sensors and control setup

Now if one is looking for customized missiles with non-standard performances for warhead and range/speed rules. Those really don't exist. Though there are ways to make the warhead. The range/speed is another matter.

[Nox Equites]

From the ground up you need an infrastructure that few places on RE have. You can scavenge from existing components but the result will be sub par compared to purpose built parts tested to work together. Up to the GM how feasible some ideas are. Mini missiles are easiest but barring a major tech base even they are finicky.

[Alrik Vas]

using demolitions to make the warhead on a missile is faulty in my opinion, ShadowLogan. I mean, I don't disagree that you can use the skill to make explosives, and I'm not saying you can't put those explosives on a missile.

Yet...I don't think, for instance, you could make the nuclear warhead for certain LRMs, or the proton torpedo warhead, or the plasma warhead for everything on mini-missiles up.

You could use demolitions to substitute fusion blocks for the standard munitions, but then you might have an oddly shaped missile.

Chemical engineers do that kind of work, as well as nuclear scientists. It isn't something a grunt with the demo skill is really going to be able to handle from the ground up.

[Blue_Lion]

Actually, if you have parts and directions, you probably only need basic mechanics and electronics. If you're designing one, then Weapons Engineer is absolutely necessary.

Of course, I'd give a penalty to someone rolling basic, the point is that you're building it from a kit, essentially, you don't need to be a rocket scientist. Though this is Rifts and knowledge isn't as easy to come by, can't exactly go on YouTube to see if you're doing it right. meh...could go either way.

If we are talking Kit building you are probably right, maybe not even needing skills or having it covered by a WP.

I disagree about needing the Weapon Engineer skill to design one. Missile design can be broken down into several sections, none of which would seem to be covered by the Weapons Engineer Skill IIMHO (which allows you to workout the mounting aspect):
-Demolitions related skills for the warhead
-Propulsion, Mutants in Orbits Drive Repair skill (Chemical specifically, though I might further restrict it to solid, liquid, or hybrid), other wise Demolitions might be the closest applicable skill without needing an overly specialized skill to be imported. Then again a WP that uses propellants might also work (at a suitable size), if the WP is viewed as covering "packing" the propellant for bullet/shells. Advanced Chemistry skills to actual make the material
-Aircraft mechanics, since you would need to factor in aerodynamics (this is the best skill for this aspect unless you want to use overly specialized Spacecraft mechanics type). This does cover flight systems, which a missile is and it isn't very high tech. Mechanical engineer might also work, but it could also be to broad
-avionics are likely covered by appropriate skills to, but that depends on various choices in this regard concerning sensors and control setup

Now if one is looking for customized missiles with non-standard performances for warhead and range/speed rules. Those really don't exist. Though there are ways to make the warhead. The range/speed is another matter.

Lets see weapons engineering says it has a complete understanding of military class weapons. It even says it includes not only the launcher but the missile. Let me ask you this if you have a complete understanding of something does that not mean you understand every thing about it? Building something is part of what is related to it.


Demolition covers use of explosives not creation of explosives. A making a missile war head seams out side of its scope. Aircraft mechanics covers aircraft, missiles are not classified as aircraft but weapons. Most missiles are unguided so not sure why people think that they need to be programed. Propulsion skill is not available in rifts but missiles are so the skill is not likely needed. Might go with requiring chemistry if they can not get there hands on a ready made fuel supply, but NG sales a fuel that should be able to be converted to the need.

You are clearly of make them roll every skill that you might think is even remotely related mind set. As I said I do not fallow that logic but require the use of the most related skill to creation of said item. Computer repair to build a computer, mechanical engineer to build an elevator, electrical engineer to build a radio, weapons engineer to build a weapon. Even thou most skill do not address if they can build or design something only list what they cover.

By your logic to build a car/bike if every skill was at 50% you would only have 12.5% chance of success. Mechanical engineer 50% (mechanics of the car), electrical engineer 50% of 50 is 25 (electrical wiring lights alternator battery) chemistry (fuel) 50% of 25=12.5%. IF we through in auto mechanic to assemble or modify the vehicle to get it to perform then you are at 6.25% If you require electrical generation for the alternator it drops down to 3.125%. So most likely you would be around 3rd-5th level to get all the skills to 50% (have to be some modifiers) and only have 12.5% chance of success on a major project. (That would be equal to needing roll a natural 17+ on a d20)

[dragonfett]

Weapons Engineer.

Possibly chemistry, rocket science...? (lol...actually need rocket science for something game-related), optic systems (if using IR/Thermal), computer programming.

