Stealth weapons?

[Blue_Lion]

Physics is pseudo-science?

Untill you have a laser rifle. Then any sort of 'reaction' upon being shot by a laser rifle, is conjecture at best. Throwing alot of technical or scientific sounding words around it doesn't change that fact. You can 'guess' what might happen but you don't 'know'.

Dude, lasers are real. Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn about them doesn't change that fact.

Lasers able to burn holes in things have been around for decades. Us military is testing a laser system on a large jet to shoot down incoming missiles. So while we have not miniaturized a laser and its power source to rifles we do know how they work as weapons. The use of a laser weapon against human targets is banned by the Laws of War. That means some one has a good idea of the affect they have on people and it is worse than being shot with a traditional weapon. The army also added notes on lasers burns in its first aid classes.

[Blue_Lion]

Or just buy the TW Silencer in the New West book, which renders most guns in the game completely silent at the cost of 10% of the guns range.

Yeah, but since the complaint was about the noise the TARGET makes that doesn't solve the problem

So you make a techno-wizard silencer that silences the target!

You got it back words you enchant the bullets of a boom gun with glob of silence so it moves with the round. TW + globe of silence + GB= silent kill up to 2 miles away.


Teleporting rounds that teleport the target 75 miles straight up would work as well.

If the intent is sniping then you just need to make the weapon quite. But if you want a undetectable kill then it depends on number and type of targets on what would work.

[SpiritInterface]

a .22 semi-auto pistol with a proper sound suppressor and a slide lock to prevent the weapon from cycling makes so little noise that it can not be heard beyond 5' and when used against an unsuspecting target in the proper manner as so that the body does not make any noise...

The art of the silent kill is something that warriors, engineers, and others have been working on since time began.

Uh... Yeah, so what your saying is the same targets that can be taken Dow with the knife from the OP can be silently killed by a .22 with a suppressor and slidelock... So ya still got nothing for MDC?

In the game there is no way to Silently kill a prepared target, which is the only reason you would need to do MDC damage short of attacking a supernatural target.

[Zer0 Kay]

a .22 semi-auto pistol with a proper sound suppressor and a slide lock to prevent the weapon from cycling makes so little noise that it can not be heard beyond 5' and when used against an unsuspecting target in the proper manner as so that the body does not make any noise...

The art of the silent kill is something that warriors, engineers, and others have been working on since time began.

Uh... Yeah, so what your saying is the same targets that can be taken Dow with the knife from the OP can be silently killed by a .22 with a suppressor and slidelock... So ya still got nothing for MDC?

In the game there is no way to Silently kill a prepared target, which is the only reason you would need to do MDC damage short of attacking a supernatural target.

Mostly being contrary here. Yes there is you knock them out, super glue their breathing aperatti and sit on them till they die.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Physics is pseudo-science?

Untill you have a laser rifle. Then any sort of 'reaction' upon being shot by a laser rifle, is conjecture at best. Throwing alot of technical or scientific sounding words around it doesn't change that fact. You can 'guess' what might happen but you don't 'know'.

Dude, lasers are real. Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn about them doesn't change that fact.

You've got a laser rifle? Cool. What kind? Where'd you get it?

[flatline]

Physics is pseudo-science?

Untill you have a laser rifle. Then any sort of 'reaction' upon being shot by a laser rifle, is conjecture at best. Throwing alot of technical or scientific sounding words around it doesn't change that fact. You can 'guess' what might happen but you don't 'know'.

Dude, lasers are real. Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn about them doesn't change that fact.

You've got a laser rifle? Cool. What kind? Where'd you get it?

Trolling is against the forum rules.

[Zer0 Kay]

Physics is pseudo-science?

Untill you have a laser rifle. Then any sort of 'reaction' upon being shot by a laser rifle, is conjecture at best. Throwing alot of technical or scientific sounding words around it doesn't change that fact. You can 'guess' what might happen but you don't 'know'.

Dude, lasers are real. Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn about them doesn't change that fact.

You've got a laser rifle? Cool. What kind? Where'd you get it?

Trolling is against the forum rules.

