Keeping Order in Rifts City States

[Alrik Vas]

So we know the CS keeps the peace by occasional racial cleansing inside it's own borders, enforced registration of psychics and a zero-tolerance rule on magic, as well as having more general laws for arbitration between mortals/normal humans. They're more or less explained in Coalition War Campaign.

Some other nations/city states have descriptions as well, like Kingsdale in the JU book, as well as Merc Town in it's own book. However, most use threat of force openly. How does a place like Lazlo differ? I admit to not knowing much about it.

All over North America there are peacekeepers, lawmen and other similar OCC's, but they all focus on combat for the most part. Peace kept at the end of a gun, spell or threat of being mind wiped isn't exactly humane and you're getting into the business of the CS at that point.

I'd like us to discuss the differences and see who really does do things the most peaceful way.

Note: I'm not expecting the CS to appear anywhere on the list of most humane...though I think most of us will be surprised at how brutal everywhere else can be.

[eliakon]

Probably the same way that you see law enforcement in shows like Appleseed, Bubblegum Crisis, or Ghost in the Shell, in real life in places like Colombia or Mexico.
The traffic police are not going to need heavy firepower, and they don't need to execute people over speeding tickets.
They will need heavy SWAT style forces to deal with demons, juicers, criminals armed with heavy weapons.
Brutality is not a needed feature for law enforcement unless your laws or your society is brutal.

[Alrik Vas]

Sound like assumptions. I'll study the books.

[eliakon]

Sound like assumptions. I'll study the books.

Anything so far is going to be an assumption since the only Police we have seen in the books are the CS, NGR and Japanese police.......I do note though that the Japanese police do seem to be a lot less brutal and violent than the CS ones.

[Bill]

I'd like us to discuss the differences and see who really does do things the most peaceful way.

Note: I'm not expecting the CS to appear anywhere on the list of most humane...though I think most of us will be surprised at how brutal everywhere else can be.

I think the CS Dog Pack is pretty humane as far as law-enforcement classes go. They're efficient hunters of the supernatural, but they're supposed to treat humans with love and respect. The class even notes that they're discouraged from biting because it might make the populace uneasy. They're probably pretty free with their neural maces when a crowd gets ugly, but inside CS cities and even the 'Burbs they're generally using non-lethal force except when the threat is supernatural in nature. Perhaps because they're only intended to follow orders, or maybe because the skill didn't exist when the class was originally written, they don't get Law as a skill.

WB33 includes the NG Police Officer O.C.C., which features a highway patrol, investigator, and undercover agent MOSs. They're armed and prepared to mete out lethal justice, but I think they're meant to protect and serve in the traditional law enforcement capacity. The crisis response officer MOS is definitely there to shoot first and ask questions of the witnesses though.

[say652]

law without violence. .........

[Bill]

Other North American Law Enforcement Classes:
ISS Peacekeepers and Inspectors from Coalition War Campaign (also used by Free Quebec)
Sheriff/Lawman from New West
Tundra Ranger from Canada

Arzno describes its law enforcement as a mix of classes from other books, including headhunters, cyborgs, psychics, etc.
The Cyberknight was originally described as a Texas Ranger-style extra-jurisdictional law enforcement character, but guided by his personal code rather than a specific law per se.
Neither Psyscape nor the Federation of Magic touch on law enforcement.

[say652]

Things with awe factor/horror factor could scare most citizens into conforming

[Q99]

A lot of places don't allow the general carrying of MDC weapons when simply walking around, for one method. Check your gun at the town gate and all that.

[Tor]

Perhaps in Lazlo they just use an 'Elements of Harmony' style mind alteration on people who do things they don't like. It worked for Zatanna on Dr. Light.

[Bill]

Long-term magical compulsion that can be applied to mortals is pretty uncommon. It might be a worthwhile area for some custom spells. Perhaps a TW domination device?

[taalismn]

The idea that if you start trouble in a public place, you're going to get zeked by every pistol-packing civilian and/or spell-throwing mage in line of sight may well do it in those communities with 'open carry' laws. Nuclear MAD applied street-level.
Yeah, it's brutal, but it's Rifts Earth.

[Alrik Vas]

Precisely, Tal. Look at Merctown. Super liberal in policy, but what it really means is, "give us your money, but your troubles, we have more guns than you."

The inner, old town is much more peaceful, like a CS city, where things like parking tickets are common. Outside, punishment is a plasma cartridge, if they determine that you deserve it.

Most all law enforcement in Rifts equates to, "don't kill anyone who can't defend themselves, and if they can, take the fight somewhere else or you'll have to fight me too."

[ShadowLogan]

All over North America there are peacekeepers, lawmen and other similar OCC's, but they all focus on combat for the most part. Peace kept at the end of a gun, spell or threat of being mind wiped isn't exactly humane and you're getting into the business of the CS at that point.

