Which dragon hatchie should I play?

Shadowdragon7 · Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:08 pm

What dragons are really fun to play? I have rifts ultimate rulebook, Japan book, Psi scape, the rifts England book. those books I know have dragons in them.
And I can take a class at level 3. I also like super psionic's and magic.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:59 am

I enjoyed playing a Forest Runner hatchling not too long ago, they're kind of the underdog of the dragon hatchlings. I've heard a lot of people enjoy playing the Chiang-Ku hatchling, too. Never played one myself though.

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:52 am

if you like super psionics and magic (as in, together), there's really only one choice that i'm aware of; the royal frilled dragon (if you had RMB, you'd have a bit more to choose from). i don't think any other dragon in RUE actually gets particularly noteworthy psionic abilities at all.

that said, i don't anticipate there being a huge difference in "fun-ness" between all the dragons.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:01 am

With so few ways to deal megadamage ice damage, I am partial to the Ice Dragon Hatchling.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:36 pm

I'm partial for the Chiang-Ku myself. Unlimited metamorphosis, magic tattoos, and can choose a magic casting class. There's a lot of good role-playing material there.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:48 pm

Mack wrote:I'm partial for the Chiang-Ku myself. Unlimited metamorphosis, magic tattoos, and can choose a magic casting class. There's a lot of good role-playing material there.

I second Chiang-Ku.

One of the worst aspects (purely from a mechanics perspective) is the lack of skills. The "power" of the hatchling can be significant, but you're probably playing something akin to an imbecile trying to figure those powers out. It's fun (and funny), but you're not a skilled powerhouse. You're a very unskilled powerhouse always about to get your party into trouble through ignorance and accident.

The Chiang-Ku, depending on your GM, could give a very different playstyle. Still ignorant and learning, but perhaps actually already taught a thing or two by elder Chiang-Ku or Atlanteans. It's never explicitly stated, but it's clear from other fluff that Chiang-Ku, unlike other dragons, are very social, with each other or with Atlanteans, and, especially on Rifts Earth, you're likely to find adult Chiang-Ku either with other Chiang-Ku (Nog Henge) or with Atlanteans (Manoa). You're still low on skills, but you have perhaps a better grasp over your lot in life to start.

Regardless of how your GM looks at the above, the unlimited metamorphoses of the Chiang-ku gives you a lot of utility. You don't have the breath weapon or teleport, which are obviously losses in power, but, assuming you're with a group going in and out of civilized areas, there is nothing like a Chiang-Ku's metamorphoses.

For example, in one of the Burbs books, there's criminal of some sort (I don't recall exactly what he is--I can look it up later and update--EDIT: Tom Mitzer is a vampire detailed in Chi-Town Burbs 2: Firetown & The Tolkeen Crisis, starting on pg. 40. The "adventure hook" detailing his ability to get into Chi-Town is on pg. 44) who is one of the few non-human beings who can go in and out of Chi-Town with ease, whenever he wants, because he can turn to mist. A Chiang-Ku can too. Psi-Stalkers at the gates of a town not letting dragons in? No problem. Mist over the walls, turn into a raven (or something) and stay perched on your buddy's shoulder like a pet. For as long as you feel like it. Your shape-changing is so good you can mimic the appearance of particular people.

This along with the ability to GIVE YOURSELF TATTOOS more than makes up for the lack of a breath weapon. Again, depending on your GM, you could spend all day scribbling on yourself. The book does limit the amount of tattoos you should be able to give yourself (for balance issues?), but even with that limitation, you've got some beastly abilities at your disposal...as a raven hanging out on someone's shoulder, or as the spitting image of your target's favorite girl at the local brothel. Even a hatchling Chiang-Ku is about the best spy/master assassin/intelligence operative in the game, based on inherent ability alone.

You'll still have to work for those skills though.

Shadowdragon7 · Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:15 pm

Or you can turn into a chawawa, can't spell it just think of the Taco Bell dog, and ride into chi town in someone's purse. Or give your fiend a falconer's gloves, then turn into a falcon and drop small dogs on cs grunts from 1,000 feet!

