Dodge transferability in vehicles

[ShadowLogan]

Yet it only explicitly gives a strike/parry/dodge bonus. Not a "+ to all combat actions" as some other things do.

True, but PP is known to factor into things like Init bonus IF above 30 OR certain skills/abilities are known for example (New West has several examples), WB8's Leap Dodge is another example of the PP bonus applying outside of its listed S/P/D, or Auto-Dodge ability is possessed. While it isn't spelled out in the text, it is implied given various other examples that use PP or its bonus for things beyond just straight S/P/D.

Phrasing you are porting to p344 from the Crazies/Juicers/HU2 as if it were there, but it isn't.

It is there in meaning, if not the exact phrase. Pg344 is more wordy than C/J approach, but it still boils down to PP Bonus + any bonus specifically mentioned as Auto-Dodge (or automatic dodge).

It can't be both. It is correct.

Yes it can. If one looks at a very narrow portion of the text only, it is correct, but looking at the wider part of the text in that section that would be incorrect because under the NPCs specifically it says the same basic thing, but puts in the "plus" instead of "additional".

Far as I can tell the phrasing is the same in both cases.

The specific wording is similar in both cases, but not exact. With NPCs they specifically state "plus" not "additional". So if you are saying the phrasing is the same in both cases, then it is +2 attacks for living given NPCs specifically state 2 "PLUS" HTH/Boxing skills.

This is exactly the same as auto-dodging. Auto-dodging mentioning PP and auto-dodge bonuses is like the psychic combat section only mentioning HTH and Boxing. Neglecting other examples of bonuses does not exclude them from being able to be added.

I agree that the psychic combat section on attacks per melee is not intended to be taken as an absolute, but it doesn't change the fact that the only non PP Bonuses ever stated to apply have to include "automatic dodge" (or auto-dodge) in the text, other types of dodges do not apply.

Palladium.com's FAQ Combat Section #9 does state PP Plus Auto-Dodge Bonuses only. This can be reached under the Cutting Room floor section of the Resources. And it pre-dates RUE as I can find it in the Internet Wayback machine going back to Feb. of 1999 when the FAQ section started to answer rules question, here its labelled #12 instead of #9 as it is now.

[Tor]

PP is known to factor into things like Init bonus IF above 30 OR certain skills/abilities are known for example (New West has several examples)

True, prior to New West, the Conversion Book did introduce a bonus if you had it past 30, or if you were able to get sharp-shooting.

That doesn't do anything outside of those contexts though. RUEp284 similarly has over-30 IQs giving Perception bonus and MEs giving possession saves. They're explicit cases and don't mean lower attributes start benefitting those other areas.

WB8's Leap Dodge is another example of the PP bonus applying outside of its listed S/P/D

Or just an example of it applying to all kinds of dodges and not just the normal dodge, just like it applies to all kinds of parries, not just the basic Parry.

It is there in meaning, if not the exact phrase.

Phrase is the foundation of meaning.

Pg344 is more wordy than C/J approach, but it still boils down to PP Bonus + any bonus specifically mentioned as Auto-Dodge (or automatic dodge).

plus anything else, like bonuses to dodge or bonuses to all combat rolls, since neither are forbidden. However more wordy it is, it manages to say less with more, because the crazy/juicer have the required restrictional phrasing.

If one looks at a very narrow portion of the text only, it is correct, but looking at the wider part of the text in that section that would be incorrect because under the NPCs specifically it says the same basic thing, but puts in the "plus" instead of "additional".

RMBp37 (Psychic Combat - Attacs Per Melee)
"All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee."
"Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing."
"A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions."

I'm not perceiving a difference in meaning here.

The specific wording is similar in both cases, but not exact. With NPCs they specifically state "plus" not "additional".

True, but it seems like similar wording is being used to convey the same meaning.

So if you are saying the phrasing is the same in both cases, then it is +2 attacks for living given NPCs specifically state 2 "PLUS" HTH/Boxing skills.

Actually it says "plus additions", with "hand to hand combat or boxing skill" clarifying examples of additions.

Boxing provides an addition (+1) and Combat Skills provide those at higher levels. The attacks lised at level 1 do not have a plus sign, they are presented as describing a base, not an addition to something.

the only non PP Bonuses ever stated to apply have to include "automatic dodge" (or auto-dodge) in the text, other types of dodges do not apply.

For Crazies/Juicers and GMs who decide all auto-dodges should work this way, like in HU2. Strictly reading the text I can see no reason to exclude dodge bonuses for Cyber-Knights or Commandos.

Palladium.com's FAQ Combat Section #9 does state PP Plus Auto-Dodge Bonuses only.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... cle&id=215

Bonuses from Auto-Dodge come from the P.P. dodge bonus (if any), and any bonuses to auto dodge.

No restrictions so far.

This generally means your auto-dodge bonuses are less that normal dodge bonuses, so you may elect to auto dodge and use a smaller bonus, or do a normal dodge with higher bonuses (but using a attack/action).

This is contrasting the "automatic dodge" and "normal dodge" like we see in Atlantis page 141 for the Serpent (+2 to 'normal dodge' +3 to 'automatic dodge') contrast to the Equestrian on 143 which says "+2 to dodge" (no "normal")

Something explicitly only for normal dodges would not apply to automatic dodges, but something explicitly for dodges would have.

It saying that auto-dodge bonuses tend to be lower might be taken to mean that there was a mix-up for the Serpent and that it may have been intended to be +3 to normal dodge +2 to auto-dodge.

For the serpent Power Armour, the only bonuses to the automatic dodge, are from the armour/training, and P.P. bonuses (other normal dodge bonuses do not apply).

PA-exclusive like Crazies/Juicers.

This can be reached under the Cutting Room floor section of the Resources. And it pre-dates RUE as I can find it in the Internet Wayback machine going back to Feb. of 1999 when the FAQ section started to answer rules question, here its labelled #12 instead of #9 as it is now.

It sounds familiar and I believe you are right. I am interested in narrowing down this URL though. The furthest back I could find on Wayback is in 2005: https://web.archive.org/web/20050315000 ... ttingroom/

Ah maybe due to a URL change. The 'books' URL goes back to December 1998: https://web.archive.org/web/19980801000 ... mbooks.com

Using these I found:
https://web.archive.org/web/19981206214 ... utting.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/19990202145 ... utting.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20020423001 ... tting.html

ah but looking in the wrong spot...
https://web.archive.org/web/19990505180 ... index.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20000303051 ... index.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20000708111 ... ombat.html

Still can't seem to find Feb1999 but obv July 2000 is still prior to RUE so it's no big deal, just curious.

There is https://web.archive.org/web/19991012000 ... anfaq.html but it says Oct 1999 and also gives me an error.

It mentions on the functioning Combat.html that "1-126 Added 3-1-2000" too...

Still up for grabs whether "FanFAQ" is a 'FAQ by fans' or a 'FAQ for fans'. It lists Shawn Merrow as the guy you contact with questions about the page, not sure if was doing the actual answers though, wasn't he the webmaster? Or a freelance writer ?

[ShadowLogan]

Or just an example of it applying to all kinds of dodges and not just the normal dodge, just like it applies to all kinds of parries, not just the basic Parry.

Or PP Dodge Bonus should be read as "Any Type". In any case all it does is establish that the PP Bonus is more catchall in what it applies to unlike other Dodge type Bonuses.

Phrase is the foundation of meaning.

And there are ways to phrase things differently, but still have the same meaning. Pg344 does not in anyway allow regular/normal dodges bonuses, aside from PP, to apply to Auto-Dodge. They are most specific about that.

True, but it seems like similar wording is being used to convey the same meaning.

Yes it is, just like on pg344 and the J/C descriptions for auto-dodge.

For Crazies/Juicers and GMs who decide all auto-dodges should work this way, like in HU2. Strictly reading the text I can see no reason to exclude dodge bonuses for Cyber-Knights or Commandos.

In RUE pg344 "Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's PP attribute and any specical bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge')"
This is quote clear it works the same for CK or HTH:Commando, Juicers, Crazies, and anyone else with Auto-Dodge. Auto-Dodge Bonuses are restricted to specifically stated instances of it being is a bonus to automatic/auto-dodge, that is what is in parenthesis. Any other type of dodge bonus does not apply except PP.

This is contrasting the "automatic dodge" and "normal dodge" like we see in Atlantis page 141 for the Serpent (+2 to 'normal dodge' +3 to 'automatic dodge') contrast to the Equestrian on 143 which says "+2 to dodge" (no "normal")

Something explicitly only for normal dodges would not apply to automatic dodges, but something explicitly for dodges would have.

It saying that auto-dodge bonuses tend to be lower might be taken to mean that there was a mix-up for the Serpent and that it may have been intended to be +3 to normal dodge +2 to auto-dodge.

No actually it isn't. You are forgetting about the pilot's own HTH bonuses stacking from their skills/attributes (if any). Assuming the pilot has RCE already, skill modifers:
-HTH/Physical skills alone provide regular/normal dodge bonus at Level 2, unless they take HTH: Assasin or some other exotic style that doesn't include dodge bonuses early on. So a Level 2+ pilot with HTH: B/E/M will have a better ND bonus in Serpent PA than Ad
-any pilot with Athletics: General Skill equal the AD bonus at level 1, alone here
-any pilot with Boxing Skill will surpass the AD bonus at level 1, alone here
-Kittani naturally have a +1 to dodge (WB2 pg52 under bonuses), which like Athletics: General skill balances out AD vs ND all on its own. Some other classes/races also get bonuses to dodge naturally to.

What it means is that the Serpent's overall bonus to dodge is going to be better than automatic dodge in most if not all circumstances. The text you quoted does say generally, so it is not an absolute that the ND will always surpass the AD.

Ah maybe due to a URL change. The 'books' URL goes back to December 1998: https://web.archive.org/web/19980801000 ... mbooks.comp

From Feb (8th) of 1999: https://web.archive.org/web/20000708111 ... ombat.html

So sometime between January of 1999 and Feb of 1999 Palladium updated their site to include an actual FAQ section instead of passing it off to another site via link. Prior to Dec of 1998 I'm not sure what Palladium's website address was (or even if it had one). At this point in time the FAQ section (new style) was listed as a seperate link on the website and not accessed via the Cutting Room Floor.

