The C-12 Laser Rifle: Confusion and Inconsistency

[Hotrod]

This came up while I was working on my Disposable CS Grunt Generator. The C-12 laser rifle is one of the more iconic weapons in Rifts, and its description and capabilities seem to change depending on which book is describing it.

In CWC p91 and the GMG, the fluff text indicates that it has a 5-shot burst mode (not included in the stats). It has 3 damage settings: 4D6 MDC, 2D6 MDC, and 6D6 SDC.

In RUE, the fluff text indicates that it can be fired in single shot or a burst of three. The fluff text also states that it has three damage settings, 1 SDC and 2 MDC. However, the stats only include a single 2D6 MDC damage setting, a 6D6 MDC burst of three shots, and a 6D6 SDC setting.

Killer Cyborg stated that the original printing of RUE had this in error, but even the other two references seem inconsistent between their fluff text (which has a burst setting) and their stats (which don't). RUE changed the burst rules, so it makes some sense that the stats for this rifle would require revision, but this seems weird, as the burst setting provided makes the C-12 superior to the newer CP-40 in damage, and ammunition capacity. Its stats are also more accurate (the CP-40 fluff mentions laser targeting, but its stats include no bonus).

What is the right answer on this?

[Proseksword]

The official answer is that RIFTS Ultimate Edition C-12 no longer fires a burst, and it's stats were accidentally flopped in layout with the CV-213.

If you would rather hold onto the burst function, you can simply play with the old burst fire rules.

[Hotrod]

The official answer is that RIFTS Ultimate Edition C-12 no longer fires a burst, and it's stats were accidentally flopped in layout with the CV-213.

If you would rather hold onto the burst function, you can simply play with the old burst fire rules.

That makes total sense, though I remain dissatisfied with the fluff/stats inconsistency on bursts. If that answer is the correct one (and I think it is; it would make both weapons match the GMG and CWC), then all three descriptions include a burst mode, but none of them provide stats on said burst mode.

[Proseksword]

Unfortunately, the C-12 is a major victim of the changes to the burst-fire rules. I understand why the old rules had to go (they did more damage than most heavy weapons, and nobody fights by emptying their entire clip on every shot), but the fluff probably should have been updated too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

This came up while I was working on my Disposable CS Grunt Generator. The C-12 laser rifle is one of the more iconic weapons in Rifts, and its description and capabilities seem to change depending on which book is describing it.

In CWC p91 and the GMG, the fluff text indicates that it has a 5-shot burst mode (not included in the stats). It has 3 damage settings: 4D6 MDC, 2D6 MDC, and 6D6 SDC.

In RUE, the fluff text indicates that it can be fired in single shot or a burst of three. The fluff text also states that it has three damage settings, 1 SDC and 2 MDC. However, the stats only include a single 2D6 MDC damage setting, a 6D6 MDC burst of three shots, and a 6D6 SDC setting.

Killer Cyborg stated that the original printing of RUE had this in error, but even the other two references seem inconsistent between their fluff text (which has a burst setting) and their stats (which don't). RUE changed the burst rules, so it makes some sense that the stats for this rifle would require revision, but this seems weird, as the burst setting provided makes the C-12 superior to the newer CP-40 in damage, and ammunition capacity. Its stats are also more accurate (the CP-40 fluff mentions laser targeting, but its stats include no bonus).

What is the right answer on this?

RUE came after CWC and GMG and changed how burst rules work as well as how the C-12 works. RUE was a revision/update to the game line, so any time RUE contradicts a previous book, RUE always trumps prior rules, because it's purpose was to change them.

It would help if palladium at least changed future printings of GMG to incorporate these changes, but so far they have not.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The answer depends on what books you are using for the canon in your game.

The most current 'official' answer is that to go by what RUE says.
---------
Informational:
RMB hardcover Silver (aug 1995): three settings: 3rd: 6D6 SD, 2nd: 2D6 MD, 1st: 4D6 MD
The text says it can also be set to fire ether single shots or bursts of five. However, the single shot damage is undefined.
(((Interpretive: settings 2 (MD) & 3 (SD) are single shots and setting 1 is a 5 round MD burst.)))
The text for the C-12 appears not to have been rewritten to make all of it's parts make sense together.

Paperback RMB 3rd printing (may 1991): same as above.

[Tor]

The official answer is that RIFTS Ultimate Edition C-12 no longer fires a burst, and it's stats were accidentally flopped in layout with the CV-213.

I don't see where this official answer is drawn from.

Page 14 of the PDF http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... Eratta.pdf corrects the RUEp258 damage for the C-12.

It doesn't, however, remove the bit about the "burst of 3", which is still present and not struck out in the Errata. It also says "each laser blast or burst" in rate of fire. It is however, a change from the 'burst of 5' originally.

The answer is the same as it's been since the dawn of Rifts: we have never been told the damage the burst (be it 5 shots or 3 shots) does.

KC alleges he had some top-secret convention meeting with KS who made a rules declaration about it, yet somehow this clarification never made it into any updates since then =/

RUE came after CWC and GMG and changed how burst rules work as well as how the C-12 works. RUE was a revision/update to the game line, so any time RUE contradicts a previous book, RUE always trumps prior rules, because it's purpose was to change them.