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:59 pm

say652 wrote:With so few ways to deal megadamage ice damage, I am partial to the Ice Dragon Hatchling.

Yes ice dragons or the RUE variant I forget the name of their ice dragon are really nice. Given how rare ice/cold damage is nice to have somebody in the group who can do it. If you want something with strong psi and magic right from the start the great horned dragons or their RUE cousins are sort of the go to top dogs typically. They are all pretty fun though pick whichever one calls to you even the "worst" dragon is still a freaking dragon its like bad pizza. Even bad pizza is still pretty damn good.

Bill · Unread post by **Bill** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:15 pm

Whip-Tailed hatchlings grow back lost limbs. There are a couple reasons why that is particularly useful.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:15 pm

although I was always kinda curious given their metamorphasis capabilities if they lost a limb that would not grow back on its own for some reason most I would think could just use their metamorphasis abilities to give them a limb back.

Bill · Unread post by **Bill** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:33 pm

kaid wrote:although I was always kinda curious given their metamorphasis capabilities if they lost a limb that would not grow back on its own for some reason most I would think could just use their metamorphasis abilities to give them a limb back.

For one to four hours at a time, triple on a ley line.

Your beautiful dragon companion shimmers and twists, his limbs withering away to scarred lumps of ruined flesh.

"Don't look at me!" it roars in rage and shame.

No wonder they go nuts. :wink:

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:50 pm

Zaayr Crystal Dragon, cut off your scales and sell them to TWs. Amass enough power that Atlantis doesn't try to enslave you.

Bill wrote:Whip-Tailed hatchlings grow back lost limbs. There are a couple reasons why that is particularly useful.

Selling to Diabolists or Necromancers, surprised demons/de(e)vils with limb regn don't make mad cash doing this.

Q99 · Unread post by **Q99** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:59 pm

Tor wrote:Zaayr Crystal Dragon, cut off your scales and sell them to TWs. Amass enough power that Atlantis doesn't try to enslave you.

Bill wrote:Whip-Tailed hatchlings grow back lost limbs. There are a couple reasons why that is particularly useful.

Selling to Diabolists or Necromancers, surprised demons/de(e)vils with limb regn don't make mad cash doing this.

It still *hurts* you know!

Bill · Unread post by **Bill** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:26 pm

Tor wrote:Selling to Diabolists or Necromancers, surprised demons/de(e)vils with limb regn don't make mad cash doing this.

It's a short list of demons/devils/deevils that can do it and most of them are not interested in money. Mayhem and destruction, absolutely; but not money. Besides, how do you think necromancers get demonic parts? Very few of them are tough enough to take them. Trade on the other hand...

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:05 am

Q99 wrote:It still *hurts* you know!

Yeah I know... but the healer psionic of Deaden Pain could deal with that issue. Sadly not an option for Whip-Tails to start with... shouldn't be that hard to find a minor/major with the ability to help you out though.

Bill wrote:It's a short list of demons/devils/deevils that can do it

True, though 9 compared to 2 previously.
Devils: Dire Harpies, Gorgons, Imps, Beasts, Horrors, Serpents (all per DB11, PF2 only Gorgons had it)
Demons: Taursis (9.75% of), Aquatics, (Su/In)cubi, Brek-Shall (all per DB10, PF2 only Aquatics had it)

Bill wrote:most of them are not interested in money

Could be traded for other gear they might want, or human body parts, blood sacrifices, etc. If they don't want money, use the money to buy mayhem and destruction for them.

Bill wrote:how do you think necromancers get demonic parts?

I always figured by severing the limbs of summoned Magots. Also wondering if there were a way to prevent a severed vampire limb from turning to mist, they used to be classified as demons, maybe if you summoned a PRPG-style 'greater demon' vampire who didn't mist when you cut them up.

Reading 1st edition, now realizing that Alu and Aquatics were the only lesser with bio-regen as natural ability (Labassu and Mares could use their psionics to bio-regen though) while all the Devils except Fiends and Wraiths had bio-regen as natural ability (the latter able to use psionics as stand-in like Labassu/Mares).