[Tor]

Pg344 does not in anyway allow regular/normal dodges bonuses, aside from PP, to apply to Auto-Dodge. They are most specific about that.

They do not explicitly include it, but they don't need to, just like you don't explicitly need to mention to add a +strike to kick attacks.

Yes it is, just like on pg344 and the J/C descriptions for auto-dodge.

Nope, the psychic combat section is merely sentence division, p344 is a total lack of exclusion.

In RUE pg344 "Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's PP attribute and any specical bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge')"

Yup I've read it.

This is quote clear it works the same for CK or HTH:Commando, Juicers, Crazies, and anyone else with Auto-Dodge.

How?

It it had said "only come" instead of "come" that would be the end of this. I would suggest if Kev wants it this way that PB release a 2nd RUE errata with that change made and include it on any later printings. I can accept that change as the latest version of the rules.

Auto-Dodge Bonuses are restricted to specifically stated instances of it being is a bonus to automatic/auto-dodge, that is what is in parenthesis. Any other type of dodge bonus does not apply except PP.

The parenthesis is only describing 'special bonus specifially for it'. It has no bearing on the entire sentence, since PP bonuses do not say 'automatic dodge'.

From Feb (8th) of 1999: https://web.archive.org/web/20000708111 ... ombat.html

So sometime between January of 1999 and Feb of 1999 Palladium updated their site to include an actual FAQ section instead of passing it off to another site via link.

I don't understand where the 8 Feb 1999 date is coming from. What you linked to says "added 3-1-2000" and wayback says the snapshot was taken 8 July 2000.

[ShadowLogan]

They do not explicitly include it, but they don't need to, just like you don't explicitly need to mention to add a +strike to kick attacks.

They explicitly state that "automatic dodge" will be how it is specifically described in the text.

Nope, the psychic combat section is merely sentence division, p344 is a total lack of exclusion.

Sentence division or not, both sentences take different approach to get the same meaning. That is no different than how pg344 compares to the J/C description. They all mean the same thing.

It it had said "only come" instead of "come" that would be the end of this. I would suggest if Kev wants it this way that PB release a 2nd RUE errata with that change made and include it on any later printings. I can accept that change as the latest version of the rules.

Look at the part in parenthesis they do not leave any wiggle room in what is meant by "and any special bonus specifically for it" since it "will say 'automatic dodge'. That last part is pretty clear that bonuses that apply to auto-dodge will say they are auto-dodge bonuses. There is nothing that says non-PP normal dodge bonus applies or can apply since THEY DID NOT PUT IN "and (or plus) normal dodge bonuses" or anything like that in the text. The Juicer/Crazy description is no different, though more explicitly. I see no reason why the Juicer/Crazy would/should be penalized over everyone else in this case.

I don't understand where the 8 Feb 1999 date is coming from.

Don't know what to tell you. I'm at the 1999 page, I click on Feb 8th for that year and that is what it gives me.

[Tor]

They explicitly state that "automatic dodge" will be how it is specifically described in the text.

Gotta continue to disagree with you there.

Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say "automatic dodge").

The parenthesis is explaining "special bonus specifically for it" not "Bonuses to auto-dodge". Bonuses from the character's PP attribute do NOT say "automatic dodge", they just say dodge, so it can't be interpreted that way.

Sentence division or not, both sentences take different approach to get the same meaning. That is no different than how pg344 compares to the J/C description. They all mean the same thing.

The critical difference here is that while we agree that the psychic combat thing takes different approaches to get the same meaning, we do not agree with 344vJC so you see it as no different and I see it as different.

Look at the part in parenthesis they do not leave any wiggle room in what is meant by "and any special bonus specifically for it" since it "will say 'automatic dodge'.

I agree, it is very clear that special specific bonuses will say auto-dodge.

What is not clear is that there is text supporting to ONLY use special bonuses and PP bonuses. Only 2 examples of bonuses being listed does not make them the only possible source of bonuses, just like with psychic APM.

That last part is pretty clear that bonuses that apply to auto-dodge will say they are auto-dodge bonuses.

Wrong, that is only the case for 'special bonuses'. There is nothing saying only to use special bonuses and PP bonus to dodge is a clear counter-example to the assumption.

There is nothing that says non-PP normal dodge bonus applies

Doing so is not necessary, that is the default state for all dodges until excluded, as is done in HU2, for RUEjuicers and RUEcrazies. Only bonuses to "normal dodge" as opposed to "dodge" will be excluded from applying to non-normal dodging.

THEY DID NOT PUT IN "and (or plus) normal dodge bonuses" or anything like that in the text.

Not necessary. Bonuses to strike from PP would apply to modern weapons until the 'do not apply PP strike bonuses to modern weapons' text is recognized.

The Juicer/Crazy description is no different, though more explicitly.

It is more explicit in that 1 is more than 0. It is explicit and 344 isn't. KS can add an 'only' to the next RUE errata to fix it if intended. I'd suggest importing HU2's text.

I see no reason why the Juicer/Crazy would/should be penalized over everyone else in this case.

Drug/implant jitteriness doesn't mesh with hand to hand training very well while training-based auto-dodging (cyber-knights, commandos) does.

I'm at the 1999 page, I click on Feb 8th for that year

Can you copy the URL that comes up when you're there? The first 8 characters of the URL following archive.org/web/ is based on the date of the archive, YYYYMMDD. Not sure about the ones after it though. https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... ombat.html shows no 1999 bar for me.

[ShadowLogan]

Can you copy the URL that comes up when you're there? The first 8 characters of the URL following archive.org/web/ is based on the date of the archive, YYYYMMDD. Not sure about the ones after it though. https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... ombat.html shows no 1999 bar for me.

I honestly don't know what to tell you. I arrived at the page via the 1999 menu page for www.palladiumbooks.com, several times on different days (my browser clears cache when I close it).

The parenthesis is explaining "special bonus specifically for it" not "Bonuses to auto-dodge". Bonuses from the character's PP attribute do NOT say "automatic dodge", they just say dodge, so it can't be interpreted that way.

Its the same thing, what do you think "it" IS in reference to? It is "automatic/auto-dodge".

They are specifically giving PP Dodge bonus an exception by calling it out. We see it in other places, both the Crazy/Juicer Auto-Dodge descriptions in RUE and even the Leap Dodge in WB8 and again in Heroes Unlimited 2E for AD. This plus those special bonuses, which will state "Automatic Dodge" (or Auto-Dodge), nothing else.

Doing so is not necessary, that is the default state for all dodges until excluded, as is done in HU2, for RUEjuicers and RUEcrazies. Only bonuses to "normal dodge" as opposed to "dodge" will be excluded from applying to non-normal dodging.

No it is very necessary. "Normal Dodge" is the same thing as just saying "Dodge" by the rules, there is no need to say "Normal Dodge" just "Dodge" unlike "Automatic/Auto-Dodge" or "Leap Dodge" or "Backflip". That means that "Dodge" listings in skills/equipment/class/etc just apply to regular/normal type of dodges unless specifically said to apply elsewhere.

If other types of dodges are supposed to be a part of normal dodges they would all be covered in the same section, but they aren't. Auto-Dodge is listed separately. BackFlip can be used as a dodge (it avoids taking damage by spending one action and you have to roll vs strike), but doesn't get any Dodge Bonus. Then of course there is the Leap Dodge from WB8, which is treated as a separate manuever. Each of these separate manuevers is pretty clear that they only use specific bonuses.

Drug/implant jitteriness doesn't mesh with hand to hand training very well while training-based auto-dodging (cyber-knights, commandos) does.

Yet it is those same drugs/implants that are allowing the classes to execute AD due to their reflexes in the first place. Not to mention they receive bonuses to other areas of HTH (roll, pull punch, disarm, etc). So jitteriness doesn't seem to work as an explanation. In addition...

Nor does it explain the instance of Leap Dodge in WB8. Which mechanically is an Auto-Dodge. There is no Drug/Implants at play here, but they don't get any other dodge bonuses except from Leap and PP. Doesn't matter if you are a Tengu or human (who can learn the style).

Nor does it explain why the Backflip(:Defense) in RUE/WB8 (depending on which book they are handled slightly differently RUE is straight roll, WB8 only Bonus to Backflip). No Drug/Implants at play here either. But spending an action to dodge an attack is handled differently in terms of bonuses.

[Tor]

Its the same thing, what do you think "it" IS in reference to? It is "automatic/auto-dodge".

I'm goign to try to get my point across a different way.

"Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's PP attribute and any specical bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge')"

Here is how I read this sentence:

"Bonuses to auto-dodge come from A and B"
A: the character's PP attribute
B: any special bonus specifically for it (C)
C: the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge'

C is an elaboration upon what B is. It not applicable to A.

Since it does not apply to A (PP attribute table does not say "automatic dodge") ...

It therefore is not about the entire sentence, C is only about idea B, 1 of 2 examples within the sentence.

Once can certainly assume the author intended all auto-dodges to work the same. That Cyber-Knights and Commandos and Juicers and Crazies all operate the same.

I can definitely believe that.

However the actual text does not reflect that probable intention, is all I'm pointing out.

They are specifically giving PP Dodge bonus an exception by calling it out.

It is not presented as an exception, the lack of exclusionary language leads it to be presented as an example.

"Normal Dodge" is the same thing as just saying "Dodge" by the rules

I don't agree, if this were the case there would be no point in adding Normal ahead of it. Dodges are a class, normal is the default, auto/multi are variants.

there is no need to say "Normal Dodge"

That the book does so implies there is a need, and a specific purpose for doing it.

That means that "Dodge" listings in skills/equipment/class/etc just apply to regular/normal type of dodges unless specifically said to apply elsewhere.

Nothing I know of in RUE supports this except for text specific to the uniquely limited artificially-augmented auto-dodges of Crazies and Juicers. Page 344 of RUE is not page 67 of HU2. The games have fundamentally different text not just for auto-dodge, but also for disarm.

If other types of dodges are supposed to be a part of normal dodges they would all be covered in the same section, but they aren't. Auto-Dodge is listed separately.

A separate listing for a variant dodge does not mean a variant dodge does not use dodge bonuses.

RUEp347 has a listing for "Strike". It then separately lists "Punch" on 346, Karate Kick on 345, and body block/tackle on 344. Being listed separately doesn't mean these things do not use Strike bonuses, they are still strikes and qualify for the bonus.