And "Dude lasers are real..." When he was clearly referring to weapons not experiments and prototypes. The reaction soft and hard targets have to modern laser scalpels is different to that of the giant anti missile laser which would be different to an MD laser. Laser scalpels don't hiss when the contact flesh and the big one doesn't even punch a hole through metal but superheats the missile until it detonates. An MD laser would vaporize flesh. No sizzle because everything that was heated is gone. In hard targets it may or rather should cause fusion with the impact. At the very less an explosion from mass destabilization of the hard targets crystalline structure.

[Alrik Vas]

I agree with flatline, and you, Zer0. The amount of energy we're talking about is tremendous. A sizzle, even when striking a mega-structure, is in all likelihood a gross understatement.

Yet, from a pure game/setting perspective though, Pepsi Jedi is right. The only information we have officially is that lasers pop and sizzle (or just sizzle?), no matter what they strike. We can use our brains all we want, but the wording is there.

Of course, I throw it out the window as per the other rule Palladium likes so much (where you choose what rules there are to make a better or more fun game).

[Jefffar]

Does it ever tell us how loud a pop and sizzle it makes? I know when I dump some meat into a really hot wok I get a pretty loud noise.

[Alrik Vas]

heh, or a hot iron into cold water, that's a sizzle and I can hear that all through my house.

[Blue_Lion]

Does it ever tell us how loud a pop and sizzle it makes? I know when I dump some meat into a really hot wok I get a pretty loud noise.

Well an expulsions sound is just basically a really loud popping sound. A near human size demon with over 400 MD might sizzle when hit by a 2d6 while a human might have a popping sound as the pressure wave displaces the air when he gets vaporized now the humans sound is likely to be louder than the demons. Given that the hole transfer of heat happens in a fraction of a second the sizzle sound will not last long and may be missed or mistaken.

[Library Ogre]

Does it ever tell us how loud a pop and sizzle it makes? I know when I dump some meat into a really hot wok I get a pretty loud noise.

"Careful, sir, the fajitas are very hot. Also, the remains of Tyrone."

[Pepsi Jedi]

Physics is pseudo-science?

Untill you have a laser rifle. Then any sort of 'reaction' upon being shot by a laser rifle, is conjecture at best. Throwing alot of technical or scientific sounding words around it doesn't change that fact. You can 'guess' what might happen but you don't 'know'.

Dude, lasers are real. Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn about them doesn't change that fact.

You've got a laser rifle? Cool. What kind? Where'd you get it?

Trolling is against the forum rules.

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

[Alrik Vas]

There are many ways to instantly apply several megajoules of energy to a human body. I have my doubts that any of them result in only a sizzle.

[Zer0 Kay]

Physics is pseudo-science?

Untill you have a laser rifle. Then any sort of 'reaction' upon being shot by a laser rifle, is conjecture at best. Throwing alot of technical or scientific sounding words around it doesn't change that fact. You can 'guess' what might happen but you don't 'know'.

Dude, lasers are real. Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn about them doesn't change that fact.

Lasers able to burn holes in things have been around for decades. Us military is testing a laser system on a large jet to shoot down incoming missiles. So while we have not miniaturized a laser and its power source to rifles we do know how they work as weapons. The use of a laser weapon against human targets is banned by the Laws of War. That means some one has a good idea of the affect they have on people and it is worse than being shot with a traditional weapon. The army also added notes on lasers burns in its first aid classes.

It does not burn a hole, it superheats the casing causing critical failure NORMALLY resulting in the engine or warhead detonating.

[Zer0 Kay]

I agree with flatline, and you, Zer0. The amount of energy we're talking about is tremendous. A sizzle, even when striking a mega-structure, is in all likelihood a gross understatement.

Yet, from a pure game/setting perspective though, Pepsi Jedi is right. The only information we have officially is that lasers pop and sizzle (or just sizzle?), no matter what they strike. We can use our brains all we want, but the wording is there.

Of course, I throw it out the window as per the other rule Palladium likes so much (where you choose what rules there are to make a better or more fun game).

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I've been watching this thread for a while now (and shaking my head for most of the time). The recent discussion finally pulled me in as I decided a few quotes might be worth adding.