Banshees/Couril/Ghouls/Lasae/Succubi were pretty big combat liabilities, I think they could only heal at standard mortal rates. Even some greater demons (Gallu, Night Owls and Raksasha) lacked bio-regen natural abilities (the latter 2 could use psionics as a stand-in).

Also I think only Aquatics/Vampires could regenerate limbs.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:36 am

The Chiang-Ku's unlimited metamorphosis is really necessary if you want to do things that people take for granted like "I walk into the building and take a seat". Not to mention the other advantages of alternate forms. Also they tend to be great magicians because they can simply choose another magic class spell abilities, if you don't want to be the tattoo master (and those magicians still get extra tattoos). So if I were forced at gun point to play a dragon in a "Humanoid Centric" game it would be a Chiang-Ku.

A Royal Frilled at level 3 can be in a human-oid form for 12 hours a day, which may be acceptable, and sport Master Psionics (14 minor, 2 super) and 10-16 spells (levels 1-3) and are supposed to like people, so that could work out on the streets

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:06 am

Even the 1 hour / level the worst-metamorphing dragon in RUE has is still adequate to walk into buildings and sit down. Just don't take too long to eat your meal.

Also what's this 'per day' stuff about? I thought that once the duration expired, you just reverted back to your true form briefly but then could change back and start a new metamorphosis duration. Not sure how long that would take, has the time it takes to shift form ever been detailed?

Maybe we could use Nightbane as a guideline, default to 1 melee round with an option to speed it up by making a ME save? I'd say that it should take a minimum of 1 or 2 melee actions rather than 'less than 1' though. Less than 1 should only be possible if they're reverting to their true dragon form, I think it should be slower if they are adopting a non-natural form.

As a house rule (unless this was detailed somewhere) how about 1 melee to revert to true form, 1 attack if make ME save, double both if changing from to an un-true form.

Also: not sure if dragons need to adopt their true form in between 2 different fake forms. Like can they go wolfen>elf or do they have to go wolfen>dragon>elf? I think maybe there should be some speed advantage if they are starting from their natural form... so maybe double the time again (1 minute, or 4 attacks if ME save) if they are going from fake>fake would be fair.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:30 am

Tor wrote:Also what's this 'per day' stuff about? I thought that once the duration expired, you just reverted back to your true form briefly but then could change back and start a new metamorphosis duration. Not sure how long that would take, has the time it takes to shift form ever been detailed?

You know you're absolutely right, I guess my brain auto-translated it. Perhaps I've been playing too many games with a "per day" limitation in the background of my mind. A debate for another time and another place "what's the point of having a duration on an ability that can be reset at will" ... certainly there are some legit reasons, usually things with shorter durations ... going off topic

Bill · Unread post by **Bill** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:35 am

I prefer to play it as a set duration that the dragon may change shape at-will during. They must return to their natural form to reset the timer though. It adds a little tension and requires a bit more planning than resetting the timer with every shape-change.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:04 pm

That was always how I ran it they can do it as much per day as they want but they have to go back to normal dragon form to reset the clock otherwise there is no point to any of the stated duration limitations.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:19 pm

Chiang ku have lousy attributes.

Ice Dragon Hatchling Good attributes Breath Weapon better damage hand to hand.

Stay voting Ice Dragon Hatchling.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:15 pm

Still voting Forest Runner.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:54 pm

Incriptus wrote:
Tor wrote:Also what's this 'per day' stuff about? I thought that once the duration expired, you just reverted back to your true form briefly but then could change back and start a new metamorphosis duration. Not sure how long that would take, has the time it takes to shift form ever been detailed?

