How has the orginal setting changed in your opinion?

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:01 pm

With all the interest in retro RPGs lately I've been thinking about the early origins of Rifts. I saved my lunch money and bought Rifts when it came out in 1990. There were no other source books, the Internet was not widely available to the general public. The orginal setting, as presented in the main book was free of other creators input. A true and faithful orginal creation of that reflected Mr. Siembieda and the Palladium staff's vision for the game at the time

So how has the setting of today changed compared to the orginal Rifts Main Book? It is hard to sell sourcebooks about empty wilderness so most noticeable to me has been the addition of many new human powers in North America. Makes the setting much less post apocolyptic. I remember reading that Rifts is suppose to be the post post apocolypse, humanities climb back from oblivion but that always felt like a retcon to me when presented with the bleak empty setting of RMB. Sourcebook 1 unrevised, itself a collection of material that didn't make the RMB page count backs this up .

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:19 pm

Admittedly, civilization has seemed to make quite the comeback on rifts earth. I have to agree that change seems the largest.

I also think that, conversely, most people underestimate the amount of ignorance those in the setting would have about the rest of the continent. North America is a big place.

Though in some cases, the setting doesn't care about even that. Merctown's airline is a good example of how the post apocalypse feel has been rubbed out of the game, making rifts more merely a tech fantasy setting.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:43 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:Admittedly, civilization has seemed to make quite the comeback on rifts earth. I have to agree that change seems the largest.

I also think that, conversely, most people underestimate the amount of ignorance those in the setting would have about the rest of the continent. North America is a big place.

Though in some cases, the setting doesn't care about even that. Merctown's airline is a good example of how the post apocalypse feel has been rubbed out of the game, making rifts more merely a tech fantasy setting.

I agree with the ignorance thing.

I still think it's pretty post-apocalypsey. I think South America is the most civilizationey continent outside of Atlantis (Japan also seems pretty stable, futuristic, man vs. monster place). Maybe Central Europe, cause it wasn't hurt so bad. But everywhere else is pretty blown up, sparsely populated and emerging from the ashes in disarray and confusion.

I don't really get why people dislike the Merctown airport. Even in the first book, the CS was pretty set up, and there were other kingdoms like NG, Tolkeen and Lazlo. The CS, at the very least, could explicitly fly around in large transports. Even players could get pretty decent aircraft. Why not rent it out?

I think the books, naturally, focus on the best stuff. The players, being heroic, get the best stuff, or have some chance of access to the best things. Those things are super cool, indeed, but the population centers are super small. You're involved with a very small percentage of the geography, and outside of these very small areas, that support very few people, there's wilderness and chaos and nightmares aplenty.

I suppose I don't think it's any harder to play a simple Rifts in the wilderness game than it used to be. There's simply a lot more for your rogue scientist and his escort to see when they go in some direction. The neuron beast and witchling are still gonna present a challenge (perhaps too big of one), and there are months and months worth of miles to travel in North America alone without running into civilization more significant than a village or fade town.

Even travelling along such an important river as the Ohio, in as "populated" a land as the Federation of Magic, the one "city" on that river, Nostros, has a population of 4200. That's not even the population of a vaguely interesting college sporting event.

If the world of Mad Max qualifies as post-apocalyptic with it's large bands of marauding marauders, and Thunderdomes and whatnot, I think Rifts Earth is just fine. People (and other things) can port to different dimensions (and could as early as the first book). I don't feel that flying a few hundred miles hurts. If it makes the GM or players feel better, you can have something attack the plane and down it in the middle of who knows what.

And most of the cities one runs into are as chaotic or worse than the ones detailed in the first world book (what constitutes the 4200 of Nostros?). Merctown is pretty chill, I grant that, and one could adventure solely through Merctown, Whykin, Kingsdale, the Coalition Burbs, and Northern Gun, before hitching a portal in Lazlo to Phase World. But Merctown could also just be the jumping off point to the mad mad world around it.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:50 pm

It is all in how you play it, I'll admit. Though darker and more scary is better in my book.

Q99 · Unread post by **Q99** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:51 pm

Tech has certainly marched on. There's more of a sense of recovery, and of a sense of things changing.

The post-apoc feel has lessened a bit, but that goes with the above, as it makes sense that major powers going from their first-gen tech they've survived on forever to a new generation would involve change.

