Psionics + Bionics?? How many systems, etc.

[say652]

Rmb says Old school partial conversion only destroys 1/2 isp.
Warlords of Russia has a pretty cool partial conversion system.

Add on to Burster or I a just recently found Psi Slayer

My question is techno wizard items and bionics?
Are they usable?

[eliakon]

Rmb says Old school partial conversion only destroys 1/2 isp.
Warlords of Russia has a pretty cool partial conversion system.

Add on to Burster or I a just recently found Psi Slayer

My question is techno wizard items and bionics?
Are they usable?

This unfortunately like many things ends up a case of "Depends on what book you look at"
However RUE says that Borgs can not use TW devices. Though presumably devices specifically made for cyborgs (such as TW Cybernetics.....) could be used.

[say652]

So tw bionics then.

Cannot use tw devices.

What about Amaki Gizmo implants??
Or tw bionic implants with cost paid in Isp instead of ppe?

Would the four tw system per body armor rule still apply?

[eliakon]

So tw bionics then.

Cannot use tw devices.

What about Amaki Gizmo implants??

Answer Murky, ask your GM (especially since it will be a GM running if you can even make such implants...)

Or tw bionic implants with cost paid in Isp instead of ppe?

Those would still be TW

Would the four tw system per body armor rule still apply?

That rule (from RMB) seems to have been dropped/revised. Sort of. More or less. So its basically back to "Ask your GM how he rules this grey area in his game."

[taalismn]

Complicating matters is the example of the Mechanoids, who combine bionics with (presumably) genetically-engineered psionics. So, if one uses enough genetic engineering to radically alter an organism specifically for both bionics and mind abilities, although only after generations of guided design might you get something as powerful as the Mechanoids...or something less powerful and more complication-fraught in the shorter term(I'm already tackling this idea for a psionic cyborg type).
In the alternative, you can take an existing Mechanoid and radically alter their body shell to make them another form, like a humanoid(although size may impose certain constraints...you're not going to fit a made-over Brain into a petit 5'6" cyberhumanoid). Such radical transformations for a Mechanoid(akin to a human becoming a Japanese dragon-borg) likely have some incredible backstory, attendant adaptation problems, or a really resolute personality able to to handle the shock of taking on a new shape. I had a humanoid cyborg character who was really a renegade Mechanoid Runner who became convinced he was a cyborg superhero out to defend a planet of humans fro extraterrestrial threats.

[say652]

Ok back to Zero.

How many are allowed before psionic powers are affected?

[say652]

I used a Burster partial conversion borg for a few games.
I used the bionic weapon systems mostly, the master psionic part was more of a save bonus.

[say652]

At level 7 I was allowed to increase fire size a single fire breath 1D4x100md for one attack, my palm blast 4D6x10md but better range and aimed and called shots were possible.

[dragonfett]

RUE p. 47, Combat Cyborg point #8:

8. Cyborgs, Psionics, and Magic. Pisonics and ISP. A character who undergoes partial bionic reconstruction will retain his psi-powers but his available ISP is reduced by half. Full Conversion destroys all psionic abilities and ISP.

[Alrik Vas]

Is there a number of implants that it takes to be considered "partial conversion?"

[Nightmask]

Complicating matters is the example of the Mechanoids, who combine bionics with (presumably) genetically-engineered psionics. So, if one uses enough genetic engineering to radically alter an organism specifically for both bionics and mind abilities, although only after generations of guided design might you get something as powerful as the Mechanoids...or something less powerful and more complication-fraught in the shorter term(I'm already tackling this idea for a psionic cyborg type).
In the alternative, you can take an existing Mechanoid and radically alter their body shell to make them another form, like a humanoid(although size may impose certain constraints...you're not going to fit a made-over Brain into a petit 5'6" cyberhumanoid). Such radical transformations for a Mechanoid(akin to a human becoming a Japanese dragon-borg) likely have some incredible backstory, attendant adaptation problems, or a really resolute personality able to to handle the shock of taking on a new shape. I had a humanoid cyborg character who was really a renegade Mechanoid Runner who became convinced he was a cyborg superhero out to defend a planet of humans fro extraterrestrial threats.