While these classes have the capacity for combat, that doesn't mean it has to be the "go-to" solution. Circumstances will determine how the "peacekeeper" will respond to a given situation. They might not have "investigative" skills by default (like the CS ISS), but that doesn't mean such can't be role-played or selected via skills/powers to aide them.

The New West Sherif/Deputy both have Law and Surveillance Systems that can help in an investigation for example. They can also select Espionage Skills to assist them. So I would not say that they are combat focused, but given the world they can't a slouch in that realm either.

[eliakon]

All over North America there are peacekeepers, lawmen and other similar OCC's, but they all focus on combat for the most part. Peace kept at the end of a gun, spell or threat of being mind wiped isn't exactly humane and you're getting into the business of the CS at that point.

While these classes have the capacity for combat, that doesn't mean it has to be the "go-to" solution. Circumstances will determine how the "peacekeeper" will respond to a given situation. They might not have "investigative" skills by default (like the CS ISS), but that doesn't mean such can't be role-played or selected via skills/powers to aide them.

The New West Sherif/Deputy both have Law and Surveillance Systems that can help in an investigation for example. They can also select Espionage Skills to assist them. So I would not say that they are combat focused, but given the world they can't a slouch in that realm either.

The other thing to remember is that there is a difference between 'focused on combat' and 'able to do combat'
I am not familiar with any statement in any book saying that they are focused on combat. It would be like saying that since vagabonds, saloon bums, barmaids and gamblers get hand to hand skills and WPs that they are combat focused......

[Alrik Vas]

I think an oath to promote order and keep the peace begets fighting. Vagabonds and saloon bums can quietly leave when the rampaging banditos come to town. The guy wearing the star in his chest has an obligation.

Regardless, I'm curious how, "leave your mountain-destroying laser rifles outside town" is enforced by towns with no lawmen. not that they can't, but in the new west the books suggest the honor system...>.>

[taalismn]

I think an oath to promote order and keep the peace begets fighting. Vagabonds and saloon bums can quietly leave when the rampaging banditos come to town. The guy wearing the star in his chest has an obligation.

Regardless, I'm curious how, "leave your mountain-destroying laser rifles outside town" is enforced by towns with no lawmen. not that they can't, but in the new west the books suggest the honor system...>.>

"Zeb, if we destroy the town, there won't be no place for us to get a hot meal we don't done prepared ourselves, no laundry we ain't done ourselves, and no place to drink hooch and swap tales with people who ain't already heard all our stories. And frankly, I LIKE eatin' the yams the grocer here gets in from somewhere. "
"Ah, good point, Mort! Guess we won't be razing this place. Besides, it's got the only place I know that makes a mean mutton stew."

[Alrik Vas]

That's one way, sure, but I have doubts. The book also states gun fights are common, almost daily occurrences.

[Jorick]

Enforcement of the law is always supported by force, at least as an ultimate recourse. But so too is there usually some measure of "social contract" or willingness of those under the law to abide by it.

Most places on Rifts Earth at least have to account for their defense with very powerful defensive systems. Stopping people at the gates and taking their guns can be seen as part of the common defense. It's not "law," it's the wall around the city, in which there is law. So you could make an argument that a city that doesn't have police, but does have a defense force, can keep guns out. But if it has a defense force, it probably has police. If it has neither then there is no way to keep guns out.

The city itself may be valuable as a neutral zone of some sort, and therefore guns don't get used much. And much like those oft mentioned megaversal powers don't all fight over Rifts Earth, and help it remain neutral to some extent, so too may the neighboring clans, or whatever, see a benefit in working together just this once to keep the town peaceful.

Citizens of the city may also be limited, like outsiders, in terms of firearms. In that case they can be seen as agreeing to the terms of living in the city, the benefits of which (e.g. no one shooting down your house at will) outweigh the inability to shoot down houses at will. This may not be seen as a fair arrangement to everyone (an overbearing police force can shoot down houses too). Luckily, there's a whole megaverse out there to explore.

In general, most townships in Rifts Earth don't seem to be egalitarian democracies, with civil liberties and stuff. Some guy collected enough power to make a town last more than a few years. Other people can live in his area, protected by him in peace, if they play by the rules. Seems fair.

Even if the citizens do not abide by all the rules, there should be little reason for the police to use lethal force if none of the citizens are capable of denting even light MDC cloth. But there does need to be some measure of the threat of force for any law to be enforceable. Anything from "we take some of your money/stuff," to "we take some of your freedom" still falls outside of "lethal force." But the ultimate answer always has to be lethal. When the cop asks to take your money you can say "no." Then the cop asks to put you in prison and you again say "no." The cop tries to make you get into the jail. You fight him off. The cop then has a choice: either not enforce the law, or hurt you until you comply and/or kick you out of the city. If you resist the hurting, then there's always good ol' death (or you win all the fights and the law revolves around you).