So far as I can tell, RUE didn't so much change burst rules as much as remove them entirely and rely upon weapons to mention how they function during burst, like we see in Dead Reign.

However the C-12 didn't change at all and did not clarified how it functioned during bursts.

After the CV-212 misprint was cleared up by the RUE_Errata.pdf, we were back to square one arguing over the same text, but with a number changed.

That said: I find the (albeit text-unsupported) idea of 4D6 being a 3-shot burst being much more agreeable than it being a 5-shot burst, since that actually makes the C-12 slightly better in terms of ammo-consumption for short bursts instead of slightly worse.

Back when it was 5-shot, which it remained for a long while, I figure the simplest explanation for the mistake was 20 shots being a typo for 25 shots, or 5-shots being a typo for 4 shots.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The official answer is that RIFTS Ultimate Edition C-12 no longer fires a burst, and it's stats were accidentally flopped in layout with the CV-213.

I don't see where this official answer is drawn from.

Page 14 of the PDF http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... Eratta.pdf corrects the RUEp258 damage for the C-12.

Note that those RUE of 2nd printing or greater have already been updated with the Eratta mentioned.
Thus the official text is in RUE, except for those of the 1st printing.

[Hotrod]

Based on the RUE fluff text, there are 3 damage settings (one of them SDC, the other two MDC) and two firing modes (single and 3-shot burst). As I see it, there should be six damage values listed:

1. High MDC Single-shot (4D6)
2. High MDC Pulse/Burst (1D6x10+10 is indicated based on the JA-12 which can triple-pulse its 4D6 laser, but I guess that's a bit overpowered for a standard infantry rifle?)
3. Low MDC Single-shot (2D6)
4. Low MDC Pulse/Burst (6D6)
5. SDC Single-shot (6D6 SDC)
6. SDC Pulse/Burst (2D4*10 SDC)

If these stats were the ones provided, then this rifle would truly be, as the RUE text says "still a favorite of Commandos and Special Ops."

[Killer Cyborg]

The confusion with the C-12 is because the 5-shot burst setting IS the 4D6 MD setting.
Single shot is 2d6 MD.
Short Burst (5 shots) is x2 damage, or 4d6 MD.

The description uses the word "also" when it shouldn't, just like the CP-40 description does.

RUE originally screwed it up, printing the CV-212 stats where the C-12 stats should have been.
Later printings have corrected it--which is a change from the original--to a 3-shot burst for 4d6 damag.
This matches the new burst rules in general--x2 damage for 3 rounds, just like an SDC assault rifle.

[Hotrod]

I agree that it's consistent with SDC burst weapons, but if your interpretation is correct, then the C-12 has quite possibly the least efficient hand-held laser burst mode in the game, and is inconsistent with any other laser weapon I can think of. Virtually all other comparable weapons' burst modes are pretty close to a straight multiplication of damage by the number of shots fired.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Based on the RUE fluff text, there are 3 damage settings (one of them SDC, the other two MDC) and two firing modes (single and 3-shot burst). As I see it, there should be six damage values listed:

1. High MDC Single-shot (4D6)
2. High MDC Pulse/Burst (1D6x10+10 is indicated based on the JA-12 which can triple-pulse its 4D6 laser, but I guess that's a bit overpowered for a standard infantry rifle?)
3. Low MDC Single-shot (2D6)
4. Low MDC Pulse/Burst (6D6)
5. SDC Single-shot (6D6 SDC)
6. SDC Pulse/Burst (2D4*10 SDC)

If these stats were the ones provided, then this rifle would truly be, as the RUE text says "still a favorite of Commandos and Special Ops."

The problem there is, is that in RUE there is no burst multiplier tables, so you can't just multiply the listed damaged by the burst multiplier.(If I am just missing the RUE burst multiplier tables because they are not in the modern weapons combat text, please state where they are.)
However, following the KISS principle, the Single Shot/Burst text just describes the MD setting damages.
But of course we will never get any comments out of KS about the text vs stats on this so this whole issue will never be resolved.

However, after saying that, a three round burst could be considered to be a short burst. So if you are not using RUE as your canon for your game you can use the burst from tables in the RMB and just double the damage, MD and SD.

[Jefffar]

When the origional C-12 stats came out, a short burst was 2 hits, so 4D6 could was plausible for 2 hits from the 2D6 damage weapon in burst mode.

But the writing implied that there was a 2D6 and a 4D6 setting both with possible Burst Modes resulting in damage options like this.

SDC Single: 6D6 SDC
SDC Burst: 12D6 SDC
Low MDC Single: 2D6 MDC
Low MDC Burst: 4D6 MDC
High MDC Single: 4D6 MDC
High MDC Burst: 8D6 MDC

[drewkitty ~..~]

Actually the writing says that the C-12 has a SD setting (6D6 SD), and two MD settings (2D6 MD & 4D6 MD). Since it also says that it can do a three round burst, then those damages would be doubled (12D6 SD, 4D6 MD, & 8D6 MD respectively) during burst fire according to the relevent/only burst damage tables in the RMB.
◆And the MDC of the Rifle falls somewhere between 30 and 50 MDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree that it's consistent with SDC burst weapons, but if your interpretation is correct, then the C-12 has quite possibly the least efficient hand-held laser burst mode in the game, and is inconsistent with any other laser weapon I can think of. Virtually all other comparable weapons' burst modes are pretty close to a straight multiplication of damage by the number of shots fired.

