How to skirt the high cost of MDC armor repair with plating!

[Tor]

There have been a lot of threads about MDC armor repair and/or the cost of it, including:

Dec 2004 viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32149
June 2005 viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41590
June 2008 viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90313
Dec 2008 viewtopic.php?f=8&t=98871
May 2009 viewtopic.php?f=8&t=103777
Dec 2010 viewtopic.php?f=8&t=119535

A lot of people take the 1200 credits / MDC per the Operator in RUE as a bare minimum unless they want to work at a loss...

But what about this...

New West page 178 says that in exchange for a movement penalty, you can add up to 20 MDC in plating, and it only costs 1000 credits per 2 MDC. So 500 credits/MDC saves you 700 credits/MDC compared to the Operator's bottom-line credit rating.

So what if instead of "repairing" the MDC plating you buy, you simply replace it with different plating?

Like you treat it like, you put on 20 MDC of plating, it gets destroyed, but rather than an Operator repairing the 20 MDC of plating for 24 000 credits (may as well just go buy a new suit) you just buy all-new plating that costs you 10 000 credits.

This trick won't work beyond the first (up to) 20 MDC since then it will harm the more complex (perhaps environmental) armor underneath, which would be more expensive to repair.

But it seems like a good cost-saving method when you take light damage.

It also creates an incentive to replace armor plating regularly, since in doing so, you can stick to paying lower-cost plate-replacement rather than higher-cost base MDC repair.

The high cost of repair would also I think naturally mean that there is a LOT of partial MDC armor out there.

If a new plastic-man costs 18 000 and it costs an operator 18 000 to repair 15 MDC, then if you ever took more than 14 MD to your 35 MDC plastic-man armor (less than half its capacity) it would make more economic sense to buy an entirely new Plastic-Man armor rather than pay to repair it to full. This is probably also the case for the majority of armors, even the ones that cost a lot more.

The use of disposable plating and repeating that addition when the additions get destroyed would help lessen that problem and decrease armor turnover, not to mention survivability.

It also seems like using Metal Spray (Merc Ops 117) is cheaper than paying to get repairs. 3 applications averaging 7 MDC for body armor is 21 MDC for 18 000 credits, or under 858 credits per MDC. The main downside there is that strange '24 MDC max, even with multiple applications' limit. I don't totally understand how that works...

Like if I lose 15 MDC to my armor, spray to restore it, then lose 10 MDC, am I only able to recover another 9 and not the final MDC because that would be 25? Or is that '25 in a single go' meaning that you lose "permanent non-sprayable" (kind of like permanent SDC loss in living beings) MDC (must-be-repaired) if you lose more than 24 of the total capacity? But nothing permanent if you manage to repair it regularly before it reaches that level of loss?

I recall a mention (and an existence) of another MDC spray in Dimension Book 2 or 3 but seem to be too tired to find it to compare tonight.

[Library Ogre]

I think the plating they are talking about is relatively disposable, ablative plating... kind of like putting armor on your power armor, and letting that get blown off, instead of your actual power armor being damaged.

As for why metal spray has a max MDC... ever try to repair something with duct tape? Ever reach the point where you're building a bridge of duct tape so you can duct tape other things to duct tape? Ever wonder if there's still any shoe under there, or if you're now just wearing duct tape attached to thin soles?

[kaid]

Oddly enough this is pretty much standard issue for combat borgs. Their extra armor is basically ablative armor plates that are used to absorb punishment from something relatively cheap to replace before doing any damage to expensive/harder to repair bionics.

[glitterboy2098]

pretty much when adding armor with "plating" this is the kind of thing your doing:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/201 ... -nc0fs.jpg
http://olive-drab.com/images/hmmwv_weap ... 700_03.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yzBj8vtV2vc/U ... rmored.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/P ... g~original

your taking bits of scrap material and bolting/welding/tying it to the outside of your vehicle/gear so that you can take a couple extra hits.

[Shark_Force]

well, that's the less fancy way of doing it. you could actually build a shell of sorts that is actually designed to be disposable. as noted, it is basically done with cyborgs, and the armoured veritech from robotech is the same idea (well, the same idea but with a whole lot more missiles anyways).

but really, it's nothing new to the setting. magic has been basically doing this since day 1, with the ability to stack armour of ithan on top of body armour to make it last longer.

[Library Ogre]

well, that's the less fancy way of doing it. you could actually build a shell of sorts that is actually designed to be disposable. as noted, it is basically done with cyborgs, and the armoured veritech from robotech is the same idea (well, the same idea but with a whole lot more missiles anyways).

"Same idea but with a whole lot more missiles" sounds like a great improvement on the idea.