[quote='Rifts Sourcebook One (original); Page 6"]Suddenly a deer ... makes a dash through open ground! The character whirls around and blasts it with his mega-damage handgun, inflicting two (2) M.D.! The animal is torn in half by the blast and the medium tree is also split in half and falls over toward the character .... Behind the tree is a volleyball size swath cut through the bushes, some 50 yards long.[/quote]
[quote='Rifts Sourcebook One (original); Page 6"]You return fire with a mega-damage assault rifle and strike, inflicting 8 M.D.! The suspect's entire upper torso is vaporised.[/quote]
[quote='Rifts Sourcebook One (original); Page 6"]Each shot misses, but punches basketball size holes through the walls and into the street where a fleeing patron is blasted in half.[/quote]
[quote='Rifts Sourcebook One (original); Page 6"]He hits him in the head inflicting four (4) M.D. points ... The man's head is torn from the shoulder and bounces off the wall across the room or is splattered like a melon.[/quote]
The first quote is specifically about an energy pistol. The second and third are a mega-damage assault rifle. The fourth is a mega-damage punch.

We definitely see some detailed images here. Of course, "vaporised" isn't the same as super loud explosions either. I think the part I find most perplexing is that somehow a 2D6 M.D. laser will cause things to explode, but a 2D6 M.D. pistol figuring bullets deals the same collateral damage as a weapon 100 times weaker. That because it's somehow a physical round, the target can't make a sound, the attack can't possibly blow through and hit other people or items, nothing. Just somehow because the gun fires silent (same as a laser) everything about is silent and untraceable.

Though since I'm here ...

Spell casting in rifts takes spoken words too doesn't it?

This is quoted in Underseas under Ocean Magic. In Underseas, we can take it as a general rule (the wording does sound like a general rule) and just placed in an odd location (Palladium does that).

Then it's repeated in Rifts Book of Magic, specifically under Ocean Magic ... again. This time it becomes more suspect if it's a general rule or not, because despite the wording it's listed under a specific type of magic only. Palladium is, of course, known for bad copy and paste jobs, so maybe that could be the reason.

Then in RUE (which post dates both sources), one page it states "To cast a spell requires verbalization" and "The mantra of the spell must be spoken aloud and with authority." The words used are "requires" and "must," neither make it sound optional. It also says that you have to speak it with authority, so doesn't sound like you can mutter or whisper it either (at least from the way I'm reading it).

Take that all how you will. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Zer0 Kay]

Who said that the bullet with that much force, still measured in joules shouldn't cause fusion? IF this stuff were real they would or at least instantaneous crystalline destabilization in hard targets. But then again when a laser hits most of its energy is heat not k-e, so where a bullet is far mor likely to penetrate the surface a laser is going to heat it up a lot more and if that ends up superheating it and destabilizing the crystalline structure then the laser doing as much damage to a tank will make a louder pop especially with turning the air along the superheated surface to plasma. Do a search for laser propulsion and there should be a video showing a laser that wouldn't be classified as MD propelling a disk. The plasma it creates (probably actually the noise of the air filling the space created, makes loud pops now amplify that accordingly for an MD laser. Just think that the air it is going through for an MD laser should be making just about as much noise as it turns not just the air it is going through but the air immediately around it into plasma.

[dragonfett]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I've been watching this thread for a while now (and shaking my head for most of the time). The recent discussion finally pulled me in as I decided a few quotes might be worth adding.

Suddenly a deer ... makes a dash through open ground! The character whirls around and blasts it with his mega-damage handgun, inflicting two (2) M.D.! The animal is torn in half by the blast and the medium tree is also split in half and falls over toward the character .... Behind the tree is a volleyball size swath cut through the bushes, some 50 yards long.

You return fire with a mega-damage assault rifle and strike, inflicting 8 M.D.! The suspect's entire upper torso is vaporised.

Each shot misses, but punches basketball size holes through the walls and into the street where a fleeing patron is blasted in half.

He hits him in the head inflicting four (4) M.D. points ... The man's head is torn from the shoulder and bounces off the wall across the room or is splattered like a melon.

The first quote is specifically about an energy pistol. The second and third are a mega-damage assault rifle. The fourth is a mega-damage punch.

We definitely see some detailed images here. Of course, "vaporised" isn't the same as super loud explosions either. I think the part I find most perplexing is that somehow a 2D6 M.D. laser will cause things to explode, but a 2D6 M.D. pistol figuring bullets deals the same collateral damage as a weapon 100 times weaker. That because it's somehow a physical round, the target can't make a sound, the attack can't possibly blow through and hit other people or items, nothing. Just somehow because the gun fires silent (same as a laser) everything about is silent and untraceable.