Demolitions does teach you how to make explosives, but it's pretty different than making a missile, which is a designer (ie: engineer) job.

Definitely need Weapons Engineer and Demolitions to design, build, & install the warhead, and you need at least Chemistry (possibly Chemistry: Analytical as well) to make the fuel if you don't have access to a place that sells it. Then again, I'm picturing the fuel being the same stuff NASA had in the Shuttle's SRBs.

Designing and building the body of the missile would likely need Electrical Engineering, and either Aircraft Mechanics or Mechanical Engineering, possibly both. I say that because Aircraft Mechanics doesn't include rockets in its description, but you are making something that is supposed to be aerodynamic. Also if you're making a smart missile, you'll need Computer Operation and Computer Programming.

I disagree with apply every skill role that might possibly apply approach to tech building.

That is like saying to fire your robots gun you need to roll read sensor equipment to find it for every shot.

The design of the missile would fall completely under the most applicable skill weapons engineering. This skill includes electrical engineering as it applies to weapons such as making a laser weapon or attaching it to a vehicle, and integrated into weapons other wise it would be useless.

Let me put it this way your approach is like requiring a mechanic replacing a alternator to roll auto mechanic, electrical engineer and or electrical generation. Given that a typical auto mechanic is not likely to be able to wire a house or build a generator but can easily change an alternator this seams broken. So most build repair skill should have inherent aspects of others as it applies to the skill being used. A auto mechanic should not have to roll electrical engineering to replace a headlight or starter.

Hey Blue_Lion, the mechanic is only loosening a bolt or two, disconnecting some wires, swapping the box, and then reversing the steps to change an alternator. If the same mechanic wanted to repair the alternator himself (or design one of his own), then he would need Electrical Engineer or Electrical Generation.

To compare with the missiles someone wants to design, if they wanted to swap out a faulty missile motor, I would have the person roll first for Demolitions Disposal (to make sure that they don't accidentally detonate the warhead while working on the body of the missile because that would SUCK!), then roll either Weapon Engineer (if he had it) or Basic Mechanics (at a penalty) to change the motor.

If the same person wanted to design a new motor for the missile, I would then have them roll a Chemistry roll for the propellant then Mechanical Engineering for the body of the motor to withstand the pressures that it will exert while also trying to balance it's weight and so on and so forth. Then they would have to do the rolls to swap out the old one for the prototype.

[ShadowLogan]

Yet...I don't think, for instance, you could make the nuclear warhead for certain LRMs, or the proton torpedo warhead, or the plasma warhead for everything on mini-missiles up.

That there may be additional skills required for specific warhead types and stages of construction, I do not dispute, but in general demolitions would be involved at some stages of construction.

You could use demolitions to substitute fusion blocks for the standard munitions, but then you might have an oddly shaped missile

Not necessarily regarding the end product. Aircraft mechanics would allow one to fashion a more aerodynamic nose cone/body. It is also possible that the warhead itself isn't in the front of the missile, but a bit further back to make room for a guidance package (this is true of at least some Real missiles).

Demolition covers use of explosives not creation of explosives.

It also covers placment of explosives, which would IMHO cover installation of the warhead. The actual design of the warhead, might be pushing it, but when you consider things like "Trap Construction" require Demolitions to make versions that work on MDC structures it seems it would be a requirement.

Aircraft mechanics covers aircraft, missiles are not classified as aircraft but weapons.

"the understanding of aerodynamics and the training to repair, rebuild, modify and redesign ...[jump to relevant part of list] rocket bikes," (RUE pg312), it also mentions working on military aircraft is limited in scope unless the Weapon Systems skill is also known.

So this skill provides the training to design the body of the vehicle from an aerodynamic perspective. Their ability to work on rocket bikes would also allow them to work on rockets, which are basically missiles w/o the warhead.

Most missiles are unguided so not sure why people think that they need to be programed.

Probably a hold over from other periods in PB where SRM and above had guidance (RMB, RT1E, HU2E, Macross2) as opposed to current take (RUE, RT2E's copy/paste from RUE). Mini-missiles are the most common type of missile though in Rifts.

Propulsion skill is not available in rifts but missiles are so the skill is not likely needed

It is likely not need at the adventurer level for Rifts, but for the behind the scenes guys and gals it would be. Rocket Bikes are covered by Aircraft mechanics, so rocket engines would be covered there, and since there is no difference between a rocket motor and missile motor, Aircraft Mechanics is the best skill in this regard unless you make propulsion skills available.

