Particle beams??

[say652]

Under the new rules, harms Invulnerable supers, bypasses most immunity to energy powers, and supernatural creatures.
Do they work on dr zombies or vampires??

[Fell]

Not sure what "new rules" exactly says but I'd say no to them doing damage to Zombies or Vampires.

Besides, part of the fun in my DR / CE game was when the Players used High tech stuff on Zombies and then realized they needed "lower tech" to fight them

[drewkitty ~..~]

RFI: What "new" rules are you talking about? Book, page?
-------
Vampires...no, Vamps are immune to all mundane damage except that which is delivered from silver and wood. Just bypassing an immunity to energy damage is not going to cut it.
(note: The above sentences was about damage from mundane; non-magic, non-mystical, non-psionic, non-superpower, non-supernatural; causes. Which is in line with the Topic OP.)

Unless the 'new' rules say something about them using Silver Ions for the partical beams (I don't know why PB is not calling them Ion Beams anymore. Maybe Ion Blaster has lost it's coolness factor over the years.) there is no ground to stand on when talking about them hurting vampires.
-------
Zombies....depends on what the "new" rule says in it's RAW form an which type of zombie is being talked about.
I am unable to answer this any further without reading the text being referenced by the question.

[Killer Cyborg]

Under the new rules, harms Invulnerable supers, bypasses most immunity to energy powers, and supernatural creatures.
Do they work on dr zombies or vampires??

There is no official answer to that.

[say652]

So, gm discretion then. Similar to a Cosmo knights blast.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So, gm discretion then. Similar to a Cosmo knights blast.

You have not answered the RFI you were asked.

[say652]

It was a forums topic, first in hu then in rifts.

Trying to pick gear, looking for an official ruling on the overall effectiveness of particle beam weapins.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It was a forums topic, first in hu then in rifts.

Trying to pick gear, looking for an official ruling on the overall effectiveness of particle beam weapins.

RFI: What "new" rules are you talking about? Book, page?

I asked for information about where the text you are talking about are in a published PB gamebook..

[say652]

New to my knowledge.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually, Those are the Old Rules, they came out in the Heroes Unlimited Game Masters Guide in 1999 that P-beam weapons do half damage to invunerable characters.

However, the New-New rules released in Northern Gun 1 state that particle beams do not damage creatures invunerable to it such as vampires, werewolves, and mummies explictly.

Taken togeather, it seems that Particle beams DO bypass the Invunerable superpower, but NOT other forms of being impervious to nonmagical damage.

[glitterboy2098]

Probably referring to how in HU2 particle beams are the only mundane weapon able to harm characters with the 'invincibility' super power.

This however does not carry to any other of PB's games. Invincibility in rifts gives the character natural MDC, and particle beams do not have any special traits against limited invulnerability type monsters like vamps and werewolves, to my knowledge.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, Those are the Old Rules. the New-New rules released in Northern Gun 1 state that particle beams do not damage creatures invunerable to it such as vampires, werewolves, and mummies explictly.

Neat!

Got a direct quote and a page number?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually, Those are the Old Rules. the New-New rules released in Northern Gun 1 state that particle beams do not damage creatures invunerable to it such as vampires, werewolves, and mummies explictly.

Neat!

Got a direct quote and a page number?

Yea, look for it under any particle beam weapon printed in Northern Gun 1, they're all in the table of contents

Or just look on page 202, it's re-printed several times on that page right after the damage listing for each gun.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, Those are the Old Rules. the New-New rules released in Northern Gun 1 state that particle beams do not damage creatures invunerable to it such as vampires, werewolves, and mummies explictly.

Neat!

Got a direct quote and a page number?

Yea, look for it under any particle beam weapon printed in Northern Gun 1, they're all in the table of contents

Or just look on page 202, it's re-printed several times on that page right after the damage listing for each gun.

I don't have that book, so I can't look.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Actually, Those are the Old Rules, they came out in the Heroes Unlimited Game Masters Guide in 1999 that P-beam weapons do half damage to invulnerable characters.

However, the New-New rules released in Northern Gun 1 state that particle beams do not damage creatures invulnerable to it such as vampires, werewolves, and mummies explicitly.

Taken together, it seems that Particle beams DO bypass the Invulnerable superpower, but NOT other forms of being impervious to nonmagical damage.

Thank you NS.
And after reading the text I agree with you that it only means that those with the Inv. Super Power take half damage from Part. Beams. Because that is what it says.

Zombies: how I would rule it would be that unless the zombie is directly hit by the full beam it is not effected by the damage. Even then it "might" come back/regenerate if there are bits and pieces left over from being blasted because the head and body were not 'burned separately'.
-------------
For reference, the HUGMG text is located on page 216 very last line of the Part. beam entry.
-------------
I will have to trust you all about what the NG1 book says cause I don't have it, yet.