Though since I'm here ...

Spell casting in rifts takes spoken words too doesn't it?

This is quoted in Underseas under Ocean Magic. In Underseas, we can take it as a general rule (the wording does sound like a general rule) and just placed in an odd location (Palladium does that).

Then it's repeated in Rifts Book of Magic, specifically under Ocean Magic ... again. This time it becomes more suspect if it's a general rule or not, because despite the wording it's listed under a specific type of magic only. Palladium is, of course, known for bad copy and paste jobs, so maybe that could be the reason.

Then in RUE (which post dates both sources), one page it states "To cast a spell requires verbalization" and "The mantra of the spell must be spoken aloud and with authority." The words used are "requires" and "must," neither make it sound optional. It also says that you have to speak it with authority, so doesn't sound like you can mutter or whisper it either (at least from the way I'm reading it).

Take that all how you will. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

As far as the casting spell is concerned, there is a 1st level spell that infers that either there is no mantra to recite, or that it does not need to be done loudly (such as under one's breath). It is Death Trance. While the text of the spell doesn't state this, it says:

[quote="RUE page 198, Death Trance]A magically induced trance which makes the spell caster appear to be dead. There is no breathing, pulse, heartbeat, or any other signs of life. While in the trance, the mage is quite helpless, unable to speak, move or invoke magic. Only minor physical sensations felt by the character are recognizable, like being jostled, carried or hearing voices, but no specific identification or memories are possible. The magic can be canceled at any time.[/quote]

The duration of the spell is 10 melees (or 2.5 minutes) per level of the spell caster. That is not a lot of time to use it to sneak into a secure compound for whatever reason, but if the character were low on HP/MDC and needed a way to no longer be a threat in combat, they could quietly cast this spell and try to make it seem like are dead. Risky? Sure, but it beats being actually dead.

To be honest, any spell that either deceives individuals or hides the caster would, by necessity, be quiet (not necessarily silent) spells, otherwise it would instantly reveal the caster's intent/position (while a person not versed with magic spells may not be able to identify a specific spell being cast, a pawn shop owner hearing a patron loudly, the shop owner should be immediately suspicious and refuse to allow that person to ever return).

Other spells (just from the RUE mind you) include: Cloak of Darkness, Concealment, Heavy Breathing, Invisibility: Simple, Charismatic Aura (this one MUST be cast while speaking to the intended target, therefore doesn't have a traditional mantra, however speaking loudly would alert the targets possible allies into investigating further), Fool's Gold, Shadow Meld, Charm, Domination, Compulsion, Mask of Deceit, and Invisibility: Superior.

[flatline]

As far as the casting spell is concerned, there is a 1st level spell that infers that either there is no mantra to recite, or that it does not need to be done loudly (such as under one's breath). It is Death Trance. While the text of the spell doesn't state this, it says:

[quote="RUE page 198, Death Trance]A magically induced trance which makes the spell caster appear to be dead. There is no breathing, pulse, heartbeat, or any other signs of life. While in the trance, the mage is quite helpless, unable to speak, move or invoke magic. Only minor physical sensations felt by the character are recognizable, like being jostled, carried or hearing voices, but no specific identification or memories are possible. The magic can be canceled at any time.

The duration of the spell is 10 melees (or 2.5 minutes) per level of the spell caster. That is not a lot of time to use it to sneak into a secure compound for whatever reason, but if the character were low on HP/MDC and needed a way to no longer be a threat in combat, they could quietly cast this spell and try to make it seem like are dead. Risky? Sure, but it beats being actually dead.

To be honest, any spell that either deceives individuals or hides the caster would, by necessity, be quiet (not necessarily silent) spells, otherwise it would instantly reveal the caster's intent/position (while a person not versed with magic spells may not be able to identify a specific spell being cast, a pawn shop owner hearing a patron loudly, the shop owner should be immediately suspicious and refuse to allow that person to ever return).

