Minions

[Leo H]

So we've been discussing the difference between a Minion and an actual slave. So here's the rub, there's a LOT of space between the Elite minions and the slave on the chart in the Atlantis book. The Elite Minions have autonomy and are trusted to have the Splugorth's best interest in mind. As you go further down the chart each level down from there has more rules to follow and much less autonomy. Eventually the actual slave class is reached on the chart. So, the discussion has been are the minions slaves or servants? We've been focusing on the Kittani specifically in our conversations. They have a LOT of rules they have to follow and can't learn magic at all. Anyone caught trying to learn magic is executed. All of them serve the Splugorth. So, does that make them valued servants or slaves with some privileges?

[Library Ogre]

Yes.

They are slaves, but they're also valued servants. They are tools that the Splugorth can use... but also discard or destroy if they don't do as they're supposed to. They're not viewed as quite the animals some lesser slaves may be, but that doesn't change their slavery.

[eliakon]

So we've been discussing the difference between a Minion and an actual slave. So here's the rub, there's a LOT of space between the Elite minions and the slave on the chart in the Atlantis book. The Elite Minions have autonomy and are trusted to have the Splugorth's best interest in mind. As you go further down the chart each level down from there has more rules to follow and much less autonomy. Eventually the actual slave class is reached on the chart. So, the discussion has been are the minions slaves or servants? We've been focusing on the Kittani specifically in our conversations. They have a LOT of rules they have to follow and can't learn magic at all. Anyone caught trying to learn magic is executed. All of them serve the Splugorth. So, does that make them valued servants or slaves with some privileges?

Any human learning magic in the CS is executed.
All humans have to follow strict rules regarding property they can own, where they can live, what they can do

Therefore all humans are the slaves of Emperor Prosek?
I don't buy it, and I don't buy that Kittani are slaves.

They are minions yes but it is like a feudal society. There is an all powerful king (Splugorth) at the top from which all power descends.
This king invests some of their authority in their nobles, who invest some of that in sub-nobles, who invest all the way down to the peasants and slaves.

But it does not mean that the nobles are slaves, just that the actual slaves are slaves.

[glitterboy2098]

It might be worth looking at the forms of slavery found in eastern societies to help define things. Things like the jannisaries for example would fit the mold in terms of social status. Powerful, important, but still slaves for all their political power within the society.
Likewise the difference between servitors and the various classes and levels of slaves in ancient china post-tang dynasty, where quite a few of the important and powerful officials were also slaves, etc.

In eastern societies slavery was an amorphous concept, and often valued for how it kept powerful officials on a leash politically.

[taalismn]

It might be worth looking at the forms of slavery found in eastern societies to help define things. Things like the jannisaries for example would fit the mold in terms of social status. Powerful, important, but still slaves for all their political power within the society.
Likewise the difference between servitors and the various classes and levels of slaves in ancient china post-tang dynasty, where quite a few of the important and powerful officials were also slaves, etc.

In eastern societies slavery was an amorphous concept, and often valued for how it kept powerful officials on a leash politically.

The Janissaries also become slaves of their own influence and arrogance....so in 1826 Mahmud II finally literally gave them the chomp after they became so swaggering in their power they were deposing their sultans rather than allow any reforms that would marginalize them.

[glitterboy2098]

True, but they are an example. As are the mamluks, the booi aha and imperial household of of china, and several other groups.

[taalismn]

True, but they are an example. As are the mamluks, the booi aha and imperial household of of china, and several other groups.

Hey, the eunuchs had to have SOME outlet for all that frustration. Political power games seems to have done the trick, for a while at least.

[Nekira Sudacne]

To me it's pretty simple. A slave is defined as "Property who can be bought and sold and must do as they are told". Minions only meet part of that definition. They have to do what they are told, but they cannot be bought, sold, or traded amoung splurgorth or anyone else. thus by definition they cannot be slaves.

They are much closer to Serfs.

[Leo H]

To me it's pretty simple. A slave is defined as "Property who can be bought and sold and must do as they are told". Minions only meet part of that definition. They have to do what they are told, but they cannot be bought, sold, or traded amoung splurgorth or anyone else. thus by definition they cannot be slaves.

They are much closer to Serfs.

Maybe the word vassal would work in place of Minion?

[Ed]

To me it's pretty simple. A slave is defined as "Property who can be bought and sold and must do as they are told". Minions only meet part of that definition. They have to do what they are told, but they cannot be bought, sold, or traded amoung splurgorth or anyone else. thus by definition they cannot be slaves.

They are much closer to Serfs.

Why would you claim they cannot be bought, sold or traded? If, by definition, the Splugorth are all powerful in their society, all powerful would include the ability to buy/sell/trade anyone they hold power over. In other words, the Kitanni.

[Ed]

So we've been discussing the difference between a Minion and an actual slave. So here's the rub, there's a LOT of space between the Elite minions and the slave on the chart in the Atlantis book. The Elite Minions have autonomy and are trusted to have the Splugorth's best interest in mind. As you go further down the chart each level down from there has more rules to follow and much less autonomy. Eventually the actual slave class is reached on the chart. So, the discussion has been are the minions slaves or servants? We've been focusing on the Kittani specifically in our conversations. They have a LOT of rules they have to follow and can't learn magic at all. Anyone caught trying to learn magic is executed. All of them serve the Splugorth. So, does that make them valued servants or slaves with some privileges?