Virtually all other laser weapons burst modes are pulse modes. The C-12 isn't.

Under the original rules, most non-pulse laser weapons with a 30-round mag had to fire 6 rounds in order to inflict x2 damage. The C-12 got a one-round discount, making it superior (unless you were using short e-clips, because ammo changes screwed up their entire original burst/spray rules for every weapon).
As the original burst/spray rules were phased out, the C-12 retained burst capability, where a lot of (ultimately ALL of) the other Standard laser rifles lost their burst capability entirely. So the C-12 still nets out ahead of most laser weapons.
It's not as good as a pulse weapon, but it's an older weapon that's been in service for a long time, and that's why it's being phased out and replaced with a pulse weapon (the CP-40).

Compare it to the Q2-20, which does 3d6 per shot, or 6d6 per 5-shot burst. It's basically a cross between the C-14 and the C-12.


(personally, I was disappointed to discover how the C-12 was originally supposed to work. I tend to play it as a 5-shot pulse for 1d6x10 MD, which fixes most issues for me)

[Killer Cyborg]

When the origional C-12 stats came out, a short burst was 2 hits, so 4D6 could was plausible for 2 hits from the 2D6 damage weapon in burst mode.

But the writing implied that there was a 2D6 and a 4D6 setting both with possible Burst Modes resulting in damage options like this.

SDC Single: 6D6 SDC
SDC Burst: 12D6 SDC
Low MDC Single: 2D6 MDC
Low MDC Burst: 4D6 MDC
High MDC Single: 4D6 MDC
High MDC Burst: 8D6 MDC

Right.
The part that implied that both were possible was the part that said:
The rifle can also be set to fire a single shot or a burst of five.

In conjunction with the previous sentence ("The rifle has three settings, one SDC and two MDC)"), that would mean exactly what you say.

But that's not what Palladium actually meant (as Doom figured out, everybody argued about ad nauseum until even I changed my mind), etc..

Check out the language on the CP-40:
A rapid-fire pulse laser rifle with four damage settings, two SDC and two MD.
The rifle can also be set to fire single shots or triple pulse bursts.

THAT--as written--means that the CP-40 can fire

SDC Single: 6D6 SDC
SDC Single: 1d6x10 SDC
SDC Burst: 18D6 SDC
SDC burst: 3d6x10 SDC
Low MDC Single: 2D6 MDC
Low MDC Pulse: 6D6 MDC
High MDC Single: 4D6 MDC
High MDC Pulse: 12D6 MDC

The exact same wording is used in each case.
Like the C-12, the CP-40 (at least in the RGMG version) doesn't specify in the damage section that the higher damage is the pulse setting.
Like the C-12, the only hint we have that the higher damage is for the burst setting is in the weapon description.

If the C-12 has a 4d6 burst setting, then the CP-40 has a 12d6 pulse setting.
If the CP-40 does not have a 12d6 pulse setting, then that's because Palladium didn't write what they actually meant to, and they included the word "also" when they shouldn't have, in a very poorly-worded passage that should have said something more like:
The rifle has three settings, one SDC and two MDC settings: the rifle can be set to fire a single shot or a burst of five.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*wonders why all these people are suddenly talking about armor when the topic is about weapons.*

[Killer Cyborg]

*wonders why all these people are suddenly talking about armor when the topic is about weapons.*

[Fell]

*wonders why all these people are suddenly talking about armor when the topic is about weapons.*

Adventurers sell that C-12 to a poor D-Bee, buy a NE-101.

CS troops time to put in a requisition form requesting upgraded CS weapons for your unit.

Players eagerly await new CS book and demand your GM give you *That* new CS gun on page ??

[Jefffar]

When the origional C-12 stats came out, a short burst was 2 hits, so 4D6 could was plausible for 2 hits from the 2D6 damage weapon in burst mode.

But the writing implied that there was a 2D6 and a 4D6 setting both with possible Burst Modes resulting in damage options like this.

SDC Single: 6D6 SDC
SDC Burst: 12D6 SDC
Low MDC Single: 2D6 MDC
Low MDC Burst: 4D6 MDC
High MDC Single: 4D6 MDC
High MDC Burst: 8D6 MDC

Right.
The part that implied that both were possible was the part that said:
The rifle can also be set to fire a single shot or a burst of five.

In conjunction with the previous sentence ("The rifle has three settings, one SDC and two MDC)"), that would mean exactly what you say.

But that's not what Palladium actually meant (as Doom figured out, everybody argued about ad nauseum until even I changed my mind), etc..

Check out the language on the CP-40:
A rapid-fire pulse laser rifle with four damage settings, two SDC and two MD.
The rifle can also be set to fire single shots or triple pulse bursts.