Drug/implant jitteriness doesn't mesh with hand to hand training very well while training-based auto-dodging (cyber-knights, commandos) does.

Yet it is those same drugs/implants that are allowing the classes to execute AD due to their reflexes in the first place.

I'm not seeing your point.

they receive bonuses to other areas of HTH (roll, pull punch, disarm, etc). So jitteriness doesn't seem to work as an explanation.

Whatever the explanation (being able to dodge surprise attacks... wut) it is not cohesive with training-based awareness.

Come to think of it, "normal dodge bonuses" is kind of vague. Is a bonus to dodge from 6th sense "normal" ?

Leap Dodge in WB8. Which mechanically is an Auto-Dodge.

Hm, okay, WB8p69 "Tengu Automatic Leap Dodge".

Where does it say you can't use dodge bonuses here? This seems a lot like RUE's glossary, a mention that you can use PP and specific bonuses, but no boundary against using other ones.

Backflip(:Defense) in RUE/WB8 (depending on which book they are handled slightly differently RUE is straight roll, WB8 only Bonus to Backflip). No Drug/Implants at play here either. But spending an action to dodge an attack is handled differently in terms of bonuses.

Back Flip Defense in consulting Japan191 and RUEp344.

RUE first says "can be used as a dodge" then "used in place of a dodge" and then "do not include any dodge bonuses".

The first 2 statements seem contradictory. If it is 'used in place of a dodge' then it's implied not to be a dodge. I expect the first was supposed to be "can be used like a dodge".

Japan's version doesn't mention it being a dodge at all. It is "used in place of a dodge" and "using only the bonus to back flip" and "avoiding the attack like a dodge".

I don't see how this informs us about how automatic dodges work. Here is a case where we are explicitly told either "do not include any dodge bonuses" or "using only the bonus to back flip" (and it never being called a dodge).

The "as a dodge" in RUE seems to just imply that it is an avoidance technique. Even if we view it as a dodge, it is a dodge that does not use dodge bonuses, but that does not mean that we should assume all variant dodges do not use dodge bonuses.

That a possible dodge needs to specify that it doesn't use dodge bonuses implies that it otherwise would've been viewed as doing so if the disclaimer were absent.

[ShadowLogan]

It is not presented as an exception, the lack of exclusionary language leads it to be presented as an example.

But it is an exception since PP bonus from the attribute chart does not list auto-dodge as its normal features, so it is an exception. It is also an exception because it is the only non-auto-dodge stating source that applies per pg344 and the J/C descriptions. The J/C descriptions are quite clear that normal dodge bonuses do not stack. And the text does not support normal dodge bonuses stacking with auto-dodge outside of PP. This is the case in every Rifts Book I've seen where it address Auto-Dodge description, even in condensed form, no mention is made that this is what is supposed to occur (use normal dodge bonuses outside of PP to calculate Auto-Dodge). And quite the opposite given that some of those descriptions are clear that you don't add it in. I see no reason that the J/C have a "special form" of the Auto-Dodge compared to others for game mechanic purposes.

I don't agree, if this were the case there would be no point in adding Normal ahead of it. Dodges are a class, normal is the default, auto/multi are variants.

But it is. When you are playing how often do you see players/GM go "normal (or regular) dodge" in their declarations of actions compared to some specialist type of dodge (Leap, Auto, Tilt, etc). There is no need for it since it is assumed that when you declare a dodge without any adjective (Leap/Auto/Tilt, etc) it would be a normal/regular dodge. The only time it would be needed in print is to avoid confusion if you have bonuses to different types of dodging, and even then one can argue "normal" is more of a curtsey thing than anything else.

I'm not seeing your point.

The Juicer and Crazy ability to execute the auto-dodge is a direct result of their use of drugs and implants. So it makes no sense that those same sources would interfere with non PP dodge bonuses.

Hm, okay, WB8p69 "Tengu Automatic Leap Dodge".

Where does it say you can't use dodge bonuses here? This seems a lot like RUE's glossary, a mention that you can use PP and specific bonuses, but no boundary against using other ones.

We've been over this before. "+2 to leap dodge plus any P.P. bonus and additional leap dodge bonuses through Teng-jutsu training and experience." Pretty clear here that only PP and Leap Dodge bonuses apply since they don't even bring up the normal dodge bonus as a factor.

The "as a dodge" in RUE seems to just imply that it is an avoidance technique. Even if we view it as a dodge, it is a dodge that does not use dodge bonuses, but that does not mean that we should assume all variant dodges do not use dodge bonuses.

Actually it establish/strengthens the notion that dodge variants are specialized manuevers that utilize specific bonuses that do not include general normal dodge bonuses (non-PP Bonus). These variants will also list what bonuses apply if any, nothing more and sometimes they do make it clear not to add normal dodge bonuses.

[Tor]

it is an exception since PP bonus from the attribute chart does not list auto-dodge as its normal features, so it is an exception

It lists dodge, which applies to all dodges unless we are explicitly told otherwise, like in the case of Crazy/Juicer ones in RUE, or all of them in HU.

It is also an exception because it is the only non-auto-dodge stating source that applies per pg344 and the J/C descriptions

"only" for J/C yes, no 'only' language is present on 344.

the text does not support normal dodge bonuses stacking with auto-dodge outside of PP.

Auto-dodge being a "dodge" is text supporting this.

This is the case in every Rifts Book I've seen where it address Auto-Dodge description, even in condensed form

Oh? Not that this is the only example, but where do you get the idea that the (WB17p82) Reaver Assassin OCC in Warlords of Russia in any way indicates that he is only to use possible PP bonuses?

It "PP only" what is meant by "plus the usual bonuses" ? Do you take the Reassin's ability as introducing something unique, or simply par for the course for how auto-dodge had always functioned up until then?

Far as I can tell in history, the idea of normal dodge bonuses not applying was introduced competently in HU2 and then introduced for Crazies/Juicers in RUE (incompetently if intended to apply to people besides them, per 344 inadequacy)

some of those descriptions are clear that you don't add it in.

Yes, class-specific ones. Kind of like how Phaeton getting a dodge for undodging vehicles doesn't mean that everyone else does.

I see no reason that the J/C have a "special form" of the Auto-Dodge compared to others for game mechanic purposes.

There's nothing special about having reflex-enhancing brain implants or steroids altering your brain and movements, that couldn't interfere with training-based avoidance techniques at all.

There is no need for it since it is assumed that when you declare a dodge without any adjective (Leap/Auto/Tilt, etc) it would be a normal/regular dodge.

I don't agree. Prior to RUE making a bonus distinction for Juicers, I believe Juicers would simply say that they dodged something and the GM would know they meant an auto-dodge since Juicers didn't spend attacks to do it.

The same way if you said 'parry' the GM would assume you meant auto-parry.

The Juicer and Crazy ability to execute the auto-dodge is a direct result of their use of drugs and implants. So it makes no sense that those same sources would interfere with non PP dodge bonuses.

Sure it does. They can either opt to go with their gut (automatic reflex) or go with their training. The nonPP dodge bonuses can still be used, just not simultaneously with the auto-dodge bonuses.

That a Juicer and Crazies' auto-dodge does not benefit from their hand to hand training (or power armor, or 6th sense, etc) is simply fact now. I'm simply explaining why these things may no longer be of benefit.

Since other forms of auto-dodge are of an entirely different training-based nature (Cyber-Knight Zen Awareness, Commando HtH) I see no reason to assume why they suffer the same "your training doesn't help you in this realm" penalty these two modified-mortal OCCs suffer from.

We've been over this before. "+2 to leap dodge plus any P.P. bonus and additional leap dodge bonuses through Teng-jutsu training and experience." Pretty clear here that only PP and Leap Dodge bonuses apply since they don't even bring up the normal dodge bonus as a factor.

Yet there is nothing saying "only", you're adding it.

Not bringing up every source of bonuses doesn't mean that they do not apply.

RUEp344's first entry "Attacks per melee" says "Each specific Hand to Hand Combat skill will indicate how many attacks the character starts with."

It mentions nothing at all about being able to start with more attacks if you select Boxing, are piloting PA, are a Crazy/Juicer, have additional bionic arms, etc.

If we take the approach that bonuses to something do not apply just because they're not mentioned somewhere, it negates a lot of stuff.

Unless we are told "only A and B apply" then "A and B apply" is not an exhaustive list.

it establish/strengthens the notion that dodge variants are specialized manuevers that utilize specific bonuses that do not include general normal dodge bonuses

It really doesn't. Consider: when it was first introduced in N&SS/MC/Japan it was not called a dodge. In RUE, the idea it can be used "as a dodge" is immediately contradicted within the same section by saying that it is an alternative to dodging.

These variants will also list what bonuses apply if any, nothing more and sometimes they do make it clear not to add normal dodge bonuses.

A technique will not always list every possible source of bonuses that apply, that's simply wrong.

Sometimes they do make it clear not to add certain bonuses, agreed. In those cases I am 100% behind not doing so being the canon. Besides the Juicer/Crazy dodging, this is explicitly the case for some other kinds. Rifts China 2's Heroes of the Celestial Court has restrictive language for the Dog Boxing Side Flip (page 20) but it does not have it for Drunken Style Foot Play (page 21).

In cases where this is absent though (including the Tengu, who can use full dodge bonuses until this is explicitly outruled) there is no precident for excluding them.

What I would wonder is whether to lock HU2's general rule to anyone in the dimension, or to apply it to those originating from it. Like: would a Physical Training from HU2 who comes to Rifts gain the ability to add normal dodge bonuses? Would a Cyber-Knight or CS Commando who visits HU2 lose that benefit?

[Tor]

it is an exception since PP bonus from the attribute chart does not list auto-dodge as its normal features, so it is an exception

It lists dodge, which applies to all dodges unless we are explicitly told otherwise, like in the case of Crazy/Juicer ones in RUE, or all of them in HU.

It is also an exception because it is the only non-auto-dodge stating source that applies per pg344 and the J/C descriptions

"only" for J/C yes, no 'only' language is present on 344.

the text does not support normal dodge bonuses stacking with auto-dodge outside of PP.

Auto-dodge being a "dodge" is text supporting this.

This is the case in every Rifts Book I've seen where it address Auto-Dodge description, even in condensed form

Oh? Not that this is the only example, but where do you get the idea that the (WB17p82) Reaver Assassin OCC in Warlords of Russia in any way indicates that he is only to use possible PP bonuses?