Also, there's a much greater sense that an army of demons and dyvals are invading. Threats have gotten bigger too. More wars.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:55 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:It is all in how you play it, I'll admit. Though darker and more scary is better in my book.

Totally. I think it's easy or appealing to try to use a lot of the "new" stuff, or involve it somehow. But, also, one doesn't have to ignore the "new" to play Rifts just like in the first book. If one likes it harsh and unforgiving, there's nothing saying it can't be, and there's a lot that supports that vision. Sure, the PCs might want to go to the Colorado Baronies, but they have to get there first. Shoot the plane down if they take one. Have an NPC's brains get eaten by the first shadow they encounter.

MurderCityDisciple · Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:48 pm

I always thought that humanity is in the minority in Rifts-time.

There should be whole areas of North America/Rifts Earth where there's not a human to be seen. At least that's the way I envisioned it. I gave up on Rifts some time ago. Too much bloat.

The whole mega-damage requirement drained the fun out of it for me as well. I know the whole 'you don't have to play MDC' Rifts, but c'mon. Just see how long a standard, unarmored 'dude' will last in a typical Rifts game.

Bill · Unread post by **Bill** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:23 pm

Wooly wrote:With all the interest in retro RPGs lately I've been thinking about the early origins of Rifts. I saved my lunch money and bought Rifts when it came out in 1990. There were no other source books, the Internet was not widely available to the general public. The orginal setting, as presented in the main book was free of other creators input. A true and faithful orginal creation of that reflected Mr. Siembieda and the Palladium staff's vision for the game at the time

So how has the setting of today changed compared to the orginal Rifts Main Book? It is hard to sell sourcebooks about empty wilderness so most noticeable to me has been the addition of many new human powers in North America. Makes the setting much less post apocolyptic. I remember reading that Rifts is suppose to be the post post apocolypse, humanities climb back from oblivion but that always felt like a retcon to me when presented with the bleak empty setting of RMB. Sourcebook 1 unrevised, itself a collection of material that didn't make the RMB page count backs this up .

On the one hand, the original gray paperback was definitely all about post-apocalyptic survival with the Coalition States standing out as a unique human empire. I agree that it would be hard to get that impression looking at RUE. I think at some point the game veered away from the survival themes it started with and began exploring all of the cool things that could appear in a world unbound by time and space. I'd say it started with Atlantis, but didn't really go off the rails until CJ Carella got involved. His books have some amazing content, but it's pretty far from the tone of everything before them.

On the other hand, I think the game can still be read as and still be played as a post-apocalyptic survival adventure. Even though the whole world seems populated from our top-down perspective, communication is still difficult for most of the world. It makes it very easy to run a Mad Max-style series of adventures following heroes as they pop up in radically different parts of the world that are geographically not very far apart. From a character perspective, they have the ability to reinvent themselves simply by traveling over a hill. Maybe their past will follow them, maybe it won't. It's all very old west in its character.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:45 pm

MurderCityDisciple wrote:I always thought that humanity is in the minority in Rifts-time.

There should be whole areas of North America/Rifts Earth where there's not a human to be seen. At least that's the way I envisioned it. I gave up on Rifts some time ago. Too much bloat.

The whole mega-damage requirement drained the fun out of it for me as well. I know the whole 'you don't have to play MDC' Rifts, but c'mon. Just see how long a standard, unarmored 'dude' will last in a typical Rifts game.

I find the easiest fix is a 10 SDC = 1 MDC ratio. This means conventional SDC firearms still have a use in game.

Killer Cyborg · Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:45 pm

It's gone from being a fairly gritty Post Apocalypse setting to an over-populated, cliche-filled cartoon.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:52 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:It's gone from being a fairly gritty Post Apocalypse setting to an over-populated, cliche-filled cartoon.

Well that was succinct.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:14 pm

Wooly wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's gone from being a fairly gritty Post Apocalypse setting to an over-populated, cliche-filled cartoon.

Well that was succinct.

I love the "cliche cartoon." I'm an 80s kid and Rifts has always been the ultimate 80's sci-fi/fantasy B-movie/comic book adventure world. I love the premise behind the world, and how it elegantly, in my opinion, allows for the ancient myths and the modern (70's/80's/90's) aesthetics to be reborn and "real."