Other spells (just from the RUE mind you) include: Cloak of Darkness, Concealment, Heavy Breathing, Invisibility: Simple, Charismatic Aura (this one MUST be cast while speaking to the intended target, therefore doesn't have a traditional mantra, however speaking loudly would alert the targets possible allies into investigating further), Fool's Gold, Shadow Meld, Charm, Domination, Compulsion, Mask of Deceit, and Invisibility: Superior.[/quote]

These kinds of considerations (especially what I bolded in the quoted text) are why we originally made the house rule that spells could be cast tacit but that it took twice as long. We came up with this house rule originally for Beyond the Supernatural and then imported it into Heroes and, eventually, Rifts. You can imagine our surprise when we got Underseas and discovered that our house rule was now canon.

[Blue_Lion]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

[eliakon]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

Awesome! I have always wanted to know this stuff
What is the wattage of a laser rifle?
What is the frequency of light that they use?
What is the duration of the laser pulse?
Since you are claiming that we know this stuff it should be easy to tell us this right?
Or....maybe his point is that we DONT know what "a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time" is.
And if we don't know what that is, then we can't know what its effects are.
Because either
1) you can provide us with what "a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time" is
or
2) his statement that it is an unfounded assumption is true since your claim that we can know what it is by looking at said beam is false as we don't have said beam to look at

Balls back in your court.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

Wait what is LOW and why are lasers again it?

[dragonfett]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

Wait what is LOW and why are lasers again it?

LOW (which should have been abbreviated as LoW) stands as Laws of War, and lasers would be against it because they cause unnecessary suffering in the target.

[eliakon]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

Wait what is LOW and why are lasers again it?

LOW (which should have been abbreviated as LoW) stands as Laws of War, and lasers would be against it because they cause unnecessary suffering in the target.

And since lasers aren't against the Laws of Land Warfare, nor against the Geneva Accords its a specious argument (This is why, for instance the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force have been spending billions on developing, testing, and deploying laser weapons )

For the curious the actual international law on the subject is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_ ... er_Weapons
You will note the utter lack of discussion on damaging lasers. Which is important since there are currently actively fielded combat laser weapons....

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

No. Untill you have a laser rifle you do NOT know how a laser rifle will react. Because.. you don't have a laser rifle. You can try and dance around it, but the fact is we do NOT have laser rifles. Nor do we have lasers where you pull a trigger, and a Laser blasts a mega damage type blast.

Yes we have weapons, as pointed out that if you point them at a missile, can heat it up till it explodes. But that's not the same way.

All you have is speculation on how you THINK A laser weapon will work. No 'facts'. You can speculate, guess, estimate, but you don't "Know". Acting like you know how a fictional sci fi, mega damage weapon will work, is amusing.

[Blue_Lion]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

Wait what is LOW and why are lasers again it?

Laws of War.
International laws to cover wars, based off the Geneva convention.
Anti personal laser weapons are banned because they where determined to cause needless suffering. A clause not assigned to traditional fire arms. To create such a clause means some one did research on how different types and strength lasers would affect humans. Other banned weapons include but not limited to hollow point ammo, chemical weapons, biological weapons, barbed blades.

[Blue_Lion]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

No. Untill you have a laser rifle you do NOT know how a laser rifle will react. Because.. you don't have a laser rifle. You can try and dance around it, but the fact is we do NOT have laser rifles. Nor do we have lasers where you pull a trigger, and a Laser blasts a mega damage type blast.

Yes we have weapons, as pointed out that if you point them at a missile, can heat it up till it explodes. But that's not the same way.

All you have is speculation on how you THINK A laser weapon will work. No 'facts'. You can speculate, guess, estimate, but you don't "Know". Acting like you know how a fictional sci fi, mega damage weapon will work, is amusing.

It is not the rifle that causes the affect but the laser. A lasers affect is not set by the size and type of the projector but the beam it shoots. So you only need the ability to create the beam to determine the affect. People here have done the math on the amount of power per shot from a laser rifle. We can also use references on pulse to determine
the duration of said beam.

Science does have hard facts on how lasers affect targets so it is possible to determine the affects of a laser rifle based off the beam even without a rifle.

If we are going to use Sci fi clause then it works how the books tell us it does, if you going to use real life It works like it has been determined to by science. How lasers work is known making a smaller projector does not change how lasers or light work.

(I never claimed I know but said the information does exist and you can not say that people do not know how they work, because they lack a laser rifle. That is flawed logic, because it is not the rifle but the laser beam that does the damage so you only need the ability to make laser beams capable of delivering damage.)

[Jefffar]

Just to interject before things get too heated here.