Any human learning magic in the CS is executed.

Not so. There are numerous examples to the contrary; the Vanguard, Colonel Lyboc's black ops, and the Siege of Tolkeen to name only three. Per the Black Vault sourcebook, the Black Eagles (the premier CS anti-magic direct action force) don't shoot on sight.

All humans have to follow strict rules regarding property they can own, where they can live, what they can do

Source? And be sure to reconcile the large numbers of humans voluntarily leaving the CS and dis-obeying their laws against the 38,000 year history of the Kitanni servitude.

Therefore all humans are the slaves of Emperor Prosek?

Therefore, that particular argument is a poorly constructed strawman.

I don't buy it, and I don't buy that Kittani are slaves.

They are minions yes but it is like a feudal society. There is an all powerful king (Splugorth) at the top from which all power descends.

Right so far.

This king invests some of their authority in their nobles, who invest some of that in sub-nobles, who invest all the way down to the peasants and slaves.

Again, right so far.

But it does not mean that the nobles are slaves, just that the actual slaves are slaves.

If the nobles derive all their power and authority from the above rank, why can't the above rank revoke their power and authority? What makes that situation different from slavery?

[Nekira Sudacne]

To me it's pretty simple. A slave is defined as "Property who can be bought and sold and must do as they are told". Minions only meet part of that definition. They have to do what they are told, but they cannot be bought, sold, or traded amoung splurgorth or anyone else. thus by definition they cannot be slaves.

They are much closer to Serfs.

Why would you claim they cannot be bought, sold or traded? If, by definition, the Splugorth are all powerful in their society, all powerful would include the ability to buy/sell/trade anyone they hold power over. In other words, the Kitanni.

Why would you claim they are, when there is absolutely nothing in any book to suggest it? Minions being slaves was your claim starting in the thread this one was spun off from, the burden of proof is on you.

[Ed]

To me it's pretty simple. A slave is defined as "Property who can be bought and sold and must do as they are told". Minions only meet part of that definition. They have to do what they are told, but they cannot be bought, sold, or traded amoung splurgorth or anyone else. thus by definition they cannot be slaves.

They are much closer to Serfs.

Why would you claim they cannot be bought, sold or traded? If, by definition, the Splugorth are all powerful in their society, all powerful would include the ability to buy/sell/trade anyone they hold power over. In other words, the Kitanni.

Why would you claim they are, when there is absolutely nothing in any book to suggest it? Minions being slaves was your claim starting in the thread this one was spun off from, the burden of proof is on you.

The Splugorth being all powerful within their society would, by necessity, possess the power to buy/sell/trade any asset under their control. Kitanni are an asset under Splugorth control. The burden to prove the Splugorth are not all powerful within their society or that the Kitanni are not an asset under Splugorth control would be yours.

[Nekira Sudacne]

To me it's pretty simple. A slave is defined as "Property who can be bought and sold and must do as they are told". Minions only meet part of that definition. They have to do what they are told, but they cannot be bought, sold, or traded amoung splurgorth or anyone else. thus by definition they cannot be slaves.

They are much closer to Serfs.

Why would you claim they cannot be bought, sold or traded? If, by definition, the Splugorth are all powerful in their society, all powerful would include the ability to buy/sell/trade anyone they hold power over. In other words, the Kitanni.

Why would you claim they are, when there is absolutely nothing in any book to suggest it? Minions being slaves was your claim starting in the thread this one was spun off from, the burden of proof is on you.

The Splugorth being all powerful within their society would, by necessity, possess the power to buy/sell/trade any asset under their control. Kitanni are an asset under Splugorth control. The burden to prove the Splugorth are not all powerful within their society or that the Kitanni are not an asset under Splugorth control would be yours.

The status of being a slave is not retroactive. the fact a splurgorth might enslave somebody in the future dosn't make them a slave now. Same goes for all the other races. Sure, a Slaver might come to your village and enslave you in the future, because you don't have the power to stop them, but you are not a slave until they actually do so.

by the same logic, the fact a splurgoth might choose to enslave his own minions might make them slaves in the future, but it does not make them slaves now, and nothing suggests it has been done.

[Tor]

The chart explicitly distinguishing between slave and minion I think puts the burden of proof on finding sources to those who would call the minions slaves. There could well be some text supporting that if they want to look =/

[Ed]

The status of being a slave is not retroactive. the fact a splurgorth might enslave somebody in the future dosn't make them a slave now. Same goes for all the other races. Sure, a Slaver might come to your village and enslave you in the future, because you don't have the power to stop them, but you are not a slave until they actually do so.

by the same logic, the fact a splurgoth might choose to enslave his own minions might make them slaves in the future, but it does not make them slaves now, and nothing suggests it has been done.

The Kitanni were enslaved 38,000 years ago. Any status they might have achieved in the interim was conveyed by the Splugorth, and can be revoked as easily. Comparing that status with someone not in the power of the Splugorth is apples to oranges, at best.