It "PP only" what is meant by "plus the usual bonuses" ? Do you take the Reassin's ability as introducing something unique, or simply par for the course for how auto-dodge had always functioned up until then?

Far as I can tell in history, the idea of normal dodge bonuses not applying was introduced competently in HU2 and then introduced for Crazies/Juicers in RUE (incompetently if intended to apply to people besides them, per 344 inadequacy)

some of those descriptions are clear that you don't add it in.

Yes, class-specific ones. Kind of like how Phaeton getting a dodge for undodging vehicles doesn't mean that everyone else does.

I see no reason that the J/C have a "special form" of the Auto-Dodge compared to others for game mechanic purposes.

There's nothing special about having reflex-enhancing brain implants or steroids altering your brain and movements, that couldn't interfere with training-based avoidance techniques at all.

There is no need for it since it is assumed that when you declare a dodge without any adjective (Leap/Auto/Tilt, etc) it would be a normal/regular dodge.

I don't agree. Prior to RUE making a bonus distinction for Juicers, I believe Juicers would simply say that they dodged something and the GM would know they meant an auto-dodge since Juicers didn't spend attacks to do it.

The same way if you said 'parry' the GM would assume you meant auto-parry.

The Juicer and Crazy ability to execute the auto-dodge is a direct result of their use of drugs and implants. So it makes no sense that those same sources would interfere with non PP dodge bonuses.

Sure it does. They can either opt to go with their gut (automatic reflex) or go with their training. The nonPP dodge bonuses can still be used, just not simultaneously with the auto-dodge bonuses.

That a Juicer and Crazies' auto-dodge does not benefit from their hand to hand training (or power armor, or 6th sense, etc) is simply fact now. I'm simply explaining why these things may no longer be of benefit.

Since other forms of auto-dodge are of an entirely different training-based nature (Cyber-Knight Zen Awareness, Commando HtH) I see no reason to assume why they suffer the same "your training doesn't help you in this realm" penalty these two modified-mortal OCCs suffer from.

We've been over this before. "+2 to leap dodge plus any P.P. bonus and additional leap dodge bonuses through Teng-jutsu training and experience." Pretty clear here that only PP and Leap Dodge bonuses apply since they don't even bring up the normal dodge bonus as a factor.

Yet there is nothing saying "only", you're adding it.

Not bringing up every source of bonuses doesn't mean that they do not apply.

RUEp344's first entry "Attacks per melee" says "Each specific Hand to Hand Combat skill will indicate how many attacks the character starts with."

It mentions nothing at all about being able to start with more attacks if you select Boxing, are piloting PA, are a Crazy/Juicer, have additional bionic arms, etc.

If we take the approach that bonuses to something do not apply just because they're not mentioned somewhere, it negates a lot of stuff.

Unless we are told "only A and B apply" then "A and B apply" is not an exhaustive list.

it establish/strengthens the notion that dodge variants are specialized manuevers that utilize specific bonuses that do not include general normal dodge bonuses

It really doesn't. Consider: when it was first introduced in N&SS/MC/Japan it was not called a dodge. In RUE, the idea it can be used "as a dodge" is immediately contradicted within the same section by saying that it is an alternative to dodging.

These variants will also list what bonuses apply if any, nothing more and sometimes they do make it clear not to add normal dodge bonuses.

A technique will not always list every possible source of bonuses that apply, that's simply wrong.

Sometimes they do make it clear not to add certain bonuses, agreed. In those cases I am 100% behind not doing so being the canon. Besides the Juicer/Crazy dodging, this is explicitly the case for some other kinds. Rifts China 2's Heroes of the Celestial Court has restrictive language for the Dog Boxing Side Flip (page 20) but it does not have it for Drunken Style Foot Play (page 21).

In cases where this is absent though (including the Tengu, who can use full dodge bonuses until this is explicitly outruled) there is no precident for excluding them.

What I would wonder is whether to lock HU2's general rule to anyone in the dimension, or to apply it to those originating from it. Like: would a Physical Training from HU2 who comes to Rifts gain the ability to add normal dodge bonuses? Would a Cyber-Knight or CS Commando who visits HU2 lose that benefit?

[ShadowLogan]

Oh? Not that this is the only example, but where do you get the idea that the (WB17p82) Reaver Assassin OCC in Warlords of Russia in any way indicates that he is only to use possible PP bonuses?

It "PP only" what is meant by "plus the usual bonuses" ? Do you take the Reassin's ability as introducing something unique, or simply par for the course for how auto-dodge had always functioned up until then?

I don't have WB17, it would be foolish to assume I have every RPG Book Palladium has put out. And while I've seen it ages ago, don't remember much about said book. i remember it has a load of borg frames (unmemorable), some repeated skills, and a few hover vehicles. Bionics SB has implants reprinted from there.

The usual bonuses would be those for the specific manuever that are applicable. In the case of Auto-Dodge it will say "automatic/auto-dodge". Normal Dodge bonuses only get added in from PP normally. Those are the rules and how "plus the usual bonuses" should be taken.

There's nothing special about having reflex-enhancing brain implants or steroids altering your brain and movements, that couldn't interfere with training-based avoidance techniques at all.

Aside from the fact they get to keep those techniques w/o penalties you mean. The C/J don't take negative when they do a normal dodge after all, so if the approach is not interfering here, then it shouldn’t interfere in terms of AD if they are meant to stack (which they aren't).

I don't agree. Prior to RUE making a bonus distinction for Juicers, I believe Juicers would simply say that they dodged something and the GM would know they meant an auto-dodge since Juicers didn't spend attacks to do it.

The same way if you said 'parry' the GM would assume you meant auto-parry.

Parry you would be correct with given everyone/anyone with HTH training has automatic parry so it is less an assumption here, since characters are highly likely to have it. The GM would also know when it uses up an action or not.

I have played in games with AD/LD/Tilt-Dodge in play along with normal dodge and can tell you that the distinction was made when declaring what type of dodge action was occurring when it wasn't a plain vanilla normal regular dodge.

Yet there is nothing saying "only", you're adding it.

And yet there is nothing to say that you add any other type of "dodge" bonus in the text. Just PP and the specific type of dodge (leap, auto, or as the case maybe).

Per the rules bonuses are accumulative and "each combat maneuver is considered to be a separate category". Leap Dodge and Auto Dodge are considered to be a separate category of a combat manuever. So you would not add any normal dodge bonuses to either unless told to and which ones might apply. Just because they have "Dodge" in the name does not mean they are treated as the same combat manuever, and that is how Palladium presents Auto-Dodge as a separate combat manuever and not a subset of an existing manuever like Parry/Auto-Parry.

[Tor]

The usual bonuses would be those for the specific manuever that are applicable.
In the case of Auto-Dodge it will say "automatic/auto-dodge".
Normal Dodge bonuses only get added in from PP normally.
Those are the rules and how "plus the usual bonuses" should be taken.

Those are the usual rules in HU or for Crazies/Juicers in RUE. They certainly were not the rules at the time of Warlords (pre-RUE) and still aren't the case since RUE doesn't contain language to exclude dodge bonuses for non C/J guys.

Aside from the fact they get to keep those techniques w/o penalties you mean. The C/J don't take negative when they do a normal dodge after all, so if the approach is not interfering here, then it shouldn’t interfere in terms of AD if they are meant to stack (which they aren't).

I am not saying that these reflexes will ALWAYS interfere with training, just that they are not able to combine with training.

Kind of like how in HU the major power of Supernatural PS cannot stack with PS bonuses from training.

It's a one or the other thing. Sure, the PS bonuses from your physical skills apply if you're ever victim to Negate Super Powers, but aside from that, you're likely to rely on the enhanced version.

Parry you would be correct with given everyone/anyone with HTH training has automatic parry so it is less an assumption here, since characters are highly likely to have it.

Only OCCs which start with a hand to hand skill are likely (well, guaranteed) to have it. To assume classes that do not start with it will have it is simply catering to assumptions of power-gaming. To assume players will either pick a class with HtH or upgrade a class that lacks it seems wrong, even if it's likely due to Rifts catering to power-gamers. However true it might be for players, it wouldn't be true of many NPCS even if GMs might often power up NPCs to provide direct competition.

I have played in games with AD/LD/Tilt-Dodge in play along with normal dodge and can tell you that the distinction was made when declaring what type of dodge action was occurring when it wasn't a plain vanilla normal regular dodge.

Considering that you probably do not allow non-PP non-auto dodge bonuses to apply to AD/LD/TD then this would make sense since there would actually be a reason to use normal dodge bonuses for higher bonuses.

For people who don't play that way except when an ability warrants it (like how Juicers worked for a long time) they would not need to specify auto, it was just understood they dodged but didn't lose an action.

there is nothing to say that you add any other type of "dodge" bonus in the text
Just PP and the specific type of dodge

Not necessary, attacks per melee doesn't exaustively list every source of an attack bonus either.

bonuses are accumulative and "each combat maneuver is considered to be a separate category".

That bit is about strikes and dodges being different, not dodges and dodges.

Leap Dodge and Auto Dodge are considered to be a separate category of a combat manuever.

There's different levels of categories. If you think that having its own glossary heading means too differently categorized to overlap, then you must similarly conclude that 'strike' and 'punch' and 'karate kick' are all different 'categories' too.

Just because they have "Dodge" in the name does not mean they are treated as the same combat manuever[/quote]
I'm not calling them the same maneuver, I'm calling them in the same category of maneuvers.

Normal dodging and auto-dodging are both dodging, just as punching and tackling and kicking are all striking. Even a body flip (which I don't really think of as a 'strike', personally) can do a 'critical strike'.

that is how Palladium presents Auto-Dodge as a separate combat manuever and not a subset of an existing manuever like Parry/Auto-Parry.

Yes, and I guess punching is not a sub-set of striking, then? Your logic falls apart when we look at other examples of different glossary headings.

[ShadowLogan]

trim and condensing replies

They certainly were not the rules at the time of Warlords (pre-RUE) and still aren't the case since RUE doesn't contain language to exclude dodge bonuses for non C/J guys.