[guardiandashi]

there are 2 aspects going on:
1st particle beams are NOT the same as ion blasters, technically ion blasters are 1 specific sub variant of the particle beam family. However in palladium they are different.
a particle beam consists of 2 variations of the family, they fire highly accelerated "beams" of sub atomic particles that fall into the proton or neutron families (charged particle beams, or neutral particle beams) these do damage through a combination of high thermal energy transfer and impact, which is why they bypass most impervious to .... such as impervious to energy, etc. the exception being things like vampires that have essentially impervious to "everything" except...

ion blasters fire the "other" sub atomic particle highly accelerated electrons (at least in palladium)

[drewkitty ~..~]

*warning using real world physics*
To move a particle with EM it has to have a charge on it....which means they fire ions. Ions are both the electrons and atomic nuclei containing protons and protons. An Ion 'guns' that use EM fields to shoot the ions would shoot both in ether alternating pulses or pulses of single charge Proton+/electron-. This is The Why I don't get the distinction between Particle guns and Ion guns for weapons on rifts earth, other then maybe the perceived coolness factor between the two.

In the 3G I can see a neutron Particle beam using gravtics. But since neutrons are electrically neutral they can't be manipulated by EM fields. (which is why nuclear plants use a large mass physical shielding instead of a mag field.
------
So what you are saying is that those weapons that are known as Particle beam fire Neutron beams?

[flatline]

*warning using real world physics*
To move a particle with EM it has to have a charge on it....which means they fire ions. Ions are both the electrons and atomic nuclei containing protons and protons. An Ion 'guns' that use EM fields to shoot the ions would shoot both in ether alternating pulses or pulses of single charge Proton+/electron-. This is The Why I don't get the distinction between Particle guns and Ion guns for weapons on rifts earth, other then maybe the perceived coolness factor between the two.

Actually, you can accelerate an ion and then neutralize it by adding or removing an electron as appropriate before it leaves the weapon which results in a particle beam of neutral particles.

In my game, ion beams are particle beams that can be deflected by magnetic fields and, as such, are considered to be poor man's particle beams. "Particle beams" are neutral and so can not be deflected by simple magnetic fields.

Both do kinetic damage in my game but neither harms invulnerable characters who are immune to kinetic damage.

[eliakon]

I would say that they shoot beams of 'particles' as opposed to beams of 'ions'.....
Since the physics of the game only have the most vuage and tangential relationship to real world physics.....I mean we have particle beams that move in spirals, beams of 'kinetic impact force', cold beams, lasers with recoil, and even less plausible stuff. With all the weird stuff out there I don't really see any reason to even pretend that some (or any) of the energy weapons make any sort of sense and instead just sort of run with it

(Note at least in Aliens Unlimited you can have 'magnetic particle coatings' that provide protection from Particle Beams)

[guardiandashi]

*warning using real world physics*
To move a particle with EM it has to have a charge on it....which means they fire ions. Ions are both the electrons and atomic nuclei containing protons and protons. An Ion 'guns' that use EM fields to shoot the ions would shoot both in ether alternating pulses or pulses of single charge Proton+/electron-. This is The Why I don't get the distinction between Particle guns and Ion guns for weapons on rifts earth, other then maybe the perceived coolness factor between the two.

In the 3G I can see a neutron Particle beam using gravtics. But since neutrons are electrically neutral they can't be manipulated by EM fields. (which is why nuclear plants use a large mass physical shielding instead of a mag field.
------
So what you are saying is that those weapons that are known as Particle beam fire Neutron beams?

no I was making the distinction that in palladium an "ion" blaster fires a beam of ELECTRONS ONLY.

a particle beam fires "beams" of atom nucleus material IE some variation of protons, and or neutrons with the NET charge of the beam being either neutral or positive.

if you want to think of it the right way... the "ion drives" that NASA is working on is a really really weak and inefficient particle beam. now jack it up to the point that the stream of stuff coming out of it can actually do damage, (and get it so its at least semi portable) and you have a form of particle beam or ion blaster.

if you look at it the right way any of us who had an old crt tv or monitor had a really basic and effectively non damaging ion blaster.

[eliakon]

*warning using real world physics*
To move a particle with EM it has to have a charge on it....which means they fire ions. Ions are both the electrons and atomic nuclei containing protons and protons. An Ion 'guns' that use EM fields to shoot the ions would shoot both in ether alternating pulses or pulses of single charge Proton+/electron-. This is The Why I don't get the distinction between Particle guns and Ion guns for weapons on rifts earth, other then maybe the perceived coolness factor between the two.