The myths come back to where they once belonged (because the Rifts there tend to spit those worlds out). Camelot, I'll admit, is a bit more of a stretch (as it's an alien intelligence choosing to mimic an old legend, as opposed to the old legend returning), but even that hokeyness is part of that high-fantasy style/amalgam of ideas common in my favorite era of sci-fi/fantasy.

The premise, at the very least, is not cliche. It's brilliant.

Slight tangent:

I posted this in the Rifts Movie forum. I hope it's ok to repost here. It's a super tongue in cheek parody of the genre, done perfectly (I use the term "parody" lightly, 'cause the genre is often pretty tongue in cheek). The collection of comrades at the end could be straight out of Rifts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:21 pm

Rifts, in many ways, is not post-apocalyptic. It's post-post-apocalyptic... the point where people are no longer reacting to the apocalypse, but instead building lasting institutions that happen to be surrounded by destruction.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:29 pm

Jorick wrote:
Wooly wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's gone from being a fairly gritty Post Apocalypse setting to an over-populated, cliche-filled cartoon.

Well that was succinct.

I love the "cliche cartoon." I'm an 80s kid and Rifts has always been the ultimate 80's sci-fi/fantasy B-movie/comic book adventure world. I love the premise behind the world, and how it elegantly, in my opinion, allows for the ancient myths and the modern (70's/80's/90's) aesthetics to be reborn and "real."

The myths come back to where they once belonged (because the Rifts there tend to spit those worlds out). Camelot, I'll admit, is a bit more of a stretch (as it's an alien intelligence choosing to mimic an old legend, as opposed to the old legend returning), but even that hokeyness is part of that high-fantasy style/amalgam of ideas common in my favorite era of sci-fi/fantasy.

The premise, at the very least, is not cliche. It's brilliant.

Slight tangent:

I posted this in the Rifts Movie forum. I hope it's ok to repost here. It's a super tongue in cheek parody of the genre, done perfectly (I use the term "parody" lightly, 'cause the genre is often pretty tongue in cheek). The collection of comrades at the end could be straight out of Rifts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

While I enjoyed the movie and grew up in the 1980s I have never run Rifts that way, that is just too gonzo or silly.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:32 pm

Wooly wrote:
While I enjoyed the movie and grew up in the 1980s I have never run Rifts that way, that is just too gonzo or silly.

I also prefer "gritty" over "silly," but there's a fine line between the two in the genre, and it's not hard to make one the other.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:59 pm

I disagree, grit and ridiculous are usually pretty far apart unless a point is being made. Then it's satire.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:19 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:I disagree, grit and ridiculous are usually pretty far apart unless a point is being made. Then it's satire.

Total Recall?

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:04 am

Total recall the novel or movie? And which movie?

I don't think any of those three qualify as gritty.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:05 am

I don't think it's changed too terribly much.

Most of the world had a kernel of truth to old lady tarn's stories. I guess Japan was a lie, South America was more than Argentina. Europe is pretty much as RMB said, so is Africa. It was silent on Russia and Australia. Both RMB and RUE are silent on Middle East through South East Asia.

But I'm certain most of us are talking about North America. The West Coast is still as non-existent as RMB says. Dinosaur Swamp isn't an over populated cheery place. The East Coast is FUBAR, Madhaven is certainly post apoc. Colilition, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Northern Gun, Federation of Magic, Kingsdale, Tolkeen ... all those places have always existed, and were always a solid civilization of one form or another. Northern Gun, Wilkes, Titan Robotics, the idea of market places for million dollar war machines always existed.

I guess finding out Psyscape existed might have been the first added location. Then finding out the New West as described in the RMB was a lie, might have hurt some feelings. Also I think there is the problem that writers have no sense of scale "Can travel a 1000 miles", sometimes they underestimate how far 1000 miles is. Because that was explicitly untrue even RUE. Even now with the exception of some of the more densly populated states, you still have 1 or 2 population centers in a state.

As for the MD thing. Again, there has always been a market place of MD weapons/equipment.
"Bobby hunts rabbit with his M-14 carbine as often as he hunts with his bow and arrows, and Kenny
gunned down some D-Bee bear-monster with his ion blaster". City Rats, Cyberdocs, Rogue Scholars & Scientists, they start with MD armor and MD energy weapons.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:05 am

I don't think it's changed too terribly much.