Even in pre-RUE days you where not supposed to add normal dodge bonuses. No where is that stated that you add in normal non-PP dodge bonuses to your auto/leap dodge attempt. And the 3 entries in RUE concerning auto-dodge are all in agreement on what bonuses they say to use, and none of them conflict since pg344 does not say anything about adding normal dodge bonuses outside of PP. So a literal interpretation of pg344 (and RMB-era) would be that you don't add non-PP normal dodge bonuses.

'm not calling them the same maneuver, I'm calling them in the same category of maneuvers.

So you admit they are different maneuvers as you use the plural tense. The text I quoted is singular ("each combat maneuver is considered to be a separate category"), so they are not stacked because each maneuver is in fact its own category. Auto-Dodge is a separate maneuver and category from the Normal Dodge. Just like Strike, Parry, Roll, etc are considered separate maneuvers in their own categories.

Yes, and I guess punching is not a sub-set of striking, then? Your logic falls apart when we look at other examples of different glossary headings.

[/quote]
Actually it doesn't fall apart at all. Given that:
-While punch/kick uses the same strike bonus, there are multiple types of either all with their own damage dice code and that dice code doesn't stack
-Strikes with modern weapons don't even use the HTH Bonus (or even PP Bonus) to strike, they use specific to strike (WP, rare other skill). So we can have similarly named combat manuevers that don't have bonuses that stack.
-Tilt Dodge maneuver (mega-versal aspect here, not found in Rifts specifically), IS A DODGE, but doesn't use any of the normal dodge bonuses, including PP.

[Tor]

Even in pre-RUE days you where not supposed to add normal dodge bonuses.

Source?

No where is that stated that you add in normal non-PP dodge bonuses to your auto/leap dodge attempt.

It didn't have to be. They were dodges, they enjoyed the bonus except in situations where it was specified not to.

the 3 entries in RUE concerning auto-dodge are all in agreement on what bonuses they say to use

But not the ones they say not to use.

none of them conflict since pg344 does not say anything about adding normal dodge bonuses outside of PP. So a literal interpretation of pg344 (and RMB-era) would be that you don't add non-PP normal dodge bonuses.

The logical interpretation is that you do not arbitrarily apply restrictions unique to the Crazies and Juicers. If it were the other way around, you wouldn't need those notations in the OCCs at all because the restriction in the glossary would apply to them.

Auto-Dodge is a separate maneuver and category from the Normal Dodge. Just like Strike, Parry, Roll, etc are considered separate maneuvers in their own categories.

Source? So far you have pointed out there being separate glossary listings, but that doesn't prove anything, since I've pointed out Strike and Punch/Kick also being separate.

it doesn't fall apart at all. Given that:
-While punch/kick uses the same strike bonus, there are multiple types of either all with their own damage dice code and that dice code doesn't stack

However they are both a "strike" and are listed separately from that in the glossary.

If auto-dodge being listed separately from dodge means that auto-dodge is not a kind of dodge, then punch being listed separately from strike means that punch is not a kind of strike. Can't have it both ways.

Strikes with modern weapons don't even use the HTH Bonus (or even PP Bonus) to strike, they use specific to strike (WP, rare other skill). So we can have similarly named combat manuevers that don't have bonuses that stack.

Yes: in situations where we are specifically told they do not stack. Like modern WP and Craze-JuiceAD, but not with other auto-dodges.

Tilt Dodge maneuver (mega-versal aspect here, not found in Rifts specifically), IS A DODGE, but doesn't use any of the normal dodge bonuses, including PP.

I don't think making Megaversal appeals would be in the interest of solving anything. If that worked, you could appeal to the HU glossary, but it's quite in conflict with N&SS's auto-dodge or anything else that says it's like a normal dodge.

As I'm having trouble finding it in RMB/RUE, I'll go read about the tilt dodge in HU2p87. I actually don't see anything about not using normal dodge bonuses. The weirdness is just that you're rolling percentile under your skill instead of rolling d20 to match or better a strike. It seems like a lesser version of "Evasive Action" which itself is called "fleeing or dodging".

The main problem is that if you add to what you roll on a skill roll, it makes you more likely to fail. So you could convert this either by subtracting instead, or just add the roll bonus to your skill. Up to the GM to interpret which if any they want to do. If you opt not to use it due to incompatibility (d20v%%) then it's not so much the bonus not applying, just that it can't be used without modification. The fusion of perception rolls and detect concealment/ambush comes to mind as a similar case.

[ShadowLogan]

Source?

Pre-RUE there is no text that says to add the normal dodge bonuses to auto-dodge bonuses. There has to be text stating that is the rule, but there isn't any text of that nature. The lack of text implies that it is a negative.

But not the ones they say not to use.

They are stating which ones to use, and by implication anything not on that list you would not use.

If auto-dodge being listed separately from dodge means that auto-dodge is not a kind of dodge, then punch being listed separately from strike means that punch is not a kind of strike. Can't have it both ways.

Except that we know there are different kinds of strikes and they don't all stack. So there can be different types of dodges, and those types of dodges won't stack aside from the PP value. In fact that is what the rules say given that they say either identify specific sources (LD/AD only plus PP) and omitting reference (indicating you don't given they just listed what to use) or when they do bring it up outright it is a negative (seen in HU2E, J/C OCCs in RUE).

As I'm having trouble finding it in RMB/RUE, I'll go read about the tilt dodge in HU2p87. I actually don't see anything about not using normal dodge bonuses. The weirdness is just that you're rolling percentile under your skill instead of rolling d20 to match or better a strike. It seems like a lesser version of "Evasive Action" which itself is called "fleeing or dodging".

Because it isn't in RMB/RUE (which IINM has never described the piloting "stunt/manoeuvers" that are possible like as can be found in HU2E, RT1E, N&SS, Macross 2, etc in any Rifts Book AFAIK). Tilt Dodge doesn't say thing about rolling a D20 to execute the manoeuver. The way it is presented it is a D100 vs D20. Though I could see it as a D20 vs D20 w/D100, but the D100 roll wouldn't benefit from any D20 bonuses.

The main problem is that if you add to what you roll on a skill roll, it makes you more likely to fail. So you could convert this either by subtracting instead, or just add the roll bonus to your skill. Up to the GM to interpret which if any they want to do. If you opt not to use it due to incompatibility (d20v%%) then it's not so much the bonus not applying, just that it can't be used without modification. The fusion of perception rolls and detect concealment/ambush comes to mind as a similar case.

At Rifts Piloting Proficiency level, yes D100 vs D20 is likely to fail in a lot of cases unless you get really high level (and/or some decent bonuses). Skill levels in Rifts are lower than some other lines in the past (ex 1E RT vs RMB Pilot Auto or Jet has a 20% difference, Helicopter has 25%, in all 3 examples 1E RT is higher than RMB.)

[eliakon]

Punch is a strike. Kick is a strike. Rifles are a strike.
You do not add your +punch strike +kick strike and +Rifle strike bonus when attacking with a grenade.....

[say652]

A Pheaton Juicer can Dodge, pardon AutoDodge in vehicles that can not dodge. Like tanks or Giant Robots if the are moving at least 60mph.

Js.

[Tor]

Phaetons are cool.

Pre-RUE there is no text that says to add the normal dodge bonuses to auto-dodge bonuses. There has to be text stating that is the rule

No, there doesn't have to be text like that, any more than there needed to be text saying to add parry bonuses to automatic parry, or bonuses to strike to fist strikes. If something is party of a category (automatic dodge of dodge, automatic parry of parry, fist strike of fist) then a category bonuses applies to category members unless excepted.

They are stating which ones to use, and by implication anything not on that list you would not use.

"All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from hand to hand skills and boxing."

It doesn't mention robot combat: basic or an extra pair of arms or crazy/juicer conversion, so I guess that implies you would not use those bonuses. Only HtH and boxing can boost your attacks because these are the only examples mentioned.

Except that we know there are different kinds of strikes and they don't all stack.

I'm not seeing what you're interpreting as an exception here.

While it is true that +1 to kick strikes would not help your punches and +1 to hand strikes would not help your kicks, +1 to strike would help both.

In this way, a bonus to automatic dodge does not help a non-automatic dodge, but a bonus to dodge does help an automatic one. Cept for Crazies/Juicers in RUE because they fail it.

that is what the rules say given that they say either identify specific sources (LD/AD only plus PP) and omitting reference (indicating you don't given they just listed what to use)

As per 'attacks per melee', identifying specific sources does not exclude non-identified sources. Omitted reference is not out-ruling.

when they do bring it up outright it is a negative (seen in HU2E, J/C OCCs in RUE).

Which is done in specific context-based cases and applies to everything under their umbrella, but not things outside of it.

Tilt Dodge doesn't say thing about rolling a D20 to execute the manoeuver. The way it is presented it is a D100 vs D20

I don't see it actually opposing a D20 at all, to succeed you have to roll under your skill percentage, the immensity of the strike roll doesn't appear to matter.

If a GM wanted it to, they could as a house rule use the resisted strike roll as a skill penalty (or a bonus to the roll trying to go under it) just as a GM might opt as a house rule to add the dodge bonus as a skill bonus (or a subtraction to the roll trying to go under it)

Punch is a strike. Kick is a strike. Rifles are a strike.
You do not add your +punch strike +kick strike and +Rifle strike bonus when attacking with a grenade.....

Which is nowhere near approaching addressing my argument, burn that straw man and move on please.

Just because Logan responds as if I'm arguing that way doesn't mean I am.

I am not saying you add an auto-dodge bonus to a multiple dodge or leap dodge or tilt dodge, I'm saying you added a dodge bonus to an auto-dodge because it was ... a dodge.

[eliakon]

Punch is a strike. Kick is a strike. Rifles are a strike.
You do not add your +punch strike +kick strike and +Rifle strike bonus when attacking with a grenade.....

Which is nowhere near approaching addressing my argument, burn that straw man and move on please.

It isn't a straw man. The argument is that all dodge bonuses of all sorts apply to all dodges. We can show though that not all strike bonuses apply to all strikes, thus demonstrating that there is not a rule that requires that all similar items apply to all similar events.
If we can have different kinds of strikes that take different kinds of strike bonuses, then we can also have different kinds of dodges that have different kinds of dodge bonuses.

