How to sneak mages/SNBs past Psi-Stalkers into CS territory

[Tor]

Since it's too late to bump viewtopic.php?f=8&t=43086 which is over a decade old, made a new one.

Step 1: acquire chicken
Step 2: barbecue chicken
Step 3: eat chicken
Step 4: cast level 1 spell "Bone and Joint Bonding" (Mystic Russia 92) so that the leftover bones can hold its corpse/skeletal form
Step 5: tie chicken corpse around neck
Step 6: cast level 2 spell "Hide Among the Dead" (Mystic Russia 93)

Now you (or another target) are hidden from all devices or magic or psionic detection. Effectiveness is greatly reduced if you move yourself, so it is ideal if you have a non-magic non-supernatural ally to cart you around.

[flatline]

Do players seriously have trouble geting mages and supernatural beings into CS territory?

the Burbs are, canonically, teaming with mages and supernatural beings, so how hard can it be?

[Proseksword]

Are we talking about sneaking into a CS State, sneaking into Chi-Town proper, or sneaking into one of the fortified basement or upper levels? As described in the source material, those seem to be entirely different levels of difficulty.

[flatline]

Are we talking about sneaking into a CS State, sneaking into Chi-Town proper, or sneaking into one of the fortified basement or upper levels? As described in the source material, those seem to be entirely different levels of difficulty.

I didn't read the referred thread, but when I see the words "CS Territory", I assume you're just talking about crossing the "borders" into land claimed (and possibly patrolled and defended) by the CS.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Step 1: Learn the spell Mystic Invisibility, available to any class that casts standard invocations
Step 2: cast this spell

Now you can go wherever you want.

Optional Step 3: use permanency ward to make this spell permanent. Now you can never be detected by mystical means and the spell will even hide the ward itself as long as you wear a shirt to cover it.

[Blue_Lion]

As I under stand it is just the high PPE that dog boys and psi stalkers detect in mortal mages. Meaning if the mage has no or low PPE when you need to cross a CS check point no mage. (originally even charged TW items did not get detected if it was not active so that could be a way to dump PPE unless they changed it.)

Option B teleport past the patrols to your destination.

(using spells from Russia seams out of place as they are not common in NA.)

With care you can dodge most patrols and it is not a big issue to worry about as by cannon there are mages and dbees living right outside the CS capital. (it can happen but not your biggest threat while traveling.) Why so many topics about getting past Cs boarders

[Tor]

Doesn't say anything about draining your PPE allowing you to be scentless.

I guess it's not so much territory but secured locations, Chi-Town being an example.

Getting the psi-implant that gives you Nega-Psychic powers would also I think protect mages from being sensed.

One way around the whole mystic invisibility / nega-psychic / hide amongst the dead trick is to use a tech-based means of sensing. These things only guard you against magic/psychic ways.

The usually-inferior CS Psi-Scanner (Psyscape page 155) would be one example. It explicitly works on Psi-Nullifiers, at the very least. Not totally sure on Nega-Psychics since they might be considered more closed, but they don't have anything about protecting against tech so I don't see why they'd be excepted. It'd work, but being limited to 4ft ranges with 1/2 a chance of accuracy would probably allow you to get past the chokepoints using mundane skills.

Course that only tells you if they have psi, so you'd still have to take added steps to uncovery who has magical abilities or is a supernatural being. You'd need to remove their psi-implant or permanence ward or wait out duration for that to work, I think.

[Blue_Lion]

Doesn't say anything about draining your PPE allowing you to be scentless.

I guess it's not so much territory but secured locations, Chi-Town being an example.

Getting the psi-implant that gives you Nega-Psychic powers would also I think protect mages from being sensed.

One way around the whole mystic invisibility / nega-psychic / hide amongst the dead trick is to use a tech-based means of sensing. These things only guard you against magic/psychic ways.

The usually-inferior CS Psi-Scanner (Psyscape page 155) would be one example. It explicitly works on Psi-Nullifiers, at the very least. Not totally sure on Nega-Psychics since they might be considered more closed, but they don't have anything about protecting against tech so I don't see why they'd be excepted. It'd work, but being limited to 4ft ranges with 1/2 a chance of accuracy would probably allow you to get past the chokepoints using mundane skills.

Course that only tells you if they have psi, so you'd still have to take added steps to uncovery who has magical abilities or is a supernatural being. You'd need to remove their psi-implant or permanence ward or wait out duration for that to work, I think.