THAT--as written--means that the CP-40 can fire

SDC Single: 6D6 SDC
SDC Single: 1d6x10 SDC
SDC Burst: 18D6 SDC
SDC burst: 3d6x10 SDC
Low MDC Single: 2D6 MDC
Low MDC Pulse: 6D6 MDC
High MDC Single: 4D6 MDC
High MDC Pulse: 12D6 MDC

The exact same wording is used in each case.
Like the C-12, the CP-40 (at least in the RGMG version) doesn't specify in the damage section that the higher damage is the pulse setting.
Like the C-12, the only hint we have that the higher damage is for the burst setting is in the weapon description.

If the C-12 has a 4d6 burst setting, then the CP-40 has a 12d6 pulse setting.
If the CP-40 does not have a 12d6 pulse setting, then that's because Palladium didn't write what they actually meant to, and they included the word "also" when they shouldn't have, in a very poorly-worded passage that should have said something more like:
The rifle has three settings, one SDC and two MDC settings: the rifle can be set to fire a single shot or a burst of five.

The CP-40 was first published several years after the C-12 was and after the description of the C-12 was clarified.

[Killer Cyborg]

I wasn't aware that the C-12 description had ever been fully clarified.

[Jefffar]

Individuals who had spoken with Kevin had posted the clarification.

[Killer Cyborg]

Individuals who had spoken with Kevin had posted the clarification.

Gotcha.

I didn't speak to KS about the C-12 until the 2005 GenCon, and the CP-40 was first published in CWC 9 years earlier, back in 1996.
Between the publishing of CWC and 2005, I believe that I at one point noticed the fact that the CP-40 used the exact same language as the C-12, only with a demonstrably different meaning than many of us had been interpreting the C-12's text to mean.
IIRC, that was one of the things that shifted my position on how the C-12 was supposed to function.

Currently--a full decade after I talked to KS at GenCon and posted my findings online--many people still do not accept my description of the conversation as being accurate, or they believe that it is more likely that KS was lying to me, or that he was mis-remembering how he originally intended the C-12 to function.
Consequently, we have Topics like this one pop up a few times a year.

[Tor]

The confusion with the C-12 is because the 5-shot burst setting IS the 4D6 MD setting.

According to your secret convention meet-up that has never made it into any official print =/

Later printings have corrected it--which is a change from the original--to a 3-shot burst for 4d6 damag.
This matches the new burst rules in general--x2 damage for 3 rounds, just like an SDC assault rifle.

Later printings, if they resemble what's in the PDF, do not actually clarify the 4D6 to represent the 3-shot burst. The phrasing is still as if the 6d6s/2D6M/4D6M could all fire 3-shot bursts.

Actually the writing says that the C-12 has a SD setting (6D6 SD), and two MD settings (2D6 MD & 4D6 MD). Since it also says that it can do a three round burst, then those damages would be doubled (12D6 SD, 4D6 MD, & 8D6 MD respectively) during burst fire according to the relevent/only burst damage tables in the RMB.

Those rules for short bursts were based on firing 20% (1/5) of the clip, 5 shots is 1/4 of a 20-shot clip and 1/6 of a 30-shot clip, so I guess it could've been a tradeoff like "in exchange for being more efficient with long e-clips this gun is less efficient with short ones" ?

Although I don't know why you'd want burst efficiency with long clips since it'd always make more sense to use short clips for bursting and long clips for single-shot sniping.

Problem is that 2D6/shot just doesn't stack up to what the CS is painted as being, especially when their mixed-nade gun can do 3D6 and so can the inferior Northern Gun version.

Being x2 for a 3-shot burst is a big improvement, bringing it up to where I'd expect the CS to have been, ahead of the game, even pre-CWC.

Individuals who had spoken with Kevin had posted the clarification.

I had thought KC was one of those individuals claiming a Kev-speak and posted about it, so if he's saying it hasn't been clarified... figured it hasn't.

Print really is the thing though. If these convos happened and KS wants to stand by them then it'd be easy to solve in an errata.

Instead, we saw nothing like it in the PDF he went to the trouble of making.

What came first, the convention fan-author meeting or the PDF?

[Killer Cyborg]

The confusion with the C-12 is because the 5-shot burst setting IS the 4D6 MD setting.

According to your secret convention meet-up that has never made it into any official print =/

Also, according to logic an reason.
Do you really want to argue it all out again?
Do you envision the result being any different than last time...?

PS your use of the word "secret" is inaccurate. Standing in the middle of GenCon at an active booth with lots of people around isn't secret.
Such misuse gives the appearance that you're trying to emotionally bias the conversation, which is generally a counter-productive action.

Later printings have corrected it--which is a change from the original--to a 3-shot burst for 4d6 damag.
This matches the new burst rules in general--x2 damage for 3 rounds, just like an SDC assault rifle.

Later printings, if they resemble what's in the PDF, do not actually clarify the 4D6 to represent the 3-shot burst. The phrasing is still as if the 6d6s/2D6M/4D6M could all fire 3-shot bursts.

Correct.
Like the CP-40's description in the RGMG (p. 122), the current C-12's description mentions the burst setting in the description, but does not mention which (if any) setting is in the burst setting in the damage description.