The question then becomes "what dodge bonuses apply to what dodges" and the answer is "that depends on the edition your using."
In RMB all dodge bonuses applied to all dodges because autododge was not a separate maneuver, instead it was simply a way to perform a normal dodge with out paying the normal price.
In RUE Autododge only gets certain dodge bonuses because it is now a specific maneuver and thus it only gets bonuses that are explicitly for it. Just as certain attacks do not get all strike bonuses.

[Tor]

The argument is that all dodge bonuses of all sorts apply to all dodges

No, it isn't, it's that "dodge" bonuses apply to all dodges, not that "X dodge" bonuses apply to all dodges.

In RUE Autododge only gets certain dodge bonuses because it is now a specific maneuver and thus it only gets bonuses that are explicitly for it

Being a specific maneuver does not mean you only get bonuses explicitly for that maneuver. A karate kick is a specific maneuver, it gets generic strike bonuses, and generic kick bonuses, not just bonuses specifically for karate kick.

[ShadowLogan]

No, there doesn't have to be text like that, any more than there needed to be text saying to add parry bonuses to automatic parry, or bonuses to strike to fist strikes. If something is party of a category (automatic dodge of dodge, automatic parry of parry, fist strike of fist) then a category bonuses applies to category members unless excepted.

There most certainly does. Strike Bonuses when they appear can appear with qualifiers on them, qualifiers which make them no different than putting the qualifier of "automatic" with dodge and can apply only at certain times. Parry may be an exception w/n the rules since automatic parry and parry are presented together. Dodge and its variants are never presented together. And we know different types of strikes use different sets of strike bonuses.

It doesn't mention robot combat: basic or an extra pair of arms or crazy/juicer conversion, so I guess that implies you would not use those bonuses. Only HtH and boxing can boost your attacks because these are the only examples mentioned.

But those are cases where they specifically state it and would be exceptions to the general statement about APM. No such exception exists with regard to Dodge stacking with Auto-Dodge outside of PP. So if it is not on the list, and an exception can't be found then it doesn't apply.

Case in point that exceptions can exist within the rules example: Under normal circumstances a character would be -10 to parry or dodge gunfire/energy blasts in RMB-era (RUE has changed things up a bit), but there are megaversal cases where the rules have exceptions presented (1E RT has an instance of straight unmodified die roll for the defender w/o other penalties in one or two places to parry, Rifts Samurai use a different set of penalties, the PF2E Long Bowman also uses a different set of penalties, the Psi-Shield power can't even be used to do that, etc).

I'm not seeing what you're interpreting as an exception here.

Ranged Attacks use completely separate bonus to strike. Those bonuses are said to not stack with HTH or PP (exceptions exist, but those exceptions state to do as much). So Auto-Dodge and normal Dodge can be seen as general Ranged Attacks and general Melee Attacks, they don't stack in terms of strike bonuses because they use different fundamentals, even though they are both "strikes". The only time you would is if told to do so.

I don't see it actually opposing a D20 at all, to succeed you have to roll under your skill percentage, the immensity of the strike roll doesn't appear to matter.

For all practical purposes Tilt Dodge is a D100 vs D20 roll. The character wouldn't be rolling for a tilt dodge (d100) unless the attacker's strike roll (a d20) was successful. A Tilt Dodge can't beat a natural 20 (rules state only another natural 20 can beat it, Tilt-Dodge and other skills don't say it can beat a natural 20).

[Tor]

Strike Bonuses when they appear can appear with qualifiers on them, qualifiers which make them no different than putting the qualifier of "automatic" with dodge and can apply only at certain times.

Correct: auto-dodge bonuses only apply to automatic dodges. Auto-dodge is a kind of dodge just like kicking is a kind of strike.

Dodge and its variants are never presented together.

Nor are tackle and punch and strike. You get strike bonuses to punch/tackle but you don't get a punch bonus to tackle or a tackle bonus to punch. Strike is a category just as Dodge is.

those are cases where they specifically state it and would be exceptions to the general statement about APM.

Having dodge in the name, it's also a specific exception.

Under normal circumstances a character would be -10 to parry or dodge gunfire/energy blasts in RMB-era (RUE has changed things up a bit), but there are megaversal cases where the rules have exceptions presented (1E RT has an instance of straight unmodified die roll for the defender w/o other penalties in one or two places to parry, Rifts Samurai use a different set of penalties, the PF2E Long Bowman also uses a different set of penalties, the Psi-Shield power can't even be used to do that, etc).

Speaking of that, since it doesn't say -10 to auto-dodge, do you think this penalty doesn't apply?

Ranged Attacks use completely separate bonus to strike. Those bonuses are said to not stack with HTH or PP

I'm not so sure about that. I remember Modern WP being excepted but not thrown/archery. Maybe that changed in a later book?

Even so, we're explicitly told not to use HtH/PP for guns, we're not explicitly told not to use HtH/other non-PP dodge bonuses in auto-dodge (cept Cra-Ju)

For all practical purposes Tilt Dodge is a D100 vs D20 roll. The character wouldn't be rolling for a tilt dodge (d100) unless the attacker's strike roll (a d20) was successful. A Tilt Dodge can't beat a natural 20 (rules state only another natural 20 can beat it, Tilt-Dodge and other skills don't say it can beat a natural 20).

For all practical purposes, the D20 does not affect the success of a tilt dodge at all. If it's a miss, you don't need to roll it (no need). If it's a natural 20, you don't need to roll it (no point).

*kind of wonders if a 20% is rolled if that would count*

[ShadowLogan]

Correct: auto-dodge bonuses only apply to automatic dodges. Auto-dodge is a kind of dodge just like kicking is a kind of strike.

And auto-dodge has always been identified and clarified to NOT use other dodge bonuses aside from PP. To compare it to strike, AD and ND are like using modern ranged weapons and melee attacks (weapon, limb, etc). They don't stack by default.

Having dodge in the name, it's also a specific exception.

No it isn't. Exceptions must be spelled out, and "what's in a name" is not enough. Auto-Dodge states the only bonuses that apply are defined as automatic/auto-dodge and PP dodge. Nothing more. We can also see that Backflip can be used as a dodge, but doesn't have "dodge" in the name. And "Tilt Dodge" piloting certainly doesn't work like a normal dodge. What's in a name doesn't establish what bonuses work with itW.

Speaking of that, since it doesn't say -10 to auto-dodge, do you think this penalty doesn't apply?

Yes actually I do. Auto-Dodge works just like an automatic parry (per text), but automatic parry takes the penalty also so I can't see additional defensive maneuvers getting exception.

Even so, we're explicitly told not to use HtH/PP for guns, we're not explicitly told not to use HtH/other non-PP dodge bonuses in auto-dodge (cept Cra-Ju)

And we're explicitly told to use PP and specific automatic dodge bonuses when calculating Automatic Dodge, nothing else. That really isn't much different than the Backflip maneuver that is a dodge, nor the Leap Dodge.

[Tor]

auto-dodge has always been identified and clarified to NOT use other dodge bonuses aside from PP

Not sure what you mean by "always". This was added into HU2. Is it present in any other core books? RUE came after HU2 so it is more recent and applicable and lacks the net-outlaw.

To compare it to strike, AD and ND are like using modern ranged weapons and melee attacks (weapon, limb, etc). They don't stack by default.

Are you talking about PP bonuses (aside from Sharpshooter) not applying to modern ranged weapons' shots?

If so: they DO stack by default. That's exactly why we have to be told (and are told) not to stack them, to override that default.

HtH might be diff since if you took it super-literally you could say "hand" not only excludes weapons, but even kicking. But if you take it to mean introduction of generic bonuses, it needs a reminder of modernWP exclusion just like PP, or any OCC bonuses.

We can also see that Backflip can be used as a dodge, but doesn't have "dodge" in the name.

Earlier mentions of it being "like a dodge" indicate the 'as as' is paraphrasing. Plus we're told to only use these bonuses, so this overrides a default state of including them if you consider it a dodge.

do you think this penalty doesn't apply?

Yes actually I do.

I probably shouldn't have worded the question including a negative, not sure I'm clear on your answer based on the follow-up...

automatic parry takes the penalty also so I can't see additional defensive maneuvers getting exception.

This isn't a penalty to 'all defense maneuvers', it doesn't apply to things like automatic body flip, roll with impact, entangle, etc unless the GM house-rules it. The same way that a bonus to strike/parry/dodge (like a Hyperion Juicer gets) isn't a bonus to all combat maneuvers.

You've been insisting that automatic parry just falls under parry, but since you insist automatic dodge doesn't fall under dodge, why would Automatic Parry inheriting a Parry penalty lead to an Automatic Dodge inheriting a Dodge penalty?

we're explicitly told to use PP and specific automatic dodge bonuses when calculating Automatic Dodge, nothing else.

Your summary can be easily misinterpreted.

We are not told other bonuses to add (just like Attacks Per Melee doesn't mention OCC bonuses or Robot Combat) but we are not told 'nothing else', in case anybody read it that way.

That really isn't much different than the Backflip maneuver that is a dodge, nor the Leap Dodge.

The Leap Dodge is in a similar boat: unless we are told not to add standard dodge bonuses to it, we would still add them, even if we aren't reminded of that. We must be told to exclude them.

[eliakon]

That really isn't much different than the Backflip maneuver that is a dodge, nor the Leap Dodge.

The Leap Dodge is in a similar boat: unless we are told not to add standard dodge bonuses to it, we would still add them, even if we aren't reminded of that. We must be told to exclude them.

I would say the opposite.
Leap dodge is not dodge. Only dodge is dodge. Anything else is a different maneuver and needs its own bonuses. The dodge bonuses apply to the dodge maneuver. They do not apply to any other maneuver, for that you need to use that maneuvers bonuses.

[Tor]

+1 to strike is +1 to all strikes except those noted otherwise
+1 to dodge is +1 to all dodges except those noted otherwise

Crazies/Juicers note otherwise. The maneuver in the glossary does not. Cyber-Knights do not. Commando does not.

[eliakon]

+1 to strike is +1 to all strikes except those noted otherwise
+1 to dodge is +1 to all dodges except those noted otherwise

Crazies/Juicers note otherwise. The maneuver in the glossary does not. Cyber-Knights do not. Commando does not.

+1 to strikes does not mean that its +1 to backflips or +1 to disarms.....those are also described as 'strikes' but the question of if they get the +strike bonus is....murky.