It is the high PPE they use to detect mages. With a low PPE they would smell as much as they would from any other normal human they sense. They can sense the energy and trace it to an individual, with every one having low level PPE that would not draw there notice. Would not work for demons or other supernatural but for mortal mages. (Power 1 on page 153 of rue says it is the PPE or ISP they sense.) It says they will sense psi from minor major or masters enters a room but never says they can tell what it is but they can track specific sense. As power 1 is the only one they can use to track mages it requires the mage has PPE or ISP for that power to track them.

Simply put it is the presence of energy (PPE) they sense not the mage. They may be able to track it to the mage but that requires the mage have it to be tracked.

Pg 153 RUE
"Sense psychic and magic energy: Like a blood hound smelling a familiar scent, the psi-stalker can detect the presence of psychic energy, specifically fellow psionic (ISP) and magic and supernatural (both with high PPE)."

[Tor]

That parenthesis is a generalization which doesn't appear to affect the mechanics of the ability. You can be temporarily or permanently at 0 PPE and you would still register as a mage or supernatural being.

If expended or sacrificed PPE affected the sensing then we would be told mechanics for it, like what % you need to be at, or how many points.

Only if you have a spell which specifically prevents this (like Transferal) could you avoid the detection.

If I recall that spell lowers you to something like 4 PPE so I could appreciate as a house rule allowing someone who is permanently at 4 or lower to similarly be unsniffable.

Allowing someone temporarily that low to sneak past Psi-Stalkers creates a lot of problems, since they could just nap in the walls of Chi-Town and suddenly be lobbing spells. It would be even worse in the old days when you could decently siphon PPE off folks. That got neutered some in RUE so it wouldn't be as big a deal to let temporarily-low PPE folks past though.

[Blue_Lion]

That parenthesis is a generalization which doesn't appear to affect the mechanics of the ability. You can be temporarily or permanently at 0 PPE and you would still register as a mage or supernatural being.

If expended or sacrificed PPE affected the sensing then we would be told mechanics for it, like what % you need to be at, or how many points.

Only if you have a spell which specifically prevents this (like Transferal) could you avoid the detection.

If I recall that spell lowers you to something like 4 PPE so I could appreciate as a house rule allowing someone who is permanently at 4 or lower to similarly be unsniffable.

Allowing someone temporarily that low to sneak past Psi-Stalkers creates a lot of problems, since they could just nap in the walls of Chi-Town and suddenly be lobbing spells. It would be even worse in the old days when you could decently siphon PPE off folks. That got neutered some in RUE so it wouldn't be as big a deal to let temporarily-low PPE folks past though.

The power never says it detects mages it says it detects psionic energy. You seam to be confusing what the mechanic does with what you think it does, they just say it detects magic and supernatural do to high PPE but never says what high is. A mage is not magic but a person with high ppe that can shape magic. So your statement that it detects mages is in direct conflict with the text. (The power never says it detects mages) supernatural is covered by power 2. The power is to sense the energy is listed as a mechanic to detect energy not mages. But please if you have a quote of the power saying it detects mages present it.

Your chi town statement is false flag defense. after all there is a waiting list (that takes years) and investigation to get into chi town. So this will not get a mage into chi town but could get mage past a patrol or check point.

[dragonfett]

That parenthesis is a generalization which doesn't appear to affect the mechanics of the ability. You can be temporarily or permanently at 0 PPE and you would still register as a mage or supernatural being.

If expended or sacrificed PPE affected the sensing then we would be told mechanics for it, like what % you need to be at, or how many points.

Only if you have a spell which specifically prevents this (like Transferal) could you avoid the detection.

If I recall that spell lowers you to something like 4 PPE so I could appreciate as a house rule allowing someone who is permanently at 4 or lower to similarly be unsniffable.

Allowing someone temporarily that low to sneak past Psi-Stalkers creates a lot of problems, since they could just nap in the walls of Chi-Town and suddenly be lobbing spells. It would be even worse in the old days when you could decently siphon PPE off folks. That got neutered some in RUE so it wouldn't be as big a deal to let temporarily-low PPE folks past though.

The power never says it detects mages it says it detects psionic energy. You seam to be confusing what the mechanic does with what you think it does, they just say it detects magic and supernatural do to high PPE but never says what high is. A mage is not magic but a person with high ppe that can shape magic. So your statement that it detects mages is in direct conflict with the text. (The power never says it detects mages) supernatural is covered by power 2. The power is to sense the energy is listed as a mechanic to detect energy not mages. But please if you have a quote of the power saying it detects mages present it.

Your chi town statement is false flag defense. after all there is a waiting list (that takes years) and investigation to get into chi town. So this will not get a mage into chi town but could get mage past a patrol or check point.