Most of the world had a kernel of truth to old lady tarn's stories. I guess Japan was a lie, South America was more than Argentina. Europe is pretty much as RMB said, so is Africa. It was silent on Russia and Australia. Both RMB and RUE are silent on Middle East through South East Asia.

But I'm certain most of us are talking about North America. The West Coast is still as non-existent as RMB says. Dinosaur Swamp isn't an over populated cheery place. The East Coast is FUBAR, Madhaven is certainly post apoc. Colilition, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Northern Gun, Federation of Magic, Kingsdale, Tolkeen ... all those places have always existed, and were always a solid civilization of one form or another. Northern Gun, Wilkes, Titan Robotics, the idea of market places for million dollar war machines always existed.

I guess finding out Psyscape existed might have been the first added location. Then finding out the New West as described in the RMB was a lie, might have hurt some feelings. Also I think there is the problem that writers have no sense of scale "Can travel a 1000 miles", sometimes they underestimate how far 1000 miles is. Because that was explicitly untrue even RUE. Even now with the exception of some of the more densly populated states, you still have 1 or 2 population centers in a state.

As for the MD thing. Again, there has always been a market place of MD weapons/equipment.
"Bobby hunts rabbit with his M-14 carbine as often as he hunts with his bow and arrows, and Kenny
gunned down some D-Bee bear-monster with his ion blaster". City Rats, Cyberdocs, Rogue Scholars & Scientists, they start with MD armor and MD energy weapons.

SpiritInterface · Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:37 am

Alrik Vas wrote:Total recall the novel or movie? And which movie?

I don't think any of those three qualify as gritty.

Rifts has gone from the Mad Max Road Warrior post apocalypse setting to a Bladerunner techno decay setting.

Q99 · Unread post by **Q99** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:24 am

I'll also note it's not just gone one way- Australia is a bit lower-tech and more post-apoc than the main book stuff, for example. Russia certainly isn't more civilized or closer to coming back together either.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:55 am

Zero Change.
Rifts, other than being a grwat place for Deathmatch type battles is politically Stagnant.
Same kingdoms, same people doing the same thibg. Repetitive and Repetitive.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:00 pm

say652 wrote:Zero Change.
Rifts, other than being a grwat place for Deathmatch type battles is politically Stagnant.
Same kingdoms, same people doing the same thibg. Repetitive and Repetitive.

Zero change? Numerous factions unmentioned in the RMB (not RUE) have been added since the game was first released. Existing ones have been beefed up or changed.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:55 pm

Cs will kill you. Atlantis will slave you. Tolkien is gone.

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:06 pm

And Tolkien being gone is, itself, a change.

Wooly · Unread post by **Wooly** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:49 pm

say652 wrote:Cs will kill you. Atlantis will slave you. Tolkien is gone.

ZERO CHANGES!

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:02 pm

Everything is getting stronger.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:01 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:Total recall the novel or movie? And which movie?

I don't think any of those three qualify as gritty.

I guess I think the first movie does. Haven't seen the second. Don't know about the book.

At the very least, it was a screenplay written by the dudes who wrote Alien (that has to be considered gritty, right?), based on a Phillip K. Dick short story (whose short stories have been responsible for Blade Runner, Screamers, Minority Report, A Scanner Darkly, etc.--mileage may vary as to how "gritty" one thinks these are), and was directed by the guy that did Robocop (and Starship Troopers--also, mileage may vary).

Point being: many of the same creative juices go into the "gritty" and the "silly" sci-fi. It doesn't take much, I don't think, to turn one into the other. Especially in the 80's (or 70's-90's) the line was very easy to blur. As far as film goes, I think it's really hard to tell the difference between silly and gritty before the 70s, and all that cheese was a primary influence on even the grittiest of sci-fi and fantasy afterwards.

Rifts, the way I see it, has always comfortably straddled that line. Dogboys are pretty cheesy. Coalition armor is inherently cheesy. A Thornhead Demon can be both depending on who's looking at it. Tolkeen is called Tolkeen. Chi-town is called Chi-town. Gotham City and Metropolis are called Gotham City and Metropolis in every Superman and Batman incarnation. Some of them are cheese, some aren't at all. The "Caped Crusader" is also the "Dark Knight." It's all in the spin.