1) Yes, we do not have rifts style mega-damage laser rifles - however we do have high energy lasers from which a reasonable assessment of the realistic effects of a mega-damage laser rifle could be inferred.

2) Yes, blinding laser weapons are prohibited under international agreements, with a few major loopholes. A laser weapon that burned flesh or metal would not be against those agreements.

3) As noted, Rifts text often overrides physics, so the official sound of a laser weapon in Rifts may not reflect the probable reality.

4) This is getting a tad more heated than it needs to. Please take a moment to step back, collect yourself, and consider if these small points of semantics are worth it before responding.

[Alrik Vas]

Regardless of facts about lasers, it's cutting things in two, chopping down trees. Not the most quiet of weapons.

I rather think mega-damage infantry weapons greatest design flaw is the fact that they do mega-damage.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

No. Untill you have a laser rifle you do NOT know how a laser rifle will react. Because.. you don't have a laser rifle. You can try and dance around it, but the fact is we do NOT have laser rifles. Nor do we have lasers where you pull a trigger, and a Laser blasts a mega damage type blast.

Yes we have weapons, as pointed out that if you point them at a missile, can heat it up till it explodes. But that's not the same way.

All you have is speculation on how you THINK A laser weapon will work. No 'facts'. You can speculate, guess, estimate, but you don't "Know". Acting like you know how a fictional sci fi, mega damage weapon will work, is amusing.

It is not the rifle that causes the affect but the laser. A lasers affect is not set by the size and type of the projector but the beam it shoots. So you only need the ability to create the beam to determine the affect. People here have done the math on the amount of power per shot from a laser rifle. We can also use references on pulse to determine
the duration of said beam.

Science does have hard facts on how lasers affect targets so it is possible to determine the affects of a laser rifle based off the beam even without a rifle.

If we are going to use Sci fi clause then it works how the books tell us it does, if you going to use real life It works like it has been determined to by science. How lasers work is known making a smaller projector does not change how lasers or light work.

(I never claimed I know but said the information does exist and you can not say that people do not know how they work, because they lack a laser rifle. That is flawed logic, because it is not the rifle but the laser beam that does the damage so you only need the ability to make laser beams capable of delivering damage.)

And we do not have laser beams that can do the damage of the rifles in Rifts so regardless of it being a rifts laser rifles or 12 warehouses to produce a beam the equivalent of a rifts laser rifle as long as we do not have the rifle... Or a way to produce its capabilities then we can not say and saying that we can is wrong. Someone with a laser pointer can not say they know what sounds a laser scalpel makes. A person with a laser scalpel can not claim they know about the PHAZER less than lethal combat laser (which is the one that is illegal by Geneva convention because it blinds) and those who have fired a PHAZER can't say they know about the SDI/anti missile lasers. And NONE can say they know the sound of a mega laser striking an MDC structure sounds like. It hasn't been built and the sounds and everything else don't simply scale with lasers. So... Since you don't have an MDC Rifle and the object of an MDC nature to test them on NO ONE can claim they REALLY know what the super miniaturized power plant sounds like or anything else. We IRL do NOT have an equivalent.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

Wait what is LOW and why are lasers again it?

Laws of War.
International laws to cover wars, based off the Geneva convention.
Anti personal laser weapons are banned because they where determined to cause needless suffering. A clause not assigned to traditional fire arms. To create such a clause means some one did research on how different types and strength lasers would affect humans. Other banned weapons include but not limited to hollow point ammo, chemical weapons, biological weapons, barbed blades.

Who the heck doesn't refer to it as the Geneva Convention? The GC has BLINDING lasers as illegal NOT laser weapons. Just like MW weapons are illegal because the first thing they do is blind. Apparently blinding someone is worse than killing or dismembering them.

[Blue_Lion]

I'm not trolling. I pointed out 'Untill you have a laser rifle...." And your reply were that they were real. I might point out that your "Just because you don't understand how they work and are unwilling to learn doesn't change the fact" likely falls under trolling and a personal attack.

Are laser rifles real? No. They're not. Sure 'lasers' are real. I have my cat chase one around the room all the time. Ship based lasers that focus on things for long amounts of time to damage them are real.