You know you're absolutely right, I guess my brain auto-translated it. Perhaps I've been playing too many games with a "per day" limitation in the background of my mind. A debate for another time and another place "what's the point of having a duration on an ability that can be reset at will" ... certainly there are some legit reasons, usually things with shorter durations ... going off topic

There is a rule somewhere in some book that discusses dragons (so, like, either RMB, RUE or D+G) about a duration after metamorphoses when the hatchling cannot change into something else. My guess is it's RMB, because the Chiang-Ku is balanced around old rules, and is pretty much only cut and paste in D+G (where Great Horned metamorphoses gets buffed), and the RUE dragons all gain PPE per level, which the Chiang-Ku clearly don't (see hatchling NPCs in Africa). I believe the limited PPE is to limit use of tattoos, because one of the best shapeshifters (thus able to wear whatever armor and use whatever equipment indefinitely) in the game with a dragon's MDC as a player character is kinda ridic in early Rifts.

Not so much anymore. I'd probably give them 3d6 PPE per level if I were GM, considering they're supposed to be great magicians.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:26 am

Tor wrote:Also what's this 'per day' stuff about? I thought that once the duration expired, you just reverted back to your true form briefly but then could change back and start a new metamorphosis duration. Not sure how long that would take, has the time it takes to shift form ever been detailed?

Not according to the FAQ section in SB1 original (pg10). They establish that dragon metamorphosis ability can only be done for the given time per 48hr period and must wait 24hrs between expired metamorphosis time and starting a new.

"Once the dragon has used up all its metamorphosis time, it can not perform another metamorphosis for 24 hours." -pg10 (there is a bit more before and after this w/re to examples mostly).

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:17 am

Does SB1 revised reprint or update that text?

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:15 am

D+G pg. 15 "Time limit: Although some adult dragons like the Chiang-ku and Great Horned can maintain the metamorphosis indefinitely, most adults are limited to 4-6 hours per level of experience, while hatchlings are limited to two hours per level of experience; in both cases, triple the duration if the dragon is on or near a ley line or nexus point (within two miles). When this time elapses, the dragon will assume its natural shape and size whether it wants to or not, and metamorphosis cannot be performed again for at least five hours for adults and 12 hours for hatchlings."

SB1 pg. 10: "The maximum duration a dragon can maintain a metamorphosis is two hours per each level of experience, within a 48 hour period. Thus a first level dragon can shape change for a total of two hours, at second level four hours, third level six hours, Fourth level eight hours and so on. At the end of this period, the dragon will revert to its natural dragon shape whether it wants to or not. Once the dragon has used up all its metamorphosis time, it can not perform another metamorphosis for 24 hours. This means that a second level dragon can perform and/or maintain metamorphosis for a total of four hours within a 48 hour period. Within that four hour period the creature could alter its shape 20 or more times, but once it has used up the four hours, it can not shape change again until 24 hours has passed."

Also

"The dragon can change its form as often as desired with some limitations. First, the actual physical change takes about 10 seconds. Second, the dragon can NOT alter its form into a different unnatural shape for 1D4 minutes because it's body needs time to adjust. However, the dragon can instantly resume its natural dragon form at will."

RUE descriptions seems cut and paste from RMB, with no discussion of what happens when time expires. I don't think there's anything in the revised SB since there's no similar FAQ.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:21 am

The revised conversion book supercedes the original. If they did not reprint or revise that text then I personally wouldn't hold anyone to it, especially in a game using the Rifts: Ultimate Edition.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:27 am

Glistam wrote:The revised conversion book supercedes the original. If they did not reprint or revise that text then I personally wouldn't hold anyone to it, especially in a game using the Rifts: Ultimate Edition.

Is there something in the revised conversion book on hatchling metamorphoses?

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:52 am

Jorick wrote:
Glistam wrote:The revised conversion book supercedes the original. If they did not reprint or revise that text then I personally wouldn't hold anyone to it, especially in a game using the Rifts: Ultimate Edition.

Is there something in the revised conversion book on hatchling metamorphoses?

Good catch. I meant to say "Sourcebook," not "Conversion Book." Thank-you.

Jorick · Unread post by **Jorick** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:11 am

Glistam wrote:
Jorick wrote:
Glistam wrote:The revised conversion book supercedes the original. If they did not reprint or revise that text then I personally wouldn't hold anyone to it, especially in a game using the Rifts: Ultimate Edition.