[Ed]

The chart explicitly distinguishing between slave and minion I think puts the burden of proof on finding sources to those who would call the minions slaves. There could well be some text supporting that if they want to look =/

Please define the difference between a minion and a slave in the context of Splugorth society.

[eliakon]

The chart explicitly distinguishing between slave and minion I think puts the burden of proof on finding sources to those who would call the minions slaves. There could well be some text supporting that if they want to look =/

Please define the difference between a minion and a slave in the context of Splugorth society.

We have.
It seems that they have a specific definition of what they call a slave, (their listed slaves), and that if you are not a slave, and you serve the Splugorth then you are a minion of some sort.

To repeat though
From Dictonary.com Slave: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
Mariam Webster Slave: : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

Thus the Kitanni who do seem to be allowed some self determinations (not wholly subject to another's will) and do receive some compensation are not slaves.
They are Vassals certainly, They definitely can not quit, but neither are they full slaves.
Sort of like who States in the United States are not Slaves of the federal Government, but they are not allowed to leave either.


I would like to know your definition of the word slave, and why you are insisting that anyone who works for the Splugorth must be a slave to work for them.

[Leo H]

The chart explicitly distinguishing between slave and minion I think puts the burden of proof on finding sources to those who would call the minions slaves. There could well be some text supporting that if they want to look =/

Please define the difference between a minion and a slave in the context of Splugorth society.

We have.
It seems that they have a specific definition of what they call a slave, (their listed slaves), and that if you are not a slave, and you serve the Splugorth then you are a minion of some sort.

To repeat though
From Dictonary.com Slave: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
Mariam Webster Slave: : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

Thus the Kitanni who do seem to be allowed some self determinations (not wholly subject to another's will) and do receive some compensation are not slaves.
They are Vassals certainly, They definitely can not quit, but neither are they full slaves.
Sort of like who States in the United States are not Slaves of the federal Government, but they are not allowed to leave either.


I would like to know your definition of the word slave, and why you are insisting that anyone who works for the Splugorth must be a slave to work for them.

For me, one of the greatest differences is self determination. The Splugorth have an entire race of people who serve them (and only them) in perpetuity. Anybody who won't serve the Splugorth is considered a renegade and hunted down to be destroyed or locked up as the LOWEST level slave. Yes, a free society has rules but as a citizen you can leave most societies if you choose to or disagree with the policies of that government. So if there is NO self determination then how can a person be anything other than a slave of some sort? Sure you can put levels and benefits on it but a slave is a slave is a slave.

[Ed]

The chart explicitly distinguishing between slave and minion I think puts the burden of proof on finding sources to those who would call the minions slaves. There could well be some text supporting that if they want to look =/

Please define the difference between a minion and a slave in the context of Splugorth society.

We have.
It seems that they have a specific definition of what they call a slave, (their listed slaves), and that if you are not a slave, and you serve the Splugorth then you are a minion of some sort.

To repeat though
From Dictonary.com Slave: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
Mariam Webster Slave: : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

Thus the Kitanni who do seem to be allowed some self determinations (not wholly subject to another's will) and do receive some compensation are not slaves.
They are Vassals certainly, They definitely can not quit, but neither are they full slaves.
Sort of like who States in the United States are not Slaves of the federal Government, but they are not allowed to leave either.


I would like to know your definition of the word slave, and why you are insisting that anyone who works for the Splugorth must be a slave to work for them.

For me, one of the greatest differences is self determination. The Splugorth have an entire race of people who serve them (and only them) in perpetuity. Anybody who won't serve the Splugorth is considered a renegade and hunted down to be destroyed or locked up as the LOWEST level slave. Yes, a free society has rules but as a citizen you can leave most societies if you choose to or disagree with the policies of that government. So if there is NO self determination then how can a person be anything other than a slave of some sort? Sure you can put levels and benefits on it but a slave is a slave is a slave.

We have a winner. A minion is a slave with privileges.

[eliakon]

The chart explicitly distinguishing between slave and minion I think puts the burden of proof on finding sources to those who would call the minions slaves. There could well be some text supporting that if they want to look =/

Please define the difference between a minion and a slave in the context of Splugorth society.

We have.
It seems that they have a specific definition of what they call a slave, (their listed slaves), and that if you are not a slave, and you serve the Splugorth then you are a minion of some sort.

To repeat though
From Dictonary.com Slave: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
Mariam Webster Slave: : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

Thus the Kitanni who do seem to be allowed some self determinations (not wholly subject to another's will) and do receive some compensation are not slaves.
They are Vassals certainly, They definitely can not quit, but neither are they full slaves.
Sort of like who States in the United States are not Slaves of the federal Government, but they are not allowed to leave either.


I would like to know your definition of the word slave, and why you are insisting that anyone who works for the Splugorth must be a slave to work for them.

For me, one of the greatest differences is self determination. The Splugorth have an entire race of people who serve them (and only them) in perpetuity. Anybody who won't serve the Splugorth is considered a renegade and hunted down to be destroyed or locked up as the LOWEST level slave. Yes, a free society has rules but as a citizen you can leave most societies if you choose to or disagree with the policies of that government. So if there is NO self determination then how can a person be anything other than a slave of some sort? Sure you can put levels and benefits on it but a slave is a slave is a slave.