[glitterboy2098]

well, that's the less fancy way of doing it. you could actually build a shell of sorts that is actually designed to be disposable. as noted, it is basically done with cyborgs, and the armoured veritech from robotech is the same idea (well, the same idea but with a whole lot more missiles anyways).

but if you do it the fancy way, it's not "plating", it's a custom designed piece of hardware so it would naturally use the higher costs found in the operator OCC listing.

[Alrik Vas]

well, if the plating is cheat, but professional instillation is what drives the cost, it might make sense.

[Hotrod]

If a modern-day piece of body armor gets hit in the ceramic plates, those plates that get hit and damaged are simply swapped out. I figure that's the way it goes with most armor in Rifts. Most suit surfaces probably have replacement plates that can be swapped out in a few minutes and are relatively cheap. All those environmental body armor features are probably the biggest reason those armors are so expensive.

[Shark_Force]

well, that's the less fancy way of doing it. you could actually build a shell of sorts that is actually designed to be disposable. as noted, it is basically done with cyborgs, and the armoured veritech from robotech is the same idea (well, the same idea but with a whole lot more missiles anyways).

but if you do it the fancy way, it's not "plating", it's a custom designed piece of hardware so it would naturally use the higher costs found in the operator OCC listing.

not really. custom-designed, yes, but why would it need to use the higher costs? it doesn't incorporate the electronics that a properly-designed suit of armour calls for. it's just a solid plate welded/bolted/glued/otherwise attached on top of the actual armour. it doesn't need to be environmentally sealed. it doesn't need to provide 100% perfect coverage.

i'd say there could be some pretty reasonabe cost savings.

[Tor]

I think the plating they are talking about is relatively disposable, ablative plating... kind of like putting armor on your power armor, and letting that get blown off, instead of your actual power armor being damaged.

Yeah, is what I mean, you effectively "repair" that 20 bonus MDC by simply replacing the plates that fall off, restoring MDC for cheaper. Plus attaching these seems like a lower-tech solution than armor repair, possibly requiring less skill to do?

As for why metal spray has a max MDC... ever try to repair something with duct tape? Ever reach the point where you're building a bridge of duct tape so you can duct tape other things to duct tape? Ever wonder if there's still any shoe under there, or if you're now just wearing duct tape attached to thin soles?

Yeah but I do wonder about the function of this.

Like say there is a huge scratch on the top of your helmet... you metal-spray it, and then you get scratched in the exact same place, which dislodges the MDC provided by the metal spray...

If that happened then you could actually just replace it indefinitely with the spray.

Which makes me wonder if it is a "24 all at once cap" or a '24 forever' thing. Like how would you be able to reset the counter? Pay to repair something already at full MDC?

Sheddable plating is easier to understand. I'd almost like to treat the metal-spray similarly. It is a 24 you can always recover, but damage beyond the 24 must be repaired, just like with plates. The only difference is that the plate MDC can be added to full MDC armor whereas the metal-spray needs space made for it by damage to work.

Although I don't really see why you couldn't spray metal-spray on full MDC armor and still get the bonus MDC by creating plates with them (perhaps with accompanying prowl penalties?)

Oddly enough this is pretty much standard issue for combat borgs. Their extra armor is basically ablative armor plates that are used to absorb punishment from something relatively cheap to replace before doing any damage to expensive/harder to repair bionics.

I just wish with borgs it was a bit more layered.

Like rather than "480 MDC, replace it all at once" maybe something like "you have 4 fallaway layers of 120 MDC" so that instead of the "I need to pay mucho creds to repair this" vs "I need a whole new suit even though I'm only down 90 MDC" by breaking it into sections you could do better micro-replacement.

If a modern-day piece of body armor gets hit in the ceramic plates, those plates that get hit and damaged are simply swapped out. I figure that's the way it goes with most armor in Rifts. Most suit surfaces probably have replacement plates that can be swapped out in a few minutes and are relatively cheap. All those environmental body armor features are probably the biggest reason those armors are so expensive.

One would think that repairing non-enviro armor would be easier/cheaper than enviro, the fixed 'creds per MDC' thing doesn't seem to care though.

The Robots>PA>BA in terms of expense/difficulty seems to be recognized, just not enviroBA>normBA.

The variable costs in Sourcebook 1 (did these basically get replaced by GMG and RUE?) confused me since I didn't know what a lot of the armors were, like what is 'padded' MDC armor? Seemed like a bad port from PF/HU. All I knew for sure was that 'plastic for plasticman' and 'everything else is probably ceramics'.