My point there is simply that I don't think Rifts ever lost or gained anything in that regard.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:21 pm

True, as I said earlier the setting is what a group makes of it. You might have super friends with teleportation and overly buff combat abilities dealing with high powered enemies like the splugorth in an epic battle of good vs evil. That can get cheesy real fast, especially when there's too much focus on relationships.

Or you can have a small group of adventures who are slag without their meager armor, being chased by uncle Skullhead as they try to answer deep questions about earth's past and desriny.

Or you can be relatively normal folks trapped in a demon infested forest, making any and all sacrifices just to survive the horror.

But you can make each of those gritty, each of those silly. However, I think Total Recall fits nicely into silly. Johnny Cab, three breasted women and cheesy one liners keep it well into the realm of cheesy 80's action.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:23 am

Wooly wrote:With all the interest in retro RPGs lately I've been thinking about the early origins of Rifts. I saved my lunch money and bought Rifts when it came out in 1990. There were no other source books, the Internet was not widely available to the general public. The orginal setting, as presented in the main book was free of other creators input. A true and faithful orginal creation of that reflected Mr. Siembieda and the Palladium staff's vision for the game at the time

So how has the setting of today changed compared to the orginal Rifts Main Book? It is hard to sell sourcebooks about empty wilderness so most noticeable to me has been the addition of many new human powers in North America. Makes the setting much less post apocolyptic. I remember reading that Rifts is suppose to be the post post apocolypse, humanities climb back from oblivion but that always felt like a retcon to me when presented with the bleak empty setting of RMB. Sourcebook 1 unrevised, itself a collection of material that didn't make the RMB page count backs this up .

One thing to note though is even with what appears to be an upsurge in civilization with the source books over time most of these places still wind up being pretty tiny oasis in a whole lot of empty hostile land. It always helps to look at what the various powers actually control over what they state they control in most cases even the biggest powers only fully control the areas in and directly around their cities and the farther you get from a city it turns into wilderness pretty fast.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:26 am

Trying to put together a Columbian Justico Legion. South America is one of my favorite settings.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:20 pm

Bill wrote:the original gray paperback was definitely all about post-apocalyptic survival with the Coalition States standing out as a unique human empire.

In a way all the empires are unique... but if by that you mean the only human-supremist nation, Erin Tarn had written (entry 41 "The rest of Europe") about the "New Republic" being the German eqiuvalent of Chi-Town (5 million humans). The uniqueness of the CS was moreso that it got the focus (the OCCs, the pretty pics) while the vaguely described other human nations just didn't get fleshed out.

Norway/Sweden are mysteriously supposed to be about equal to the New (German) Republic, future world books? Amsterdam also had 3 million people (mostly humans) and France had 4 million humans (according to Tarn) 10x as many as Tarn estimated were in England.

Incriptus wrote:I guess Japan was a lie, South America was more than Argentina.

Could just put it down to ignorance, Tarn not knowing everything. Although we should never drop the possibility that she is lying to misinform people.

Incriptus wrote:Europe is pretty much as RMB said, so is Africa.

Has anything contradicetd Denmark/Norway/Sweden empires yet? Guess that's still possibility..

Incriptus wrote:Both RMB and RUE are silent on Middle East through South East Asia.

I guess some of what I would consider the middle east (Egypt?) would fall under Africa but yeah, all she covered of Asia/Indonesia was India/China/Japan, guess everything else like Russia falls under 'the rest of the world' which like Australia she didn't know about.

Incriptus wrote:Colilition, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Northern Gun, Federation of Magic, Kingsdale, Tolkeen ... all those places have always existed, and were always a solid civilization of one form or another.

"Always" as in "since RMB" ? I figured New Lazlo was pretty recent, like to Lazlo what Magestar is to Dweomer. Coalition was either founded 1 PA or 33 PA depending on whether you go by CWC/FoM or Sedition =/

Incriptus wrote:"Bobby hunts rabbit with his M-14 carbine as often as he hunts with his bow and arrows, and Kenny
gunned down some D-Bee bear-monster with his ion blaster".

It is criminal that KS has not made Zeke/travelling Operator/Mr. Kramer/Bobby/Kenny (RMBp2015 "The Black Market - Levels of Technology") into NPCs yet

This town should be fleshed out as RMB tribute. Same with the dueling Cyber-Knight/Grunt in CB and anyone named in combat examples.

boxee · Unread post by **boxee** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:04 am

Jorick wrote:
Wooly wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's gone from being a fairly gritty Post Apocalypse setting to an over-populated, cliche-filled cartoon.