I thought that non citizens could acquire a short term pass (sort of like a foreigner getting a visa to come to the USA for brief periods of time). One would presume that the amount of time to acquire a short term pass is far quicker than becoming a citizen. Not to mention getting a forgery...

[Tor]

The problem is without an exact amount, we have no idea when it is a PPE-deprived mage could supposedly be immune.

Would this same logic apply to ISP-deprived psychics?

In the very least, the thing which allows either to sneak into Chi-Town (the actual use of spells/powers) I hope we can agree would set off detectors.

I think the issue is my understanding of mages was formed from the 1990 RMB and may not yet be updated to reflect yet another RUE retcon.

Pg 153 RUE
"Sense psychic and magic energy: Like a blood hound smelling a familiar scent, the psi-stalker can detect the presence of psychic energy, specifically fellow psionic (ISP) and magic and supernatural (both with high PPE)."

When ability 1 was defined for the Psi-Stalker in RMB p 105, it mostly said the same thing, but the end was different:

psychic energy; specifically fellows psionics (I.S.P.) and magic (P.P.E. specifically oriented toward magic, techno-wizardry, and wizardry devices)

The explanation of "high" PPE was not originally present, only that magic meant having PPE oriented toward magic. So even a LLW with 1 PPE would still count. RMB still left 0 PPE up for grabs I guess.

Wasn't utterly clear if it meant 'total PPE' or 'current PPE' either.

[Blue_Lion]

The problem is without an exact amount, we have no idea when it is a PPE-deprived mage could supposedly be immune.

Would this same logic apply to ISP-deprived psychics?

In the very least, the thing which allows either to sneak into Chi-Town (the actual use of spells/powers) I hope we can agree would set off detectors.

I think the issue is my understanding of mages was formed from the 1990 RMB and may not yet be updated to reflect yet another RUE retcon.

Pg 153 RUE
"Sense psychic and magic energy: Like a blood hound smelling a familiar scent, the psi-stalker can detect the presence of psychic energy, specifically fellow psionic (ISP) and magic and supernatural (both with high PPE)."

When ability 1 was defined for the Psi-Stalker in RMB p 105, it mostly said the same thing, but the end was different:

psychic energy; specifically fellows psionics (I.S.P.) and magic (P.P.E. specifically oriented toward magic, techno-wizardry, and wizardry devices)

The explanation of "high" PPE was not originally present, only that magic meant having PPE oriented toward magic. So even a LLW with 1 PPE would still count. RMB still left 0 PPE up for grabs I guess.

Wasn't utterly clear if it meant 'total PPE' or 'current PPE' either.

It is the energy they are detecting so yes. They detect psionics by the presence of is of isp, now the levels might be different as any isp is only present in psi while every one has ppe. (for the record I was aware of the original as well but was going with the most updated one.) So a mage might be able to fool them by dropping his PPE down to below 12 the PPE an adult should have while the psi would need to drop down to 0, but then again if you use the full history then a mage would need to drop it down to 0.

The real draw back of attempting this is if things go side ways the mage has no PPE while in close proximity to CS forces. The mage would likely feel very exposed trying this as would a mind melter. It is a gamble sure you could fool the psi-stalker but if anything goes wrong the mage is up the creek. Plus the issue of needing to dump PPE.

[Tor]

Insert 'convert chi to PPE' calligraphy

[ShadowLogan]

Spells:
-Transferral (move the PPE), BOM pg132
-Travel in physical plane via Astral Projection (spell or Psi) to find your destination and then Teleport/Rift directly there as you've been there
-Domination or Charm (both only effective w/lone individual)
-Charismatic Aura
-Invisibility: Superior (possibly)

Psionic Powers:
-Alter Aura
-Mask PPE (RUE pg174, Psi-Stalkers are specifically identified as vulnerable to it)

Additionally:
-travel by air, underground tunnels, underwater
-bribery
-take the 'back way' where there aren't checkpoints
-Ley Lines that cross CS territory can be exploited by Ley Line Phasing (anyone w/the Ley Line Walker ability)
-have an acceptable person travel with you that has your "papers"

[Blue_Lion]

Insert 'convert chi to PPE' calligraphy

Would that not show up as a magical item? As I understand it you are referring to the chi spells and the written spell that when burned cast the spell.

[Tor]

In most cases since all other chi spells use PPE, I would guess so, but Chi to PPE can be cast purely with chi even if you're at 0 PPE so I don't know if it would necessarily show up.

The "Inscribe Celestial Calligraphy" spell says "PPE is expended twice" and "the caster must add in the PPE required for ths stored spell" so I don't know if that perhaps forces you to use the PPE option instead of the chi option.