In the 3G I can see a neutron Particle beam using gravtics. But since neutrons are electrically neutral they can't be manipulated by EM fields. (which is why nuclear plants use a large mass physical shielding instead of a mag field.
------
So what you are saying is that those weapons that are known as Particle beam fire Neutron beams?

no I was making the distinction that in palladium an "ion" blaster fires a beam of ELECTRONS ONLY.

Except that nothing in any book that I am aware of says that ion blasters shoot electrons (i.e. electricity)
Coupled with the fact that we have several electrical weapons.....
I am going to say that no, Ion beams =/= electron beams

a particle beam fires "beams" of atom nucleus material IE some variation of protons, and or neutrons with the NET charge of the beam being either neutral or positive.

Again not actually supported by any book.
They could shoot all SORTS of things and still be 'particle beams'
They could shoot mesons, or gluons, or any other sub-atomic particle and still be a beam of particles yes?

if you want to think of it the right way... the "ion drives" that NASA is working on is a really really weak and inefficient particle beam. now jack it up to the point that the stream of stuff coming out of it can actually do damage, (and get it so its at least semi portable) and you have a form of particle beam or ion blaster.

Except that its not the "right way" its just a way. As far as I know there is nothing what so ever in any book to support the claim that either ion weapons or particle weapons work on any such principle. Its a nice house rule that you can use to explain things in your game.....but there isn't a shred of evidence to support that it is in any way, shape, or form, the official way. Though it could be related to ion weapons since there is an Ion drive in the game...

if you look at it the right way any of us who had an old crt tv or monitor had a really basic and effectively non damaging ion blaster.

Yes if we choose to look at it a certain way, and make certain assumptions, and define certain game terms to mean certain things then sure.....
But in the Palladium Universe it may or may not be true since the definitions of Ion Beam is ill defined.

[drewkitty ~..~]

What I see is the same type of weapon with two differing levels of power and two different names of differing "coolness" levels.

Listed by damage ratings they would generally fall as... ion pistol, part. pistol, ion rifle, part. rifle.
------
The only mundane smallarm in canon I can think of that "shoots electricity" is the Zapper Gun in the JU (WB10) page 74. Where are the others eli?

[13eowulf]

Since it has come up the text in NG1, found under the Mega-Damge section of every particle beam weapon (pages 201-203) reads:

Vampires, Werebeasts and mummies are impervious.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since it has come up the text in NG1, found under the Mega-Damge section of every particle beam weapon (pages 201-203) reads:

Vampires, Werebeasts and mummies are impervious.

Thanks!

Nothing about general beings who are Impervious to Energy?

[ShadowLogan]

Under the new rules, harms Invulnerable supers, bypasses most immunity to energy powers, and supernatural creatures.
Do they work on dr zombies or vampires??

In terms of damage, not likely. What these weapons CAN DO POTENTIALLY is have a knock-back effect due to impact. There are some examples in some of the newer books (I know 2E RT has it for large mecha system, but not sure about man-size, and IIRC Triax2 particle weapons get this feature also) that grant particle beam weapons this feature at a certain scale, which could apply to all particle beam weapons.

no I was making the distinction that in palladium an "ion" blaster fires a beam of ELECTRONS ONLY.

Based on what from the books please? I know of two references in my entire Palladium Book collection, but neither mention electrons/electricity specifically and the few I did find any mention qualify it as "energy" and not "electricity" (or the flow of electrons) though "energy" could be used synonymously:
-in RT 1E (which may not apply to Rifts as terminology may be forced upon them by HG, though in 1E days they had a lot more flexibility), the ID-4 Ion Blaster (BK#4 and IINM RT2 Sentinels main book)
-in Rifts the only Ion weapons I could find that even suggest what is being fired is the M-160 Assault Rifle in Underseas (pg116), but even there it "fires energy 'packets' that explode on contact with a solid object".
-the only other Rifts reference I know of is RMB TW example/rules concerning magic converted Ion Blasters, but that is TWdry and may not be true outside of that realm (since Particle Beams can't be manipulated by TW at the time, and Plasma weapons result more in "fire" than "plasma" IMHO)

if you want to think of it the right way... the "ion drives" that NASA is working on is a really really weak and inefficient particle beam. now jack it up to the point that the stream of stuff coming out of it can actually do damage, (and get it so its at least semi portable) and you have a form of particle beam or ion blaster.

Actually the correct way to think of ion drives would be closer to a low energy plasma (which is nothing more than ionized gas) than a particle beam IMHO.

What I see is the same type of weapon with two differing levels of power and two different names of differing "coolness" levels.