So what we're left with is the knowledge that the C-12 has a setting that fires a short burst, and two MD damage settings, one of which is x2 (by Palladium damage math) the other setting, which would conform with the higher damage setting being the aforementioned burst setting.
Just like when we look at the RGMG's CP-40, we're left with the knowledge that the CP-40 fires a pulse, and of the two MD settings listed, one of them is x3 (by Palladium damage math) the other setting, which would conform with the higher damage setting being the aforementioned pulse setting.

When there are two pieces of a puzzle that fit together, the logical thing to do is to fit them together.

Individuals who had spoken with Kevin had posted the clarification.

I had thought KC was one of those individuals claiming a Kev-speak and posted about it, so if he's saying it hasn't been clarified... figured it hasn't.

What I said was:
"I wasn't aware that the C-12 description had ever been fully clarified."

It was clarified to me, and I explained to others.
That's some level of clarification, but it's certainly not full clarification.

Print really is the thing though. If these convos happened and KS wants to stand by them then it'd be easy to solve in an errata.

Palladium as a rule does not do errata. When they DO errata, they focus on stuff that they think needs clarifying.
I don't think that KS sees any reason to clarify the C-12's workings, and that he's generally unaware how many people interpret the description differently than his original intent.

Probably because I am apparently the only person in 25 years who has bothered to actually ask him about it directly, instead of arguing online with other customers and just assuming that KS will somehow know about the conversation, feel the need to clarify, and prioritize the action highly enough to get around to it over all the other stuff on his To Do List.

What came first, the convention fan-author meeting or the PDF?

PDF came out after I talked to him.
When the errata list was made, it was not made by Kevin sitting down and recalling every question every fan ever asked him about RUE.
Any efforts at fixing the C-12 was most likely focused on the mistaken damage listing in the original RUE, not on answering fan questions about rule interpretations.

[Tor]

your use of the word "secret" is inaccurate. Standing in the middle of GenCon at an active booth with lots of people around isn't secret.

No idea how many of those people around were listening or who would remember. If there was a vid of him discussing this on a talk on YT I wouldn't call it secret, but basically anything without lots of testimony/witness or recordings is basically secret to me, even if it wasn't secretive in nature.

what we're left with is the knowledge that the C-12 has a setting that fires a short burst

A 3-shot is shorter-than-short no matter what clip, although 'left with' I dunno since originally a 5-shot was shorter-than-short in respect to long clips but longer-than-short in respect to short clips.

two MD damage settings, one of which is x2 (by Palladium damage math) the other setting, which would conform with the higher damage setting being the aforementioned burst setting.

Just like when we look at the RGMG's CP-40, we're left with the knowledge that the CP-40 fires a pulse, and of the two MD settings listed, one of them is x3 (by Palladium damage math) the other setting, which would conform with the higher damage setting being the aforementioned pulse setting.

I've never agreed with the idea of using a gun introduced later on to retroactively interpret a main book gun, it's too bebopping and scattin' all over the place, we need something that stands on its own from the start.

Palladium as a rule does not do errata. When they DO errata, they focus on stuff that they think needs clarifying.

They have done errata, so that's not a 'rule', they just don't do it often enough.

I don't think that KS sees any reason to clarify the C-12's workings, and that he's generally unaware how many people interpret the description differently than his original intent.

Even though you, someone incredibly knowledgeable about Rifts, still brought it up to him? Even though there's been all kinds of threads here which mods have gotten involved in and might've mentioned it to him?

Probably because I am apparently the only person in 25 years who has bothered to actually ask him about it directly, instead of arguing online with other customers and just assuming that KS will somehow know about the conversation, feel the need to clarify, and prioritize the action highly enough to get around to it over all the other stuff on his To Do List.

Makes me wonder: these questions that end up in Rifter Errata and eventually get reviewed by him and published answers... how do you get those to that level? Mail a written letter?

PDF came out after I talked to him. When the errata list was made, it was not made by Kevin sitting down and recalling every question every fan ever asked him about RUE.

So how was it made? How do we know if he thought he heard the same question you asked? Also he could've been a Changeling or drunk (though not both) or conventions are noisy and he or you could've misheard. The very argument you use for it being non-secret (lots of people around) works against the idea that communication was uncompromised.

Any efforts at fixing the C-12 was most likely focused on the mistaken damage listing in the original RUE, not on answering fan questions about rule interpretations.

and yet 5 shot got changed to 3 shot, which leaves us wondering if some of it got through

[Killer Cyborg]

your use of the word "secret" is inaccurate. Standing in the middle of GenCon at an active booth with lots of people around isn't secret.

No idea how many of those people around were listening or who would remember. If there was a vid of him discussing this on a talk on YT I wouldn't call it secret, but basically anything without lots of testimony/witness or recordings is basically secret to me, even if it wasn't secretive in nature.

Your reasoning does not change the effect.

what we're left with is the knowledge that the C-12 has a setting that fires a short burst

A 3-shot is shorter-than-short no matter what clip,

Not at all. Reread the RUE Modern Weapon Proficiencies section.
3-round burst for x3 damage is the new standard short burst.
(Well, "new" since 2005)

two MD damage settings, one of which is x2 (by Palladium damage math) the other setting, which would conform with the higher damage setting being the aforementioned burst setting.