The Tao Shih Immortalist's PCC ability mentions no such restrictions though, so I think they could store a chi-fueled version and create the calligraphy without expending any PPE whatsoever.

[Blue_Lion]

In most cases since all other chi spells use PPE, I would guess so, but Chi to PPE can be cast purely with chi even if you're at 0 PPE so I don't know if it would necessarily show up.

The "Inscribe Celestial Calligraphy" spell says "PPE is expended twice" and "the caster must add in the PPE required for ths stored spell" so I don't know if that perhaps forces you to use the PPE option instead of the chi option.

The Tao Shih Immortalist's PCC ability mentions no such restrictions though, so I think they could store a chi-fueled version and create the calligraphy without expending any PPE whatsoever.

It is an odd spell it only cost if I recall is all your chi. Not a spell available to most mages, but I guess the gm will need to determine if it counts as a magic and can be sensed. Not worth dragging this into a debate on if psi-stalkers could track chi and chi magic.

[eliakon]

In most cases since all other chi spells use PPE, I would guess so, but Chi to PPE can be cast purely with chi even if you're at 0 PPE so I don't know if it would necessarily show up.

The "Inscribe Celestial Calligraphy" spell says "PPE is expended twice" and "the caster must add in the PPE required for ths stored spell" so I don't know if that perhaps forces you to use the PPE option instead of the chi option.

The Tao Shih Immortalist's PCC ability mentions no such restrictions though, so I think they could store a chi-fueled version and create the calligraphy without expending any PPE whatsoever.

It is an odd spell it only cost if I recall is all your chi. Not a spell available to most mages, but I guess the gm will need to determine if it counts as a magic and can be sensed. Not worth dragging this into a debate on if psi-stalkers could track chi and chi magic.

Magic is magic
The spell Convert Chi to PPE turns some of the casters Chi into PPE. It does not 'power a spell with Chi' it simply provides another source of PPE. Just like the spell Life Source does not power a spell with Hit Points, but provides a source of PPE drawn from Hit Points.

Short answer: Psi Stalkers can track Chi Magic, as it is magic. Tracking Chi is solidly in the area of "Ask your GM".

(If we really want to have a detailed discussion of Chi Magic in Rifts I would be happy to discuss it in PMs, or a thread specifically on that subject)

[Tor]

Even supposing that a Chi>PPE spell-scroll did trigger senses once it is cast (via burning the calligraphy) is there reason to think it would radiate magic prior to being activated? If not then a single Immortalist could mass-produce these to give to mages so they could get PPE whenever they needed to.

Although I'm a bit unclear who decides how much... like even if you have no experience with chi, you can still choose how much? Or if you are inexperienced, it's all? In which case you're at 0 and won't heal until you restore chi? Plus N*SS/MC aren't consistent about whether you can regen chi from 0.

[eliakon]

Even supposing that a Chi>PPE spell-scroll did trigger senses once it is cast (via burning the calligraphy) is there reason to think it would radiate magic prior to being activated? If not then a single Immortalist could mass-produce these to give to mages so they could get PPE whenever they needed to.

Considering that the description of the Calligraphy is that they have the magic and PPE bound up in them (and can be sensed as magical by those who know what to look for), and that they are more detectable than other items that are also explicitly magical that have less energy in them....
I would say that yes, they are a magic item just like a scroll, and would detect the same way as they are both the same thing (Spells stored in written form). The paper does not cast the spell, it releases the already cast spell that is in storage.

Although I'm a bit unclear who decides how much... like even if you have no experience with chi, you can still choose how much? Or if you are inexperienced, it's all? In which case you're at 0 and won't heal until you restore chi? Plus N*SS/MC aren't consistent about whether you can regen chi from 0.

The spell says "Unless the character releasing the spell is properly prepared (i.e. trained and ready to direct the spell), then ALL the characters Chi will be converted into P.P.E."

So the answer is "You need proper training" AND you need to be ready to direct the spell, both. The level of that training is not specified and would therefore be up to the individual GM to determine for their own game.

[Tor]

Getting back to the more available scrolls, does it talk anywhere about them being sensible as an active spell being cast?

[eliakon]

Getting back to the more available scrolls, does it talk anywhere about them being sensible as an active spell being cast?

"Because the paper or parchment has been charged with P.P.E. ..."
So the paper would register as a PPE source (it contains the PPE needed to cast the spell)

[Blue_Lion]

Getting back to the more available scrolls, does it talk anywhere about them being sensible as an active spell being cast?

It does say that they have a greater range for active powers/spells. So an active spell dealing with PPE(using most the time but making seams reasonable as well) it would fallow under that.