We have a winner. A minion is a slave with privileges.

So we are back to changing the definition of the word slave to make it fit.
As I understand this.....If its not a fully western consensual democracy it is slavery. If there is any form of coercion in the enforcement of the societies rules, if there is any restriction on who can leave or why, then it is a slave.

A new definition that also encompasses everyone and everything from peasants to proletariat, Samurai to States.

[Leo H]

We have a winner. A minion is a slave with privileges.[/quote]
So we are back to changing the definition of the word slave to make it fit.
As I understand this.....If its not a fully western consensual democracy it is slavery. If there is any form of coercion in the enforcement of the societies rules, if there is any restriction on who can leave or why, then it is a slave.

A new definition that also encompasses everyone and everything from peasants to proletariat, Samurai to States.[/quote]
I'm willing to make one concession in my definition. The Elite Minions may be servants who willingly serve the Splugorth. Everyone else is a slave with privileges. Sorry, anytime your ENTIRE race has to work for somebody FOREVER, that makes you a slave. What else can you really call it? They are trying to work up to Elite status and have been for awhile now. My question is this, if the lower level minions are not slaves with privileges then how do you define their status? They are NOT free so are we going with some kind of slavery spectrum or do you have another word for being deprived of self-determination?

[eliakon]

We have a winner. A minion is a slave with privileges.

So we are back to changing the definition of the word slave to make it fit.
As I understand this.....If its not a fully western consensual democracy it is slavery. If there is any form of coercion in the enforcement of the societies rules, if there is any restriction on who can leave or why, then it is a slave.

A new definition that also encompasses everyone and everything from peasants to proletariat, Samurai to States.[/quote]
I'm willing to make one concession in my definition. The Elite Minions may be servants who willingly serve the Splugorth. Everyone else is a slave with privileges. Sorry, anytime your ENTIRE race has to work for somebody FOREVER, that makes you a slave. What else can you really call it? They are trying to work up to Elite status and have been for awhile now. My question is this, if the lower level minions are not slaves with privileges then how do you define their status? They are NOT free so are we going with some kind of slavery spectrum or do you have another word for being deprived of self-determination?[/quote]
Yes I have a word for it.
"Vassal"
The Kittani are Vassals like a Samurai is. They have some freedom....as long as they choose to serve and follow orders. Or they can choose to die, preferably with honor. They can not though decide to go off and take up sheep herding in Australia...unless they get permission first of course.

[Leo H]

EliaKon"The Kittani are Vassals like a Samurai is. They have some freedom....as long as they choose to serve and follow orders. Or they can choose to die, preferably with honor. They can not though decide to go off and take up sheep herding in Australia...unless they get permission first of course."

Okay, show me where there are provisions for them to ask to do something else? They serve or die. There is NOTHING else for them. They serve or are hunted down to be punished for insubordination. They have NO self-determination at all,PERIOD. How is that not slavery?

[eliakon]

The Kittani are Vassals like a Samurai is. They have some freedom....as long as they choose to serve and follow orders. Or they can choose to die, preferably with honor. They can not though decide to go off and take up sheep herding in Australia...unless they get permission first of course."

Okay, show me where there are provisions for them to ask to do something else? They serve or die. There is NOTHING else for them. They serve or are hunted down to be punished for insubordination. They have NO self-determination at all,PERIOD. How is that not slavery?

(Quotes fixed for you)
Okay, show me where it says that.
No seriously, where does it say that they have no self determination? That they can not ask for anything? Especially since they rule entire worlds. There are entire worlds out there with Kitanni running the show. Sure they take orders from those above them, but its just like a samurai, not a slave. A Kitanni could ask, politely, if he could be permitted to go off and take up ballet. he would likely be told 'no' but he can still ask.
A Samurai has to serve or they are hunted down and punished. Do you therefore define all Samurai as slaves? Because it would appear that the Kitanni are in the same boat. They swore allegiance to a master, and they have honorably keep to that oath of service. The terms of that oath are that they will serve as soldiers for the Splugorth as needed, and in return their race shall be saved. A bargain freely made and entered into with Splyncryth (who I might point out is still around). They were not enslaved like the Zhembhak, or the various other slave stock. They appear to have some rights and privileges, including limited self rule. Just as long as they also serve.
In other words they are Vassals not slaves.
They are not free to leave no, they are expected to uphold the terms of their pact. Just like a Samurai can not just leave their Dynamo, nor a State can leave the Union, they are conditionally free.

[Alrik Vas]

If a minion is a slave with privilege, but slaves have no privileges, then minions are not slaves. The definition you gave argues with your assertion.

[Leo H]

If a minion is a slave with privilege, but slaves have no privileges, then minions are not slaves. The definition you gave argues with your assertion.