Thus +dodge applies to all dodges. It does not apply to anything that is not a dodge. Additional words make it something else. Thus a tilt-dodge is not a dodge, and auto-dodge is not a dodge. Only A=A.

[Tor]

Whether a back flip or disarm would get a strike bonus depends on the context. A disarm can be done as a defensive move, in that case it wouldn't (not that it would've done any good, needing a natural roll). It would get it for an offensive move though.

A back flip "combined strike" would not get a strike bonus only because we are told "use only the bonus to back flip". We are not told "use only the dodge bonus from PP and bonuses to auto-dodge" like in HU2.

Additional words do not make something 'something else'. A square rhombus is still a rhombus. If all rhombi are red then all squares are red. If all rhombi double in size, all your squares do.

Auto-dodge is a dodge, that's why dodge is in the word. It's not as if it's called a non-dodge or an anti-dodge or something to imply it is no longer a dodge.

It isn't a "normal" dodge, but most bonuses are to dodge (ie all dodges) not just to normal dodge (the Serpent PA being the only exception I can recall)

[ShadowLogan]

Not sure what you mean by "always". This was added into HU2. Is it present in any other core books? RUE came after HU2 so it is more recent and applicable and lacks the net-outlaw.

Every book I am familiar with that uses auto-dodge. Some have clarified statements like HU2, but they are consistent in that they do not state to use normal dodge bonuses and when they do it is specific to the PP Bonus.

Are you talking about PP bonuses (aside from Sharpshooter) not applying to modern ranged weapons' shots?

If so: they DO stack by default. That's exactly why we have to be told (and are told) not to stack them, to override that default.

HtH might be diff since if you took it super-literally you could say "hand" not only excludes weapons, but even kicking. But if you take it to mean introduction of generic bonuses, it needs a reminder of modernWP exclusion just like PP, or any OCC bonuses.

I'm not talking about the PP based bonus that seems to allow for exceptions like Sharpshooting, and Leap/Auto-Dodge per their text. We are told what to use in the case of modern ranged weapons would be the default, and ancient weapons also say what to use.

Earlier mentions of it being "like a dodge" indicate the 'as as' is paraphrasing. Plus we're told to only use these bonuses, so this overrides a default state of including them if you consider it a dodge.

For all practical purposes though it is a type of dodge by the mechanics (you move out of the way to avoid being hit). The default state is to only use the bonuses identified to use.

This isn't a penalty to 'all defense maneuvers', it doesn't apply to things like automatic body flip, roll with impact, entangle, etc unless the GM house-rules it. The same way that a bonus to strike/parry/dodge (like a Hyperion Juicer gets) isn't a bonus to all combat maneuvers.

You've been insisting that automatic parry just falls under parry, but since you insist automatic dodge doesn't fall under dodge, why would Automatic Parry inheriting a Parry penalty lead to an Automatic Dodge inheriting a Dodge penalty?

Should have put it as "additional applicable defensive manuevers". The -10 is from a ranged attack and everyone of those additional maneuvers you listed depending on the variables involved may not even be applicable since two of them require "reach" (while you can fire a gun w/n reach it seems more likely the shooter will not be in reach) and the other actually has restrictions that can rule it out depending on the type of gun being used (can't roll with energy, autocannon, or machinegun).

I do not discount that automatic dodge is a dodge for the purposes of mechanics with regard to end results (you move out of the way to avoid being hit), what I insist is that for the purposes of bonuses they are two completely separate manuevers with their own specific bonuses to use, which is what the text establishes.

We are not told other bonuses to add (just like Attacks Per Melee doesn't mention OCC bonuses or Robot Combat) but we are not told 'nothing else', in case anybody read it that way.

When there are exceptions though, like in APM, it is what we are told to do specifically. So unless some bonus to a normal dodge also says it applies to Auto-Dodge (as in the case of PP in numerous places), then it would not.

The Leap Dodge is in a similar boat: unless we are told not to add standard dodge bonuses to it, we would still add them, even if we aren't reminded of that. We must be told to exclude them.

We are only told to use two distinct set of bonuses, that implies you do are to exclude other bonuses to it since normal/standard/regular dodge is considered a separate maneuver from various variant dodges (by all indications that is the case) so we need to actually be told to include them.

[Tor]

Every book I am familiar with that uses auto-dodge.

Except for N&SS, Robotech, RMB, Splicers, RUE and Shadow Chronicles? I don't know where/if auto-dodge is mentioned in the PF/NB/

Some have clarified statements like HU2, but they are consistent in that they do not state to use normal dodge bonuses and when they do it is specific to the PP Bonus.

You're talking about a lack unnecessary text as if it meant something.

The consistent thing we see outside HU2 is no generic rule about excluding dodge bonuses. The excepting of dodge bonuses to auto-dodge is the exception because it only happens in one game's core rules. Everywhere else it's isolated class-specific examples.

We are told what to use in the case of modern ranged weapons would be the default, and ancient weapons also say what to use.

Getting to specifics here, RUEp326 under WP Ancient Weapons mentions this:

"Bonuses that increase for that particular weapn are accumulative and are combined with the character's PP attribute, OCC, and Hand to Hand Combat skill bonuses."

This doesn't cover every possible bonus, for example:
*does the bonus to strike and parry from Robot Combat stack?
*does the bonus to parry from Athletics/Boxing stack?
*does the bonus to parry from 6th Sense or Intuitive Combat psionics stack?
*does the bonus to strike/parry from one's race stack?
*does the bonus to strike from using the 3 Eyes Magic Tattoo stack?
*does the bonus to strike/parry from my well-balanced weapon stack?
*does the bonus to strike/parry from a super-power stack?
*does the bonus to parry from a magic spell booster like Superhuman Speed or Swim as the Fish or Fly as the Eagle stack?
*does the bonus to parry from having additional limbs stack?

We do not explicitly have to be told every single example of an acceptable bonus source.

Even if they are not mentioned, they still apply.

The only exception is when we are told ONLY the examples given apply.

RUEp328 "PP attribute bonuses and Hand to Hand Combat Bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons."

Since we are not told anything else doesn't apply, this actually means that
*a Hyperion Juicer is more accurate with a rifle, because that is an OCC bonus adn it is not excluded.
*Bursters and Mind Melters are also more accurate with modern weapons, since their psychic OCC bonus to strike is not explicitly melee-exclusive and it is not a PP attribute bonus or a HtH combat bonus

I expect that a lot of GMs tend to house-rule that a bonus to strike must explicitly include modern WP to apply to them though.

For all practical purposes though it is a type of dodge by the mechanics (you move out of the way to avoid being hit).

Not seeing your point. One could argue that an entangle or defensive disarm is a 'type of parry' since you use your limb to deflect an attack. Doesn't actually make them called a parry though.

The default state is to only use the bonuses identified to use.

Wrong. You do not have to be told "you may use bonuses to back flip on a back flip". Bonuses to something apply when you do that something. Only if it said "do not apply bonuses to back flip, do a natural roll without bonuses" would you exclude them.

When you do an auto-dodge, you do a dodge, as it is a dodge, since dodge is in the name. So dodge bonuses apply until we are told they don't.

they are two completely separate manuevers with their own specific bonuses to use, which is what the text establishes.

The HU2 glossary does, the RUE glossary does not, the Crazy/Juicer OCCs (specific to them, notes in one OCC do not apply to others) in RUE do.

When there are exceptions though, like in APM, it is what we are told to do specifically.

I don't understand what you mean here. Examples of bonuses to things come to exist outside the examples given in a basic outline. Being told to add an attack from robot combat is like being told to add a dodge bonus.

We are only told to use two distinct set of bonuses, that implies you do are to exclude other bonuses to it

It doesn't, many examples have been provided where a list of examples of not inclusive of all possibilities. Perceived implications of exclusion are not the same as literal exclusion.

normal/standard/regular dodge is considered a separate maneuver from various variant dodges (by all indications that is the case)

Parry and Automatic Parry are also listed as separate maneuvers in N&SS, doesn't mean auto-parry doesn't get parry bonuses.
RUE's glossary lists 'Strike' and 'Punch' as separate glossary headings, doesn't mean a punch isn't a strike.

You can choose regular or automatic, that doesn't mean automatic versions of a class of maneuvers do not get all-inclusive bonuses.

[ShadowLogan]

Except for N&SS, Robotech, RMB, Splicers, RUE and Shadow Chronicles? I don't know where/if auto-dodge is mentioned in the PF/NB/

And which of these book lines states to specifically add non-PP dodge bonuses into auto-dodge. RUE doesn't. Shadow Chronicles doesn't. Rifts Main Book doesn't. 1E Robotech Doesn't. Macross 2 doesn't. I don't own N&SS.

Wrong. You do not have to be told "you may use bonuses to back flip on a back flip". Bonuses to something apply when you do that something. Only if it said "do not apply bonuses to back flip, do a natural roll without bonuses" would you exclude them.

When you do an auto-dodge, you do a dodge, as it is a dodge, since dodge is in the name. So dodge bonuses apply until we are told they don't.

No my statement is correct. You only use the bonuses they say to use.

It doesn't, many examples have been provided where a list of examples of not inclusive of all possibilities. Perceived implications of exclusion are not the same as literal exclusion.

And examples have been provided where Auto-Dodge (or other dodge variants) clarify that you are not supposed to add normal dodge bonuses in to auto-dodge (aside from PP). You have yet to provide an example where we are told to specifically add normal dodge bonuses to Auto-Dodge (aside from PP).

Parry and Automatic Parry are also listed as separate maneuvers in N&SS, doesn't mean auto-parry doesn't get parry bonuses.
RUE's glossary lists 'Strike' and 'Punch' as separate glossary headings, doesn't mean a punch isn't a strike.

Since punch doesn't get its own set of bonuses on a D20 roll, that is a bad example. You are comparing apples and oranges w/n the mechanics by saying Strike/Punch situation is the same as Auto-Dodge/dodge. Auto-Dodge gets its own set of bonuses on a D20 roll that are separate from a normal dodge, when you execute a punch (or kick) does not actually influence the result of a D20 roll (that is the strike bonus).

I don't know off hand about N&SS, but in Rifts (and 1E/2E RT, Mac2, HU2E, PF2E, TMNT lines) you don't get separate bonuses to automatic parry anywhere that I've seen (or recall). So I can see by the rules that +# to parry applies to both automatic parry and normal parry. However since Automatic Dodge does receive its own special bonuses (+# to automatic dodge in numerous places) it would not use normal dodge bonuses (aside from PP since we are told to). Which is in fact what we are told in numerous places. It is also pretty consistent that we don't see any rule about including the general pool of normal dodge bonuses into auto-dodge bonuses (PP being a specific normal dodge).