Finally, the nature of Rifts Earth being what it is, it's very easy for an every-day police encounter to turn into a scene out of Terminator or Predator. Your police gotta be prepared for that if the city's gonna stick around.

[taalismn]

Take a look at the Scrapyard in Battle Angel Alita for a good example(minus magic and psionics) of how law and order might work in a Rifts town...it's violent and it's hard, but the local business interests still manage to exert law and order through market pressure, licensed bountyhunters, and big ticket techno devices like the Water Wall surrounding the city, while managing to outlaw guns and similar ranged weapons inside the city. Outside the city walls, of course, it's Mad Max country.

[Killer Cyborg]

Urban Warrior EBA mentions in the description that it is "popular with adventurers and many city law enforcement officers."

[say652]

The Columbian law enforcement division is equipped just like the army, including Anti Monsters.

Imo, the reason peacekeepers need to be combat oriented is things like vampires, mages, and all sorts of crafty d-bees.

[Q99]

In Splynn, it's handled by having magic statues everywhere that watch everything, and rapid response teams of minions!

[Alrik Vas]

Okay, but let me point out that Merctown, though pretty special, is such example of how things are done. The police force is armed to the teeth even though they'll allow you to carry a sidearm. It isn't citizen enforcement, but they don't want to upset their clients, so they can carry weapons to defend themselves. Yet the cops are armed to the teeth, because they have to deal with these crazy mercs.

You have the same issues everywhere you go. The CS makes enemies, so they're constantly defending themselves from terrorism and guerrilla attacks. Though on the other hand you have Lazlo...What are the dangers in that city?

Even if we don't have the information, are there other shiney-happy places that have a highly trained and dangerously lethal police force that actually gets used?

Most order is kept by those with the most money and guns. They eliminate challenges to their power and protect their interests. That isn't anything more than natural law, though.

Only the "most civilized" areas like Japan, CS and NGR even seen to have codified laws.

[Jorick]

Okay, but let me point out that Merctown, though pretty special, is such example of how things are done. The police force is armed to the teeth even though they'll allow you to carry a sidearm. It isn't citizen enforcement, but they don't want to upset their clients, so they can carry weapons to defend themselves. Yet the cops are armed to the teeth, because they have to deal with these crazy mercs.

You have the same issues everywhere you go. The CS makes enemies, so they're constantly defending themselves from terrorism and guerrilla attacks. Though on the other hand you have Lazlo...What are the dangers in that city?

Even if we don't have the information, are there other shiney-happy places that have a highly trained and dangerously lethal police force that actually gets used?

Most order is kept by those with the most money and guns. They eliminate challenges to their power and protect their interests. That isn't anything more than natural law, though.

Only the "most civilized" areas like Japan, CS and NGR even seen to have codified laws.

Merctown has laws doesn't it? I mean, doesn't the book talk about courthouses and suing people? I can't think of another book that talks much about such things.

I think I don't really understand the question. Why would Lazlo be much different from Merctown or Northern Gun in this regard?

Why would a "shiny happy" place, that still faces threats and allows powerful beings inside, not have police armed to the teeth and ready for who knows what? As long as the police save their guns for true threats then what's not shiny and happy?

FoM describes a regulatory system in Dweomer which might help a little.

[eliakon]

Okay, but let me point out that Merctown, though pretty special, is such example of how things are done. The police force is armed to the teeth even though they'll allow you to carry a sidearm. It isn't citizen enforcement, but they don't want to upset their clients, so they can carry weapons to defend themselves. Yet the cops are armed to the teeth, because they have to deal with these crazy mercs.

You have the same issues everywhere you go. The CS makes enemies, so they're constantly defending themselves from terrorism and guerrilla attacks. Though on the other hand you have Lazlo...What are the dangers in that city?

Even if we don't have the information, are there other shiney-happy places that have a highly trained and dangerously lethal police force that actually gets used?

Most order is kept by those with the most money and guns. They eliminate challenges to their power and protect their interests. That isn't anything more than natural law, though.

Only the "most civilized" areas like Japan, CS and NGR even seen to have codified laws.

And Kingsdale (which has a courthouse), and Merctown (which has a court), and Ciudad Juraze, and Columbia and.....
Hmmm it seems that pretty much everyplace on Rifts Earth (and beyond) that has civilization beyond 'nomadic tribes' has codified laws........

[say652]

Silver republics.
Though Cordoba is basically a Creole seasoned Coalition State.

[Blue_Lion]

The larger a community the more it needs some sort of laws and order to function.