Just like when we look at the RGMG's CP-40, we're left with the knowledge that the CP-40 fires a pulse, and of the two MD settings listed, one of them is x3 (by Palladium damage math) the other setting, which would conform with the higher damage setting being the aforementioned pulse setting.

I've never agreed with the idea of using a gun introduced later on to retroactively interpret a main book gun[, it's too bebopping and scattin' all over the place, we need something that stands on its own from the start.

You don't have to agree with it in order for it to be the most sensible option.
There's no bebopping, and no scattin'. (again, using these terms just comes off like you're trolling or trying to undermine logic by using emotionally manipulative words, neither of which helps your argument)
It's just a clear demonstration of what Palladium means when they use that phrasing.

Palladium as a rule does not do errata. When they DO errata, they focus on stuff that they think needs clarifying.

They have done errata, so that's not a 'rule', they just don't do it often enough.

I didn't mean to confuse you.
Here is what [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+%22as+a+rule%22+mean&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8["as a rule"[/url] means:
[b]as a rule[/i]
1.
usually, but not always.

I don't think that KS sees any reason to clarify the C-12's workings, and that he's generally unaware how many people interpret the description differently than his original intent.

Even though you, someone incredibly knowledgeable about Rifts, still brought it up to him?

Even though I, some guy he was meeting for the first time, brought it up to him.

Even though there's been all kinds of threads here which mods have gotten involved in and might've mentioned it to him?

I'm pretty sure that the mods don't bother him with game rules arguments.
You'd have to ask a mod about that, though, to be sure.

Probably because I am apparently the only person in 25 years who has bothered to actually ask him about it directly, instead of arguing online with other customers and just assuming that KS will somehow know about the conversation, feel the need to clarify, and prioritize the action highly enough to get around to it over all the other stuff on his To Do List.

Makes me wonder: these questions that end up in Rifter Errata and eventually get reviewed by him and published answers... how do you get those to that level? Mail a written letter?

That's what I've heard from Palladium.
Or enough people over enough time going up to ask him in person would probably do it.

PDF came out after I talked to him. When the errata list was made, it was not made by Kevin sitting down and recalling every question every fan ever asked him about RUE.

So how was it made?

I don't know the exact process--I didn't make it.
Feel free to ask Palladium.

How do we know if he thought he heard the same question you asked?

How am I supposed to know what you're asking there?

Also he could've been a Changeling or drunk (though not both) or conventions are noisy and he or you could've misheard. The very argument you use for it being non-secret (lots of people around) works against the idea that communication was uncompromised.

Hey, anything's possible. Cling to whatever hope you want.
I'm just saying what happened--what the books actually say, and what the writer of the books actually said.
You don't have to believe me.
Heck, maybe he was a changeling. Go with that, and see where it gets you.

Any efforts at fixing the C-12 was most likely focused on the mistaken damage listing in the original RUE, not on answering fan questions about rule interpretations.

and yet 5 shot got changed to 3 shot, which leaves us wondering if some of it got through

That was due to a change in the burst rules, not a fan question.
With the new burst rules, a 5-shot burst was no longer efficient--it was significantly sub-par. So Palladium changed the number of rounds fired in the burst.
It didn't answer any questions. It just changed a number.

[Mack]

Tor,
Killer Cyborg,

There's no reason to rehash your arguments again.

[Tor]

Mkay, Mack will stick to the one new bit that hasn't come up before and is just a request for clarification not an argument.

Reread the RUE Modern Weapon Proficiencies section. 3-round burst for x3 damage is the new standard short burst.

RUEp360-362 I can find the strike penalties for burst but not this bit about rounds/multiplier. My observation may not be up to par tonight, wondering if someone can guide me.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mkay, Mack will stick to the one new bit that hasn't come up before and is just a request for clarification not an argument.

Reread the RUE Modern Weapon Proficiencies section. 3-round burst for x3 damage is the new standard short burst.

RUEp360-362 I can find the strike penalties for burst but not this bit about rounds/multiplier. My observation may not be up to par tonight, wondering if someone can guide me.

RUE 328-329

[Tor]

WP Handgun mentions double damage for a standard short burst (three rounds) and WP rifle mentions triple damage for a standard long burst (6 rounds, counts as 2 attacks) but Submachine guns do 1D4x10 instead of 4D6x2 on a 3-round short, plus all the stuff on Heavy Military Weapons.

I can agree so far as it establishing a 3/6 short/long for non-heavy weapons, but not necessarily any kinda triple/sextuple multiplier since that's pistol/rifle but not kept for submachine. Plus none of it is used for the energy weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

Apparently it IS.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Might I point out the modern weapons that is the basis for this topic is an energy rifle. And the E-Rifle WP text says to just look at page 360 of RUE, Which only gives strike bonuses for E-Rifles.

And that I had pointed out that the different MD 'settings' fit with the burst text quite nicely and none of you had any problems with what I had said, due to that nothing negatively posted about what I said. Of course I didn't come out right and saying it in a '<This Is So...>' statement, it was there.
I'm surprised the only other poster that mentioned it was Tor.