Is there something in the revised conversion book on hatchling metamorphoses?

Good catch. I meant to say "Sourcebook," not "Conversion Book." Thank-you.

I thought so, but I was afraid I missed something.

I think the revised sourcebook simply has no relevant info because the FAQ section was cut, which itself had nothing to do with the significant content of the original sourcebook. That is to say, the rule wasn't cut. It just wasn't reprinted. It was just in a FAQ before the website FAQ came to be (I'm guessing).

That being said, your point is still valid, because D+G can be considered a Rifts rule book (I know I use it as one), and the rules printed there are different and more recent.

Basically, old rules (SB1) are 24 hour delay after expiration. New rules (D+G) are 12 hour delay after expiration.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:00 am

Great finds Jorick. I even looked in D+G but apparently not carefully enough, went right past ability 15 on page 15.

The stuff in original Rifts Sourcebook is a bit confusing. First it is "hours per 48" but then 24 hour delay...

The impression I get from SB is that the transformation time is a sum so you could spread it out. Whereas in DB it sounds like it's a period that's fixed no matter how long you spend shifted during that period.

Let's say someone is a 1st level hatchling who can hold a metamorphosis for 2 hours. This was originally all 4 species in RMB though it seems only the Ice Dragon retained this in D+G (horn/thunder got doubled, fire has no hatchling/adult distinction). Along with Ice this also includes the Night Stalker, Serpent of the Wind, Cat's Eye, Snow Lizard and Whip Tailed.

Does this mean that if you morph into a human for 5 minutes, go back to your natural form for 110 minutes, and then spend another 5 minutes as a human, you will then be forced to revert to your dragon form? Or does 'time elapses' refer to sum time rather than start-finish including natural-form breaks?

Even then, it causes some weirdness. What if the hatchling spends the first 7 minutes of every day as a human for 17 days. All the rest of the time except for , he is in his natural form. Does this mean that on day 18, he is only able to spend 1 minute as a human and then he is forced to revert to his natural form?

The bit about ley lines and nexuses is also a bit ambiguous:

"If on or near a ley line or nexus point (within 2 miles), the time is tripled."

Whenever you are on/near a nexus, you are automatically on/near a ley line (since it is an intersection of 2) so why list both unless there is a difference?

The way this makes sense to me is "on" refers to "ley line" and "near" refers to "nexus". IE you have to be touching the ley line (still plenty of space, they're at least half a mile wide) but you don't have to be touching either of the 2 ley lines making the nexus, you just need to be within 2 miles of their border.

Regardless of what you rule in that effect, the mechanics of duration get a bit fuzzy when someone is moving in and out of the duration boost during this time. It's easy enough if you remain within it the entire time, but not a guarantee during gameplay.

I wonder if there is a way we could simply merge the policies of Sourcebook and Dragons and Gods to get more of a cohesive policy. Here's a shot:

1) reversion to dragon form is instant
2) changing to another shape takes 10 seconds (perhaps use this for adults in PF, it seems to be faster in Rifts, a level 1 hatchling is 15 seconds per RUEp351, reduced to 1/2 melee at 3rd level)
3) reversion to dragon form can happen whenever you want
4) changing to another shape can only happen if you have not morphed in the last 1D4 minutes
5) the hours of metamorphosis a dragon gets (2 in our example) is given every 48 hours
6) if you use up your hours pool, metamorphosis becomes impossible for 24 hours
7) if you use up the extra 200% hours from line-contact / nexus-proximity, it only is impossible for 12 hours (7 if adult)

The way I would keep track of it is to break it into smaller segments and treat it like a pool.

If a hatchling gets 2 hours per 48, that's 1 per 24, 30 minutes per 12, 15m per 6 hours, 5 minutes per 3 hours, 1 minute per 36 minutes, a melee round per 9 minutes, 5 seconds per 3 minutes, or 1 second per 36 seconds.

For other guys: halve this for the 1hour/level, increase 50% for 3hours/level, double for 4hours/level. Think this covers all the bases.