I sort of agree and disagree. To me Particle, Ion, and Plasma weapons are all related in the sense of basic operating principle (though here one can include Rail guns, and if we are being even more basic gravity types in terms of pure tech), but they are also each in their own independent category and with their own sub-types based on what they accelerate, just like lasers fall into several categories and sub-types. And that is even avoiding the Tri-Beam in SA2 (which is presented as a hybrid of 3 completely different types) as belonging to any of these.

The only mundane smallarm in canon I can think of that "shoots electricity" is the Zapper Gun in the JU (WB10) page 74. Where are the others eli?

Stun type weapons IINM fall into the shoot electricity, but neither of these examples say they are Ion AFAIK:
-pg245 RMB, it says "energy" and not electricity, but IMHO the premise is the same if energy is meant to be a synonym for electricity
-Japan's AT-23 Rifle on pg124 does mention electricity, and the (Bionic Weapon System) Stun Blaster on pg112 refers back to AT-23. Of note the Bionic Weapon System has both an AT-23 version AND a separate Ion Blaster (which to me suggests Ion Blasters do not shoot electricity unless there is some synonym use going on, or Palladium used different names to distinguish between the two in an attempt to not cause confusion).

There are a few more stun weapons (PW SB1, SA1 Manoan) I know of off hand, but they are either vague in wording or operate on a different principle (TW, sonic).

Actually, you can accelerate an ion and then neutralize it by adding or removing an electron as appropriate before it leaves the weapon which results in a particle beam of neutral particles.

Wouldn't that result be closer to a low energy plasma though, since plasma is an ionized gas. That is basically what Ion Rocket Engines do, they neutralize the ionized gas before it leaves the engine's nozzle.

[drewkitty ~..~]

What I see is the same type of weapon with two differing levels of power and two different names of differing "coolness" levels.

I sort of agree and disagree. To me Particle, Ion, and Plasma weapons are all related in the sense of basic operating principle (though here one can include Rail guns, and if we are being even more basic gravity types in terms of pure tech), but they are also each in their own independent category and with their own sub-types based on what they accelerate, just like lasers fall into several categories and sub-types. And that is even avoiding the Tri-Beam in SA2 (which is presented as a hybrid of 3 completely different types) as belonging to any of these.

I intentionally didn't bring up plasma beam weapons because there are more heat related even thou plasma is just a bunch of hot Ions. And there are at least three different types of plasma weapons that only one of which is related to other ion beam weapons. (beam, cartridge, and super napalm)

The only mundane smallarm in canon I can think of that "shoots electricity" is the Zapper Gun in the JU (WB10) page 74. Where are the others eli?

Stun type weapons IINM fall into the shoot electricity, but neither of these examples say they are Ion AFAIK:
-pg. 245 RMB, it says "energy" and not electricity, but IMHO the premise is the same if energy is meant to be a synonym for electricity
-Japan's AT-23 Rifle on pg. 124 does mention electricity, and the (Bionic Weapon System) Stun Blaster on pg. 112 refers back to AT-23. Of note the Bionic Weapon System has both an AT-23 version AND a separate Ion Blaster (which to me suggests Ion Blasters do not shoot electricity unless there is some synonym use going on, or Palladium used different names to distinguish between the two in an attempt to not cause confusion).

There are a few more stun weapons (PW SB1, SA1 Manoan) I know of off hand, but they are either vague in wording or operate on a different principle (TW, sonic).

And the majority of those you just listed are "stun" weapons....
And I intentionally excluded any 'magic' weapons to avoid the plethora of mystical items and the 'can of worms' talking about them could lead into.

possibility examples.....
◆I've made for a new psionic power category as an example of what could be done with the psi-tech device creation rules a pistol that shoots electricity.
◆I have a tech mage (Not TW) that is trying to develop an electrical damage booster for any type of ion weapon. But she is having trouble with the periphery enchantments.

[flatline]

Actually, you can accelerate an ion and then neutralize it by adding or removing an electron as appropriate before it leaves the weapon which results in a particle beam of neutral particles.

Wouldn't that result be closer to a low energy plasma though, since plasma is an ionized gas. That is basically what Ion Rocket Engines do, they neutralize the ionized gas before it leaves the engine's nozzle.

It depends on how much you accelerate the ion. As I recall, the threshold for considering it a particle beam is somewhere in the vicinity of 0.08-0.13c but I can't remember where I read that. if I have time tonight, I'll try to hunt for a citation. There's a reason for that cut-off, but I can't remember what it is right now.

--flatline

[eliakon]

What I see is the same type of weapon with two differing levels of power and two different names of differing "coolness" levels.

Listed by damage ratings they would generally fall as... ion pistol, part. pistol, ion rifle, part. rifle.
------
The only mundane smallarm in canon I can think of that "shoots electricity" is the Zapper Gun in the JU (WB10) page 74. Where are the others eli?