While GM's can interpret that the WP rifle burst multipliers can be applied to the E-rifles, there are no same mentioned multipliers in the E-rifle text. So KS is right in saying there are no burst multipliers for e-rifles, and would also be correct in saying the same for e-pistols and heavy MD weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

Might I point out the modern weapons that is the basis for this topic is an energy rifle. And the E-Rifle WP text says to just look at page 360 of RUE, Which only gives strike bonuses for E-Rifles.

Right.
There are no official rules for default bursts specifically for energy rifles.
But the original rules for default bursting with energy rifles were the same as the rules for other modern weapons, and there is nothing in the books that ever states that e-rifles default bursts are any differently than any other kind of rifle.
The fact that e-rifles are not a stated exception to the new precedents for bursting indicates that they are not an exception.

And that I had pointed out that the different MD 'settings' fit with the burst text quite nicely and none of you had any problems with what I had said, due to that nothing negatively posted about what I said. Of course I didn't come out right and saying it in a '<This Is So...>' statement, it was there.
I'm surprised the only other poster that mentioned it was Tor.

I'm pretty sure that Tor is the only poster in the conversation who objects to the idea that the 4d6 setting is the burst setting.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And that I had pointed out that the different MD 'settings' fit with the burst text quite nicely and none of you had any problems with what I had said, due to that nothing negatively posted about what I said. Of course I didn't come out right and saying it in a '<This Is So...>' statement, it was there.
I'm surprised the only other poster that mentioned it was Tor.

I'm pretty sure that Tor is the only poster in the conversation who objects to the idea that the 4d6 setting is the burst setting.

snip
---------
Informational:
RMB hardcover Silver (aug 1995): three settings: 3rd: 6D6 SD, 2nd: 2D6 MD, 1st: 4D6 MD
The text says it can also be set to fire ether single shots or bursts of five. However, the single shot damage is undefined.
(((Interpretive: settings 2 (MD) & 3 (SD) are single shots and setting 1 is a 5 round MD burst.)))
The text for the C-12 appears not to have been rewritten to make all of it's parts make sense together.

Paperback RMB 3rd printing (may 1991): same as above.

I posted the 5th comment to the OP. So it was there for all of you to read.

[Killer Cyborg]

And that I had pointed out that the different MD 'settings' fit with the burst text quite nicely and none of you had any problems with what I had said, due to that nothing negatively posted about what I said. Of course I didn't come out right and saying it in a '<This Is So...>' statement, it was there.
I'm surprised the only other poster that mentioned it was Tor.

I'm pretty sure that Tor is the only poster in the conversation who objects to the idea that the 4d6 setting is the burst setting.

snip
---------
Informational:
RMB hardcover Silver (aug 1995): three settings: 3rd: 6D6 SD, 2nd: 2D6 MD, 1st: 4D6 MD
The text says it can also be set to fire ether single shots or bursts of five. However, the single shot damage is undefined.
(((Interpretive: settings 2 (MD) & 3 (SD) are single shots and setting 1 is a 5 round MD burst.)))
The text for the C-12 appears not to have been rewritten to make all of it's parts make sense together.

Paperback RMB 3rd printing (may 1991): same as above.

I posted the 5th comment to the OP. So it was there for all of you to read.

I've read it.
Apparently I'm not getting out of it what you intended, because to me it seems to be saying that the 4d6 setting is the burst setting.

[drewkitty ~..~]

That if the text is read as a whole (critical reading) the multiple blast setting of the C-12 is the higher MD setting, is what I was pointing out in a non-confrontational wording.

Will note that nearly ALL e-rifles and e-pistols have what bursts they are capable of defined within the weapon's text. So there is no need for the burst fire damage for them to be defined as a general rule.

[Tor]

Apparently it IS.

Not sure which portion of my post this is a response to. What you pointed out does support 3 shots replacing 20% for short and 6 shots replacing 50% for long and long taking 2 attacks (used to be full-clip bursts took that and long could be done in 1 attack) but while I agree it is good to house-rule a x3 or a x6 (as suggested by the pistol/rifle examples) the submachine gun burst damage does contradict this.

But the original rules for default bursting with energy rifles were the same as the rules for other modern weapons, and there is nothing in the books that ever states that e-rifles default bursts are any differently than any other kind of rifle.
The fact that e-rifles are not a stated exception to the new precedents for bursting indicates that they are not an exception.

I would instead suggest that since we did not get any overall bursting rules and instead only got rules listed under certain WP that it would only apply to them.

How about instead: since there is nothing saying RUE has thrown out the old rules, we go back to the 20/50 percent from RMB, the x2 / x3 has been around since RCB, or we could add in the double-tap from GMG.

pretty sure that Tor is the only poster in the conversation who objects to the idea that the 4d6 setting is the burst setting.

I object to it less if it's representing a 3-shot burst, at least that makes more sense in terms of the CS being top-tier tech. I still think the C-12 doing more damage per blast compared to the C-14's laser or a NG laser makes sense though. Being on par with the J-10 makes more sense, it still has the advantage of double the range and ion bursting (last part of course killed by RUE)

[Killer Cyborg]

Apparently it IS.