The "storage pool" would be the maximum per 48 hours (in example 2 hours) and you would subtract from this pool while you morphed, but you would also replenish this pool as time went by.

So if example hatchling ice dragon morphed for 1 minute, they would have to spend 35 minutes afterward in their natural form to get back to full (because you count the minute they stayed morph as accruing too).

In the case of ley line/nexus, you triple the regeneration rate and you triple the storage capacity.

This prevents silly tricks like "uh oh, only a minute left, jumping on this ley line, 4 more hours, yay" but still allows a realistic rate.

As for what happens when you step off the line: rather than instantly loosing the extra 200%, I think it would be more realistic (this is all house rules mind you) that you just really quickly lose your excess pool, say at the same speedy rate (x3) that you gained it in the first place.

This is still pretty slow and may have little effect if you are morphed anyway (if your current amount drains at 1 second per second and your max is draining at 1 second per 12 seconds) but it still gives some benefit to going to a line and then traveling from there to wherever else you need to go.

The 7/12/24 hour thing is like a 'system shock' if your pool ever reaches 0. The shock is equal to all dragons absent ley energy. It's 1/2 as bad for hatchling when exposed to ley energy, and even less bad for adults.

This is doable within the rules because D+G context of twelve/seven hours is actually right after they talk about the tripled duration, so we can take the 24 as applying when not on lines or near nexi.

As for how these shocks work: just say that you stay fixed at 0 and can't regenerate your pool until that duration elapses. Then it starts climbing again. This does mean that, if you morph back RIGHT AWAY when the shock duration ends, you won't be able to do it for very long. You'd have to wait 9 minutes just to get 1 minute as a human.

I think using rates makes it a lot more biological and interesting than a "magically every 48 hours" strangeness. If Palladium is going to abandon times-per-day spellcasting then they should abandon that kind of format for natural abilities as well. We can extrapolate these into rates sometimes.

guardiandashi · Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:52 am

re the transformation time. the way I would interpret it is:
1 its much like a gas tank for your vehicle it only holds a certain amount
2 when its not actively being drained (used) it recharges/refills
3 ONLY time spent in a non "natural" state counts for usage purposes
4 what the ley line/nexus bonus ACTUALLY means is that the usage rate there is 1/3 normal because its "easier" due to the extra energy.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:16 pm

I'd just have it always filling up, even when being drained. The net effect is still drain since it drians faster than it fills.

So say it fills 1point/minute and it drains 10/minute when used the net effect is draining 9/minute. Easier to just separately calculate the effects on the pool.

GaredBattlespike · Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:50 am

Fire dragons get no love?
Well, if the party has a Burster....Imagine the effects of a Burster enhancing the Fire Breath!

Also, the others are correct about the Super Psionics, the Royal Frilled is king among Dragon Psionics.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:12 pm

I do like the new fire dragon from the RUE the flame wind I think its called. That critter is a total beast in hand to hand combat. Light your scales on fire and start pouncing and grappling. Probably the best dragon for pure offensive close range damage and a good damaging breath weapon.

Still most tend to go great horned or royal frilled simply because they are statistically just better. More health magic and super psionics right from the start. The RUE royal frilled at least was some what offset by not having a damage dealing breath weapon although their claws make their hand to hand punching /clawing pretty ferocious.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:45 pm

I've always favored the Great Horned.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:28 pm

GH aren't so good after their dragons and gods nerf. They used to do 2D6 MD from their fire breath. Now only the Fire/Ice can still do MD per their "Rifts" stats while GH is "all others are unchanged" which would keep it SDC damage. I like it

Those guys were the Mary Sues and needed some kind of suck.

Best apology possible to make up for CB1 boosting the Great Horned up to the Fire's levels as an adult without giving the Fire Dragon an equal boost. CB1 should've at least given the Fire Dragon a d6x10 like the Hydra got. Also think it would've made sense to boost the Ice Dragon's to at least that of the Hydra too, since Adults should be better than Hatchlings. Even then, doesn't seem like enough, since it would make adultGH tied to adultIce. Something like 7d6 to 9d6 would be better.