Slavery can be and often has been a spectrum of situations. So "By the Book" Blind Warrior women are referred to as slaves (Pg, 50), Tattoo warriors and T-Monster men are referred to as slaves (Pg 93 and Pg 95 respectively), Maximen are referred to as Elite warrior slaves (Pg 95). On the other hand the Metztla are referred to as lesser allies of the Splugorth (Pg54). So the Kittani are (In my opinion) slaves because they aren't allowed to learn magic (Any who try are assassinated quietly), it is in the racial description. All of them serve the Splugorth and that is the only life they are allowed to have. Any of them who don't want to serve are captured and put into slavery without any privileges at all. So "By the Book" the minions are slaves, some with privileges some without.

[Alrik Vas]

Ok. Your opinion. Done deal.

I'm not dismissing your thoughts or reasoning. Though I'm not going to argue with your opinion.

[Ed]

If a minion is a slave with privilege, but slaves have no privileges, then minions are not slaves. The definition you gave argues with your assertion.

Slaves have whatever privileges granted to them by their masters. Some have many, some have none.

[Alrik Vas]

The kittani have autonomy in action, though. They can rule their own worlds. Just because they have some basics they can't violate and have to pay taxes doesn't make them slaves.

Their service was sold. It was consensual. They are also valued for their skills.

That's the basic definition of a minion.

[glitterboy2098]

note that in the eastern cultures slaves could run entire provinces, hold important non-political positions, could earn wages, and even own lesser slaves of their own.

didn't change the fact they were still slaves, individuals owned by another. and in most non-european forms of slavery selling oneself into slavery was not uncommon. in fact in china, it was the only way for certain (majority) ethnicities to become a slave, as the law prevented forceably enslaving those ethnicities.

[Alrik Vas]

Keep in mind there is a difference between print and practice.

[Ed]

The Kittani are Vassals like a Samurai is. They have some freedom....as long as they choose to serve and follow orders. Or they can choose to die, preferably with honor. They can not though decide to go off and take up sheep herding in Australia...unless they get permission first of course."

Okay, show me where there are provisions for them to ask to do something else? They serve or die. There is NOTHING else for them. They serve or are hunted down to be punished for insubordination. They have NO self-determination at all,PERIOD. How is that not slavery?

(Quotes fixed for you)
Okay, show me where it says that.
No seriously, where does it say that they have no self determination? That they can not ask for anything?

Self determination doesn't mean an ability to ask for something; it's the ability to make important decisions for yourself. Show where the Kitanni have made important decisions that contradict the desires of the Splugorth.

Especially since they rule entire worlds. There are entire worlds out there with Kitanni running the show. Sure they take orders from those above them, but its just like a samurai, not a slave. A Kitanni could ask, politely, if he could be permitted to go off and take up ballet. he would likely be told 'no' but he can still ask.

Show examples where the Kitanni wanted to do one thing, their Splugorth masters something different; and the Kitanni got their way. I can think of one hypothetical situation, if the Kitanni are as brimming with self-determination as you claim, there should be multiple other examples.

A Samurai has to serve or they are hunted down and punished. Do you therefore define all Samurai as slaves? Because it would appear that the Kitanni are in the same boat. They swore allegiance to a master, and they have honorably keep to that oath of service.

Can a Kitanni retire? Just wake up one morning and decide they've seen enough blood and carnage for one lifetime and walk off to a monastery somewhere to meditate on zen koans? How about deciding to switch sides and go work for someone else for a while or just walk the earth like Quai Chang Caine? How about when the baby samurai was born, at what point way their destiny fixed and they had to become a samurai instead of a green grocer? Point being, samurai could quit fighting, change sides, or decide not to be a samurai to begin with. No Kitanni exist that don't serve the Splugorth.

The terms of that oath are that they will serve as soldiers for the Splugorth as needed, and in return their race shall be saved. A bargain freely made and entered into with Splyncryth (who I might point out is still around). They were not enslaved like the Zhembhak, or the various other slave stock.

You just described the Kitanni selling themselves and all their descendants into slavery. You do know bargain is a transaction, or a sale? Like what someone does with property.

[Ed]

The kittani have autonomy in action, though. They can rule their own worlds. Just because they have some basics they can't violate and have to pay taxes doesn't make them slaves.

Their service was sold. It was consensual. They are also valued for their skills.

That's the basic definition of a minion.

The basic definition of a slave is being the property of another. The Kitanni are the property of the Splugorth. They sold themselves into slavery 38,000 years ago. Call them minions, vassals, or what have you. They're still slaves.

[Leo H]

The kittani have autonomy in action, though. They can rule their own worlds. Just because they have some basics they can't violate and have to pay taxes doesn't make them slaves.

Their service was sold. It was consensual. They are also valued for their skills.

That's the basic definition of a minion.

Fair and well thought out argument. I'd be tempted to agree except for two glaring points. They agreed to serve the Splugorth to survive and not get obliterated by the Mechanoids. In the 38,000 years they have served the Splugorth that is all they're allowed to do. An entire race who swore to serve for all eternity so they and successive generations could live. You say (or at least I think it was you) say they agreed of their own free will. I'm not so sure about that idea. It was serve or die. Not really sure that counts as free will. Now, thing is if some of them were actually allowed to do other stuff, then I would agree with you. Problem is none of them are allowed to do anything else, ever, period. If you don't see that as slavery, well, okay,fine. I guess we can call it a difference of perspective on slavery.