Well that was succinct.

I love the "cliche cartoon." I'm an 80s kid and Rifts has always been the ultimate 80's sci-fi/fantasy B-movie/comic book adventure world. I love the premise behind the world, and how it elegantly, in my opinion, allows for the ancient myths and the modern (70's/80's/90's) aesthetics to be reborn and "real."

The myths come back to where they once belonged (because the Rifts there tend to spit those worlds out). Camelot, I'll admit, is a bit more of a stretch (as it's an alien intelligence choosing to mimic an old legend, as opposed to the old legend returning), but even that hokeyness is part of that high-fantasy style/amalgam of ideas common in my favorite era of sci-fi/fantasy.

The premise, at the very least, is not cliche. It's brilliant.

Slight tangent:

I posted this in the Rifts Movie forum. I hope it's ok to repost here. It's a super tongue in cheek parody of the genre, done perfectly (I use the term "parody" lightly, 'cause the genre is often pretty tongue in cheek). The collection of comrades at the end could be straight out of Rifts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

Wow cool little movie loved the cheese thanks for pointing it out!

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:46 pm

Rifts is no longer what it used to be. Thats why Chaos Earth came out.

glitterboy2098 · Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:36 pm

Tor wrote:Norway/Sweden are mysteriously supposed to be about equal to the New (German) Republic, future world books?

*whistles nonchalantly*

Incriptus wrote:Europe is pretty much as RMB said, so is Africa.
Has anything contradicetd Denmark/Norway/Sweden empires yet? Guess that's still possibility..

ROFL...

prior to Triax2 all we had to go on was a line fro mth main book about how it is "as advanced as triax", and a bit about how it is the only group still trying to reach space.

Triax2 gave us a name (the Scandianvian Alliance) and established they're wiz's at naval design, and that they've mostly been unable to help out the NGR due to their own issues.

Triax2 is not a contradiction, i was the one to advise it's writers about what would be best to put.

andi've tried very hard to ensure the main book reference is kept to.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:14 pm

I guess "about equal to the New Republic" might have been referring to the summed power of Norway and Sweden, rather than each individually being the match for NGR. Could be taken either way.

If Tarn was right when she wrote her book though, wouldn't that mean that Norway+Sweden should be stronger since they don't deal with Gargs all the time?

glitterboy2098 · Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:38 pm

first, just because they don't fight the gargoyle Empire and Brodkil kingdoms does not mean they don't have their own problems they are facing that take up most of their time. (this is actually pointed out in Triax2 btw.. the Alliance has it's own wars to fight, which keep them from being able to send much to help the NGR out.)

second, the quote is:
"Norway and Sweden are also, comparatively, densely populated and
technologically advanced. About equal to the New Republic."

given the phrasing, the "about equal to the new republic" could also apply to their technology instead of their population. which given that scandinavia has always been less populous than the rest of europe would actually make rather more sense.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:04 am

No knowing how that might change in the Golden Age. While coldness might lead to a lack of people moving in, that could change with global warming.

Technological advancement and population density are gonna be strongly linked. Tech helps them survive so people will flock there, and the need to repopulate in an apocalypse makes people flock like rabbits.

glitterboy2098 · Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:11 am

ok, first, since your talking to the guy who's doing the writing for this? probably not a good idea to lecture him on the details of the book.

second, i've been studying history and sociology as a profession, and futurism as a hobby, for the better part of 15 years. you don't need to lecture me on the dynamics of population growth vis-a-vis technological advancement.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:16 am

Ummm even if they are 'comparatively densely populated'....what is the population density of the NGR vis-à-vis the density of non republican areas? If they have some small cities and the rest of Europe is empty wilderness that is still dense.....

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:37 am

GB2098 if you introduce a Lecturer OCC in Rifts Scandinavia you will be super-awesome. Please include a MA penalty, OCCs mostly seem to have bonuses but I like attribute penalties like how the Ecto-Hunter gets a chance of as he gains levels in Warlords.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:36 am

Children! Don't make me turn this thread around. Discuss the topic, not each other.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:10 am

If there's going to be NGR-level tech, and I recall World Book 5 having cool aircrafts, rules on speed slowdowns while turning around aircraft (going on strafing runs and stuff) would be pretty cool.