Actually in all idealism, if CB1 was going to triple adult GH fire damage then fire should do 18d6 and ice should do 15d6. They should be better than a mere Hydra head.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:12 pm

Tor wrote:GH aren't so good after their dragons and gods nerf. They used to do 2D6 MD from their fire breath. Now only the Fire/Ice can still do MD per their "Rifts" stats while GH is "all others are unchanged" which would keep it SDC damage. I like it Those guys were the Mary Sues and needed some kind of suck.

Best apology possible to make up for CB1 boosting the Great Horned up to the Fire's levels as an adult without giving the Fire Dragon an equal boost. CB1 should've at least given the Fire Dragon a d6x10 like the Hydra got. Also think it would've made sense to boost the Ice Dragon's to at least that of the Hydra too, since Adults should be better than Hatchlings. Even then, doesn't seem like enough, since it would make adultGH tied to adultIce. Something like 7d6 to 9d6 would be better.

Actually in all idealism, if CB1 was going to triple adult GH fire damage then fire should do 18d6 and ice should do 15d6. They should be better than a mere Hydra head.

Bah, they still have a LONG metamorph ability and are one of the most gifted magic users among the Dragons. Hmm, if their fire is magic based, seeing as how they are creatures of magic, rather than biologically based... yeah less likely than just making it magic, then it should still turn to MDC when going into Rifts. I'll have to check that out thanks... wait CB1 or CB1 revised (i.e. not the first edition)?

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:23 pm

I believe dragons were left ouf of the revised Conversion Book, so the original one.

If we view D+G as replacing RMB/CB for dragons then there'd need to be some kind of 'change the SDC to MD' general rule for GreatHorneds to be able to inflict MD with their fire breath.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:31 pm

Tor wrote:I believe dragons were left ouf of the revised Conversion Book, so the original one.

If we view D+G as replacing RMB/CB for dragons then there'd need to be some kind of 'change the SDC to MD' general rule for GreatHorneds to be able to inflict MD with their fire breath.

You mean the General rule that any magic brought into Rifts does MD damage? That rule, which is already on the books? :wink:

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:20 pm

I've had excellent experiences playing the Chiang-Ku, all the RMB dragons, and the Basilisk (detailed in CB1, as I recall).

Pay special attention to the fact that the Basilisk can petrify things in addition to people.

I've never tried any of the RUE dragons, but they seem decent.

--flatline

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:07 pm

Zer0 Kay wrote:the General rule that any magic brought into Rifts does MD damage, which is already on the books

What are we talking about here? So if I bring an energy bolt spell from Nightbane it does MD in Rifts now even though the Rifts version of Energy Bolt does SDC?

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:02 pm

flatline wrote:I've had excellent experiences playing the Chiang-Ku, all the RMB dragons, and the Basilisk (detailed in CB1, as I recall).

Pay special attention to the fact that the Basilisk can petrify things in addition to people.

I've never tried any of the RUE dragons, but they seem decent.

--flatline

The RUE ones are almost all at least moderately stronger than the RMB versions. Most also have some extra special abilities like the cats eyes dominance gaze and the new snow dragons turn into a blizzard ability or the flame winds lighting their scales on fire making them insanely nasty in HTH.

Its not a huge difference but in general they are usually a bit higher MDC and a few more features than the older versions.

Blue_Lion · Unread post by **Blue_Lion** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:09 pm

I am kind of partial tot he cats eye.

one time a gm let me get away with making some one sing I am a little tea pot in the middle of battle.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:16 pm

Tor wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:the General rule that any magic brought into Rifts does MD damage, which is already on the books

What are we talking about here? So if I bring an energy bolt spell from Nightbane it does MD in Rifts now even though the Rifts version of Energy Bolt does SDC?

Wow your just a contrarian aren't you? Use the exception to the the rule.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:57 am

To reiterate, which rule are we talking about here? Where does it say all external spells or magic abilities automatically get converted to MD?

D*G explicitly tells us the Fire/Ice change to MD.

If there was a generic rule that would improve ALL the dragon breath damage to MD then why would they bother to do this?