[Leo H]

The kittani have autonomy in action, though. They can rule their own worlds. Just because they have some basics they can't violate and have to pay taxes doesn't make them slaves.

Their service was sold. It was consensual. They are also valued for their skills.

That's the basic definition of a minion.

The basic definition of a slave is being the property of another. The Kitanni are the property of the Splugorth. They sold themselves into slavery 38,000 years ago. Call them minions, vassals, or what have you. They're still slaves.

Yeah, what he said. Nicely argued by the way.

[Alrik Vas]

Actually, after reading about the Janissaries (why had I never read about them before?) I'm actually inclined to agree on the term of slave applying to the Kittani.

However, a few points.

"Join or Die" was not a threat the Splugorth made. You know this. The Kittani were going to be wiped out, the sploogies saved them at the price of being the ones who decide their destiny as a race. It was really more, "Join and Live." It's a terrible tactic, but it's what we expect from those guys.

Also, one doesn't think of slaves as someone who rules a province. If it's just the defined term, then nearly everyone on the planet thinks of people in chains, just waiting for the moment their master turns their back. So...

Reading the word slave and applying it to our beloved psionic ape men of badassery (seriously, don't mess with them...you think the CS tough in a fight...Kittani give me the jibblies) makes my hackles ride up. It's because they have so many advantages, as valued minions, but by the dictionary definition, and palladium's own writing, it's simple to extrapolate that they are slaves. Maybe the confusion comes from the fact that they write them up as a "minion race" and KS was just thinking it sounded cool?

In any case, yeah. Basically slaves. Though to define them by that word heavily misrepresents them.

[Leo H]

Actually, after reading about the Janissaries (why had I never read about them before?) I'm actually inclined to agree on the term of slave applying to the Kittani.

However, a few points.

"Join or Die" was not a threat the Splugorth made. You know this. The Kittani were going to be wiped out, the sploogies saved them at the price of being the ones who decide their destiny as a race. It was really more, "Join and Live." It's a terrible tactic, but it's what we expect from those guys.

Also, one doesn't think of slaves as someone who rules a province. If it's just the defined term, then nearly everyone on the planet thinks of people in chains, just waiting for the moment their master turns their back. So...

Reading the word slave and applying it to our beloved psionic ape men of badassery (seriously, don't mess with them...you think the CS tough in a fight...Kittani give me the jibblies) makes my hackles ride up. It's because they have so many advantages, as valued minions, but by the dictionary definition, and palladium's own writing, it's simple to extrapolate that they are slaves. Maybe the confusion comes from the fact that they write them up as a "minion race" and KS was just thinking it sounded cool?

In any case, yeah. Basically slaves. Though to define them by that word heavily misrepresents them.

Look, I agree with you on a number of levels. Don't get me wrong, I don't like that word and it feels wrong but it is a spectrum. The Kittani are straight bad asses to the core. They have tech that is the equal of anything you'll find in Phase world (in some respects better). Thirty books have come out and (except for some minor problems) the Atlantis book is just as cool as any of the other books. As for your hackles, thanks for the explanation, it was not my intention to offend but that's how I see thing because the Splugorth don't ever play fair. As a character I've fought them and as a GM they can make players cry, a lot, no really, a lot. Funniest thing ever. So, I'm saying all that to say I think they are cool too. I just think they got a raw deal.

[eliakon]

The Kittani are Vassals like a Samurai is. They have some freedom....as long as they choose to serve and follow orders. Or they can choose to die, preferably with honor. They can not though decide to go off and take up sheep herding in Australia...unless they get permission first of course."

Okay, show me where there are provisions for them to ask to do something else? They serve or die. There is NOTHING else for them. They serve or are hunted down to be punished for insubordination. They have NO self-determination at all,PERIOD. How is that not slavery?

(Quotes fixed for you)
Okay, show me where it says that.
No seriously, where does it say that they have no self determination? That they can not ask for anything?

Self determination doesn't mean an ability to ask for something; it's the ability to make important decisions for yourself. Show where the Kitanni have made important decisions that contradict the desires of the Splugorth.

I don't have to. That isn't how burden of proof works. You are the one making a positive claim (that the book is incorrect and that kittani are really slaves)
Thus it is your burden to prove it true, not mine to prove your claim false.
But hey, I will humor you.
During the Mechanoid crisis the Kitani, in direct defiance of orders, sent forces to North America to fight the Mechanoids. Sounds like self determination to me.

Especially since they rule entire worlds. There are entire worlds out there with Kitanni running the show. Sure they take orders from those above them, but its just like a samurai, not a slave. A Kitanni could ask, politely, if he could be permitted to go off and take up ballet. he would likely be told 'no' but he can still ask.

Show examples where the Kitanni wanted to do one thing, their Splugorth masters something different; and the Kitanni got their way. I can think of one hypothetical situation, if the Kitanni are as brimming with self-determination as you claim, there should be multiple other examples.

Again it is not my burden to show that it can be done, it is yours to prove that it can not be done. Because you are the one making a categorical claim that it is not possible, so it is your claim to prove.
BUT just to humor you....
When the Mechanoids invaded, even though they were ordered not to, the Kitanni sent forces to North America to fight the Mechanoids.
And yet, there is no mention of any sort of retribution or purge. Seems like they got away with doing their own thing.