There's also the small issue that they have implants that enhance and activate psionic potential, with the most commonly used combination of implants being used to create the Crazy (that and the TW versions create the mega-powerful Ultra-Crazy). So on the one hand supposedly implants or partial conversion depletes your psychic ability (Why? They're psychics not magic-users.) yet on the other implants can give someone a full range of psychic powers and abilities and I think Mindwerks even gives us some partial conversion psi-borgs, so why would conversion affect psychic powers or ISP at all?

[Shark_Force]

Is there a number of implants that it takes to be considered "partial conversion?"

pretty sure there's some vague guidelines in RUE about how many implants it takes to start harming your psionics. old RMB had some guidelines for when you become partial conversion as well, I think (but basically, a standard headhunter is apparently supposed to be a partial conversion iirc).

as to the partial 'borgs in mindwerks, those may take the partial 'borg conversion into account, since it's part of the OCC.

[guardiandashi]

my understanding is that a single arm or leg didn't matter that much, an artificial heart, lung or similar again no biggie, its when you start going more, both arms, both legs etc. that you started crossing the line to partial conversion. full conversion is there really isn't that much flesh left connected to all the metal.

with that said I keep thinking of the Shadowrun system where you have alpha beta and deltaware implants. If the implants are designed to integrate well (and often custom tweaked ) they may not mess up things like isp/magic as bad as off the shelf stuff does. the crazy/ psiwerks stuff may be exceptions to the general rule as it was specifically designed around not messing up or enhancing psi abilities.

[say652]

So the Warlords partial conversion is legit, for a 1/2 isp cost from rmb?

And a tw implant or two is within reason??

[Tor]

In RMB, partial conversion destroying magic and making you unable to use TW wasn't such a big deal, because originally I'm pretty sure partial conversion meant having all 4 limbs replaced and extensive modifications made to the core.

It seems like the scope of 'partial' has grown to the point where maybe even a single bionic limb would make you a partial borg though, which I don't like.

TW bionics are still TW so how they operate should still be able to inform us on how TW operates.

Rifts Canada's Momano Headhunter can start with as many as 2 cybernetic eyes, "bionic lung" (I guess the other lung is your original?), sensor forearm, 2 cybernetic implants, and a bionic limb with 2 features/weapons. Then you make a choice:
1) up to 5 other cybernetics, still not being a partial
2) You can select a 2nd bionic limb also with 2 features, but THIS makes you a partial borg (total: 2 bionic limbs, 1 bionic lung, 1 cybernetic forearm

Canada 124 also introduces a general statement (not limited to Momano) under 'Momano Psychics'

The duration, range and damage inflicted by the psionic powers of a Psychic Momano Headhunter (or any psychic character with more than 3 implants or one bionic limb, other than a bio-system) are reduced by half, and are obliterated by full, or near full, bionic conversion.

So this introduces additional penalties beyond losing 1/2 your ISP.

It does not mention cancelling out the 'partial borgs can't use TW devices' rule, but since many Momanos are built around using TW bionics, some might expect a note (under the option for them to gain a 2nd bionic limb and become a Partial Cyborg) explaining that they could not.

That said: not every "Common Momano Weapon" is actually a TW device. There is a full section of non-TW stuff that they use.

So I would say you could declare the 'no TW' rule still in effect, and that if you opted for the 2nd bionic limb, this would mean you couldn't use TW bionics. This would mean that someone who wanted to design a TWbionicsMomano should opt for the 3-5 more cybernetics instead of the 1 bionic.

[say652]

Calling chinese buffet rule on this.

1/2 isp seems legit, over complicating is just too discourage others.

[Tor]

Kev did introduce new penalties in Canada though, and yeah, it probably was to discourage psychic partial borgs.

[Alrik Vas]

So having some implants isn't really going to effect you, in order for there to be problems you have to start replacing limbs?

What's the cut off for magic? There's probably stuff in CWC and SoT series as I recall the CS giving prisoners implants to ruin their casting.

[Nightmask]

So having some implants isn't really going to effect you, in order for there to be problems you have to start replacing limbs?

What's the cut off for magic? There's probably stuff in CWC and SoT series as I recall the CS giving prisoners implants to ruin their casting.