Not sure which portion of my post this is a response to. What you pointed out does support 3 shots replacing 20% for short and 6 shots replacing 50% for long and long taking 2 attacks (used to be full-clip bursts took that and long could be done in 1 attack) but while I agree it is good to house-rule a x3 or a x6 (as suggested by the pistol/rifle examples) the submachine gun burst damage does contradict this.

Every general rule has exceptions.

But the original rules for default bursting with energy rifles were the same as the rules for other modern weapons, and there is nothing in the books that ever states that e-rifles default bursts are any differently than any other kind of rifle.
The fact that e-rifles are not a stated exception to the new precedents for bursting indicates that they are not an exception.

I would instead suggest that since we did not get any overall bursting rules and instead only got rules listed under certain WP that it would only apply to them.

Of course you would.

How about instead: since there is nothing saying RUE has thrown out the old rules, we go back to the 20/50 percent from RMB, the x2 / x3 has been around since RCB, or we could add in the double-tap from GMG.

The double-tap rules would be the most recent, but they were replaced by RUE's newer, less well-defined rules.

pretty sure that Tor is the only poster in the conversation who objects to the idea that the 4d6 setting is the burst setting.

I object to it less if it's representing a 3-shot burst, at least that makes more sense in terms of the CS being top-tier tech. I still think the C-12 doing more damage per blast compared to the C-14's laser or a NG laser makes sense though. Being on par with the J-10 makes more sense, it still has the advantage of double the range and ion bursting (last part of course killed by RUE)

Those are all reasons why I fought the idea so long, but in the end there was simply too much evidence.
So don't get me wrong here--I don't want the C-12's 4d6 MD setting to be the burst setting. I think that it's stupid that the nation repeatedly described as having the best technology in North America has a main battle rifle that only does 2d6 MD per shot, with 4d6 on a 5-shot (now 3-shot) burst.
The L-friggin'-20 is described as a fairly generic laser rifle, and it's clearly superior to the original C-12. The JA-11 is superior as well. A LOT of the rifles in the main book are superior to the original C-12, including the C-14 Firebreather. In some ways, even the C-10 is superior, because at least with that rifle you could rip off your entire clip at a powerful enemy for big damage.

But the theory that the 4d6 MD setting is a single-shot setting doesn't fit.
It doesn't fit the existence of the CP-40.
It doesn't fit the mention of a 5-shot burst setting.

On the other hand, the 4d6 MD setting being the burst setting DOES fit.
It fits the idea that the C-10 was an earlier version of the C-12 (with 2d6 per shot, it's the same weapon except for more ammo and a preset burst).
It fits the existence of the CP-40
It fits the 5-shot burst setting.
It fits with Kevin Siembieda telling me that's the way the rifle was intended to work.

In my games, I just changed the 5-shot burst to a 5-shot pulse, specifically because I don't like the CS having such a relative junker for their main rifle. But just because I don't like the way the gun was supposed to work doesn't change the facts.

[Tor]

Every general rule has exceptions.

Sure, but we're not talking about a general rule, we're talking about WP-specific listings.

Of course you would.

This seems like a snipe at me or something, but it accurately assesses what is there.

How about instead: since there is nothing saying RUE has thrown out the old rules, we go back to the 20/50 percent from RMB, the x2 / x3 has been around since RCB, or we could add in the double-tap from GMG.

The double-tap rules would be the most recent, but they were replaced by RUE's newer, less well-defined rules.

Were they? Where's it say that? GMG gave an option for dealing with the standard/burst weapons while RUE doesn't address those labels under weapons at all. We have to look to old rules to interpret those old weapons which haven't yet been retcon-nerfed to 'single shot only' since there isn't anything except non-energy pistol/rifle.

in the end there was simply too much evidence.

Naw, that comparison to CWC isn't evidence.

In some ways, even the C-10 is superior, because at least with that rifle you could rip off your entire clip at a powerful enemy for big damage.

The thing is: even if 4D6 represented a special 5-shot burst, RMBp205 had the exact same "aimed, burst wild" RoF for both the C-10 and C-12, so any bursting options available for the C-10 would be retained for the C-12. Meaning if you used a short clip you could fire a short 20% burst for 2D6x2, meaning the 4D6 would only be useful if you wanted a lesser likelihood of a pathetic 4MD (say if a monster had exactly that much and you wanted to improve your odds of rolling higher) or if you were using a long clip.

But the theory that the 4d6 MD setting is a single-shot setting doesn't fit.
It doesn't fit the existence of the CP-40.
It doesn't fit the mention of a 5-shot burst setting.

The CP-40 came later, the problem is just as easily with how it phrases things.

The mention of the 5-shot burst doesn't have to fit anything we can just view it as the glaring hole it's always been.

On the other hand, the 4d6 MD setting being the burst setting DOES fit.
It fits the idea that the C-10 was an earlier version of the C-12 (with 2d6 per shot, it's the same weapon except for more ammo and a preset burst).

The 'earlier version' thing could just as easily be related to the experimental laser targeting system.

It fits with Kevin Siembieda telling me that's the way the rifle was intended to work.

I can't rely on memory to be uncorrupted =/

[Mack]

Topic locked because Tor and Killer Cyborg can't resist rehashing a very old argument.