There are some in the HU game line. But they are important for this discussion since they are specifically described as electrical weapons and not Ion weapons.
For reference they are carried by Electron found on page 128 of the Heroes Unlimited Game Masters Guide.

Of more import is page 173 of Aliens Unlimited "Particle beams and ion blasters use accelerated charged particles in a tight destructive beam....Stun weapons include tasers and other electrical-based devices....."

In fact the only connection between Ion Weapons and Electricity is that in the RMB ion weapons were converted into lightning guns....
Which means that one thing was turned into another thing.
Something that is no longer the case (there are TW Ion guns....and Particle Beam guns....)

[13eowulf]

Since it has come up the text in NG1, found under the Mega-Damge section of every particle beam weapon (pages 201-203) reads:

Vampires, Werebeasts and mummies are impervious.

Thanks!

Nothing about general beings who are Impervious to Energy?

Not a thing.

[eliakon]

Since it has come up the text in NG1, found under the Mega-Damge section of every particle beam weapon (pages 201-203) reads:

Vampires, Werebeasts and mummies are impervious.

Thanks!

Nothing about general beings who are Impervious to Energy?

Not a thing.

Why would you need it?
Particle Beams are energy weapons
Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to energy weapons
Ergo Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to particle beams

[Killer Cyborg]

Nothing about general beings who are Impervious to Energy?

Not a thing.

Why would you need it?
Particle Beams are energy weapons
Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to energy weapons
Ergo Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to particle beams

Right.

Except that the exact same argument is used here:
Particle Beams are energy weapons.
Invulnerability makes you impervious to energy weapons.
Ergo, Invulnerability makes you impervious to particle beams.

And we know that the conclusion in that case is false, which means that there might be other cases where it is also false.
Being Impervious To Energy is no long necessarily a sufficient factor to make one impervious to particle beams.

[eliakon]

Nothing about general beings who are Impervious to Energy?

Not a thing.

Why would you need it?
Particle Beams are energy weapons
Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to energy weapons
Ergo Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to particle beams

Right.

Except that the exact same argument is used here:
Particle Beams are energy weapons.
Invulnerability makes you impervious to energy weapons.
Ergo, Invulnerability makes you impervious to particle beams.

And we know that the conclusion in that case is false, which means that there might be other cases where it is also false.
Being Impervious To Energy is no long necessarily a sufficient factor to make one impervious to particle beams.

It is such a sufficient factor that it had to be explicitly spelled out as being not the case.
Just because there is one (spelled out) exception to a general rule does not mean that the rule no longer exists at all. Just that in one highly specific, unique case the rule is different.
Thus the rule is "if you are immune to energy weapons you are immune to particle beams unless that immunity is from the Invulnerability super power. In that one specific case then you are not immune because we said so."
Just like the fact that vampires are immune to normal weapons, but take damage from water does not mean that water harms all things that are immune to normal weapons.

[say652]

So it is fine to keep it energy.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nothing about general beings who are Impervious to Energy?

Not a thing.

Why would you need it?
Particle Beams are energy weapons
Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to energy weapons
Ergo Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to particle beams

Right.

Except that the exact same argument is used here:
Particle Beams are energy weapons.
Invulnerability makes you impervious to energy weapons.
Ergo, Invulnerability makes you impervious to particle beams.

And we know that the conclusion in that case is false, which means that there might be other cases where it is also false.
Being Impervious To Energy is no long necessarily a sufficient factor to make one impervious to particle beams.

It is such a sufficient factor that it had to be explicitly spelled out as being not the case.
Just because there is one (spelled out) exception to a general rule does not mean that the rule no longer exists at all. Just that in one highly specific, unique case the rule is different.
Thus the rule is "if you are immune to energy weapons you are immune to particle beams unless that immunity is from the Invulnerability super power. In that one specific case then you are not immune because we said so."
Just like the fact that vampires are immune to normal weapons, but take damage from water does not mean that water harms all things that are immune to normal weapons.

No.
If particle beams were a specific vulnerability for Invulnerable characters, then that would be expected to be listed under the Invulnerability power itself.
But it wasn't--it was listed as an aspect of particle beams that they could do partial damage to Invulnerable characters, in spite of such characters being Impervious to Energy. It's a comment on the nature of Particle beams, not on the nature of Invulnerability. The explanation given by the writer was that the reason was that a particle beam is "basically a disintegration beam," and that indicates an overall difference from other energy weapons, not simple a difference of "they're specifically good at harming specific characters."

Now if the indication was false, or if it has been retconned away, that's cool. But the indication IS there.