The high rate for repairing MDC plate sure cripples anyone wielding those epic 500 MDC Kuznya beasts.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, Tor, i think the reason the book pricing doesn't care about EBA vs non EBA, is because the game design principle was "how much CR should it cost to get your battle health back?" Not..."these advanced systems should cost more to repair, so we'll up the cost on that, after all, the materiel for armor is cheap overall."

They're basically saying, "Want your MDC back? Pay or borrow/steal for it and it ain't cheap because you need it to live."

it's not something that seems to be based off the internal consistency of the game's setting, and more of a game mechanic that sits on a survival vs money meta level.

[Tor]

i think the reason the book pricing doesn't care about EBA vs non EBA, is because the game design principle was "how much CR should it cost to get your battle health back?" Not..."these advanced systems should cost more to repair, so we'll up the cost on that, after all, the materiel for armor is cheap overall.

Sourcebook 1 originally had different rates for restoring MDC (in batches of 10) to different kinds of armor depending on the material it was made of, much like PF does.

[SpiritInterface]

Are we talking Schurzen skirts, reactive armor, applique armor, or a combination of two or more types?

[Alrik Vas]

they're talking mad max bolted on haphazard armor, I think.

[Shark_Force]

the original is probably closer to mad max armour (though i would say probably welded on rather than bolted as a guess).

the properly fitted stuff i was talking about is a bit closer to applique armour. don't think anyone has suggested something like schurzen skirts, although it makes me think that having an inexpensive MDC poncho that you can throw on over your regular armour to absorb the first bit of damage might be an interesting way to save on armour repairs as well.

[Alrik Vas]

yeah, you go through a lot of armor coats...

[Tor]

Shark you thinking the GI Joe rule would protect the underlying armor from the excess?

[Shark_Force]

i don't believe so.

rather, i'm just skipping the part where you weld the plating on.

let us suppose, for a moment, that there was an MDC poncho that had 20 MDC and costed 10,000 credits (just throwing out arbitrary numbers here. i know MDC ponchos can be a thing, because there is MDC clothing in the game, but i don't know offhand what price would make sense).

once it got hit once, maybe twice, the MDC should mostly be gone. but you can just buy another one for 10,000 credits, which is still cheaper than repairing the damage it took in place of your main armour.

basically armour plating, only it probably doesn't hurt your mobility as much and it doesn't take expensive tools or a workshop to put it on or replace it.

[Alrik Vas]

when something depletes armor, I tend to cut the remaining damage in half and apply it to the next target. this goes for armor to flesh, force field to armor and playing/shield to armor, whatever. it has worked pretty good so far.

though admittedly, it does make layering armor pretty strong.

[Tor]

MDC ponchos are also nice since they would disguise you wearing stronger armor underneath (maybe even disguise smaller power-armor variants), sounds good. NGR had some MDC clothes but were prohibitively expensive and I'm not sure if they were loose enough to wear armor under or tight enough to wear armor over.

Edit: Also I finally found where that stuff in Phase World was. Page 143. The 'Other Equipment' section was hidden between the Robots/PA section and the Tanks section, no wonder I couldn't find it right away.

There are some slight differences compared to the Metal-Spray on 117 of Merc Ops.

Since both things have the same name, I propose we come up with some kind of house name for each to distinguish them. "Phase Metal-Spray" (PM) and "Ops Metal-Spray" (OM) work for everyone? Or maybe "Phase-Spray" (PS) and "Ops-Spray" (OS)? *shrug* I wish I knew which company made this stuff so I could name it after that instead of the book it came from.

The Ops version says "from an alien dimension" so it sounds like it's intended to be the same. The cost being higher could account for high import costs and 3G>Rifts credit conversion I guess. But looking at function alone:

1) Phase-Spray requires MDC to be minimum of 1, Ops-Spray requires MDC to be minimum of 2.
2) Phase-Spray restores 1D4x10 to large objects, Ops-Spray only restores 4D6
3) Phase-Spray restores 4D6 to small objects, Ops-Spray only restores 2D6
4) Phase-Spray can restore up to 40 MDC (on the large objects), Ops-Spray is capped at 24 (which is cap for Phase on small stuff) regardless of size.

Basedo on the pattern of Phase-Spray's cap being the max you could roll in one application, I almost think the cap on these less effective variants ought to be 24 and 12.

[Hotrod]

Alternately, you could use the trapping/skinning animals skill with some tailoring and armorer skills and create your own MDC overcoats, ponchos, and armors from the supernatural creatures you kill. The right skills/tools can make armor repair a lot cheaper.

[Tor]

I suppose, but there can be costs associated with setting traps able to kill supernatural MDC beings, or the time needed to trek out to where they are located and use your wilderness skills (food, transportation fuel, etc) which make it hard for me to know the overally cost.