A Samurai has to serve or they are hunted down and punished. Do you therefore define all Samurai as slaves? Because it would appear that the Kitanni are in the same boat. They swore allegiance to a master, and they have honorably keep to that oath of service.

Can a Kitanni retire? Just wake up one morning and decide they've seen enough blood and carnage for one lifetime and walk off to a monastery somewhere to meditate on zen koans? How about deciding to switch sides and go work for someone else for a while or just walk the earth like Quai Chang Caine? How about when the baby samurai was born, at what point way their destiny fixed and they had to become a samurai instead of a green grocer? Point being, samurai could quit fighting, change sides, or decide not to be a samurai to begin with. No Kitanni exist that don't serve the Splugorth.

-We don't know how/when Kittani retire, do you have a book citation about it? Because your the one here making a claim that they can not retire, and must serve until they die.
-And no Samurai could not quit fighting, or change sides, or decide to not be a Samurai. At least not with out committing treason that would result in they and their family being hunted down. Which is exactly the situation here. Which is why I use the Samurai as the example since it is pretty clear (to me at least) that the Kitani are intended to be a sort of Tech-Samurai of the Splugorth. Dedicated warriors who fulfil their oaths what ever the cost to themselves, noble warriors with their own codes.

The terms of that oath are that they will serve as soldiers for the Splugorth as needed, and in return their race shall be saved. A bargain freely made and entered into with Splyncryth (who I might point out is still around). They were not enslaved like the Zhembhak, or the various other slave stock.

You just described the Kitanni selling themselves and all their descendants into slavery. You do know bargain is a transaction, or a sale? Like what someone does with property.

No, I did not describe that. That is what you want to call it, not what I said.
I said that they made a deal where they would exchange loyal service for loyal service. Both sides have kept that deal, and continue to do so. Just like the bargain that a Samurai clan makes where they agree to serve another clan in perpetuity in exchange for that clans protection.
YOUR the one that is saying it is selling themselves into slavery, not me.

[Nightmask]

Quite confused how anyone could thing Minion=Slave, because it doesn't. Your average super-villain has plenty of minions working for him none of whom are slaves, they're servants who for some reason decide to serve that super-villain. The Kittani ages past CHOSE to serve the Splugorth and continue to do so (although there are certainly some who don't) as servants NOT slaves. They don't fit the definition of a slave which is why they aren't called slaves and if you're resorting to twisting things to create your own definition of 'minion' and 'slave' you're clearly admitting that you know they aren't slaves because you have to change things to make it apply.

[glitterboy2098]

Nightmask, go read up on what a slave is in different cultures. then go read the description of the minions.

ask yourself "what do you call a person who is owned by another being?" "what do you call a person who is prevented from living as they will away from the control of a person who owns your race" "what do you call a person who is strictly controlled by another being and who cannot leave that control without being killed?"

they are definitely slaves. they are just favored slaves with a number of extra perks. "minions" are the Booi of the Splugorth. or perhaps "bond servants"/"bondsmen" is a term you'd recognize more?

[Alrik Vas]

It's just a lame term. You can argue about whether they are bound or merely eternally paying a debt, but I think the point of calling them slaves is that they'll never be free of the splugorth.

[Nightmask]

Nightmask, go read up on what a slave is in different cultures. then go read the description of the minions.

ask yourself "what do you call a person who is owned by another being?" "what do you call a person who is prevented from living as they will away from the control of a person who owns your race" "what do you call a person who is strictly controlled by another being and who cannot leave that control without being killed?"

they are definitely slaves. they are just favored slaves with a number of extra perks.

The Kittani aren't owned by the Splugorth, just because they're in servitude doesn't make them slaves. All societies impose a measure of control on its members, some harsher than others but that doesn't make one a slave. Evil societies are obviously going to be on the harsher side so that even the non-slaves are having to worry about harsh rules to contend with. The Kittani therefor fit into the spot between rulers and slaves, they aren't slaves but aren't fully in control of their choices like rulers either. Which is why they're minions, they aren't slaves but they aren't at the top of the heap either.

[glitterboy2098]

Servitude: "the state of being a slave or completely subject to someone more powerful."

dictionary disagrees with you there.

servitude does not mean just working for someone and having some strict rules. it means total and complete control over a person's life by soneone else. it is the term used to refer to what slavery, serfdom, and the like is.

and if you go read about what slavery is (and not rely entirely on the perception of the very peculiar and unique american historical version), you'll see tha that midway point your speaking of? is still slavery. they are the Booi. the Nucai. The mamluks. the Jannisarries. the Slaves that simultaneously exert power on the behalf of their owners and run the empires.

[Nightmask]

Servitude: "the state of being a slave or completely subject to someone more powerful."

dictionary disagrees with you there.

servitude does not mean just working for someone and having some strict rules. it means total and complete control over a person's life by soneone else. it is the term used to refer to what slavery, serfdom, and the like is.

and if you go read about what slavery is (and not rely entirely on the perception of the very peculiar and unique american historical version), you'll see tha that midway point your speaking of? is still slavery. they are the Booi. the Nucai. The mamluks. the Jannisarries. the Slaves that simultaneously exert power on the behalf of their owners and run the empires.