However, because missile is likely to be solid fueled as opposed to nuclear/liquid, the training to make the propulsive aspect of a bullet or artillery shell might work better in this regard.

Lets see weapons engineering says it has a complete understanding of military class weapons

I have to disagree since there are aspects that would not be covered by the skill itself, but require additional skills to avoid penalties or to even be able to do anything (ex. Locksmith can't work on high-tech locks w/o support skills, in HU2E Hardware characters take penalties, even in 1E RT you had the Bio-Maintaince Engineer needing related skills to avoid/reduce penalties for repair work, there is also the previously mentioned Trap Construction skill). They have the understanding to integrate those things into vehicles IMHO and use them, not design them from the ground up without support skills since WE doesn't allow you to know how to place explosives (Demolitions) nor consider aerodynamic effects on the design (Aircraft mechanics), you might get a basic body/frame (from Mechanical Engineer requirement) but it is far from ideal (like having aircraft mechanics would be) that could impact range/speed.

By your logic to build a car/bike if every skill was at 50% you would only have 12.5% chance of success. Mechanical engineer 50% (mechanics of the car), electrical engineer 50% of 50 is 25 (electrical wiring lights alternator battery) chemistry (fuel) 50% of 25=12.5%. IF we through in auto mechanic to assemble or modify the vehicle to get it to perform then you are at 6.25% If you require electrical generation for the alternator it drops down to 3.125%. So most likely you would be around 3rd-5th level to get all the skills to 50% (have to be some modifiers) and only have 12.5% chance of success on a major project. (That would be equal to needing roll a natural 17+ on a d20)

It all depends on what needs to actually be done and what level of "build car/bike" we are talking about. If it is using stock parts, the requirements go down, but if they are doing custom designed parts the requirements should go up. They only reason they would need Chemistry skills is if they are making the fuel themselves or using an unknown fuel, as Auto Mechanics would give the character the necessary background w/known fuels in this role (gasoline ex) for the engine.

[Blue_Lion]

I think it is well within the scope of the skill. Letts see how weapons engineering is used in real life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_technology

http://www.insidejobs.com/careers/weapons-engineer

http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/about/cranfi ... ering.html

http://classroom.synonym.com/weapons-en ... -4141.html

The skill does not talk about making weapons because that is not part of the basic rules but Weapons engineer is what they call the people that design military skills. The skill set to make weapons is refereed to as weapons engineering.

Wiki refers to it as -Weapons engineering is the design, development, testing and lifecycle management of military weapons and systems. It draws on the knowledge of several traditional engineering disciplines, including mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, mechatronics, electro-optics, aerospace engineering, materials engineering, and chemical engineering.


So the most relevant skill to build weapons is Weapons engineer. You can argue all you want that it does not cover it but it is quite clear to me that it is the only skill that would cover it and that it falls completely within the scope of the skill.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, we can throw out what Palladium thinks of skills, I guess. I was reading earlier and they say that a mechanical engineer can make nuclear and fusion reactors so I'm at a loss, honestly.

[Nox Equites]

Well, we can throw out what Palladium thinks of skills, I guess. I was reading earlier and they say that a mechanical engineer can make nuclear and fusion reactors so I'm at a loss, honestly.

I take that to mean they design the structural components rather than the power cores. Most of the mass of a nuclear reactor is cooling and shielding. They tried to streamline the skills to avoid the paralysis by analysis of N&S skill selection.

[Alrik Vas]

Take it to mean whatever you like, it's your game at the table. I'm still scratching me head.

[Shark_Force]

Well, we can throw out what Palladium thinks of skills, I guess. I was reading earlier and they say that a mechanical engineer can make nuclear and fusion reactors so I'm at a loss, honestly.

I take that to mean they design the structural components rather than the power cores. Most of the mass of a nuclear reactor is cooling and shielding. They tried to streamline the skills to avoid the paralysis by analysis of N&S skill selection.

out of curiosity, what kind of engineering degree *do* you think it takes before they let you design a reactor?

(for the record, my grandfather was originally a toolmaker who came to canada, got a degree in mechanical engineering, and was one of two engineers who designed the reactor core for a prototype nuclear reactor that is still in widespread use today, and is considered one of the safest designs out there. so, as it turns out, mechanical engineers do, or at least did, design nuclear reactors... though certainly he didn't do it alone, and i'm sure not every single mechanical engineer has the knowledge to design one).

[Alrik Vas]

That's awesome