[Tor]

I remember one case of some kind of impervious to energy power taking only 1D6 MD from particle beams but I can't remember where I saw it because I spent all day moving furniture and I'm tired.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nothing about general beings who are Impervious to Energy?

Not a thing.

Why would you need it?
Particle Beams are energy weapons
Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to energy weapons
Ergo Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to particle beams

Right.

Except that the exact same argument is used here:
Particle Beams are energy weapons.
Invulnerability makes you impervious to energy weapons.
Ergo, Invulnerability makes you impervious to particle beams.

And we know that the conclusion in that case is false, which means that there might be other cases where it is also false.
Being Impervious To Energy is no long necessarily a sufficient factor to make one impervious to particle beams.

I have to disagree, due to the way exceptions work.

The HU GMG says that characters with the Invunerability superpower take half damage from particle beams.

It lists a new weakness in the power that was not present before.

It does nothing to effect any other instance of being impervious to energy weapons.

[say652]

So, if faced with an undead horde breathing down your neck, no back up in range, is it unreasonable to have particle weapons deal 1/2 damage??

[Nightmask]

So, if faced with an undead horde breathing down your neck, no back up in range, is it unreasonable to have particle weapons deal 1/2 damage??

Yes, because they aren't vulnerable to energy weapons including particle beams. Just because you don't have a weapon that'll work on something doesn't mean you just shrug and go 'well then I guess this one should get to do half damage instead if no damage'. If it doesn't work it doesn't work.

[eliakon]

What I see is the same type of weapon with two differing levels of power and two different names of differing "coolness" levels.

I sort of agree and disagree. To me Particle, Ion, and Plasma weapons are all related in the sense of basic operating principle (though here one can include Rail guns, and if we are being even more basic gravity types in terms of pure tech), but they are also each in their own independent category and with their own sub-types based on what they accelerate, just like lasers fall into several categories and sub-types. And that is even avoiding the Tri-Beam in SA2 (which is presented as a hybrid of 3 completely different types) as belonging to any of these.

I intentionally didn't bring up plasma beam weapons because there are more heat related even thou plasma is just a bunch of hot Ions. And there are at least three different types of plasma weapons that only one of which is related to other ion beam weapons. (beam, cartridge, and super napalm)

The only mundane smallarm in canon I can think of that "shoots electricity" is the Zapper Gun in the JU (WB10) page 74. Where are the others eli?

Stun type weapons IINM fall into the shoot electricity, but neither of these examples say they are Ion AFAIK:
-pg. 245 RMB, it says "energy" and not electricity, but IMHO the premise is the same if energy is meant to be a synonym for electricity
-Japan's AT-23 Rifle on pg. 124 does mention electricity, and the (Bionic Weapon System) Stun Blaster on pg. 112 refers back to AT-23. Of note the Bionic Weapon System has both an AT-23 version AND a separate Ion Blaster (which to me suggests Ion Blasters do not shoot electricity unless there is some synonym use going on, or Palladium used different names to distinguish between the two in an attempt to not cause confusion).

There are a few more stun weapons (PW SB1, SA1 Manoan) I know of off hand, but they are either vague in wording or operate on a different principle (TW, sonic).

And the majority of those you just listed are "stun" weapons....
And I intentionally excluded any 'magic' weapons to avoid the plethora of mystical items and the 'can of worms' talking about them could lead into.

possibility examples.....
◆I've made for a new psionic power category as an example of what could be done with the psi-tech device creation rules a pistol that shoots electricity.
◆I have a tech mage (Not TW) that is trying to develop an electrical damage booster for any type of ion weapon. But she is having trouble with the periphery enchantments.

We see that stun weapons are electrical in Aliens Unlimited

[drewkitty ~..~]

We see that stun weapons are electrical in Aliens Unlimited

Some are, yes.

[eliakon]

We see that stun weapons are electrical in Aliens Unlimited

Some are, yes.

Okay let me rephrase that
that there is a class of stun weapons that is electrical.

Which is rather important because while there is overlap between electrical and stun there is no overlap between electrical and ion nor ion and stun.

[Tor]

Managed to follow my memory tidbits to what I was thinking of.

Coalition Wars: Rifts Siege on Tolkeen Book 1 (Sedition) page 71 mentions (within the Techno-Wizardry Vehicles' "TW Converted Vehicles" section beginning on page 68) a variation of the "Impervious to Energy" feature initially present in Rifts Main Book (where I believe it functioned mostly like the spell except it protected the vehicle not the user).

It happens to mention in that feature's description:

particle beam weapons inflict 1D6 M.D. damage (roughly 15% of normal).

It doesn't go into detail why but I assume it's for similar to do with having an impact-based nature to it which is not energy.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nothing about general beings who are Impervious to Energy?