Just skip right over that 'or' didn't you? Oh and you do realize that you are completely subject to the government right? So you live in servitude so I guess that means you're a slave too right? Seriously, minions aren't slaves nor are the Kittani. But hey you clearly want to consider them slaves even when they aren't and you're free to do so, but they aren't actually slaves by the book or actual definition of slavery.

[Tor]

The Kitanni were enslaved 38,000 years ago.

Source? Atlantis page 52 says Splynncryth discovered them, saved them, negotiated with them, and struck up an alliance. They serve them faithfully and respect them. They conquered others and get along with the Splugorth because they see others as inferiors waiting to be enslaved. Where is the bit about slavery I'm missing?

Any status they might have achieved in the interim was conveyed by the Splugorth, and can be revoked as easily.

Doubtful, when Splynncryth established their initial relationship, it was with almost-destroyed refugees. The Kittani have had a great deal of time to rebuild since then so it would be more difficult to demote them at present compared to establishing an inferior relationship in the first place.

Please define the difference between a minion and a slave in the context of Splugorth society.

Atlantis page 43's chart does so. The Kittani are not 'Elite Clases' like the Slavers or Kydians (Over/Power Lord) or whatever the species the Conservator/High Lord are, but they rank equally with DRAGONS (you know, those guys the Splugorth tip-toe around) and Metztlains.

I guess it doesn't necessarily prevent someone of this rank from being a slave, since that tier also includes Maxi-Men, but considering they outrank Gargoyles and Sunaj (neither of whom appear to be slaves) I do not see why we should assume slave.

In fact, because 'Slaves' appears at the bottom, I would posit that Maxi-Men and Tattooed Men and Blind Warriors on this list are explicitly NOT slaves, but rather, perhaps ex-slaves who were promoted to a higher status of minion.

We have a winner. A minion is a slave with privileges.

Nope, RAW a "slave" is a type of minion explicitly set apart from the higher ranks of minions.

All of the Splugorth Slaves are Splugorth Minions, but not all of the Splugorth Minions are Splugorth Slaves. (note that preceding with Splugorth I refer to "slave of Splugorth" or "minion of Splugorth")

[Ed]

I don't have to. That isn't how burden of proof works. You are the one making a positive claim (that the book is incorrect and that kittani are really slaves)
Thus it is your burden to prove it true, not mine to prove your claim false.
But hey, I will humor you.
During the Mechanoid crisis the Kitani, in direct defiance of orders, sent forces to North America to fight the Mechanoids. Sounds like self determination to me.

You are claiming the Kitanni have self determination. Prove it.

Again it is not my burden to show that it can be done, it is yours to prove that it can not be done. Because you are the one making a categorical claim that it is not possible, so it is your claim to prove.
BUT just to humor you....
When the Mechanoids invaded, even though they were ordered not to, the Kitanni sent forces to North America to fight the Mechanoids.
And yet, there is no mention of any sort of retribution or purge. Seems like they got away with doing their own thing.

Wrong. You are claiming the Kitanni have self determination, other than one instance (out of a 38,000 year history) where are the other examples?

-We don't know how/when Kittani retire, do you have a book citation about it? Because your the one here making a claim that they can not retire, and must serve until they die.

No Kitanni exist that are not servents of the Splugorth. What type of retirement does that imply? You are claiming the Kitanni do not serve for life. Prove it.

-And no Samurai could not quit fighting, or change sides, or decide to not be a Samurai. At least not with out committing treason that would result in they and their family being hunted down. Which is exactly the situation here. Which is why I use the Samurai as the example since it is pretty clear (to me at least) that the Kitani are intended to be a sort of Tech-Samurai of the Splugorth. Dedicated warriors who fulfil their oaths what ever the cost to themselves, noble warriors with their own codes.

I would suggest you learn something about the samurai other than what you see in the movies. Reality is much different than your claim.

[Alrik Vas]

Ed, eliakon did prove it. He sited the incident of them attacking mechanoids against orders. That's self determination. You might have ignored it or posed that it was insufficient, but it is sufficient and it's there.

[Ed]

Ed, eliakon did prove it. He sited the incident of them attacking mechanoids against orders. That's self determination. You might have ignored it or posed that it was insufficient, but it is sufficient and it's there.

One instance where the Kitanni disobeyed orders does not prove self-determination, it proves the Kitanni occasionally disobey orders. Just like every other slave in history. eliakon has demonstrated the Kitanni are typical slaves, not that they possess; as a race, the ability to live as they choose.

[Brayon]

So all the Serfs, Vassals, Nobility, & Freemen, of Medieval Europe were Slaves, just like the bought & paid for Slaves? Because none of them had Self Determination, & were subject to the King or Church. It's fairly simple. The Splurgorth Society, is based on Feudalism. King at the top, then Ranks of Social Classes aka Minions, then the Slaves who are bought, traded, & used at the bottom. Not much to overthink there. It's Fairly straight forward.