[Alrik Vas]

And Kingsdale (which has a courthouse), and Merctown (which has a court), and Ciudad Juraze, and Columbia and.....
Hmmm it seems that pretty much everyplace on Rifts Earth (and beyond) that has civilization beyond 'nomadic tribes' has codified laws........

Not doubting, but do they talk about their laws? I know juarez is pretty corrupt and most fair justice in Merctown is administered to the regular citizens. Are there any details about crime and punishment in these other places?

I mean, even today in Juarez for instance, combat in the street is a.huge problem, as well as human trafficking, drug running, and much of it in view, flouting the law. Enforcement comes as violence, not a ticket, if it comes at all.

[eliakon]

And Kingsdale (which has a courthouse), and Merctown (which has a court), and Ciudad Juraze, and Columbia and.....
Hmmm it seems that pretty much everyplace on Rifts Earth (and beyond) that has civilization beyond 'nomadic tribes' has codified laws........

Not doubting, but do they talk about their laws? I know juarez is pretty corrupt and most fair justice in Merctown is administered to the regular citizens. Are there any details about crime and punishment in these other places?

I mean, even today in Juarez for instance, combat in the street is a.huge problem, as well as human trafficking, drug running, and much of it in view, flouting the law. Enforcement comes as violence, not a ticket, if it comes at all.

No there isn't. But there isn't a huge amount on the corruption either. Just that the police (it has a regular police force, court houses and the like) is corrupt and takes bribes. There is almost nothing of laws in any of Palladiums books, unless the law might further an adventure or plot. For example we know that there is some sort of tax in the CS.....but not what it is. Do they have income taxes, Levies, Sales Taxes, Head Tax? We know that they have some sort of elections....but not for what offices, who can run, or even what the voting age is.
For the most part law systems are in the same category as 'non-adventuring gear' and ignored. While I am willing to bet that the vast majority of vehicles on Rifts Earth are not MDC combat units since those are the ones that adventurers use the most those are the most commonly stated out ones we see.

[Tor]

Long-term magical compulsion that can be applied to mortals is pretty uncommon. It might be a worthwhile area for some custom spells. Perhaps a TW domination device?

Or one of the over 2700 Diabolists in Kingsdale could make a permance ward from the bone of one of the lesser demons who can be summoned as minions (since level 1, as of RUE) by one of the over 2700 Shifters living there. Not to mention whatever portion of the over 1350 Summoners who are 2nd level or higher.

Lazlo might have fewer Diabolists/Shifters/Summoners than Kingsdale (I dunno if we ever got a breakdown for the city) but I expect there's enough that they could recruit a required pair to get the job done permanence-warding dangerous criminals to indefinitely keep their minds altered by magic.

Cordoba is basically a Creole seasoned Coalition State.

Doesn't even have Dwarven Techno-Wizards and supernatural Anti-Monster magic borgs running around, although CS seems to be as friendly with Columbia as Cordoba.

Seems to me that Columbia is nearly as bad as Santiago when it comes to D-Bee problems (tolerating them). =/

[say652]

Sovietski police.
Though even during Rifts times I dont think police policy of shoot and dont ask questions still exists. Lol

[Blastaar]

Perhaps in Lazlo they just use an 'Elements of Harmony' style mind alteration on people who do things they don't like. It worked for Zatanna on Dr. Light.

Remember what happened after that occurred though

[Alrik Vas]

So force and promise of punishment is how the law is generally conducted. Yes, many moral, perhaps even enlightened folk follow the law for just reasons...but three majority of sentient beings on Rifts earth don't fall under that category. If they did, the planet would be pretty different.

The general means tends to be, "have more money and power."

[eliakon]

So force and promise of punishment is how the law is generally conducted. Yes, many moral, perhaps even enlightened folk follow the law for just reasons...but three majority of sentient beings on Rifts earth don't fall under that category. If they did, the planet would be pretty different.

The general means tends to be, "have more money and power."

This is starting to sound like a philosophical discussion about the basis of law, what the nature of social contract is, and the moral force of governance in general......

If we presume that law is only something that can be externally applied by force then by definition it must use force. If we presume that law exists in some form as a basis of civilization then all civilizations will, again by definition, have some form of law.....
What ever presumptions we have will by their very nature provide the resultant conclusion.

[Alrik Vas]

That's mostly because they say, "place X has a courthouse" and "in city Y you can sue for damages" which suggests law and order, but the same places have wild west style gunfights.

Makes it sound...uh...not so lawful and orderly.

[Tor]

Perhaps in Lazlo they just use an 'Elements of Harmony' style mind alteration on people who do things they don't like. It worked for Zatanna on Dr. Light.

Remember what happened after that occurred though

Yep, my sarcasm was too subtle I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop when Night Mare Moon resurfaces. Nobody likes to get mind-raped.