Not a thing.

Why would you need it?
Particle Beams are energy weapons
Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to energy weapons
Ergo Impervious to Energy makes you impervious to particle beams

Right.

Except that the exact same argument is used here:
Particle Beams are energy weapons.
Invulnerability makes you impervious to energy weapons.
Ergo, Invulnerability makes you impervious to particle beams.

And we know that the conclusion in that case is false, which means that there might be other cases where it is also false.
Being Impervious To Energy is no long necessarily a sufficient factor to make one impervious to particle beams.

I have to disagree, due to the way exceptions work.

The HU GMG says that characters with the Invunerability superpower take half damage from particle beams.

It lists a new weakness in the power that was not present before.

It does nothing to effect any other instance of being impervious to energy weapons.

HUGMG 216
Under "Particle Beam Rifle"
Note: Particle beams even damage invulnerable characters, but does half damage.

That's a description of the weapon, not of the power.
That's a reference to the high-end of damage possibilities, not to a sole vulnerability.

If the passage had read, "particle beams even damage Superman, but do half damage," that would NOT mean that Superman is specifically weak against particle beams, nor would it mean that only Superman takes 1/2 damage from the weapons.
"EVEN damage invulnerable characters" is not the same as "Only/specifically damage invulnerable characters."

[Killer Cyborg]

Managed to follow my memory tidbits to what I was thinking of.

Coalition Wars: Rifts Siege on Tolkeen Book 1 (Sedition) page 71 mentions (within the Techno-Wizardry Vehicles' "TW Converted Vehicles" section beginning on page 68) a variation of the "Impervious to Energy" feature initially present in Rifts Main Book (where I believe it functioned mostly like the spell except it protected the vehicle not the user).

It happens to mention in that feature's description:

particle beam weapons inflict 1D6 M.D. damage (roughly 15% of normal).

Good find!

It doesn't go into detail why but I assume it's for similar to do with having an impact-based nature to it which is not energy.

In a vacuum, that would make sense... but we also know that particle beam weapons affect Invulnerable characters, who are impervious to both energy and to physical attacks.
It seems like Palladium at least sometimes considers particle beam damage to count as something other than energy, and as something other than physical.
An author explained the weapon's ability to damage invulnerable characters as being because the weapon is (quoted from memory) "basically a disintegration beam," and it's possible that Palladium considers disintegration to be its own damage type.

[Killer Cyborg]

So, if faced with an undead horde breathing down your neck, no back up in range, is it unreasonable to have particle weapons deal 1/2 damage??

Well, Vampires and Mummies are officially impervious.
Seems logical that if Mummies are impervious to particle beams, then zombies would be as well... but it looks like that'd be a GM's call.
Same with other types of undead.

[say652]

As mainly an Hero's Unlimited player, if it harms INVULNERABLE characters then EVERYTHING takes half damage from particle weapons.

That is a house rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

As mainly an Hero's Unlimited player, if it harms INVULNERABLE characters then EVERYTHING takes half damage from particle weapons.

That is a house rule.

[ShadowLogan]

I intentionally didn't bring up plasma beam weapons because there are more heat related even thou plasma is just a bunch of hot Ions. And there are at least three different types of plasma weapons that only one of which is related to other ion beam weapons. (beam, cartridge, and super napalm)

I agree it (Plasma & non-Particle/Ion weapons) doesn't need to be brought up, but at the same time they also show that it can be a bit more complex because there could be multiple sub-types, some with their own take on operation (we've got Standard Lasers (with sub-types for blue-green and variable freq), Chemical Lasers, Free Electron lasers, X-RAY Lasers, Wilk's laser "cartridges that all come to mind). So even if a weapon is "Particle" or "Ion" based, there can be sub-types with some variation that can further muddy the issue.

And the majority of those you just listed are "stun" weapons....
And I intentionally excluded any 'magic' weapons to avoid the plethora of mystical items and the 'can of worms' talking about them could lead into.

I am responding to the part about "shoots electricity", nothing about your statement requires it to be non-stun (at the point it was made). Yes they are Stun Weapons (found a few more in HU2E main book in the Bionics Category, but THEY are not stun), but they are described in terms of energy and or electricity being shot which IS what you basically asked for.

While I mentioned magic, I do agree they aren't useful for a tech description. I am merely noting that such examples are out there in the stun category, so if one goes looking one is not surprised to find "stun" weapons that do not operate via electricity.

It depends on how much you accelerate the ion. As I recall, the threshold for considering it a particle beam is somewhere in the vicinity of 0.08-0.13c but I can't remember where I read that. if I have time tonight, I'll try to hunt for a citation. There's a reason for that cut-off, but I can't remember what it is right now.