But man portable laser rifles are not. Your statement side stepped my point, and quite on purpose. I'm not talking about something you have to mount on a battleship or hummer. I'm talking about a laser rifle. You carry it in your hands. It's the size of a AR15, pull the trigger, click, and a laser shoots out and lases something down range doing damage from that one quarter second pull of the trigger. Pew pew pew.

They don't exist. (As of yet) So, anything you "THINK" Might happen, is speculation. There's been what 14 years of Mythbusters, testing things that people THINK work an THINK happen and more often than not they don't happen the way people say they do, or common belief thinks they do. (Some do. For sure, but most times it's 'busted')

Trying to talk down to people as if you KNoooooooooooooooooow what a blast from a laser rifle would do, and they're stupid if they don't agree with you doesn't make you some sort of expert. These are toys from science fiction. It's the same as trying to imply you KNOOOOOOOOOOW what a light saber does. You can specualte. You can have hypothetical explinations and theories, but untill you have a laser rifle or a light saber you don't KNOW anything.

You are completely and utterly wrong in that statement. We only need a laser with a beam of approximately the same size delivering the same amount of energy in the same amount of time to know the affects. The size of the projector is irrelevant to the affect on the target in this case. What is important is the concentration of energy, the time it takes to be transferred to the target and the physical make up of the target.

The affects of lasers as weapons is known. Your whole the only way to know what a laser rifle will do is have one is a false premise. (As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.) He did not ignore or side step your you need a laser rifle he flat said the affects of lasers are known and they are.

Wait what is LOW and why are lasers again it?

Laws of War.
International laws to cover wars, based off the Geneva convention.
Anti personal laser weapons are banned because they where determined to cause needless suffering. A clause not assigned to traditional fire arms. To create such a clause means some one did research on how different types and strength lasers would affect humans. Other banned weapons include but not limited to hollow point ammo, chemical weapons, biological weapons, barbed blades.

Who the heck doesn't refer to it as the Geneva Convention? The GC has BLINDING lasers as illegal NOT laser weapons. Just like MW weapons are illegal because the first thing they do is blind. Apparently blinding someone is worse than killing or dismembering them.

The mandatory class on LoW I took in the army had a said anti personal weapons where banned by LoW.

[eliakon]

<snip>
(As it is a violation of L.O.W. it is not likely to have much money spent developing it.)
<snip>

Wait what is LOW and why are lasers again it?

Laws of War.
International laws to cover wars, based off the Geneva convention.
Anti personal laser weapons are banned because they where determined to cause needless suffering. A clause not assigned to traditional fire arms. To create such a clause means some one did research on how different types and strength lasers would affect humans. Other banned weapons include but not limited to hollow point ammo, chemical weapons, biological weapons, barbed blades.

Who the heck doesn't refer to it as the Geneva Convention? The GC has BLINDING lasers as illegal NOT laser weapons. Just like MW weapons are illegal because the first thing they do is blind. Apparently blinding someone is worse than killing or dismembering them.

The mandatory class on LoW I took in the army had a said anti personal weapons where banned by LoW.

Can you cite the statue, convention, treaty, or even DoD regulation banning the use of anti-personal lasers?
The one I linked is protocol IV of the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May Be Deemed to Be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate Effects ....
....but it is explicitly The Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons and says not a word about lasers being illegal to use on people or equipment or any other purpose other than that they may not be designed to cause permanent blinding. In fact it specifically says

Article 3
Blinding as an incidental or collateral effect of the legitimate military employment of laser systems, including laser systems used against optical equipment, is not covered by the prohibition of this Protocol.

This is pretty important since
1) Many militaries (including the US Army) use Dazzler weapons specifically because they fall outside of the treaty
and
2) The USS Ponce has been equipped with a laser weapon since 2014

If the law has changed recently to outlaw all laser and/or all directed energy weapons then that would of course change the nature of the discussion. But as of right now the publicly available information I can find on the treaty status of such devices is that energy weapons that are not otherwise banned (i.e. blinding) are permitted.

A second point to consider would be that even weapons that are banned for war time use under the Geneva Conventions still have vast usage in many fields. CS/CS gas, nausea gas, and anesthetic gas are all banned by the chemical weapons convention by use on the battle field, but they have very large law enforcement roles


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventio ... al_Weapons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_ ... er_Weapons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazer_Laser

[Jefffar]

Since we can't seem to get back on track.