[Tor]

You only use the bonuses they say to use.

Something doesn't have to be +1 to hand strike to add +1 to a punch, just +1 to strike is enough. If it is generic, it applies to everything until excepted.

Body flips are the same way. Something doesn't have to be +1 to automatic body flip to add to an automatic body flip. +1 to body flip also applies. Parry is the same, +1 to automatic parry doesn't apply to non-automatic parries, but +1 to parry does apply to automatic parries.

examples have been provided where Auto-Dodge (or other dodge variants) clarify that you are not supposed to add normal dodge bonuses in to auto-dodge

Those are not examples of a general rule, they are exceptions to it.

General rules belong in the general rules section. Word under OCCs which do not exist in the general rules do not create general rules, they create exceptions to them specific to that OCC.

You have yet to provide an example where we are told to specifically add normal dodge bonuses to Auto-Dodge

Don't shift the goal posts. I am saying we add "dodge" bonuses not "normal dodge" bonuses. Automatic dodges are not normal dodges, but they are dodges.

I'll feel burdened to find this when you go ahead and tell me where it says to add parry bonuses (or "normal parry" bonuses, whatev) to the automatic parry.

Or where it says to add 'strike' or 'normal strike' bonuses to punches.

We are instructed to do this by the language itself. A bonus to dodge tells you to add it to any kind of dodge, a bonus to strike tells you to add it to any kind of strike, a bonus to parry tells you to add it to any kind of parry.

If it is modified, then this can narrow what you add it to. If a maneuver excepts a specific bonus source, that can also narrow it.

Since punch doesn't get its own set of bonuses on a D20 roll, that is a bad example.

N&SSp85 level 1 "+2 to Crane Fist Strike" level 2 "+1 to Strike"

You are comparing apples and oranges w/n the mechanics by saying Strike/Punch situation is the same as Auto-Dodge/dodge

Apples and apples, both are cases of rectangle/square grouping and distinct glossary listing.

when you execute a punch (or kick) does not actually influence the result of a D20 roll (that is the strike bonus).

What move you choose does often affect the strike bonus you get. For example World Book 25 (China 2) page 20: Dox Boxing Level 2 "+1 to strike with rear attacks". Specific strike bonuses are a lot less common than generic ones but they do exist.

you don't get separate bonuses to automatic parry anywhere that I've seen (or recall). So I can see by the rules that +# to parry applies to both automatic parry and normal parry.

The existence of a specific bonus does not mean that generic bonuses no longer apply. The existence of a + to strike with rear attacks doesn't mean that the standard strike bonus doesn't also apply to them. The existence of a bonus to strike with Crane Fist supplements, rather than replaces, the standard strike bonus.

The + to strike that the Kick Practise body hardening power gives in N&SS does not mean that other + to strike no longer apply to kicks.

since Automatic Dodge does receive its own special bonuses (+# to automatic dodge in numerous places) it would not use normal dodge bonuses (aside from PP since we are told to). Which is in fact what we are told in numerous places.

You are told to do that for Crazies and Juicers, under OCC notes that apply to them, not to Cyber-Knights or Commandoes.

It is also pretty consistent that we don't see any rule about including the general pool of normal dodge bonuses into auto-dodge bonuses

That rule exists in the very wording. An automatic dodge is a dodge. If it was called "automatic avoid" perhaps with a hint of "this is not a dodge" we wouldn't have any problem here.

[ShadowLogan]

Don't shift the goal posts. I am saying we add "dodge" bonuses not "normal dodge" bonuses. Automatic dodges are not normal dodges, but they are dodges.

I am not moving the goal post. The fact is that "normal dodge bonus" = "dodge bonus" in the text. The only time you even see "normal" dodge bonus is when automatic/variant dodge exists in some places.

The existence of a specific bonus does not mean that generic bonuses no longer apply. The existence of a + to strike with rear attacks doesn't mean that the standard strike bonus doesn't also apply to them. The existence of a bonus to strike with Crane Fist supplements, rather than replaces, the standard strike bonus.

The + to strike that the Kick Practice body hardening power gives in N&SS does not mean that other + to strike no longer apply to kicks.

I disagree. Specific bonuses exist because the maneuver works differently enough that it requires its own set of bonuses. They don't stack unless told to.

You are told to do that for Crazies and Juicers, under OCC notes that apply to them, not to Cyber-Knights or Commandoes.

Just because it is called a "dodge" in the name does not automatically mean that normal dodge bonuses apply, we can see that in Strike rolls when it comes to ranged vs melee rolls in what is applicable. We are also told that under the listing on p344 what bonuses to use: add PP Dodge Bonus and Automatic Dodge bonus. Nothing else. When it comes to stating what to use they are identical, the only difference is that the OCCs mention what not to use (which also matches up with HU2E glossary listing) which IMHO is implied by the lack of any mention.

I'm done with this topic. We are now going around in circles.

[Tor]

Bonuses exclusively to normal dodges appearing infrequently does not mean that bonuses to dodge inherently mean only to normal dodges.

The + to strike that the Kick Practice body hardening power gives in N&SS does not mean that other + to strike no longer apply to kicks.

I disagree. Specific bonuses exist because the maneuver works differently enough that it requires its own set of bonuses. They don't stack unless told to.

So the point you're at now is that bonuses to strike from hand to hand combat skill do not apply to kick attacks, even though hand to hand combat skills often provide them?

Just because it is called a "dodge" in the name does not automatically mean that normal dodge bonuses apply

A "normal dodge" bonus does not apply, but a "dodge" bonus does, until excepted.

we can see that in Strike rolls when it comes to ranged vs melee rolls in what is applicable

We don't, we are told specifically which strike bonuses are excepted in ranged combat, all others apply.

We are also told that under the listing on p344 what bonuses to use: add PP Dodge Bonus and Automatic Dodge bonus. Nothing else.

There's a difference between being told nothing else and being told "nothing else". Example lists are not all-inclusive unless stated to be so. Being told humans fight with swords and guns doesn't mean humans can't fight with axes.

[Alrik Vas]

What is difficult about this? KS got it in his head that automatic dodge was too strong, so he changed it so it was more restrictive on bonuses.

The text says a lot that can be confused, but as long as you're aware of what it means, the allocation of modifiers is apparent.

Though I'd never stack strike and parry with separate modifiers to entangle or disarm, for instance. There's nothing to suggest as of RUE that dodge bonuses from things like power armor training stack with automatic dodge anyway.

[Tor]

KS got it in his head that automatic dodge was too strong, so he changed it so it was more restrictive on bonuses.

Yup, in HU2. Much like the change to fencing in Splicers, this did not carry over to other games though.

There's nothing to suggest as of RUE that dodge bonuses from things like power armor training stack with automatic dodge anyway.

Sure there is: they add dodge bonuses, and automatic dodge is a dodge.

Tell me: is there something to suggest that Robot Combat Basic to strike/parry will stack with ancient WP skills?

RUEp326 only says WP stacks with HtH, not RCB. RUEp351 only says "hand to hand combat". Not "weapon to weapon".

RCelite parry bonuses may qualify since they don't say 'in hand to hand' but they are still not mentioned as usable under WP.

[Alrik Vas]

Not having the book on hand, I honestly couldn't find you a passage that highlights whether or not they stack, but I can say they do without it because that's how the game is played.

Look at the section on power armor combat, it will tell you bonuses stack with the pilot's hand to hand, which.is talking about their training (their h2h form, basic, expert, etc), which does stack with ancient WPs.

Automatic dodge is different in RUE, it's no longer purely a class ability and was fixed to work with other classes and hand to hand. In vehicles, as per this thread, they would apply automatic dodge, with those specific bonuses pertaining to it, and those bonuses only, in addition to their PP bonuses, but not standard dodge modifiers.

Boxing, athletics, power armor training, etc don't apply to automatic dodge.

[say652]

I only apply pp and bonuses that pacifically say autododge to AutoDodge.


What about vehicles that give Autododge.
Jump bikes say Autododge= Dodge bonuses +1.

Your argument is confusing. Especially now.

[Tor]

Not having the book on hand, I honestly couldn't find you a passage that highlights whether or not they stack, but I can say they do without it because that's how the game is played.

'the game' or 'my game' or 'most games' ? =/

Look at the section on power armor combat, it will tell you bonuses stack with the pilot's hand to hand, which.is talking about their training (their h2h form, basic, expert, etc), which does stack with ancient WPs.

It does not specify stacking with WP skills.

I am providing this as a counter-example to the argument that we must explicitly be told that we can include bonus combination for combination to be possible.

I believe WP bonuses apply when piloting power armor for the same reason I believe dodge bonuses apply to auto-dodge: because they are applicable (you are using a weapon, you are dodging) and because we're not told otherwise.

Automatic dodge is different in RUE, it's no longer purely a class ability and was fixed to work with other classes and hand to hand.

It was never purely a class ability, you could also get it with metamorphosis insect

In vehicles, as per this thread, they would apply automatic dodge, with those specific bonuses pertaining to it, and those bonuses only, in addition to their PP bonuses, but not standard dodge modifiers. Boxing, athletics, power armor training, etc don't apply to automatic dodge.

We are told they do not apply for the RUE Juicer OCC. I can see a GM house-ruling that a Phaeton, also being a Juicer, should be limited in the same way. I can also see a GM house-ruling that everyone's auto-dodge is bonus-limited according to Crazies/Juicers, to make those classes seem better.

I'm just pointing out that per the RAW, only those 2 classes have such restrictions in RUE and that people do not have to limit themselves to PP/auto dodge bonuses if they are not a Crazy/Juicer.

Jump bikes say Autododge= Dodge bonuses +1.

Yeah, JUp66 also shaped my thinking here.

"Automatic Dodge: +1 to dodge"

It doesn't say "+1 to automatic dodge" so it shouldn't apply, yet it follows a colon after auto-dodge, implying that it does apply to it. Weirdness eh? It's almost as if 'dodge' bonuses applied to all dodges!

[Alrik Vas]

They stack when it makes sense. Do whacha like.