I'm not saying that a particle beam can't be neutralized the same way an Ion Rocket engine can (which is done purposefully), but the result would seem to make it less of a what one might think/expect of as a particle beam in the end product (which is part of the question, what makes a Palladium Particle Weapon System a Particle Weapon System and not an Ion Weapon System).

[guardiandashi]

maybe I was confused or misremembering when I was stating ion weapons as firing electron beams. Note an electron beam is not actually the same as electricity. the difference in large part has to do with the nature of the beast.

I am going to take a step back and define terms and concepts a little bit better.

plasma by definition is atoms that have been heated, and otherwise modified so they are missing electrons. these will have a net positive charge. sometimes significantly so depending on the specific atoms turned into plasma. in general atoms low on the atomic scale are used as the "fuel or ammo" for these weapons sometimes just atmospheric gasses. however there is no inherent reason you couldn't design a particle or plasma weapon that used silver as its ammo other than difficulty and expense.

in general "plasma" weapons take a whole bunch of plasma (generated a variety of ways) and "lob or throw it" at a target at relatively low speeds with the net effect being a whole bunch of heat, and burning the target which is why it is also commonly referred to as a sort of "super napalm"

Particle beams in general take "particles" and accelerate them to relativistic speeds (some significant fraction of the speed of light) or speeds best measured in relation to the speed of light. the Name of the weapon implies the general nature of the particle beam. There are charged and neutral particle beams. neutral particle beams have their particles, and or particle "bolt" end up having a net neutral charge. in reality if we could get these to work... they would tend to have the longest range of any particle beam as the "bolt" would have the least tendency to dissipate.
the charged particle beams will have either a positive net charge or negative net charge again depending on the nature of the "ammo"
Proton bolt beams are plasmas accelerated to particle beam speeds, and more "defined" beam structure in essence they could be considered a plasma laser, although that is not completely accurate either. these will tend to have a positive charge sometimes significantly so and due to the whole like charges repel the beam/bolt with tend to dissipate relatively rapidly.

Ion beams are also charged particle beams but they are heavily negatively charged they have all the advantages and disadvantages of a positive beam, except that they have an abundance (or super abundance) of electrons in essence someone jammed lots of extra electrons onto an atom before accelerating it, OR went with the other simpler variation and just fired a "laser like beam" that is just lots and lots of electrons being used like bullets.

one point is that in many ways a particle beam is a really evil weapon concept when you get right down to it. its a cross between a laser, a ballistic weapon, and a nuclear weapon all at the same time. The laser aspects are due to the nature of the fired shot, the ballistic weapon is due to it actually firing mass although tiny amounts at super high velocities, and the nuclear weapon is due to the fact that in some cases it could trigger nuclear reactions of various types in the targets struck, mostly this would be just burning and irradiation (making it radioactive) but it is theoretically possible it could trigger some fusion or fission reactions as well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Managed to follow my memory tidbits to what I was thinking of.

Coalition Wars: Rifts Siege on Tolkeen Book 1 (Sedition) page 71 mentions (within the Techno-Wizardry Vehicles' "TW Converted Vehicles" section beginning on page 68) a variation of the "Impervious to Energy" feature initially present in Rifts Main Book (where I believe it functioned mostly like the spell except it protected the vehicle not the user).

It happens to mention in that feature's description:

particle beam weapons inflict 1D6 M.D. damage (roughly 15% of normal).

Good find!

...snip

Don't you just Love how KS just twists things enough so his pet Baddy Empire can win?

And we now go into that time when bubbles burst.....Because of where the text is found it, the text is only applicable to the spell 'Impervious to Energy'.

So this sort of makes Particle beam weapons sort of like Psi-Swords...is both a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Energy beam/Kinetic attack and physical/mystical respectively.

Most super powers will be able to "Somehow" ether reduce the damage or eliminate the damage done by Part beams. Yes, some are tactics, while others are using real world meanings of the words for them to be mentioned, so don't get upset.
This would be done via, dodging/parrying with bonuses, being invulnerable/ immune to energy or kinetic or radiation attacks. Adapting to the energy or absorbing and redirecting the Energy or Kinetic energy, dodging into a portal, doorway or extra-dimensional space, or from the Effects of rolling under a Natural AR. Then there is dodging via puddling effects and being fully or partly intangible.
Then there are powers that mess with the shooter's ability to shoot the hero and those that mess with the weapon's ability to work. Most of these are range dependent

Radiation Note: there are two types Light/EM and Particle. Particle Radiation is made of sub-atomic particles and is what is referencing to in the books when they say radiation. And we are all in agreement that Particle beams shoot out sub-atomic particles. Which is why being Impervious to Radiation was mentioned.