That's one aspect I couldn't totally wrap myself around. Like with a SAMAS, they fly in a weird upright position, looks like they couldn't aim behind them but if they turned around, their main thrusters in the back would be facing the opposite direction. So they could fly full speed toward whatever they're aiming at, but it seems like it leads to a dog fighting kinda situation. You can't run away from someone without facing away and being unable to shoot at them, no butt-guns

H.P. Hovercraft · Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:42 pm

say652 wrote:Zero Change.
Rifts, other than being a grwat place for Deathmatch type battles is politically Stagnant.
Same kingdoms, same people doing the same thibg. Repetitive and Repetitive.

Politically Stagnant?

I'm not a huge fan of meta-plot in games, but Rifts has not been stagnant.

Tolkeen is no more (I think there was a book about that.......not sure).

The Coalition State of Free Quebec has seceded from the CS (gee, no one saw that coming).

Iron Heart has annexed New Kenora (and an arms manufacturer; Wellington Industries).

The Shemarrian Nation has declared their sovereignty (not that anyone west of the Appalachians cares).

Not to mention the introduction of new political powers into the mix (Merc Town, Native Preserves, etc).

I personally prefer changes to the game universe to evolve from in-game circumstances, but Rifts has not been politically stagnant.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:23 pm

It got too crowded and long distance travel (more than 100 miles) got too easy.

That's the number one reason I made most of my setting changes. Now if you go too far from your fortress city, it gets risky pretty quick.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:15 am

H.P. Hovercraft wrote:
say652 wrote:Zero Change.
Rifts, other than being a grwat place for Deathmatch type battles is politically Stagnant.
Same kingdoms, same people doing the same thibg. Repetitive and Repetitive.

Politically Stagnant?

I'm not a huge fan of meta-plot in games, but Rifts has not been stagnant.

Tolkeen is no more (I think there was a book about that.......not sure).

The Coalition State of Free Quebec has seceded from the CS (gee, no one saw that coming).

Iron Heart has annexed New Kenora (and an arms manufacturer; Wellington Industries).

The Shemarrian Nation has declared their sovereignty (not that anyone west of the Appalachians cares).

Not to mention the introduction of new political powers into the mix (Merc Town, Native Preserves, etc).

I personally prefer changes to the game universe to evolve from in-game circumstances, but Rifts has not been politically stagnant.

Agreed, Rifts is anything but politically stagnant. Its like a game of Axis and Allies. This is one reason why I like the setting of Rifts, depending on the year you are playing in, the entire setting can be different.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:58 pm

Wooly wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's gone from being a fairly gritty Post Apocalypse setting to an over-populated, cliche-filled cartoon.

Well that was succinct.

It is that sledge hammer thing...

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:03 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:It's gone from being a fairly gritty Post Apocalypse setting to an over-populated, cliche-filled cartoon.

But it was cartooney and clichéd the moment they brought in Atlantis and Splugorth slaver that should be in a hentai with their four scantilly clad gaurdians more so when the brought in England and it continued from there. I've always liked the cheesyness but no matter what it still isn't as cheesy as Macho Women With Guns the RPG.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:06 pm

Jorick wrote:
Wooly wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's gone from being a fairly gritty Post Apocalypse setting to an over-populated, cliche-filled cartoon.

Well that was succinct.

I love the "cliche cartoon." I'm an 80s kid and Rifts has always been the ultimate 80's sci-fi/fantasy B-movie/comic book adventure world. I love the premise behind the world, and how it elegantly, in my opinion, allows for the ancient myths and the modern (70's/80's/90's) aesthetics to be reborn and "real."

The myths come back to where they once belonged (because the Rifts there tend to spit those worlds out). Camelot, I'll admit, is a bit more of a stretch (as it's an alien intelligence choosing to mimic an old legend, as opposed to the old legend returning), but even that hokeyness is part of that high-fantasy style/amalgam of ideas common in my favorite era of sci-fi/fantasy.

The premise, at the very least, is not cliche. It's brilliant.

Slight tangent:

I posted this in the Rifts Movie forum. I hope it's ok to repost here. It's a super tongue in cheek parody of the genre, done perfectly (I use the term "parody" lightly, 'cause the genre is often pretty tongue in cheek). The collection of comrades at the end could be straight out of Rifts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

LOL You... You I like. Kill him last.