Many of those implants were designed to negatively impact various components of spell-casting, like deliberately creating trouble concentrating or make it impossible to speak, rather than just 'let's stick some implants into them to make them have trouble working magic' (although that would end up a bonus on top of their normal function). Regular implants would give beneficial features after all and you don't do that with prisoners.

[eliakon]

So having some implants isn't really going to effect you, in order for there to be problems you have to start replacing limbs?

What's the cut off for magic? There's probably stuff in CWC and SoT series as I recall the CS giving prisoners implants to ruin their casting.

For magic the cut off is either 2 or 3 implants depending on the book your looking at.

[taalismn]

So having some implants isn't really going to effect you, in order for there to be problems you have to start replacing limbs?

What's the cut off for magic? There's probably stuff in CWC and SoT series as I recall the CS giving prisoners implants to ruin their casting.

Many of those implants were designed to negatively impact various components of spell-casting, like deliberately creating trouble concentrating or make it impossible to speak, rather than just 'let's stick some implants into them to make them have trouble working magic' (although that would end up a bonus on top of their normal function). Regular implants would give beneficial features after all and you don't do that with prisoners.

I was under the impression that, indeed, it was a case of 'let's stick foreign bodies inside the mages' bodies that screw up their casting abilities'. Any 'beneficial' effects would be negligible and at the CS's discretion, depending on what they meant to do with the prisoner....a functional ear implant, for example, would allow a battle-deafened POW just enough restored audio sense to be questioned, but turning it off would allow greater ease of inflicting sensory deprivation.

[say652]

Sooo, is a partial conversion psionic plausible???

Not a mage.

[Library Ogre]

This is one of those systems where gamers tend to demand specificity, and Palladium has traditionally avoided specificity.

Me, I'd be inclined to have each item have an ISP cost, in %, that reduces your total ISP. So if your character has 100 ISP and gets a device with a 5% ISP cost, you now have 95 effective ISP. When you hit the next level and would normally have 110 ISP, you only have 104.

Maybe at certain milestones (say, every 20%), you also lose access to a power.

[say652]

Super Soldier.
Latent psionic with Endoskeleton Replacement.
2 tw psionic Implants.
Delphi Juicer Psionic helmet.
Phaseworld psi helm.
Leb2 270 mdc four tw systems.
For the psionic abilities I really like the Psi Slayer.

[eliakon]

Super Soldier.
Latent psionic with Endoskeleton Replacement.
2 tw psionic Implants.
Delphi Juicer Psionic helmet.
Phaseworld psi helm.
Leb2 270 mdc four tw systems.
For the psionic abilities I really like the Psi Slayer.

To be honest I would say that Endokeleton Replacement is effectively full bionic conversion.
you get a new skeleton, robotic muscles, plus new eyes, nose, ears, tongue, cosmetic implants, survivability implants......
This is WAY more invasive than a couple cybernetic limbs.

[Nightmask]

Super Soldier.
Latent psionic with Endoskeleton Replacement.
2 tw psionic Implants.
Delphi Juicer Psionic helmet.
Phaseworld psi helm.
Leb2 270 mdc four tw systems.
For the psionic abilities I really like the Psi Slayer.

To be honest I would say that Endokeleton Replacement is effectively full bionic conversion.
you get a new skeleton, robotic muscles, plus new eyes, nose, ears, tongue, cosmetic implants, survivability implants......
This is WAY more invasive than a couple cybernetic limbs.

At most that would be Partial, you still keep most to all of your organs including your muscles to be a full conversion the most flesh you have left is little more than the brain and spinal cord.

[say652]

Super Soldier, powers unlimited.
Psi Slayer, with reinforced skeleton, tw Bionic implants, uncanny targeting and throwing, physical transformation.
Mutant traits: Stocky, ambidextrous.

[say652]

I am also liking the Endoskeleten enhancement that would go nice with a Zapper.

[Zurmash]

I really wish I could find my posts from 12 years ago, but lost my login info from then. I came up with a formula for this based on stats for MDC of body armor. Main body 50%, and so on. It seemed to make sense. I'm sure you smart folks could see how I was reasoning it out. And I had so many neat things written that died on my pals computer.

[Mack]

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